Israel find may help solve mystery of biblical Philistines

July 10, 2016 by Yaniv Zohar
This Tuesday, June 28, 2016 photo shows archeologists excavating an ancient Phillstine cemetery near Ashkelon, Israel. The recent archaeological discovery in Israel may help solve a biblical mystery of where the ancient Philistines came from. A team of archaeologists excavating at the site of the biblical city of Ashkelon have announced it found the first Philistine cemetery ever to be discovered. Now the team is performing DNA, radiocarbon and other tests on bone samples found at the cemetery, dating to the 11th to 8th centuries B.C. (AP Photo/Tsafrir Abayov)

An archaeological discovery announced on Sunday in Israel may help solve an enduring biblical mystery: where did the ancient Philistines come from?

The Philistines left behind plenty of pottery. But part of the mystery surrounding the ancient people was that very little biological trace of them had been found—until 2013.

That's when archaeologists excavating the site of the biblical city of Ashkelon found what they say is the first Philistine cemetery ever discovered. They say they have uncovered the remains of more than 200 people there.

The discovery was finally unveiled Sunday at the close of a 30-year excavation by the Leon Levy Expedition, a team of archaeologists from Harvard University, Boston College, Wheaton College in Illinois and Troy University in Alabama.

The team is now performing DNA, radiocarbon and other tests on bone samples uncovered at the cemetery, dating back to between the 11th and the 8th centuries B.C., to help resolve a debate about the Philistines' geographical origins. The archaeologists have not announced any conclusions, saying they are taking advantage of recent advances in DNA testing to get the most accurate results.

"After decades of studying what Philistines left behind, we have finally come face to face with the people themselves," said Daniel M. Master, professor of archaeology at Wheaton College and one of the leaders of the excavation. "With this discovery we are close to unlocking the secrets of their origins."

This Tuesday, June 28, 2016 photo shows archeologists excavating an ancient Phillstine cemetery near Ashkelon, Israel. The recent archaeological discovery in Israel may help solve a biblical mystery of where the ancient Philistines came from. A team of archaeologists excavating at the site of the biblical city of Ashkelon have announced it found the first Philistine cemetery ever to be discovered. Now the team is performing DNA, radiocarbon and other tests on bone samples found at the cemetery, dating to the 11th to 8th centuries B.C. (AP Photo/Tsafrir Abayov)

A few human remains at Philistine sites had been discovered in past years, but they provided too small a sample to draw conclusions, he added.

The archaeologists kept the discovery a secret for three years until the end of their dig because of a unique hazard of archaeology in modern-day Israel: they did not want to attract ultra-Orthodox Jewish protesters, Master said.

"We had to bite our tongues for a long time," Master said.

In the past, the ultra-Orthodox have staged demonstrations at excavations where human remains are found, arguing that the remains could be Jewish and that disturbing them would violate a religious prohibition.

The Leon Levy Expedition itself faced ultra-Orthodox demonstrators in the 1990s, during the excavation of a Canaanite burial site.

This Tuesday, June 28, 2016 photo shows archeologists excavating an ancient Phillstine cemetery near Ashkelon, Israel. The recent archaeological discovery in Israel may help solve a biblical mystery of where the ancient Philistines came from. A team of archaeologists excavating at the site of the biblical city of Ashkelon have announced it found the first Philistine cemetery ever to be discovered. Now the team is performing DNA, radiocarbon and other tests on bone samples found at the cemetery, dating to the 11th to 8th centuries B.C. (AP Photo/Tsafrir Abayov)

In the Bible, the Philistines are depicted as the ancient Israelites' archenemy, a foreign people who migrated from lands to the west and settled in five main cities in Philistia, in today's southern Israel and the Gaza Strip.

The most famous Philistine was Goliath, the fearsome warrior who was slain by a young King David. The Philistines' legacy lives on in the name Palestine, the term the Romans gave to the region in the 2nd century, and which is used today by Palestinians.

Archaeologists and biblical scholars have long believed the Philistines came from the Aegean region, based on pottery found in excavations of Philistine sites.

But scholars have debated where exactly in the Aegean region the Philistines came from: mainland Greece, the islands of Crete or Cyprus, or even Anatolia, in modern-day Turkey.

The bones might hold the answers, said archaeologist Yossi Garfinkel, an Israeli expert on the period who did not participate in the dig. He called the cemetery find "a very significant discovery indeed."

This Tuesday, June 28, 2016 photo shows an archeologist taking notes at an ancient Phillstine cemetery near Ashkelon, Israel. The recent archaeological discovery in Israel may help solve a biblical mystery of where the ancient Philistines came from. A team of archaeologists excavating at the site of the biblical city of Ashkelon have announced it found the first Philistine cemetery ever to be discovered. Now the team is performing DNA, radiocarbon and other tests on bone samples found at the cemetery, dating to the 11th to 8th centuries B.C., to help resolve the debate about the Philistines' origins. (AP Photo/Tsafrir Abayov)

The excavation of the cemetery has also shed light on Philistine burial practices.

The Philistines buried their dead with perfume bottles, placed near the face. Near the legs were jars that likely held oil, wine or food. In some cases, archaeologists found the dead were buried wearing necklaces, bracelets, earrings, and even toe rings. Some were buried with their weapons.

"This is how Philistines treated their dead, and it's the code book to decoding everything," said archaeologist Adam Aja, a participant in the dig.

Finds from the cemetery went on display Sunday in an Israel Museum exhibition held at the Rockefeller Archaeological Museum in Jerusalem.

This Tuesday, June 28, 2016 photo shows archeologists excavating an ancient Phillstine cemetery near Ashkelon, Israel. The recent archaeological discovery in Israel may help solve a biblical mystery of where the ancient Philistines came from. A team of archaeologists excavating at the site of the biblical city of Ashkelon have announced it found the first Philistine cemetery ever to be discovered. Now the team is performing DNA, radiocarbon and other tests on bone samples found at the cemetery, dating to the 11th to 8th centuries B.C. (AP Photo/Tsafrir Abayov)

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gkam
1.6 / 5 (20) Jul 10, 2016
Interesting, . . . early victims of self-righteous religion.

Nothing has changed except our efficiency in killing for our gods.
Shootist
1.6 / 5 (24) Jul 10, 2016
Interesting, . . . early victims of self-righteous religion.

Nothing has changed except our efficiency in killing for our gods.


Your irrational hatred is unbecoming. All early civilizations mixed governing with belief in the unknowable. One might as well condemn the builders of Stonehenge or the Great Pyramid (or any of the mound builders)

Most peaceful time in the history of man and you are either too dense, or too corrupted by hatred, to recognize it. Were you dropped on your head as a child or is this something you learned at your father's knee?.
BiteMe
Jul 10, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
torbjorn_b_g_larsson
4.3 / 5 (24) Jul 10, 2016
Highly doubtful they can identify the people responsible for the graves, as always in these cases.

It likely won't trouble the lead "archaeologist" Master's though, since he teaches religion and publishes in "Biblical Archaeology Review". [ http://www.wheato...l-Master ]
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (24) Jul 10, 2016
The real mystery of the biblical philistines is why does the book describe Abraham residing in their midst when they didn't show up until centuries later?

OK another mystery is how could David have fought the philistines when archeologists tell us that the davidic/Solomonic kingdoms never existed?

Who wrote this book anyway?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (20) Jul 10, 2016
Most peaceful time in the history of man
Have you read the Bible? David and Goliath ring a bell?

But as the entire area was occupied by garrisoned Egyptian troops the whole time, the reality is that it was probably relatively peaceful. Until the philistines and the sea people showed up that is.
https://en.wikipe...alestine

-Sorry torbgen my S6 does not allow me to vote or I would be giving you 5/5s. Here and there.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
1.7 / 5 (22) Jul 11, 2016
The first two generations of "Hebrews" (Abraham's son and grandson, Isaac and Jacob) didn't intermarry with the Philistines or other tribes in the region. They married into their own families (cousin marrying cousin; uncle marrying niece). It was only in the time of Joseph and his brothers that they began marrying into Egyptian and Philistine families. Abraham's nephew left for Jordan to the East where he probably married a girl from the area. So there was mixing of Hebrew and Arab, which would also make it possible that cemeteries were shared, since both groups believed and worshipped in One God only, unlike the tribes in Mesopotamia to the East.
That the Philistine cemetery was found IN Israel makes it more likely that there was intermarriage.
torbjorn_b_g_larsson
4.2 / 5 (26) Jul 11, 2016

That the Philistine cemetery was found IN Israel makes it more likely that there was intermarriage.


Only if "philistines" really existed, and these are their graves. Both are highly doubtful, 50 % of these myths are totally erroneous and 50 % can't be tested.

Discussing religious myth as if it has any fact value whatsoever is a fool's game.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (20) Jul 11, 2016
Would be super cool if they could find the graves of Goliath or one of his brothers. Their taunting of the most high God brought them their deaths. Pray they could still yet teach a lesson to the atheists on this website
Hey it would be super cool if they could find the graves of paul bunyan and his blue ox babe. It would be super cool if I could shake hands in spiderman. Maybe if I go stand in times square he would eventually swing by.

Archeologists have found more than enough evidence to conclude that the kingdoms of david and solomon never existed because other things were going on back then that would have made them impossible.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (20) Jul 11, 2016
"Tel Aviv U. archaeologist Ze'ev Herzog in the Haaretz newspaper:

"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy..."

-So. Most ardent religionists would conclude that god replaced all the evidence for these things with totally convincing contrary evidence.

But most antireligionists would want to ask believers why their god would want to deceive them so thoroughly in order to find out how much they trusted him.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (18) Jul 11, 2016
shake hands in spiderman
Er I meant with spiderman. I am sure he would not appreciate the former. Its not like hes deadpool you know.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
1.9 / 5 (18) Jul 11, 2016

That the Philistine cemetery was found IN Israel makes it more likely that there was intermarriage.


Only if "philistines" really existed, and these are their graves. Both are highly doubtful, 50 % of these myths are totally erroneous and 50 % can't be tested.

Discussing religious myth as if it has any fact value whatsoever is a fool's game.
- tbgl

What is YOUR evidence that Philistines never existed? The Archaeologists themselves have said that it IS a Philistine cemetery. Are you refuting the claims of scientists?

"An archaeological discovery announced on Sunday in Israel may help solve an enduring biblical mystery: where did the ancient Philistines come from?"

AND

"The Philistines left behind plenty of pottery. But part of the mystery surrounding the ancient people was that very little biological trace of them had been found—until 2013."

Philistines existed in the region of Israel before Abraham arrived. He and his wife, Sarah died there.

Surveillance_Egg_Unit
1.7 / 5 (23) Jul 11, 2016

That the Philistine cemetery was found IN Israel makes it more likely that there was intermarriage.

It shows that modern Israel does not coincide with the habitat of the ancient Hebrews.


Your comment is vague. The one thing that modern Israel could have in common with ancient Hebrews is the religion of the Bible/Torah. Modern Israel is a far cry from the nomadic life of the ancient Hebrews, who lived in tents for the most part, unless they found enough stone or made bricks to build permanent dwellings. Cemeteries would have been laid out in locations that were far enough from dwellings, just as they now are

"shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort"
- Otto

This is patently untrue. Gender doesn't exist in the spiritual dimensions. Thus, sexual activity doesn't happen because sex is only allowed in living material objects such as animals/plants where it is necessary for procreation.



Surveillance_Egg_Unit
1.6 / 5 (19) Jul 11, 2016
Philistines existed in the region of Israel before Abraham arrived. He and his wife, Sarah died there.


You are jumping to conclusions with this non sequitur.
Also, the locations inhabited by the Philistines have only been added to Israel in modern times.


Please explain why you consider it a non sequitur.You seem to agree that Philistines DID exist in the region within or near Israel when you say, "the locations inhabited by the Philistines...".
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.4 / 5 (21) Jul 11, 2016
Philistines existed in the region of Israel before Abraham arrived. He and his wife, Sarah died there
NO they DIDNT.

"Most scholars therefore believe that the settlement of the Philistines took place in two stages. In the first, dated to the reign of Ramesses III (1186–1155 BC), they were limited to the coastal plain, the region of the Five Cities; in the second, dated to the collapse of Egyptian hegemony in southern Canaan, their influence spread inland beyond the coast.[64] During the 10th to 7th centuries BC the distinctiveness of the material culture appears to have been absorbed with that of surrounding peoples."

-And from one of your own religionist sites (because its hard to date a myth scientifically):

"Abraham is dated anywhere between c. 2100 and c. 1900 and this range of dates are then applied to the standard chronology of Mesopotamia."
https://answersin...potamia/

-700 years difference.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (21) Jul 11, 2016
- Otto

This is patently untrue. Gender doesn't exist in the spiritual dimensions
I see. So yahweh had a wife/husband/soulmate named asherah.

Youre a troll.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
1.5 / 5 (22) Jul 11, 2016
Sarah is said to have been entombed after her death in a cave that was sold to Abraham by a Philistine. This Philistine was also a believer in the One God, which is why he tried to give the cave freely to Abraham, who insisted on paying for the property.
I am fairly certain that the cave itself may have been located by Archaeologists. But they don't dare open it to see what's inside. They have to consider the problem of the ultra-orthodox European Jews/Khazars who would demand that the remains of Sarah not be disturbed, according to Jewish burial practices. It could turn ugly if they became hostile and it could endanger the lives of the scientists. If she is, indeed, entombed in the cave, it would lay to rest the doubts that Sarah and Abraham existed.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (21) Jul 11, 2016
I am fairly certain that the cave itself may have been located by Archaeologists. But they don't dare open it to see what's inside. They have to consider the problem of the ultra-orthodox European Jews/Khazars who would demand that the remains of Sarah not be disturbed, according to Jewish burial practices. It could turn ugly if they became hostile and it could endanger the lives of the scientists. If she is, indeed, entombed in the cave, it would lay to rest the doubts that Sarah and Abraham existed
Nice story troll. Do you sing yourself to sleep?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (18) Jul 11, 2016
Wait - I know what youre going to say
And how do you know it's wrong if you've never even seen the "explanations"? Obviously, they're keeping it under wraps until the right opportunity arises. There would be no point in explaining their Model to a layman - or a non-scientist - or a troll
-Right? Pussytard strikes again-
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
1.9 / 5 (17) Jul 11, 2016

That the Philistine cemetery was found IN Israel makes it more likely that there was intermarriage.

It shows that modern Israel does not coincide with the habitat of the ancient Hebrews.


Your comment is vague.

No it is not.
The one thing that modern Israel could have in common with ancient Hebrews is the religion of the Bible/Torah.

Why not also territory, DNA, ... ?


The territory is already claimed. DNA is not always apparent since many Jews do NOT have the DNA of the Semites (which also include Arabs, Philistines/Palestinians) and many have been proven through DNA to be European/Khazarian and not Semitic at all. This has happened where Jews who thought that they are racially Hebrew were not, after all. Which goes to prove that, for the most part, Jewishness is NOT a race, but only a religion.

The DNA does not lie. There are also converts to Judaism who have taught their children that they are Jews.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.2 / 5 (17) Jul 11, 2016
"In the past, the ultra-Orthodox have staged demonstrations at excavations where human remains are found, arguing that the remains could be Jewish and that disturbing them would violate a religious prohibition."


This kind of religious prohibition is dangerous. The Israeli police should be guarding these scientists, especially now that they mol completed their dig and are examining DNA samples. It will be interesting if they find what they are looking for from the remains.
I don't see why the Philistines could not have originated in the area of Canaan. Even if they proved to be Greeks originally, they would still have become Philistine and existed in the region before Abraham and Sarah arrived in Canaan.
Whydening Gyre
4.8 / 5 (17) Jul 11, 2016
Sarah is said to have been entombed after her death in a cave that was sold to Abraham by a Philistine. This Philistine was also a believer in the One God, which is why he tried to give the cave freely to Abraham, who insisted on paying for the property.
I am fairly certain that the cave itself may have been located by Archaeologists. But they don't dare open it to see what's inside. They have to consider the problem of the ultra-orthodox European Jews/Khazars who would demand that the remains of Sarah not be disturbed, according to Jewish burial practices. It could turn ugly if they became hostile and it could endanger the lives of the scientists. If she is, indeed, entombed in the cave, it would lay to rest the doubts that Sarah and Abraham existed.

How would they know it's her?
antiantigoracle
Jul 11, 2016
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antiantigoracle
Jul 11, 2016
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ElectricBoobVerses
Jul 11, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
CockyChocachubra
Jul 11, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
1.8 / 5 (15) Jul 11, 2016
Why not also territory, DNA, ... ?


The territory is already claimed.

So? Claimed or not and regardless by whom, the territories of present and ancient inhabitations will overlap.
DNA is not always apparent

So? That does not mean there is no DNA overlap.
since many Jews do NOT have the DNA of the Semites (which also include Arabs, Philistines/Palestinians) and many have been proven through DNA to be European/Khazarian and not Semitic at all.

And where is your proof or reference to proof?
The DNA does not lie.

But those who present it as an argument may, especially if the argument is made without very solid proof.


The proof is in the hands of each individual who had a DNA test done to determine whether they are Jewish or not. The ones who chose to reveal their results have made it known that they were found to not have any Semitic DNA - sadly.

What do you mean by DNA overlap?
Telekinetic
1.8 / 5 (16) Jul 11, 2016
From the writings of Josephus, a Jewish Roman General, whose accounts are widely considered trustworthy among historians:

"They had a man who was six cubits tall, and had on each of his feet and hands one more toe and finger than men naturally have. Now the person who was sent against them by David out of his army was Jonathan, the son of Shimea, who fought this man in a single combat, and slew him; and as he was the person who gave the turn to the battle, he gained the greatest reputation for courage therein. This man also vaunted himself to be of the sons of the giants. But after this fight the Philistines made war no more against the Israelites."
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
1.5 / 5 (22) Jul 11, 2016
@Telekinetic
"...one of the sons of the "giants"? I will need to read Josephus again, having read the book many years ago.
The giants spoken about in the Bible, and also in another book that was written by Enoch, aka "The Book of Enoch" were the Nephilim. These Nephilim were the Fallen Angels who were convinced to come down to Earth by one who had become enamored by a human female. Two hundred took human women for their wives. But the result was catastrophic.
I suggest that everyone should become familiar with that book and its story about the Nephilim.

Perhaps the giant described by Josephus was indeed, the son of giant Nephilim. The intercourse between Angel and human produced giants (men of renown). For Angels to have the ability to procreate, they would have had to transform their bodies from spiritual to material form...pure spiritual energy transformed into matter. It has never been done again since.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
1.9 / 5 (18) Jul 11, 2016
For anyone interested in the life and times of Flavius Josephus --

http://reluctant-...phus.htm
Whydening Gyre
4.7 / 5 (14) Jul 11, 2016
For anyone interested in the life and times of Flavius Josephus --

http://reluctant-...phus.htm

SEU,
You do realize that a major component of early biblical tomes was metaphor, right?
Not necessarily referring to Josephus, of course, but even he may have been subject to the communication modalities of the time)
CockyChocachubra
Jul 12, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
CockyChocachubra
Jul 12, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Protoplasmix
4.8 / 5 (18) Jul 12, 2016
For Angels to have the ability to procreate, they would have had to transform their bodies from spiritual to material form...pure spiritual energy transformed into matter. It has never been done again since.
Um, if you're gonna cite the bible you might wanna skip to the newer part where the Chief Angel Himself does Joe's virgin wife. How does it feel to be wrong about being wrong? What a complete waste of perfectly good gray matter.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (17) Jul 12, 2016
From the writings of Josephus, a Jewish Roman General, whose accounts are widely considered trustworthy among historians:

"They had a man who was six cubits tall, and had on each of his feet and hands one more toe and finger than men naturally have. Now the person who was sent against them by David out of his army was Jonathan, the son of Shimea, who fought this man in a single combat, and slew him; and as he was the person who gave the turn to the battle, he gained the greatest reputation for courage therein. This man also vaunted himself to be of the sons of the giants. But after this fight the Philistines made war no more against the Israelites."
Right. Except that as he describes biblical people and events as history that we now know are lies, we can conclude that josephus was a hack and a religious propagandist.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (18) Jul 12, 2016
It's interesting Josephus only mentioned "Jesus" in passing. But that was actually James
Why do people insist on making up their own religious bullshit when the original stuff is already bullshit?

"One of the key internal arguments against the total authenticity of the Testimonium is that the clear inclusion of Christian phraseology strongly indicates the presence of some interpolations. For instance, the phrases "if it be lawful to call him a man" suggests that Jesus was more than human and is likely a Christian interpolation."
https://en.wikipe...passages

-ie adulteration. Forgery. Graffiti.

We need less bullshit not more bullshit. I think feynman said this.
Sheik_Yerbuti
Jul 12, 2016
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Sheik_Yerbuti
Jul 12, 2016
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CrankCancerKiller
Jul 12, 2016
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TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (11) Jul 12, 2016
Get off yer high horse Otto. The guy said, "If he existed"
What guy are you talking about? Please try to be more specific.

And who said this?
you say you personally met E.T.'s flying machine


Are you a sock of somebody I put on ignore? I think maybe yes esai-

You really need to get otto to talk to you that badly?
DonCarloFantasia
Jul 12, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Captain Stumpy
3.4 / 5 (10) Jul 12, 2016
FartY 1 / 5 (6) 20 hours ago
Their taunting of the most high God brought them their deaths. Pray they could still yet teach a lesson to the atheists on this website.


OK. You do that. Purely a troll, or do you understand *anything* about science?
@ElectricBoobVerses
better be careful... i just found this commercial from the literalist fundies

PRAYERMAX 5000
https://www.youtu...fLJVSdjg

ROTFLMFAO

.

.

How would he know that, Stumpy?
@DonCarloFantasia
who are you posting to?
this is my first post on the thread, so i don't know to what or to whom you are referring

torbjorn_b_g_larsson
4.1 / 5 (13) Jul 12, 2016
@SEU:
Are you refuting the claims of scientists?


What is there to refute? As I already noted, highly unlikely they can identify the group, and highly unlikely there ever were anything like the myth. See TGO comment how the archaeological evidence reject it when it can, precisely as we would expect.

What in the concept of "myth" don't you understand?

And in the end of your comment you refer to the myth as if it was fact, when it is in need to be established first, and unlikely proposal. Please stop that, it is gibberish.

The one thing that modern Israel could have in common with ancient Hebrews is the religion of the Bible/Torah.


These finds are much older. The Dead Sea Scrolls shows that there was no such religion at the time, it started to develop 500 - 800 years later. The first find of those texts are many centuries younger, and much different from the DSS.
torbjorn_b_g_larsson
4.1 / 5 (14) Jul 12, 2016
From the writings of Josephus, a Jewish Roman General, whose accounts are widely considered trustworthy among historians:


Josephus was the first historian of the area.

But when Josephus refers to myth obviously all you learn is that there were such a myth at the time. He believed, as many earlier historians, that oral myths were actual history of earlier times. We no longer do that, which is precisely why we rely on written and correlated texts (correlated with other texts, but even better with archaeological material) to hopefully get some grounding in actual events.

He was also a bit so-so, and biased, and his books had some choice faked material inserted later by religionists, as already commented on. A source among others, as long as one are aware of the pitfalls.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (13) Jul 12, 2016
But when Josephus refers to myth obviously all you learn is that there were such a myth at the time. He believed, as many earlier historians, that oral myths were actual history of earlier times. We no longer do that, which is precisely why we rely on written and correlated texts (correlated with other texts, but even better with archaeological material) to hopefully get some grounding in actual events
Hard to know what he believed but as his writings have been used through the ages as so-called independent and scholarly confirmation of these myths where none existed, its reasonable to assume that that was their intended purpose.

And the subsequent xian adulterations served the same purpose didnt they?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (14) Jul 12, 2016
You can not discard story in the OT only because at some point in time it had been orally transmitted
We dont have to.

"Tel Aviv University archaeologist Ze'ev Herzog wrote in the Haaretz newspaper:

"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai."

-We have evidence.
Whydening Gyre
4.6 / 5 (9) Jul 12, 2016
We need less bullshit not more bullshit. I think feynman said this.

Don't know what Feynman said, but Einstein said "everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler..."
DonCarloFantasia
Jul 12, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Sheik_Yerbuti
Jul 12, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
ElectricBoobVerses
Jul 12, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (7) Jul 12, 2016
What about Elephantine then?

What, this?

"a Jewish community, perhaps made up of mercenaries, dating to sometime in the 6th century BC"

-as compared with

"1446 BC and claim it is 1270 BC" for the exodus. And mercenaries are not slaves. And Goshen is up near the delta.
://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Goshen#/media/File:Egypt_terrain_map_Cairo_Karnak.jpg

-and there were never any 2M Jews anywhere in Egypt, especially goshen, until modern times.

You should've tried Hyksos or habiru.

antigoracle
3 / 5 (2) Jul 13, 2016
It would be super cool if I could shake hands in spiderman.

You Philistine!!
OdinsAcolyte
2.6 / 5 (5) Jul 13, 2016
So much doubt and denial. The arguments against these people existing are so very contorted.
Amusing. I don't understand why it matters so much to those who rail against history. You cannot rewrite the past. It can be revealed. Prejudice has no place in science.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (5) Jul 13, 2016
@TGO
I am fully aware of both topics, but still, the Israelites were in Elephantine and even had a temple there.
So what? What does this have to do with the exodus??

Herzog is not saying that everything in the bible is false. The authors were careful to add real events and places to their myths in order to make the deception more believable.

But nowhere in the OT does it describe a colony of jewish mercenaries on an island in the nile in the 6th century BC, nor does that have anything to do with what herzog is talking about.

So what DOES the bible have to say about events in the 6th century BC, and what might a supposed settlement on elephantine have to do with it? This is your homework assignment.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
4 / 5 (5) Jul 13, 2016
From the writings of Josephus, a Jewish Roman General, whose accounts are widely considered trustworthy among historians:


But when Josephus refers to myth obviously all you learn is that there were such a myth at the time. He believed, as many earlier historians, that oral myths were actual history of earlier times. We no longer do that, which is precisely why we rely on written and correlated texts (correlated with other texts, but even better with archaeological material) to hopefully get some grounding in actual events.

He was also a bit so-so, and biased...
- tbgl

You seem to regard Josephus as a liar whose historical accounts were all based on myth. If that were the case, then who's to say that ALL historians are not liars who make up stories based on myth? Were there any of his time who demanded substantiation/evidences for his assertions? Most people of that time couldn't even read or write. Do you think that he didn't do research before writing?

Surveillance_Egg_Unit
3.7 / 5 (6) Jul 13, 2016
@SEU:
Are you refuting the claims of scientists?


What is there to refute? As I already noted, highly unlikely they can identify the group, and highly unlikely there ever were anything like the myth. See TGO comment how the archaeological evidence reject it when it can, precisely as we would expect.

What in the concept of "myth" don't you understand?

And in the end of your comment you refer to the myth as if it was fact, when it is in need to be established first, and unlikely proposal. Please stop that, it is gibberish.
-tgbl

According to the article, the archaeologists have claimed that the cemetery is Philistine within Israel. THEY made that claim, but it is YOUR OPINION ONLY that their claim is likely false. You have injected the issue with your own "confirmation bias" due to your bigotry against Hebrew and Christian religions. You seem to prefer a society without judeo-Christian beliefs, as though the absence would create a Utopian world. It will not.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
4.3 / 5 (6) Jul 13, 2016
IMO and, I'm quite certain that all believers in their respective religion would agree, that the issue would be best resolved when the cave that was sold to Abraham, and in which he and his family are entombed (as told in Genesis), would be opened by the Archaeologists at Hebron (Canaan) and samples of the remains be taken for DNA testing. It would not only settle the matter once and for all as to the true identity of Abraham and Sarah, who were brother and sister, but also to determine who are true Hebrews in the modern age and who have the "right of return" to Israel as the true descendants of Abraham. This would also settle the Philistine/Palestinian question when the DNA samples are taken from them to determine if they, too, are descended from Abraham and Sarah. Anyone who claims to be a Jew whose DNA doesn't match with the DNA of Abraham, if he is in that cave, will need to vacate their habitat in Israel and go back to Europe or America.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
5 / 5 (4) Jul 14, 2016
Good catch, Phys
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (6) Jul 14, 2016
Jesus.

You'll note that that quote is obviously an excerpt from a much longer article, itself a summation of a great body of work that herzog and 100s of other archeologists have accumulated over the last century.

And if you were familiar with the bible as well as the gist of this work, you will know that herzog was talking specifically about Israel at the time of the exodus and before, as described IN THE BIBLE.

The bible does not talk about Elephantine mercenaries.

Does the bible have anything to say about Jews in egypt in the 6th century BC?

There were Jews elsewhere in Eurasia at the time. Does the bible have anything to say about them?

Again herzog was talking about biblical archeology, the Israelites under moses, the exodus, the Joshuan invasion.

None of that has anything to do with mercenaries on an island in the 6th century.

Are you going to ask why herzog didn't mention all of this in that one little paragraph?
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
3.7 / 5 (6) Jul 15, 2016
@Phys1
The link you offered is very interesting. However, the date of its publishing is:

"Ha'aretz.com Friday, October 29, 1999
Deconstructing the walls of Jericho
By Ze'ev Herzog"

October 29, 1999 is ~17 years ago and Archaeologists have found many artifacts since that time with regard to biblical history.

The archaeological digs are ongoing and the scientists are finding many items that prove the Biblical accounts.
Take care and try to avoid being fooled by Otto's insistence that the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt and that there was no exodus. Otto is DESPERATE to invalidate the existence of God the Creator for his own personal reasons. Mankind throughout history has made mistakes and the Bible, for the most part, is a living document. It portrays the Hebrews as an imperfect people, just as all of mankind have been imperfect since the creation of Adam from the clay. It was meant to be. Even SOME of God's Holy Angels have turned out to be imperfect and worse.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Jul 15, 2016
@TGO
I already suspected that the quote needed some more context.
Please add a link to the article
Please do your own research. You apparently need to do a lot. I would try dropping the quote in google.
try to avoid being fooled by Otto's insistence that the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt and that there was no exodus
You do realize that youre not arguing with me, youre arguing with

"Ze'ev Herzog... an Israeli archeologist, professor of archaeology at The Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Cultures at Tel Aviv University specializing in social archaeology, ancient architecture and field archaeology. Ze'ev Herzog served as director of The Sonia and Marco Nadler Institute of Archaeology from 2005 to 2010, and has served as archaeological advisor to the Israel Nature and National Parks Protection Authority in the preservation and development of National Parks at Arad and Beer Sheba."

-a jewish archeologist yes?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Jul 15, 2016
What makes you think that herzog would be less familiar with jews on elephantine than you?
Take care and try to avoid being fooled by Otto's insistence that the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt and that there was no exodus. Otto is DESPERATE to invalidate the existence of God
Sounds like phyzz is desperate to invalidate otto, which he why he thinks that arguing with herzog by proxy makes any sense at all.

And I am no atheist. Im an antireligionist.
The archaeological digs are ongoing and the scientists are finding many items that prove the Biblical accounts
No theyre not. Theyre finding just the opposite which is why pros like herzog feel confident in reaching the conclusion that theyre myths.

Saying something is true doesnt make it so. Of course you learned this little mind trick from the book written by people who swore by it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Jul 15, 2016
Otto's insistence that the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt
... ok.

For instance this is how little phyzz knows about the subject of israelite slaves.
http://www.seeker...593.html
I would even say this to Herzog, after reading the news article that you did not provide
Its not up to me to provide you with anything. I trust the conclusions of an emminent jewish archeologist from tel aviv university re biblical veracity. You dont?

You dont know near enough about the subject.
And how is an antireligionist not an atheist?
AGAIN, this is the internet. GOOGLE IT.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Jul 15, 2016
Straw man argument. I don't and clearly stated so above.
What makes you think he would say that "the Israelites were never in Egypt" while being a jewish archeologist and thus apparently knowing about jews on elephantine? You think he didnt know?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (6) Jul 15, 2016
You also don't know about some letters from Palestine to the Pharao in which local rulers complain about attacks
What makes you think herzog didnt know that when he made the statement "the Israelites were never in Egypt"?

Do you think you are missing something here?
I am tired of feeding links to people like you
First off, fuck you. Second, excerpts are better than links. Drop it into google and find out all the many things you dont know.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Jul 15, 2016
Still in my opinion if you quote, you should provide the reference
I am tired of feeding links to people like you.
gkam
1.8 / 5 (5) Jul 16, 2016
Now we get to see otto go crazy again.

Get ready for some filthy words.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
3.7 / 5 (6) Jul 16, 2016
17 years after Herzog's attempt to denigrate the existence of the Hebrews - beginning with Abraham and Sarah, the work that dedicated Archaeologists continue to do in Israel and surrounding regions in the Middle East, continues unabated. Much of the evidence that David and Solomon and other biblical characters once existed are immortalized in stone edifices and other hard materials.

(cont'd)

Surveillance_Egg_Unit
3.7 / 5 (6) Jul 16, 2016
(cont'd)
https://books.goo...;f=false

"Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction
published 2012
Here are some excerpts from the above link:

AMARNA TABLETS - From 1400 to 1375 BC, the kings of the small city-states of Palestine wrote letters to the pharaoh of Egypt asking help against the hapiru, who seemed to be raiders and lawless groups. These letters tell us much about the land just before the Hebrew exodus. Even the words Hebrew and hapiru may be related.

(cont'd)
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
5 / 5 (5) Jul 16, 2016
(cont'd)
MERNEPTAH STELE - The first mention in any ancient text is found in an inscription of Pharaoh Merneptah about 1208 BC. claiming he wiped out "Israel" in his attack on Palestine during that year. It is very important in establishing that an ethnic group called "Israel" resided in southern Palestine at the time.

Sheshonq INSCRIPTION - This pharaoh attacked and devastated both the Northern Kingdom Israel and the Southern Kingdom Judah in 918. The attack is recorded in 1 Kings 14:25-26 and by the pharaoh himself on the walls of the Temple of Karnak in Thebes.

THE BLACK OBELISK - King Shalmaneser III of Assyria left a memorial column on which he pictures King Jehu of Israel (842 - 815) bowing down before him submitting to Assyrian rule. Jehu's career is recorded in 2 Kings 9 - 10, but this event is not mentioned in the biblical account.

(cont'd)
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
5 / 5 (4) Jul 16, 2016
(cont'd)
SENNACHERIB'S PRISM - 1 Kings 18 - 19 tells the story of how King Sennacherib of Assyria attacked Jerusalem, and how suddenly the city was spared by divine help after an oracle by Isaiah the prophet. Sennacherib himself left a detailed account of this battle that does not admit defeat but does hint that he failed to take Jerusalem.

(cont'd)
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
4.3 / 5 (6) Jul 16, 2016
(cont'd)
THE HOUSE OF DAVID INSCRIPTION - In 1993, a fragment of a large inscription was found at Tell Dan, in the north of Israel, containing the first mention of King David outside of the Bible. Scholars suggest Jehoash, king of Israel (798 - 782 BC), or some other northern king of the period broke the inscription stone because it was a reminder of past Aramaean domination.
"[…] my father went up [against him when] he fought at […] And my father lay down, he went to his [ancestors]. And the king of I[s]rael entered previously in my father's land. [And] Hadad made me king. And Hadad went in front of me, [and] I departed from [the] seven […]s of my kingdom, and I slew [seve]nty kin[gs], who harnessed thou[sands of char]iots and thousands of horsemen [or horses].

(cont'd)
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
4.3 / 5 (6) Jul 16, 2016
(cont'd)
THE HOUSE OF DAVID INSCRIPTION
[I killed Jeho]ram son of [Ahab] king of Israel, and [I] killed [Ahaz]iahu son of [Jehoram kin]g of the House of David. And I set [their towns into ruins and turned] their land into [desolaton…] other […and Jehu ru]led over Is[rael…and I laid] siege upon […].
Israel Exploration Journal 45 (1, 1995), 13
gkam
1 / 5 (3) Jul 16, 2016
"HEART DESIRE" too?
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
5 / 5 (4) Jul 16, 2016
"HEART DESIRE" too?


hmmm...Is that Dr Axe who has an office in downtown Abuja in the Republic of Nigeria?
@George...he will give you your HEART DESIRE in exchange for your name, date of birth, address, phone #, email, SS #, work and military history, the names of your parents, grandparents and siblings and where they can be reached, AND your bank account numbers. You must know the routine by now.

Surveillance_Egg_Unit
3.7 / 5 (6) Jul 17, 2016
What happened to Phys1?
Anyway, here is another informative link:
https://books.goo...;f=false

For more links on King David, google the words, "king david" and "tell dan".
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (5) Jul 17, 2016
Phyzz opines
But I did read your last post, as I was going through them to report you to the non-existent moderator for violating the non-enforced guidelines
Strange. I guess phyzz phorgot that he posted the exact sentiment phirst...
Find those letters yourself. I am tired of feeding links to people like you
I suspect drunk-posting.
Farewell
-sweet prince? BTW you insulted otto first. Was it Manischewitz?

I see from his last few posts that phyzz finally found Google.

Good on ya.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (5) Jul 17, 2016
THE HOUSE OF DAVID INSCRIPTION
[I killed Jeho]ram son of [Ahab] king of Israel, and [I] killed [Ahaz]iahu son of [Jehoram kin]g of the House of David. And I set [their towns into ruins and turned] their land into [desolaton…] other […and Jehu ru]led over Is[rael…and I laid] siege upon […].
Israel Exploration Journal 45 (1, 1995), 13
Ahab is the first Israeli king supported by actual evidence. It is reasonable to assume that other people in the area at the time knew that Israel referred to themselves as descendants of mythical kings.

'House of david' is no more evidence that David existed than 'in God we trust' is evidence that god exists.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
3 / 5 (6) Jul 17, 2016
@Phys1
As I had said earlier, the search for biblical and historical artifacts by Archaeologists is ongoing. It is an almost certainty that there are other stela with the name David elsewhere in the region.The name "Israel" was a God-given name to Jacob, the son of Isaac (or Yitzhak), and thus had become the name of the group of people who had descended from Jacob aka Israel. King David and his son, Solomon were post-Exodus in Israel. Therefore, whatever artifacts that could prove the existence of King David and his descendants would, by necessity, BE IN Israeli and/or Canaanite territory.
At this time, I believe that there is a more pressing need for Archaeologists to examine the cave at Hebron (in Palestinian territory) to locate the remains of Avraham and his wife/sister Sarah and their son and grandson and their wives who are said to be entombed in the same cave.
It is of critical importance to determine who are their descendants and if the Palestinians have Abrahamic DNA.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
5 / 5 (4) Jul 17, 2016
(cont'd)
There is also the Muslim question. The people of Palestine and surrounding areas regard the first son of Abraham whose name was Ishmael as their ancestor, and due to that ancestry, they are also descended from Abraham (and indirectly from Sarah). Because of this ancestry, the Palestinians could also be considered as Hebrew. Their Muslim faith is only the result of the forces of Islam taking over the regions who were already monotheists.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
5 / 5 (4) Jul 17, 2016
@SEU
Sheshonq INSCRIPTION - This pharaoh attacked and devastated both the Northern Kingdom Israel and the Southern Kingdom Judah in 918. The attack is recorded in 1 Kings 14:25-26 and by the pharaoh himself on the walls of the Temple of Karnak in Thebes.

Ancient rulers like to brag about their conquests and battles, as this fortifies their hold on power. So the following quote is significant:
"Firstly, no United Monarchy of Israel and Judah occurs in Shoshenq's list of conquered enemies; second, the material culture of 10th century Jerusalem and surroundings was too primitive to allow for any treasure that an Egyptian pharaoh would have been interested in. Israel Finkelstein concludes that the looting narrative "should probably be seen as a theological construct rather than as historical references".
https://en.wikipe...arrative
- Phys1
Ancient Hebrews understood the value and methods in making gold and silver. Also slaves, cattle, etc
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 17, 2016
THE HOUSE OF DAVID INSCRIPTION
[I killed Jeho]ram son of [Ahab] king of Israel, and [I] killed [Ahaz]iahu son of [Jehoram kin]g of the House of David. And I set [their towns into ruins and turned] their land into [desolaton…] other […and Jehu ru]led over Is[rael…and I laid] siege upon […].
Israel Exploration Journal 45 (1, 1995), 13
Ahab is the first Israeli ki supported by actual evidence. It [...]other people in the area at the time knew that Israel referred to themselves as descendants of mythical kings.

'House of david' is no more evidence that David existed than 'in God we trust' is evidence that god exists.


House of Shlomo or House of Yehudi or some other name would have been less mythical for you? You seem to regard David as a myth only because the name appears in the Bible and you are psychologically hot-wired to place biblical characters that you don't like into the category of the patently impossible...without evidence for your assertions.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
5 / 5 (4) Jul 17, 2016
@SEU
Sheshonq INSCRIPTION - This pharaoh attacked and devastated both the Northern Kingdom Israel and the Southern Kingdom Judah in 918. The attack is recorded in 1 Kings 14:25-26 and by the pharaoh himself on the walls of the Temple of Karnak in Thebes.

Ancient rulers like to brag about their conquests and battles, as this fortifies their hold on power. So the following quote is significant:
"Firstly, no United Monarchy of Israel and Judah occurs in Shoshenq's list of conquered enemies; second, the material culture of 10th century Jerusalem and surroundings was too primitive to allow for any treasure that an Egyptian pharaoh would have been interested in. Israel Finkelstein concludes that the looting narrative "should probably be seen as a theological construct rather than as historical references".
https://en.wikipe...arrative
- Phys1

(cont'd)
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 17, 2016
From your Wiki link: "
In the very early years after the decipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphs, on chronological, historical, and linguistic grounds, nearly all Egyptologists identified Shishak with Shoshenq I.[4] This position was maintained by most scholars ever since, and is still the majority position. The fact that Shoshenq I left behind "explicit records of a campaign into Canaan (scenes; a long list of Canaanite place-names from the Negev to Galilee; stelae), including a stela [found] at Megiddo" supports the traditional interpretation.[5]

This shows that pharaoh Shishak/Shoshenq did, indeed, attack both Judah and Israel in 918 BC.
"a long list of Canaanite place-names from the Negev to Galilee..."
From Galilee in the North down to the Negev. Perhaps Shoshenq only knew place names, but not the names of the people he attacked.

http://www.jewish...res.html

Explains the values of shekels in ancient times.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (4) Jul 18, 2016
TGO
I wrote "I am tired of feeding links to people like you", meaning people who quote and tell others to google.
You wrote: "F*** you".
Can you spot the difference
Yeah you said one and I responded in kind. People will tend to respond that way when insulted.
is an almost certainty that there are other stela with the name David elsewhere in the region
How do you figure? Because it says David existed in your book?

The greatest evidence in this case is absence of evidence. The area has been explored in more detail than any other.

A great kingdom which spanned from the Mediterranean to the euphrates would have left roads, bridges, cities, quarries, monuments etc similar to the Phoenician or the hittites. But excent for one dubious stele there is nothing BUT evidence which says that other things were going on instead.

And all the surrounding cultures record interactions with each other, but none with the davidic/Solomonic kingdoms.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (4) Jul 18, 2016
""dwd" could be a name for a god ("beloved"), or could mean "uncle"... or, as George Athas has argued, that the whole phrase might be a name for Jerusalem (so that the author might be claiming to have killed the son of the king of Jerusalem rather than the son of the king from the "house of David".[19][20]

"Other possible meanings have been suggested: it may be a place-name, or the name of a god, or an epithet.

"the term bytdwd might refer to the name of a god, cultic object, epithet or a place and concludes that these possibilities have no firm basis. Rather, he finds that the preponderance of the evidence points to the ancient Aramaic and Assyrian word-patterns for geopolitical terms.

"can also be translated as "beloved" could refer to a mythical ancestor.[17] In Schmidt's view it is indeed likely[22] that the correct translation is "House of David.""

-King Arthur was a great British king did you know it? But he's a myth.

Use sources with complete info.
dluka5
5 / 5 (1) Jul 31, 2016
This is exciting, I hope to find out if it truly is a Philistine cemetery.

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