Black holes: picturing the heart of darkness

This shows a NASA artist's rendering of  the thick ring of dust that can obscure a supermassive black hole
This shows a NASA artist's rendering of the thick ring of dust that can obscure a supermassive black hole

Astronomers are poised Wednesday to unveil the first direct image of a black hole and the surrounding whirlwind of white-hot gas and plasma inexorably drawn by gravity into its ravenous maw, along with the light they generate.

The picture will have been captured by the Event Horizon Telescope (EHT), a network of eight scattered across the globe.

Paul McNamara, an astrophysicist at the European Space Agency and project scientist for the LISA mission that will track massive black hole mergers from space, helped AFP put what he called an "outstanding technical achievement" into context.

How do we know black holes exist?

"We think, of course, of a black hole as something very dark. But the mass it sucks in forms a so-called that gets so hot it glows and emits light.

Over the years, we accumulated other indirect observational evidence -– X-rays coming off objects, for example, in other galaxies.

In September 2015, the LIGO in the US made a measurement of two black holes smashing together.

All the evidence we have from around the universe -– X-rays, radio-waves, light -– points to these very compact objects, and the gravitational waves confirmed that they really are black holes, even if we have never actually seen one."

What is an 'event horizon'?

"At the centre of a black hole is something we call a 'singularity' -– a huge amount of mass shrunk down to an infinitely small, zero-dimensional point in space.

If you get a certain distance away from that singularity, the escape velocity drops under the speed of light. That's the event horizon.

It is not a physical barrier -– you couldn't stand on it. If you're on the inside of it, you can't escape because you would need infinite energy. If you are on the other side, you could escape—in principle."

How big is a black hole?

"The diameter of a black hole depends on its mass but it is always double what we call the Schwarzschild radius.

If the Sun were to shrink to a singularity point, the Schwarzschild radius would be three kilometres, and the diameter would be six.

Supermassive black holes rip up and devour hapless stars a hundred times more frequently than thought, according to research rel
Supermassive black holes rip up and devour hapless stars a hundred times more frequently than thought, according to research released in 2017

For Earth, the diameter would be 18 millimetres, or about three-quarters of an inch. The of the black hole at the centre of the Milky Way, Sagittarius A*, measures about 24 million kilometres across.

Sagittarius A*—which has four million times the mass of the Sun—is one of two black holes targeted by the EHT. The other, even bigger, is in the galaxy M87."

What will the image look like?

"The Event Horizon Telescope is not looking at the black hole per se, but the material it has captured.

It won't be a big disk in high resolution like in the Hollywood movie 'Interstellar'. But we might see a black core with a bright ring—the accretion disk—around it.

The light from behind the black hole gets bent like a lens. No matter what the orientation of the disc, you will see it as a ring because of the black hole's strong gravity.

Visually, it will look very much like an eclipse, though the mechanism, of course, is completely different."

How is the image generated?

"The technical achievement is outstanding. Rather than having one telescope that is 100 metres across, they have lots of telescopes with an effective diameter of 12,000 kilometres—the diameter of Earth.

The data is recorded with very high accuracy, put onto hard disks, and shipped to a central location where the image is reconstructed digitally.

This is very, very, very -– over the entire surface of the Earth."

Any threat to general relativity?

"Einstein's theory of fits all the observations made so far related to black holes.

The gravitational wave signature from the LIGO experiments, for example, was exactly what the theory says would be expected.

But the black holes LIGO measured were small, only 60-100 times the mass of the Sun. Maybe millions of times more massive are different. We don't know yet.

We should see a ring. If we see something elongated on one axis, then it can no longer be a singularity—that could be a violation of general relativity."


Explore further

Scientists set to unveil first picture of a black hole

© 2019 AFP

Citation: Black holes: picturing the heart of darkness (2019, April 9) retrieved 22 August 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2019-04-black-holes-picturing-heart-darkness.html
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Apr 09, 2019
Try not to be too disappointed.

Apr 09, 2019
Try not to be too disappointed.

I promise not to be disappointed if no picture is presented if you promise to confess being wrong if a picture is presented.

Apr 09, 2019
Try not to be too disappointed.

I promise not to be disappointed if no picture is presented if you promise to confess being wrong if a picture is presented.
............sounds as if you are already preparing capitulation for the worst news possible.


Apr 09, 2019
Astronomers are poised Wednesday to unveil the first direct image of a black hole

Even the pop-sci-fi authors are getting in on the lies as of course there is no direct image but an artistic impression of algorithmic maths gymnastics.

Apr 09, 2019
Cranks are getting cranky as yet another of their beliefs (based on no science whatsoever) is about to come tumbling down! 24 hours, clowns.

Apr 09, 2019
Try not to be too disappointed.


Wanna take that bet, cojones-free chicken boy? Lol. Go away you poser.

Apr 09, 2019
Try not to be too disappointed.


Wanna take that bet, cojones-free chicken boy? Lol. Go away you poser.

Schoolyard tactics, engaged!

Apr 09, 2019
Try not to be too disappointed.


Wanna take that bet, cojones-free chicken boy? Lol. Go away you poser.

Schoolyard tactics, engaged!


Nope, this is the clown who says they won't see anything. This is the clown who lied, no more than a few weeks ago, saying the telescope had been shut down due to lack of any results. It is about time the clown put its metaphorical money where its mouth is. However, the lack of cojones from said clown prevents that. He isn't the only one, mind. That's the trouble with cranks - all talk, no science. And no cojones.

Apr 09, 2019
Benni, one more question if you will. We all know you don't believe black holes exist, and you think nothing of material consequence is located at SagA*, it being in your words a barycenter for all the galactic mass. What do you believe is the cause of active galactic nuclei and the jets of material being ejected from whatever is going on there. Messier 87 is one such example of the phenomena I am inquiring about.

Apr 09, 2019
.........it being in your words a barycenter for all the galactic mass.


Which is trivially false, in itself.

Apr 09, 2019
Cranks are getting cranky as yet another of their beliefs (based on no science whatsoever) is about to come tumbling down! 24 hours, clowns.

Tactical schoolyard rebuttal in 3, 2, 1...
I know you are, but what am I?

Apr 09, 2019
Cranks are getting cranky as yet another of their beliefs (based on no science whatsoever) is about to come tumbling down! 24 hours, clowns.

Tactical schoolyard rebuttal in 3, 2, 1...
I know you are, but what am I?


Makes no sense in any universe.

Apr 09, 2019
Cranks are getting cranky as yet another of their beliefs (based on no science whatsoever) is about to come tumbling down! 24 hours, clowns.

Tactical schoolyard rebuttal in 3, 2, 1...
I know you are, but what am I?


Makes no sense in any universe.

Mocking you, jonesdumb, makes perfect sense in this one and only Universe.

Apr 09, 2019
Mocking you, jonesdumb, makes perfect sense in this one and only Universe.


Why would you do that, when I know far more about science than you do? I'm not the Saturnist-Velikovskian loon.

Apr 09, 2019
I guess it will be shown as viewed close along the spin plane, and there will be some use of false-color to help separate parts - and they inevitably will announce what these parts signify to them right off the bat. It will have vertical and horizontal bilateral symmetry except for the spin effect leaving one side blue-er and the other side redder. I don't expect any countercurrents but wouldn't that be neat. I'm expecting a black circle in the center, not point-like, but who knows, not me, I'd like to see IR in false color in the middle but there is not enough information here. If anyone involved in the release reads this, my 2-cent center bet is off. I guess this is supposed to be like a cross-section up to a point.

Apr 09, 2019
A graphic explanation of what to expect.
https://www.youtu...H3XhpLTo

Apr 09, 2019
I really wish responsible physicists wouldn't talk about singularities as if they're something real. We don't have enough evidence to conclude that. There are other possible conclusions, including stuff we haven't even thought of yet, none of them ruled out by evidence. All the evidence we have comes from outside the event horizon, except the gravity and angular acceleration, and electric charge and Hawking radiation we've never found any hard evidence for. Singularities are a product of GRT in a realm where we have no evidence to show it is correct. It's best to stick to thinking of black holes as event horizons until we have a consistent theory of quantum gravity, and then to see what tests can be applied to confirm or deny until we have evidence to support such a theory. And I think it's irresponsible for a physicist to say otherwise, bleating about singularities and other things we have no evidence for.

Apr 09, 2019
I really wish responsible physicists wouldn't talk about singularities as if they're something real. We don't have enough evidence to conclude that.


Ditto. My understanding is that such things are not possible in nature, and this is what is telling us that GR breaks down at that level.

Apr 09, 2019
Mocking you, jonesdumb, makes perfect sense in this one and only Universe.


Why would you do that, when I know far more about science than you do? HAWW...HEEE.

Uh huh.
"Knows" so much. Comprehends absolutely none of it. Incapable of an independent thought.

Apr 09, 2019
"Knows" so much. Comprehends absolutely none of it. Incapable of an independent thought.


And how can you, with zero scientific knowledge, be capable of 'independent thought' on the subject? I doubt you have ever studied science. As I've said before - some people are so scientifically illiterate that they fail to comprehend how scientifically illiterate they are, and are therefore capable of believing any old crap. You fit that description perfectly. Just another big mouth crank.

Apr 09, 2019
We should see a ring. If we see something elongated on one axis, then it can no longer be a singularity

I dunno. A rotating BH should have an ergosphere that is elongated along an axis (well, two actually. It's squished down at the poles)
If there is a visible effect due to an ergosphere being present shouldn't that then look like an elongation along one axis (since anything visible in the image will be outside the event horizon, anyways) ?

Apr 09, 2019
Try not to be too disappointed.
Why would I? The article has already been forthright about what we can expect: "It won't be a big disk in high resolution like in the Hollywood movie 'Interstellar'. But we might see a black core with a bright ring—the accretion disk—around it."
Apart from that advisory, I've been already expecting a dozen pixels or so, mostly dark-gray, not black. Anything better will be a step up. The excitement lies in what such an image would imply: A very small region known for the sheer, measured, INTENSITY having at its visible center... darkness.

Apr 09, 2019
@anti, the extent of the ergosphere is dependent upon the speed of rotation of the black hole. And that is, indeed, one of the things you can tell from outside the event horizon, because of frame dragging.

Just speculating here, but it might turn out that quiescent galactic nuclei are because of the size of the ergosphere (and hence the rate of rotation), either large ergosphere or small one. It would be interesting to see what effects the size of the ergosphere is predicted to cause. Maybe there's a simulation out there on that.

Apr 09, 2019
see a black core with a bright ring—the accretion disk—around it.

Since the BH would bend light in every direction, then why a black core, instead of a bright one that's representative of the photon sphere. This should be surrounded by the dark region that separates the even horizon from the accretion disk.

Apr 09, 2019
We should see a ring. If we see something elongated on one axis, then it can no longer be a singularity

I dunno. A rotating BH should have an ergosphere that is elongated along an axis (well, two actually. It's squished down at the poles)
In other words, an oblate spheroid; he's not talking about that. He could have been clearer by wording it as "elongated ALONG one axis". But I wish they'd stop using the word 'singularity'. From a visual perspective its altogether even theoretically inaccessible. From a theoretical perspective, I think 'singularities' are metaphysical constructs. I have no reason to think a BH even has a center. Below the event-horizon I'd speculate that 4-space completely loses its way; there is no geodesic. All matter and its momentum, and all charge accrue to the BH as a whole. A black hole not only has no hair; inside its cranium it has no brain. It's nothing but a chaos of quantum phenomena.

An unfalsifiable claim, sure; but so are the others

Apr 09, 2019
instead of a bright one that's representative of the photon sphere. This should be surrounded by the dark region that separates the even horizon from the accretion disk.
The photon sphere merely represents the theoretically necessary circular path light must exactly traverse to neither be captured nor escaped. There's no reason for it to be bright. On the contrary, by the very reason that it's constrained to that perpetual path, it shouldn't be leaking any light at all, except by incidental perturbation, of course. But I'd assume that equilibration would be maintained by input photons = output photons.

Apr 09, 2019
There are simulations of what they might see. Here, for instance;

http://blogs.disc...re-real/

Apr 09, 2019
There are simulations of what they might see. Here, for instance;

http://blogs.disc...re-real/
Very nice, thx . I've been looking for EHT simulations for the better part of a week now. Too many of those Hollywood CGI thingies and the like.

Apr 09, 2019
Still speculation on the details of the reveal, but I'll take it. Though I wish the article had excluded the theoretical discussion of putative singularities, especially since the last paragraph seem to unreadably mash the generic discussion together with a discussion on Kerr ring singularities [ https://en.wikipe...gularity ].

"in your words a barycenter for all the galactic mass."

That is daft, it is like saying that any mass center would be visible as jets. "Oh, that explains it, I thought I had a bad burrito!"

If someone does not know commonly known classical mechanics to the point of knowing about centers of mass and how they simplify description of static or dynamic bodies, what can we do? Is that an example of the US non-schooling so called "home schooling" that the civilized world has heard rumors about? If so, it is maltreatment of children!

So the usual advice if someone has Dunning-Kruger syndrome is to learn *anything* first, like cooking.

Apr 09, 2019
Oh, I am sorry, I had not updated in an hour, and now see that Da Schneib, antialias and danR has ninjae'd me on the physics.

@danR: There is reason to believe it is a quantum object, but there is also reason to believe general relativity describes space time up towards Planck scale. For one, the quantum field description of gravity does not break until then (the incompleteness may have other causes, since such effects are visible at far lower energies).

Apr 09, 2019
instead of a bright one that's representative of the photon sphere. This should be surrounded by the dark region that separates the even horizon from the accretion disk.
The photon sphere merely represents the theoretically necessary circular path light must exactly traverse to neither be captured nor escaped. There's no reason for it to be bright. On the contrary, by the very reason that it's constrained to that perpetual path, it shouldn't be leaking any light at all, except by incidental perturbation, of course. But I'd assume that equilibration would be maintained by input photons = output photons.

I should have chosen my words, better. If there is a photon sphere, then there must be light, outside of it that's not captured, and covers the BH. Hence, no black core.

Apr 09, 2019
Oh, I am sorry, I had not updated in an hour, and now see that Da Schneib, antialias and danR has ninjae'd me on the physics.

@danR: There is reason to believe it is a quantum object, but there is also reason to believe general relativity describes space time up towards Planck scale. For one, the quantum field description of gravity does not break until then (the incompleteness may have other causes, since such effects are visible at far lower energies).
My POV follows more on the modern physics epistomological constraint that if a factor doesn't need to exist, and cannot be shown to exist, it simply doesn't. By comparison, a quantum particle's spin is neither ↑ or ↓ , it has no spin at all until there is an observational coupling with a pertinent measuring environment. Or:
sciencealert com slashh reality-doesn-t-exist-until-we-measure-it-quantum-experiment-confirms

from: 25 May 2015, Nature
Wheeler's delayed-choice gedanken experiment with a single atom

Apr 09, 2019
But I'd assume that equilibration would be maintained by input photons = output photons.

Where would the input photons come from?
- Not form outside because those photons don't have the correct trajectory
- Not from inside, because those photons also don't have the correct trajectory (or - from too far inside - they can't even reach)

And anything that falls through and scatters any photons (upward or downward) will quickly cause the photon sphere to lose any photons in it.

A photon sphere is the *mathematical* solution where a photon *could* follow a circular path. The label "photon sphere" doesn't say anything about whether you encounter few, or many, or any (or more or less) photons than anywhere else while hurtling towards a black hole.
That it looks somehow different than anywhere else is all (erroneous, methinks) interpretation.

Apr 09, 2019
But I'd assume that equilibration would be maintained by input photons = output photons.

Where would the input photons come from?
- Not form outside because those photons don't have the correct trajectory
- Not from inside, because those photons also don't have the correct trajectory (or - from too far inside - they can't even reach)
They would come from the same random perturbations that would likewise dislodge others from ideal circular trajectories. For example, a photon coming in tangentially is tweaked a bit by a stray gas particle that happens to have intruded on the racetrack. Otherwise one may as well ask why there would be a photon sphere in any event; I don't think anyone is claiming the PS is *generating* photons, but I'm willing to stand corrected on this. This underscores the evanescent character I'm claiming for the thing. Theoretically necessary, substantially inconsequential.

Apr 09, 2019
"The light from behind the black hole gets bent like a lens. No matter what the orientation of the disc, you will see it as a ring because of the black hole's strong gravity."

Oh, okay. I can see being a little bit off the rotation plane and that gets exaggerated by gravity. Thought they could fix that to get to a cross-section image, giving some idea of the accretion ring profile. How it's going to be new and very interesting without that I have no idea.

Apr 09, 2019
I really wish responsible physicists wouldn't talk about singularities as if they're something real. We don't have enough evidence to conclude that.

And I think it's irresponsible for a physicist to say otherwise, bleating about singularities and other things we have no evidence for.

It's what happens when you get a scientist who feels it's necessary to talk down to his prospective audience...

Apr 09, 2019
How it's going to be new and very interesting without that I have no idea.


In which case you need to catch up on what they are trying to do, and what it will tell them. And it's new because................... it's never been done before!

https://eventhori...ope.org/

https://insidethe...lecture/

Apr 09, 2019
Wondering which wavelength would capture the picture...
Would that be a true color or false color composite?

Apr 09, 2019
Wondering which wavelength would capture the picture...
Would that be a true color or false color composite?


1.3 mm, iirc. Which is in the radio spectrum, so I would say false colour.

Apr 09, 2019
Wondering which wavelength would capture the picture...
Would that be a true color or false color composite?

They have created a virtual radio telescope. So, it definitely will not be true color.

Apr 09, 2019
In search of black holes and dark matter astrophysicists are relying on indirect observations. It would seem that the measurement of the event horizon of a black hole directly would be a direct evidence. However, by the nature of a horizon, any real measurement of the event horizon will be indirect. The Event Horizon Telescope will get picture of the silhouette of the Sgr A* which is due to optical effects of spacetime outside of the event horizon. The result will be determined by the simple quality of the resulting image that does not depend on the properties of the spacetime within the image. So, it will be also indirect and an existence of BH is a hypothesis.
https://www.acade...ilky_Way

Apr 09, 2019
Wondering which wavelength would capture the picture...
Would that be a true color or false color composite?


1.3 mm, iirc. Which is in the radio spectrum, so I would say false colour.
Did they do it only in one frequency? I was hoping the recent expansion of multi-spectral astronomy might have been used. There are a fair number of multi-spectrum radio telescopes around.

Apr 09, 2019
Did they do it only in one frequency? I was hoping the recent expansion of multi-spectral astronomy might have been used. There are a fair number of multi-spectrum radio telescopes around.


There's a bit here, if you click on 'Observational Technique';

https://eventhori.../science

I've read that they want to add (or may have already done) the capability to go to shorter wavelengths.

Apr 09, 2019
@Da Schneib.
I really wish responsible physicists wouldn't talk about singularities as if they're something real. We don't have enough evidence to conclude that. There are other possible conclusions, including stuff we haven't even thought of yet, none of them ruled out by evidence. All the evidence we have comes from outside the event horizon, except the gravity and angular acceleration, and electric charge and Hawking radiation we've never found any hard evidence for. Singularities are a product of GRT in a realm where we have no evidence to show it is correct. It's best to stick to thinking of black holes as event horizons until we have a consistent theory of quantum gravity, and then to see what tests can be applied to confirm or deny until we have evidence to support such a theory. And I think it's irresponsible for a physicist to say otherwise, bleating about singularities and other things we have no evidence for.
It's "tomorrow"...still very much in agreement. :)

Apr 09, 2019
@RC, I've given you a "provisional" before and you stuffed dirt in my mouth.

That was a bad decision.

Maybe you've got something to say about that.

Apr 09, 2019
@Da Schneib.
@RC, I've given you a "provisional" before and you stuffed dirt in my mouth.

That was a bad decision.

Maybe you've got something to say about that.
I just agreed with you again, mate. So what prompted your enigmatic reaction above? Please clarify. Thanks.

Apr 09, 2019
Your previous betrayals.

Next?

Apr 09, 2019
@Da Schneib.
Your previous betrayals.

Next?
I just agreed with you on something; and your reaction is to bring up non-sequitur misunderstandings from your past? Why, mate?

Apr 09, 2019
@RC, I've given you a "provisional" before and you stuffed dirt in my mouth.

That was a bad decision.

Maybe you've got something to say about that.

LMAO.
Bad..bad...RC. You should know by now, what Da Schitts, the "meat" loving, knob gobbler, likes in his mouth.

Now, go get a room, and stop airing your dirty laundry on the forum.

Apr 09, 2019
@antigorace.
@RC, I've given you a "provisional" before and you stuffed dirt in my mouth.

That was a bad decision.

Maybe you've got something to say about that.

LMAO.
Bad..bad...RC. You should know by now, what Da Schitts, the "meat" loving, knob gobbler, likes in his mouth.

Now, go get a room, and stop airing your dirty laundry on the forum.
Stop wasting valuable/fortunate life/technology opportunities for being a thinking human. Your choice so far has been to betray the marvellous intelligence that nature and your ancestors suffered greatly to bequeath you; don't keep betraying their legacy/nature's gift by being just another idiotic unthinking troll on the internet. Good luck with your future choices.

Apr 10, 2019
Here's one of the multiple live feeds which will be going out on Youtube today, where the announcement of EHT results will be presented: https://www.youtu...0f19czeE

This one's in English, and comes from Brussels, Belgium.

Here's an alternative link for @Benni and @cd: https://www.youtu...Za-70u_M

Apr 10, 2019
Your choice so far has been to betray the marvellous intelligence that nature and your ancestors suffered greatly to bequeath you
Pot, kettle. How's that no-math, word-salad, "earth-shattering, paradigm-shifting" TOE of yours coming along? Just tidying up loose ends? How about a preview?

Apr 10, 2019
@Da Schneib.
Your previous betrayals.

Next?
I just agreed with you on something; and your reaction is to bring up non-sequitur misunderstandings from your past? Why, mate?
There wasn't any misunderstanding. I gave you a break and you stuffed dirt in my mouth.

I got a stick and beat you up with it, and been continuing the beating every time you show up.

And you still have nothing to say. You're an arrogant troll piece of shit.

Next?

Apr 10, 2019
@Da Schneib.
@Da Schneib.
Your previous betrayals.

Next?
I just agreed with you on something; and your reaction is to bring up non-sequitur misunderstandings from your past? Why, mate?
There wasn't any misunderstanding. I gave you a break and you stuffed dirt in my mouth.

I got a stick and beat you up with it, and been continuing the beating every time you show up.

And you still have nothing to say. You're an arrogant troll piece of shit.

Next?
Oh, ok. So, I agreed with you on certain matters, and you again introduce the nasty gratuitous element into otherwise innocent and polite exchange (at least from my end). Thanks, that's clear now. Good luck with that self-made nightmare you seem to be living in, mate.

Apr 10, 2019
@SkyLight.
Your choice so far has been to betray the marvellous intelligence that nature and your ancestors suffered greatly to bequeath you
Pot, kettle. How's that no-math, word-salad, "earth-shattering, paradigm-shifting" TOE of yours coming along? Just tidying up loose ends? How about a preview?
Are you sure you got it straight about who I addressed that to, mate?

ps: If you really want to be useful to science, how about answering the challenges/questions I posted recently when making the scientific/logical point about the non-BB provenance for CMB. Thanks. :)

Apr 10, 2019
Your typical trolling bullshit. @RC.

Sorry, it's not my fault you are a betrayer.

Here, have some more of the stick:

Apr 10, 2019
Thread where @109LiarRC lies about current research into cosmic voids and gets caught: https://phys.org/...ies.html
Thread where @109LiarRC makes conflicting claims within ten posts and gets caught: https://phys.org/...ome.html
Thread where @109LiarRC claims there is "REAL/PHYSICAL UNIVERSAL 'infinity'" and gets caught: https://phys.org/...rgy.html
Thread where @109LiarRC claims Rubin said galaxies will implode with out DM and confuses Zwicky with Rubin:
https://phys.org/...zzy.html
Thread where @109LiarRC claims inflation is a "religion:" https://phys.org/...ure.html

Apr 10, 2019
Here's one of the multiple live feeds which will be going out on Youtube today, where the announcement of EHT results will be presented: https://www.youtu...0f19czeE


Anyone that wants to avoid YouTube, can also watch the live feed on ESO's site;

https://www.eso.o...ic/live/

Live in 6 hours folks!

Apr 10, 2019
@Da Schneib.
Your typical trolling bullshit. @RC.

Sorry, it's not my fault you are a betrayer.

Here, have some more of the stick:
Do you even realise how unheeding and confused you're sounding (again), mate? Are you Ok?

Apr 10, 2019
You'll never get it back until you admit you did it, apologize, and commit not to do it again where I can quote you. And even then a single betrayal will add it to my list of your lies.

Here's the carrot, there's the stick. Your call.

Apr 10, 2019
@Da Schneib.
You'll never get it back until you admit you did it, apologize, and commit not to do it again where I can quote you. And even then a single betrayal will add it to my list of your lies.
Are you ok, mate? Seriously, you're sounding self-obsessed about your own past/present faux pas and trying to 'project' them onto me (yet again). Get a grip, DS. This is a momentous day for science; don't spoil it with more of your creepy DS-craziness. Ok? Thanks.

Apr 10, 2019
And here is the problem with trolling and lying: after a while no one believes you. No matter what you say. No one trusts you. No matter what you say. No one whose opinion you care about thinks you're taller than dogshit. No matter what you say.

You can dig yourself out with as many years of penance as you have spent trolling. I suspect you don't have the balls for it.

Apr 10, 2019
@Da Schneib.
And here is the problem with trolling and lying: after a while no one believes you. No matter what you say. No one trusts you. No matter what you say. No one whose opinion you care about thinks you're taller than dogshit. No matter what you say.

You can dig yourself out with as many years of penance as you have spent trolling. I suspect you don't have the balls for it.
What is wrong with you, mate? I agreed with you on something, and all of a sudden ,your DS-craziness is rampant (again). Please try to keep your DS-craziness out of this thread, especially on such a momentous day for science. Go sleep it off.

Apr 10, 2019
Mocking you, jonesdumb, makes perfect sense in this one and only Universe.


Why would you do that, when I know far more about science than you do? HAWW...HEEE.

Uh huh.
"Knows" so much. Comprehends absolutely none of it. Incapable of an independent thought.


Knowledge of a field of science renders a scientist capable of constrained independent thought. No one with knowledge of a subject is going to be capable of wild speculation -- that is, "independent thought," such as @SEU's wild speculation (on another thread) that an AGN is a life form.

Constrained independent thought is good; wild speculation does no one any good.

Apr 10, 2019
More stick:

Thread where @109LiarRC claims his "non math" approach is both abstract and non-abstract, and both is and is not math: https://phys.org/...ure.html
Thread where @109LiarRC lies about how long it takes a shockwave to move through a giant molecular cloud: https://phys.org/...cal.html
Thread where @109LiarRC lies fifteen times in ten posts and still can't stop, even when told he's being baited into lying: https://phys.org/...h_1.html
Thread where @109LiarRC lies that defining a black hole is "calling it black." https://phys.org/...ole.html
Thread where @109LiarRC lies about helium flash white dwarf detonations: https://phys.org/...arf.html

Apr 10, 2019
@Forum.

And there we go again, folks; the DS-craziness in full flight at the drop of a hat. I just agreed with him on something, and that is what ensues. Imaging what happens if I disagreed with him...oh, that's right, it happened before, and the gratuitous DS-craziness that ensued was just as ugly as it is above. Pity.

ps: One would think that on such a momentous day for science the DS-craziness would be dialled down a bit, wouldn't one? But apparently this unheeding DS-insults-and-projection-troll is insensible to timing factors. Sad.

Apr 10, 2019
@RC looks for victims and whines when they kick it in the balls and whack it a couple times with the stick. Most bullies whine when they get the stick upside the head.

Apr 10, 2019
@DaSchneib.
@RC looks for victims and whines when they kick it in the balls and whack it a couple times with the stick.
So agreeing with you, DS, is now "looking for victims" according to your DS-crazy-book definitions?

Apr 10, 2019
Thread where @109LiarRC lies about galactic dynamics following visible matter: https://phys.org/...rse.html
Thread where @109LiarRC lies about dark matter existing inside stars: https://phys.org/...ion.html
Thread where @109LiarRC lies about what Penrose and Steinhardt said about the Big Bang: https://phys.org/...ark.html
Thread where @109LiarRC lies about fractals even though it claims to reject math: https://phys.org/...rse.html
Thread where @109LiarRC lies about real infinity existing in physical reality again: https://phys.org/...rse.html

Apr 10, 2019
@Da Schneib.

Spamming the thread again to hide your DS-craziness again is not the way to get better, DS. Please do not spoil the day by going all nasty again. Just this once, mate. For the sake of the EHT collaboration's big day. Please.

Apr 10, 2019
Thread where @112LiarRC tries to support EUdiocy (despite claiming not to): https://phys.org/...ion.html
Thread where @112LiarRC makes up stories about another poster: https://phys.org/...ars.html
Thread where @112LiarRC insults a user by lying about what that user said: https://phys.org/...ter.html
Thread where @112LiarRC lies about GR "predicting" singularities: https://phys.org/...s_1.html
Thread where @112LiarRC lies about BICEP2 and gets pwnt: https://phys.org/...urt.html
Note this last thread recapitulates an ongoing claim by @112LiarRC that "four defects" were found in the BICEP2 paper on inflation and @112LiarRC has never said what three of them are.

Apr 10, 2019
@Da Schneib.

Again, please, for the sake of EHT collaboration's big day, stop your craziness and spamming. Thanks.

Apr 10, 2019
@RC - what @DS is saying is perfectly correct - it has been pointed out to you on countless occasions on this phorum that you are a scientifically illiterate, narcissistic-obsessive, attention-seeking, self-appointed phorum "moderator" who has little or nothing to add to any discussion on scientific topics.

Despite all of that, you have repeatedly shown, and continue to show, that you are incapable of learning from any of this, of introspection, of the self-questioning and self-doubt which would lead another, less mentally challenged, person to realize that what they are doing is pathologically antisocial and to change their ways to align with the common good. This itself has also been pointed out to you on several occasions, and you still prove yourself incapable or unwilling to learn from this. We get that you are unbalanced: you do not, and cannot get this.

Is it any wonder that people get just a little annoyed with your perverse and inflexible sociopathy?

Apr 10, 2019
@112LiarRC, you haven't changed; you're still the same lying arrogant troll.

And you will keep on worming, squirming, lying, denying, bobbing, ducking, and weaving forever. That's fine. I'll keep posting your lies forever, too. Unless or until you stop.

Apr 10, 2019
Thread where @112LiarRC lies about "the cosmological community" denying the Big Bang: https://phys.org/...ast.html
Thread where @112LiarRC lies about "inconsistencies" it claims exist in the Big Bang model: https://phys.org/...ack.html]https://phys.org/...ack.html[/url]
Thread where @112LiarRC lies about Standard Model cosmologies "confirming [it] all along:" https://phys.org/...les.html
Thread where @112LiarRC lies about BICEP2 again, still without any evidence of four errors in the paper: https://phys.org/...rse.html
Thread where @112LiarRC lies about "current flows" without sources and sinks, obviously touting EUdiocy while claiming not to again: https://phys.org/...ack.html]https://phys.org/...ack.html[/url]

Apr 10, 2019
@Castro
Anyone that wants to avoid YouTube, can also watch the live feed on ESO's site; https://www.eso.o...ic/live/
Nice try, Castro - and thanks for the link - but if you open that ESO page and right-click on the video area, then choose "Copy video URL", or "Copy embed code" from the context menu, you will find that the embedded video is none other than the exact same YouTube video I linked to above.

But at least on the ESO page, one doesn't have the annoying comic-strip of suggested YT vids on the right-hand side of the screen...

Again thanks for the link.

Apr 10, 2019
@Skylight.
@RC - what @DS is saying is perfectly correct - it has been pointed out to you on countless occasions on this phorum that you are a scientifically illiterate, narcissistic-obsessive, attention-seeking, self-appointed phorum "moderator" who has little or nothing to add to any discussion on scientific topics.

Despite all of that, you have repeatedly shown, and continue to show, that you are incapable of learning from any of this, of introspection, of the self-questioning and self-doubt which would lead another, less mentally challenged, person to realize that what they are doing is pathologically antisocial ...Is it any wonder that people get just a little annoyed with your perverse and inflexible sociopathy?
So, mate, I ask you to address the scientific/logics issues I raised when I posted challenge/questions that pointed out the tenable alternatives for CMB provenance, and all you do is post personal crap. And you call me names? Look to your own faults, SL.

Apr 10, 2019
@Da Schneib.
@112LiarRC, you haven't changed; you're still the same lying arrogant troll.

And you will keep on worming, squirming, lying, denying, bobbing, ducking, and weaving forever. That's fine. I'll keep posting your lies forever, too. Unless or until you stop.
Let's get things straight here, bucko. I have posted challenges/questions re 'exotic'-DM and CMB in more than one thread now, and more than a week ago. So you and all your 'friends' have been the ones ducking and weaving and ignoring and being cowardly evaders of scientific scrutiny of your claims re same. So, instead of again proving that you are 'projecting' all your own failings and bad character on me, how about going and reading the relevant posts and addressing those challenges/questions like men instead of weaselling and insulting while evading. Thanks.

Apr 10, 2019
Leaving the uber self-obsessed @RC to wallow in self-absorption, here's a nice quote from an article on the EHT in today's New York Times which is very fitting:
In a time of lies, a picture of our own private black hole would be something true. The effort to get that picture speaks well of our species: a bunch of people around the world defying international discord and general ascendant stupidity in unified pursuit of a gloriously esoteric goal. And in these dark days, it's only fitting that the object of this pursuit is the darkest thing imaginable.

Apr 10, 2019
@SkyLight.
Leaving the uber self-obsessed @RC to wallow in self-absorption,
I'm the one been urging everyone to calm down; and to wait and see what transpires, instead of being self-absorbed in feuding and other personal craziness wasting bandwidth. So you're a little late to that particular 'party', SL. :)
here's a nice quote from an article on the EHT in today's New York Times which is very fitting:
In a time of lies, a picture of our own private black hole would be something true. The effort to get that picture speaks well of our species: a bunch of people around the world defying international discord and general ascendant stupidity in unified pursuit of a gloriously esoteric goal. And in these dark days, it's only fitting that the object of this pursuit is the darkest thing imaginable.
Very eloquent....and apt. Let's hope all the usual feuding parties here take note and stop their nastiness for the sake of science and humanity. Hope springs eternal.

Apr 10, 2019
I'm the one been urging everyone to calm down
Classic self-absorption, and appointing oneself phorum moderator. This guy is incapable of learning.

Apr 10, 2019
@SkyLight.
I'm the one been urging everyone to calm down
Classic self-absorption, and appointing oneself phorum moderator. This guy is incapable of learning.
So you would just stand by while crazies and trolls clutter up the thread with pointless and nasty feuding over what 'might' be announced, is that it? It takes a community to bring order to chaos in any community. Besides, I wasn't the only one observing/suggesting we should all just wait and see instead of letting the worst and most pointless argy-bargy go on and on ad nauseam. Eg, @antialias also commented/suggested much as I have been doing. So are you now going to berate and insult him too for being a responsible adult as well, SL? Anyhow, just stop the pointless personal animus and just stick to science discourse. Thanks.

Apr 10, 2019
It takes a community to bring order to chaos in any community
This community is made up of people; people are not perfect, so sometimes chaos will ensue. That's perfectly natural, it is to be expected, and no amount of refereeing on the part of one or other member of the group will, or can, change that. Fist-fights can break out anywhere, even in all-you-can-eat buffets: https://www.msn.c...-BBUbkkA !

When chaos breaks out here, WE DO NOT NEED A MODERATOR! Things will quiet down after a while on their own - they don't escalate indefinitely to worldwide nuclear war. Your constant attempts to act as forum moderator actually prolong conflict, but you are incapable of understanding this.

Oh, and if commentators here wish to make a scientifically reasonable prediction of what the EHT will be announcing, then just let them get on with that. This is a forum, geddit?

Apr 10, 2019
So you would just stand by while crazies and trolls clutter up the thread with pointless and nasty feuding over what 'might' be announced, is that it? It takes a community to bring order to chaos in any community. Besides, I wasn't the only one observing/suggesting we should all just wait and see instead of letting the worst and most pointless argy-bargy go on and on ad nauseam. Eg, @antialias also commented/suggested much as I have been doing. So are you now going to berate and insult him too for being a responsible adult as well, SL? Anyhow, just stop the pointless personal animus and just stick to science discourse. Thanks.


LMAO
@RealityCheck
Responsible adult ? You ? Nice one, mate !
The narcissistic disorder is in full blow manifestation today it seems. So you are trying to make peace on the forum now ? How grand of you !

How about you stop disseminating your false garbage for science ?

Just a few more hours now !!! Whoop Whoop Whoop !

Apr 10, 2019
Don't miss it. it is live in less than an hour.
https://www.youtu...Yuy8dwuk

Apr 10, 2019
So, the image presented of the region surrounding the SMBH in M87 - the event horizon - is fully in line with predictions from the math of GR. The ring is about 1/100 light year across, or 650 - 700 AU. Next step will be trying to get a similar image of SgrA*.

The reason the team chose M87* first? Since it's so very much larger than SgrA*, its' morphology changes very slowly compared to the observation time. SgrA* moves/rotates much more quickly, so better resolution - spatial and temporal - will need to be achieved by the EHT machines. But that's already being worked on, as are analyses of polarization of light emitted by the ring, which will give clues as to the magnetic fields threading the ring.

A great result, and exciting times, notwithstanding the foaming at the mouth of the witless anti-science mob.

Apr 10, 2019
@SkyLight.
It takes a community to bring order to chaos in any community
This community is made up of people; people are not perfect, so sometimes chaos will ensue. That's perfectly natural, it is to be expected, and no amount of refereeing on the part of one or other member of the group will, or can, change that.
That is the reason for inventing Police Force and Scientific Method. Your rationalisation for tolerating biased/criminal behaviour reminds of excuses made for Domestic Violence/Child Sexual Abuse for too long. Stop offering rationalisations/excuses for nasty idiots (from ANY 'side') on the net, SL.
WE DO NOT NEED A MODERATOR! Things will quiet down...-
You're in denial/rationalisation mode, SL; the reality is that nastiness/feuds have cluttered/sabotaged/ruined/closed science sites.
scientifically reasonable prediction of what the EHT will be announcing, ...let them get on with that.
Sure, but WITHOUT the nasty feuding would be nice SL. :)

Apr 10, 2019
@kl31415.
...trying to make peace on the forum now?
When you've finished laughing/cheerleading, you might take a moment to consider two decades of the recorded reality on the science forums which you seem to have missed altogether. Until I came along, gangs of trolls ruled/ruined sites, in many cases COLLUDING with admin/mods on some sites. I then commenced a series of Internet Experiments at chosen sites. Those EXOSED and PROVED collusion; which eventually engendered many improvements in behaviour/accountability of admins/mods, as well as shaming many a troll into silence or defensive reduction of trolling; in some cases led to their reprimanding/banning altogether.

If I had not done all that for years (a dangerous/thankless task, because I OBJECTIVELY and IMPARTIALLY took ALL trolls to task irrespective of 'side'), things would not have improved so much since two decades ago. You're welcome! :)

Oh, and I am the one being confirmed correct, not you, @kl31415. :)

Apr 10, 2019
That is the reason for inventing Police Force and Scientific Method. Your rationalisation for tolerating biased/criminal behaviour reminds of excuses made for Domestic Violence/Child Sexual Abuse for too long.
So now teh siensetis are child sexual abusers.

These asshole trolls will say anything.

Apr 10, 2019
There you go, @SkyLight, @kl31415, @Forum. A perfect example of twisting by the DS-crazy troll. Instead of getting the obvious point made (ie, re the excuses/rationalisations offered for far too long for bad behaviour), the DS-troll has been twisting like that and cluttering threads with his DS-craziness. Hence the need for community censure of such patently self-serving trolling from someone who pretends to know better but obviously doesn't. QED. Pity.

Apr 10, 2019
So "biased/criminal behaviour reminds of excuses made for Domestic Violence/Child Sexual Abuse" wasn't something you said?

Just askin'.

Apr 10, 2019
BTW, accusing all scientists of being pedophiles who prey upon their own children added as thread #113 upon which you lied.

I should also note that delusions of persecution are common symptoms of psychosis.

Just sayin'.

Apr 10, 2019
@Da Schneib.
So "biased/criminal behaviour reminds of excuses made for Domestic Violence/Child Sexual Abuse" wasn't something you said?

Just askin'.
So, "REMINDS OF...EXCUSES MADE..." was the CONTEXT/POINT you missed, DS? Just asking' right back at ya. :)

ps: You're a pitiable self-seeking unheeding DS-crazy, mate. Get help.

Apr 10, 2019
You always try to pretend that "context" gets you out of the holes you dig then step in.

You just accused the entire astrophysics community of being child molesters.

There isn't any "context" to that. It's slander.

Apr 10, 2019
@Da Schneib.
You always try to pretend that "context" gets you out of the holes you dig then step in.

You just accused the entire astrophysics community of being child molesters.

There isn't any "context" to that. It's slander.
It's THE EXCUSES/RATIONALISATION was the CONTEXT/POINT, stupid! Just saying'.

Apr 10, 2019
That's still slander.

You are a dishonorable, lying, stinking sack of shit troll for your own self-aggrandizement. You'll tell any lie to "win." About anyone. Including me, which is why you will never gain my trust until you have been good as many years as you've been bad.

Apr 10, 2019
@DaSchneib.
That's still slander.

You are a dishonorable, lying, stinking sack of shit troll for your own self-aggrandizement. You'll tell any lie to "win." About anyone. Including me, which is why you will never gain my trust until you have been good as many years as you've been bad.
Face it, DS, you're still unable to process context and actual points made because you knee-jerk-read and 'see' what you want to see at the exclusion of context and actual point being made. This has been the bane of your internet discourse for decades now, DS, as you NEVER LEARN despite the innumerable FAUX PAS which have embarrassed you so often that you no longer can face the totality of your DS-missteps 'count'. Its incredible how a mind of otherwise promising potential can be so twisted by ego and malice like that which you keep demonstrating undiminished in both strength and frequency. You're an insults troll governed by your ego and malice rather than calm objectivity. Pitiful.

Apr 10, 2019
@Forum.

Can it be more starkly demonstrated? This pitiable DS troll prefers to troll and insult and feud and introduce ever more self-serving twisting unheeding nastiness, on a day in which we should all be celebrating the collaborative scientific endeavour which is the subject of this article/thread. What drives such trolls to be so insensibly nasty even on such a day as this? One wonders what their personal lives must be like. Sad.

Apr 10, 2019
Sorry, when someone betrays me I stop paying attention to delicate arguments. Strong arguments like betrayal have far more weight. Simply admit you are aware you did it, you're sorry you did it, and you won't do it again. Then we'll have it and you won't be able to do it again without violating everyone's trust.

But of course you won't. You'll just claim you always did. Just like you always do.

Apr 10, 2019
@Forum.
Sorry, when someone betrays me I stop paying attention to delicate arguments. Strong arguments like betrayal have far more weight. Simply admit you are aware you did it, you're sorry you did it, and you won't do it again. Then we'll have it and you won't be able to do it again without violating everyone's trust.

But of course you won't. You'll just claim you always did. Just like you always do.
And there it is again, folks, the DS-troll 'projecting' his many and frequent failings and missteps onto others. How long can denial, projection, twisting protect his 'mind' from eventual realisation which must inevitably come to him (if there is even an iota of self-awareness left somewhere under that pile of ego and nastiness) that he has been an unmitigated ass for decades now. The fact that I was the reality-agent pointing out his disgraceful malice and twisting is why DS is so fixated on me. When will he admit the awful truth to himself and just move on? Sad.

Apr 10, 2019
And there it is again, folks
as predicted.

Next?

Apr 10, 2019
@Forum.

Yet another thread ruined and buried by the nastiness from the DS-trolling 'case'. He has no respect for the day that EHT collaboration announced their image of the BH feature in M87. If he had, he would not have again drivelled his own missteps and malice all over this thread. Is there no-one at home to help him stop his obsessive-compulsive 'need' to insult and twist and miss important context/point made? Apparently not. Pitiable.

Apr 10, 2019
Is there anyone who doesn't get that a "point" made upon false grounds is likely false?

Apr 10, 2019
@Da Schneib.
Is there anyone who doesn't get that a "point" made upon false grounds is likely false?
The point/context was * excuses/rationalisations for bad behaviour---of whatever kind*--- DS. Unless you get that context/point straight, then you are just wandering round lost in your own knee-jerk-reading and twisting 'obsessive-compulsive' nightmare maze. Get things straight for once, DS. Stop being such a nasty ass on the net for all to see. Start afresh, with more objective/fair reading in context, and all should be well for you from now on (if you can control your ego for more than a minute, that is). Good luck, mate. :)

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