Space bases could preserve civilization in World War III: Elon Musk

March 12, 2018
Elon Musk says Mars could be a refuge in the event of a third world war on Earth

Bases on the moon and Mars could help preserve human civilization and hasten its regeneration on earth in the event of a third world war, billionaire entrepreneur Elon Musk, said on Sunday.

Musk, the founder of rocket and spacecraft company SpaceX, said the company's interplanetary ship could begin test flights as soon as next year.

There is "some probability" that there will be another Dark Ages, "particularly if there is a third ," Musk said at the SXSW conference.

"We want to make sure that there's enough of a seed of somewhere else to bring civilization back, and perhaps shorten the length of the Dark Ages," he said.

"I think a and a Mars base that could perhaps help regenerate life back here on earth would be really important."

Musk said he thinks that SpaceX's interplanetary ship will "be able to do short flights, short sort of up and down flights, probably sometime in the first half of next year."

SpaceX launched the world's most powerful rocket, the Falcon Heavy, last month, sending Musk's red Tesla Roadster car toward an orbit near Mars.

Explore further: SpaceX 'Starman' at wheel of sports car flying on new rocket

Related Stories

Five things to know about Elon Musk's space projects

February 6, 2018

SpaceX chief executive Elon Musk on Tuesday plans to send his own Tesla roadster into space aboard the world's most powerful rocket in operation, the Falcon Heavy—to the tune of David Bowie's "Space Oddity."

What's next for SpaceX?

February 7, 2018

In successfully sending the world's most powerful rocket into space, SpaceX founder Elon Musk has pulled off yet another spectacular gamble.

Recommended for you

Unconfirmed near-Earth objects

June 22, 2018

Near-Earth objects (NEOs) are small solar system bodies whose orbits sometimes bring them close to the Earth, potentially threatening a collision. NEOs are tracers of the composition, dynamics and environmental conditions ...

HESS J1943+213 is an extreme blazar, study finds

June 21, 2018

An international group of astronomers have carried out multi-wavelength observations of HESS J1943+213 and found evidence supporting the hypothesis that this gamma-ray source is an extreme blazar. The finding is reported ...

'Red nuggets' are galactic gold for astronomers

June 21, 2018

About a decade ago, astronomers discovered a population of small, but massive galaxies called "red nuggets." A new study using NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory indicates that black holes have squelched star formation in these ...

The Rosetta stone of active galactic nuclei deciphered

June 21, 2018

A galaxy with at least one active supermassive black hole – named OJ 287 – has caused many irritations and questions in the past. The emitted radiation of this object spans a wide range – from the radio up to the highest ...

84 comments

Adjust slider to filter visible comments by rank

Display comments: newest first

pensarfeo
1 / 5 (4) Mar 12, 2018
At a certain point this is just science fiction... not quite sure if it belongs in a serious scientific news site.
rgw
1.8 / 5 (5) Mar 12, 2018
At a certain point this is just science fiction... not quite sure if it belongs in a serious scientific news site.

I AGREE, the next things these pseudo science crackpots will be touting are Mars rovers, single atom tech and LASER weapons.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (2) Mar 12, 2018
Musk's idea isn't bad, but I think the flaw is in the timeline. The timeline to WWIII vs. the timeline to a self-sustaining extraterrestrial base.
I.e. :by the time we really have self-sustaining bases for a reasonable number of people that could preserve humanity - viz.a few hundreds to a few thousand people at least - we'll either have figured out how to prevent war or we've long since had one.
AlfvenArp
1 / 5 (5) Mar 12, 2018
This is coming from the man who develops the delivery systems for nuclear missiles which would be used in WWIII ... after his government contracted rockets help destroy mankind does he get to be one of the chosen few elitist to go to one of these Mars / Moon colonies?
ShotmanMaslo
5 / 5 (4) Mar 12, 2018
by the time we really have self-sustaining bases for a reasonable number of people that could preserve humanity - viz.a few hundreds to a few thousand people at least - we'll either have figured out how to prevent war or we've long since had one.


Eh, that is a nice theory but you dont know what for sure. I can easily imagine a self-sustaining base on Mars in a hundred years, and then a WWIII happening later. Such predictions are very hard, so better to be safe than sorry. Long term future of all life is at stake here.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 12, 2018
I AGREE, the next things these pseudo science crackpots will be touting are Mars rovers, single atom tech and LASER weapons
Old people. Gotta love em.

Speaking of sci fi, I read a book not too long ago, which I dont feel like chasing down, where an object hits the moon causing it to shatter and rain molten debris onto the earths surface.

Two groups survived. One lived in a large mining complex for 1200 years or so, the other in a nuclear sub community in the deepest part of the oceans that hadnt boiled away.

But of course in the real world, as soon as the potential for species-ending events became evident, prudent Leaders would have begun exploring options. And the most obvious would be underground on this planet.

The possibility that there are already large, totally independent, self-sustaining communities has existed ever since nuclear reactors were invented. People would have been digging down there for the last 60 years using nuclear explosives and tunnelers.
Zorcon
1 / 5 (2) Mar 12, 2018
At a certain point this is just science fiction... not quite sure if it belongs in a serious scientific news site.

I AGREE, the next things these pseudo science crackpots will be touting are Mars rovers, single atom tech and LASER weapons.


If Man were meant to fly he'd have been born with wings.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (3) Mar 12, 2018
"Musk's idea isn't bad, but I think the flaw is in the timeline."

Possibly, but there is no way to know that for certain today. Given that we are gambling with our very existence, the logical choice is to buy Musk's insurance and establish a presence on Mars, etc.

My wild guess is that we have already dodged WWIII. The most likely major combatants have too much to lose even in a conflict where the initiator ends up "victorious." The greater risk may be some hateful group like ISIS getting a hold of technology that they should never have and triggering some kind of calamity, possibly biological. For example, who knows what a small group of psychopaths may be able to come up with given access to off-the-shelf technology a 100 years from now. If the technological risks keep growing with time, then having a Plan B increasingly looks like a good idea too.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (1) Mar 12, 2018
Musk is making an arguably sound argument here, but I believe there are even better reasons for establishing a presence on Mars, etc. However, if self-destruction insurance is the idea that resonates the best with people, so be it. The important thing is to get out there!

Decade after decade after decade goes by and collectively we have no ambition to get past LEO. This has to change. Once it does, here is my prediction: Huge numbers of people around the world will wonder why we didn't do this sooner. Many will find it a surprising and enjoyable diversion in their lives. Some will experience pride in the accomplishments of the human race they never thought they would have. Writers will try to figure out how we could have overlooked this for so long or why we were otherwise occupied. Perhaps most importantly, a new generation of children will become far more interested in science and engineering than they otherwise would be, leading to big changes later on.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 12, 2018
who knows what a small group of psychopaths may be able to come up with given access to off-the-shelf technology
Psychopathy does not explain ISIS. Tribalism does.
Gigel
5 / 5 (1) Mar 13, 2018
"There is "some probability" that there will be another Dark Ages"

There is some certainty there. Civilizations have come and gone one after another. The reason is an almost biological one: civilizations are like organisms, they grow, attain a maximum then they decline, become old and tired and then they die. It is in the nature of civilization. You know death approaches when civilization is no longer able to cope with its challenges. When it has become tired and unable to act or even a harm to itself - think about the welfare states of Europe today. This is not some probability, it is an almost sure thing with civilizations.
PeterPassword
1 / 5 (3) Mar 13, 2018
Musk is, like so many tech people, utterly ignorant on ecology. All he can imagine is a world war, when the real and present threat to our continued existance is climate change which is making the growing of food increasingly problematic and will one day lead to mass famine and the effects of that on society. Still obsessed with the fantasy of space travel, he posits bases on Mars without once dealing with the major difficulty of space travel for these vulnerable skin-encapsulated egos, cosmic radiation.
This is why nothing has happened since the moon landings of the sixties other than orbiting satellites and drones. There is currently no know method for protecting human bodies travelling in space, suggesting that the dream so many shelter in is not going to happen.
On top of the radiation problem, there is the water needs of the travellers; a massive amount of water would be needed to sustain them for years of travel
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (1) Mar 13, 2018
Musk is making an arguably sound argument here, but I believe there are even better reasons for establishing a presence on Mars, etc. However, if self-destruction insurance is the idea that resonates the best with people, so be it. The important thing is to get out there!

To put it bluntly: Fear of death is a more powerful motivator than curiosity (arguably this is a sound approach..."curiosity killed the cat" and all that)...So I get why he is using this line of argument as opposed to positive motivation about a grand future (e.g. "let's spread out in to the universe").

If you look back then the race into orbit - and later to the moon - was nothing but fear of the US/Russians respectively. It had very little to do with positive curiosity..
Gigel
not rated yet Mar 13, 2018
Musk is, like so many tech people, utterly ignorant on ecology. All he can imagine is a world war, when the real and present threat to our continued existance is climate change


A world war is far more dangerous than climate change. For one thing, humans are causing climate change in both ways; they are just increasing the global temperature more than they are lowering it. But with a war, climate may become free from human influence. That means that the first thing is that temps are going to increase abruptly. Estimates say there would be a 1.2 deg. Celsius increase if global shipping stops; that is because ships increase the cloud cover over oceans. That would be far worse than the current warming.

Plus, in time we may learn to reduce the warming we caused. But that requires R&D which would be halted by a war. We are actually a chance for the climate to return to normal. Humans are learning new ways all the time.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (1) Mar 13, 2018
AAP, I agree fear of death probably trumps just about everything, so we both see the logic in Musk emphasizing this.

If someone is against space exploration/colonization, reminding them we can mitigate the risk of extinction may help persuade them. If someone only cares about money, consider the essentially unlimited energy, materials and possibly valuable real estate available to anchor whole new lucrative economies. If it is scientific curiosity you have, experience suggests there is something to learn at every turn. If global unity is favored to reduce the risk of conflict, doing this together is one of the very few things to help. If you long to be part of truly advanced society, this is the way forward.

There is something for nearly everyone. Me personally? I want it all!
antialias_physorg
not rated yet Mar 13, 2018
that is because ships increase the cloud cover over oceans. That would be far worse than the current warming.

Erm...did you just try to make a case for continued pollution?

A world war is far more dangerous than climate change.

With a world war we can at least decide not to have one. We cannot (currently) decide not to have climate change because it's already happening. I would advocate working on the thing that we know is causing trouble instead of fearing the effects of something which might (hopefully) never happen.

If someone only cares about money, consider the essentially unlimited energy, materials and possibly valuable real estate available to anchor whole new lucrative economies.
That's so far into the future that no investor will see a ROI on this that would not be easily bested by some investment on Earth right now. Economics is very short sighted that way.

Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 13, 2018
Economics is very short sighted that way.


AAP, I agree. There are couple companies looking into exploiting materials in NEOs, but no profit just yet.

Part of the problem is the urgency to make money now can make it very difficult to act in one's own long term best interest. For all practical purposes, Mars is the only terraformable planet within at least 4.25 light years. A terraformed Mars could have incredible value, as does the naturally terraformed Earth. So Mars in particular has some value that is not being captured.

To encourage longer-term thinking, perhaps anyone stepping on to celestial body should be allowed to make a significant claim for themselves and their country. If most people want to believe Mars is completely worthless, they shouldn't mind at all as it is carved up. Musk himself could claim Valles Marineris or maybe a thousand square km of land containing a newly discovered glacial deposit of water ice just below the surface.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Mar 13, 2018
For all practical purposes, Mars is the only terraformable planet within at least 4.25 light years
Practical? Terraforming takes centuries. The surface will need to be bombarded with asteroids.

In the meantime we will have created vast underground cities with stadiums, farmland, parks, malls, and huge air and water reservoirs.

Martians will revisit the idea of terraforming and say 'why bother?'
Gigel
5 / 5 (1) Mar 13, 2018
Erm...did you just try to make a case for continued pollution?

The point is we are already humanforming our planet which is a very complex system, so we may keep doing it, but be smart about it. Actually any species is speciesforming its environment. Nothing new there. But we can use our minds while doing it.

Increasing cloud cover by throwing particles above oceans is actually a very cheap way of countering global warming and keeping it under control until we find a way to absorb the surplus CO2. The initial idea was to throw salt particles in the air - much better than smoke. But whatever we do to mitigate global warming, we'll need peace. War has a way that is incompatible with anything else except war. So we'd better avoid war for our sake and the environment's safety.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 13, 2018
The surface will need to be bombarded with asteroids.


I prefer the polar regions be hit with comets myself. Using comets, I think we can do a surprising amount of terraforming in a relatively short period of time, say 100 years. Imagine if enough of an atmosphere can be established so people on Mars can walk around on the surface in coats with relatively simple equipment for breathing, but no spacesuits. Temperatures are warmer and radiation is reduced. Perhaps engineered plants could tolerate the outdoors for food production, or at least dome design would be simplified. If this happened, I think the population of Mars would begin to explode and folks would be looking at Mars from a whole different perspective.

I suggest looking to the outer solar system for impactor candidates. Yet another in the long list of reasons why we need to get out there. We can sit around and debate what-if scenarios forever, but we won't really know until we boldly go ourselves.
TrollBane
5 / 5 (1) Mar 13, 2018
MT, a thicker atmosphere will also guard against micrometeoroids, make aerobraking easier, but will also make dust storms more severe, at least for a while, due to the greater ability of the thicker atmosphere to raise dust from the surface and keep it airborne.
TrollBane
not rated yet Mar 13, 2018
Hmm... Big space station, Rangers... Somebody has seen an episode of Babylon 5...
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 13, 2018
Trollbane, makes sense to me. Kim Stanley Robinson laid out a good bit of this in his Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars trilogy over 20 years ago. I swear I had the comet hitting the poles idea independently, but it would not surprise me if somebody beat me to it, maybe by decades. Using comets this way on Mars was featured on one of the last episodes of Star Trek: Enterprise in 2005 ("Terra Prime", Season 4, Episode 21). BTW, I really love the Sagan Memorial in that episode. It was designed by his son, Nick Sagan, and my gut tells me something like that will be placed on Mars someday if for no other reason than to respect Nick's careful thoughts on this. Perhaps another self-fulfilling prophecy from Star Trek.

https://www.youtu...AbcNnLfk
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Mar 14, 2018
Imagine if enough of an atmosphere can be established so people on Mars can walk around on the surface in coats
Imagine walking around during all the hurricane-force winds, earthquakes, torrential rains, and floods associated with a million megaton impact at the pole.

People would need to be living underground to survive all that chaos. And by the time an impact would be technologically feasible, millions would already be living underground in comfort and security with unlimited new space created by mining operations.

Imagine trying to sell an impact to Martians that could potentially seismically destroy their malls and game preserves, and interrupt access to space for a century or 2.

KSR also described billions living underground throughout the system in asteroids and moons. People would prefer it like they already prefer spending most of their time indoors in cities.

And you could make a central park-sized void and bigger, under Martian regolith.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
No hurricanes, no floods, no blizzards, no tsunamis, no mosquitos, etc while living underground.

We move 100s of cubic miles of material during mining and tunneling operations here on earth every year. Imagine how much more we could make with full automation.

Building external structures takes lots of time here, using mined, refined, and fabricated material. Tunnels and voids require minimal improvement in comparison. People could live in open, tentlike habitations in landscaped voids, serviced by drones, a standard lifestyle everywhere else in the solar system.

Terraforming - what's the point?
434a
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
What are the reason for countries participating in WW3?
An all out nuclear war is not winnable by any conventional meaning of the term.
There is even the acronym, M.A.D, to describe the intended, nay, desired outcome.
So, it's not really about winning for yourself is it. It's about making absolutely certain that the other guy loses.
And if the desired outcome of the equation is M.A.D why are Mr Musk's colonies off limits? Who gave him a get out of jail free card?

It's not exactly like the people planning the destruction of the human race are going to be given over to altruism. "Right, we've got enough nuclear, biological and chemical weapons to kill all life on Earth 23 times over, but let's not destroy Mr Musk's Mars' colony because I was planning on retiring there next week"

If you are the psychopath in charge of planning the end of the human race for your country of choice, making the destruction of space colonies might be right up there on your list of priorities.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
What are the reason for countries participating in WW3?
The selfish religionist compulsion to outgrow and overwhelm the competition. Overpopulation is always the cause of conflict and all current religions have survived by using it as a weapon.

'Warfare of the cradle' as teddy roosevelt so aptly described it.
An all out nuclear war is not winnable by any conventional meaning of the term
Religionists live for the chance to die for their faith. The afterlife is much more important than this one.

The messiah is going to destroy this world when he returns anyway so why not do it for him?
https://youtu.be/7jETVUulGwc

"Religion must die for mankind to live." Maher
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
psychopath in charge of planning the end of the human race for your country of choice
Tribalists think this way, not psychopaths. Psychopaths are incapable of considering anyone's interests besides their own.

Religion is a refined and weaponized form of tribalism. It was concocted to spread the tribal identity over large regions, and among disparate groups and former enemies.

By the time the barbarians invaded xian Rome, they themselves were xian. They spared all those who sought refuge in the churches, much like islamists today will separate out the Muslims when slaughtering busloads full of people.

In contrast the Catholic Hutu drove the protestant Tutsi into their churches and burned them... with the encouragement of Catholic priests and nuns, whom the church now harbors and protects from prosecution.

THIS mindset will be the reason for another global war.

"Gott mit Uns"
http://humanistbl...html?m=1
antialias_physorg
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
Mars is the only terraformable planet within at least 4.25 light years

I'm not sure what you mean by terraformable. The gravity isn't changeable. The atmospheric density? I don't know where all the mass should come from to make this happen. (Note that a 20/70 oxygen/nitrogen mix isn't breathable if the pressure isn't right).
The atmospheric composition? Even if all that mass could be got from somewhere: 70% nitrogen is not something you just wave your hands around and make appear. The O2 you could get from the poles - but I see no source of nitrogen readily available.

Also: The poles are too precious as a source of (probably scarce) water to just dump into the atmosphere - which Mars has a very hard time to hang on to.

So even IF we find a miracle source of nitrogen and IF we gassify all the poles and IF that is enough to get the atmosphere to some breathable level we would be creating a system that would break down in short order as the atmosphere is lost again.
antialias_physorg
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
What are the reason for countries participating in WW3?

A country (e.g. Russia) might consider itself so far behind the curve in terms of wealth and so in danger of an internal uprising that it might look advantageous to 'win' a nuclear exchange and then take over all that is left instead of suffering assured defeat at the hands of economics and internal turmoil.

Then again: Wars aren't usually started for particularly sane reasons. Pride, ego, hubris, greed, or plain old stupid belief in "we can't lose" of individuals at the helm may all suffice. With Putin, Xi and Trump at the controls you have some with blind ambition to put himself in the history books (no matter if it'd read "started greatest war in history"...for some 'greatest' is enough), ruthless economics and enough stupidity, respectively, to get the ball rolling.
Gigel
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
Mars is the only terraformable planet within at least 4.25 light years

I'm not sure what you mean by terraformable. The gravity isn't changeable. The atmospheric density? I don't know where all the mass should come from to make this happen. (Note that a 20/70 oxygen/nitrogen mix isn't breathable if the pressure isn't right).

You don't really need nitrogen to breathe. A 100% oxygen atmosphere with 20% normal pressure would do. Also put some CO2 for plants to live. Maybe on Mars you'd put much more CO2 to make the place warmer. The Sun there is quite dim.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
So even IF we find a miracle source of nitrogen and IF we gassify all the poles and IF that is enough to get the atmosphere to some breathable level we would be creating a system that would break down in short order as the atmosphere is lost again.


AAP, you are making pretty good points here, but how long is your "short order"? I have read that if we overcome all your IF statements and establish a more-or-less breathable atmosphere on Mars it will only last for a few million years or so. This is very short on the geological timescale, but essentially forever on the human timescale. Don't forget, we can top up any atmospheric losses to keep conditions steady.

So where are all these materials going to come from? The answer is very simple. The answer is some combination of 1. using the in situ materials existing on Mars; 2. adapting to conditions on Mars; and 3. bringing necessary materials to Mars. If 1 and 2 are insufficient, then we fall back to 3.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
AAP, from my perspective, all you are really saying is there are huge challenges to terraforming Mars and we cannot at this point guarantee the desired outcome. That is my conclusion as well. Now please present your risk analysis for concluding that the situation on Mars is just too challenging, so we should give up on Mars.

Look, let me make this easy for you. If your chances for success are slim and none, choose slim, every time. I may be able to see a little further down the path of space exploration than most, but I assure you I cannot see the entire path in perfect clarity, nobody can. I cannot give you all the answers. However, I am smart enough to know that if we don't keep going down the path, we will never find out. I asserted that Mars is our best shot for terraforming. Almost everyone would agree, including Elon Musk and the late Stephen Hawking, so now what do we do about it? Again, the answer is simple, we "boldly go where no one has gone before."
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
Imagine walking around during all the hurricane-force winds, earthquakes, torrential rains, and floods associated with a million megaton impact at the pole.


Otto, I am sure you can appreciate that sometimes the weather is bad and it is better to stay indoors for a while if you can. That does not mean we are destined to live only underground. Why not take terraforming on Mars as far as it can go and live underground only to the extent necessary?

Most people do not want to live underground. Look at the most expensive real estate on Earth and see how people want to live if money is essentially no object, then use that for a reference point. People want expansive, lavish homes, with great views and access to nearby attractions such as mountains, lakes, rivers, the ocean and sometimes cities. Those homes should be beautiful with fine art and many high-tech features reflecting the interests of their owners. They make a statement. People only live in caves if they have to.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
You don't really need nitrogen to breathe. A 100% oxygen atmosphere with 20% normal pressure would do
You need N2 to terraform. Research before posting.
Most people do not want to live underground
What is the difference between living 'underground' and living in buildings? Whats the difference between central park and a landscaped void of the same size? Answer - climate control.

Why your negative implications? They're not really related to the reality of contemporary life here on earth.

If the inner system is populated and more people are eventually living off earth than on earth, then they will essentially be living 'underground' whether in orbiting bottles or underground on planets, moons, and asteroids.

Picture your favorite mall. Then ask yourself how it would be different under the surface of mars. Would you miss that long trek across the wet, icy parking lot?
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
People want expansive, lavish homes, with great views and access to nearby attractions such as mountains, lakes, rivers, the ocean
No they don't. The vast majority of people on this planet don't have them and don't miss them. You want nice views? In the near future VR will be indistinguishable from real life.

Underground houses can be every bit as expansive, with as much open exterior space, as your typical suburban split level. More so than the apartment or flat most people are quite comfortable with.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
Try to use your imagination. Here is the cavity created by a small yield nuke during the project gnome tests back in the 60s
https://www.flick...97437498

- Imagine this void or a bigger one lined with condos, facing a nice landscaped interior courtyard
ShotmanMaslo
5 / 5 (1) Mar 14, 2018
Still obsessed with the fantasy of space travel, he posits bases on Mars without once dealing with the major difficulty of space travel for these vulnerable skin-encapsulated egos, cosmic radiation.


Wrong, radiation exposure in interstellar space is roughly double that of ISS. Less than a year long flights are entirely possible. Once on Mars there is abundant radiation shielding available. Radiation is only a showstopper for very long flights such as to outer solar system, but not in inner solar system. Water is not an issue either.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
This is a void created by a small yield nuke during operation plowshare in the 60s
https://www.flick...97437498

Now imagine it lined with condos facing a nicely landscaped, well-lit, interior communal space with a ceiling indistinguishable from the sky.

Imagine one 10x the size with streets, a lake, wild animals, wind, rain on schedule, etc.

You have no idea what people in future gens are going to prefer. I am assuming that Martians would rather avoid the mud torrents, tornados, earthquakes, and communications blackouts associated with a major impact and the ejection of a few thousand cubic miles of gunk into their atmosphere,

Chances are the first settlements will be where all the water is, at the pole. Ice caves can be huge and quite hospitable
https://www.deepb...and.html

-and resettling a million inhabitants in order to destroy their century-old cities might be problematic.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
Otto, well the good news from your perspective is the initial dwellings may be partially or completely underground. Dwellings on Mars may continue that way for a long time too. However, your accepting attitude towards living underground is not going to be shared by all.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
Mark: "People want expansive, lavish homes, with great views and access to nearby attractions such as mountains, lakes, rivers, the ocean . . . "

Otto: "No they don't. The vast majority of people on this planet don't have them and don't miss them."

Otto, perhaps you want to rephrase/rethink your response. People will sacrifice for the future, but given the chance, people will acquire nice homes. Our entire global economy proves that.

Otto, I can only imagine you as a real estate agent. A young couple drops by and relates they have a growing family and want a house in the suburbs with a yard for the kids to play in and good schools. Then you say, let me show you this underground bunker I have for sale. It is only slightly radioactive because it was hollowed out by a nuclear weapon. LMFAO!

Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
"You need N2 to terraform."

Good point. I think Otto is probably right about this and others have noticed this problem for a long time. If nitrogen becomes a real showstopper, the outer solar system is loaded with frozen nitrogen, perhaps we can give it a little nudge.

Yet again, this requires that we get out there to figure out what the solar system's inventory of movable volatiles really is and what it would actually take to move it around. Chemical propulsion is clearly insufficient for a project of this vast scale. Perhaps if the good folks at MIT can get their SPARC fusion reactor running, then a better propulsion option will present itself. "Scotty, we need more power!" My biggest concerns are finding the right objects (size and composition), being able to reliably move them, and minimizing the damage to Mars.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
the initial dwellings may be partially or completely underground
No, initial dwellings will be on the surface. Watch musks vid.
A young couple drops by and relates they have a growing family and want a house in the suburbs with a yard for the kids to play in and good schools
Suburbs on mars??
Then you say, let me show you this underground bunker I have for sale
Try that tack with 3rd gen martians. What do you think theyll prefer - cramped surface dwellings or nice new subsurface tunnels with real parks?
It is only slightly radioactive because it was hollowed out by a nuclear weapon. LMFAO!
What makes you think theyll be radioactive? What makes you think they wont be MUCH better than a granite fireplace or a basement full of radon?

Or just a typical brownstone across from central park?

MOST city people never leave the city. They spend most ALL of their time indoors because they prefer it. Your head is full of Futurama visions from the 60s.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Mar 14, 2018
And WTF does terraforming have to do with good schools???
I think Otto is probably right about this
Im not 'probably right'. Plants need N2 duh.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 14, 2018
I'm assuming you're not going to look into project gnome so let me say that one their discoveries was that these shots produced lots of easily mined and recovered radioisotopes. A totally independent colony will need these for all the same reasons we need them.

And what makes you think that whatever irradiated materials that are left couldn't be encapsulated with some wire mesh and a few inches of spray polymer or even gunnite? We can already waterproof tunnels for 50+ years.

It would be easier than isolating natural emitters like water, granite, and radon here on earth.
ShotmanMaslo
5 / 5 (1) Mar 15, 2018
No, initial dwellings will be on the surface. Watch musks vid.


Which vid? The one that shows a mere artist rendering of a Mars colony that could anyway be interpreted as surface parts of an underground colony? Musk has stated that Mars colony will be underground.

You only need to be several meters deep to reduce cosmic rays exposure significantly. 10 tons per square meter and you reduce it to Earthlike level.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 15, 2018
MOST city people never leave the city. They spend most ALL of their time indoors because they prefer it. Your head is full of Futurama visions from the 60s.


Otto, I think your incredible cluelessness is feeding into your intellectual inferiority complex. I strongly suggest you get out of your mother's basement or whatever underground hole you dwell in and get out for some fresh air and sunshine.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 15, 2018
Otto, there are these things called national parks. I strongly suggest you visit a few of them because it would do you a world of good. While you are there, carefully observe how normal people (that is not you) react to being in national parks. Based on your comments, you will find it very surprising and enlightening. I know you don't believe me, but I swear some people actually enjoy being outside in beautiful locations. They go out of their way and spend good money to be there. What's more, this is considered normal, not aberrant behavior.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 15, 2018
Otto, New York City is a big expensive city. Here are some places there available for purchase right now for $50M and up. $50M is a lot of money. You can look all this up if you don't believe me.

https://www.zillo...t/11_zm/

Here are some places around the U.S. for $25M and up. $25M is still a lot of money.

https://www.zillo...ct/3_zm/

The people buying these places can have pretty much whatever they want and I don't see a single cave hollowed out by a nuclear weapon, do you? You don't like it, and you can argue it is wasteful, but this is what people want. If given the choice, people would prefer a fully terraformed Mars, not cave dwellings. Elon Musk is right (again) and you, Otto, are wrong, wrong, wrong.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
Which vid? The one that shows a mere artist rendering of a Mars colony that could anyway be interpreted as surface parts of an underground colony?
What, you haven't seen this yet?
https://youtu.be/E4FY894HyF8

It might be just pretty pics but it indicates intent with the tech currently available.
Musk has stated that Mars colony will be underground.

You only need to be several meters deep to reduce cosmic rays exposure significantly. 10 tons per square meter and you reduce it to Earthlike level
Covering surface structures with dirt does not make them underground structures. Getting tunnelers to the surface probably won't happen until surface colonies are established because the tech hasnt been (officially) developed yet.

Even if we find caves and natural tunnels and voids it will be a huge effort to get them sealed and habitable.

It will also take awhile to get the public used to the idea of transporting large nuclear reactors and explosives off-planet.
antialias_physorg
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
AAP, from my perspective, all you are really saying is there are huge challenges to terraforming

I'm saying that even if we wanted to terraform Mars it would be a cold place no one would go out into anyways. There's really no point in terraforming I can see. It'd be much easier to start genetically engineering human stock to survive under the conditions of Mars than change Mars to accommodate humans that are genetically adapted to life on Earth.

I'm not sure you appreciate how big a planet is when talking about something like terraforming.
For comparison: We've "terraformed" the Earth's atmosphere to heat up by 1.5 degrees...By billions(!) of people collectively burning fossil fuels for 170 years (and we haven't even changed the density of the atmosphere by any appreciable amount by this added mass).

And you think we can do a lot more by sending a couple of satellites with mirrors to Mars?
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
Otto, New York City is a big expensive city. Here are some places there available for purchase right now for $50M and up. $50M is a lot of money. You can look all this up if you don't believe me
Are you for real? You think the majority of people who live in cities are rich???

MOST city dwellers are average to poor, and they are quite happy spending most all their time indoors and in parks.

How many people in Harlem do you think like to vacation in the Adirondacks?

Surface work and recreation on moons and planets will still be a large part of life there for gens. It will just be in suitable garments, like trips to ski resorts.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
Mark thinks Martians who have been happily living in underground cities for 100s of years will suddenly want Elysium.
https://youtu.be/EJ-bYOyQ46Y

-and will be willing to endure another century of disruption and relocation, to get it... knowing that once they do they will then have to endure all the typical problems earth-dwellers face like blizzards and floods and heatwaves and hurricanes and tornados.

And they will also have to develop whole industries dedicated to surface construction that they didn't need for underground living.

Elsewhere in the system, underground living will have been the norm for centuries. MOST people will have adapted to it and will be uncomfortable with anything else.

And no, there is no environment you can create on an Elysium ring that you cannot create in an underground habitat with much less effort to create and maintain.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
Otto, there are these things called national parks. I strongly suggest you visit a few of them because it would do you a world of good. While you are there, carefully observe how normal people (that is not you) react to being in national parks
I think the normal people in Compton would resent very much you considering them abnormal because they would rather not spend their time in tents amidst the mosquitos and mud in Yosemite.

Martians will regularly vacation in valles marineris in skinsuits and fashionable outerwear... or they will choose to spend their free time freeflying in one of the many mile-high air reservoirs created far beneath the regolith.
https://en.wikipe...om_Earth

-Created I must point out, with far less effort than it would take to terraform the entire freaking planet.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
Oh and hey - if Martians want to bask in the sun in a beach resort on the black sea, they're certainly welcome to come here. I bet by the time your little terraforming operation was complete, medicine and augmentation tech will have advanced sufficiently to where the preparations for earths gravity and atmosphere would be effortless and speedy.
ShotmanMaslo
1 / 5 (1) Mar 16, 2018
Covering surface structures with dirt does not make them underground structures.


Of course it does. Again, it only takes 10 tons per square meter to fully protect against cosmic rays, and there are studies of humans living in naturally radioactive places on Earth which imply even partial protection may be enough. Any space colony will have to be located mostly underground, but not necessarily very deep. And short stays on the surface will be possible, too.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
Are you for real? You think the majority of people who live in cities are rich???


LMFAO! You must enjoy arguing too much to actually read before responding. My point is very, very simple here, so try to follow along: "All things being equal, and given the choice, people will choose to live in surface dwellings, not underground dwellings." I used extremely expensive housing as an example because if you have +$25M to spend, your options are definitely NOT being limited by a lack of funds. You can live anywhere you want, in any fashion you want. You cannot argue these people would prefer to live underground, but can't afford it. If people buying these pricey surface residences wanted beautiful residences underground instead, they would buy them or have them build to their architect's specifications. But NOBODY is doing this. People want to live in surface dwellings on this planet, so it stands to reason they would want the same thing if they could get it on Mars.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
I'm saying that even if we wanted to terraform Mars it would be a cold place no one would go out into anyways. There's really no point in terraforming I can see. It'd be much easier to start genetically engineering human stock to survive under the conditions of Mars than change Mars to accommodate humans that are genetically adapted to life on Earth.


You really need to do some research and try to argue the opposite side here too. To start, just how likely it is that we could warm and pressurize Mars up enough for liquid water to exist in the equatorial regions? Looking way beyond that, you are not fully considering the benefits of a self-sustaining biosphere. You are also not considering the practical and moral consequences of creating humans that cannot survive on Earth and vice versa.

After Mars is fully terraformed, we may look to the billions of terraformable planets in the galaxy. Developing terraforming technology will pay off in ways we cannot even imagine.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
"I'm not sure you appreciate how big a planet is when talking about something like terraforming."

Maybe not, but once again, if the odds are slim and none, choose slim. I have read a number of books and articles about terraforming and I think there is a good chance we can get a fair amount of warming relatively easy due to positive feedback. Instead blasting the poles with relatively weak nuclear weapons, I say let's hit them much harder with cometary impacts. However, this might be tricky because we don't want to hit them so hard that the atmosphere is full of dust for a millennium or it actually negatively affects the rotation or orbit of Mars.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
Hey there insulting buttcrack
People want to live in surface dwellings on this planet, so it stands to reason they would want the same thing if they could get it on Mars
What did settlers live in when they got to the new world? Palaces?

You demean most of the city dwellers on this planet. And then you have the nerve to demean me.
You are also not considering the practical and moral consequences of creating humans that cannot survive on Earth and vice versa
What does this even mean?? Why would martians care whether they could survive on earth or not?
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
Of course it does
Of course it does not. Surface structures that musk and others are proposing are going to be brought prepackaged from off-planet, possibly designed to be covered with regolith, many decades before they will begin to be fabricated with local materials.

Conversely underground habitats will be fashioned in tunnels and voids. These can be pressurized and lined to contain air, water, fuel, and processed materials.

They are created in totally different ways arent they? One, you build the structure and cover it. The other, you create a void and build within it. They require totally different construction methods and materials.

Or are you saying the brooklyn bridge is the same as the holland tunnel?
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
I wonder, if we had been ready, what it would have taken to divert the Comet Siding Spring into Mars in October 2014. It was discovered in January 2013 and nearly hit Mars without our help, passing by at a distance of only 139,300 km (86,500 mi). Comet Siding Spring may or may not have been an ideal impactor, but its 400 meter to 700 meter diameter suggests its impact into a Martian polar cap would have made good test to see what it would take to thicken the Martian atmosphere.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
What did settlers live in when they got to the new world? Palaces?


Otto, just relax. You think you are disagreeing with me and proving me wrong when in reality you are just not understanding what I am saying. Here is what I am saying:

1. History shows people prefer surface dwellings, nice ones if they can get them.
2. Even if people live underground for a while on Mars, it is by necessity, not by choice.
3. Given a choice, people would prefer a terraformed Mars so they can live on the surface in an Earth-like environment, i.e., the very definition of "terraforming."

You demean most of the city dwellers on this planet.


Wrong, I am saying we create new cities on Mars similar to, but maybe even better than, those on Earth. Those cites will probably have an above ground component and a below ground component, similar to here on Earth.

Hey there insulting buttcrack


If you are insulted, try reading before going off half-cocked.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
But NOBODY is doing this
Humans have been transitioning to living in interior space throughout their existence. Thats how they choose to live here
https://www.visit...m/en-us/

-where most all the rich people live INSIDE.

Whats your def of 'surface dwelling' anyway? You want to be able to walk into your backyard and smell the roses? What makes you think martians wont be living in voids large enough to do this?

I think we are getting a glimpse of marks very own personal claustrophobia.

Put your skinsuit on mark and go take a walk outside in the red dust.
https://www.youtu...cKrl1o90

-Youll feel better.

Im even betting that environmentalists of the 23rd century will resist all attempts to gentrify their beautiful pristine natural martian landscape. What a corrupt earther notion!
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
Comet Siding Spring may or may not have been an ideal impactor, but its 400 meter to 700 meter diameter suggests its impact into a Martian polar cap would have made good test to see what it would take to thicken the Martian atmosphere
Imagine being a 5th gen martian living under-ice and being faced with that prospect. Imagine a martian of that era being faced with the prospect of his valles marinaris city being flooded.

You have NO IDEA what martians will want.
If you are insulted, try reading before going off half-cocked
Im the one informing you of the realities of terraforming. Youre the one getting all emotional about living on a terran mars.
History shows people prefer surface dwellings, nice ones if they can get them
What other choice have they had? Its always been easier to live on the surface. It will be just the opposite on mars.

And people have always preferred living inside than outside yes?
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
I think the normal people in Compton would resent very much you considering them abnormal because they would rather not spend their time in tents amidst the mosquitos and mud in Yosemite.


I personally think Yosemite National Park is one of the most beautiful places on Earth. Top 10 for sure, maybe even number 1. I don't remember much of your mosquitoes and mud, but maybe it depends on the time of year you visit. If it is the mosquitoes and mud you fear, I suggest you forget camping and stay at the Ahwahnee Hotel in Yosemite Valley. It is one of the finest places in one of the finest settings on this planet, IMHO. Presidents, royalty, the rich and famous have all stayed there. It is a marvel.

https://en.wikipe...ee_Hotel

Look, I realize you might not like camping (I do), but if you stay at the Ahwahnee and still can't find a way to enjoy yourself in Yosemite National Park for a few days, then perhaps you are abnormal. Agoraphobia?
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
Imagine being a 5th gen martian living under-ice and being faced with that prospect.


Imagine a 10th gen Martian walking outside and breathing the air without equipment.

Imagine a martian of that era being faced with the prospect of his valles marinaris city being flooded.


If you build in Valles Marinaris you had better find some high ground because we already know it is going to be flooded.

You have NO IDEA what martians will want.


But you think you do? Anyway, you are wrong. I have a pretty good idea what Martians will want because I have been living with their ancestors all my life.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
Hint to future Mars colonists: Think twice before building in the blue areas of this elevation map of Mars, otherwise your work may be under water some day. Be careful in the green areas too.

https://pubs.usgs..._sh1.pdf

Now that you have your fair warning, be careful, and feel free to ask Elon Musk (not me) where he thinks Martian sea level is going to be some day.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
Look, I realize you might not like camping (I do), but if you stay at the Ahwahnee and still can't find a way to enjoy yourself in Yosemite National Park for a few days, then perhaps you are abnormal. Agoraphobia?
We're not talking about me. Im not a martian and neither are you. We've never lived in compton or dubai. YOURE love of yosemite has no bearing whatsoever on what comptonites or dubians or martians do or do not like.
Hint to future Mars colonists: Think twice before building in the blue areas of this elevation map of Mars, otherwise your work may be under water some day. Be careful in the green areas too
-because mark thomas, earther from the 21st century, wants to tell you how to live your life.

Hes been trying to do this with comptonians and dubians as well.

They dont give a shit what he wants either.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
If you build in Valles Marinaris you had better find some high ground because we already know it is going to be flooded
Imperial earther bastards and carpetbaggers have been trying to tell us what to do for centuries. We had no choice but to drop a nice big rock into their atlantic cesspool.

Now THAT was a hurricane ahahaaahaaaa lots of new breeding ground for your mosquitos now eh?
Imagine a 10th gen Martian walking outside and breathing the air without equipment
Imagine him not wanting to, being totally comfortable visiting his local 3 sq mi park in bubble #27.

You cant can you?

How many dubians crave a trip to yosemite? You know how crowded it gets in summer???
I personally think Yosemite National Park is one of the most beautiful places on Earth
WE think valles marineris is more beautiful the way it is. Dont try to convince us otherwise.

We have LOTS of rocks out here.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
BTW otto grew up in the mountains. Earther.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
"Earther"

See, if we engineer people as opposed to environments, we increase the chances that divisions like this will arise. We have to start getting smarter to these second order effects. That alone should be enough to inform us to avoid this if possible.

"We're not talking about me."

We kinda are. Go stay at the Ahwahnee in Yosemite and have a great time. Make certain you have dinner there in the great hall too. Take people who enjoy this kind of thing. Read or watch something about how that area so affected John Muir and try to understand why. Get into the back country too. Then come back to this website and thank me for sending you to one of the most beautiful places on Earth.

"because mark thomas, earther from the 21st century, wants to tell you how to live your life."

LOL! Telling people to be wary because low parts of Mars are likely to flooded is not telling people how to live their lives. Give me a break. :-)
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
Go stay at the Ahwahnee in Yosemite and have a great time. Make certain you have dinner there in the great hall too. Take people who enjoy this kind of thing. Read or watch something about how that area so affected John Muir and try to understand why
-And I'll ask the next floridian why he could care less about visiting your wonderful tourist traps.

BTW earther you may want to think twice about hitting our pole with a comet and releasing all the hydrocarbons buried there. You'll turn mars into another beijing.

Yes of course they're as common here as they are everywhere else in the system.

The clathrate emissions alone will turn us into another Venus. And earth into another red army.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 16, 2018
See, if we engineer people as opposed to environments, we increase the chances that divisions like this will arise
Divisions arise when one group thinks they have the right to tell another group how to live. Youre a prime example of that sort of ignorance.
Telling people to be wary because low parts of Mars are likely to flooded is not telling people how to live their lives
You're not going to flood our valleys. And if you try we will inundate your coastlines. Perhaps we'll hit toba, yellowstone, long valley, and the canary islands first. And of course yosemite.

More bang for the buck.

And then you'll be the ones living underground.

Earther.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 17, 2018
You're not going to flood our valleys. And if you try we will inundate your coastlines. Perhaps we'll hit toba, yellowstone, long valley, and the canary islands first. And of course yosemite.


Dude, you definitely need to get out more.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 17, 2018
Perhaps we will dump a rock on YOUR pole and hasten the inevitable. Would you appreciate that carpetbagger?

Ah the fjords of yosemite - whatta sight. Except that because of all the dust, smoke, haze, rain, and debris, you wouldn't be able to see them for centuries just like on a terraformed mars.

Thanks for nothing earther.
mrlewish
not rated yet Mar 17, 2018
Wouldn't it just be easier to use an old Iron or salt mine? Put a nuclear reactor down there with a bunch of green houses and water/air purification plants and be done with it. Enough parts to last about 50 or so years, this should be enough time for the inhabitants to come back out and start over.
Mark Thomas
not rated yet Mar 17, 2018
Except that because of all the dust, smoke, haze, rain, and debris, you wouldn't be able to see them for centuries just like on a terraformed mars.


If that happened on Mars, I too would consider that to be a failure, and failure is not an option. I think the answer lies in matching the orbits of Mars and carefully selected impactors so the net energy yield is in the desired range. Both the polar targets and the impactors should contain mostly desired ices and as little other matter as possible. When they are vaporized, let's shoot for mostly water vapor and other desired gases. Small scale testing and massive computer simulation with our best minds should be recruited to make sure we scale slowly and get it right. Terraforming is a deadly serious business and should be treated as such. If we screw up on Mars the consequences could go on for a very long time. Nevertheless, imagine if in some distant day we could master terraforming.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 18, 2018
It's not your planet earther it's OUR planet. Martians will decide how they want to live don't you get that? And we much prefer our warrens to your open air pollution soup.

I know what your imperialism is about - you can't give up that urge to control everything. It's why you still cling to religions after all the trouble it's caused you; you still have so much to fear.

You live on the surface, exposed to all sorts of danger from the elements and each other. Your free-ranging atmosphere and populations means you cannot control the spread of pathogens, pollution, and insane notions about politics and religion. You constantly fight because your growth is out of control.

Your beautiful yosemite is sadly overrun with kudzu, starlings, and stinkbugs. Your ecologies are in ruins and there is nothing you can do about it.

Yes you have much to fear earther. Your planet has been murdered. Do you pray for salvation?
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 18, 2018
Up here we can control the spread of disease and pollution. Our mining and manufacturing is isolated from our living space. We test and treat diseased visitors and can isolate outbreaks immediately. And we certainly do not fear hurricanes, tornados, tsunamis, or even impactors as we live safely hundreds of feet below the surface.

You see, mars protects us while earth seeks to destroy you.

Most importantly, Martians have a long tradition of controlling thheir growth. Up here, children are a priviledge not a right. And that right is only granted to unaddicted and sane individuals who have proven themselves mature and responsible enough to bear that most important of all responsibilities.

So above all we do not fear each other.

Earthers look up at mars and know that it is far easier for us to get to them than it is for them to get to us. They want to ruin OUR planet just like they did theirs, so they can flee here whenever they want, and live in familiar misery.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 18, 2018
And of course we are not going to let that happen. Does that frustreaste you earther? So sad.

Mars offers earthers the only opportunity in the entire system to create another earth. Everywhere else people live just as we do, in completely artificial environments. And they will all tell you that they much prefer this than the smelly overcrowded sickly streets and highways and malls and parks of your dying planet.

Most of you never venture outside any more anyways.

Fix your own planet before you suggest ruining ours earther.

We are the future of humanity, you are the past. As you suggest, our divergence is what you really fear. Our people are healthier, smarter, saner, calmer, and much happier with our lives, than you. And it is because we can control where and how we live. We can control our destiny.

I suppose the only choice you have left is to let go and let god.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 18, 2018
Just consider, you are doomed specifically because you live on the surface. Your ecologies are ruined because there is no way for them to thrive in isolation any more. You cannot help but cross-contaminate. Your pandemics and invasive species mean that 'wild' will soon be extinct on earth.

Humankind has progressed beyond nature. There is no way for humans to live in concert with a natural environment any more. This was ended as soon as they began domesticating natural plants and animals, and replacing forests and meadows with farmland.

We are proud to say that we Martians are finally, completely domesticated. There are no wild ecologies on mars for us to ruin. We don't want them, we don't need them.
granville583762
5 / 5 (1) Mar 25, 2018
Take your pick, its Hobson's choice

If he manages to build a moon base, without an earth base to supply his moon base he will have only one or two weeks before his fuel and food supplies run out, that and out up the earth's protective magnetic shield he will be experiencing the Suns full blast of radioactive solar activity. What a choice to make; die on the moon of radiation and starvation, or die on the earth of radiation and starvation, an underground earthly cavern sounds a better choice
TrollBane
not rated yet Mar 28, 2018
There is this notion for paraterraforming using an asteroid. http://www.lakematthew.com/

Please sign in to add a comment. Registration is free, and takes less than a minute. Read more

Click here to reset your password.
Sign in to get notified via email when new comments are made.