Obama yields on smog rule in face of GOP demands (Update)

Sep 02, 2011 By JULIE PACE and DINA CAPPIELLO , Associated Press
President Barack Obama leaves the White House, Friday, Sept. 2, 2011, to board Marine One, en route to Camp David. (AP Photo/Carolyn Kaster)

(AP) -- In a dramatic reversal, President Barack Obama on Friday scrubbed a clean-air regulation that aimed to reduce health-threatening smog, yielding to bitterly protesting businesses and congressional Republicans who complained the rule would kill jobs in America's ailing economy.

Withdrawal of the proposed regulation marked the latest in a string of retreats by the president in the face of GOP opposition, and it drew quick criticism from liberals. Environmentalists, a key Obama constituency, accused him of caving to corporate polluters, and the American Lung Association threatened to restart the legal action it had begun against rules proposed by President George W. Bush.

The White House has been under heavy pressure from GOP lawmakers and major industries, which have slammed the stricter standard as an unnecessary jobs killer. The Environmental Protection Agency, whose scientific advisers favored the tighter limits, had predicted the proposed change would cost up to $90 billion a year, making it one of the most expensive environmental regulations ever imposed in the U.S.

However, the Clean Air Act bars the EPA from considering the costs of complying when setting public health standards.

Obama said his decision was made in part to reduce regulatory burdens and uncertainty at a time of rampant questions about the strength of the U.S. economy.

Underscoring the economic concerns: a new report Friday that showed the economy essentially adding no jobs in August and the unemployment rate stubbornly stuck at 9.1 percent.

The regulation would have reduced concentrations of ground-level ozone, the main ingredient in smog, a powerful lung irritant that can cause asthma and other lung ailments. Smog is created when emissions from cars, power and chemical plants, refineries and other factories mix in sunlight and heat.

Republican lawmakers, already emboldened by Obama's concessions on extending Bush-era tax cuts and his agreement to more than $1 trillion in spending reductions as the price for raising the nation's debt ceiling, had pledged to try to block the stricter smog standards as well as other EPA regulations when they returned to Washington after Labor Day.

A spokesman for House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, had muted praise for the White House Friday, saying that withdrawal of the smog regulation was a good first step toward removing obstacles that are blocking business growth.

"But it is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to stopping Washington Democrats' agenda of tax hikes, more government `stimulus' spending and increased regulations, which are all making it harder to create more American jobs," said Boehner spokesman Michael Steel.

Thomas Donohue, president of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, said the move was "an enormous victory for America's job creators, the right decision by the president and one that will help reduce the uncertainty facing businesses."

White House officials said the president's decision was not the product of industry pressure, and they said the administration would continue to fight other efforts by Republicans to dismantle the EPA's authority.

But that was little consolation for many of the president's supporters. The group MoveOn.org issued a scathing statement, saying Obama's decision was one it would have expected from his Republican predecessor.

"Many MoveOn members are wondering today how they can ever work for President Obama's re-election, or make the case for him to their neighbors, when he does something like this, after extending the Bush tax cuts for the rich and giving in to tea party demands on the debt deal," said Justin Ruben, the group's executive director.

The American Lung Association, which had sued the EPA over Bush's smog standards, said it would resume its legal fight now that Obama was essentially endorsing the weaker limit. The group had suspended its lawsuit after the Obama administration pledged to change it.

Obama's decision, in fact, mirrors one made by Bush in 2008. After EPA scientists recommended a stricter standard to better protect public health, Bush personally intervened after hearing complaints from electric utilities and other affected industries. His EPA set a standard of 75 parts per billion, stricter than one adopted in 1997, but not as strong as federal scientists said was needed to protect public health.

In March, the EPA's independent panel of scientific advisers sent a letter to the agency's administrator, Lisa Jackson, saying it was its unanimous recommendation to make the smog standards stronger and that the evidence was "sufficiently certain" that the range proposed in January 2010 under Obama would benefit public health.

But the White House, which has pledged to base decisions on science, said Friday the science behind its initial decision needed to be updated, a process already under way at EPA. The smog standard now is to be revised until 2013.

Whether Obama still occupies the White House at that point depends on the outcome of next year's presidential election.

Cass Sunstein, the head of the White House regulatory office, said changing the smog regulation now, only to have it be reconsidered again in two years, would create unnecessary uncertainty for the private sector and local governments.

The stricter limits initially proposed by Obama would have doubled the number of counties in violation. Smoggy cities such as Los Angeles and Houston would have been joined by counties in California's Napa Valley and one in Kansas with a population of 3,000. They would have had up to 20 years to meet the new limits, once EPA settled on a final number, or would have faced federal penalties.

In his statement, the president said scrapping the stronger smog standards did not reflect a weakening of his commitment to protecting public health and the environment.

"I will continue to stand with the hardworking men and women at the EPA as they strive every day to hold polluters accountable and protect our families from harmful pollution," Obama said.

Even before Friday's decision - announced as many Americans were paying more attention to their Labor Day weekend plans than the news - the White House has faced some criticism for its record on the environment. Obama abandoned a campaign pledge to set the first-ever limits on the pollution blamed for global warming, and he announced an expansion of offshore drilling before the Gulf oil spill sidelined those plans.

However, he has successfully taken other steps to reduce air pollution, such as doubling fuel efficiency standards for cars and light trucks, clamping down on pollution from power plants that blows downwind and setting the first national standard for mercury, a toxic metal, from power plants, all in the face of Republican and industry opposition.

The ground-level ozone standard is closely associated with public health - something the president said he wouldn't compromise in his regulatory review.

Explore further: Rising ocean acidity threatens sea life

3.4 /5 (12 votes)
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kaypee
3.7 / 5 (22) Sep 02, 2011
Never heard from the mouth of a free-market Republican : "If your company can't adapt to regulations, it doesn't deserve to continue to exist".
omatumr
1.3 / 5 (29) Sep 02, 2011
Thanks for the message.

Obama's propaganda campaign is coming apart at the seams today, almost as precipitously as his fall in the polls!

Did wilileak e-mail messages change his attitude?

www.physorg.com/n...ure.html

www.physorg.com/n...rnet.htm

www.physorg.com/n...ery.html

Is deception in government climate science ending?

www.youtube.com/w...IFmZpFco

http://joannenova...imeline/

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo
omatumr
1.1 / 5 (27) Sep 02, 2011
Who has been hiding, avoiding or manipulating experimental observations and data since 1971 that would have revealed the

1. Origin [Science 195, 208-209 (1977)];

www.omatumr.com/a...enon.pdf

2. Composition [Meteoritics 18, 209-222 (1983)];

www.omatumr.com/a...nces.pdf

3. Source of energy [The APEIRON Journal (2011)] that sustains life, and

http://arxiv.org/...2.1499v1

4. Controls Earths changing climate [Energy & Environ. 20, 131-144 (2009]

http://arxiv.org/pdf/0905.0704

That is the key question!

With kind regards,
Oliver K Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo
Skepticus
3.7 / 5 (25) Sep 02, 2011
True to form, ANYTHING that change the GOP devoutees' way of life is a "burden" on the country. Anybody short of breath can buy bottled air -if they can afford it-which they will happy sell. It will help the economy, you know?
Caliban
3.8 / 5 (11) Sep 02, 2011

The president however insisted that he had not diluted his commitment to the environment, despite the move on ozone, a pollutant detrimental to health, crops and trees and is the main component of smog.
"I want to be clear: my commitment and the commitment of my administration to protecting public health and the environment is unwavering," he said.


That's quite a contradiction.

I'm starting to think that Obama is the biggest "Blue-Dog" Democrat of them all. Seems more like "planned concession" than "cave in"...

ryggesogn2
2.5 / 5 (27) Sep 02, 2011
If regulations destroy the economy, people will revert to 'natural' ways to heat their houses, burning wood, coal or cow dung.
New York City welcomed the horseless carriages as they ended the horse manure dust and all the dead horses littering streets.

Science fiction is not a good basis to regulate. Which is what the 'progressives' do.
Eikka
2.3 / 5 (15) Sep 02, 2011
Never heard from the mouth of a free-market Republican : "If your company can't adapt to regulations, it doesn't deserve to continue to exist".


There's only the problem, that regulations can always be made to put any company under.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.5 / 5 (21) Sep 02, 2011
"If regulations destroy the economy..." - RyggTard

What will they burn now that Libertarian\Randite Ideology has destroyed America's economy?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (16) Sep 02, 2011
"There's only the problem, that regulations can always be made to put any company under." - Eikka

And with the gubderment fueling the likes of blackwater, it is clear that regulations can always be made to put any company over.

Cave_Man
4.2 / 5 (9) Sep 03, 2011
Why do people jump right into one sided arguments about global warming or rep v dem.

If there is any conspiracy regarding global warming i would bet its to keep emissions at a level where they aren't damaging our brains enough to notice.

Just like food manufacturers tolerate just a little poison, just enough to kill all organisms in the product but not enough to cause immediate reaction.

Our air should contain as little CO as possible forget CO2 for a second and focus on benzene and carcinogenic hydrocarbons that burning ~ANYTHING will emit. `Sure there's a background level from natural fires but Anthropogenic Carcinogen Emission (ACE - It's mine bitches) could should examined much more closely, except I believe the EPA is really corrupt or underfunded and mismanaged because they sure aren't protecting 100% of the environment. Unless your definition of environments includes fluorescing parking lots.
Objectivist
4.8 / 5 (10) Sep 03, 2011
People seem to think taking decisions like these is easy. Ideology is the goal, not the law. You can't fit ideology into reality without compromise.
Noumenal
3.7 / 5 (19) Sep 03, 2011
"People seem to think taking decisions like these is easy. Ideology is the goal, not the law. You can't fit ideology into reality without compromise." - Objectivist

It seems that the Republicans are doing a fairly good job of it, though the only compromises they make are for corporations and the super rich.
farmerpat42
3.3 / 5 (9) Sep 03, 2011
"People seem to think taking decisions like these is easy. Ideology is the goal, not the law. You can't fit ideology into reality without compromise." - Objectivist

It seems that the Republicans are doing a fairly good job of it, though the only compromises they make are for corporations and the super rich.


Warren Buffett and George Soros disagree, I'm sure.

This was a hyper-political move by the President. He 'gave in' to the GOP's demands (who was protesting anyhow? there really wasn't much said other than generic anti-EPA sentiments and a few sighs from GOP legislators saying 'really, you're going to increase costs now?') This isn't just about businesses 'having their way' - it's also about government not overreaching and turning proper research to inefficient causes (low-flush toilets, lightbulbs, biofuels - all pretty significant mandated flops).
Would you rather companies spent an extra 5% scrubbing their plants or research a totally new manufacturing method?
ryggesogn2
2.5 / 5 (18) Sep 03, 2011
"The Electric Reliability Council of Texas, operator of the state's power grid, said in a report today that a new federal environmental regulation would reduce generating capacity and put the grid "at increasing risk of emergency events," including rotating power outages.

Read more: http://www.star-t...WtZiq22V
"
That's one way to cut emissions. Stop generating power. How many people did hurricane Irene save by cutting power to millions?
kochevnik
3.1 / 5 (19) Sep 03, 2011
@ryggesogn2 "The Electric Reliability Council of Texas, operator of the state's power grid...put the grid "at increasing risk of emergency events," including rotating power outages.
This is the libertarian/Randoid deregulated dream of unfettered, feral capitalism. Unfortunately for you, the emergency shines a light on the failures of deregulation. The state's grid barely connects with other states, which means Texas can't get help from other places when it runs short of power.

In addition, state officials have few tools to stimulate construction of new power plants. In the 75% of Texas that is part of Ercot's deregulated power market, regulators can't order utilities to build more generating plants; they have to wait for power generators to build new plants voluntarily.

Greed is not the golden key to prosperity.
omatumr
1.5 / 5 (23) Sep 03, 2011
Congratulations!

Admitting that CO2 is a gaseous form of plant food - not a dangerous air pollutant - is the first step back toward reality after 40 years of government deception (1971-2011).

There is a lot of work ahead!

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (21) Sep 03, 2011
state officials have few tools to stimulate construction of new power plants.

Yes, they do. They can cut red tape, aka REGULATIONS.
Regulations ADD unnecessary costs.
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (18) Sep 03, 2011
"New Jerseys bid to develop new power plants as a way of lowering consumers electric bills suffered a severe setback yesterday, when a federal agency sided with wholesale power suppliers and the operator of the regional power grid on a COMPLEX REGULATION.

In deciding to approve changes in the arcane rules dealing with how power plants are put into service, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) appears to have established very high hurdles that may well block the states efforts to spur the building of three new power plants."
kochevnik
3 / 5 (16) Sep 03, 2011
state officials have few tools to stimulate construction of new power plants.
Yes, they do. They can cut red tape, aka REGULATIONS.Regulations ADD unnecessary costs.
Texas IS deregulated, with homeowners switching energy providers like Spark Energy. Do you have difficulties with reading comprehension?
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (14) Sep 03, 2011
TX is still subject to federal regulations.
kochevnik
3.1 / 5 (17) Sep 03, 2011
"New Jerseys bid...very high hurdles that may well block the states efforts to spur the building of three new power plants."
So says some robber baron, wanting to make another Love Canal.

TX is still subject to federal regulations.
Because many of us don't want a nuke in our backyard or an oil spill on the beach and in our food. Cry me a river, ryggesogn2.
Noumenon
4.2 / 5 (62) Sep 03, 2011
This shows that Obama is at least slightly more intelligent than the far left. Even a man rated as the most liberal senator, Obama, understands you can't have massive government regulations in a slow economy.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (16) Sep 03, 2011
Love Canal was caused by govt. The local govt FORCED Hooker Chemical to sell Love Canal and the local govt allowed houses and schools to be built over a known toxic waste dump.
The robbers were the city of Niagara that wanted the land to build houses and expand the tax base. And they had the power of LAW to force compliance.
Noumenon
4.2 / 5 (65) Sep 03, 2011
"If regulations destroy the economy..." - RyggTard

What will they burn now that Libertarian\Randite Ideology has destroyed America's economy?


Really, free market capitalism has destroyed the economy?! If the government entity of Fannie May did not exist there wouldn't have been a place to sweep sub-prime mortgages under. The mortgage industry was purposely "nudged" to loan to unqualified borrowers by do-gooder liberal democrats.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (14) Sep 03, 2011
"First Union Capital Markets Corp. and Bear, Stearns & Co. Inc. have priced a $384.6 million offering of securities backed by Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) loans - marking the industry's first public securitization of CRA loans."
"CRA loans are loans targeted to low and moderate income borrowers and neighborhoods under the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977."
"The securitization of these affordable mortgages allows us to redeploy capital back into our communities and to expand our ability to provide credit to low and moderate income individuals,"
"The $384.6 million in senior certificates are guaranteed by Freddie Mac and have an implied "AAA" rating."
https://www.wacho...1872RCRD
From OCT 1997.
kochevnik
3.1 / 5 (15) Sep 03, 2011
Love Canal was caused by govt. The local govt FORCED Hooker Chemical to sell Love Canal and the local govt allowed houses and schools to be built over a known toxic waste dump.
Who did the criminal dumping of 21,800 tons of hazardous waste and the coverup, causing all the cancers? HINT: It wasn't the government, ryggesogn2. You seem to have issues grasping cause and effect.

@Noumenon Actually the MERS registry, created by banksters, allowed feral bankers to securitize bad loans and sell one debt to many creditors: In effect legalizing grand theft. Then the whole ponzi scheme crumbled in 2008 when Russia refused to play sucker. Nice example of Randoid libertarian free market thievery, Noumenon.
socean
2.1 / 5 (7) Sep 03, 2011
I'm wondering if Obama was just a shill for corporate interests all along. He certainly took good care of the banks. He caved on the budget and taxes. An elephant in a donkey's skin?
Erscheinung
2.5 / 5 (11) Sep 03, 2011
I'm wondering if Obama was just a shill for corporate interests all along. He certainly took good care of the banks. He caved on the budget and taxes. An elephant in a donkey's skin?


No, just a typical naive idealist faced with reality.
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (11) Sep 03, 2011
"Hooker says that it chose the site because the soil characteristic of the areaimpermeable clayand the sparse population surrounding the Canal at the time made the pit outstandingly suitable for disposing of dangerous chemical wastes. The customary practices then were to pile up such wastes in unlined surface impoundments, insecure lagoons, or pits, usually on the premises of the chemical factory, or else to burn the wastes or dump them into rivers or lakes. Except for disposal into water supplies, these practices were all legal until 1980,"
"Its also worth noting here that other wastes besides these 21,800 tons from Hooker have apparently been dumped into the Canal. According to New York State officials, federal agencies, especially the Army, disposed of toxic chemical wastes there during and after World War II. The city of Niagara Falls also regularly unloaded its municipal refuse into this Hooker-owned pit."
http://reason.com...-canal/1
Jotaf
3.8 / 5 (11) Sep 03, 2011
Funny how in the USA, common people actually advocate for the economy in detriment of public health! Talk about being brainwashed. I don't care that some businesses go down, if they're slowly killing people then they must stop one way (adapt) or the other (go out of business).

People's lives are more important than money. Also you're paying indirectly anyway by having to treat all the people who get respiratory problems.

It's not surprising though, since in the US your job = your life, through the insane health care system.
ryggesogn2
2.7 / 5 (14) Sep 03, 2011
if they're slowly killing people

Where is the data?
Countries all over the world have not banned tobacco smoking and most profit from it with high taxes.
That is govt sanctioned slow death.
Where is the independent, peer reviewed EPA data justify their new standards?
kochevnik
3.2 / 5 (14) Sep 03, 2011
...these practices were all legal until 1980,"
That's why a law passed against such criminal activity. Why do you consistently back corporate sociopaths and criminals, ryggesogn2?
@Erscheinung If you look at Obama's State Dept. appointments it was obvious that he was a bankster backer even prior to taking office: http://www.counte...-happen/
if they're slowly killing people
@ryggesogn2 Where is the data?
Ok now you're just trolling. Google is your friend.
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (15) Sep 03, 2011
What criminal activity? Hooker disposed of its waste and waste from the Army and the city in a responsible way.
It was the City of Niagara that scraped off the 4 feet thick clay cap Hooker put over the waste they placed in the canal. The city was warned by Hooker and contractors that broke through the cap.
It was the city of Niagara that was criminally negligent for forcing Hooker to sell the canal and for building a school and houses on the property.
But govts can do no wrong?
kochevnik
3.1 / 5 (15) Sep 03, 2011
What criminal activity? Hooker disposed of its waste and waste from the Army and the city in a responsible way.
You are dead wrong, ryggesogn2. If you think otherwise, why don't you grab the cheap real estate at Love Canal? Thinking like your is common with New Jersey mafiosi dumping barrels of toxic waste late at night off ships, and the Casalesi crime syndicate immortalized in the movie Gomorrah. No doubt you feel the government is oppressing the poor mafiosi with socialism and regulation?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.1 / 5 (14) Sep 03, 2011
"Regulations ADD unnecessary costs." - RyggTard

The perpetual Libertarian/Randite claim that has brought America to the brink of financial collapse in large part due to the deregulation of the banking industry.

Libertarian/Randites are incapable of leaning from their past errors. Their ideology is time in time again a proven failure.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (13) Sep 03, 2011
"No doubt you feel the government is oppressing the poor mafiosi with socialism and regulation?" - Koch

On many occasions I have been told by Libertarians that on planet Libertaria there is no mafia because laws create criminals and laws have made the mafia. Deregulation will convert the illegal mob activity into legal business activity and the problem of mob criminality is solved.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (12) Sep 03, 2011
"It was the City of Niagara that scraped off the 4 feet thick clay cap Hooker put over the waste they placed in the canal. The city was warned by Hooker and contractors that broke through the cap." RyggTatd

Never happened.

I have never encountered a Libertarian/Randite who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (12) Sep 03, 2011
"Why do you consistently back corporate sociopaths and criminals, ryggesogn2?" - Koch

Because Libertarian/Randites are Pro Corporate Fascists and Psychopaths.

Have you ever found one to be otherwise?
Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (11) Sep 03, 2011
"Hooker says" - RyggTard

Criminals will say anything to exonerate themselves of their crimes.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.1 / 5 (13) Sep 03, 2011
"He caved on the budget and taxes." - socean

Congress sets the budget. Not the President.

You did know that didn't you?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (17) Sep 03, 2011
"Really, free market capitalism has destroyed the economy?" - NoumenTard

Obviously. Thanks to Libertarian free market fundamentalism American jobs have been fleeing to lower wage countries since Reagan began the process of outsourcing.

And that is why George Bush. Jr. had to redefine burger flipping as a manufacturing, to keep the appearance of a vibrant manufacturing sector in America alive.

Deregulation of the Savings and Loan industries caused the trillion dollar collapse of that industry in the late 80's just as deregulation of the banking industry during the Bush Era caused the current fiscal collapse that America is experiencing.

The deregulation of the electric power industry has brought America higher power costs and lower levels of reliability.

American corporate deregulation has been a disaster for the American people, and they have Libertarian/Randite ideology to thank for the collapse of their nation.
Objectivist
2.5 / 5 (17) Sep 03, 2011
It saddens me to see that the US is becoming more like Europe. There is enough mindless nationalism, protectionism and socialism here in Europe; why are you people so keen on making other peoples mistakes? Do you actually think that Europe would be half the economy that it is if it wasn't for US businesses? Stop your childish nonsense and realize that you're losing your most precious asset, your freedom, your liberty. Socialism is a time bomb. You'll always be losing your top minds to liberal countries where the individual isn't held back by the collective. Do you think the H-1B visa is a minor detail? Dr. Michio Kaku doesn't seem to think so, and I agree.

http://www.youtub...Y9j_CGgM
ryggesogn2
2.5 / 5 (16) Sep 03, 2011
What deregulation is Venereal Disease talking about?
What laws have been repealed? What regulatory agencies have been closed? What cabinet departments eliminated?
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (15) Sep 03, 2011
This guy has it half right:
"I dont want to suggest the state should account for an even larger share of economic activity, or try to regulate risk out of the system. Nor suggest there is not plenty of regulation around (thousands of pages of rules, guidance and interpretations continue to flood forth). But not very much of it is intelligent and effective, and for the most part that reflects the weakness of regulators, in terms of intellectual capacity and confidence, not their overbearing strength."
http://blogs.reut...y-state/
He is wrong that the regulators are weak. They have the power of the state at their disposal at all times and can and do act capriciously.

kochevnik
2.9 / 5 (18) Sep 03, 2011
It saddens me to see that the US is becoming more like Europe.

Not yet. The USA ranks dead last #47 of 47 in per-capita entitlement spending among developed nations. Life expectancy in USA ranks 42nd in the world. There exist wildly successful socialist programs, the most prominent of which developed everything you have today: science. So Objectivist, are you going to disavow yourself of all technology invented by science and ride your horse to work? That would be the Objectivist thing to do, if you are a purist.

It's funny how you keep dragging out the same, long dead arguments. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Was that your diagnosis, Objectivist?
kochevnik
2.9 / 5 (17) Sep 03, 2011
He is wrong that the regulators are weak. They have the power of the state at their disposal at all times and can and do act capriciously.
And that power is the will of the people, ryggesogn2. If you don't like it then why don't you move to your libertarian utopia, Somalia?
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (18) Sep 03, 2011
There exist wildly successful socialist programs,

Yes, that is what bankrupted the socialists states and inspired widespread riots when the state can no longer provide.

In the USA, we have elections every two years. Voters did what they could in 2010 and will continue to dismantle the USSA (United Socialist States of America) in 2012, again.
The most important decision will be made by state legislatures that will redraw district lines. A majority of these legislatures are now Republican.

So why are 'progressives' insane? Their socialism fails to provide prosperity and liberty to the people so why do they keep trying?
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (14) Sep 03, 2011
"The average EU country would need to have more than four times (434
percent) its current annual gross domestic product (GDP) in the bank
today, earning interest at the governments borrowing rate, in order to fund current policies indefinitely."
"What will happen if EU countries do not set aside these funds? Unless they reform their health and social welfare programs, they will have to meet these unfunded obligations by increasing tax burdens as the larger benefit obligations come due. Although spending averages 40 percent of GDP today:
By 2020, the average EU country will need to raise
the tax rate to 55 percent of national income to pay
promised benefits.
By 2035, a tax rate of 57 percent will be required.
By 2050, the average EU country will need more
than 60 percent of its GDP to fulfill its obligations."
http://www.ncpa.o...t319.pdf
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (16) Sep 03, 2011
In Yellowstone National Park, and probably others, it is illegal to intentionally feed the wildlife. Bears in particular. Aside from the quality of the food, the animals become dependent upon the tourists and forget how to fend for themselves. They also don't understand when the tourist runs out of food. They get very upset and attack. Sounds a lot like the riots in Europe and other socialist states when the govt stops funding or cuts back. The dependent class gets angry and attacks.
'Progressives' love the power and control of their redistributive policies, but can't understand why they the run out of wealth and the serfs revolt.
bewertow
3.1 / 5 (15) Sep 03, 2011
Enjoy your Asthma, and lung cancer America! I'm so glad I don't live in the US right now. America seems to be having an epidemic of lethal stupidity right now.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (12) Sep 03, 2011
This was over two years ago. What has improved?
"And there is a shared shock that the good times have gone. The explosion conceals a compressed desperation, the Greek psychology professor Fotini Tsalikoglou said of last month's outburst in Athens. Many young people live with the unbearable knowledge that there is no future. "
http://www.timeso...3020.ece
kochevnik
3 / 5 (14) Sep 03, 2011
By 2035, a tax rate of 57 percent will be required.
Glad you know the future so concretely. Unfortunately your grasp of the present is lacking. The USA ranking #47 of 47 is an incitement of the libertarian and feral capitalist policies in the last three decades. Yet you claim it hasn't gone far enough. Meanwhile you consider Somailia a Randoid utopia: a model for the future USA.
Enjoy your Asthma, and lung cancer America! I'm so glad I don't live in the US right now. America seems to be having an epidemic of lethal stupidity right now.
USA is very adept at exporting it's problems.
ryggesogn2
2.5 / 5 (13) Sep 03, 2011
Enjoy your Asthma, and lung cancer America! I'm so glad I don't live in the US right now. America seems to be having an epidemic of lethal stupidity right now.

So according to this: http://ec.europa....rds.htm, O3 concentration is 120 ug/m3.
1 m3 of air is about 1.2 kg at 20C and sea level.
120 e-6/1.2e 3 = 100 parts per billion. This is higher than the USA EPA standard.
How is the air in the EU?
JohnMoser
2.3 / 5 (15) Sep 03, 2011
Why do left wingnuts have to spam every article with dozens of their bizarre rants. Go away!
Noumenon
4.1 / 5 (61) Sep 03, 2011
Why do left wingnuts have to spam every article with dozens of their bizarre rants. Go away!


Most of physorg readers are young. Minds of naive mush, with fresh memories of mommy providing their security, tend to latch onto far left idealism. Plus, being a "radical" is sooo cool.
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (60) Sep 03, 2011
There exist wildly successful socialist programs, the most prominent of which developed everything you have today: science. So Objectivist, are you going to disavow yourself of all technology invented by science

Even more astonishing ignorance from Kockevnik, I see.

By far most science is funded by the private industry sector. In addition what amount the government supplies in funding, obviously originates from taxes on the private sectors success, ... a private sector that is free market capitalist in nature,.. i.e. not government controlled, not socialist. Every modern technological convience we use is existent due to the profit motive and private industry.

The motive force which drives science are the very ones which drive capitalism; competition of ideas, desire of success, fame,power, finacial profit, intellectual profit.

The reason the gov is so inefficient & inept is because no one is behind the counter making a profit.

http://en.wikiped...f_scienc
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (55) Sep 04, 2011
... link broke,... wiki "funding of science"
nononoplease
2.5 / 5 (13) Sep 04, 2011
Vendicar: "The perpetual Libertarian/Randite claim that has brought America to the brink of financial collapse in large part due to the deregulation of the banking industry."

Yes, because 100s of billions of dollars in bailouts are DEREGULATION..... Are you completely moronic or are you just pretending? In a Randian world all of those failed banks would have been allowed to fail years ago, not propped up by fucking statists like you.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (9) Sep 04, 2011
"Yes, because 100s of billions of dollars in bailouts are DEREGULATION" - NoNoNoTard

Sorry Tard... You are just jabbering mindless nonsense.

"In a Randian world all of those failed banks would have been allowed to fail years ago..." - nononoTard

Failed years before the self made crisis that caused them to fail?

Sorry Tard... You are just jabbering mindless nonsense.

What we do know is that one of the closest Disciples of Ayn Rand - Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan believed that the banking industry would never make decisions that were against their own self interest and hence decided let the free market manage the housing bubble.

His faith in Libertarian/Randite ideology brought America to the brink of a grand economic depression, that only massive publicly funded bailouts and economic stimulus converted into a recession.

Libertarian/Randite ideology has failed every time it has been employed. And in doing so it has cost Americans trillions due to economic destruction.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (13) Sep 04, 2011
"It saddens me to see that the US is becoming more like Europe." - ObjectaTard

Europe = Superior health care, Superior longevity, Higher quality of life, Lower crime rate.

Ya, I would hate for America to have such things.

Socialist Windsor Murders in the last 22 months 0.0

Capitalist Detroit (on the other side of a river) 200 Murders so far this year.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (11) Sep 04, 2011
"By far most science is funded by the private industry sector." - NoumenTard

And a principle reason that U.S. science is in decline.

Science's Worst Enemy: Corporate Funding

http://discoverma...&-C=
Vendicar_Decarian
2.7 / 5 (10) Sep 04, 2011
"Most of physorg readers are young. Minds of naive mush" - NoumenTard

Poor NoumenTard. No thinking person here is buying his Libertarian/Randite snake oil.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.7 / 5 (12) Sep 04, 2011
"In Yellowstone National Park, and probably others, it is illegal to intentionally feed the wildlife." - RyggTard

It's also illegal to take the Yellowstone wildlife home as pets.

Oh my Gawd... Da Gubderment has stolen more of yer Freedumbs.

Idiot.
ShotmanMaslo
4.3 / 5 (6) Sep 04, 2011
loling at partisan sheep politics. Instead of objectively and pragmaticaly evaluating the given issue using your own reasoning you fanaticaly prop up instant ideology brackets like sport clubs.

The recession was caused BOTH by not sufficient good regulation in some areas (continuing banking sector deregulation and repealing of safeguards since the 80s..), and bad goverment intrusions on the other hand (sub-prime mortgage housing program, government owned Fannie and Freddie, FED monetary policy mishaps..).

Blaming only capitalists and blaming only socialists is thus both wrong.
epsi00
2.7 / 5 (6) Sep 04, 2011
If the republicans were smart, they would nominate a sure loser presidential candidate. Obama is doing their job better than they would have done it themselves.
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (57) Sep 04, 2011
Socialist Windsor Murders in the last 22 months 0.0

Capitalist Detroit (on the other side of a river) 200 Murders so far this year.


Why Detroit is in the state that it's in, is due to democrats spoon feeding that segment of America, unions, welfare state, perpetual victim-hood, government dependency. Detroit is predominantly black, while Windsor is predominantly white, both with very different histories.

Windsor is not a Socialist city, except for health care,.. and many Canadians go across the border to get medical attention due to the long waiting periods. I was born and lived there.
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (57) Sep 04, 2011
the closest Disciples of Ayn Rand {..} Greenspan believed that the banking industry would never make decisions that were against their own self interest and hence decided let the free market manage the housing bubble.

..Randite ideology brought America to the brink of a grand economic depression, that only massive publicly funded bailouts and economic stimulus converted into a recession.

Libertarian/Randite ideology has failed every time it has been employed.


Absolute non-sense.

Regulations were needed only because of the existence of the gov entity fannie-mae, an entity counter to the rest of the system in not concerned about profit in terms of motive. The free-market plumbing already existed and functioned for decades,.. once you install a drain you control the flow of sub-prime mortgages. The gov entity functioned as a sink for junk the market did not want. Banks were pressured to lend to unqualified borrowers. Another social engineering experimental failure.
Noumenon
4.4 / 5 (56) Sep 04, 2011
Vendicar_Decarian, AKA "Scott Douglas", "Scott Nudds", "VD Scotty", and "VD Nudds", was one of the first specimens discovered that has become known as an internet-troll. He has a long childish history of over-blown rhetoric against the USA, Libertarians, Capitalism, and even the C programming language! Yes, even a banned troll from programming forums!

Some more over the top quotes from this failed PASM developer;

"12 more American terrorists were murdered in Iraq this weekend. More will soon follow them into death. The more dead americans in Iraq the better."

"The world needs more dead americans in Afghanastan & Iraq"

"Killing Bush now top priority of all Loyal Democrats"
Objectivist
2.5 / 5 (11) Sep 04, 2011
Not yet. The USA ranks dead last #47 of 47 in per-capita entitlement spending among developed nations. Life expectancy in USA ranks 42nd in the world. There exist wildly successful socialist programs, the most prominent of which developed everything you have today: science. So Objectivist, are you going to disavow yourself of all technology invented by science and ride your horse to work? That would be the Objectivist thing to do, if you are a purist.

First of all, let's not discuss objectivism as you clearly don't understand the first thing about it, which you have very diligently shown in your nonsensical horse example. Secondly I'm not saying that forming groups and achieving common goals is wrong. Forcing others to join your group, with or without the power of the majority, is. The problem with the socialist is that he actually thinks he's wise enough to know your best interest, and ironically he's not even wise enough to know his own best interest most of the time.
Objectivist
2.6 / 5 (8) Sep 04, 2011
It's funny how you keep dragging out the same, long dead arguments. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Was that your diagnosis, Objectivist?
Argumentum ad hominem. Typical childish way of discussing.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Sep 04, 2011
"Some more over the top quotes from this failed PASM developer;" - NoumenTard

I never developed a PASM assembler, but others did. Sun for example developed Java and Microsoft it's jit compilers for it's .Net environment. There have been others including Transmeta etc.

It was a lot of fun watching the C-Tards insisting that cross assemblers were impossible while at the same time they were being developed by at least half a dozen different developers.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.4 / 5 (9) Sep 04, 2011
"12 more American terrorists were murdered in Iraq this weekend. More will soon follow them into death. The more dead americans in Iraq the better." - NoumenTard

Don't you agree NoumenTard?

There is a price to be paid for war crimes.

"The world needs more dead americans in Afghanastan & Iraq" - NoumenTard

As true today as the day it was written.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (13) Sep 04, 2011
"Regulations were needed only because of the existence of the gov entity fannie-mae" - NoumenTard

Fannie-mae isn't a government entity. It is a private corporation.

Can't you Conservative Losers get anything right?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (14) Sep 04, 2011
"The free-market plumbing already existed and functioned for decades,.." - Noumentard

Well, since the Great Depression when it was well regulated.
The problems started when Corporations gained enough political control over the nation to begin to dictate that it be deregulated so that profits could be maximized and the public snookered by higher costs, lower quality, and made to bare the burden of risk.

"The gov entity functioned as a sink for junk the market did not want." - NoumenTard

Government didn't purchase any junk mortgages NoumenTard.

You don't have a clue as to how anything works do you? You just spout whatever nonsense comes into your head.

socean
2.3 / 5 (6) Sep 04, 2011
"He caved on the budget and taxes." - socean

Congress sets the budget. Not the President.

You did know that didn't you?


Ever heard of a VETO?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (15) Sep 04, 2011
"Detroit is predominantly black, while Windsor is predominantly white, both with very different histories." - NoumenTard

So your belief is that Detroit is a violent city in part because the citizens are primarily black.

That makes you a racist... Doesn't it?

My.. My... How TeaPublican of you.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (11) Sep 04, 2011
"Ever heard of a VETO?" - Socean

A veto would have meant that the U.S. government would have defaulted on it's loans, and that would have certainly pushed the Economy into a grand economic depression.

Thinking isn't one of your strong points is it?
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (58) Sep 04, 2011
"Regulations were needed only because of the existence of the gov entity fannie-mae" - NoumenTard

Fannie-mae isn't a government entity. It is a private corporation.

Can't you Conservative Losers get anything right?


It's traded but it was created by the government as part of the new deal to expand home ownership.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (13) Sep 04, 2011
"Windsor is not a Socialist city." - NoumenTard

It isn't? Socialized medicine, socialized education, socialized policing, Socialized housing, etc. etc. etc.

I thought you Conservative Tards were fond of calling the new deal "socialism". Well.. Windsor has it all. Except that it hasn't had any murders in almost two years while Detroit - just across the river has had close to 400 of them.

What is it about American me, me, me, Capitalism that breeds ignorance, corruption, filth, and mass murder?
Noumenon
4.2 / 5 (60) Sep 04, 2011
"Detroit is predominantly black, while Windsor is predominantly white, both with very different histories." - NoumenTard

So your belief is that Detroit is a violent city in part because the citizens are primarily black.

That makes you a racist... Doesn't it?

My.. My... How TeaPublican of you.


You're an idiot. I said "very different histories", meaning being oppressed and further oppressed by being convinced they're perpetual victims by race baiting democrats.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (11) Sep 04, 2011
"It's traded but it was created by the government." - NoumenTard

Who created it is unimportant. The fact is, that it is not a government entity, but a private corporation, contrary to your earlier claim.

Were you lying? Or were you just spectacularly ignorant about the very corporation that you were criticizing?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (12) Sep 04, 2011
"You're an idiot. I said "very different histories"" - NoumenTard

You said... And I quote...

"Detroit is predominantly black, while Windsor is predominantly white..."

Why do you think that skin color has anything to do with Detroit's murder rate NumanTard?

Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (60) Sep 04, 2011
"Windsor is not a Socialist city." - NoumenTard

It isn't? Socialized medicine, socialized education, socialized policing, Socialized housing, etc. etc. etc.

I thought you Conservative Tards were fond of calling the new deal "socialism". Well.. Windsor has it all. Except that it hasn't had any murders in almost two years while Detroit - just across the river has had close to 400 of them.


Canada is not a socialistic country, (yet), and does not owe it's economic successes to socialism. The USA also has such social engineered programs, but that does not equate to being a socialistic country, where the government controls and owns the means of production.
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (59) Sep 04, 2011
"It's traded but it was created by the government." - NoumenTard

Who created it is unimportant. The fact is, that it is not a government entity, but a private corporation, contrary to your earlier claim.

Were you lying? Or were you just spectacularly ignorant about the very corporation that you were criticizing?


It's for all Intents and Purposes a government entity. Yes, it does matter that it was created by liberal government and is still run by liberals. You don't understand the role played by Fannie Mae in the housing crash?
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (11) Sep 04, 2011
"GSEs are hybrids that combine the characteristics of public and
private organizations. Their ownership and their control are private, but the government provides them significant subsidies, including tax and regulatory advantages, and permits them to fund their activities almost as if they were part of the government. The GSEs operate in markets where their non-GSE competitors do not receive such benefits."
"Thanks to the perceived government backing, GSEs operate with
higher financial leverage and less capital than other firms in similar lines of business and thus with a significant competitive advantage in the marketplace."
"the housing GSEs are principally a vehicle for delivering
a federal subsidy rather than the source of that
subsidy."
http://www.aei.or...1604.pdf
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (13) Sep 04, 2011
Canada is not a socialistic country

Yes, it is, sorry to say. So is the USA. Does Canada have a minimum wage? It has a socialist medical system.
does not owe it's economic successes to socialism.

No socialist country owes its success to socialism. The challenge for Canada, USA, etc. is to limit the power of the state to control private property.
Cuba is trying to cut back on its socialist policies because they want to survive. Sweden ended its wealth tax to attract wealthy Swedes to return.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (14) Sep 04, 2011
RyggTard fails to mention that his quotes come from the American Enterprise Institute, a Libertarian pro-corporate propaganda organization that exists to further the goals of their corporate sponsors at the expense of the American people.
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (58) Sep 04, 2011
"You're an idiot. I said "very different histories"" - NoumenTard

You said... And I quote...

"Detroit is predominantly black, while Windsor is predominantly white..."

Why do you think that skin color has anything to do with Detroit's murder rate NumanTard?


Because, numbnutz, they have different histories. I already explained above, try reading slowing rather than tripping over yourself at the imagined opportunity of calling me a racist.

Skin colour has everything to do with it when they're treated as a second class citizens for a century, then defined as "victims" and social dependents by democrats. Statistics clearly show that crime is disproportionately committed by blacks. This IMO is not due to capitalism, which makes zero logical sense,.. but is due to liberal victim entitlement and welfare state created by the left.
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (57) Sep 04, 2011
Canada is not a socialistic country

Yes, it is, sorry to say. So is the USA. Does Canada have a minimum wage? It has a socialist medical system.
does not owe it's economic successes to socialism.

No socialist country owes its success to socialism. The challenge for Canada, USA, etc. is to limit the power of the state to control private property.


Yes, Canada and the USA have social engineered programs, but it's fundamentally different to say they are socialistic countries for the reason you just stated.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (14) Sep 04, 2011
"Canada is not a socialistic country, (yet), and does not owe it's economic successes to socialism." - NoumenTard

Canada's economic success has come from a reasonable regulatory environment which for example prevented Canadian Banks from engaging in the folly that caused the U.S. banking industry to collapse two years ago.

Canada's crime rate is lower largely because Canadians are more sociable and community oriented. Cooperation and common interests are far more valued in Canada than they are in the U.S. where rabid self interest, called "Freedom" by Libertarian/Randit's is promoted.

Criminality is far higher in the U.S. because the greater demand for individual liberty translates directly into a greater sense that violent or immoral actions are a matter of personal liberty. Further the decreased role of the state in guaranteeing a reasonable quality of life puts poor Americans in a position of having to take whatever action is necessary to provide the essentials of life themselvs
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (57) Sep 04, 2011
"12 more American terrorists were murdered in Iraq this weekend. More will soon follow them into death. The more dead americans in Iraq the better." - NoumenTard

Don't you agree NoumenTard?

There is a price to be paid for war crimes.

"The world needs more dead americans in Afghanastan & Iraq" - NoumenTard

As true today as the day it was written.



Did you try to make it seem as though I said those despicable things here? Do you realize that Canada has played a role in Afghanistan? In any case, the war effort in both Iraq and Afghanistan have been necessary. I can understand if one disagrees about Iraq,.. but to say otherwise about Afghanistan, you have to be a unthinking anti-war peta'esque dolt.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.1 / 5 (13) Sep 04, 2011
"Because, numbnutz, they have different histories." - NumenTard

Are you now trying to say that Detroit has a spectacularly high murder rate because Blacks were kept as slaves in America?

Oh Please.... Stop making excuses for your exposed Racism.

"Statistics clearly show that crime is disproportionately committed by blacks." - NumenTard

Actually, most crimes in America are committed by whites.

"This IMO is not due to capitalism, which makes zero logical sense,.." - NumenTard

And in your earlier opinion Fannie-mae was part of the U.S. government.

Your opinions are valueless.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.1 / 5 (15) Sep 04, 2011
"In any case, the war effort in both Iraq and Afghanistan have been necessary." - NumenTard

The U.S. has conducted no war in Afghanistan or Iraq. Military action there has been nothing but state terrorism by the U.S. against those nations.

Where is the declaration of war so I might read it?

"but to say otherwise about Afghanistan, you have to be a unthinking anti-war peta'esque dolt." - NumenTard.

While America has been busy murdering civilians in Afghanistan, the criminal genius behind the 911 attacks has been laughing his ass off in Pakistan.

The world has been laughing at America for the same reason.

Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (58) Sep 04, 2011
Criminality is far higher in the U.S. because the greater demand for individual liberty translates directly into a greater sense that violent or immoral actions are a matter of personal liberty.


The vast majority of crime in the USA is committed by voters of democratic left. The criminal looters and rioters we saw in London and Greece recently are all leftists, demanding their government dole not be cut as part of required austerity measures, needed because the leftists policies are bankrupting the governments. These are facts.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.5 / 5 (11) Sep 04, 2011
"Do you realize that Canada has played a role in Afghanistan?" - NumenTard

Yes, and that was a mistake.

Canada to it's great credit, refused to become part of the Coalition of Moron's who assisted the U.S. in it's campaign of war crimes in Iraq.

Can you explain to us NumenTard, why George Bush gave the Taliban of Afghanistan $50 million two months before his illegal invasion of that peaceful, sovereign nation?
Noumenon
4.5 / 5 (55) Sep 04, 2011
"Because, numbnutz, they have different histories." - NumenTard

Are you now trying to say that Detroit has a spectacularly high murder rate because Blacks were kept as slaves in America?

Oh Please.... Stop making excuses for your exposed Racism.


Obviously, if a people are oppressed, economically they are stunted for generations. They are KEPT as "victims" in the pocket of democrats, so it's ever so harder to advance. The lowest common denominator is to charge racism when clearly there is none.

"Statistics clearly show that crime is disproportionately committed by blacks." - NumenTard

Actually, most crimes in America are committed by whites.


Wrong again numbnutz, % wise of population.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (13) Sep 04, 2011
"The vast majority of crime in the USA is committed by voters of democratic left." - NumenTard

Just wait until the hangings of Republicans begin for the crime of treason against the state and nature.

"The criminal looters and rioters we saw in London and Greece recently are all leftists," - NumenTard

People don't like having their country stolen from them by corporations, with the aid of Conservative operatives.

Expect more.

MorituriMax
2 / 5 (9) Sep 04, 2011
So when Democrats push through a trillion bucks for "stimulating" us, it's peachy keen, when Republicans do anything, it's portrayed as evil. Next time just give me my cut of the slops, er... money.

Wow, good going elected representatives of we the PEOPLE.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (14) Sep 04, 2011
"So when Democrats push through a trillion bucks for "stimulating" us, it's peachy keen, when Republicans do anything, it's portrayed as evil." - MorituriTard

Republican policies pushed America into Grand Economic Depression. Democrats borrowed a trillion bucks to convert that Depression into a Recession.

TeaPublicans then tried to push American back into a depression by demanding an immediate balanced budget.

Treason, thy party is Republican.

_lumpy1954
2.3 / 5 (9) Sep 04, 2011
If we were reduced to living in caves and spider holes. I'm certain the Obama team would come up with regulations dealing with that...
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (15) Sep 04, 2011
"leftists policies are bankrupting the governments. These are facts." - NumenTard

Massive federal deficits started with Ronald Reagan, continued under George Bush Sr. and stopped under Clinton. They resumed under George Bush Jr. who ended his second term by pushing America into a second depression.

The economic failures of Europe have a similar pattern of conservative responsibility. Particularly in the U.K. due to the failed policies of Thatcher.

Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (57) Sep 04, 2011
"Do you realize that Canada has played a role in Afghanistan?" - NumenTard

Yes, and that was a mistake.


Then why not be consistent and say "The world needs more dead [Canadians] in Afghanastan & Iraq"? Idiot.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (12) Sep 04, 2011
"If we were reduced to living in caves and spider holes." - Lumpy

Homelessness in the United States has continued to remain a focus area of concern of social service providers, government officials, and policy professionals since its resurgence in the 1980s, taking on many forms and affecting many different types of individuals and families.[1] The number of homeless people further grew in the 1980s, as housing and social service cuts increased and the economy deteriorated. The United States government determined that somewhere between 200,000 and 500,000 Americans were then homeless.
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (57) Sep 04, 2011
"leftists policies are bankrupting the governments. These are facts." - NumenTard

Massive federal deficits started with Ronald Reagan, continued under George Bush Sr. and stopped under Clinton. They resumed under George Bush Jr. who ended his second term by pushing America into a second depression.

The economic failures of Europe have a similar pattern of conservative responsibility. Particularly in the U.K. due to the failed policies of Thatcher.



You conveniently left out that Obama more than quadrupled deficit spending over and above Bushes worse year,... in failed stimulus spending. You're far to irrational and dishonest to hold a discussion with,.... go away troll.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (13) Sep 04, 2011
"Then why not be consistent and say "The world needs more dead [Canadians] in Afghanastan & Iraq"? Idiot." - NumenTard

Because the Canadian Military were not involved in America's war crime in Iraq.

You are completely clueless Tard aren't you?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (15) Sep 04, 2011
"You conveniently left out that Obama more than quadrupled deficit spending over and above Bushes worse year." - NumenTard

It is the price of converting the Bush Depression 1 into Bush Recession 2.

Perhaps you would rather have a 40% unemployment rate. Most TeaPublicans I have seen want exactly that.

"in failed stimulus spending." - NumenTard

If it had failed, you would have already hocked your computer to buy groceries. Since you haven't we can be pretty much sure that it was a success.

"You're far to irrational and dishonest to hold a discussion with" - NumenTard

Translation - "I reject reality and will substitute my own Quack Tard Conservative fantasy."

Noumenon
4.4 / 5 (56) Sep 04, 2011
"Then why not be consistent and say "The world needs more dead [Canadians] in Afghanastan & Iraq"? Idiot." - NumenTard

Because the Canadian Military were not involved in America's war crime in Iraq.

You are completely clueless Tard aren't you?


Canadians were a valued ally in Afghanistan, so therefore you moronic and insulting statement should be mended.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.9 / 5 (14) Sep 04, 2011
"Canadians were a valued ally in Afghanistan," - NumenTard

And it was a mistake for Canada to be involved in that American Atrocity.

Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (57) Sep 04, 2011
"Canadians were a valued ally in Afghanistan," - NumenTard

And it was a mistake for Canada to be involved in that American Atrocity.


In your opinion, but the fact remains that they were and so logic would dictate that you should mend your previous slander,...i.e. then why not be consistent and say "The world needs more dead [Canadians] in Afghanastan"?

"American Atrocity"? All you anti-war dimwits are the same. War is bad, lets not do war [end of thought process].
Cin5456
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 04, 2011
1/6)I hate having to remind you shill-minded Republicans that it was your policy makers that started this mess in the first place, but here goes
First of all, it was deregulation of the banking industry by a Republican majority during a democratic presidents term that started the horrific sell-off of stocks in the fall of 2007. Oil market speculators rode the high of oil prices right up until they learned that a democrat would be entering the White House in Jan 2008. The market sell-off hit rock bottom the week before Obama moved into the White House, but deregulated of short sale (by a Republican-led Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)) in August 2007 (just days before the stock market started its four month plunge) ensured that oil speculators could ride their moneymakers from bottom to top, and then from top to bottom again.
That market decline occurred during the Bush administrations lame duck days, when a repentant Bush tried to cut off the subsidies to oil companies.
kochevnik
3.3 / 5 (12) Sep 04, 2011
"American Atrocity"? All you anti-war dimwits are the same. War is bad, lets not do war [end of thought process].
War is for nimrods who lack diplomacy skills. Small wonder you seem to relish it. Of course with your hollowed-out libertarian dream state being realized, there's not much else to do besides stealing oil from little countries and embracing the new mercenary economy per your oligarch's desires.
Cin5456
3.4 / 5 (8) Sep 04, 2011
2/6) Soon after Obama failed to cut off their moneymakers, oil prices rose again, but the housing market continued to decline.
It is no coincidence that high oil prices and high gasoline prices forced homeowners to choose between putting gas in their tanks so they could get to work, or paying down inflated mortgages. Working Americans chose gas in their tanks overwhelmingly. When their home loans were jeopardized a couple months later it was too late to choose their mortgage over their gas tank. The money was gone, eaten up by greedy oil companies.
The housing market bubble burst when deregulation allowed speculative bundling of low rated home loans with highly rated oil in Derivatives. When those derivatives were rated AAA by Standard and Poors, oil speculators snapped up the offered oil/home loan bundled stocks just prior to oil speculation insiders expertly planned and executed selloff prior to an expected democratic crackdown on oil futures speculation.
Cin5456
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 04, 2011
3/6) The crackdown didnt happen because Obama was furiously trying to correct mistakes made by the prior Republican administration. Remember that the first multi-trillion dollar bailout happened before Obama took office, you cant blame that on the current president. He was forced by Capitalism to bail out more free market Capitalists after he took office. Precedent had been set and he followed the wishes of the capitalist free market in bailing out Fannie and Freddie.
BTW, Standard and Poors is a wholly-owned subsidiary of McGraw Hill, the publishing conglomerate. The chairman, president, and chief executive office of McGraw Hill is Harold McGraw III, who also happens to be the chairman of the arch-conservative lobbying group known as "The Business Roundtable," which has been behind much of the conservative movements attack on liberal America.
Cin5456
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 04, 2011
4/6) Moody's, on the other hand, is a publicly-traded corporation, unlike Standard and Poors, and it's largest single shareholder, with 12% of the company's shares, is Berkshire Hathaway, Warren Buffett's company.
When Standard and Poors downgrades anything it is because they want a sell off stocks at reduced prices. They downgraded the housing/oil derivatives in 2007 to start the original recession, and now they have downgraded the USs democratic government to fuel the double dip recession. Their plan is to devalue our country until voters are forced to give in to Capitalistic greed through deregulation and corporate subsidies. (My guess is that stocks will rise sharply as soon as a Republican is elected president.)
Cin5456
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 04, 2011
5/6) BTW, You dont see any oil companies agreeing to forego their multi-billion dollar subsidies in a fit of patriotism. Of course not. They want the democratic government to fail so they can go back to buying off republican politicians with trips/parties/donation dinners. And it is no wonder that republicans want their corporate shills back in their piggy banks. They are being forced to cut out lucrative pork contracts in their home states because the government cant afford their stupid, highway-to-nowhere projects.
Cin5456
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 04, 2011
6/6) And why do multinational corporations want to cut out social security? Because it costs corporate America billions to maintain the system with employment taxes out of hard working Americans paychecks. If they dont have to pay social security funds into the system anymore, then they can lower wages. Wage earners will still get paychecks of the same amounts, but corporations will be shelling out less money for those wage earners. Lower wages = happy multinationals. They profit all around.
Cin5456
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 04, 2011
And why did Obama cave on the EPA regulations? Because he is a politician, and he knows on which side his bread is buttered. Republican fanaticism has taken hold in a majority of states. California and other important blue states are essentially crippled right now. Republican politics is about forcing his hand. If he doesnt allow a confrontation, he wins. If he can hold on to moderates he might have a fighting chance.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (11) Sep 04, 2011
First of all, it was deregulation of the banking industry

What deregulation?
"Joseph A. Petrucelli is one of the most cautious bankers in America.

In fact, Petrucelli is so cautious that the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. recently criticized his bank for not lending enough.

The FDICs negative review of East Bridgewater Savings Banks loan volume is an anomaly in todays current banking scene as lenders reel from their role in offering too many cruddy mortgage products to borrowers with weak credit.

Still, the FDIC slapped East Bridgewater Savings with a rare needs to improve rating after evaluating the bank under the Community Reinvestment Act."http://www.bizjou...ry3.html

When you socialists base you analysis upon a false premise, your results are similarly false. GIGO.
ryggesogn2
2.5 / 5 (13) Sep 04, 2011
California and other important blue states are essentially crippled right now.

Yes, because they are BLUE, aka socialist/'progressive'....
So the socialist Cin acknowledges the failure of socialism and advocates for MORE socialism? Is this not a definition of insanity?
ryggesogn2
2.7 / 5 (12) Sep 04, 2011
BTW didn't anyone notice the EU spec for ozone is higher than the USA? Where is the outcry against the EU causing unneeded deaths?
omatumr
1 / 5 (9) Sep 04, 2011
the latest in a string of retreats by the president . . .

is belated recognition of the validity of President Eisenhower's 1961 warning about the danger to our free society from a "scientific-technological elite:"

www.youtube.com/w...ld5PR4ts


The right of the people to control their government was inadvertently sold out in 1971 by secret agreements between leaders of East and West to avoid the threat of mutual nuclear annihilation by:

a.) Uniting Nations,
b.) Reducing Nationalism,
c.) Ending the Arms and Space Races,
d.) Pretending Global Climate Change is our "Common Enemy", and
e.) Adopting the Bilderberg Model of the Sun as a Stable H-Fusion Reactor.

For four decades Left-Wing/Right Wing, Republicans/Democrats, Liberals/Conservatives dismantled the world's greatest economic, scientific, democratic system to achieve these noble goals.

http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf
Cin5456
3.3 / 5 (7) Sep 04, 2011
Sorry, I meant the SEC, Security and Exhange Commission, not the banking industry.

See fellas, that's how you admit when you are in error. No name calling needed.

But why are you singling out one small bank? Did I miss some momentous news since 2009?
Cin5456
3.7 / 5 (9) Sep 04, 2011
California and other important blue states are essentially crippled right now.

Yes, because they are BLUE, aka socialist/'progressive'....
So the socialist Cin acknowledges the failure of socialism and advocates for MORE socialism? Is this not a definition of insanity?


I admit nothing of the kind. I believe in the democratic nature of our nation. The cover title of socialism is the work of rightwing capitalistic profiteers. There is such a thing as helping your fellow man, and looking out for your neighbor's well-being. Remember that Christian priciple? It is at the heart of the Republican dominated religions of this country.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (16) Sep 04, 2011
Deregulation is not the same has selectively enforcing law.
For example, the current regime refuses to prosecute black on white crime, such as Black Panthers voter intimidation.
This is what happens corrupt socialist states. Those who pay the right bribe to the right politicians are protected, unless, of course, your business is not on the approved list.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (15) Sep 04, 2011
There is such a thing as helping your fellow man, and looking out for your neighbor's well-being. Remember that Christian priciple?

How does rounding up a majority mob and stealing your neighbor's property a Christian principle?

Cin, one small bank is subject to FDIC REGULATIONS to promote the Community Reinvestment Act, as are ALL banks. What deregulation are you talking about?
Cin5456
3 / 5 (6) Sep 04, 2011
Those who pay the right bribe to the right politicians are protected, unless, of course, your business is not on the approved list.

You state my case for me. Bribe the rightwing and the rightwing protects your business.
I didn state that I meant the SEC, not the banking industry. It is probably insider/offshore speculative trading that has gotten us into this mess, and it will take new laws against offshore trading by insiders that will get us out of it. At least, that is my opinion.
Cin5456
3.6 / 5 (9) Sep 04, 2011
California and other important blue states are essentially crippled right now.

Yes, because they are BLUE, aka socialist/'progressive'....
So the socialist Cin acknowledges the failure of socialism and advocates for MORE socialism? Is this not a definition of insanity?

I don't think democracy has failed in any way. I think it has been hijacked by selfish pundits who are looking to line their pockets when big business gets their payoff.
Watch who you are calling insane. You are looking in a mirror. I thoroughly resent name calling of any kind, and because of that I refuse to debate with you any longer. Go stuff that in your mouth and swallow!
GDM
3.7 / 5 (12) Sep 04, 2011
BRAVO Cin5456! ryggesogn2 purports to be christian, yet exhibits none of the christian attributes. He thinks "progressive" is an insult, yet to be progressive is to seek progress, to IMPROVE the human condition. I'll take that moniker. I suppose his goal is to be "regressive", going back to the time of the 1880's monopolistic corporations or the 1930's Fascist states like Germany and Italy. He thinks that being "liberal" is also an insult, yet christ was also liberal, eschewing wealth in favor of uplifting the poor. You will notice that he rarely expresses his own thoughts, but merely parrots the extreme views of others. He is simply a mindless tool for those who care nothing of him, nor of any christian beliefs. If he ever decides to actually think for himself, and use some logic, perhaps he will regain some semblance of intelligence. I am doubtful, however.
omatumr
1 / 5 (10) Sep 04, 2011
I don't think democracy has failed in any way. I think it has been hijacked by selfish pundits who are looking to line their pockets when big business gets their payoff.


For 40 years (1971-2011) Left-Wing/Right Wing, Republicans/Democrats, Liberals/Conservatives have dismantled the world's greatest economic, scientific, democratic system trying to achieve an unattainable goal:

Control Earth's Constantly Changing Climate

http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (14) Sep 04, 2011
How is it Christian to force others, at the point of the gun, to be 'charitable'?

The 'liberal' Soros and Buffet don't donate their wealth to the poor but instead support and advocate for the use of the govt to force others to 'donate'.

VOLUNTARY charitable acts DO uplift the giver and the receiver.

Using state power to force wealth redistribution and entitlement dependency subjugate the all, including the poor.

If 'liberal', 'progressive' policies uplifted the poor, why aren't the poor in Detroit or other bastions of socialism prospering?

All I demand of 'progressives' is evidence to support their claims their socialist policies uplift the poor. But then, what the 'progressive' really seeks is power, not prosperity for all.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (14) Sep 04, 2011
Bribe the rightwing and the rightwing protects your business.

So the democrats are now 'rightwing'?
Buffet and Gates are 'rightwing'?
GE is 'rightwing'?
Wall Street is 'rightwing'?
It is the democratic party that has been rolling in cash from Wall Street and 'green' businesses. Enron was a big supporter of Clinton hoping to get Kyoto passed.
Those that support limited govt don't receive the corporate bribes because they want GE or GM to compete for their customers. No company is too big to fail.
The first major success of 'progressivism' was the creation of the FDA, supported by the large meat packers of the day to limit their competition.
It is easier to be a political entrepreneur than an economic entrepreneur. Power seeking politicians are more than eager to comply.

ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (14) Sep 04, 2011
"Before free enterprise, society was based upon class, status, race, caste, power, and exploitation. Free markets and property rights elevate individuals above routine barbarism and destruction to the moral stature of traders."
"Politicians, on the other hand, trade in envy and resentment, and are always assuming the fruits of entrepreneurial creativity will somehow just always be there! This illustrates a lack of moral and economic understanding. There are categorical differences between looters stealing for a living and the genuine creators of wealth. "
"Today, for instance, the anti-trust laws make every business pricing decision illegal. With arbitrary law, everything is illegal"
"Unlimited prosperity and opportunity allows every human to fulfill their deepest values in the peace of social harmony."
http://www.acton....terprise
kochevnik
2.3 / 5 (8) Sep 04, 2011
First of all, let's not discuss objectivism as you clearly don't understand the first thing about it...
Of course I know objectivism is proof of Russian superiority over uncultured American nimrods, who will compromise any principle for opportunism.
Erscheinung
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 04, 2011
Wow, this site is flooded with smelly left wingers.
kochevnik
3 / 5 (12) Sep 04, 2011
Right-ring libertarian Internet tea party trolls are paid to dumb down online conversations: http://current.co...ions.htm
knikiy
4.3 / 5 (6) Sep 04, 2011
"Before free enterprise, society was based upon class, status, race, caste, power, and exploitation. Free markets and property rights elevate individuals above routine barbarism and destruction to the moral stature of traders."


There is still no such thing as "free enterprise". The economy is a scale-free network that follows the power law "them that has, gets" Society is still based on class, status, race, caste, power, and exploitation. Is society comprised only of "moral" traders? Was Love Canal in upper NY State created by "moral traders" for the betterment of their fellow man or out of their own avarice?

ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (11) Sep 04, 2011
Love Canal was created as a safe place to store hazardous waste that was a byproduct of products people wanted and needed to buy.
Hooker knew their products needed to be stored safely and proceeded to do so by placing the material in impermeable canal with a 4' impermeable clay cap.
Had EPA standards existed at the time, they would have met those standards.
It was a greedy local city govt and greedy local teachers that wanted to build a new school and build houses to increase there tax base which forced Hooker to sell Love Canal to the city. It was the city that proceeded to disturb and disburse the toxic waste.
Hooker Chemical WAS responsible because they knew they were liable as long as they owned Love Canal and out of 'avarice' they wanted to keep that waste from causing harm to others.
It was the city that out of avarice of increasing their tax base polluted their citizens and city.
jsa09
4 / 5 (4) Sep 04, 2011
Too much labeling and not enough definition going on in these endless arguments about liberal vs democrat. Those names are just labels and do not define what the politicians actually stand for. Politicians are people and after all the compromises they make to get elected to parties that are all influenced by money then they may as well be the same party for all it means to me.

Of course, unscrupulous people will attempt to advance their personal lot at the expense of others. Regulation is supposed to limit that, but corruption bay be used to do the opposite.

Regardless of capitalist or socialist it is corruption that is the main problem. And if money talks then corruption is possible.
Cin5456
3.3 / 5 (7) Sep 04, 2011
"Politicians, on the other hand, trade in envy and resentment, and are always assuming the fruits of entrepreneurial creativity will somehow just always be there! This illustrates a lack of moral...understanding.
It is the democratic party that has been rolling in cash from Wall Street
Enron was a big supporter of Clinton hoping to get Kyoto passed.

Again you make my point about right wing politicians. They know no form of compromise, no form of actual political wisdom. They only latch onto one point that will help a certain business and sit on it. That makes them petty, government policy thieves and proves they are not deserving of the seats they hold.
Warren Buffet in 2006 made the largest every donation to charity, and last year gave away over 1.93 billion to charities.
Enron supported Kyoto because the expected to benefit from cap and trade of pollution credits from South America. Their ultimate goal was to keep the oil flowing through their accounts.
omatumr
1 / 5 (8) Sep 04, 2011
Regardless of capitalist or socialist it is corruption that is the main problem.


You are exactly right.

Eisenhower warned of the dangers to our free society in 1961 if a "scientific-technological elite" ever took control of public policy.

www.youtube.com/w...ld5PR4ts

That apparently happened in 1971, when secret agreements were made to avoid the threat of mutual nuclear annihilation by making anthropogenic climate change the world's "common enemy" and pretending Earth's heat source is a steady H-fusion reactor in order to:

a.) Unite Nations,
b.) Reduce Nationalism,
c.) End the Space and Arms Race

http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

Obama's acknowledgment that CO2 is gaseous plant food, not a dangerous air pollutant, is the step back toward reality in forty (40) years!

Unfortunately, economic recovery will be slow.

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (11) Sep 05, 2011
Warren Buffet in 2006 made the largest every donation to charity,

He still has billions and demands taxes be raised.
Why hasn't he donated ALL is wealth?
Why not follow in the footsteps of Chuck Feeney?
"In 1982, he established The Atlantic Foundation, the first and by far the largest of The Atlantic Philanthropies. In 1984, the Foundation received all of the Feeney interests in Duty Free Shoppers. At first operating anonymously, Atlantic has made grants totalling more than $5.5 billion as of December 2010."
"While he already transferred virtually all of his and his familys asset over 25 years ago, "
"Today, Mr. Feeney owns neither a home nor a car. He still travels constantlyin economy classand is well known for wearing a $15 watch."
http://www.atlant...-founder
I haven't heard Feeney advocating for higher taxes like Buffet.

If not for capitalism and free markets people like Buffet, Gates, Feeney, Carnegie, Ford could not have donated billions.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (15) Sep 05, 2011
They know no form of compromise,

So what level of evil are socialists willing to compromise? History has shown there are no limits to the compromises socialists will make: millions murdered, starved, tortured.
The present left wing Obama regime has compromised people's livelihoods keeping millions unemployed and blocking the creation and expansion of wealth creating enterprises.
They have compromised national security by alienating allies and encouraging our enemies.
Is this the kind of compromise left wing politicians support?
How about ignoring black on white violence or allowing illegal aliens to rape and kill without prosecution? I guess compromised need to be made to keep left wing voters.
Cin5456
3.7 / 5 (9) Sep 05, 2011
Atlantic Philanthropies:
"The ultimate goal is to generate sustainable scientific progress and improve health care for disadvantaged and vulnerable people. These efforts include the development of human vaccines for dengue fever, animal vaccines to prevent slaughters of herds from epidemics, establishment of advanced neurological imaging facilities and collaboration on nursing projects to tackle skills shortages."

How about that. They support health care, education, and scientific advancement. All causes that the capitalists are in favor of cutting. You found a good one.

Compromise is not in and of itself evil. Neither is it exclusively socialist or captialist.
It is the naysayers of DC who support wealth growth for the highest one percent of American capitalists. Those wealth gatherers do nothing to bring more jobs to the market place. They pocket the profits and demand more. When the market is up, who keeps the money? When the market is down, who loses their jobs?
omatumr
1.7 / 5 (9) Sep 05, 2011
Great news from NASA today!

"NASA To Provide New Observations About Solar Flares That Can Impact Earth"

www.irishweathero...026.html

Oliver
nononoplease
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 05, 2011
Vendicar: "The problems started when Corporations gained enough political control over the nation "

Well guess what, dumbass: corporations only arise because of government interference in markets, so morons like you caused that too.
Magnette
3.1 / 5 (10) Sep 05, 2011
"The vast majority of crime in the USA is committed by voters of democratic left. The criminal looters and rioters we saw in London and Greece recently are all leftists, demanding their government dole not be cut as part of required austerity measures, needed because the leftists policies are bankrupting the governments. These are facts." - Noumenon

If you're going to quote for other peoples countries please at least research the facts first.
The rioting in the UK was nothing to do with leftist reactionaries demanding money and was everything to do with the police shooting of a young guy in London.
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (16) Sep 05, 2011
everything to do with the police shooting of a young guy in London.

Really?
That may be the excuse given by the 'progressives'.
"disgruntled youth across the country have shown they're ready for a riot and whatever status and material objects their disobedience may confer on them.
""They are making a rational calculation that they can go out and do this," he says. "They see on television and the Internet people looting shops, going in and walking out with new mobile phones and flat-screen TVs. And no one is stopping them."
"The issue, sociologists say, is not that youth are unemployed. It's that they're unoccupied and therefore more likely to loiter on the streets and in shopping centers, and to get wrapped up in the madness of rebellion.

Read more: http://www.time.c...X52FlJ9Z

ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (15) Sep 05, 2011
Regulation is supposed to limit that, but corruption bay be used to do the opposite.

How is regulation supposed to limit corruption? Regulation is called positive law. It imposes the will of some politician upon most for the benefit of a select few.
Contrast this with negative law that protects everyone's individual right to property equally.


Regardless of capitalist or socialist it is corruption that is the main problem.

The Regulatory State is a corrupt system. End the Regulatory State and there will be fewer opportunities for corruption.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (16) Sep 05, 2011
"if law were restricted to protecting all persons, all
liberties, and all properties; if law were nothing more than the
organized combination of the individuals right to self defense; if
law were the obstacle, the check, the punisher of all oppression
and plunderis it likely that we citizens would then argue much
about the extent of the franchise?"
"imagine that this fatal principle has
been introduced: Under the pretense of organization, regulation,
protection, or encouragement, the law takes property from
one person and gives it to another; the law takes the wealth of all
and gives it to a fewwhether farmers, manufacturers,
shipowners, artists, or comedians. Under these circumstances,
then certainly every class will aspire to grasp the law, and logically so. "
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from
its true purposethat it may violate property instead of protecting
itthen everyone will want to participate in making the law,"
Basiat, The Law.
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (17) Sep 05, 2011
"But how is this legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply.
See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them,
and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if
the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing
what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime.
Then abolish this law without delay, for it is not only an evil
itself, but also it is a fertile source for further evils because it
invites reprisals. If such a lawwhich may be an isolated case
is not abolished immediately, it will spread, multiply, and
develop into a system."
The Law.

This is now our system JSA. The system is a corruption of law.

"The presentday delusion is an attempt to enrich everyone at the expense of everyone else;"
Present day was over 150 years ago. The US did not heed Bastiat's warnings.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (16) Sep 05, 2011
"Here I encounter the most popular fallacy of our times. It
is not considered sufficient that the law should be just; it must be
philanthropic. Nor is it sufficient that the law should guarantee
to every citizen the free and inoffensive use of his faculties for
physical, intellectual, and moral self-improvement. Instead, it is
demanded that the law should directly extend welfare, education,
and morality throughout the nation.
This is the seductive lure of socialism."
"These two uses of the law are in direct contradiction to each
other. We must choose between them. A citizen cannot at the
same time be free and not free."
The Law.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.6 / 5 (14) Sep 05, 2011
"corporations only arise because of government interference in markets..." - nononoTard

While it is true that governments license corporations, it isn't the licensing of corporations that has been a problem. It is the inadequate regulation of their actions, size and influence.

You ignore the obvious and focus on the infantile, because the obvious illustrates yet another failure of the Libertarian/Randite ideology.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (13) Sep 05, 2011
"The rioting in the UK was nothing to do with leftist reactionaries demanding money and was everything to do with the police shooting of a young guy in London." - Magnette

American Conservatives and Libertarians left reality land a long, long time ago.

I have never encountered one who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (14) Sep 05, 2011
Walter E. Williams, George Mason economist:
"If Bastiat were alive today, he would be disappointed with
our failure to keep the law within its proper domain. Over the
course of a century and a half, we have created more than 50,000
laws. Most of them permit the state to initiate violence against
those who have not initiated violence against others. These laws
range from anti-smoking laws for private establishments and
Social Security contributions to licensure laws and minimum
wage laws. In each case, the person who resolutely demands and
defends his God-given right to be left alone can ultimately suffer
death at the hands of our government."
"Americans share an awesome burden and moral responsibility. If liberty dies in the United States, it is destined to die everywhere."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (13) Sep 05, 2011
""To be honest, I think at the moment its mainly to do with looting. A majority of people are just looting to loot, with no reason, just because they want to do it. Simple as that, said Lopez.

Lopez said she does not condone the violence, but understands and shares the pent up anger many of her young neighbors feel about a lack of job opportunities and cuts in government funding to youth services. "
"But there are pockets of our society that are not just broken, but frankly sick."
http://www.voanew...248.html
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (13) Sep 05, 2011
"But locals and commentators warn that high levels of long-term and youth unemployment and cuts in services like youth centers in places like Haringey the borough where Tottenham sits are creating a tinder box for unrest. "
"Prospects for the unemployed especially those with limited qualifications are unlikely to improve soon, meaning conditions are ripe for a repeat of Saturday's unrest in areas with high unemployment and dense populations.

Britain's economy has barely grown over the past 9 months, and economists polled by Reuters see growth of just 1.3 percent for 2011 as a whole, rising to 2.0 percent in 2012."
http://www.msnbc....LNo7zOSo
kochevnik
3 / 5 (14) Sep 05, 2011
Those wealth gatherers do nothing to bring more jobs to the market place. They pocket the profits and demand more. When the market is up, who keeps the money? When the market is down, who loses their jobs?
Put simply, greed is not an admirable attribute and hoarding hurts the economy. Yet these are the two most cherished tenants of Randoid objectivism. I'm sure our resident paid shills will reply with something irrelevant.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (12) Sep 05, 2011
Yet these are the two most cherished tenants of Randoid objectivism.

BS.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (14) Sep 05, 2011


"It is incredible that so many of our public servants have to pay a private organization just for the privilege to work in the public sector.

And despite the resulting budget deficits and a public that demands greater accountability from their government, Big Labor operatives have made their position clear: No concessions, no compromise and no surrender.

Read more: http://dailycalle...X5HkcNki
"

Again you make my point about right wing politicians. They know no form of compromise, no form of actual political wisdom.

But left wing labor unions are wise and compromise?
Cin5456
4.5 / 5 (8) Sep 05, 2011
Unions have been negotiating for better wages and benefits for their members for over 50 years at the bargaining table with hardline capitalists. It is wage earners who keep factories and other job-rich organizations going, you know. Without unions women would still be working for pennies on the dollar like they do in China. Without unions, scholarship collectives would not allow for retraining of out-of-work middle management from the last few decades.
Unions do understand compromise and they understand the selfish profit-minded corporation collectives that lobby Washington with millions of dollars they collected from the pockets of the employees by lowering wages and benefits like job related health insurance.
I have never been a member of a union. I do think they made fantastic strides in helping mine workers and textile workers get better hours and help with the health care costs incurred because their jobs affected their health adversely.
Yes, they are wise in their own way.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Sep 05, 2011
"12 more American terrorists were murdered in Iraq this weekend. More will soon follow them into death. The more dead americans in Iraq the better." - NoumenTard

Don't you agree NoumenTard?

There is a price to be paid for war crimes.

"The world needs more dead americans in Afghanastan & Iraq" - NoumenTard

As true today as the day it was written.
And I agree that Canada needs it's own 9/11 to perhaps relieve some naive cannuks of their insipid complacency. Alas, no tall buildings in Canada. Only igloos.
Cin5456
5 / 5 (6) Sep 05, 2011
Lest I forget, I think unions that organized police, fire and education services are essential to keeping our country safe, and keeping our children in school. Without public schools, the majority of Americans would be illiterate dependents living on the streets and in perpetual slums. I think the benefits of our police and fire departments speak for themselves. Recent layoffs of police around the country are what make riots more of a threat, and keep lawlessness climbing.
omatumr
1 / 5 (11) Sep 05, 2011
NASA video recordings of changes in the Sun - from its quietest period in years to the activity marking the beginning of solar cycle 24

www.irishweathero...26.html/

Will provide observations needed to determine the validity of:

a.) The Standard Solar Model (SSM) of Sun
b.) Model of CO2 Global Warming (AGW)

Many fields of science astronomy, astrophysics, climatology, cosmology, nuclear, particle, planetary and solar sciences have been seriously compromised [1] since it was decided on 1971 [2] that Earths heat source is a steady H-fusion reactor (SSM model) that cannot cause climate change (AGW model).

1. Neutron Repulsion, The APEIRON Journal, in press (2011)
http://arxiv.org/...2.1499v1

2. Deep Roots of Climategate (2011)
http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Sep 05, 2011
Unions have been negotiating for better wages and benefits for their members for over 50 years at the bargaining table with hardline capitalists.

City, state, and federal governments are hardline capitalists?
FDR did not support unionization of govt employees and neither did the union bosses at the time.
Without public schools, the majority of Americans would be illiterate dependents living on the streets and in perpetual slums

That is happening now WITH union, govt schools.
Socialist Sweden has a voucher system. Students can take their voucher to dozens of schools.
Why don't university professors unionize?

The police union in MA forces cities to provide police details when any work is performed on a road. The electric company must pay for a police officer to direct traffic if they are parked on the side of a road for some maintenance. In most other parts of the county, a min. wage flagman does the job.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Sep 05, 2011
"Gov. Deval L. Patrick said he is forging ahead with plans to chip away at one of the most closely
defended police perks in Massachusetts: paid details at roadside construction sites.
Patrick said his administration is working on new regulations that would open the door to replacing some of the police
details by hiring civilians, equipping them with orange safety vests and flags and training them to direct traffic,
especially on secondary roads."
"No state law mandates that police officers protect workers at road construction sites, but the practice has become
commonplace and been fiercely protected by police unions. Some communities have labor contracts requiring that
police staff construction sites."
http://www.massch...tion.pdf
Cin5456
4.3 / 5 (6) Sep 05, 2011
University professors do have unions.
"The UAW is the union of choice for more than 40,000 workers at Americas colleges and universities."

Anyone who wants more dead people ought to be publicly whipped. It is fanatics like jihadists and generals who declared their intent to wipe out whole populations by any means who have no regard for the value of humanity. Where has the value of life gone in todays world? Peoples lives are becoming less valued all over the world. We hardly blink when only ten men are killed on any given day in the war, but if 26 die in one incident we get all up in arms. Why not be concerned for those ten, or those five, or that one who was a father, a brother, and a husband and who died needlessly?
knikiy
5 / 5 (7) Sep 05, 2011
What was this article about again? Oh yeah, so to sum up, without government regulation, corporations will kill for profit, even though there are humans comprising those very same corps. Even though they pay lip service to the sanctity of life.
So the kneejerk "government as evil" slogan doesn't doesn't necessarily hold water, at least nothing thats drinkable.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (12) Sep 05, 2011
What unions hath wrought:
"Even as Boston police officials laid off cadets and cut popular units like the mounted patrol, some police officers managed to dramatically boost their paychecks last year, in a few cases to more than a quarter of a million dollars."
"Some of the officers earned extra cash because contracts require that officers working a detail or testifying in court be paid for a minimum of four hours. In one case, a lieutenant was paid for four hours after 15 minutes of case preparation.

All of the officers benefited from a retroactive, one-time salary boost under a new police contract. And all worked a lot of overtime."
"The salaries are excessive, Police Commissioner Edward F. Davis said in an interview. Clearly the average person on the street does not make this kind of money. Were completely aware that this is a difficult topic to discuss, but its a function of a system thats been in place for decades."
http://www.boston...rticles/
Cin5456
2.7 / 5 (7) Sep 05, 2011
So, the Boston system is an old-boy-network that has been in place since the 1800's. I can understand how there might be need for reform in that case. But the wanton layoffs that are taking place in California are putting our cities and citizens at risk.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (13) Sep 05, 2011
So, the Boston system is an old-boy-network that has been in place since the 1800's. I can understand how there might be need for reform in that case. But the wanton layoffs that are taking place in California are putting our cities and citizens at risk.

The 'progressives' brought this upon themselves. It is poetic justice Brown is now governor. He can now try to fix the problems he caused the first time he was governor.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (12) Sep 05, 2011
Tales from the Regulatory State:

"As with a previous set of raids in 2009, Henry Juszkiewicz, CEO of Nashville-based Gibson, said at a news conference last week that authorities wouldn't even tell him what the heck they were investigating, but they have suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers may be "illegal" under some U.N. edict."
"During the 2009 Gibson raid, authorities seized guitars and "ebony fingerboard blanks from Madagascar." The feds are still holding the wood seized at that time, though no criminal charges have ever been filed."
"Each day of non-production costs the firm a million dollars.

Maybe he can make it up with some layoffs."
http://www.lvrj.c...373.html

FrankHerbert
2.9 / 5 (10) Sep 05, 2011
That's an example of Mercantilism not Socialism, marjon.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (12) Sep 05, 2011
That's an example of Mercantilism not Socialism, marjon.

Mercantilism is govt control of private property, aka socialism.
GDM
3.2 / 5 (11) Sep 05, 2011
CIN5456: don't bother trying to reason with ryggesogn2, or worry about what "scores" he and his many alter egos give to people of reason. To paraphrase a line from an old tv show: What ryggesogn2 says is unimportant." He produces nothing but spam, no intelligent thought there. He is oblivious to history and spouts only the propaganda that he thinks will buy him respect at the table of his keepers. Poor fool. I only hope he doesn't go off in some easily predictable psycopathic rage against humanity like some many of his ilk have done in the past.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (12) Sep 05, 2011
"It is to be pointed out, however, that protectionism,
socialism, and communism are basically the same plant in three
different stages of its growth. All that can be said is that legal
plunder is more visible in communism because it is complete plunder; and in protectionism because the plunder is limited to
specific groups and industries.* Thus it follows that, of the three
systems, socialism is the vaguest, the most indecisive, and, consequently, the most sincere stage of development."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf

"What is the best, time-proved method to make sure resources such as wood lots are not overutilized, threatening their ability to regenerate? Private ownership. Private owners have a vested interest in making sure the resources will still be there for their children and grandchildren, which is why private timber companies tend to re-plant their acreage."
http://www.lvrj.c...373.html
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (7) Sep 05, 2011
This is cool:

"And that is why, despite all the political obstacles, Europe appears to be inching closer to a more centralized fiscal union that would eventually turn the euro zone into something resembling a United States of Europe."
http://www.nytime...ion.html

-Perhaps they will ask canada to join? No wait - canada will soon belong to a Greater America...
http://en.wikiped...an_Union

-Guess we'll need a new national anthem. With smaller words. C'est dommage.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (5) Sep 05, 2011
We will need to put 'eh?' after every verse. At least they will rhyme. Eh?
http://www.youtub...Vspgy184
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (13) Sep 05, 2011
"No longer were privileges to be limited to the few, as under the old mercantilism. No, now privileges and favors were for all. The Age of Democratized Privilege had arrived. The new mercantilism was born. And unfortunately, it now permeates the Western world.

More and more people are dependent upon governmental spending of one form or another for significant portions of their income. And what government does not furnish directly, it provides indirectly through its industrial regulations, price and production controls and occupational licensing procedures. "
http://www.fff.or...291b.asp (1991)

Sounds like socialism: state control of private property.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (12) Sep 05, 2011
Is this an example of 'left wing compromise'?
"They've got a war, they got a war with us and there's only going to be one winner. It's going to be the workers of Michigan, and America. We're going to win that war," Jimmy Hoffa Jr. said to a heavily union crowd.

"President Obama, this is your army. We are ready to march. Let's take these son of bitches out and give America back to an America where we belong," Hoffa added."
http://www.realcl...out.html

A cornered, wounded animal is the most dangerous.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (5) Sep 05, 2011
But canada will still be making valuuabel contributions to future space programs, eh?
http://www.youtub...e=relmfu

-Which is good to know. Unless the queen says they cant do it eh? C'est dommage to that eh? 'In space no one can hear you cut one', because youve got a space suit on, eh? They must have anti-fart systems in those things so's you dont assfixiate yourself in there, just in case eh?
Skepticus
4.7 / 5 (6) Sep 06, 2011
My eys glazed over all the heated exchanges of policies, rehtorics and ideologies here. It is most apparent that a so deep schism are dividing the once great country. Americans have lost the fortitude, drive for sacrifice and hard work that made USA the superpower during and after WW2. For the good of the country is so much spitting worthless saliva these days. They are burrowing their heads in denials or along party lines. Wake up, America, you have so much potential. Don't waste it and go the way of Rome.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (11) Sep 06, 2011
"Is this an example of 'left wing compromise'?" - RyggTard

The left has compromised far too much, and the result has been the near fiscal bankruptcy due to Borrow and Spend Republicanism.

Now it's time to start crushing the skulls of the Republican Vermin who are responsible.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.1 / 5 (9) Sep 06, 2011
"We will need to put 'eh?' after every verse." - Otto

What Otto fails to realize is that one of the reasons why Canadians have built one of the greatest socialist nation in earth is that they recognize and laugh at their own foibles.

Bill and Doug after all Canadian Parodies done by Canadians for Canadian consumption.

Here is another...

http://www.youtub...=related
Vendicar_Decarian
2.5 / 5 (8) Sep 06, 2011
Yes.. RyggTard and his Libertarian/Randite handlers believe that Privileges and favors are only for the wealthy. The working class is not worthy of them according to his ideology.

"No longer were privileges to be limited to the few, as under the old mercantilism. No, now privileges and favors were for all. The Age of Democratized Privilege had arrived. The new mercantilism was born. And unfortunately, it now permeates the Western world." - RyggTard
Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (8) Sep 06, 2011
"Perhaps they will ask canada to join? No wait - canada will soon belong to a Greater America..." - Otto

After the breakup of the United States, it is most likely the Liberal states bordering Canada will join in an economic union with Canada, and largely adopt Canadian Values and attitudes that the generally echo today.

As the remainder of America continues to it's transformation into a desert, they will form an economic union with the great state of Mexico.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Sep 06, 2011
"More and more people are dependent upon governmental spending of one form or another for significant portions of their income." - RyggTard

The growing reliance on Government stimulus to the economy started with the Reagan Borrow and Spend Revolution that pumped trillions of borrowed cash into the American Economy.

The habituation has continued and even accelerated with each Borrow and Spend Republican president since then.

The latest round of borrow and spend Economic Stimulus by Obama is unfortunate in that it magnifies the habituation but nevertheless is essential as the alternative is not only a bankrupt nation, but a bankrupt nation that has entered a 30 year long Grand Economic Depression caused by the Failed Economic policies of it's Republican predecessors, with particular emphasis on George (Failure) Bush Jr.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.7 / 5 (7) Sep 06, 2011
As is self evident from the following quote, Libertarian/Randites are strongly in favor of offshoring American jobs and feel it is the proper path of Free Market Capitalism.

Given the current state of U.S. unemployment, many Americans might consider his ideology to be pure treason.

I agree.

"It is to be pointed out, however, that protectionism,
socialism, and communism are basically the same plant in three
different stages of its growth." - RyggTard
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Sep 06, 2011
"Without public schools, the majority of Americans would be illiterate dependents living on the streets and in perpetual slums" - CN5456

The perfect source of cheap labor for American Corporations.

Coincidence?
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Sep 06, 2011
"And I agree that Canada needs it's own 9/11 to perhaps relieve some naive cannuks of their insipid complacency." - Otto

That day is not likely to happen since Canadians have behaved respectfully and constructively on the international stage, unlike the failed American state.

Further the reaction of Canadians to a 911 was rational, seeing it as a matter for international policing rather than a pretext for the commission of war crimes.

Like most non Americans did, Canadians watched Colin Powell's presentation at the U.N. and laughed at the conjecture, lack of evidence and the cartoons.

Americans were swayed by the same "evidence".

We attribute this to the failure of the American system of education, and to the Republican la-la-land reality-free vision of the world.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Sep 06, 2011
Even more incredible that so many public servants fail to realize that the remuneration they receive from their jobs is a result of hard fought negotiations by their unionized brothers and sisters.

There are those who seek to benefit from the work of unions without the burden of having to support unions.

These people remind me of Libertarians who seek to benefit from the services of Government without the burden of having to support the government services they consume.

"It is incredible that so many of our public servants have to pay a private organization just for the privilege to work in the public sector." - RyggTard
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Sep 06, 2011
"without government regulation, corporations will kill for profit, " - Kinky

Correct
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Sep 06, 2011
Yes, it is sad that England followed the U.S. Republicans into the sewer. Fortunately they didn't go in quite so far under Thatcher.

"Britain's economy has barely grown over the past 9 months, and economists polled by Reuters see growth of just 1.3 percent for 2011 as a whole, rising to 2.0 percent in 2012." - RyggTard
Vendicar_Decarian
2.7 / 5 (7) Sep 06, 2011
If Bastiat were alive today he would have recognized the spectacular failure of his ideology and converted to Liberal Catholicism.

"If Bastiat were alive today, he would be disappointed with
our failure to keep the law within its proper domain." - RyggTard
Vendicar_Decarian
2.7 / 5 (7) Sep 06, 2011
I blame Conservative Soccer Hooligans and their ilk who feel that government is illegitimate and that they are free to do as they wish.

"To be honest, I think at the moment its mainly to do with looting. A majority of people are just looting to loot, with no reason, just because they want to do it." - RyggTard
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 06, 2011
The continuous drip, drip, drip of VD yet he still won't defend socialism. Why won't he try?
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Sep 06, 2011
"Instead, it is demanded that the law should directly extend welfare, education, and morality throughout the nation." - RyggTard

It is called Civilization.

If you don't like it, then please return to your Libertarian/Randite home land of Somalia and live a bountiful life of plenty free from what you refer to as the excesses of government.

There are many paths to social collapse. Libertarian/Randism is optimally fast, Destroying the American state in just over 30 years.

Magnette
4.2 / 5 (5) Sep 06, 2011
everything to do with the police shooting of a young guy in London.

Really?
That may be the excuse given by the 'progressives'.
Read more: http://www.time.c...X52FlJ9Z



Wow, you've really had a brain drain and think everything is to do with 'progressives'!
Bad news for you, the catalyst that started the riots as I previously mentioned was the shooting of the guy in Tottenham, London.

Yes, there was copy-cat rioting by people who just decided that, in sufficient numbers, they could loot and possibly get away with it but that had nothing whatsoever to do with financial status. Some of the criminals charged with looting were in a fairly comfortable financial position so it just comes down to pure human greed and the want of something for nothing.
When you've had police fighting with looters 5m from your front garden then you tend to take notice of whats happening.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.1 / 5 (9) Sep 06, 2011
"The continuous drip, drip, drip of VD yet he still won't defend socialism" - RyggTard

Unlike your ilk, I'm not into "ism's" Tard boy. They are intellectually constraining, and appeal primarily to small minds and shallow thinkers.

Can you provide a consistent, rational explanation for us as to why over the last 30 years Free Market Conservatives in America
have bankrupted their own nation while Socialist China is poised to become the worlds primary economic superpower?

Socialism works. American Free Market Capitalism is a proven failure. To the extent that Europe has tried to emulate the U.S. it too has failed, although not nearly as badly.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Sep 06, 2011
"Wow, you've really had a brain drain and think everything is to do with 'progressives'!" - magnette

It is possible that RyggTard doesn't actually believe the nonsense he posts. But absolutely feels that his lies are essential for the advancement of his Libertarian/randite Ideology.

I have never encountered a Libertarian who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.5 / 5 (4) Sep 06, 2011
After the breakup of the United States, it is most likely the Liberal states bordering Canada will join in an economic union with Canada, and largely adopt Canadian Values and attitudes that the generally echo today.
Unions are getting larger not smaller. North America will soon be one big happy thing, just like Europa. Where will the capital be? Detroit?
Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (8) Sep 06, 2011
The law is a corrupt system. End all laws and there will be fewer opportunities to commit crimes.

"The Regulatory State is a corrupt system. End the Regulatory State and there will be fewer opportunities for corruption." - RyggTard
Magnette
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 06, 2011
This is cool:

"And that is why, despite all the political obstacles, Europe appears to be inching closer to a more centralized fiscal union that would eventually turn the euro zone into something resembling a United States of Europe."
http://www.nytime...ion.html

-Guess we'll need a new national anthem. With smaller words. C'est dommage.


In that case I'm really happy to say that we still have, for the forseeable future, the good old British Sterling and no nasty Euros' here.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (9) Sep 06, 2011
"Unions are getting larger not smaller." - Otto

Otto... Fail...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/S3SyC2rZ-BI/AAAAAAAAMvQ/YrcVFFSlgKc/s400/unions1.jpg
Magnette
4.3 / 5 (6) Sep 06, 2011
Yes, it is sad that England followed the U.S. Republicans into the sewer. Fortunately they didn't go in quite so far under Thatcher.

"Britain's economy has barely grown over the past 9 months, and economists polled by Reuters see growth of just 1.3 percent for 2011 as a whole, rising to 2.0 percent in 2012." - RyggTard


I agree, it is sad.

It's also sad that Ryggy missed reading one important word in his quote...growth.
It may be growth in small percentages but at least it's not in the negative. If we can manage even a small amount of growth in these austere times then I guess we're doing something right.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (12) Sep 06, 2011
I must say that watching you TeaTards bringing your nation to be edge of financial oblivion due to your innate refusal to compromise was the entertainment highlight of my year.

What is the next disaster that you Ideological fools have planned for your Encore?

"So what level of evil are socialists willing to compromise? " - RyggTard

ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Sep 06, 2011
the want of something for nothing.

That is the motto of the 'progressive' is it not?
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (10) Sep 06, 2011
Demanding the benefits of government while demanding that they paying for them is "pure evil" and "unmitigated theft", is part of the regressive Libertarian/Randite ideology, not progressive ideology.

It is the very basis of Borrow and Spend Republicanism economics.

"the want of something for nothing. That is the motto of the "progressive" is it not?" - RyggTard
GSwift7
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 06, 2011
If physorg came back and deleted all the off-topic comments, this thread would be nearly wiped out. wow, get a grip guys.

So, back on topic:

The move by the President might be more clever than it seems on the surface.

By backing off from the stricter standard, it takes away an easy target for the GOP/Teaparty to fight him over. It may hurt him a little in the short term, but the election is still more than a year away. In the long term it takes amunition away from his enemies.

This also makes it easier to re-enact the higher standard after the election, should Obama win another term. If he leaves the high standard in place and there is a successful move against it from the GOP, then it's very difficult to raise the standard back up later.

The final reason this might be a logical decision is that sometimes you need to pick your battles. The EPA has a lot on its plate and faces budget cuts. Can't do everything when money is limited. Gotta prioritize.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (10) Sep 06, 2011
It is also true that EPA regulations have initial implementation costs with savings of money and lives coming later.

Those initial costs may be seen as lower in priority given the current Republican created Economic Crisis that the U.S. is experiencing.
omatumr
1 / 5 (8) Sep 06, 2011
My eyes glazed over all the heated exchanges of policies, rhetorics and ideologies. It is most apparent that so deep schisms are dividing the once great country. Americans have lost the fortitude, drive for sacrifice and hard work that made USA the superpower during and after WW2. For the good of the country is so much spitting worthless saliva these days. They are burrowing their heads in denials or along party lines. Wake up, America, you have so much potential. Don't waste it and go the way of Rome.


I share your concerns and regret damage to social institutions as reality replaces dogma.

Society must accept that their existence, their past and their future - as well as those of Al Gore, Barack Obama, and the Bilderberg group - have been and will be decided by nuclear forces [1-3] these "leaders" ignored.

1. http://dl.dropbox...5079.pdf
2. http://arxiv.org/...2.1499v1
3. http://journalofc...102.html

Oliver K. Manuel
GSwift7
3.5 / 5 (6) Sep 06, 2011
It is also true that EPA regulations have initial implementation costs with savings of money and lives coming later.


True, but I'll re-state the need for priorties. If you only have a certain amount of money to spend, it is best to spend it where you'll get the biggest result. I would say that increased smog standards are probably not the most cost effective demand right now. The existing standards here in the US are way better than where we were 50 years ago. We did just increase vehicle mileage standards, which is way more significant. Slow but steady progress isn't a bad way to go. The money and time not spent on smog might save more lives and money if it is spent on heart disease and/or healthy food standards, for example. Smog is far from the biggest health risk in the US right now.
GSwift7
4.2 / 5 (5) Sep 06, 2011
continued:

If we re-frame the discussion in terms of where the money is most needed, it changes the picture greatly. What do we need most? Cleaner water, safer oil wells, safer mining, forest preservation, wetlands preservation, endangered species, medical care for at-risk children, federal highway maintenance, safer nuclear power, more renewable energy, descrimination in the workplace, highschool dropout rates in minorities, teenage pregnancy, cancer research, theoretical science, foreign aid, homeland security, etc. There are more places to spend money than there is money to spend right now. I don't think the above mentioned lawsuit by the ALA is productive either. Nobody wins but the lawyers there.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Sep 06, 2011
"California Republicans and Democrats alike said they would prefer their leaders stick to their guns when it comes to core issues rejecting tax hikes for Republicans, avoiding cuts to Social Security and Medicare for Democrats even if concessions are needed to tame the federal deficit or lure the other side out of its ideological corner.

Republicans preferred the hard-line stance, 50% to 35%, and Democrats concurred by an even larger ratio, 57% to 32%."
http://www.latime...74.story
Those democrats really want to compromise!
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Sep 06, 2011
I would say that increased smog standards are probably not the most cost effective demand right now.

EPA does not care about cost effectiveness, by law.
Demanding the benefits of government

We are not receiving the benefits of govt: protection of private property. What we are getting from govt is plunder.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (10) Sep 06, 2011
Yadda, Yadda, Yadda... Just more mindless Libertarian Claptrap and nonsense from RyggTard, the nonsense king.

"What we are getting from govt is plunder." - RyggTard
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (6) Sep 06, 2011
The continuous drip, drip, drip of VD yet he still won't defend socialism. Why won't he try?
Hey let me try eh? In socialism everybody gets a BMW but theyre all black.

Hey I was thinking that canada was like the back bacon of countries eh? See they had this continent and they carved a pretty decent country out of it, but they had all these bits and pieces left over.

'What do we do with this big chunk up here eh?' they said. 'Well lets fry it up and see what it tastes like.' somebody said. So they named it canada, after the bacon of the same name eh?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 06, 2011
Yawn
GSwift7
2.6 / 5 (5) Sep 06, 2011
I don't mean to take sides in the socialism versus capitalism debate, but what does ozone regulation have to do with socialism? It's just another regulation, like saying that you can't dump radioactive waste in your back yard, though way less important to anybody except the most extreme political pundits. If you are arguing about this, then you are probably a member of a very small minority point of view. The decision was made by the President. It's done. He's a Democrat and liberal. He is advised by the top people money can buy. It's not about what is best in an election year, especially in an economic slump. When things get serious, the agendas go out the window. Special interest groups only get what they want when other things aren't more important, and elections and budgets are more important.
GSwift7
3.7 / 5 (6) Sep 06, 2011
I usually vehemently disagree with vendicar, so when you see me agreeing with him and giving him 5/5 multiple times, you should know that you are way out in tin foil hat land. Just saying.

To VD:

It's nice to see that someone here is willing to set aside thier agenda and just talk straight. I'm surprised and glad to see that it is you fora change. lol. Just joking. I'm with you on this one. They are going all Foxnews/Limbaugh on us. :(
GSwift7
3.8 / 5 (4) Sep 06, 2011
to Otto:

What the heck was that last post supposed to mean? Have you lost your meds or is English your second language? I'm seriously clueless about what that post was trying to say. Do you mean Kevin Bacon? That might make more sense. :(

I'll refrain from rating that comment until you translate it into English.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (9) Sep 06, 2011
what does ozone regulation have to do with socialism?

That depends if you believe all regulatory agencies don't have a political agenda.
History has shown that when the 'progressives' can't get their way legislatively, they will resort to fiat or court order.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (9) Sep 06, 2011
Swifty, why do you suppose any regulatory agency is smarter and knows more than the people and property they are regulating?
Once you start down the slippery slope of 'preventive' law, nothing is off the table. This is socialism.
Now if the govt acted as a true, third party judge of property violations, then the only participants are the offender and the offended. The govt would not consider benefit or injury to society. A power plant that pollutes your air would need to compensate your injury or shut down.
Love Canal has been raised many times. Hooker Chemical sealed its toxic waste in a safe manner long before EPA regulations.
When industry groups can bend the ear of politicians that their industry and their pollution are critical for national economic power (not individual prosperity), then they can be allowed to pollute and injure in for the sake of perceived national or societal benefit.
Howhot
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 06, 2011
I don't know why but, suddenly, I want to discuss declining I.Q. LEVELS with a blue ribbon SENATE SUB-COMMITTEE!
GSwift7
5 / 5 (4) Sep 07, 2011
Swifty, why do you suppose any regulatory agency is smarter and knows more than the people and property they are regulating?


Straw man. I didn't say that, and I don't think that. Argue with or against what I actually said.

Any political ethos can become a slippery slope. Extremes without checks and balances are bad in any form. Is there a form of government that hasn't been corrupted? As long as humans have a part, there will be corrupt humans, and corruption of the systems. It's about people, and everyone has weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

to howhot:

I strangely find myself agreeing with you now too. The above comments are surely as productive as the average committee.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Sep 07, 2011
"Swifty, why do you suppose any regulatory agency is smarter and knows more than the people and property they are regulating?: - RyggTard

You mean like dust bowl farmers who plowed their fields until their soil blew away in the wind?

Ya, Regulators often know how to manage a property better than the property owners.

How many homes do you think would be exploding around the nation if there were no regulations covering the piping of natural gas underground and through homes?

One need only go back to the era of goal gas lighting to see how prominent those were.

In addition RyggTard, your focus is myopic. Property owners are fixated exclusively on their own property, while regulators often have a wider vision.

A property owner may plan to construct a housing project in a manner that maximizes the number of homes in order to maximize it's profits.

A regulator on the other hand may have other interests such as protecting adjacent properties, ensuring that there are catch ponds cont.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Sep 07, 2011
catch ponds that will prevent excessive quantities of water from entering into the adjacent sewer systems, etc.

Regulators may have even wider interests such as requiring homes be constructed to certain stanards of strength or efficiency.

Homes in near the coasts may be required to have their roofs bolted to their walls and the walls bolted to the house foundation to prevent the entire home from being lifted and blown to pieces during a hurricane or tornado.

Other standards may require safe rooms of sufficient strength as to survive a tornado and give families refuge should one develop.

What you propose is a society of individual bacteria without any central command and control.

Society on the other hand has evolved as would a higher level organism where cell growth and activity is in large part controlled by increasingly sophisticated and distant regulatory mechanisms, ultimately terminating in a brain (something you lack), that governs the individual cells cont.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.1 / 5 (8) Sep 07, 2011
brain that governs individual cells and provides for their command and control for the benefit of the entire cell society or organism.
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (10) Sep 07, 2011
I didn't say that, and

Yes you did. You said, "it's just another regulation". Implying what's the big deal. Implying you prefer and accept the Regulatory State.

I see VD, like a good little socialist, believes people are mindless bacteria needing central planning and control.

TheGhostofOtto1923
2.4 / 5 (5) Sep 07, 2011
to Otto:

What the heck was that last post supposed to mean? Have you lost your meds or is English your second language? I'm seriously clueless about what that post was trying to say. Do you mean Kevin Bacon? That might make more sense. :(

I'll refrain from rating that comment until you translate it into English.
I'm like having issues with the canadian VD and his attitudes about the country which is enabling his attitudes to exist eh? Im sure itll pass like a case of molson soon enough.
http://www.youtub...Jqd2h0Yg

-Notice how the amerrikin saves the day?

Oh hey - I see the problem. I was like speaking canadian eh?
http://www.youtub...t2c5cDfo

GSwift7
4 / 5 (4) Sep 07, 2011
Swifty, why do you suppose any regulatory agency is smarter and knows more than the people and property they are regulating?

Straw man. I didn't say that, and I don't think that. Argue with or against what I actually said


Yes you did. You said, "it's just another regulation". Implying what's the big deal. Implying you prefer and accept the Regulatory State


No, you are taking my comment out of context and you added a bunch of garbage of your own. Now you are claiming that you know what I'm thinking and I do not know what I am thinking.

Here's what I said:

what does ozone regulation have to do with socialism? It's just another regulation, like saying that you can't dump radioactive waste in your back yard


So, I'm a socialist nazi because I don't want nuclear waste in my yard? Wow. I'm speechless.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Sep 07, 2011
Like you said, it is just another regulation. Why not regulate away all ozone and all other pollution. It's just another regulation.
GSwift7
3.8 / 5 (5) Sep 07, 2011
Back on topic:

A technical point about ozone. Ozone itself is only a mild irritant, even in relatively high concentrations. It's used in water treatment, fruit and grain processing, pest control, etc. It's way more environmentally friendly than alternatives like bleach or caustic soda. I wonder if the above planned regulations made exception for the use of ozone in those cases where it is the lesser of evils.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 07, 2011
A topic is the philosophy of positive law, aka regulation.
If the 'experts', EPA, can be superseded by executive order, why waste money on the EPA?
ryggesogn2
3 / 5 (10) Sep 07, 2011
". According to a recent study by the Political and Economic Risk Consultancy, for instance, Hong Kong has the world's least regulated business environment, which helps it attract capital from around the world. The United Nations ranks Hong Kong as one of the places in the world with the highest levels of human development based on life expectancy, literacy, education and high standards of living. That doesn't sound all that bad for workers."
http://www.realcl...236.html
Vendicar_Decarian
2.5 / 5 (8) Sep 07, 2011
"I see VD, like a good little socialist, believes people are mindless bacteria needing central planning and control." - RyggTard

Yes, of course. Central planning and control is essential if society is to act in a rational manner.

Your irrationality proves that quite explicitly.
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (9) Sep 07, 2011
"Clearly then, the conscience of the social democrats cannot
permit persons to have any liberty because they believe that the
nature of mankind tends always toward every kind of degradation
and disaster. Thus, of course, the legislators must make
plans for the people in order to save them from themselves."
"The organizers
maintain that society, when left undirected, rushes headlong to
its inevitable destruction because the instincts of the people are
so perverse."
"Apparently, then, the legislators and the organizers have received from Heaven an intelligence and virtue that place them beyond and above mankind"
"the inhabitants of the nation are to remain completely passive... the people should have no prejudices, no affections, and no desires except those authorized by the legislator."
"Socialists Want Forced Conformity"
"The Socialists Despise Mankind"
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf
Howhot
4 / 5 (4) Sep 07, 2011
R2, I can't stand biting my tongue any longer. When America's forefathers established the constitution and gave the citizens their bill of rights, no where did it establish an economic system. The government provides the base -- the LEVEL PLAYING FIELD -- on which capitalism work. Regulation is part of that process.

You can not have capitalism without regulation. It leads to abuse and just as monarchism lead to abuses of the peasants, so will capitalism abuse what it can. Since the industrial revolution (Ford, Chrysler...) and the invention of Multi-national corporations capitalism has changed, and so has the role of government(s) internationally.

Your anti socialism tweets are meaningless when compared to massive wealth and power moved and possesed by the multinationals. It's not big government that controls your life my friend. See the Government is "We the People".

ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (9) Sep 07, 2011
Regulation is part of that process.

The US Constitution LIMITS the power of the federal govt. They were called ENUMERATED POWERS.
The Constitution WAS an economic document in that it opened free trade among the states.
"No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State."

You can not have capitalism without regulation.

Of course not. Market participants always regulate the market.

What multinational power? Any piss ant govt, like Venezuela, can nationalize the assets of any company. What is the company going to do about it? Hire an army and invade?

The government provides the base -- the LEVEL PLAYING FIELD -- on which capitalism work

How does leveling the playing field make capitalism work? Should the govt level the NFL playing field?
The govt should protect the property rights of all, equally, and not play favorites, like bailing out GM or giving tax money to bankrupt solar companies.
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (9) Sep 07, 2011
What does 'level the playing field' mean?

Should the govt punish success and reward failure? Should the govt force Apple to 'share' its technology so other companies can have some success too?

That's what the railroad association did in Atlas Shrugged. The owners agreed not to compete with each other. What happened? Same thing that happened to AMTRAK, lousy and limited service.
Howhot
2.8 / 5 (4) Sep 07, 2011
R2, if your a citizen of the USA, then you should realize that in the "We the People" includes you as well as me. In other words, it means that WE have to work together, WE are the government. That is why we vote!

That's from high school civics. So no you are wrong that "Market participants regulate the market". They do not; "We the People" do.

And let me add, Thank God because if citizen politicians did not regulate, America would be one large giant strip mine.



Howhot
4.2 / 5 (5) Sep 07, 2011
R2, you know exactly what I mean by "Level the playing field" and regulation. It's like rules in sports. The game could not be played without them, hate them as much as we do at times. I can not think of a simpler way of putting it. It's the fact that "We the People" make the rules that makes our Democracy so vibrant.

Without it, what's left is anarchy rule, feudalism, or totalitarianism. None of those are good choices for you or me.
GSwift7
5 / 5 (3) Sep 08, 2011
It's not big government that controls your life my friend. See the Government is "We the People


Yes!!

I take pride in paying my taxes and being part of OUR society. It is reasonable to expect the people in charge to spen that tax money responsibly, and it is reasonable to expect some of them to be corrupt. That is reality. In fact, I want a few wolves in my pasture along with all us sheep. When we catch the wolves eating sheep, we can throw them in jial. That's the laws of OUR community. I'm proud to be part of it.
GSwift7
5 / 5 (2) Sep 08, 2011
OH GOSH!! the world is broken. Now I'm agreeing with hohot. lol.

Good lord, this isn't complicated. Get off your soapbox and use your beain guys.
GSwift7
5 / 5 (2) Sep 08, 2011
Either way, if you want to espouse your extreme political views then go find a political site to spam. Try Fox or MSNBC. Three's plenty of people there who will be happy to talk about your problems.

This story is about ozone. The real issue is smog.
Howhot
5 / 5 (3) Sep 08, 2011
G7; what did I say something wrong? No, I agree with you my man! It's a damn smog regulation at a time when there is more need for industry. However if industry abuses that lack of regulation; we can put it back on very quickly.

That said, in my home town, we had a bad ozone problem; it was not solved until EPA regulations mandated our city clean it's air. It was expensive, but the corporations paid it, because it was a clean city with good workers.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.7 / 5 (7) Sep 08, 2011
"Should the govt punish success and reward failure?" - RyggTard

It already does by punishing successful criminals who commit many crimes to a greater extent than less successful criminals who commit fewer crimes.

Libertarians hold that crimes such as drug dealing, prostitution, drunk driving, child seduction etc. are victimless crimes which should be decriminalized.

Why should the evil gubderment punish a successful prostitute or a successful child molester more than an occasional one?
Vendicar_Decarian
2.7 / 5 (7) Sep 08, 2011
"Should the govt force Apple to 'share' its technology so other companies can have some success too?" - RyggTard

Apple doesn't produce any technology. It purchases off the rack.

However, should Apple grow sufficiently large that competition against it is not practically possible, then yes, it should lose copyright and patent protections that it is been granted - as a privilege - by the state.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (7) Sep 08, 2011
"That's what the railroad association did in Atlas Shrugged." - RyggTard

But it's not what Kirk and Spock did on planet Organia.

Didn't Mudd's women prove that honest values transcends naked American Capitalism?
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Sep 08, 2011
"The US Constitution LIMITS the power of the federal govt." - RyggTard

The U.S. Constitution doesn't apply to China. Neither has the angry Sky Pixie ordained that the U.S. constitution apply to anyone.

It is a Statist document after all.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Sep 08, 2011
"The Constitution WAS an economic document in that it opened free trade among the states." - RyggTard

I see so it is the fault of the U.S. founding fathers, and not Libertarians for the fact that corporations have moved America's manufacturing and technology sector to second and third world nations, thereby impoverishing the American People.

Well, someone had to take the blame for America's collapse, and it can't be Business can it?
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Sep 08, 2011
"What multinational power?" - RyggTard

Airbus
American Express
Apple
Bacardi
BASF
Bayer
Bic
Boeing
Bridgestone
BP
Canon
Caterpiller
Celestia
Dell
ExxonMobil
Faber-Castell
General Electric
Haliburton
IBM
hatachi
HP
Intel
Isuzu
Konami
Kingston Tech.
LG
Lexmark
Mattel
Microsoft
Mobil
Michelin
Namco
nestle
Nike
Nintendo
NewsCorp
Pfizer
Philips
Procter and Gamble
Reebok
Samsung
Sega
SanDisk
Sony Music
Toyota
Unilever
Wal-Mart

A list a tiny minority of the holders of multinational power.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Sep 08, 2011
"How does leveling the playing field make capitalism work? " - RyggTard

NFL Team A, 100,000 players take the field.
NFL Team B, 14 players take the field.

Who wins the game?

If A wins it absorbs the 14 players from team B.

Who wins the next game?

Libertarian/Randites call that an equal match and great competition.

It is fair they claim because both teams are using the same ball, and playing on the same field.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Sep 08, 2011
"The govt should protect the property rights of all, equally, and not play favorites, like bailing out GM.." - RyggTard

We sympathize, but value the million jobs saved at GM more than you Libertarian\Randites do.

True, those GM workers could have just been put out onto the street to die in the gutter (no welfare or unemployment assistance in Libertarian land).... But thinking, rational people wouldn't like the stench of the millions of rotting bodies.

"I love the smell of rotting corpses in the morning." - Libertairan\Randit.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Sep 08, 2011
"Why not regulate away all ozone and all other pollution." - RyggTard

Step by step, that is exactly what the EPA has been doing - to the benefit of all Americans.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Sep 08, 2011
"History has shown that when the 'progressives' can't get their way legislatively, they will resort to fiat or court order." - RyggTard

In other words those who oppose "progressives" are often found to have supported policies that courts find to be illegal, unconstitutional, etc.

Well done Progressives....

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Sep 08, 2011
"Clearly then, the conscience of the social democrats cannot
permit persons to have any liberty..." - RyggTard

You mean Liberals haven't championed freedom of assembly, freedom to unionize, freedom to have an abortion, freedom from being murdered by terrorists funded by White House Republicans, etc. etc. etc.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Sep 08, 2011
"R2, if your a citizen of the USA, then you should realize that in the "We the People" includes you as well as me. In other words, it means that WE have to work together, WE are the government. That is why we vote!" - HowHot

RyggTard believes that voting is "pure unmitigated evil", and that the only true way of voting is with dollars in a free unregulated market in which Mexican labor is free to cross the border and complete against American Labor without control or limitation.

Anything less - according to Libertarians is pure slavery and Mob rule.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Sep 08, 2011
"So, I'm a socialist nazi because I don't want nuclear waste in my yard?" - GSwift

Under Libertarian rule, you are free to prevent nuclear waste from being stored in your back yard, but not your neighbours back yard. And if they are paid a billion bucks to store that waste and then blow it all on hookers and child prostitutes (Free enterprise in Libertarian land), and the waste then leaks onto your property, then oh well. That's life.

You will be able to sue your neighbour for all he is worth of course, but since he is worth nothing, you will have to exercise some good oll self reliance and get rid of that nuclear contamination yourself.

Besides.... Libertarians tell me that a little Nuclear Waste in your diet is good for you. One of them even offered to eat a gram of plutonium if I paid him well enough - and managed to find a gram of plutonium that da evil, thieving, gubderment hadn't stolen from it's rightful owner.

20% of the American population are now Libertarian
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Sep 08, 2011
are now libertarian by my estimate. The more Libertarians there are, the more America becomes detached from reality and the faster it has declined into oblivion.

Libertarianism/Randism = Pure Economic Poison.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (8) Sep 08, 2011
Hottie, should the govt step in and 'level the playing field' for Yahoo?
"Why is a company that owns some of the world's most widely used online services unable to gain traction among Web surfers, advertisers and investors? Can the company that rode the Internet boom ever again be where the cool kids go?"

I see from the above, Hottie did not define 'level the playing field'. What are the limits? I hear the private, Kelo property condemned in New Haven, CT, that was turned over to a private developer, with millions in federal funding, now sits, leveled, empty. At least if the lady's house was there, the city could be collecting some taxes. Now, only leveled property. Is this how you define 'level the playing field'?
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Sep 08, 2011
And Switfy, this discussion does pertain to ozone regulation. You apparently trust the regulators. Why?
And why can the president, by executive order, stop a regulation?
The system of positive law is broken and will always be subject to corruption and influence peddling.
And that is what the 'progressives' want, control.
Magnette
5 / 5 (3) Sep 08, 2011

"And why can the president, by executive order, stop a regulation?"
- Ryggs

That last one must really cause you some sleepless nights as it's a lose/lose situation for your ideals.
Firstly the idea that's it's regulated goes against your apparent beliefs and then the fact that the president can vetoe it must be a real deal clincher.

Yes, it's a bad move for your president to take that stance as it has been a proven step to take in the battle against smog. Other countries have instigated controls and the levels have dropped quite considerably.

It may be an economic argument because of the costs to industry but all that requires, in it's most simplistic form, is to roll out the changes but at a slower pace to match the economy
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Sep 08, 2011
"An 1895 New York law limited bakery employees to working 10 hours a day and 60 hours a week. Ostensibly, this was health and safety legislation; actually, it was rent-seeking by large, unionized bakeries and the unions. Corporate bakeries supported the legislation, which burdened their small, family-owned competitors. The bakers union hoped to suppress the small, non-unionized bakeries that depended on flexible work schedules.

One such was owned by Joseph Lochner, who challenged the law, prevailing in the Supreme Court, 5 to 4. The majority said clean and wholesome bread does not depend on limiting workers hours: Workers are in no sense wards of the state, and there is no evidence that baking is an especially unhealthful profession, so the law was an unconstitutional interference with an unenumerated right of individuals, the liberty of contract."
http://www.washin...ory.html
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Sep 08, 2011
the fact that the president can vetoe it must be a real deal clincher.

That should bother everyone who believes in the rule of law and not the rule of kings.

"The main dissent radiated progressivisms statism and paternalism: Government may limit working hours lest workers damage their physical and mental capacity to serve the State, and to provide for those dependent upon them. In another dissent, ultimately famous and hugely influential, Oliver Wendell Holmes, whose judicial restraint often expressed his dogmatic majoritarianism, defended the right of a majority to embody their opinions in law. He said liberty should not be construed to prevent the natural outcome of a dominant opinion.
http://www.washin...ory.html
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Sep 08, 2011
"Princetons president, Woodrow Wilson, agreed, dismissing the inalienable rights of the individual as nonsense inimical to governments ability to efficiently work its progressive will. So much for the idea that one of the Constitutions primary purposes is the protection of individual rights against majority tyranny.

Progressives celebrated Holmess gift to government of almost untrammeled police powers."
http://www.washin...ory.html
GSwift7
4 / 5 (4) Sep 08, 2011
And Switfy, this discussion does pertain to ozone regulation. You apparently trust the regulators. Why?

Because this is just an extension of the ozone regs we already have, and they seem to be working?

Also, because we have a system of checks and balances which, in combination with a 4 year election cycle allows any bad regulation to be undone if needed.

I don't really care about the argument you guys are having about progressivism, but I think the history of the progressive movement is interesting. Present day progressives are quite different from progressives of other generations. There have been many different movements with vastly different ideology that are all called progressive. Cool stuff.

If not for regulations, we would still have slaves, and don't try to tell me that I can't sell my daughter.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (8) Sep 08, 2011
If not for regulations, we would still have slaves,

That is BS.

just an extension of the ozone regs we already have,

Why not ban ozone outright? Or CO2 production? What is to stop the EPA?
BTW, the telephone tax passed to fund the Spanish American War was repealed just a few years ago.
Why to you think a new president or Congress will undo bad regulations quickly?
You should care about 'progressivism' as it is fascism. Corporations get Congress to pass laws to restrict competition. You pay more for products and have fewer choices. But that's the socialist way.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (8) Sep 08, 2011
What multinational power?
"Please respect FT.com's ts&cs and copyright policy which allow you to: share links; copy content for personal use; & redistribute limited extracts. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights or use this link to reference the article - http://www.ft.com...XPUIAlXc

Coca-Cola executives have been furious at what they say are government attempts to stigmatise their products as unhealthy in a similar way to tobacco and object to the financial cost of the tax. The company has invested 260m in France since the middle of the last decade. "
http://www.ft.com...XPTa2DL6
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (9) Sep 08, 2011
"Then, Hirsh quoted a former Treasury official who argued that DoddFrank would ultimately encourage bank consolidations by creating more barriers to entry for new, smaller banks.

The Treasury official warned that DoddFrank would create this risk by imposing new capital charges that will create barriers to entry for new firms, especially in swaps and other derivatives, while at the same time permitting giant bank holding companies to continue controlling most of what they were before.

Read more: http://dailycalle...XPXL3g9I
"
What a surprise, 'progressive' regulations limit competition.
lengould100
3 / 5 (6) Sep 09, 2011
under heavy pressure from GOP lawmakers and major industries
That's all one needs to know. Any worker voting for GOP is completely brainwashed.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (8) Sep 09, 2011
under heavy pressure from GOP lawmakers and major industries
That's all one needs to know. Any worker voting for GOP is completely brainwashed.

The president is a 'liberal' democrat who provided the CEO of GE a place of honor for his 'jobs' campaign speech.
Noumenal
3.3 / 5 (7) Sep 09, 2011
"Then, Hirsh quoted a former Treasury official who argued that DoddFrank would ultimately encourage bank consolidations by creating more barriers to entry for new, smaller banks.

The Treasury official warned that DoddFrank would create this risk by imposing new capital charges that will create barriers to entry for new firms, especially in swaps and other derivatives, while at the same time permitting giant bank holding companies to continue controlling most of what they were before.

"
What a surprise, 'progressive' regulations limit competition.


They also limit companies doing evil things. Companies are out for profit, they are sociopathic about how they achieve that profit. Civil society and government prevent business from undermining the social fabric of society limiting the extent a business can exploit a person's labour. Further more, many people don't hold the libertarian's opinion about human nature that is FORCED onto them.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (8) Sep 09, 2011
Companies are out for profit, they are sociopathic about how they achieve that profit.

Companies must persuade people to buy their products to to work for them.
The first companies that move into a poor area may hire workers at low wages and may be able to 'exploit' those workers until a competitor starts offering better wages and working conditions.
This is documented, no opinions needed.
Is it exploitation when a company moves to an area and hires people that are not working and have little or no opportunity to work? Sounds like a win-win.
Boeing has maxed out production of 787's in WA and wants to expand to SC. Unions are using govt power to prevent interstate commerce and keeping people in SC from working. Who is exploiting here, aided and abetted by the 'progressive' Regulatory State?
Howhot
5 / 5 (3) Sep 09, 2011
Well, GD R2. You must really hate the working Americans! Unions must be your arch-nemesis. All unions are is a group of people that are using collective bargaining to better their negotiating position. What is wrong with that?
American needs more unions just to keep the Cooperation/Labor honest.
Howhot
4 / 5 (4) Sep 09, 2011
R2, show many anywhere in the US Constitution the mention of "Progressive" or even "regulatory state" in the original documents,. You can not. Nor will you find "Tea Party". No, that document does not have the word "Capitalism" in it either. Your all bitching and moaning about the level playing the US Constitution provide, but it could be a socialist economy as easy as it could be fascist. The constitutions voice on how the economy is designed is not it's strong point.

That said, it is very strong on how the people have power. We are governed by us, "We the People". So if "WE" make rules to that effect how a company rips the top off a mountain (killing everything) to benefit a just a few people, that is just the way it should be.

That is America. That is what WE are all about.

Howhot
4 / 5 (4) Sep 09, 2011
R2; the bottom line is this; Regulation is part of our governance . It is our burden of the governed to express our ideas to our representative.

Anyway, I await your reply.
omatumr
1 / 5 (8) Sep 09, 2011
To bring a glimpse of reality back to world leaders and the citizens they have frightened,

Watch the space weather perspective of Earth and other planets orbiting close to the Sun:

www.physorg.com/n...m67.html

The planets, represented by colored (dots), are outward from the Sun:

-1- Mercury (gold)
-2- Venus (green)
-3- Earth (yellow)
-4- and Mars (red)

Moving through the constantly changing web of space weather!

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo
Howhot
5 / 5 (1) Sep 10, 2011
@Omatumr; do you think this is a GOOD TIME to BUY GOLD?
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (11) Sep 10, 2011
All unions are is a group of people that are using collective bargaining to better their negotiating position.

Really? Why do some states have to force people to join a union if they were so great for the worker?

The Constitution is a document that LIMITS the power of the govt regardless of what 'the people' or 'progressives' want. If the power is not in the Constitution there is a way to amend it. But socialists like Teddy, Wilson and FDR knew they would never succeed so they had to co-op the court system.
Now courts find things in the Constitution that are not there and were never intended to be there.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (11) Sep 10, 2011
"And as part of the deal, the Energy Department agreed that if the company went bust, private investors could recoup their losses before the government. Republicans in Congress called the investment "a bad bet" and said it "put taxpayers at unnecessary risk."

One of the lead private investors in Solyndra was an Oklahoma billionaire who served as an Obama "bundler," raising money during the 2008 presidential campaign.

The bundler, George Kaiser, has declined to comment. His firm, Argonaut Ventures and its affiliates have been the single largest shareholder of Solyndra, according to SEC filings and other records. The company holds 39 percent of Solyndra's parent company, bankruptcy records filed Tuesday show. "
http://abcnews.go...p;page=3
Ken Lay sucked up to Clinton trying to get favorable deals for natural gas. Better sell GE short.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (11) Sep 10, 2011
"What??!! How could this be? Didn't the sophisticated econometric models the Obama administration used to justify its job numbers predict this? Don't central planners know which firms are winners and which are losers? Oh well, let's throw another half-trillion dollars at this stuff anyway. Why not? It's only other people's money."
http://www.facebo...eeonline
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (12) Sep 10, 2011
All unions are is a group of people that are using collective bargaining to better their negotiating position.

"On Wednesday in Longview, hundreds of International Longshore and Warehouse Union members, upset over EGTs decision to hire workers from a different union, stormed the facility and blocked train tracks there, escalating a longstanding labor dispute.

By Thursday, union workers walked off the job at four other Washington ports, including one in Seattle, and a federal judge was warning the ILWU to stand down. The ILWU contends that it did not call for the work stoppage.

Read more: http://dailycalle...XYHZSMUc
Collective bargaining?
kochevnik
3 / 5 (6) Sep 10, 2011
It's funny how you keep dragging out the same, long dead arguments. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Was that your diagnosis, Objectivist?
Argumentum ad hominem. Typical childish way of discussing.
Prognosis that bad, huh?
omatumr
1 / 5 (7) Sep 11, 2011
@Omatumr; do you think this is a GOOD TIME to BUY GOLD?


I think it is a GREAT time to admit that we are totally powerless over the Great Reality that surrounds and sustains us - Nature, Cosmos, God - that we experience by experimentation, prayer, observation, meditation, contemplation, etc.

The unwillingness of world leaders and leaders of the scientific community to admit that they too are POWERLESS over Nature is the root of most of society's problems today.

The worldwide sense of unease (impending doom) may not be relieved unless we find a PEACEFUL way to

- Reduce arrogance in our leaders
- Restore integrity to science, and
- Return control of government to citizens.

This recommendation is from one who was as selfish and arrogant as the worse of them.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (9) Sep 12, 2011
"They can cut red tape, aka REGULATIONS.
Regulations ADD unnecessary costs." - ryggtard

ya just like they did for Enron
Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (9) Sep 12, 2011
""What??!! How could this be? Didn't the sophisticated econometric models the Obama administration used to justify its job numbers predict this?" - RyggTard

Well they didn't take into consideration the campaign of Republican Treason that has kept the U.S. economy from recovering.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (9) Sep 12, 2011
"On Wednesday in Longview, hundreds of International Longshore and Warehouse Union members, upset over EGTs decision to hire workers from a different union, stormed the facility and blocked train tracks there, escalating a longstanding labor dispute." - RyggTard

OmaTard is right. The wage slaves must not be allowed to protest. It isn't good for Corporate Profits.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 12, 2011
"Don't central planners know which firms are winners and which are losers?" - RyggTard

Oh that is easy. In America all firms are losers. Why else would they be so rapidly escaping to third world nations?
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Sep 12, 2011
"Companies must persuade people to buy their products.." - RyggTard

Yup, in a Libertarian view of the world, people don't purchase products they need, they purchase products that they are coerced into purchasing.

Coercion is the American Corporate way.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (9) Sep 12, 2011
"Why do some states have to force people to join a union if they were so great for the worker?" - RyggTard

It is because the worker who does not pay dues to the union is bound to still receive all of the benefits that the union negotiates for it's members.

Not doing so would mean that the union would be undercut by non-union staff, and the point of a union is to balance the power held by corporations.

Poor RyggTard. You get dumber by the second.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (9) Sep 12, 2011
"The president is a 'liberal' democrat who provided the CEO of GE a place of honor for his 'jobs' campaign speech." - RyggTard

And now the Republicans will try to destroy GE, one of America's few remaining profitable companies.

Isn't it time that Libertarians and Republicans stop acting to destroy their own nation?
Vendicar_Decarian
2.7 / 5 (7) Sep 12, 2011
"Then, Hirsh quoted a former Treasury official who argued that DoddFrank would ultimately encourage bank consolidations by creating more barriers to entry for new, smaller banks." - RyggTard

Small banks are weak banks. That is why there have been several hundred bank failures in America, and only a few in Europe, and none in Canada.

Hundereds of bank failures in the Failed American state.

Zero bank failures in Socialist Canada.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

omatumr
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 12, 2011
Misinformation on energy that powers the Sun, Earth's climate, and sustains our lives [1-3] endangers National Security.

NAS was "established by an Act of Congress . . . to "investigate, examine, experiment, and report upon any subject of science or art" whenever called upon to do so by any department of the government" [1].

If Congress requests a FULL and CANDID evaluation from NAS of conflicting information in [1-3], BEFORE approving funds for government research, this nonsense will stop!

Please help.

1. UN's IPCC reports (1990-2007)
www.nasonline.org...ain_page

2. Super-fluidity in the solar interior: Implications for solar eruptions and climate", JFE 21, 193-198 (2002) http://arxiv.org/.../0501441

3. "Neutron repulsion", in press
http://arxiv.org/...2.1499v1

With your help, integrity can be restored to science and government!

Sincerely,
Oliver K Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo
http://myprofile....anuelo09
Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (9) Sep 12, 2011
"Misinformation on energy that powers the Sun." - OmaTard

You have it all figured out OmaTard. It's neutron, neutron repulsion inside out sun that is made from nearly solid iron.
Or the neutron star at the sun's core.

You should win a Nobel.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Sep 12, 2011
There is a small, Massechusetts bank that is strong because they did not make bad, govt required loans.
'Progressives' do not like strong, indepenpent banks.
Howhot
4 / 5 (4) Sep 12, 2011
R2, I'm so sorry you think your government is so bad. You know if your looking for an opportunity; the Brazilian jungles need a developer. Someone strong headed and nutty that hates trees, tree huggers and ants.
Howhot
4.2 / 5 (5) Sep 12, 2011
R2 "There is a small, Massechusetts bank that is strong because they did not make bad, govt required loans.". BS. Your loosing your touch squeaky. What bank? What small bank in Mass is breaking regulation by not using "govt required loans"? You an the other tea-party hucksters need to go back to Jr High and take social studies, civics, economics instead of metal shop or Sunday school.
(Nothing wrong with metal shop of course).
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (9) Sep 12, 2011
Someone claims that big banks are stronger banks and I provide data that shows the opposite. The bigger banks are weaker BECAUSE of stupid govt regulations the smaller bank didn't follow.
So hottie, if govt regulations are stupid, and weaken liberty and prosperity, do you follow them?
You do if you want the govt to bail you out and to restrict your competitors. This is corporate socialism.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 12, 2011
http://www.bizjou...ry3.html

"Bank of America Corp. (NYSE: BAC), reeling from concerns over the size of its liability from troubled mortgages, has discussed cutting up to 40,000 jobs over several years as CEO Brian Moynihan battles to reduce expenses with a sweeping restructuring plan, the Wall Street Journal reported on Friday.

The bank employed about 288,000 full-time employees at the end of June. "Project New BAC" is the name of the bank's plan to cut expenses and people, the Journal said."
http://www.bizjou...may.html
Big banks are better?
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 13, 2011
"The American Lung Association's State of the Air 2010 lists these 10 cities as the country's most polluted by ozone:

Los Angeles, Calif., metropolitan area (including Long Beach and Riverside)
Bakersfield, Calif.
Visalia and Porterville, Calif.
Fresno and Madera, Calif.
Sacramento, Calif., metropolitan area (including Arden-Arcade and Yuba City)
Hanford and Corcoran, Calif.
Houston, Texas, metropolitan area (including Baytown and Huntsville)
San Diego, Calif., metropolitan area (including Carlsbad and San Marcos)
San Luis Obispo and Paso Robles, Calif.
Charlotte, N.C., metropolitan area (including Gastonia and Salisbury)"

http://health.usn...ollution
Of course geography has nothing to do with O3 pollution? Cities located in valleys create stagnant air pockets concentrating pollution.
Howhot
4 / 5 (4) Sep 13, 2011
R2, I admire how quickly you provided evidence in support of your argument. I'm not that quick.

First on the big-vs-little bank, I prefer the little guys 1000 fold over the bigs. The bigs run the world unfortunately in part due to de-regulation (thank good old POS Regan).

Anyway, back to the O3. So now that Obama wants put off O3 regulations to appease businesses that claim it will cost billions to implement, and to lower the burden on "Job Providers", and your complaining?

O3 in a urban area, in a valley, will have issues. Most of the source of O3 comes from transportation, but coal fired plants contribute too.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 13, 2011
What bank deregulation? Was CRA repealed? Was Freddie or Fannie fully privatized?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (5) Sep 13, 2011
"There is a small, Massechusetts bank that is strong because they did not make bad, govt required loans. " - RyggTard

The government didn't "require loans" of any kind.

Libertarians spend their days lying about virtually everything.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 13, 2011
The government didn't "require loans" of any kind.

The bank was punished by the govt because they did not loan more money.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 13, 2011
"Someone claims that big banks are stronger banks and I provide data that shows the opposite." - RyggTard

Bank Failures 2010

Assets Count
0-100m 36
100-200m 28
200-300m 23
300-400m 13
400-500m 13
500-600m 9
600-700m 5
700-800m 2
800-900m 5
900m-1b 0
1b-1.1b 2
1.1-1.2b 2
1.2-1.3b 4
1.3-1.4b 1
1.4-1.5b 0
1.5-1.6b 0
1.6-1.7b 3
1.7-1.8b 0
1.8-1.9b 0
1.9-2.0b 0
2.0-2.1b 0
2.1-2.2b 2
2.2-2.3b 0
2.3-2.4b 0
2.4-2.5b 0
2.5-2.6b 1
2.6-2.7b 0
2.7-2.8b 0
2.8-2.9b 1
2.9-3.0b 0
3.1-3.2b 1
3.3-3.4b 0
3.4-3.5b 2
3.5-3.6b 1
3.6-3.7b 1
3.7-5.9b 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
5.9-6.0b 1

... ->0

11.9b-12.0b 1

Poor RyggTard. Caught in yet another Libertarian/Randite Lie.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 13, 2011
"The bank was punished by the govt because they did not loan more money." - RyggTard

Can you state the law that required the banks to make these loans you claim were forced?

You can't of course. Because you are a liar. In a long line of Libertarian/Randite Liars.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 13, 2011
"Was Freddie or Fannie fully privatized?" - RyggTard

Freddie and Fannie are already private entities.

You really are a moron RyggTard.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 13, 2011
"What bank deregulation?" - RyggTard

In the Public Interest: Behind the Deregulatory Curtain

http://www.votena...curtain/

The current finger pointing by the deregulation crowd in Congress and their ideological soul mates in the media reminds me of the 1939 film classic The Wizard of Oz. It is as though these spin masters want us to pay no attention to the government officials behind the deregulation curtain.

cont...
Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (8) Sep 13, 2011
Indeed, the right-wing pundits and the revisionists in Congress are spending an inordinate amount of time falsely claiming that our nations current financial disaster stems from the Community Reinvestment Act, a law passed by Congress and signed into law by President Jimmy Carter in 1977. The primary purpose of this modest law is to require banks to report on where and to whom they are making loans. Community organizations have used the data produced as a result of this law to determine if banks were meeting their lending obligations in the minority and lower-income communities in which they do business. Congress passed this law because too many lenders were discriminating against minority borrowers. "Redlining" was the name given to the practice by banks of literally drawing a red line around minority areas and then proceeding to deny people within the red border home loans - even if they were otherwise qualified.
Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (8) Sep 13, 2011
The law has been in place for 30 years, but the right-wing fringe claims it somehow is responsible for predatory lending practices that date back just to the beginning of this decade.

Notice what these revisionists are not mentioning.

No "thank you" to former Senator Phil Gramm for pushing the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act. This law was passed in the wake of the stock market crash of 1929 and designed to separate banking from securities activities. In 1999, when Congress passed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act and in so doing repealed Glass-Steagall the banks strayed into rough waters by looking for fast money from risky investments in securities and derivatives.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 13, 2011
As predatory lending mushroomed out of control, the regulatorskey among them, the Federal Reserve and the Office of Comptroller of Currencysat on their hands. The Federal Reserve took exactly three formal actions against subprime lenders from 2002 to 2007. Bloomberg news service found that the Office of Comptroller of the Currency, which has authority over almost 1,800 banks, took three consumer-protection enforcement actions from 2004 to 2006.

No "tip of the hat" to the Bush Administration for preempting state regulators and Attorneys General from using state consumer laws to crack down on predatory and sub-prime lending by national banks.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 13, 2011
As predatory lending mushroomed out of control, the regulatorskey among them, the Federal Reserve and the Office of Comptroller of Currencysat on their hands. The Federal Reserve took exactly three formal actions against subprime lenders from 2002 to 2007. Bloomberg news service found that the Office of Comptroller of the Currency, which has authority over almost 1,800 banks, took three consumer-protection enforcement actions from 2004 to 2006.

No "tip of the hat" to the Bush Administration for preempting state regulators and Attorneys General from using state consumer laws to crack down on predatory and sub-prime lending by national banks.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (5) Sep 13, 2011
As predatory lending mushroomed out of control, the regulatorskey among them, the Federal Reserve and the Office of Comptroller of Currencysat on their hands. The Federal Reserve took exactly three formal actions against subprime lenders from 2002 to 2007. Bloomberg news service found that the Office of Comptroller of the Currency, which has authority over almost 1,800 banks, took three consumer-protection enforcement actions from 2004 to 2006.

No "tip of the hat" to the Bush Administration for preempting state regulators and Attorneys General from using state consumer laws to crack down on predatory and sub-prime lending by national banks.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (5) Sep 13, 2011
As predatory lending mushroomed out of control, the regulatorskey among them, the Federal Reserve and the Office of Comptroller of Currencysat on their hands. The Federal Reserve took exactly three formal actions against subprime lenders from 2002 to 2007. Bloomberg news service found that the Office of Comptroller of the Currency, which has authority over almost 1,800 banks, took three consumer-protection enforcement actions from 2004 to 2006.

No "tip of the hat" to the Bush Administration for preempting state regulators and Attorneys General from using state consumer laws to crack down on predatory and sub-prime lending by national banks.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (5) Sep 13, 2011
As predatory lending mushroomed out of control, the regulatorskey among them, the Federal Reserve and the Office of Comptroller of Currencysat on their hands. The Federal Reserve took exactly three formal actions against subprime lenders from 2002 to 2007. Bloomberg news service found that the Office of Comptroller of the Currency, which has authority over almost 1,800 banks, took three consumer-protection enforcement actions from 2004 to 2006.

No "tip of the hat" to the Bush Administration for preempting state regulators and Attorneys General from using state consumer laws to crack down on predatory and sub-prime lending by national banks.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 13, 2011
And, let us not forget the folks at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Imagine allowing these two government sponsored enterprisesthat were weakly regulated by HUDto claim they were meeting the national housing goals by counting the purchase of subprime loans. Back in May of 2000, our associate Jonathan Brown warned that it would be inappropriate and counterproductive to encourage Fannie and Freddie to meet the housing goals by purchasing subprime loans. Too bad our members of Congress and the regulators at HUD were infected with deregulatory zeal.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 13, 2011
Former Texas Senator and current UBS executive Phil Grammwould-be President John McCains Treasury Secretary-in-waitingpushed through the Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000, which deregulated the derivatives market. With help from his wife, Wendy, the former head of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission who went on to a post on the Enron board of directors, Gramm removed the controls on Wall Street so it could innovate all sorts of exotic financial instruments. Instruments far riskier than advertised, and now at the core of the financial meltdown.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Sep 13, 2011
Former Texas Senator and current UBS executive Phil Grammwould-be President John McCains Treasury Secretary-in-waitingpushed through the Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000, which deregulated the derivatives market. With help from his wife, Wendy, the former head of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission who went on to a post on the Enron board of directors, Gramm removed the controls on Wall Street so it could innovate all sorts of exotic financial instruments. Instruments far riskier than advertised, and now at the core of the financial meltdown.
Oh I'm sure they had very good Reasons for doing those things. One that comes to mind is that the bubble was Inevitably going to pop at some point, as usual, and the actions you describe Timed this collapse to happen at the most Advantageous moment.

Another is that the collapse threatened the most vital economy in the world, and so protecting it meant spreading the risk worldwide rather than leaving it concentrated.
Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (8) Sep 13, 2011
@Otto. You forget that the chairman of the Fed - Greenspan - an Ayn Rand disciple to the end maintained that there was no bubble and that no action was needed to intervene because according to his Libertarian/Randite ideology Corporations would never act in a manner that was against their own self interest.

Hence the half decade long claims and evidence of an growing housing bubble were ignored on strictly ideological grounds.

Similar beliefs were held and continue to be held by Washington ConservaTards, and their La La Land TeaTard brethren who just finished pushing the U.S. economy under water again with their refusal to negotiate on an extension of the U.S. debt limit.

TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Sep 13, 2011
So... You actually expect Them to tell you what's going to happen, and not instead try to misdirect your attention, obscure Their Preparations? You'd only go on the Internet and tell everybody. And then it would't WORK would it?
WOULD IT??

We are Dupes by Design. The only clue you have is the one you're given.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) Sep 13, 2011
Hence the half decade long claims and evidence of an growing housing bubble were ignored on strictly ideological grounds.
That's what it looks like now, from the info you're given and from your own particular official contrarian perspective. Others with different colored glasses interpret the same info entirely differently.

When one looks at the most substantial Effects of these Occurances one sees in them the Effort to Schedule them and to delocalize Them.

A One World Govt needs to generate Issues that everybody can participate in. You know, to impart a sense of Community, to overcome old divisions and create New ones as needed. Like ww2 and the threat of nuclear annihilation for instance.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 13, 2011
@Otto.

Ya, it's all a conspiracy directed by the Illuminati and the grey aliens who are living under the White House.

Here some advice for you...

Never ascribe to conspiracy what plain stupidity can explain.
Howhot
5 / 5 (4) Sep 13, 2011
@VD. Nothing you have said has even slightly set off my crap detector. What an amazing debate to read, FACT vs fiction, common sense vs wasted brains.

GSwift7
5 / 5 (2) Sep 14, 2011
@VD. Nothing you have said has even slightly set off my crap detector. What an amazing debate to read, FACT vs fiction


This is me being picky, not disagreeing, but when VD listed the number of failures by asset value, I would rather see that as a percentage. Eithr way, the larger banks are more capable of recovery, so I do agree. I just don't think that the number of failures by assset value is a good way to show it.

As for the housing buble, when people like my cousin could make tens of thousands in a couple years without any collateral I knew something was going to bust eventually. They had to see it coming. The problam is t hat they were making money too. It wasn't a conspiracy, just personal greed. Not a political issue, just investment and finance.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) Sep 14, 2011
@Otto.

Ya, it's all a conspiracy directed by the Illuminati and the grey aliens who are living under the White House.

Here some advice for you...

Never ascribe to conspiracy what plain stupidity can explain.
And you explain it quite well. :-)))))ROFLMEOW

No, seriously, things always seem to turn out much better in the end. This should not be the case if random stupidity was the cause.
Hence the half decade long claims and evidence of an growing housing bubble were ignored on strictly ideological grounds.
Trust me. The world will be a much better place once the dust finally settles, youll see. Except youll probably be DEAD by then :-))))))))))))
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Sep 14, 2011
Public Law 106 - 102 - Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act was passed by a majority of 535 members of Congress and signed by president Clinton.

If you recall a previous reference to the 1997 press release by Wachovia, note they were proudly secritizing mortgages virtually guaranteed by Freddie and Fannie to meet their CRA obligations.

Also recall the internet bubble was popping in the late 90s and new avenues were needed to inflate the dollar. Housing was it and banks needed the flexibility to get into the mortgage secritization business.
What deregulation?
Like the CA power 'deregulation', it was a regulation revision, not a regulation deletion.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 14, 2011
"Subtitle BCommunity Reinvestment"
"ANNUAL REPORT OF ACTIVITY BY INSURED DEPOSITORY
INSTITUTION.Each insured depository institution or affiliate that
is a party to an agreement described in subsection (a) shall report
to the appropriate Federal banking agency with supervisory responsibility
over the insured depository institution, not less frequently
than once each year, such information as the Federal banking
agency may by rule require relating to the following actions taken
by the party pursuant to the agreement during the preceding 12-
month period:"
"Aggregate data on loans, investments, and services
provided by each party in its community or communities pursuant
to the agreement."
"FULFILLMENT OF CRA.For purposes of subparagraph
(A), the term fulfillment means a list of factors that the appropriate
Federal banking agency determines have a material
impact on the agencys decision"
http://www.gpo.go...l102.pdf
What deregulation?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 15, 2011
Sen. Phil Gramm (R, Texas), Rep. Jim Leach (R, Iowa), and Rep. Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. (R, Virginia), the co-sponsors of the GrammLeachBliley Act.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 15, 2011
According to a 2009 Cato Institute Libertarian/Randite policy report authored by one of the institute's directors, Mark A. Calabria, critics of the GrammLeachBliley Act feared that, with the allowance for mergers between investment and commercial banks, GLB allowed the newly-merged banks to take on riskier investments while at the same time removing any requirements to maintain enough equity, exposing the assets of its banking customers. Calabria claimed that, prior to the passage of GLB in 1999, investment banks were already capable of holding and trading the very financial assets claimed to be the cause of the mortgage crisis, and were also already able to keep their books as they had. The Libertarian concluded that greater access to investment capital as many investment banks went public on the market explains the shift in their holdings to trading portfolios.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 15, 2011
Conservative economists Brad DeLong (of the University of California, Berkeley) and Tyler Cowen (of George Mason University in Virginia) have both argued that the GrammLeachBliley Act softened the impact of the crisis. Atlantic Monthly columnist Megan McArdle has argued that if the act was "part of the problem, it would be the commercial banks, not the investment banks, that were in trouble" and repeal would not have helped the situation. An article in the conservative publication,National Review, has made the same argument, calling liberal allegations about the Act folk economics.
omatumr
1 / 5 (6) Sep 15, 2011
Obama's current dilemma is a fitting conclusion to the pseudo-scientific AGW propaganda campaign promoted by Al Gore and the UN's IPCC.

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo
Career Summary
http://dl.dropbox...reer.doc
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 15, 2011
Sen. Phil Gramm (R, Texas), Rep. Jim Leach (R, Iowa), and Rep. Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. (R, Virginia), the co-sponsors of the GrammLeachBliley Act.

Passed by a majority in Congress and signed by Bill Clinton.
What deregulation?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 15, 2011
"What deregulation?" - RyggTard

You just documented it. Tard Boy.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 15, 2011
"Passed by a majority in Congress and signed by Bill Clinton." - RyggTard

A Republican congress.

Can you tell us why this Republican Bill passed by both a Republican Senate and a Republican House, and promoted by Libertarian propaganda groups like Cato (Koch), and the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the other Libertarian propaganda groups, would turn out to be such a disaster for America?

Howhot
5 / 5 (6) Sep 15, 2011
Republicans are so corrupt and easily so easily corrupt-able, that is what is wrong with them. They are what is wrong with America. During Clinton's 8 years of service you guy changed from a respectable debater to a party uneducated corrupt purveyors of misery. You guy should ware the misery index around your necks as a badge of your dishonor to the red-white-and blue.

ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 15, 2011
Voting record for Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act:

Senate: 7 Ds voted no, 38 Ds voted yes
House: 51 Ds voted no, 155 Ds voted yes

"On November 4, the final bill resolving the differences was passed by the Senate 90-8,[14][15] and by the House 362-57.[16][17] The legislation was signed into law by President Clinton on November 12, 1999.[18]"
"Crucial to the passing of this Act was an amendment made to the GLB, stating that no merger may go ahead if any of the financial holding institutions, or affiliates thereof, received a "less than satisfactory [sic] rating at its most recent CRA exam", essentially meaning that any merger may only go ahead with the strict approval of the regulatory bodies responsible for the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA).[19] This was an issue of hot contention, and the Clinton Administration stressed that it "would veto any legislation that would scale back minority-lending requirements." [20]"
http://en.wikiped...iley_Act
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 15, 2011
""When this potentially historic agreement is finalized," Clinton said in a statement, "it will strengthen the economy and help consumers, communities and businesses across America."

Treasury Secretary Lawrence H. Summers said in an interview, "At the end of the 20th century, we will at last be replacing an archaic set of restrictions with a legislative foundation for a 21st-century financial system." The measure, he added, "would provide significant benefits to the national economy." "
http://partners.n...ess.html
That's the same Larry Summers who was fired from Harvard and who was Obama's economic advisor?
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 15, 2011
"Fannie and Freddie used their affordable housing mission to avoid additional regulation by Congress, especially restrictions on the accumulation of mortgage portfolios (today totaling approximately $1.6 trillion) that accounted for most of their profits. The GSEs argued that if Congress constrained the size of their mortgage portfolios, they could not afford to adequately subsidize affordable housing. By 1997, Fannie was offering a 97 percent loan-to-value mortgage. By 2001, it was offering mortgages with no down payment at all. By 2007, Fannie and Freddie were required to show that 55 percent of their mortgage purchases were LMI loans and, within that goal, 38 percent of all purchases were to come from underserved areas (usually inner cities) and 25 percent were to be loans to low-income and very-low-income borrowers. Meeting these goals almost certainly required Fannie and Freddie to purchase loans with low down payments and other deficiencies...http://spectator..../2009/02
Howhot
4.4 / 5 (7) Sep 15, 2011
R2; that is all amazing sausage grinding an all, but look, all of that was under the watch of the "conservative" movement. Basically the equivalent of the FU America people Movement.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 16, 2011
What 'conservative' movement?
Many don't consider GWB to be that conservative but they did recognize GSEs needed to be regulated.
http://georgewbus...-10.html
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 16, 2011
"After years of blaming heartless Republicans and Wall Street for the crisis caused by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - and their predominantly Democratic supporters in Congress - it's refreshing to hear a member of the Democratic Party admit his mistakes.

It's especially true of Frank, who, more than any other elected official, championed the cause of the government-sponsored enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Indeed, Frank is most responsible for stopping GSE reform in the early 2000s, at a time when such a move might have prevented the financial meltdown.

Maybe Frank, like so many others in his party, is feeling the heat in this November's election. Democrats' popularity is plunging after years of economic incompetence that has left America's once-thriving economy a shambles."
http://www.realcl...631.html
Barney is no conservative.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 16, 2011
"Senate: 7 Ds voted no, 38 Ds voted yes
House: 51 Ds voted no, 155 Ds voted yes" - RyggTard

Senate: 1 Republicans voted no, 52 voted yes.
House: 5 Republicans voted no, 207 voted yes.

Can you tell us why this Republican Bill passed by both a Republican Senate and a Republican House, and promoted by Libertarian propaganda groups like Cato (Koch), and the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the other Libertarian propaganda groups, would turn out to be such a disaster for America?

ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 16, 2011
Where was the deregulation?
"What we have at present is a banking system within the framework of the central bank, which promotes monetary inflation and the destruction of the process of real-wealth generation through fractional-reserve banking.

In the present system, the more unrestricted the banks are, the more money they can generate "out of thin air," and the more damage they can inflict upon the wealth-generation process."
"The deregulated environment resulted in fierce competition between banks.

The previously fixed margins were severely curtailed. This in turn called for an increase in volumes of lending in order to maintain the level of profits.

This increase culminated in an explosion in the creation of credit out of thin air. Indeed, in the deregulated environment, banks' ability to amplify the Fed's pumping has enormously increased."
"The present banking system has nothing to do with a true free-market economy."
http://mises.org/daily/4100
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 16, 2011
"The financial services
mod-ernization legislation thus should
repeal the 1933 Glass-Steagall Act and reform the
1956 Bank Holding Company Act,
allow banks to structure their new activities through
operating subsidiaries or affiliates,
reduce the "moral hazard" of federal deposit insurance
by mimicking private bond covenants, and
not raise any new regulatory barriers."
http://www.cato.o...bp45.pdf
Of course the last two bullets were NOT followed by Gramm et al.

"The Community Reinvestment Act should be repealed. In its current
form, requiring federal regulators to rate institutions, subjectively and
arbitrarily, on how satisfactorily they meet the credit needs of the
neighborhoods where they gather deposits, the act is largely a costly
nuisance. It requires reams of paperwork but has no demonstrable impact
on the geographic allocation of credit."
"Taxpayer-backed FDIC insurance continues to subsidize
risky bank behavior."
http://www.cato.o...ndbook/h
Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (6) Sep 17, 2011
"Where was the deregulation?" - RyggTard

You just tried to show that Democrats were behind it. Tard Boy.

Tried and failed.

House: 51 Ds voted no, 155 Ds voted yes" - RyggTard

Senate: 1 Republicans voted no, 52 voted yes.
House: 5 Republicans voted no, 207 voted yes.

Can you tell us why this Republican Bill passed by both a Republican Senate and a Republican House, and promoted by Libertarian propaganda groups like Cato (Koch), and the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the other Libertarian propaganda groups, would turn out to be such a disaster for America?
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 17, 2011
VD claimed a single Republican senator has the power to force a majority in Congress and to force a democrat president Clinton to pass his bill.
The bill was passed with democrat support AFTER the CRA caveats were added.
CATO supported repeal of Glass Steagall but the Gramm bill did much more that which CATO clearly did NOT support which has been well documented in references provided, like the repeal of CRA and getting the taxpayers off the hook for insuring bank deposits.
The disaster was the fault of bad regulations insisted upon by Clinton and the democrats.
Gramm's mistake is the typical mistake made by legislators, compromising principles.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Sep 17, 2011
Senate: 1 Republicans voted no, 52 voted yes.
House: 5 Republicans voted no, 207 voted yes.

Can you tell us why this Republican Bill passed by both a Republican Senate and a Republican House, and promoted by Libertarian propaganda groups like Cato (Koch), and the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the other Libertarian propaganda groups, would turn out to be such a disaster for America?
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 17, 2011
"Engmann reports that the owners and managers of Superior Bank ignored repeated warnings by government bank regulators that they were loading-up the bank with too-risky assets. Engmann quotes OTS examination report warnings in the reports dated July 6, 1993; August 8, 1994; September 11, 1995; October 27, 1997; and January 24, 2000.

Because Superior Bank's owners, including Penny Pritzker, ignored these prominent warnings from regulators, the government ultimately was forced to seize the bank. "
"Presidential nominee Barack Obama tells us that he will fix the banking system by imposing more regulation. Yet the person he chose to serve as his own campaign finance chief ignored the banking regulators who tried to rein in her own bank's out-of-control, profit-motivated risk-taking. And this was documented before he chose her,..."
http://spectator....itzker/3
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Sep 17, 2011
"Creates a new "financial holding company" under section 4 of the Bank Holding Company Act. Such holding company can engage in a statutorily provided list of financial activities, including insurance and securities underwriting and agency activities, merchant banking and insurance company portfolio investment activities. "

"The Federal Reserve may not permit a company to form a financial holding company if any of its insured depository institution subsidiaries are not well capitalized and well managed, or did not receive at least a satisfactory rating in their most recent CRA exam. "
"If any insured depository institution or insured depository institution affiliate of a financial holding company received less than a satisfactory rating in its most recent CRA exam, the appropriate Federal banking agency may not approve any additional new activities or acquisitions under the authorities granted under the Act. "
http://banking.se...each.htm
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 17, 2011
Mark A. Calabria, Ph.D. is Director of Financial Regulation Studies at the Cato Institute. He was a member of the senior staff of the U.S. Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs where he handled issues related to housing, mortgage finance, economics, banking and insurance for Ranking Member Richard Shelby. Dr. Calabria previously served as staff on the Senate Banking Committee under Chairman Phil Gramm.

According to a 2009 Cato Institute policy report authored by one of the institute's directors, Mark A. Calabria, critics of the legislation feared that, with the allowance for mergers between investment and commercial banks, GLB allowed the newly-merged banks to take on riskier investments while at the same time removing any requirements to maintain enough equity, exposing the assets of its banking customers.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 17, 2011
Calabria claimed that, prior to the passage of GLB in 1999, investment banks were already capable of holding and trading the very financial assets claimed to be the cause of the mortgage crisis, and were also already able to keep their books as they had.

He concluded that greater access to investment capital as many investment banks went public on the market explains the shift in their holdings to trading portfolios.

Calabria noted that after GLB passed, most investment banks did not merge with depository commercial banks, and that in fact, the few banks that did merge weathered the crisis better than those that did not.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 17, 2011
"Gramm-Leach-Bliley

Summary of Provisions"

"Clarifies that nothing in the act repeals any provision of the CRA. "
http://banking.se...each.htm
"The financial services
mod-ernization legislation thus should
repeal the 1933 Glass-Steagall Act and reform the
1956 Bank Holding Company Act,
allow banks to structure their new activities through
operating subsidiaries or affiliates,
reduce the "moral hazard" of federal deposit insurance
by mimicking private bond covenants, and
not raise any new regulatory barriers.
No. 45 March 12, 1999
Cato"
http://www.cato.o...bp45.pdf

"Congress should....repeal the Community Reinvestment Act."
http://www.cato.o...6-31.pdf
CATO's handbook to the 106 Congress.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 17, 2011
Passed by a Republican congress.

Senate: 1 Republicans voted no, 52 voted yes.
House: 5 Republicans voted no, 207 voted yes.

Can you tell us why this Republican Bill passed by both a Republican Senate and a Republican House, and promoted by Libertarian propaganda groups like Cato (Koch), and the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the other Libertarian propaganda groups, would turn out to be such a disaster for America?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 17, 2011
Obama sworn into office Jan 20, 2009

Cato Document Modified Jan 29,2009
Congress should

* enact reforms allowing commercial banks to provide a universal range of financial services, including insurance, underwriting, merchant banking, and securities brokerage;

* phase out federal deposit insurance;

* privatize the clearing services that Federal Reserve Banks currently provide to commercial banks;

* eliminate reserve requirements; and

* repeal the Community Reinvestment Act

Another Libertarian Gem...

Reserve Requirements
In the 105th Congress, a Senate bill (S. 1405) would have allowed the
Federal Reserve to pay interest on the required reserves that commercial
banks hold in the form of deposits at the Federal Reserve Banks. While
payment of interest on bank balances at the Fed (total balances, not just
those used for meeting reserve requirements) would be an improvement,
Congress should also eliminate reserve requirements.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 17, 2011
Banks are increasingly
using computer programs to avoid reserve requirements, sweeping
reservable account balances overnight into nonreservable instruments, and
sweeping them back in the morning. Between 1993 and 1997 commercial
banks used such tactics to cut their required reserve balances from $28
billion to $9 billion, and further reductions are expected, implying that
reserve requirements are raising less and less revenue. The resources
consumed in sweeping could be saved by simply eliminating reserve
requirements. Many other industrialized countries have already eliminated
reserve requirements. They are not needed for monetary control; they
serve only as a distortionary (but increasingly ineffective) tax on consumers
who hold bank deposits.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 17, 2011
Where is the evidence that the 105th Congress was a libertarian Congress?
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 17, 2011
"Mr. Johnson and Mr. Raines aren't the only figures in the subprime mortgage scandal to be connected to the Obama campaign. Jamie Gorelick, rumored to be an attorney general candidate in an Obama administration, was vice chairman of Fannie Mae from 1997 to 2003. Penny Pritzker, Mr. Obama's national finance chairman, has been described as "the Michael Milken of the subprime mortage crisis" for her pioneering of the packaging of bad loans with good ones at her now defunct Superior bank in suburban Chicago.

"The financial engineering that created the financial meltdown was developed by the Pritzkers and Ernst and Young, working with Merrill Lynch to sell bonds securitized by sub-prime mortgages," said Timothy Anderson, a retired bank consultant. "
http://www.realcl...ama.html
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 17, 2011
1. Good govt regulations properly enforced.
2. Bad govt regulations properly enforced.
3. Good govt regulations improperly enforced.
4. Bad govt regulations improperly enforced.

In the four combinations above, govt has responsibility for all. Regardless which combination led to the present economic state, the govt IS responsible.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (6) Sep 17, 2011
"Where is the evidence that the 105th Congress was a libertarian Congress?" - RyggTard

And yet another straw man from the dishonest Libertarian Kook.

Senate: 1 Republicans voted no, 52 voted yes.
House: 5 Republicans voted no, 207 voted yes.

Can you tell us why this Republican Bill passed by both a Republican Senate and a Republican House, and promoted by Libertarian propaganda groups like Cato (Koch), and the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the other Libertarian propaganda groups, would turn out to be such a disaster for America?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 17, 2011
More Libertarian Poison to kill America.

From the Libertarian/Randite party platform....

We hold that human rights should not be denied or abridged on the basis of nationality. We condemn massive roundups of Hispanic Americans and others by the federal government in its hunt for individuals not possessing required government documents.

We strongly oppose all measures that punish employers who hire undocumented workers. Such measures repress free enterprise, harass workers, and systematically discourage employers from hiring Hispanics.

Cont..
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 17, 2011
We welcome all refugees to our country and condemn the efforts of U.S. officials to create a new "Berlin Wall" which would keep them captive.

We condemn the U.S. government's policy of barring those refugees from our country and preventing Americans from assisting their passage to help them escape tyranny or improve their economic prospects.

Undocumented non-citizens should not be denied the fundamental freedom to labor and to move about unmolested. Furthermore, immigration must not be restricted for reasons of race, religion, political creed, age, or sexual preference.

Cont...
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 17, 2011
We therefore call for the elimination of all restrictions on immigration, the abolition of the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Border Patrol, and a declaration of full amnesty for all people who have entered the country illegally. We oppose government welfare and resettlement payments to non-citizens just as we oppose government welfare payments to all other persons.

ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Sep 17, 2011
What's wrong with the libertarian immigration policy?
Why shouldn't people be able to move to places that will hire them or to start a business?
If the USA dropped its restrictive immigration policies, AND ended welfare, I wonder how many English speaking immigrants from India, Philippines, China, Europe, ....would rush to the USA. I bet there were be so many, countries would try to stop their best and brightest from moving to the US. After all, millions risk immigrating illegally. Of course this would be AFTER the current socialist regime is out of power.
I wonder how many would welcome an opportunity to move to SC to work at Boeing's new factory?
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Sep 17, 2011
From 1995:
:In a case involving Chevy Chase Federal Savings, the Justice Department went beyond the dubious criterion of minorities' being more likely to be denied loans than are whites.

Finding no lending bias, McKinley writes, the government alleged that Chevy Chase failed to have enough branches in minority communities. Chevy Chase, like Shawmut National before it, chose to settle with the government rather than submit to costly and prolonged litigation."
"Altering the underlying regulations merely leaves the way open for future administrations to utilize the statute as a government credit allocation scheme."
http://www.cato.o...-cr.html
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 17, 2011
"What's wrong with the libertarian immigration policy?" - RyggTard

You mean other than the fact that it violates all notion of national sovereignty and economic reality?

It certainly would assist in lowering the wages and living standards of Americans to third world status as rapidly as possible.

The Corporations that currently rule America would certainly love that.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (6) Sep 17, 2011
Senate: 1 Republicans voted no, 52 voted yes.
House: 5 Republicans voted no, 207 voted yes.

Can you tell us why this Republican Bill passed by both a Republican Senate and a Republican House, and promoted by Libertarian propaganda groups like Cato (Koch), and the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the other Libertarian propaganda groups, would turn out to be such a disaster for America?
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 17, 2011
Senate: 1 Republicans voted no, 52 voted yes.
House: 5 Republicans voted no, 207 voted yes.

Can you tell us why this Republican Bill passed by both a Republican Senate and a Republican House, and promoted by Libertarian propaganda groups like Cato (Koch), and the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the other Libertarian propaganda groups, would turn out to be such a disaster for America?

CRA, which is opposed by libertarians and supported and defended by 'progressives'.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 17, 2011
You mean other than the fact that it violates all notion of national sovereignty and economic reality?

How?
'Progressive' immigration polices support Balkinization of immigrants to create a dependent class for them.
Forcing students with Hispanic surnames into Spanish classes, against their parents consent is but one example.
Demanding ballots be printed in dozens of languages in another.
It's funny the VD is worried about national sovereignty when he supports a govt that refuses to enforce immigration laws.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 17, 2011
Congressman Ron Paul, 2002:
"Ironically, by transferring the risk of a widespread mortgage default, the government increases the likelihood of a painful crash in the housing market. This is because the special privileges of Fannie, Freddie, and HLBB have distorted the housing market by allowing them to attract capital they could not attract under pure market conditions. As a result, capital is diverted from its most productive use into housing. This reduces the efficacy of the entire market and thus reduces the standard of living of all Americans."
http://www.ronpau...ly-2002/
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 18, 2011
"Falcon was the chief regulator attempting to bring order to the houses of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac during the first four years of this decade, and had he been listened to, a significant part of the housing crisis could have been mitigated. Instead, his agency was denied serious regulatory power by Democrats in Congress, including liberals such as Reps. Barney Frank and Maxine Waters, both of whom assumed he was undermining public support for more affordable housing."
"In short, they behaved like the other financial conglomerates, but the government-sponsored housing enterprises were protected by powerful members of Congress and what turned out to be a strong guarantee that their bad paper would be covered by the taxpayers."
http://www.nhregi...1870.txt
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 18, 2011
"In other words,
Gramm appears to be serious about putting GSE policy under the microscope. Senator
Gramms spokesperson stated that Senator Gramms efforts to place a cap on the MPF
program fits into his philosophy of limiting government-sponsored enterprises because of
the risk to taxpayers."
"The GSEs are skilled in political gamesmanship -- helping to shield them from regulators--
much like the S&Ls of the 1980s, added Sepp. The GSEs are also exempt from many business
practices required to show transparency."
"Steve Moore from Cato wrote an editorial for Investors Business Daily calling Fannie and Freddie
ticking time bombs of debt and recommended full privatization of the GSEs."
http://www.gserep...ct13.pdf
Cin5456
4.2 / 5 (5) Sep 18, 2011
I dont trust anything that comes out of Phillip Grahams philosophy, partly because of his ties to Wendy Graham, his wife, and because of who he is associated with now. His prevue is individual wealth management.

Wendy Graham was instrumental in the Enron debacle and is on the board of several corporations that have benefited from deregulation in the stock markets.

And Phil Graham is now employed by UBS AG, a Swiss global financial services company headquartered in Basel and Zürich, Switzerland, which provides investment banking, asset management, and wealth management services for private, corporate, and institutional clients worldwide, as well as retail clients in Switzerland. It operates in more than 40 countries and considered as the world's second largest manager of private wealth assets [. . .]

We know Graham's interests lie with the wealthiest of the wealthy, the ones who hide their money away from legal taxation. He's a traitor to his country.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 18, 2011
Gramm was correct about GSEs.
hide their money away from legal taxation

Like GE, whose CEO works for Obama?
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 18, 2011
Cin, are you willing to separate bank from state?
Unless you support that, banks will be tied to politicians and you will continue to have crony socialism.
Since money is power, and 'progressives' crave power, they will never give up power to control banks. It was the 'progressives' that created the Federal Reserve after all.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 18, 2011
"General Electric, with a larger lobbying budget than any other company in America, has long lobbied for and profited from Big Government. Since Obama tapped GE CEO Jeffrey Immelt as Job Czar, this critique has spread throughout the Right.

When it came out that GE's U.S. corporate income tax bill for 2010 was $0, anti-GE sentiment grew on the Left and Right. Finally, at the latest Republcian debate Newt Gingrich attacked GE for profiting from Obama-style green-energy loopholes."
"GE, again, spends more on lobbying than any other company. Its lobbyists include Linda Daschle, whose husband Tom was the Senate Majority Leader and today is a confidant of Obama. "
"Immelt has been an official advisor to Obama through his whole presidency"
http://campaign20...pitalism
'Progressives', defend this.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
More crony socialism:
"Obama admin reworked Solyndra loan to favor donor"
"Argonaut Ventures I LLC and Madrone Partners LP stand to be repaid before the U.S. government if the solar company is liquidated. The two firms gave the company a total of $69 million in emergency loans. The loans are the only portion of their investments that have repayment priority above the U.S. government.

Argonaut is an investment vehicle of the George Kaiser Family Foundation of Tulsa, Okla. The foundation is headed by billionaire George Kaiser, a major Obama campaign contributor and a frequent visitor to the White House. Kaiser raised between $50,000 and $100,000 for Obama's 2008 campaign, federal election records show. Kaiser has made at least 16 visits to the president's aides since 2009, according to White House visitor logs."
http://www.ajc.co...334.html
Cin5456
5 / 5 (5) Sep 18, 2011
I don't know about GE. Not my area.

But I believe that from your question above that you are in favor of repealing the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act. I've been reading up on it and I believe the government took action that needed to be taken. I don't believe that we should continue to support banks that are considered too big to fail. But, on the other hand, Standard and Poors supports the bill, and has made a thorough study of the bill and its implications.
http://www.standa...14573699
If you can't reach it by the above link look it up with this title in google:
"The U.S. Government Says Support For Banks Will Be Different "Next Time"--But Will It?"

I wonder about S&Ps support of the bill considering its downgraded rating of US credit. My opinion is that S&P is waiting for a republican in office to reverse its rating, and that the current policy and rating is purely political.
Cin5456
4.2 / 5 (5) Sep 18, 2011
GE is like any other corporation seeking to mitigate its tax liability. It has just been more successful than other corporations so far. But the Oil companies are not far behind, and I don't know of a single "Huge" conglomerate that doesn't donate millions to politicians. Thay have donated over 9 million dollars to politicians and others since 2009.

Its total contribution to republicans is $1,861,464. Its total contributions to democrats is $1,610,837. Who won?

GE also contributes to "527" organizations, PACs, committees, and lobbyists. 527 orgs are tax exempt orgs that fund the election or defeat of political candidates, and there is no limit on amounts of contributions or on who can contribute.

I think the bad guy is GE, not Obama. He has to work with someone, and GE is the sixth largest conglomerate in the US. They employ over 133,000 people. If they are going to lay off people, it would behove the president to attempt to mitigate that layoff potential.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 18, 2011
I think the bad guy is GE, not Obama

The president of the USA is at the mercy of the CEO of GE?
Why are 'progressives' so quick to forgive govt failures when it is govt that has the power?
Because of govt power, taxes, regulations, most businesses are waiting to see if they can earn a profit in the next few years.
Cin5456
4.3 / 5 (6) Sep 18, 2011
Right now the entire country is at the mercy of the corporations and conglomerates that are laying off millions of workers.

The whole shooting match would be handled if they stopped laying off people and started hiring. More people working means more people buying, and more products being demanded for production.

But they would rather take their profits and get to the nearest Swiss bank account or devalued villas on the Riviera.

I don't think Obama or any other president can change them. They will continue to go their own profitable ways, no matter what legislations or bills are passed. There is always another loophole, like the ones built into the system by G.W. Bush for the Oil Moguls in Texas.

You know, the loopholes that donate billions every year to the coffers of Texaco, Shell, Conoco, and Chevron, Phillips, Exxon, Citgo, and others. For a look at their Sales and Earnings go to:
http://www.americ...nd%20Gas
omatumr
1 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
The threat of nuclear war gave birth to Hippies and to secret agreements among world leaders to endorse the Bilderberg model of a stable H-filled Sun and global climate change as the common enemy to unite nations and promote world peace [1]:

1. "Historical roots of Climategate"

http://en.wikiped..._Mao.jpg

http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

http://dl.dropbox...oots.doc

But Earth is heated by a variable star, powered by neutron repulsion in its neutron-rich core. That is why Earth's climate has always changed, and life continues to evolve [2]:

2. "Origin and evolution of life"

http://dl.dropbox...5079.pdf

Fanaticism replaced consensus science after errors were found in claims we caused global climate change [3]:

3. Meteorologist Director fired!

www.climategate.c...ekes.pdf

Oliver K. Manuel
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Sep 18, 2011
Right now the entire country is at the mercy of the corporations and conglomerates that are laying off millions of workers.

Why do you think they are doing this?
Everyone is at the mercy of Obamacare and his regime's 200 new regulations and his new taxes on businesses.

Just think how many new jobs there would be in the US had Obama not stopped a coal mine in WV or stopped oil exploration in the Gulf or is trying to stop Boeing from expanding in SC.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Sep 18, 2011
"The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers' Texas unit wrote to the EPA on June 16 on behalf of its 23,000 members. IBEW executive Jonathan Gardner warned that EPA red tape "directly would jeopardize the jobs of approximately 1,500 IBEW members working at six different power plants across the state of Texas."

Gardner argued, "The shutdown of coal-fired units without any meaningful benefit to the environment is not justified."

"The 76,000-member United Mine Workers estimates that EPA-fueled power-plant closures directly could kill 54,151 jobs and indirectly destroy 197,140 others in America's coal, utility, and railroad industries.
R. Thomas Buffenbarger, president of the 720,000-member International Association of Machinists, penned a June 29 letter with Peter J. Bunce, CEO of the General Aviation Manufacturers Association. This labor-management duo pleaded with President Barack Obama to stop slamming corporate jets."
http://www.newsma...-Commerc
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Sep 18, 2011
"The Obama administration has not opposed the Keystone XL oil pipeline, which would transport petroleum from Canada's oil sands to Texas' refineries. Instead, it has studied this project into paralysis.

The State Department favors it, while the EPA frowns "a process that has gone on for more than two years," the presidents of the Plumbing and Pipefitters, Operating Engineers, Laborers International, and Teamsters unions (with 2.6 million members among all four) complained last October.

Eleven months onward, Washington still contemplates Keystone. These labor leaders denounce this "lost ground for thousands of workers who are sitting on the sidelines of our ailing national economy."

Read more on Newsmax.com: Even Unions See Obama Is Killing Jobs
Important: Do You Support Pres. Obama's Re-Election? Vote Here Now!
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Sep 18, 2011
"Gibson Guitar is at the heart of this jobs debate, and is an example of exactly why President Obama has it wrong when it comes to getting our economy back on track. Maybe if the President spent more time finding real solutions to empowering small business owners and less time hindering businesses like Gibson, wed see more new jobs being created.

Small businesses under the leadership of executives like Henry are the key to getting our nations economic engine running again. While the President is busy delivering speeches, small business leaders like Henry are busy trying to deliver results. The best thing President Obama could do is seek their advice, then get out of the way. Big government doesnt create jobs, small businesses like Gibson Guitar do."
http://blog.memph.../?p=2932
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 18, 2011
24,000 regulations posted in the last 365 days won't have an economic impact will they?
http://www.regula...v/#!home
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
The unrestricted, open borders, immigration policy promoted by Libertarians because it violates all notion of national sovereignty and economic reality?

"How" - RyggTard

By permitting unrestricted immigration of people from third world nations to America to compete with Americans for what few jobs remain in America. Such unrestricted immigration will drive down American wages and the American standard of living.

"Progressive' immigration polices support Balkinization of immigrants to create a dependent class for them." - RyggTard

By restricting immigration, there are few to no immigrants to Balkinize since immigration of those who are of employable age generally requires employment.

You Poor ignorant Tard you.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
"It's funny the VD is worried about national sovereignty when he supports a govt that refuses to enforce immigration laws." - RyggTard

How sad for you that various courts all over America have concluded that the current government IS enforcing immigration laws.

Why do you feel a need to lie about it RyggTard.

And why are you complaining about it when Your own Libertarian party platform calls for open and unrestricted immigration without limit?

I guess you are just being dishonest about this issue as well.

I have never encountered a Libertarian who wasn't a perpetual and congenital Liar.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
"Gibson Guitar" - RyggTard

Has apparently been purchasing wood that has been illegally produced, in violation of the law.

Why is it that only Fascist Libertarians are coming to the aid of such corporate criminals?
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
"The Obama administration has not opposed the Keystone XL oil pipeline, which would transport petroleum from Canada's oil sands to Texas' refineries." - RyggTard

It should, since oil from Canada's Tar Sands has the largest CO2 footprint of any oil available.

Getting the Failed American State off of it's habituation to oil should be the secondary goal of the current administration.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (9) Sep 18, 2011
"24,000 regulations posted in the last 365 days won't have an economic impact will they?" - RyggTard

Your own reference shows that your 24,000 figure is a lie.

16,936 of what you claim are "regulations" are actually notifications of meetings and schedules.

2,545 of what you claim are "regulations" are actually proposed regulations.

The remaining 5,017 new regulations.

So once again you have been caught in a lie.

Your claim 24,000 regulations over the last year. But in reality there have been only 5,017.

So you have dishonestly inflated the real figure by a factor of 5. In fact more than that, since many of the "regulations" you cite are in fact a removal of a regulation.

Case in point
33 CFR Part 165

SUMMARY: The Coast Guard is removing a security zone on the navigable
waters of San Diego Bay, San Diego, CA. The existing zone is around the
former Fleet Industrial Supply Center Pier. Cont.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
The pier is no longer owned
by the U.S. Navy and the existing security zone is no longer necessary
to provide for the security of the U.S. Naval vessels, their crews, and
the public from sabotage or other subversive acts, accidents, criminal
actions, or other causes of a similar nature.

Still other entries are simply entries into the federal register and not new regulations at all.

As in the following...

Federal Register: October 12, 2010 (Volume 75, Number 196)

SUMMARY: FWHA is issuing this notice to advise the public that an
Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) will be prepared for proposed
transportation improvements in Davis County, Utah.

My estimate would be that only around 30 percent of the entries listed as Rules, are actually new regulations. Reducing the number from 5,017 to around 1,500.

So the real number of new regulations is actually around 1,500, and Libertarian RyggTard dishonestly claims 24,000.

RyggTard is now a proven liar.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (7) Sep 18, 2011
Senate: 1 Republicans voted no, 52 voted yes.
House: 5 Republicans voted no, 207 voted yes.

Can you tell us why this Republican Bill passed by both a Republican Senate and a Republican House, and promoted by Libertarian propaganda groups like Cato (Koch), and the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the other Libertarian propaganda groups, would turn out to be such a disaster for America?
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Sep 18, 2011
Has apparently been purchasing wood that has been illegally produced, in violation of the law.

Govt is always right?
"Everything is sealed. They wont tell us anything, Juszkiewicz said, never raising his voice but pulling no punches in his defense of the storied guitar maker.

However, a Reuters report includes some speculation that it might be a weird Justice Department interpretation of a law the Indian government has not asked the American government to enforce:

"(The government) has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department's interpretation of a law in India," Juszkiewicz said."
http://www.humane...id=45785
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (7) Sep 18, 2011
Poor RyggTard own reference shows that he is a bald faced liar.

I have never encountered a Libertarian/Randite who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
"Govt is always right?" - RyggTard

Again you try to manufacture a straw man argument in an attempt to justify your presumption that corporations are always innocent.

"Everything is sealed. They wont tell us anything, Juszkiewicz said, never raising his voice but pulling no punches in his defense of the storied guitar maker." - RyggTard

Can you tell us when criminal investigators have ever been required to inform an suspect in a criminal investigation the details and evidence they have against the suspect?

Poor dishonest, Stupid, RyggTard.

Add criminal investigation to the long list of things he knows nothing about.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
Senate: 1 Republicans voted no, 52 voted yes.
House: 5 Republicans voted no, 207 voted yes.

Can you tell us why this Republican Bill passed by both a Republican Senate and a Republican House, and promoted by Libertarian propaganda groups like Cato (Koch), and the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the other Libertarian propaganda groups, would turn out to be such a disaster for America?
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 18, 2011
The same govt that raids a guitar factory sells weapons to Mexican drug dealers to kill US agents.
What a regime!
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
"The same govt that raids a guitar factory sells weapons to Mexican drug dealers to kill US agents." - RyggTard

(CBS) In Phoenix Monday, a gun dealer went on trial for supplying assault rifles to Mexican drug gangs who are locked in a bloody war with authorities -- and each other. CBS News correspondent Ben Tracy reports on a case that's being watched closely in both the United States, and in Mexico.

In the escalating drug war south of the border, Mexican cartels supply the drugs, but the guns largely come from the United States.

"Firearms trafficking to Mexico is a huge problem," says Phoenix ATF agent William Newell. "Drugs go north, guns come south."

George Iknadosian is accused of being a top gun-supplier. When government agents raided his Phoenix gun shop last May, they found hundreds of weapons allegedly destined for Mexico.

Cont...
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
George Iknadosian is accused of being a top gun-supplier. When government agents raided his Phoenix gun shop last May, they found hundreds of weapons allegedly destined for Mexico. He's now on trial, accused of knowingly selling more than 700 guns to so-called straw buyers - U.S. citizens who buy the guns legally and then turn them over to a trafficker.

...

As many as 2,000 firearms are believed to cross the border into Mexico every day. And they are often assault weapons,
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
A.T.F. officials estimate 90 percent of the weapons recovered in Mexico come from dealers north of the border.

In 2007, the firearms agency traced 2,400 weapons seized in Mexico back to dealers in the United States, and 1,800 of those came from dealers operating in the four states along the border, with Texas first, followed by California, Arizona and New Mexico.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
Republicans implicated in sale of weapons to Mexico.

The Republican-led Congressional witch-hunt to pin blame for ATFs failed Fast and Furious operation on high-level Obama administration officials may well come full circle back to Congress itself.
Documents released by Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, as part of his probe into Fast and Furious, as well as testimony provided to Congress prior to the launch of the flawed operation, all seem to indicate that the weapons-trafficking investigation was set up under a strategy pushed by former U.S. Attorney General David Ogden who stepped down from his post in early 2010 after less than a year on the job.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
In addition, Ogden actually publicly outlined the strategy that prompted Fast and Furious as part of testimony he provided to the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Government Affairs in March 2009 some six months prior to the launch of Fast and Furious in the fall of that year.
Fast and Furious was, according to a July 11 letter penned by U.S. Sen. Charles Grassley and U.S. Rep. Darrell Issa, R-California, an Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force [OCDETF] prosecutor-led strike force case operated out of the U.S. Attorneys Office in Phoenix.
Fast and Furious has come under fire because, as part of a strategy aimed at targeting higher-ups in the weapons- and narco-trafficking business, it allegedly allowed some 2,000 or more firearms illegally purchased in the U.S. to walk (or be smuggled under ATFs watch) across the border, where they helped to fuel the murder rate in Mexico, ATF whistleblowers contend.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 18, 2011
The strategy outlined in the document attached to the e-mail from Ogdens office dovetails with a briefing paper prepared by the ATF Phoenix Field Division in January 2009 that discusses the tactics being used to implement the strategy. Fast and Furious was directed out of ATFs Phoenix Field Division headquarters.

...

The intent of Fast and Furious was to allow illegal straw purchasers to buy guns so ATF agents could follow the weapons and ferret out gun-smuggling routes into Mexico. But many of the approximately 1,700 weapons eluded tracing some even before they were shipped over the border.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (12) Sep 18, 2011
"In the fall of 2009, ATF agents installed a secret phone line and hidden cameras in a ceiling panel and wall at Andre Howard's Lone Wolf gun store. They gave him one basic instruction: Sell guns to every illegal purchaser who walks through the door."
"For 15 months, Howard did as he was told. To customers with phony IDs or wads of cash he normally would have turned away, he sold pistols, rifles and semiautomatics. He was assured by the ATF that they would follow the guns, and that the surveillance would lead the agents to the violent Mexican drug cartels on the Southwest border."
"n Glendale, after two decades in business, Howard is thinking about closing his Lone Wolf gun store. He also has second thoughts about helping law enforcement.

"Was I betrayed?" he said. "Absolutely yes.""
http://articles.l...110912/2
Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (9) Sep 18, 2011
So at worst the ATF - with the knowledge of Congressional Republicans - sold 1,700 weapons to American gun smugglers in an attempt to trace them to Mexican drug cartels in an environment where American Businessmen are illegally selling and smuggling roughly 2,000 guns PER DAY to the Drug Cartels of Mexico.

American businesses are therefore illegally selling over 429 times the number of weapons that the ATF sold as part of it's plan to shut down the illegal export of weapons to Mexico.

Proven Liar RyggTard of course has chosen to focus the massive illegal export of Guns by business and focus on the 0.2 percent
sold by Da Gubderment.

I have never encountered a Libertarian/Randite who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.1 / 5 (7) Sep 18, 2011
ryggesogn2 is a congenital liar. Proven many times now.

All Libertarians are.

ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (12) Sep 18, 2011
Whether the govt fails to enforce the law, ignores the law, or breaks the law itself, the govt FAILED regardless of who is in Congress or who is president.
Yet VD defends the failures of ATF, ICE, SEC, FDIC, .....to enforce the laws.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.8 / 5 (10) Sep 19, 2011
"Whether the govt fails to enforce the law, ignores the law, or breaks the law itself, the govt FAILED..." - RyggTard

Failed to prevent Criminal American businesses from selling weapons to criminal Mexican Drug gangs.

Sales that Libertarians would Legalize, in an America with open, undefended borders in which anyone and everyone would be welcome to stay and compete with Americans for Labor unprotected from corporate excess through the effective abolition of union protection and workers rights.

Ahhhhhhh The destruction of every first world nation - a Libertarian Paradise, as expressed by Ryggsong2... Proven Congenital Liar and pro-corporate Fascist.

I have never encountered a Libertarian/Randite who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (7) Sep 19, 2011
Senate: 1 Republicans voted no, 52 voted yes.
House: 5 Republicans voted no, 207 voted yes.

Can you tell us why this Republican Bill passed by both a Republican Senate and a Republican House, and promoted by Libertarian propaganda groups like Cato (Koch), and the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the other Libertarian propaganda groups, would turn out to be such a disaster for America?
Cin5456
3.7 / 5 (6) Sep 19, 2011
1) "The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers' Texas unit wrote to the EPA on June 16 on behalf of its 23,000 members. IBEW executive Jonathan Gardner warned that EPA red tape "directly would jeopardize the jobs of approximately 1,500 IBEW members working at six different power plants across the state of Texas."

I wouldn't be too worried about Texas energy company workers. They will be taken care of by their corrupt employers. The only way those companies will shut down that many refineries and generators will be if they can profit by it.

I used to live in the shadow of those chemical and energy companies in and around Houston and the Gulf Shores. They do nothing about the horrific pollution that is killing thousands every year in that area from excessive smog and runoff from their operations. There is very good reason to regulate the polluters. I had to move to California to get away from the smog that was making it impossible for me to breathe their air.
cont.
Cin5456
4.2 / 5 (5) Sep 19, 2011
2) I know more about those corrupt oil refineries and energy generators than I really wanted to know. The absolutely yellow air I had to breathe could be directly corrected by installation of advanced recapturing systems that have been fully developed for them (financed by government research because the oil companies would not finance it themselves.)

The governments of the last twenty years have done all but hold their hands as they go pee (into the air we breathe.)

All those energy plants have to do is apply the technology that has been developed for them. They wouldnt even have to lose much in profit because the expense is factored into the subsidies the government has granted them gratis.
cont.
Cin5456
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 19, 2011
3) Besides, the number of jobs they say will be lost is not because of government regulation. It is because they have been spitting in the water they drink for decades, since the beginning of the oil trade in Texas.

I lived on the water front for a time, just a couple miles from Dow Chemical in Freeport. There are over twenty corporate polluters in Freeport alone. I looked them up. (That doesn't even count the extensive refinery operations on the east side of Houston, the ones who have explosions that kill workers every few years.) There are too many, period.

The water in our boat slips was so oily that we didnt dare eat the crabs we caught to supplement our food budget. We ate them for a while, until we were told by local boat operators that the oil sheen on the water was polluting the natural habitats of the waterway. We didnt dare eat the fish that we caught.
cont.
Cin5456
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 19, 2011
4) We had been there for three months before some locals warned us that we kids were catching fish and crabs that were not fit to eat. We were only a mile from the beaches, and the sand was dark gray from the chemicals that had leached into the sands. Not many locals went swimming at our Freeport beeches. Only tourists did that.

So dont tell me about energy companies and their employees. I know better. I wouldn't believe a thing that comes out of the industry. They are the biggest liars and cheats in the nation. They profit off the health and welfare of all the residents on the Gulf of Mexico and hundreds of miles inland.

Beside, my stepdad was an engineer for Enron before they changed their name from Houston Power and Light. I overheard conversations between Mom and he that implied he was fudging on his engineering to prevent expenses from rising, or he would lose his job. That's what the employees of energy companies are taught to do. He died from cancer soon after.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Sep 19, 2011
Socialists 100 years ago called themselves 'progressives'.
Then FDR started calling them 'liberals'.
Now, they call themselves 'prgressive', again.
Both terms are meant to decieve and propagandize.
Libertarians and classical liberals have not changed their message for over 150 years, idividual liberty and limited govternment.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (11) Sep 19, 2011
Cin, what you describe is the failure of the govt to protect private property rights.
It's obvious the regulations don't meet the need.
Erin Brockovitch hightlited the issue with lawsuits, but that is the best way to protect private property rights.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 19, 2011
VD is a conservative?
"As for the conservative view that immigrants wreck our culture given a lack of interest in assimilation, the very notion is contradictory. By virtue of immigrating to the United States, its apparent that theyre embracing, and want to be a part of our culture of success.

Of course if conservatives are worried about our culture being sullied by foreigners, they might spend a weekend in Las Vegas, Atlantic City or Foxwoods to develop a better sense of what legal Americans are up to with their free time.
"
http://www.forbes...-work/2/
Maybe the culture VD is worried immigrants won't embrace is socialism.
Cin5456
4.2 / 5 (5) Sep 19, 2011
Lawsuits against the energy conglomerates? You make me laugh with your self-delusional talk. I don't give a S. what you call them. Your political philosophy is ethically and emotionally bankrupt. Libertarians have been living in the world of two centuries ago! Get a new life, Rigor mortis. You are starting to stink up the site.
I hate name calling, but your comment about the longevity of your philosophy drove me to it. Try updating to this century. I'm done with you. Your proved your insufficiency to live in the real world.
Howhot
4.3 / 5 (6) Sep 19, 2011
R2... It sucks loosing an argument doesn't it. Your argument is weak, meaning you are wrong on your logical foundations. You need to become a democrat and have peace.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (9) Sep 20, 2011
Lawsuits against the energy conglomerates?

How well have regulations worked?
Especially when govt regulators get hired by corporations to 'help' write the regulations?
Sounds like you prefer to have big corporations write regulations that limit competition and violate private property rights.
Did you notice how aggressively music companies sued to protect their copyrights and how quickly people stopped stealing their property?
"So, long before the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) came into existence, firms knew that if they substantially polluted their neighbors' water, they could expect to be found liable. To minimize liability, water polluters installed pollution control devices. Paper mills in Wisconsin routinely owned miles of downstream river property, knowing that otherwise they would be liable for violation of riparian rights (Davis 1971, 777-80). "
http://www.perc.o...e653.php
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (9) Sep 20, 2011
You need to become a democrat and have peace.

Give in to the dark side?
From what I am observing, democrats are not at peace and do not act peacefully.
If democrats would give up their socialist fantasies and let go of their envy, they may be at peace.
Howhot
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 20, 2011
You know R2, you have many fallacies you need to work through. First, "Give into the Dark Side" crap. Every point you are trying to make in your last post is crap. If your Democrat or Republican, Black, White, Latino, liberal or conservative, we all live and breath the Red White and Blue of the star spangled banner. That my friend means that to achieve greatness, we have to work together. Your demonizing everyone as "socialist" just biers witness to the fact, that you just don't get the USofA and what makes us great as a nation.

Howhot
3.7 / 5 (6) Sep 20, 2011
Also R2, you mention socialist fantasies as being a democtrats trait, but when I hear a politician pushing a social agenda, chances are its a C street fat-cat republican with nothing else to do but make inner-city people and the poor feel miserable.

That my rightwing friend, is a socialist agenda.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (8) Sep 21, 2011
we all live and breath the Red White and Blue of the star spangled banner.

The Constitution does not support socialism.
we have to work together

Sure, under a capitalist economic system, all work quite well together without socialist coercion.
you just don't get the USofA and what makes us great as a nation.

It is the 'progressive' socialists that refuse to understand how individuals, working in their own self interest, can benefit all, without central state planning.
Cin5456
4 / 5 (4) Sep 21, 2011
Rigor get a Life. This thread is over.

Howhot, Thanks for your fine words about working together. Rigor mortis needs to reread the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Until then he is simply a traitor to the founding principles of this nation. Ignore him, and hope he chooses exile in the near future.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (8) Sep 21, 2011
Under capitalism people work together for their MUTUAL benefit.
They must PERSUADE each other to work and trade together.
Those are the principles under which the USA was founded. NOT the coercive policies started by 'progressives' over 100 years ago.
Howhot
3.4 / 5 (5) Sep 21, 2011
Actually R2, :capitalism people work together for THEIR benefit".

That said, if the world is so polluted and global warming destroys the livable environment to the point that commerce and trade can not happen, there is a problem there. Is there not?

Howhot
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 21, 2011
Here is my issue my R2 friend, there is a very dangerous world killer issue facing us with excess CO2 building up in the atmosphere and stupid shits like you want to be turds in the road to a solution. That my friend is the bottom line.

You need to change you view of the world.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (7) Sep 22, 2011
a very dangerous world killer issue facing us with excess CO2 building up in the atmosphere

That is your fantasy. Millions of years ago the CO2 concentrations was 7000ppm and the earth was teaming with life.
IPCC model predictions of the response to CO2 have not been validated with observations.
But Hottie's response is typical of religious fanatics. When they can't make rational response they make an irrational one.
lengould100
3 / 5 (6) Sep 22, 2011
I've read this entire thread through, and arrived at some conclusions.

1) vendicar decarian's positions align well with fact as I've learned them in my own research.

2) rygesogn2's claims are full of errors, untruths and apparently internalized propaganda.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (6) Sep 22, 2011
vendicar decarian's positions align well with fact as I've learned them in my own research.

What a surprise, not!
rygesogn2's claims are full of errors, untruths and apparently internalized propaganda.

As this is supposed to a site based on science, document the errors and untruths.
lengould100
3 / 5 (6) Sep 22, 2011
Sen. Phil Gramm (R, Texas), Rep. Jim Leach (R, Iowa), and Rep. Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. (R, Virginia), the co-sponsors of the GrammLeachBliley Act.

Passed by a majority in Congress and signed by Bill Clinton.
What deregulation?


One example: Your attempt to make people think that the GrammLeachBliley Act was not a Republican initiative. The act was written and sponsored by three Rebuplicans. Congress at that time was completely controlled by Republicans, both houses. Only 4 Republicans voted against it in the house, 57 of a much smaller group of Democrats opposed. The Dem. president was forced to sign it and make the best face he could, by threat of Republicans overriding his veto.

Need more?
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (5) Sep 22, 2011
I asked where was the deregulation?
Clinton refused to sign unless CRA was in the bill (documented above).
106th Congress:
Senate: 55R, 45D; R-55% majority, insufficient to override veto
House: 221R, 211D;R~51% majority, insufficient to override veto

Regardless of the party affiliations of the sponsors, Democrat support (in Congress and in the White House) was REQUIRED to pass.
Howhot
3.4 / 5 (5) Sep 29, 2011
Sqeeky R2 says, "That is your fantasy. Millions of years ago the CO2 concentrations was 7000ppm and the earth was teaming with life"

Prove it. Prove anything you say, and mean it in your heart.
I'm waiting for you to prove a lie. Come on R2. Prove it! Now!

ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (7) Sep 29, 2011
http://www.geocra...hor83826
"Compared to former geologic times, our present atmosphere, like the Late Carboniferous atmosphere, is CO2- impoverished! In the last 600 million years of Earth's history only the Carboniferous Period and our present age, the Quaternary Period, have witnessed CO2 levels less than 400 ppm."
Howhot
3.4 / 5 (5) Sep 30, 2011
Humm. Seem you have quoted a geology rage. That is actual science an from your point of view, wrong. So again 7000ppm? where is your proof it can happen, how can it happen, and since man didn't exist; why would you want it to happen?
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (7) Sep 30, 2011
Humm. Seem you have quoted a geology rage. That is actual science an from your point of view, wrong. So again 7000ppm? where is your proof it can happen, how can it happen, and since man didn't exist; why would you want it to happen?

Why are you so afraid of something that has happened before, without human involvement? Are you afraid of being insignificant? Are you afraid your scam for political control has been exposed?
Cin5456
5 / 5 (2) Oct 01, 2011
Humans couldn't have lived in that! 7000ppm? You are forgetting the Cambrian Extinction!

The article you pointed to is about the Carboniferous age!
The carboniferous period was so hot that equitorial-type jungles covered the eastern seaboard, along with tropical swamps and excessive water content in the air. That was because the oceans had heated up to the point that humidity was nearly 100 percent in the coal bearing regions along the coasts. There were rain forests in Indiana for 'peats' sake.

The first four legged animals were crawking out of the ocean, probably because the seas were too warm in shallow water!

CO2 was sequestered in the swamps and jungles. Then "CO2 crashed to one of its all time global lows in the Pennsylvanian and early Permian" and an ice age began. This shows clearly that less CO2 means lower temperatures.

http://www.indian...logy.pdf
Cin5456
5 / 5 (2) Oct 01, 2011
"Extinction of plants and animals at 300 Ma, associated with increased aridity and collapse of the Carboniferous rain forest system"
A different set of living conditions existed in the early Carb. period. Humans wouldn't have tolerated that time period.

When CO2 collapsed, the rainforests collapsed too. and so did the tetrapod population. Then with cooler temps biodiversity grew worldwide.

Another report says: "Reconstructions of Phanerozoic CO2 levels have generally relied on geochemical modeling or proxy data. Because the uncertainty inherent in such reconstructions is large enough to be climatically significant, inverse climate modeling may help to constrain paleo-CO2 estimates."

And you should check out this one from Harvard.
http://www.deas.h...2007.pdf
jsa09
5 / 5 (1) Oct 05, 2011
@rygg
Most of them permit the state to initiate violence against those who have not initiated violence against others. These laws range from anti-smoking laws for private establishments and...


Here is one case where you are clearly wrong. Smokers are committing assaults on all those in range of their fumes and thus it would be simple self-defense to stop them. Without some laws giving smokers the extra right to poison their neighbours with impunity other should be well within their rights to stop smokers from smoking near them with extreme force.
Howhot
3 / 5 (2) Oct 06, 2011
@isa09, I like your argument, but wouldn't a the driver of a Big-Rig diesel be guilty of the same crimes as the smoker? So if you live next to a freeway, shouldn't the business be that is making money driving stuff be liable for you diesel related health causes?

I my opinion the diesel should be taxed to pay for every mile of soot it puts on the roads, highways and living spaces that it ends up in.
Howhot
3.4 / 5 (5) Oct 06, 2011
Good call @Isa09. But tell that to a smoker and it like listening to crickets. Addiction exceeds logic, and that is where America is at with Oil. Look at R2 (Oil addict) babble crap about how he has the right to do what ever he pleases at the expense of everyone else. He calls that (Quote: SOCIALISM :End-Quote). Big woopty-doo. If not being a POS is Socialism, sign me up.
omatumr
1 / 5 (4) Oct 06, 2011
Science has been increasingly controlled by governments since ~1971, when Henry Kissinger, Chairman Mao, Leonid Breznev and Richard Nixon apparently agreed to save the world from the threat of mutual nuclear annihilation [1] by

a.) Adopting the Bilderberg model of the Sun as a steady H-fusion reactor [2]

b.) Proclaiming humans cause global climate change (warming, cooling, etc)

c. ) Ending the space race [3] and nuclear arms race

d. ) Uniting nations under one government

Free on-line books may end censorship [4]

1. Deep roots of the Climategate scandal (1971-2011)
http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

2. The Bilderberg solar model, Solar Physics 3, 5-25 (1968)
http://adsabs.har...oPh.3.5G

3. No More Dreams, Mr. President
http://claudelafl...ams.html

4. "Origin of Elements in the Solar System"

http://ebookee.or...099.html

Howhot
3 / 5 (4) Oct 07, 2011
Why are you so afraid of something that has happened before, without human involvement? Are you afraid of being insignificant? Are you afraid your scam for political control has been exposed?

Are you?

The issue before us is do you love this world? Do you love how it feels to breath? Do you pleasure in a bath of sunlight?

I thought so. R2, you need drugs.
Howhot
3 / 5 (2) Oct 07, 2011
Interesting discourse; but first I've been convinced by science that AGW is real, global warming is a MAN-MADE hangover from the industrial revolution, and if we the people don't do something ASAP, we are going to kill everything on earth through stupidity! Greed! And Sloth! AGW is the killer asteroid of our time.

That said, it's a new world that we face when "Old Reliable" is taken out of the energy production equation. There are some very needed industries like steel, aluminum and others that are hugely energy intensive. How can a bunch of solar panels sprinkled on house tops deliver the energy that an aluminum smelter needs? How is the energy collected sent back in such a way the wires aren't fried along the way?

That is the stuff that needs to be answered.

(A dupe from another tread, but appropriate).

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