Climate flux matched Europe's social rise and fall

Jan 14, 2011
A stray cat enjoys the sun in the ruins of the ancient Roman's temples in downtown Rome's Largo di Torre Argentina 2010. Ancient tree rings show links between climate change and major events in human history, like migrations, plagues and the rise and fall of empires, said a study this week in the journal Science.

Ancient tree rings show links between climate change and major events in human history, like migrations, plagues and the rise and fall of empires, said a study this week in the journal Science.

Moist, balmy temperatures were seen during prosperous Medieval and Roman times, while droughts and cold snaps coincided with .

To match the environmental record with the historical one, researchers looked at more than 7,200 tree fossils from the past 2,500 years, said lead author Ulf Buntgen of the Swiss Federal Research Institute for Forest, Snow and Landscape.

Oak rings are sensitive to changes in precipitation, and can show changes according to what was happening in the environment.

"The rise and fall of past civilizations have been associated with environmental change, mainly due to effects on water supply and , human health and civil conflict," said the study.

"Wet and warm summers occurred during periods of Roman and Medieval prosperity," said the study which looked at tree samples from Europe and other parts of the world.

"Increased from (around) AD 250-600 coincided with the demise of the Western and the turmoil of the Migration Period."

A fossilized palm frond is shown before an auction at Bonhams and Butterfields in Los Angeles 2007. Ancient tree rings show links between climate change and major events in human history, like migrations, plagues and the rise and fall of empires, said a study this week in the journal Science.

They could also glean signs about what was happening from changes in how many trees were being cut.

"Reduced tree harvesting (around) AD 250-400 coincides with the biggest CE (central Europe) historical crisis, the Migration Period, a time marked by lasting political turmoil, cultural change and socio-economic instability," it said.

"Increasing for construction is represented by abundant felling parallel to socio-economic consolidation from the 6th to the 9th centuries."

The study said "unfavorable climate may have contributed to the spread of the second plague pandemic, the Black Death, which reduced the CE population after AD 1347 by 40-60 percent."

Researchers also noted that a sharp decline in North American temperatures around the same time saw an "abrupt desertion of former Greenland settlements."

Technological advances have made the modern human population less vulnerable to environmental changes to a certain extent, the study said.

However we are "certainly not immune to the predicted temperature and precipitation changes, especially considering that migration to more favorable habitats as an adaptive response will not be an option in an increasingly crowded world."

Explore further: NASA radar system surveys Napa Valley quake area

add to favorites email to friend print save as pdf

Related Stories

Atlantic dynamo turned up the heat over Medieval Europe

Apr 03, 2009

(PhysOrg.com) -- In the April 3rd edition of Science a collaborative group of scientists from Switzerland, California and the UK report that medieval climate over Europe was heated by the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO). ...

Environmental exodus

Nov 26, 2007

Climate change is the largest environmental change expected this century. It is likely to intensify droughts, storms and floods, which will undoubtedly lead to environmental migrations and potential conflicts in the areas ...

Did Climate Influence Angkor's Collapse?

Mar 29, 2010

(PhysOrg.com) -- Decades of drought, interspersed with intense monsoon rains, may have helped bring about the fall of Cambodia’s ancient Khmer civilization at Angkor nearly 600 years ago, according to an ...

Recommended for you

NASA radar system surveys Napa Valley quake area

5 hours ago

NASA scientists are conducting an airborne survey of earthquake fault displacements in the Napa Valley area of Northern California using a sophisticated radar system developed by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, ...

Aging Africa

Aug 29, 2014

In the September issue of GSA Today, Paul Bierman of the University of Vermont–Burlington and colleagues present a cosmogenic view of erosion, relief generation, and the age of faulting in southernmost Africa ...

NASA animation shows Hurricane Marie winding down

Aug 29, 2014

NOAA's GOES-West satellite keeps a continuous eye on the Eastern Pacific and has been covering Hurricane Marie since birth. NASA's GOES Project uses NOAA data and creates animations and did so to show the end of Hurricane ...

User comments : 98

Adjust slider to filter visible comments by rank

Display comments: newest first

omatumr
2.1 / 5 (17) Jan 14, 2011
We are "certainly not immune to . . . temperature and precipitation changes," but we do seem to be "immune to the predicted temperature" changes of Al Gore and the UN's IPCC .

ryggesogn2
2.7 / 5 (12) Jan 14, 2011
"Moist, balmy temperatures were seen during prosperous Medieval and Roman times, "
So what's the problem with a warmer climate?

"1816, known as the “year without a summer.” Tamboran gloom may have even played a part in the creation of one of the 19th century’s most enduring fictional characters, Dr. Frankenstein’s monster."
http:/www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/blast.html
sstritt
3.3 / 5 (12) Jan 14, 2011
Hastily written. They obviously omitted the final paragraph which would have warned that, although past warming events coincided with prosperous civilizations, the currently forecast warming event will be completely different and we're all gonna die.
bbd
2.2 / 5 (13) Jan 14, 2011
Hold on now ... if the Law of AGW is applied here, we should find that the prosperous Medieval and Roman times CAUSED the moist, balmy temperatures. Similarly, the mass migrations caused droughts and cold snaps. Clearly a call for more research funding is at hand here.
Caliban
4.3 / 5 (11) Jan 14, 2011
Nothing even remotely controversial about the content of this article- the reporting follows well-established fact connecting the vagaries of climate and its impact on humanity. Right here in the US, the Anasazi culture was devastated by a prolonged drought. In S. America, the impetus for the establishment of what became the Inca Empire was an effort to assure food supply during(primarily) climate/weather imposed lean years.

Heck, omatumr was probably a wet-behind-the-ears young'in during the good ol' Dustbowl of recent American memory.

Unfortunately, you 'uns confuse climate variability with climate CHANGE. But, since ya ain't yet understood it for the entire time that I've been entertaining meself here at physorg, then I don't spose there's any reason to spect any of ya to figger it out now, all-of-a-sudden like.

Skeptic_Heretic
3 / 5 (12) Jan 15, 2011
So now the denialists are going to accept the use of tree ring data to support the MWP.

Oh the irony....

Great work by the paper establishing the impact of climatological change upon societiy by matching established science with historical record.
Skeptic_Heretic
3.3 / 5 (12) Jan 15, 2011
Just so this makes sense to you guys above, as a hypothetical, say you have two fireplaces in your house. If one fireplace is at a constant level, you can control the heat of your house by raising or lowering the other fireplace temperature.

Let's call fireplace 1 CO2. Let's call fireplace 2 The Sun.

So if your CO2 level remains relatively constant, changes in the solar irradiance will be the main driver in the temperature. If the sun remains relatively constant, CO2 will be the main driver of climate.

We know from the data that CO2 has been rising rapidly since the 70's due to man made emissions of CO2. We know from the data that the sun has remained relatively constant in output since the 70's. What does that tell you guys?
geokstr
2.5 / 5 (11) Jan 15, 2011
Moist, balmy temperatures were seen during prosperous Medieval and Roman times...

Another inconvenient truth.
Skeptic_Heretic
3 / 5 (10) Jan 15, 2011
Moist, balmy temperatures were seen during prosperous Medieval and Roman times...

Another inconvenient truth.

Not in the least. Constant CO2 and a strong solar maximum with high sunspot activity and greater irradiance completely confirms the statement I made above. Now that the sun is at a relative low in activity and ramping up to another max we're going to see the exact same implications, when adding for volcanism and relative increase or decrease in dimming we'll get accurate matching predictions, thus adding even more evidence to the theory.

You are mounting a self defeating argument.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Jan 15, 2011
We were collection IR data in a lab and needed to know the CO2 concentration to know the energy loss.
It was measured to be >600ppm, much higher than atm.
If CO2 traps so much heat, then buildings should keep artificially high CO2 levels to lower the heating costs.
Skeptic_Heretic
3.5 / 5 (8) Jan 15, 2011
We were collection IR data in a lab and needed to know the CO2 concentration to know the energy loss.
It was measured to be >600ppm, much higher than atm.
If CO2 traps so much heat, then buildings should keep artificially high CO2 levels to lower the heating costs.

Should we spray foam the sky so we can have an apt comparison?
ted208
2.3 / 5 (9) Jan 16, 2011
The worm is turning, another article that doesn't mention Global warming or Climate change in relationship to the boggyman gas CO2. The AGW alarmist are starting to cover their rear ends. The simple fact is this has all been documented not only in tree ring data but as recorded history of the events as they unfolded. Any decent Encyclopedia or history Student knew these things without any climate scientist being involved.
It's a pity the UN IPPC never mentioned the Roman warming in the AR4 report, I wonder why?

Earths climate is always changing and no amount of warmongering or CO2 tax and reduction schemes are going to change this very simple fact. So get over it and start doing something positive for the preservation of the planets species, overpopulation, overfishing, the oceans and land for a change instead of constantly bullying us over a harmless and beneficial gas. The wasting trillions of dollars on social engineering projects, that enrich a few leaving the rest of us poorer!
Decimatus
5 / 5 (2) Jan 16, 2011
We should burn all the trees down as an experiment to prove or disprove global warming.

When we are out of trees, we can dig up all the old plant matter we can find and burn that too.

And when we run out of that, we are going to have to build giant mirrors in space to reflect more sun at the earth.

Only then can we prove whether or not mankind can affect it's ecosystem.
brianlmerritt
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 17, 2011
I went onto Hans Roslings wonderful site and compared mobile phone penetration per 100 people to life expectancy. I was amazed to learn that high concentrations of mobile phones lead to a statistically significant longer life.

That of course proves nothing - wealth, improved health facilities, peace etc have more effect and mobile phone penetration is just a symptom.

The point of this rambling? Those who believe in climate change will tend to filter in one direction, those who don't will filter in another. This is good - without bias there is only uncontrolled "what the universe throws at us" change.

In 50 years time we will have a better idea who was right, and to what extent. In the meantime we are in an old trireme, with one side rowing forward and the other backward, and to be honest as sea trips go this one is getting pretty monotonous...
Caliban
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 17, 2011
I went onto Hans Roslings wonderful site and compared [...] This is good - without bias there is only uncontrolled "what the universe throws at us" change.

In 50 years time we will have a better idea who was right, and to what extent. In the meantime we are in an old trireme, with one side rowing forward and the other backward, and to be honest as sea trips go this one is getting pretty monotonous...


@brian,

I like the somewhat bored, offhand tone of your philosophising. And, for as far as it goes, I believe your conclusion to be roughly correct.

However, one concept is notably absent from your musings, and, indeed, is the only concept that gives any relevance to the AGW debate in the first place, that being the presence of a "tipping point", past which no corrections to human activity could be made to avoid calamity.

Or, to use your own metaphor(embellished somewhat) the EDGE OF THE WORLD over which your trireme is ineluctably set to drift...

geokstr
1.7 / 5 (6) Jan 17, 2011
In 50 years time we will have a better idea who was right, and to what extent.

That's the most reasonable thing I've seen on this issue in a long time. The only problem with it is that the side that is screaming about the sky falling is in a position of power now, and is demanding that we crash our economies and decimate our populations now, before we know for sure what the hell is going on.

It's all I've been saying for years, that we just don't know enough yet, and there are potentially just as unimaginably disastrous consequences if we do the wrong thing now because of that, either way.
PinkElephant
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 17, 2011
"Moist, balmy temperatures were seen during prosperous Medieval and Roman times, "
So what's the problem with a warmer climate?
Uh... most of the world's population doesn't reside in Europe, maybe?
It's all I've been saying for years, that we just don't know enough yet
That's what every good parrot of the fossil fuel lobby has been squawking, for years.
there are potentially just as unimaginably disastrous consequences
Bull crap.
PinkElephant
3.3 / 5 (4) Jan 17, 2011
@Caliban,

There probably aren't any tipping points. The question is mainly how much of a greenhouse ramp we're front-loading onto the climate: i.e. how steep the rise, and how high the apex.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (6) Jan 17, 2011
"The scientists built a model that showed a storm could last for more than 40 days and dump 10 feet of water on the state."
http:/news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110117/us_yblog_thelookout/scientists-warn-california-could-be-struck-by-winter-superstorm
40 days and nights of rain? CA had better start building an ark.
geokstr
1.7 / 5 (6) Jan 17, 2011
It's all I've been saying for years, that we just don't know enough yet

That's what every good parrot of the fossil fuel lobby has been squawking, for years.

Right. That's all the left has got now, ad hominems and accusations of shillery. No one can ever have a valid doubt about a religion, after all.

What's the matter, the failure of the Chicago Carbon Futures market and its Euro counterpart take your allowance money down with it? Don't worry, mom won't kick you out of the basement...yet.
PinkElephant
3 / 5 (4) Jan 17, 2011
That's all the left has got now, ad hominems and accusations of shillery.
And science.

On the other hand, aside from classic scientific illiteracy exhibited by most parrots, your ASSumption that anyone posting anything that might damage the interests of the fossil fuel lobby must automatically be "the left", speaks volumes of the extent to which your mind has rotted.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (7) Jan 17, 2011
That's all the left has got now, ad hominems and accusations of shillery.

And science.

I thought science was apolitical.
geokstr
1 / 5 (4) Jan 17, 2011
OK, Pinko Elephant, tell us you're on the right, or even a moderate, politically. And be honest for a change.

Leftling.

Next you'll be telling us you voted for Bush, and McCain, and opposed ObamaCare, and oppose open borders, and favor the 2nd Amendment, and don't want to see Fox or Talk Radio censored, etc, ad nauseum.
Caliban
5 / 5 (1) Jan 18, 2011
@Caliban,

There probably aren't any tipping points. The question is mainly how much of a greenhouse ramp we're front-loading onto the climate: i.e. how steep the rise, and how high the apex.


You are right, of course. However, "tipping point" has a much more visceral sound to it which better matched (I thought) the tone of brian's post, while still conveying(at least in the AGW context) much the same conceptual thrust as your choice.
Caliban
5 / 5 (2) Jan 18, 2011
OK, Pinko Elephant, tell us you're on the right, or even a moderate, politically. And be honest for a change.

Leftling.

Next you'll be telling us you voted for Bush, and McCain, and opposed ObamaCare, and oppose open borders, and favor the 2nd Amendment, and don't want to see Fox or Talk Radio censored, etc, ad nauseum.


Georgie,

Sorry, man, but you are asserting a causal link where none necessarily exists. There is no connection between the validity of climate change -anthropogenic or not- and political affiliation.

Of course it's true that acceptance of the science is largely divided along political/ideological lines, but the fact remains that it is by no means a hard and fast rule. Trying to equate the two states is only useful to a point.

Beyond that, assuming that someone is going to be offended or hurt in some way by your arbitrary assignment of political affiliation -what's the point? The facts are all that really matter.

Truthforall
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 18, 2011
So, Medieval warming was true, at least in the northern Atlantic hemisphere?
Truthforall
2.5 / 5 (4) Jan 18, 2011
To claim that there was no significant medieval warming or that there is presently no anthopogenic warming effect are equally urealistic.
But to think that by increasing CO2 concentration from 380ppm to 980ppm can cause running away warming is yet unproven. Afterall we are returning trapped carbon that were removed from our biosphere. It is not healthy to surface lives to keep losing carbon through build up of carbonate and fossil. We will eventually run out of food.
Increaing CO2 and temperature would encourage plant growth, keeping the atmospheric carbon in check and more importantly putting some carbon back into the food chain.
If it is that esay to cause warming we could terra form Mars and gain a whole new planet with very little cost and time investment.
Caliban
5 / 5 (4) Jan 18, 2011
So, Medieval warming was true, at least in the northern Atlantic hemisphere?


I don't think that anyone has ever said otherwise.

Its extent and duration, however, are still debated widely.

Nice try at being disengenuous.

geokstr
1 / 5 (4) Jan 18, 2011
So, Medieval warming was true, at least in the northern Atlantic hemisphere?


I don't think that anyone has ever said otherwise.

Its extent and duration, however, are still debated widely.

Even one of AGW's strongest acolytes here now grudgingly admits the Medieval Warm Period was WORLDWIDE, and that Mann deliberately left it out of his phony "hockey stick" because it didn't fit the dogma. And even Phil Jones, the central character in ClimateGate, admitted that if the MWP was indeed worldwide, that would be very bad for AGW.

But of course, they have an out. It was "solar forcing", the "irradiation" that another article here last week said they were just beginning to study properly. (It is very likely that the sun's "climate" is just as chaotic as Gaia's, and even less understood.)

Mann must have been able to selectively select the one tree whose rings proved "solar forcing" was at a max for 500 years back then, even if he couldn't find one to work for him today.
geokstr
1 / 5 (6) Jan 18, 2011
Lastly, I think they call all these fudge factors "forcings" because they're the only way they can "force" their computer models to get anywhere close to reality.
Skeptic_Heretic
3 / 5 (2) Jan 18, 2011
Even one of AGW's strongest acolytes here now grudgingly admits the Medieval Warm Period was WORLDWIDE, and that Mann deliberately left it out of his phony "hockey stick" because it didn't fit the dogma. And even Phil Jones, the central character in ClimateGate, admitted that if the MWP was indeed worldwide, that would be very bad for AGW.
Who are you referring to?
geokstr
1 / 5 (3) Jan 18, 2011
Callie:

My comment to Pinko was made because he claimed he wasn't on the left. I say bunkum. I've read enough of his comments to know better.

I'm on the right, and proudly admit it. If you're a leftist, be proud of what you believe in. Aren't leftist principles like redistribution of wealth and universal free everything for everybody worth standing up for? But the reason you can't is that you know leftism is being rejected the world over these days...finally.

I can see 2012 from my porch - thank the FSM.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (5) Jan 18, 2011
@geokstr,

Moderates wouldn't have voted for either Bush or McCain. I oppose some aspects of ObamaCare, while supporting some others. I'm against open-border policy. I'm for reasonable gun control, but against gun bans. I'm for free markets, but against deregulation. I'm for meritocracy, but also in favor of a level playing field for _children_.

Yes, it's safe to say I'm to the left politically of where you are. But then that's because you're so far off to the right, just about everyone will be to the left of you.

I don't want to see Fox or talk radio censored; frankly I couldn't care less. I say whoever chooses to submit to all that vitriol, poison, and propaganda willingly, completely deserves all the mind-rot that will inevitably result.

Neither am I all that shocked that political tools like you see fit to stop sucking on Rupert Murdoch's tit long enough to flout your scientific ignorance on science discussion sites. It's all par for your programming.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (9) Jan 18, 2011
Moderates wouldn't have voted for either Bush or McCain.

The 'moderate' is really code word for 'progressive' or 'liberal'.
When you stand in the middle of a road, it is easy to be run over.
BTW, Pinkie, now that you have a socialist guv in CA, cuts in govt spending will be accepted?
Skeptic_Heretic
4.2 / 5 (5) Jan 19, 2011
Moderates wouldn't have voted for either Bush or McCain.

The 'moderate' is really code word for 'progressive' or 'liberal'.
Ad populum fallacy seems to be the only thing you can ever say with any confidence.
When you stand in the middle of a road, it is easy to be run over.
Idiot's idiom.
geokstr
1 / 5 (4) Jan 19, 2011
Hey, Pinko, I hate to have to be the one to tell you this, but the "moderates" aren't on your team anymore. They were politically ignorant enough to get duped once by the empty suit and his socialist teammates, but now that they see what he's really about, they are running away in droves. Or were you asleep this November?

The ideology of the Collective is being thoroughly "refudiated" all over the world, even in the socialist utopias.

I can see 2012 from my house.
PinkElephant
3 / 5 (6) Jan 19, 2011
@geokstr,

Your propaganda outlets have bamboozled you again. The last election wasn't about any "ideology of the Collective". It was about the following:

1) Accountability and transparency, prosecution of fraud and theft, and clampdown on corruption in government, in regulation, and in the markets (Obama's grade: FAIL)
2) Economic recovery -- allowing the economy to reset through bankruptcy, vs. papering over and lying about all the problems, Japanese-style (Obama's grade: FAIL)
3) End to "War on Terror" (Obama's grade: FAIL)
4) Closing Guantanamo (Obama's grade: FAIL)
5) Meaningful climate change action, or at least forceful advocacy for such (Obama's grade: FAIL)
6) Meaningful health care reform (Obama's grade: FAIL)
7) Fiscal discipline (Obama's grade: FAIL)
8) Fair trade (Obama's grade: FAIL)
9) Progress toward resolution of Israel/Palestine conflict (Obama's grade: FAIL)

You believe electing this or that flavor of wingnuts is going to change things? Good luck with 2012...
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (5) Jan 19, 2011
Pinkie, you now have real socialist in charge of CA. Let's see how well he does.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (6) Jan 19, 2011
"General Electric: The White House says GE reached a deal with China Shenhua Energy Company Limited. The joint venture will use GE's cleaner power generation technologies to advance cleaner coal solutions for industrial chemicals, fuels and power generation. GE estimates the deal has the potential to generate up to $2.5 billion in U.S. exports."
http:/news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110119/ap_on_bi_ge/us_us_china_economy
The CEO of GE is a major campaign contributor to BHO.
What a coincidence!
These 'progressives' are making are really changing the political landscape.
geokstr
1 / 5 (3) Jan 19, 2011
Ah, Pinko, got it now. The November election was all about how Obama didn't go far enough to the left, nor fast enough. Thanks for straightening me out on that. I feel, like, you know, so demolished and stuff.

I'm certainly not saying that the electorate was rushing towards the Repulicans, who for the most part, until 2010, were just Democrat-lite, content with big government as long as they got their turn to run it now and then. But it was a total refudiaton of Obama and his leftist policies (i.e., your side.)

Just sitting here on the front porch with a beautiful view of 2012...
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (3) Jan 19, 2011
it was a total refudiaton of Obama and his leftist policies (i.e., your side.)
"refudiaton" is not a word, even if it wasn't 'misspelled'.

Obama's policies aren't "leftist".

And, I don't have a side.
a beautiful view of 2012
Pray tell, what do you see?
geokstr
1 / 5 (3) Jan 19, 2011
"refudiaton" is not a word, even if it wasn't 'misspelled'.

It is now. After Palin took heat for using it, because it "proved" her stupidity to the media, Democrats, leftists (but I tripeat myself), the New Oxford American Dictionary made it their Word of the Year:
From a strictly lexical interpretation of the different contexts in which Palin has used ‘refudiate,’ we have concluded that neither ‘refute’ nor ‘repudiate’ seems consistently precise, and that ‘refudiate’ more or less stands on its own, suggesting a general sense of ‘reject.’

I used it because 1) I reject nearly everything you say, including "the" "and" and "a" 2) it makes leftist heads explode.

Obama's policies aren't "leftist".[/a]
HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa. Sorry, I couldn't help myself. You must be one of those that thinks the NY Times is rightwing. When you're that far out there, I suppose anything to the right of St Karl of Marx looks like a righttard.

And, I don't have a side.

Once again, HaHaHaHa
geokstr
1 / 5 (3) Jan 19, 2011
"refudiaton" is not a word, even if it wasn't 'misspelled'.

It is now. After Palin was ridiculed for using it by the media and leftists (that's redundant), the New Oxford Dictionary made it their Word of the Year:
From a strictly lexical interpretation of the different contexts in which Palin has used 'refudiate,' we have concluded that neither 'refute' nor 'repudiate' seems consistently precise, and that 'refudiate' more or less stands on its own, suggesting a general sense of 'reject.'

I used it because 1) I reject every word you say, including "the" and "a" 2) because it always makes leftist heads explode.
Obama's policies aren't "leftist".

HaHaHaHa. Sorry, couldn't help myself. I'll bet from where you sit, the NY Times is a rightwing rag. From that far left, anyone this side of St Karl of Marx must look like a rightard.
I don't have a side.

Once again - HaHaHaHa
I've read too many of your comments here to fall for that banana in the tail pipe.
PinkElephant
4.3 / 5 (6) Jan 19, 2011
it makes leftist heads explode.
Not really. It merely paints you as someone who spends too much time listening to various forms of idiocy.
You must be one of those that thinks the NY Times is rightwing.
No, I simply know what true leftist policies are like. Obama's policies are pretty much a rehash of Reagan. Of course I agree, compared to the modern right-wing, Reagan would be considered a leftist.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (7) Jan 19, 2011
Obama's policies are pretty much a rehash of Reagan.

So where is BHOs plan for a 600 ship Navy?
Where is Reagan's plan for national health care?
geokstr
1 / 5 (3) Jan 19, 2011
...someone who spends too much time listening to various forms of idiocy.

Yes I have read many of your comments.
...compared to the modern right-wing, Reagan would be considered a leftist.

How old are you anyway, 12? I was a big supporter of Reagan, followed him and his policies closely, and I say you're full of excretory matter. You've been reading too much Media Matters and Paul Krugman. (If you want to pull one of those if-he-was-around-today farces, JFK would be a Republican now, based on his policies. I was around for him too.)

And lastly:
a beautiful view of 2012

Pray tell, what do you see?

I see both houses of congress with big Republican majorities, fueled by the Tea Parties and the concepts that drive them, like lower spending and taxes and smaller government (not the country-club democrat-lite current Republicans), maybe even an R in the WH. Depends on how much Obama runs like a scared little circa 1994 Clinton for the next two years.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) Jan 19, 2011
Has Obama cut, or grown the Pentagon budget? What's the point of a 600 ship navy, when the current 289 ship navy is, according to Wikipedia, "the largest in the world; its battle fleet tonnage is greater than that of the next 13 largest navies combined."

What did U.S. budget deficits and national debt do under Reagan, vs. Obama?

Is Obama's economic policy formulated and implemented by Wall Street?

In all the ways that really matter in the long term, Obama is Reaganesque: he's presiding over the nation's steady progress toward utter bankruptcy and ruin. Healthcare is a sideshow: there was a lot of tweaking, but no real reform.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) Jan 19, 2011
both houses of congress with big Republican majorities...maybe even an R in the WH
Which is different from the Bush II years, how?
fueled by the Tea Parties and the concepts that drive them, like lower spending and taxes and smaller government
You have it backwards; the Tea Parties have long since been subsumed and co-opted by the Republican establishment. Watch them renege on every promise, as they begin to realize where their funds for the next election campaign are going to be coming from. Money has always been the loudest voice and the main driving force in American politics; at this point the ideological circus is just a ratings-generator for the various idiot boxes.

Realistically, I see no change, until the markets force it by driving us into a sovereign default. But given how ignorant and disengaged most Americans are, I doubt we have the collective wisdom or fortitude to make the right changes, when the piper finally comes calling.
geokstr
1 / 5 (2) Jan 19, 2011
What did U.S. budget deficits and national debt do under Reagan, vs. Obama?

Nice selective history.

You do know that the President proposes, but Congress disposes, right? The House controls the purse-strings, not the Executive and the Democrats had firm control of the House for both his terms.

Reagan himself admitted his biggest failure was not getting control of spending. He even went against his own principles in 1986 when he made a deal with Speaker Tip O'Neil that he would agree to tax increases and the House would give him 3 dollars of spending cuts for every dollar of tax increase. Well, as usual, the Democrats lied. Instead, we got the tax increases AND massive spending increases on top of them.

Is Obama's economic policy formulated and implemented by Wall Street?

Pretty much.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) Jan 19, 2011
Reagan himself admitted his biggest failure was not getting control of spending.
Obama will probably admit the exact same thing. He campaigned on the premise of return to fiscal discipline; it was one of his most significant planks.

Both his and Reagan's central failure was and continues to be a refusal to call a stop to balance sheet games, speak plainly to the nation about its fiscal realities, prosecute fraud and punish incompetence rather than hiding, rewarding, and bailing them out.

And I doubt it's a failure of understanding. I believe it's a failure of will, a lack of real spine, and pathetic subservience to our financial masters.
Is Obama's economic policy formulated and implemented by Wall Street?
Pretty much.
Precisely. Now, is it your argument that Wall Street is leftist?
geokstr
1.3 / 5 (4) Jan 19, 2011
You have it backwards; the Tea Parties have long since been subsumed and co-opted by the Republican establishment.

Again, bovine excretory matter.

It does sound exactly like cut-and-paste from Media Matters. I'm surprised you didn't mention the Koch brothers, or Sarah Palin's uterus.

Seriously though, how old are you? (I'm a geezer.)

...a sovereign default...when the piper finally comes calling.

Finally, something we can agree on. I've been predicting for a long time that this can only end badly, with a financial and economic collapse that will make the Great Depression look like a picnic.

From the ashes, whatever rises will go in one of two directions 1) a new relationship between the governed and government, emphasizing small government and individual responsibility, 2) a full out, 1984 style collective, with central control of all aspects of personal behavior.

I won't be around to see it (although it could happen fairly soon). For your sake, I hope it's Door #1.
geokstr
1 / 5 (3) Jan 19, 2011
...a stop to balance sheet games...

That's exactly correct. The left refuses to believe that there is between 100 and 200 TRILLION dollars in unfunded liabilities at just the federal level, and tens of trillions more at the state and local levels. (As a CPA, I know all about balance sheets. Officers of any corporation who did their accounting like this would be in prison.)

But what this comes from is the leftist philosophy of nanny government, combined with the insane incentives that elected representatives have to buy votes by promising ever-expanding gobs of free stuff and insanely outlandish future benefits to the special interests, the largest of whom is ourselves, all while kicking the can down the road to our descendants - in short, socialism at its finest.

There isn't enough money on the planet to bail ourselves out of this.
PinkElephant
3.7 / 5 (6) Jan 19, 2011
like cut-and-paste from Media Matters
I actually don't know what Media Matters is.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the Koch brothers, or Sarah Palin's uterus.
I've read about the Kochs (I think in New Yorker?) No big surprise, really. Don't know what Palin's uterus has to do with anything, except maybe it's what she uses for brain these days...
bovine excretory matter
It's what I read from former Tea Party activists, themselves. Here's a post from one of the originators of the movement:

market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=176569

We'll see who's right, quite soon enough (no need to wait 'til 2012.)
For your sake, I hope it's Door #1.
There are probably quite a few more doors you failed to consider. Your biggest failing is that you're always thinking in extremes and in absolutes. You don't live in the real world; you inhabit a caricature.
PinkElephant
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 19, 2011
The left refuses to believe that there is between 100 and 200 TRILLION dollars in unfunded liabilities at just the federal level, and tens of trillions more at the state and local levels.
Which "left" would that be? The left I know, understands these things only too well, and wants to raise taxes across the board until the budget is balanced and liabilities are funded. (Whether that's actually practical or not, is another matter...)

But you leave out all the insolvent financial titans that populate Manhattan. Their balance sheets are no better, and our Congress actually leaned on the FASB to enact mark-to-model rules so as to allow all the Lehmans and Bear Stearns' of the world to lie through their teeth, indefinitely, from 2008 on out.

What about the 500 Trillion of mostly-fraudulent and/or falsely-valued derivatives floating on the world markets?

What about all the mortgage fraud across the world (and in U.S.): I thought homeowners are the most "personally responsible"?
geokstr
1 / 5 (3) Jan 19, 2011
It's what I read from former Tea Party activists, themselves. Here's a post from one of the originators of the movement:

I can't find anyhing where anyone other than him says he was a "founder" of the Tea Party movement. The article itself proves nothing. I've been saying the same thing all along, that the Republican Party is not "conservative", most of them are happy with big government. And the Tea Party certainly doesn't have the numbers to pass ANYTHING yet. The Rs only gained 63 seats and not all were TPs, and most of the incumbents weren't either.

But you and the other leftists (yes, it's pretty clear you're on the left) will say anything to trash opposition to big government. If the deficits and federal debt and runaway spending aren't miraculously cured by next Tuesday, it will be because the Tea Parties are frauds, right?

Stuff it. It took a long time to get to this place and it will take a while to get out. But it was Progressives in both parties that put us here.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (6) Jan 19, 2011
What about the 500 Trillion of mostly-fraudulent and/or falsely-valued derivatives floating on the world markets?

Buyer beware.
raise taxes across the board until the budget is balanced and liabilities are funded.

And kill the economy.
What they understand is making people dependent upon the govt to buy votes.
Only the govt can legally TAKE OPM.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (6) Jan 19, 2011
Now, is it your argument that Wall Street is leftist?

Yes. That's who they donate to, leftists.
Joe Kennedy was SEC chairman because he was a crook.
Decouple govt power from the banks and you can end this charade.
'Progressive' Teddy Roosevelt was embarrassed by JP Morgan's bailing out the banks in 1907. Soon the Federal Reserve was created and an even larger panic occurred in 1929.
The incest gets worse.
PinkElephant
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 19, 2011
But you and the other leftists (yes, it's pretty clear you're on the left) will say anything to trash opposition to big government.
Heh, if you dared call Denninger a leftist to his face, I daresay he'd probably kick your balls in before he even knew what happened.
If the deficits and federal debt and runaway spending aren't miraculously cured by next Tuesday, it will be because the Tea Parties are frauds, right?
No, but Washington and our political landscape will make them into frauds very easily and very quickly, even if some of them weren't already frauds to begin with.
Stuff it. It took a long time to get to this place and it will take a while to get out.
Yeah... but why does it sound so eerily similar to what Obama and his Democrats keep saying?
But it was Progressives in both parties that put us here.
Funny, I've never thought of Dick "Deficits Don't Matter" Cheney as a Progressive...
PinkElephant
3.8 / 5 (4) Jan 19, 2011
Now, is it your argument that Wall Street is leftist?
Yes. That's who they donate to, leftists.
Whoa. You should report your findings to the Wall Street Journal, immediately! You have the scoop of the century there.
The incest gets worse.
That, at least, is true (even a broken clock is right twice a day.)
Skeptic_Heretic
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 19, 2011
If the deficits and federal debt and runaway spending aren't miraculously cured by next Tuesday, it will be because the Tea Parties are frauds, right?
No, but Washington and our political landscape will make them into frauds very easily and very quickly, even if some of them weren't already frauds to begin with
They've already shown their "Pledge to America" to be utterly fraudulent. Look at Boehner's statements on what to cut.

"Well I can't say I know what we should cut..."
Didn't you campaign on cutting government.
"well. yeah but..."
So it was an empty promise.
"Well I wouldn't say that"
Then what should we cut?
"I don't know".

Exactly Boehner, exactly....
geokstr
1 / 5 (3) Jan 19, 2011
Whoa. You should report your findings to the Wall Street Journal, immediately! You have the scoop of the century there.

Why don't you try googling "2008 wall street donations" and scooping and schooling yourself, both at the at the same time. The biggest recipients by far were Obama and Clinton, both far ahead of McCain.

Only now are they shifting to Republicans, because they can read the Tea leaves. That is after all, what they do.
geokstr
1 / 5 (4) Jan 19, 2011
Heh, if you dared call Denninger a leftist to his face, I daresay he'd probably kick your balls in before he even knew what happened.

Really? And how would you know that, or that he might not be the one clutching his groin? And I didn't call him a leftist, just questioned his authenticity as a founder of the TP.

One of the wonderful thing about the interwebs (thanks be to algore) and also one of the most frustrating is the anonymity that allows little weasels like you to act like big bad tough guys. Denninger or you or SH or Howhot (who likes to call people POS) or any of you wimpy, weenie emasculated leftist girlie men would care to come here and kick me in the balls, I'll give you my damn address and let's go to it. Now I'm pissed.

Really, how old are you? I say 12.

And does mom charge you rent for that room in the basement?
PinkElephant
4.2 / 5 (5) Jan 19, 2011
Only now are they shifting to Republicans, because they can read the Tea leaves. That is after all, what they do.
Yes... those clever, wily leftists.
Denninger or you or SH or Howhot (who likes to call people POS) or any of you wimpy, weenie emasculated leftist girlie men would care to come here and kick me in the balls
An appealing offer, but I'll pass. I wouldn't be calling Denninger names, though. At least, not without first using those marvelous interwebs to find out who he is and what he's about (and yes, Karl Denninger is actually his real name, in real life.)
Really, how old are you? I say 12.
Age is irrelevant to validity of argument. That's why I continue to deliberately ignore your question.
And does mom charge you rent for that room in the basement?
Now that's just childish. If you're as old as you claim, it's sad that you still haven't graduated form kindergarten.
Caliban
3 / 5 (2) Jan 19, 2011

Seriously though, how old are you? (I'm a geezer.)

...a sovereign default...when the piper finally comes calling. [...]will make the Great Depression look like a picnic.

[...]I won't be around to see it (although it could happen fairly soon). For your sake, I hope it's Door #1.


geogeezer,

Too bad for you, buddy. Unless you are planning to commit suicide in the next few months, then you will indeed be around to see it. I hope that you enjoy the view from your front porch then! Unfortunately, you will probably be too busy trying to obtain some cat food to eat, after your retirement income accounts, annuities, et c, evaporate when your freemarket implodes due the corrocive effect of all that toxic paper remaining after your betters(or rather, more-greedy-than-thou) used it to redistribute trillions upon trillions of dollars into their own pockets. How's that for Socialism?
contd
Caliban
5 / 5 (2) Jan 19, 2011
contd
Ironically, you get to share the fate of all the other bad rats that fed upon the hull of the Ship of State until they breached it -you'll get to go down with it. And while it'll be no help to anyone or anything, the thought of the fate of "people" like you in the miserable times to come will warm the very cockles of my heart whenever I have the time to think of it.

So, Medieval warming was true, at least in the northern Atlantic hemisphere?


I don't think that anyone has ever said otherwise.

Its extent and duration, however, are still debated widely.


Even one of AGW's strongest acolytes here now grudgingly admits the Medieval Warm Period was WORLDWIDE,[...]


I said nothing of the sort, jackass -and I'll thank you to refrain from putting words in my mouth ever again.
I agreed that the MWP occurred, but that it's EXTENT(ie, the geographic area affected) and DURATION(ie for how long its effects lasted), were UNDETERMINED, and so still debated.
Caliban
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 19, 2011
One of the wonderful thing about the interwebs (thanks be to algore) and also one of the most frustrating is the anonymity that allows little weasels like you to act like big bad tough guys. Denninger or you or SH or Howhot (who likes to call people POS) or any of you wimpy, weenie emasculated leftist girlie men would care to come here and kick me in the balls, I'll give you my damn address and let's go to it. Now I'm pissed


georgie,

Stop your whining, this instant!!!

If you are so outraged(a state positively soaking in irony) by the sophomoric, inflammatory tone of the discussion here at physorg, then I challenge you to be the first to reframe your comments into measured, civil debate.

If you are decline to do so, then you cannot expect anything less than to get as good as you give.

brianlmerritt
5 / 5 (2) Jan 20, 2011
Row row row your boat
gently o'er the edge
if the ice & snow all melt
throw away your sledge
brianlmerritt
3 / 5 (2) Jan 20, 2011
or if you prefer...

Auntie Em:Dorothy? Dorothy? Where are you? It's me, Auntie Em! We're trying to find you! Where are you?

Dorothy: I'm here in Oz, Auntie Em! I'm locked in the witch's castle, and I'm trying to get home to you, Auntie Em!
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (5) Jan 20, 2011
If you are decline to do so, then you cannot expect anything less than to get as good as you give.

It would interesting to go back and count the number of times SH, Cali, Pinkie, and others have resorted to vulgarities responding to me.
That's funny, Cali calling for civility. Almost as funny as a Chicago pol, who advocated bringing a gun to a knife fight, lecturing the country on 'civility'.
geokstr
1.7 / 5 (6) Jan 20, 2011
Even one of AGW's strongest acolytes here now grudgingly admits the Medieval Warm Period was WORLDWIDE,[...]

I said nothing of the sort, jackass -and I'll thank you to refrain from putting words in my mouth ever again.

And I wasn't even referring to you, slimeball. Go slug it out with SH, and tell him not to put anything in your mouth anymore. You must think everything is about you, but I mostly just ignore your blatherings.
I agreed that the MWP occurred, but that it's EXTENT(ie, the geographic area affected) and DURATION(ie for how long its effects lasted), were UNDETERMINED, and so still debated.

It lasted approx 500 years, and even SH agrees it was worldwide, and Phil Jones says it if it was, it is very bad news for AGW.

Amazing how the dogma you believe in no longer can be debated, but all contradictory or mitigating factors are from shills of Exxon.
PinkElephant
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 20, 2011
@ryggesogn2,
It would interesting to go back and count the number of times SH, Cali, Pinkie, and others have resorted to vulgarities responding to me.
When I refer to you as the clown, that's not vulgarity. It's a statement of vulgar fact. (What happened to marjon, anyway? Was it too much of a leftist?)
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Jan 20, 2011
@ryggesogn2,
It would interesting to go back and count the number of times SH, Cali, Pinkie, and others have resorted to vulgarities responding to me.
When I refer to you as the clown, that's not vulgarity. It's a statement of vulgar fact. (What happened to marjon, anyway? Was it too much of a leftist?)

I said vulgarity. Words the FCC regulates on broadcast TV.
'Progressives' have a habit of resorting to such vulgarity when they can't respond cogently. Emotionalism is quite apparent in 'liberals'.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (4) Jan 20, 2011
Emotionalism is quite apparent in 'liberals'.
It's quite apparent in wingnuts of all stripes. Case in point:
you wimpy, weenie emasculated leftist girlie men would care to come here and kick me in the balls, I'll give you my damn address and let's go to it. Now I'm pissed.

Really, how old are you? I say 12.

And does mom charge you rent for that room in the basement?
*snigger*
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Jan 20, 2011
If you are decline to do so, then you cannot expect anything less than to get as good as you give.
It would interesting to go back and count the number of times SH, Cali, Pinkie, and others have resorted to vulgarities responding to me.
Well we figure that words longer than 4 characters might be a bit tough for you to understand. It greatly limits our available word choice.
That's funny, Cali calling for civility. Almost as funny as a Chicago pol, who advocated bringing a gun to a knife fight, lecturing the country on 'civility'.
Almost as funny as a convicted criminal, Representative Issa, heading up investigations into the current administration.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Jan 20, 2011
It takes 'proggressives' like the Delano's (the 'D' in FDR) and the Kennedy's to really profit from their crimes of running drugs (opium for the Delano's and alcohol for Joe).
It was FDR who appointed Joe to the SEC because it takes a crook to catch a crook.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Jan 20, 2011
It takes 'proggressives' like the Delano's (the 'D' in FDR) and the Kennedy's to really profit from their crimes of running drugs (opium for the Delano's and alcohol for Joe).
It was FDR who appointed Joe to the SEC because it takes a crook to catch a crook.
Going to start posting Zeitgeist style videos telling us of massive crime families running the country? Welcome to America. The most crooked always wins.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (6) Jan 20, 2011
The most crooked always wins.

So that is why you support the 'liberals'?
Skeptic_Heretic
3 / 5 (2) Jan 20, 2011
The most crooked always wins.

So that is why you support the 'liberals'?

That's why I vote for progressive change of the establishment. Why do you reinforce it?
Caliban
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 20, 2011
Even one of AGW's strongest acolytes here now grudgingly admits the Medieval Warm Period was WORLDWIDE,[...]

I said nothing of the sort, jackass -and I'll thank you to refrain from putting words in my mouth ever again.

And I wasn't even referring to you, slimeball. Go slug it out with SH, and tell him not to put anything in your mouth anymore. You must think everything is about you, but I mostly just ignore your blatherings.

You quoted me, but you were speaking of someone else? You are an even bigger moron than I suspected. And so, I'm sure you won't mind if I put something in your mouth to suck -and since you are so polite, and all, I'm sure that you'll have the good manners to refrain from speaking while your mouth is full.

contd
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (7) Jan 20, 2011
The most crooked always wins.

So that is why you support the 'liberals'?

That's why I vote for progressive change of the establishment. Why do you reinforce it?

'Progress' towards what?
What 'progress' can you attribute to the modern state?
Caliban
3 / 5 (2) Jan 20, 2011
contd

georgie,

I agreed that the MWP occurred, but that its EXTENT(ie, the geographic area affected) and DURATION(ie for how long its effects lasted), were UNDETERMINED, and so still debated.

It lasted approx 500 years, and even SH agrees it was worldwide, and Phil Jones says it if it was, it is very bad news for AGW.

Amazing how the dogma you believe in no longer can be debated, but all contradictory or mitigating factors are from shills of Exxon.


So it lasted APPROX 500 years, extent UNKNOWN(your claim that SH says it was Worldwide being complete bunk), and that "it if it" was worldwide, then Phil Jones says it would be a big problem for AGW?

I may have suspected you of shilldom before, but now, that's completely out of the question. Even shills must, of necessity, have at least limited intelligence.

Alas, your senseless, self-contradictory, unsupported gibberish indicate that your are sadly lacking even that rudimentery level of brainpower.
Skeptic_Heretic
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 21, 2011
The most crooked always wins.

So that is why you support the 'liberals'?

That's why I vote for progressive change of the establishment. Why do you reinforce it?

'Progress' towards what?
What 'progress' can you attribute to the modern state?
Do you still shit in the woods and wipe with leaves? Are you limited to several months of sea travel to visit other continents? Are you and I having this conversation in a manner other than handwritten correspondence and letter carrier?

Without a progressive government, the modern society that you have the priviledge of existing within may not be available to you. Advances in our culture and centralized infrastructure are almost wholly due to the functioning of the US and European post enlightenment governments.
And I wasn't even referring to you, slimeball. Go slug it out with SH, and tell him not to put anything in your mouth anymore.
For what? You're the liar here.
ECOnservative
5 / 5 (3) Jan 21, 2011
It's great to see multi-disciplinary climate work like this being done. Studying the 'so what' effects of historical climate shifts puts things in perspective for current climate changes, regardless of cause.

More discussion, less yelling and some civility in these forums would be lovely.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (8) Jan 21, 2011
Do you still shit in the woods and wipe with leaves? Are you limited to several months of sea travel to visit other continents? Are you and I having this conversation in a manner other than handwritten correspondence and letter carrier?

How did govt create the flush toilet or the airplane or email?
Skeptic_Heretic
2 / 5 (4) Jan 21, 2011
Do you still shit in the woods and wipe with leaves? Are you limited to several months of sea travel to visit other continents? Are you and I having this conversation in a manner other than handwritten correspondence and letter carrier?

How did govt create the flush toilet or the airplane or email?
Shouldv'e figured that you're too slow to actually understand what you're reading.

Your plumbing infrastructure
The air traffic patterns and and control system
The internet

All courtesy of the US Government

ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (7) Jan 21, 2011
How did the US govt run plumbing to my house?
'Socailist' Canada has privatize their ATC. The FCC hinders ATC in the USA, not helping it.
And now the govt wants to stifle the internet. Fortunately the govt was not involved in the PCs that were developed to access the internet.
The internet was created by the USG for strategic missile defense. That was not a 'progressive' function of the USG. It was a defensive function of the state.
geokstr
1 / 5 (3) Jan 21, 2011
You quoted me, but you were speaking of someone else? You are an even bigger moron than I suspected. And so, I'm sure you won't mind if I put something in your mouth to suck -and since you are so polite, and all, I'm sure that you'll have the good manners to refrain from speaking while your mouth is full.

If I was saying that you admitted that the MWP was worldwide, I would have said that, nitwit.

More childish homophobic slurs. Does your momma let you eat in her house with that mouth? Oh, that's right, you eat in the basement.

You are the one who started with the personal insults first.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Jan 21, 2011
Corrected: How did the US govt run plumbing to my house?
'Socialist' Canada has privatize their ATC. The FAA hinders ATC in the USA, not helping it.
And now the govt wants to stifle the internet. Fortunately the govt was not involved in the PCs that were developed to access the internet.
The internet was created by the USG for strategic missile defense. That was not a 'progressive' function of the USG. It was a defensive function of the state.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Jan 21, 2011
SH, I didn't know the govt invented toilet paper.
Up there in NH, most of the houses have a septic tank, one step up from outhouses.
On the farm, we had a well for our water and a septic tank. No federal govt required.
Caliban
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 22, 2011
You quoted me, but you were speaking of someone else? You are an even bigger moron than I suspected. And so, I'm sure you won't mind if I put something in your mouth to suck -and since you are so polite, and all, I'm sure that you'll have the good manners to refrain from speaking while your mouth is full.

If I was saying that you admitted that the MWP was worldwide, I would have said that, nitwit.

More childish homophobic slurs. Does your momma let you eat in her house with that mouth? Oh, that's right, you eat in the basement.

You are the one who started with the personal insults first.


geoskeezer,

That there is some top-notch rationalization -if you are an 8 year old, delusional, hypocritical crybaby.

You do a fair-to-middlin' Limbaugh impression, but just remember, if you want to go schoolyard here, that's not a problem for me; but you'll end up running -cryin' and snotty nosed- back to your own mama.

Just like the old days, eh?

DoubleHelix
4 / 5 (4) Jan 23, 2011
Corrected: How did the US govt run plumbing to my house?
'Socialist' Canada has privatize their ATC. The FAA hinders ATC in the USA, not helping it.
And now the govt wants to stifle the internet. Fortunately the govt was not involved in the PCs that were developed to access the internet.
The internet was created by the USG for strategic missile defense. That was not a 'progressive' function of the USG. It was a defensive function of the state.


The FDA. The NHTSA. The EPA. The FCC. The FEC. The Interstate Highway system. Free public education up through 12th grade. Pell grants. Federally subsidized education loans. Medicare. Medicaid. Social Security. Fair pay laws. The 40-hour/5 day work week. Overtime pay. OSHA. Child labor laws.

In other words, screw off. You depend on progressive government every day of your life.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (5) Jan 23, 2011
You depend on progressive government every day of your life.

Look at where this 'progressive' govt has led, bankruptcy, weakness, more poor, less prosperity.
This 'progressive' govt is progressing towards serfdom.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (5) Jan 23, 2011
"Kevin Harley, a spokesman for Gov. Tom Corbett, said Friday that the governor “was appalled at the inaction on the part of the Health Department and the Department of State,” the two agencies that were responsible for overseeing the clinic. "
"Complaints against Dr. Gosnell date back to 1983, according to the grand jury report, but none moved state regulators to action."
"The report details a sweeping pattern of negligence, with no inspector stepping foot inside the clinic for more than 16 years. Even the death of Karnamaya Mongar, a Bhutanese refugee who died after a procedure in 2009, was ignored. "
"The department’s chief counsel, Christine Dutton, defended the agency’s actions to the grand jury, stating bluntly, “People die.” "
http:/www.nytimes.com/2011/01/23/us/23doctor.html?_r=1

This is what to expect from a 'progressive' govt?
Skeptic_Heretic
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 23, 2011
This is what to expect from a 'progressive' govt?
If the Conservatives get their way and try to ban abortion, this won't be an outlier but will become the norm as black market abortion practices spring up putting all women in jeopardy.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (6) Jan 23, 2011
This is what to expect from a 'progressive' govt?
If the Conservatives get their way and try to ban abortion, this won't be an outlier but will become the norm as black market abortion practices spring up putting all women in jeopardy.

No defense for the failure of the regulatory state?
Especially from the VERY 'progressive' Philadelphia govt?
Before Roe v Wade, many states had legalized abortion.

'Progressive' support for killing babies didn't have anything to do with not investigating this 'doctor'? Or maybe it was that is 'customers' were minorities? After all, Planned Parenthood was started by a proponent of eugenics. Or, maybe, like many here who propose population restrictions, the method population control is of little concern to them?
geokstr
1 / 5 (1) Jan 24, 2011
You do a fair-to-middlin' Limbaugh impression, but just remember, if you want to go schoolyard here, that's not a problem for me; but you'll end up running -cryin' and snotty nosed- back to your own mama.

Any time, girlie-boy.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 24, 2011
You do a fair-to-middlin' Limbaugh impression, but just remember, if you want to go schoolyard here, that's not a problem for me; but you'll end up running -cryin' and snotty nosed- back to your own mama.

Any time, girlie-boy.

And its the 'liberal' 'progressives' who are supposed to be the ones promoting non-violence.
Caliban
not rated yet Jan 25, 2011
You do a fair-to-middlin' Limbaugh impression, but just remember, if you want to go schoolyard here, that's not a problem for me; but you'll end up running -cryin' and snotty nosed- back to your own mama.

Any time, girlie-boy.


Noted, crybaby.