Germans favor swift end to coal use as decision nears

January 25, 2019 by Frank Jordans
Germans favor swift end to coal use as decision nears
German Economy Minster Peter Altmaier, front center, is surrounded by students during a 'School Strike 4 Climate' protest in Berlin, Germany, Friday, Jan. 25, 2019. (Gregor Fischer/dpa via AP)

As experts held crunch talks Friday on Germany's plans to wean itself off coal in the coming years, thousands of young people marched through the capital calling for a swift end to fossil fuel use.

Many of those protesting were students who had skipped school to rally against , which they see as a big threat to their generation.

Chanting slogans such as "we are here, we are loud, because you are stealing our future," an estimated 5,000 people walked from the economy ministry, where the talks were held, to German Chancellor Angela Merkel's office.

An opinion poll released by public broadcaster ZDF found that a majority of Germans, 73 percent, agree a quick exit from coal is very important. The telephone poll of 1,285 people, conducted Jan. 22-24, had a margin of error of about three percentage points.

Those opposed to a rapid pullout include miners and other workers whose livelihoods depend on coal, some of whom staged a smaller morning protest outside the ministry demanding assurances from the government that jobs would be protected.

The government last year appointed a 28-member panel made up of scientists, politicians, environmental campaigners and business representatives to examine how the shift away from coal can be made as smooth as possible.

Germans favor swift end to coal use as decision nears
Students hold protest posters during a 'School Strike 4 Climate' protest in front of the Reichstag building, host of the German federal parliament, in Berlin, Friday, Jan. 25, 2019. (Gregor Fischer/dpa via AP)

The panel's meeting in Berlin follows months of haggling over the amount of funding affected regions and companies will get, and what the final deadline for coal use in Germany will be.

Greenpeace, which wants all shut down by 2030, said Germany needs to show leadership after failing to cut its for a decade.

"We need legally binding goals for how quickly emissions in Germany need to fall," Martin Kaiser, head of international climate politics at Greenpeace, told The Associated Press. "Otherwise we will crash past the climate goals for 2030, as we did for 2020."

Germans favor swift end to coal use as decision nears
German Economy Minster Peter Altmaier talks to students during a 'School Strike 4 Climate' protest in Berlin, Germany, Friday, Jan. 25, 2019. (Gregor Fischer/dpa via AP)

Germany is committed to an '' that involves replacing fossil fuels with renewable sources such as solar and wind power. While the country has made great strides in that direction—renewables beat coal for the first time last year—removing coal from the power equation entirely is a major challenge .

Economy Minister Peter Altmaier said ensuring a reliably supply of electricity and affordable energy prices were a priority for Europe's biggest economy.

"The energy transition will succeed if we get a big consensus from all actors in society," Altmaier told reporters.

If Friday's meeting fails to reach consensus, a further meeting is scheduled for Feb. 1. Chancellor Angela Merkel has already scheduled a meeting with governors from mining states next Thursday.

Germans favor swift end to coal use as decision nears
Protesters hold a posters prior to a meeting of a panel of experts on the exit of the using coal called 'Coal Commission' in Berlin, Germany, Friday, Jan. 25, 2019. Germany wants to stop using coal, a major source of the carbon emissions that drive climate change. (Kay Nietfeld/dpa via AP)
Germans favor swift end to coal use as decision nears
Union protesters hold flags prior to a meeting of a panel of experts on the exit of the using coal called 'Coal Commission' in Berlin, Germany, Friday, Jan. 25, 2019. Germany wants to stop using coal, a major source of the carbon emissions that drive climate change. (Kay Nietfeld/dpa via AP)
Germans favor swift end to coal use as decision nears
In this photo taken Aug. 27, 2018 bucket wheel digs for coal near the Hambach Forest near Dueren, Germany. (AP Photo/Martin Meissner)
Germans favor swift end to coal use as decision nears
Union protesters beat drums prior to a meeting of a panel of experts on the exit of the using coal called 'Coal Commission' in Berlin, Germany, Friday, Jan. 25, 2019. Germany wants to stop using coal, a major source of the carbon emissions that drive climate change. (Kay Nietfeld/dpa via AP)
Germans favor swift end to coal use as decision nears
Protesters hold a poster prior to a meeting of a panel of experts on the exit of the using coal in Germany called 'Coal Commission' in Berlin, Germany, Friday, Jan. 25, 2019. Germany wants to stop using coal, a major source of the carbon emissions that drive climate change. Slogan reads 'coal free - instead of climate crises'. (Kay Nietfeld/dpa via AP)

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MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 25, 2019
Polling the brainwashed is a total waste of time and money. What can one learn besides the fact that the propaganda is working?
MR166
2 / 5 (4) Jan 25, 2019
Yup Germany get rid of coal and you to can be like Australia!

http://joannenova...ay-hits/
Bert_Halls
4 / 5 (4) Jan 25, 2019
@MR166 is a liar, a fool, and a shill.
aksdad
4 / 5 (4) Jan 25, 2019
Hmmm... Since Germany is phasing out nuclear power plants, where will they get reliable base load power? From Russian natural gas? They already import more than half their energy from other countries. Putting their country even more at the mercy of potentially antagonistic regimes is risky.

Economy Minister Peter Altmaier said ensuring a reliably supply of electricity and affordable energy prices were a priority

Then renewables are a problem because wind and solar are variable and intermittent; not reliable for consistent base load power. Which also makes them expensive when you factor in the base load power plants or grid scale electricity storage (which doesn't exist, incidentally) required to make up the difference when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining.
greenonions1
4.2 / 5 (5) Jan 25, 2019
MR166
Yup Germany get rid of coal and you to can be like Australia!
Yep - cuz MR166 wants us to keep using coal for ever. MR166 does not give a fuck about any one else but herself. Does that remind you of anyone else? Hint - starts with T, and rhymes with lump.
Actually Australia is in the process of transitioning to renewable energy - and around 2 million homes now have solar panels. Pretty good going for a country with only 9 million homes. MR gets all her news from right wing denialist crap sites. https://www.smh.c...jtn.html
greenonions1
4.2 / 5 (5) Jan 25, 2019
Here is a more balanced look at how Australia is coping with record breaking heat this summer - https://www.green...vUXz9Wtt
the only blackouts so far this Australian summer have been down to prosaic causes such as cable failures.
Overall, said Victoria-based energy consultant Jill Cainey: "The Australian energy system is coping with all this heat, but perhaps creaking a bit at the seams."


We know Alex Jones is your hero MR - but could you keep the trolling and misinformation off the science sites?
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 25, 2019
" MR166 does not give a **** about any one else but herself."

The best way to fight poverty is with cheap 24/7 energy. I really do not care what the source of that energy is just as long as it is there.
greenonions1
4 / 5 (4) Jan 25, 2019
The best way to fight poverty is with cheap 24/7 energy
And what does that have to do with accusing the whole population of Germany of being brainwashed? Germans have a good quality of life, and spend similar - if not a little less of their incomes on energy. It is of course a complex comparison - but perhaps the big take away is that Germans seem pretty informed about energy issues - and support the energy transition.
Overall, the Germans spend only a small part of their household budgets on electricity. And as in other countries, the poor spend a larger share of their income on necessities – not just electricity, but heating oil and gasoline as well
- https://energytra...d-to-us/

If you cared about issues like poverty - you would broaden your understanding of complex social issues - and stop cutting and pasting from bullshit right wing propogandists.
Eikka
4 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
If you cared about issues like poverty - you would broaden your understanding of complex social issues - and stop cutting and pasting from bullshit right wing propogandists.


You're guilty of selective comprehension yourself.

The reason why German power bills are smaller is because they use much more gas appliances, exactly because of the high electricity prices. There's a slight of hand going on again with equating "power" as only electricity, ignoring heating fuels.

That's what causes the brainwashing effect. The German public is already used to saving electricity; they don't feel the high power prices immediately and directly in their monthly bills, so they can support unworkable "reforms" demanded by political agitators. Meanwhile, industry, commerce, and jobs suffer.

The demand to ban both coal and nuclear at the same time is a political tool exactly because it can't be met. It makes the government look incompetent and lends credibility to its opposition.
Eikka
5 / 5 (3) Jan 26, 2019
The whole Energiewende idea came from a private research institute (Öko-Institut) set up by the leftists who commandeered the anti-nuclear movement in the 1980's. They came up with the policy of banning all fossil fuels and nuclear energy as a popular handle to turn the public to protest against the government and private businesses - the whole "capitalist system". Hence the alternative solutions proposed tend to be geared towards implementing socialism - like banning private car ownership in favor of public transportation etc. etc.

As a response the center-right governments have had to make concessions or at least play lip service towards the green voters. The green left responds by making ever more ridiculous demands that go contrary to everyone's interests and plain common sense, resulting in job loss, poverty, increases in prices and real emissions - but the point all along wasn't recovering the environment. The point is replacing the state.
Eikka
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 26, 2019
One of the selling points of the Energiewende is the democratization of energy:

In the traditional energy industry, a few large companies with large centralized power stations dominate the market as an oligopoly and consequently amass a worrisome level of both economic and political power. Renewable energies, in contrast, can, as a rule, be established in a decentralized manner. Public wind farms and solar parks can involve many citizens directly in energy production.


That's a good idea, but what they're leaving out is that any one member or energy producing unit in the system cannot operate alone, and the whole system still needs to be controlled in a centralized manner by a single authority: the state. That simply means a shift of political and economic power from the private industry to the state.

And again the whole business fundamentally has nothing to do with clean energy, and all to do with becoming Caliph instead of the Caliph...
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 26, 2019
" The point is replacing the state."

Eikka you have hit Onions political views right on the nail head. He is a socialist that has never met an increase in government control that he did not like.
Eikka
3 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
One in six German companies are now producing their own power, typically from gas:

https://www.insti...c-grids/
When the voltage from German's electric grid weakened for just a millisecond at 3 am, the machines at Hydro Aluminum in Hamburg ground to a halt, production stopped, and the aluminum belts snagged, hitting machines and destroying a piece of the mill with damages amounting to $12,300 to the equipment. The voltage weakened two more times in the next three weeks, causing the company to purchase its own emergency system using batteries, costing $185,000.

These short interruptions to the German electric grid increased by 29 percent and the number of service failures increased 31 percent over a 3-year period (...) These power grid fluctuations in Germany are causing major damage to a number of industrial companies, who have responded by getting their own power generators and regulators
greenonions1
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 26, 2019
You're guilty of selective comprehension yourself
And you are not???? You are Mr. objectivity. Totally fair and balanced? Just like fox new?
The reason why German power bills are smaller is because they use much more gas appliances
There are multiple reasons why Germans pay less in electricity costs - so who is bias? https://www.quora...-America At least I provide links.

The point I am making to MR is that Germans overwhelmingly support the energy transition. It makes you and MR arrogant, uninformed assholes to claim that the whole German populace is brainwashed - cuz you don't agree with them.
greenonions1
4 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
MR
He is a socialist that has never met an increase in government control that he did not like.
I am not a socialist. How many times do you have to be a fucking liar? I certainly see many areas of government control that I strongly disapprove of. I had to pay for a permit - and pay the city for inspections when I installed a storm shelter in my own home. Same thing when repairing my house from some storm damage. Fucking Nazis - telling me what I can do in my own home. I live in an ultra Conservative - Republican state. City codes here are insane. All from small government Conservatives. AKA lying republicans who want to tell me what kind of sex I am allowed to have. Piss off MR - you are an idiot.
greenonions1
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greenonions1
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greenonions1
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Eikka
3 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
And you are not???? You are Mr. objectivity. Totally fair and balanced? Just like fox new?


All I can say about that is, I at least attempt.

It makes you and MR arrogant, uninformed assholes to claim that the whole German populace is brainwashed - cuz you don't agree with them.


The facts don't agree with them. The difficulty here is that people are willfully ignorant of the facts because they choose to put the ends before the means - they're not idiots, that's not what I am saying - the whole thing is just mired in much deeper sociopolitical issues and power struggles than merely how to stop emitting CO2.

In the perfect world, the Energiewende would make sense. In the real world, it's just another political tool, because money and power is at stake.

The trick is that the environment is a legitimate concern, so many people support the cause regardless, because we have to. It's the other people who hijack the cause that are the problem.
Eikka
3 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
Or, as the saying goes, "Every revolution eats its children".
Eikka
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 26, 2019
There are multiple reasons why Germans pay less in electricity costs - so who is bias? https://www.quora...-America At least I provide links.


Your link says exactly the same thing:

only about 20% of German household energy consumption is electric


With such a small portion, the electricity prices high as they might be don't show up much in the power bills of the average citizen, so they are not personally inconvenienced by policies that result in even higher electricity prices, and what social ills it causes to raise the cost of energy, they blame the government and demand welfare and subsidies to fix it.

In other words, the people who demand the change are insulated from their own actions, disconnected from the reality and consequences of the policies they propose. That results in irrational behavior: the policies end up hurting them.

For some this is rational behavior: their intention is to drive the society to a crisis, to justify taking over.
Eikka
3 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
And, the small proportion of electricity usage among German households is also a testament to the failure of the Energiewende - because the point is to reduce the amount of fossil fuels used in the society, but instead it has managed to push people away from using electricity and into using more fossil fuels, particularly Russian gas, which makes for a precarious geopolitical situation.

So while the greenies are patting themselves on the back, congratulating themselves over capturing a greater portion of a shrinking electricity market, the society as a whole is going to hell in a handbasket.

In his humorous treatment of "Systemantics" (composed of system + antics), John Gall introduces the Fundamental Law of Administrative Workings (F.L.A.W):

"The real world is what is reported to the system."

Meaning, what you choose to measure is what is real to you. How you choose to report said information becomes fact to you, and so you end up in grand mirages of your own making.
Eikka
3 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
I certainly see many areas of government control that I strongly disapprove of.


And many areas of government control that you seem to strongly approve of.

The question is whether you believe a government/state can ever be trusted to wield the sort of power that is required to handle complex systems like the decentralized renewable energy infrastructure - without instantly turning it into a device of political and economic extortion against the public.

For example, look at one of the proposed solutions: demand/load management. Framed otherwise, this is energy rationing: giving a central authority the power to choose whether you have power or not.

Viewed from a "capitalist" frame of reference, rationing is a failure of the supply/demand system. Viewed from the "socialist" frame of reference, rationing is social management of distribution. A failure is assimilated as normal operation by change of theory. Which one do you agree with?
Eikka
3 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
All from small government Conservatives. AKA lying republicans


The greatest confusion of people is that small government means laissez-faire in all social and economic matters.

What it really means is bringing the power closer to the community, down from the ivory towers. That doesn't mean no rules or social conventions, values or mores, apply to you. If anything, more rules will emerge when there's nobody higher up saying what you're not allowed to say or think.

That's why minorities tend to be pro-liberal. They see big government as a way to force their local communities to accept them, rather than making themselves acceptable to the community, or even trying to negotiate. It works faster, but creates underlying tensions and backlash from society, and, seeing the "success" of this, all sorts of people are now trying to present themselves as oppressed minorities to get in on the action.
greenonions1
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 26, 2019
Eikka
Your link says exactly the same thing:
No it does not. You said
The reason why German power bills are smaller is because they use much more gas appliances
This clearly asserts that there is only ONE reason for lower electricity uses. This is false. There are multiple reasons - as supported by my link.
And many areas of government control that you seem to strongly approve of
At this point in time yes. You don't? You don't think we should have government oversight of nuclear power plants? Do tell!
My overall political philosophy is very confused. I do support government functions such as environmental health and safety oversight. I think humans have proven to be very capable of being evil - and we need collective agreement to try to moderate reality. Murderers should go to jail - in my world and we need a system to ensure that. It would be nice to conceive of a world where there were not murderers. One in which everyone acted responsibly. cont.
greenonions1
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 26, 2019
But I am reminded of reality - every time I turn on the t.v. - and see how many people were mugged, raped, killed, etc. in my town yesterday. I have thoughts on how we may explore moving to a better world - without all the evil. But they are just thoughts - and I don't claim any certainty. I am certainly not a socialist.
The point of this thread - is that I respect the people of Germany's right to choose their path for their country. I would do it differently (shut down coal - before nukes). But I believe Germany has a better education system that the U.S. - and they are collectively smarter than we are. Shit we elected Donald Trump. I should need to say no more. He is a serial liar, and a thug/mobster. The chickens are coming home to roost.
greenonions1
3 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
Eikka
demand/load management. Framed otherwise, this is energy rationing
Demand management can also be seen as a market process. When demand is high - the price goes up - causing a market shift. Rationing can also be seen as a market process. When there is more demand for a product than there is supply - the price goes up - affecting either supply or demand or both - depending on multiple factors. Sometimes we don't have the option of increasing supply, or choose not to - so then price increases.
I basically support the idea of markets setting supply, and price of products. But history also shows us that monopolies can be a problem - and evil exploitative people/corporations are happy to exploit groups that are economically vulnerable - hence my support of government oversight. Look up child labor history if you are interested.
Eikka
3 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
No it does not. You said

The reason why German power bills are smaller is because they use much more gas appliances

This clearly asserts that there is only ONE reason for lower electricity uses. This is false.


That's pointless nitpicking.

There are multiple reasons - as supported by my link.


Your link says the German household uses a comparable amount of energy, yet uses less electricity. The main difference is that German households use more gas, as supported by your link.

Demand management can also be seen as a market process.


Yes, but that's just taking credit for a system that already exists. The price fluctuation is the undesirable effect of adding uncontrollable renewables to the gird. The system will survive because people are forced to turn their equipment off when the prices soar, but that's still a failure on the basic function of the power distribution system to deliver power at reasonable prices to those who need it.
Eikka
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 26, 2019
At this point in time yes. You don't? You don't think we should have government oversight of nuclear power plants? Do tell!


If by oversight you mean "no nukes, no discussion", then no.

What you have to understand about the state is, that it's a system much like a corporation - once you elect a bunch of people to represent you, they start to act on their own behalf and form this abstract animal whose goals are first to its own survival, then to the people who pay it. This is abused by other such political organisms in a system or crony capitalism.

A state is best an arbiter of public matters, an impartial judge of a court who does not impose opinion or law - it merely allows the people to make up their own. At worst it's a bunch of meddling "progressive" champagne socialists and lexus liberals trying to think on everyone's behalf, holding all the strings, which then all too easily turns into self-serving oligarchies.
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 26, 2019
Hey Eikka you are really on a roll today.........running out of 5s
Eikka
3 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
The point of this thread - is that I respect the people of Germany's right to choose their path for their country.


The real point is, did they choose it, or were they led by the nose into it?

The question of popular brainwashing is just about that. People in a democracy have the right to make errors in judgement, and in fact they should because the most effective and memorable way to learn that fire is hot is to stick your hand right into it - but you should not fool anyone into learning the hard way because it hurts.

The errors made have long lasting consequences. The political propaganda and chicanery in the guise of environmentalism has put us all in peril by delaying actual progress to actual emissions reductions by decades.
greenonions1
4.3 / 5 (6) Jan 26, 2019
The real point is, did they choose it, or were they led by the nose into it?
They chose it - and many many polls since the transition begun - have shown that they continue to support it.
greenonions1
4.3 / 5 (6) Jan 26, 2019
That's pointless nitpicking
No it is not. The point is that German's use less electricity than Americans - and this is an expression of choices they have made. They are willing to live with high electricity prices - but multiple decisions in their lives meaning their overall cost is lower. They have smaller more efficient homes, less appliances, etc. - as well as using more gas for heating. I also use gas for heating. Sorry the point is lost on you.
Eikka
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 26, 2019
we need collective agreement to try to moderate reality


Such agreements can be made, but nobody really has to follow any.

The human condition as a social animal is a continuous search for ways to bend reality to your own will, against the wills of others. This can be described as a marketplace of morals, where anything you can think of may act as currency.

If you succeed in convincing other people that there exists a collective "we" with a collective will, collective goals and desires, cha-ching, you' just got paid. You now got "currency" to tell everyone how to behave because they are listening to YOU. Alternatively, you could point a gun at people, or tell that God is very angry, or make up bullshit about philosophy, human destiny, make up a monster and tell them it's coming to get them, or pretend you're hurt and need help... etc.

See through this, and all political philosophies become shallow.
Eikka
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 26, 2019
The real point is, did they choose it, or were they led by the nose into it?
They chose it - and many many polls since the transition begun - have shown that they continue to support it.


Yes yes, but you didn't answer the point.

It's not really a choice if you don't understand the question or the answer. People have been led by scaremongering, propaganda, and dubious promises and outright lying into demanding things that are not helping them at all, and the governments have been only happy enough to provide them that in exchange of keeping them in power.

The customer is always right.

No it is not. The point is that German's use less electricity than Americans - and this is an expression of choices they have made.


Yes, they choose to use less electricity because it costs 3x as much and gas is cheaper. This is a "choice" in the same sense as breathing is a choice. You can choose not to, for a while.
antigoracle
2.6 / 5 (5) Jan 26, 2019
Many of those protesting were students who had skipped school to rally against climate change, which they see as a big threat to their generation.
Chanting slogans such as "we are here, we are loud, because you are stealing our future,"

Absolutely clueless to the fact that the greatest threat to their future is their ignorance. It's the reason why the AGW Cult is so desperate to indoctrinate them. So, they do exactly what the Cult wants of them; take to the streets and be loud, instead of staying in school and acquiring the ability to make informed opinions.
Eikka
3 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
They are willing to live with high electricity prices


Rather, they are tolerating it in hopes of a better future, that is not delivered by the means they are sold. They are lead into protests against policies which they themselves have demanded, unaware of their contradictory natures, just as planned by political agitators who wish to change the government.

this is an expression of choices they have made.


Do you know the anecdote of how Molotov got a cat to eat hot mustard?

Molotov picked up the cat, took the hot mustard, and smeared it on the cat's anus. The cat jumped away quickly and began licking the mustard off, as the only way to relieve the immediate pain. Molotov told the others that this was why Soviet methods were superior to democratic ones. The Soviets understood motivation, and knew how to ensure that their demands were met with compliance.


Eikka
4 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
All "political entrepreneurs" or agitators use Molotov's method first, and then dress it up as a democratic choice by pointing out that the cat is in fact willingly eating the hot mustard. Certainly, after a while, it will get used to it and learn the habit of eating it.

The great magic trick is then to convince yourself that the cat actually likes the hot mustard.
greenonions1
4 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
Yes, they choose to use less electricity because it costs 3x as much and gas is cheaper
Right - and when asked - they overwhelmingly support the process. So their choice.
The Soviets understood motivation
We are not talking about the Soviets. Germany is a democracy - sorry that point is lost on you. German education seems to have a lot to teach the U.S. also -
American students scored well below German students, particularly in math
https://mic.com/a...U4m3sLGk
It's not really a choice if you don't understand the question or the answer
And you have done nothing to support the assertion that Germans do not understand the question.
If you succeed in convincing other people that there exists a collective "we"
There is a collective we. You never heard of democracy? Hence WE have elections. The big point is the balance between individual freedom - and responsibility.
MR166
2 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
The bottom line is that if man's contribution to Co2 levels is actually changing the climate to a harmful degree then the Germans have made an informed choice. If man's contribution to Co2 levels is meaningless then they have been brainwashed by the multi trillion dollar AGW establishment.
MR166
2 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
" instead of staying in school and acquiring the ability to make informed opinions."

Personally I don't think that schools teach how to think anymore. What to think, yes...How to think no!
jonesdave
3.3 / 5 (7) Jan 26, 2019
.... then they have been brainwashed by the multi trillion dollar AGW establishment.


Idiotic statement, and trivially false. Who do you think have the most vested interests in denying AGW? Oil companies. How many politicians have they got in their pockets, particularly in the U.S.? How many of the anti-AGW studies are funded by these oil companies?
You've got it the wrong way round, bucko. All the money is on the anti-AGW side.
MR166
2 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
The oil companies have created Trillions in private wealth. The AGW establishment has siphoned off Trillions in public tax monies. Big Difference!!!
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 26, 2019
Big oil and coal have done more to lift the world out of poverty than any other industry that you can name.
jonesdave
3.5 / 5 (8) Jan 26, 2019
The oil companies have created Trillions in private wealth. The AGW establishment has siphoned off Trillions in public tax monies. Big Difference!!!


Cop out. That has nothing to do with the science, and the fact that these people are financially affected by the findings of that science. They are only interested in profits, and couldn't give a tupenny f*** what they are doing to the environment.
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 26, 2019
"They are only interested in profits, and couldn't give a tupenny f*** what they are doing to the environment."

When you say harming the environment do you mean like heating your home, lighting your streets and growing your food?
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 26, 2019
Also JD the myth that AGW has no political funding is a lot of hogwash. It is a BIG business that has lot$$$ of dollars backing it.
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 26, 2019
http://joannenova...-family/

Renewables can be a big problem if they cause backup plants to become uneconomical and close.
greenonions1
4 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
When you say harming the environment do you mean like heating your home, lighting your streets and growing your food?
Yes - all of those activities are harming our environment. Obviously you are too stupid to realize what is happening in your world. https://www.getty...%20delta
https://www.thegu...pictures
etc. etc. etc. Now all energy sources have their environmental cost - and it seems to many of us - that the responsible path is looking for a way to keep our current quality of life - while minimizing the environmental damage. Renewables seem to me to be the best option - but as I have stipulated many times - I am comfortable with nukes - as long as we are willing to pay the extra cost - and make sure it is safe.
greenonions1
4 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2019
MR
Renewables can be a big problem...
Why don't you piss off - keep quoting from right wing bullshit propoganda sites. You talk about how you know so much more than every one else. But you can't even recognize bullshit propaganda. Example - from your site
No country on Earth with lots of renewables has cheap electricity
Not true. The U.S. has lots of renewables (approx 20%)- and very cheap electricity prices. Oklahoma has over 30% wind now - and some of the cheapest electricity in the world.
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 27, 2019
https://www.eia.g...id=38053

"he U.S. has lots of renewables (approx 20%)- and very cheap electricity prices."

Non-hydro renewables are only 10% in the US Onions. You chose a poor example Onions.

Prices are low despite renewables not because of renewables.
greenonions1
4 / 5 (4) Jan 27, 2019
Prices are low despite renewables not because of renewables
Prices are low - even with a relatively high penetration of renewables - so that puts the lie to your article. It is actually a more complex situation than you understand. In general - the higher a countries penetration of renewables - the more expensive the electricity. But that is because high penetration countries (such as Germany) were installing renewables decades ago - when they were very expensive. Thanks to the trail blazers - renewables are now the cheapest form of energy - so as we see countries installing more and more renewables - we will see the benefit of the newer - cheaper systems. I just don't get the need to show how stupid you are - by constantly quoting from ill informed - right wing - bullshit - propoganda bloggs. Facts are against this bullshit.
antialias_physorg
4.4 / 5 (7) Jan 27, 2019
Coal only survives in germany because it's subsidized (and has been so for the past 50 years). There's really no point in keeping it alive when the end is written on the wall in all day-glo caps. Better use that money for something else (e.g. retraining coal miners)
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 27, 2019
New renewables are cheaper right Onions? Try 85 cents/kwh

https://www.iceag...-policy/
greenonions1
4 / 5 (4) Jan 27, 2019
MR - why don't you read the whole fucking story - instead of just getting the propaganda from your right wing bullshit sites? https://commonwea...t-of-va/
So Virginia utilities have been ripping their customers off for years. The legislature orders them to pay back the money they have stolen - but gives them a loop hole - that they can keep the money - if they invest in renewables. So like all crony capitalist that you Conservatives have a love affair with - they concocted a scheme to keep their money.

And that is the fault of renewable energy?

the average levelized long-term price from wind power sales agreements has dropped to around 2 cents per kWh


https://www.nextb...our.html

https://renewecon...y-93695/
Da Schneib
3.7 / 5 (6) Jan 27, 2019
Looks like they voted for it.
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 28, 2019
" the average levelized long-term price from wind power sales agreements has dropped to around 2 cents per kWh "

Now an intelligent person would ask themselves why something that is worth at least 5 cents/kwh wholesale is selling for 2 cents/KWH. It is because some wind farms are paid by the government for each KWH that they sell? Sometimes in Texas wind power sells for a NEGATIVE cents/KWH because of the subsidies.
MR166
2 / 5 (4) Jan 28, 2019
Regardless of why, the rate payers in Va. are still paying 85c/KWH for this power. This is a prime example of Crony Capitalism created by green progressives.
Da Schneib
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 28, 2019
Meanwhile, on Earth: https://www.appal...irginia/

11 cents a kWh.

@MR lies again.
MR166
1 / 5 (3) Jan 28, 2019
Concentrate Da and stay with the thread. It is 85 cents/KWH for the wind power project not the entire rate base.
Da Schneib
4.2 / 5 (5) Jan 28, 2019
Like I said, @MR lied again.

Regardless of why, the rate payers in Va. are still paying 85c/KWH


Figures might not lie, but liars figure.

Da Schneib
4 / 5 (4) Jan 28, 2019
And the Germans still voted out coal.
MR166
1 / 5 (2) Jan 28, 2019
"And the Germans still voted out coal. "

Good for them. I just hope that they don't cry big tears when the Russians charge them double the going rate for natural gas when the whole system comes tumbling down.

Sometimes I wonder if China and Russia are behind this AGW hoax and a laughing as the West destroys its economies. Remember the watermelon theory......green on the outside and red on the inside.
Da Schneib
4 / 5 (4) Jan 28, 2019
Looks like they'll work it out with solar and wind. There will be much whining by the entrenched power structure of course.

Kinda like you whine all the time, @MR.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (2) Jan 28, 2019
MR
This is a prime example of Crony Capitalism created by green progressives
It's definitely an example of Crony Capitalism. Why do you need to blame 'green progressives.' The utility in VA has been robbing the ratepayers for many years. Fuck off - always needing to blame your boogy men for things. Do you know what special interest groups it was putting that loop hole in the bill - that allowed the utility to keep stolen money? As per Da Schneib actual data - rather than your right wing troll site bullshit - Virginians have pretty cheap electricity.
Renewables prices are falling - as predicted by smarter people than you - many years ago. We are moving to a new landscape - where there will actually be a market for energy. Thought you Conservatives like markets - until you don't - assholes - https://www.zmesc...r-power/
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (3) Jan 29, 2019
There will be much whining by the entrenched power structure of course.

The usual attempts at lobby influence - but nothing major so far.
Things is: with the simultaneous shutdown of our nuclear reactors the energy producers are already in a bit of a bind. The amount money they set aside for the decomissioning of these plants turns out to be...erm...somewhat inadequate (geeez...who coulda seen that one coming?) If enough money would have been set aside then nuclear would have been even less economical then it was all along.

So there's already a heap of taxpayer money going their way to make that happen. They can't really scream and shout about more money for the coal mines/coal powerplants right now without fear of some serious backlash.
MR166
not rated yet Jan 29, 2019
From Da:
https://www.appal...irginia/
11 cents/KWH

From You: "The utility in VA has been robbing the ratepayers for many years."

How can you call 11c/kwh a ripoff? Here in CT it's 20 cents and in NY it is even higher. Both are ultra liberal states. What a coincidence.

MR166
1 / 5 (1) Jan 29, 2019
Another "victory" for renewables:

https://www.foxne...the-bill

$1200/family/year more for electricity.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 29, 2019
How can you call 11c/kwh a ripoff?
Not me MR - Virginia's Republican Legislature -
Virginia legislature approved a law that required Dominion Energy and Appalachian Power Co. to return hundreds of millions of dollars to ratepayers
So as usual - you don't bother familiarizing yourself with the whole situation - just cut and past from right wing bullshit web sites. And oh look - right on cue you quote Fox news. And you highlight an example of a town in Texas that is making the rounds of the right wing bullshit machine - for the bad decisions of one Republican Mayor. If you knew what the fuck you were talking about - you would understand this (from your own article) -
Most Texas residents have the ability to choose their electricity provider in a competitive statewide market, leading to electricity prices that are among the lowest in the nation
In a state that gets nearly 20% of its power from wind and solar.

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