Coal dust kills 23,000 per year in EU: report

July 4, 2016
Coal accounts for 18 percent of the EU's greenhouse gas emissions in 2014 and a quarter of its electricity mix in 2015

Lung-penetrating dust from coal-fired power plants in the European Union claims some 23,000 lives a year and racks up tens of billions of euros in health costs, an NGO report said Tuesday.

Even as the bloc shifts towards renewable sources like wind and Sun energy, coal still accounted for 18 percent of the EU's greenhouse gas emissions in 2014 and a quarter of its electricity mix in 2015, said the analysis.

Emissions from 257 power plants for which data was available "were associated with 22,900 premature deaths in 2013," said the report entitled "Europe's dark cloud: How coal-burning countries make their neighbours sick".

There are a total of 280 coal-fired plants.

The study was compiled by researchers from four green energy lobby groups: the Health and Environment Alliance, the WWF, Climate Action Network Europe and Sandbag.

In addition to deaths, the report blamed coal plant pollution for nearly 12,000 new cases of chronic bronchitis and more than half-a-million asthma attacks in children in the EU in 2013.

The medical treatment required, as well as reduced productivity caused by absence from work, amassed "substantial costs" of 32.4 billion to 62.3 billion euros ($36 billion to $70 billion), said the report.

About 83 percent of deaths, some 19,000 in total, were blamed on inhalation of fine particulate matter, air-borne particles so small—under 2.5 micrometres in diameter—that they can enter deep into the lungs and bloodstream.

An NGO report attributed 4,690 premature deaths to coal power stations in Poland

Hearth disease, cancer

"Most common causes of death connected to particulate matter exposure are strokes, heart disease, chronic lung disease or lung cancer," said the report.

It warned the particles "are transported hundreds of kilometres and across national borders, impacting the health of people both within the country of production and further afield."

The report listed the EU's worst offenders, attributing 4,690 premature deaths to coal power stations in Poland, 2,490 to Germany, 1,660 to Romania, 1,390 to Bulgaria and 1,350 to Britain.

The five countries most affected by pollution from their own as well as neighbouring countries were Germany with 3,630 deaths, Italy with 1,610, France with 1,380, Greece with 1,050, and Hungary with 700.

"Air pollution is responsible for millions of deaths worldwide," Roberto Bertollini, the World Health Organization (WHO) representative to the EU said in a statement.

"Higher temperatures from climate change will exacerbate the problem."

A similar study in the United States had attributed more than 13,000 premature deaths to coal pollution, while Indian research has blamed as many as 115,000 premature deaths and 20 million asthma cases per year on coal.

In Paris last December 195 nations agreed to curb climate-altering greenhouse gas emissions from fossil fuels such as coal, oil and gas in a bid to limit global warming to "well below" two degrees Celsius (3.6 degrees Fahrenheit) from pre-industrial levels.

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149 comments

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gkam
1.9 / 5 (22) Jul 04, 2016
Yuck!
antigoracle
1.7 / 5 (22) Jul 05, 2016
Another report from the USGS in Colorado.
http://phys.org/n...lts.html
antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (24) Jul 05, 2016
But I'm sure Willie will be along shotly to tell us that not a single bird was harmed - so everything's fine.
humy
4.8 / 5 (17) Jul 05, 2016
Another report from the USGS in Colorado.
http://phys.org/n...lts.html


This link doesn't give a report from USGS in Colorado but rather from, " four green energy lobby groups: the Health and Environment Alliance, the WWF, Climate Action Network Europe and Sandbag...." (from this link )

thus you lie about this being another report from them and thus your link is irrelevant.
You have said nothing to debunk the claim of this link.
WillieWard
1.4 / 5 (21) Jul 05, 2016
"Lung-penetrating dust from coal-fired power plants in the European Union claims some 23,000 lives a year"
"...coal-burning countries make their neighbours sick"
"In addition to deaths, the report blamed coal plant pollution for nearly 12,000 new cases of chronic bronchitis and more than half-a-million asthma attacks in children in the EU in 2013."
"Most common causes of death connected to particulate matter exposure are strokes, heart disease, chronic lung disease or lung cancer,"
Zero deaths from Fukushima radiation and German pseudo-environmentalists have replaced carbon-free nuclear power by coal, spreading ashes to entire Europe, in order to compensate intermittency of their eco-friendly bird-choppers/landscape-destroyers.
krundoloss
4.5 / 5 (16) Jul 05, 2016
And how many thousands die from Nuclear Energy Per Year? According to this article, only about 13 people a year die from Nuclear Energy related ailments: http://www.theene...r-causes

So, it seems that Coal is just terrible. I had no idea that it emitted dangerous particulate matter at this scale, they need to recapture and reprocess that. If it cannot be done safely or economically, then maybe they should switch to Nuclear.
WillieWard
1.6 / 5 (20) Jul 05, 2016
There is no doubt, nuclear power is the safest per unit of energy produced.
"Deaths from PV solar-rooftop and IWT energy generation are about 16 and 4 times the deaths of nuclear energy generation, respectively, according to the World Health Organization."
http://www.theene...exposure
"In England, there were 163 wind turbine accidents that killed 14 people in 2011."
"In that same year, America produced about 800 billion kWhrs from nuclear with no deaths."
http://www.forbes...-humans/

antialias_physorg
4.6 / 5 (20) Jul 05, 2016
The problem with nuclear is not so much am "x people die each year" (and I know no one who makes that case)

The case against nuclear is more of an:
1) If something happens we have no way of cleaning it up. Entire regions can become uninhabitable/unusable for a very long time. If this stuff gets into groundwater then that's game over.

2) Fallout is not contained within borders (this is applicable to coal to some extent but not nearly as serious as for nuclear). The effects of fallout linger a long time (heck, I can't go hunting mushrooms in germany - 30 years after Chernobyl..and that was quite a ways away)

3) We have no clue what to do with the waste. Any technology where you have a totally unsolved issue of that magnitude should be an automatic no-go.

4) Nuclear isn't economically viable without massive subsidies.

5) There are better alternatives available that beat nuclear on all points.
WillieWard
1.4 / 5 (20) Jul 05, 2016
The case against nuclear is more a question of irrational fear spread by scaremongers, sensationalist mass media, academic alarmists, vested political interests and pseudo-environmentalists; they have no shame in keeping telling bizarre fables and conspiracy theories to scare the misinformed people, in this way they are able to induce much more deaths(abortions, heart-attacks, suicides) than radiation.
gkam
1 / 5 (18) Jul 05, 2016

We do not have filthy coal here, and we are ridding ourselves of nukes, for genuinely-clean power from renewables. We are not there yet, but are along the right path.

Now that we are almost through the Age of Nukes, who is going to PAY for the research into storage of the nasty stuff they put on us in their mad dash for profits?
WillieWard
1.4 / 5 (19) Jul 05, 2016
We do not have filthy coal here ...We are not there yet, but are along the right path.
gskam is very happy; he found a way to convert his fibs into electricity to power the entire state.
for genuinely-clean power from renewables
"renewables" should be read as "bird-choppers/landscape-destroyers and natural gas/fracking"
kochevnik
1.6 / 5 (13) Jul 05, 2016
@Willietard There is no doubt, nuclear power is the safest per unit of energy produced.
Only during WWIII
Zzzzzzzz
3.9 / 5 (22) Jul 05, 2016
Coal has so many bad points it's difficult to list them all - from the various methods of mining through all stages of preparation and use. It's historically been "cheap", so long as you conveniently ignore the rest of the iceberg of its costs. I for one will be glad to see the last of it, and hope I indeed do see the last of it. I am confident that renewables, in their current forms as well as in forms yet to be developed, will take over the power generation industry in my lifetime, despite the fact that there is more of that behind me than ahead of me. While we can never "turn back the clock" on warming, perhaps we will achieve an adjusted equilibrium that we can survive in.
HeloMenelo
3.9 / 5 (19) Jul 05, 2016
Another report from the USGS in Colorado.
http://phys.org/n...lts.html]http://phys.org/n...lts.html[/url]


Another report from the USGS in Colorado.
http://phys.org/n...lts.html]http://phys.org/n...lts.html[/url]


Another lie riducled by Humy, well Done Humy, This antigoracle monkey clown has no life other than being dominated by his oilmasters posting 24/7 glued to his screen, they throw him peanuts now and then so he get's frisky to please them again and so the cycle continues, makes for hilarious comedy :D
HeloMenelo
4.1 / 5 (18) Jul 05, 2016
The problem with nuclear is not so much am "x people die each year" (and I know no one who makes that case)

The case against nuclear is more of an:
1) If something happens we have no way of cleaning it up. Entire regions can become uninhabitable/unusable for a very long time. If this stuff gets into groundwater then that's game over.

2) Fallout is not contained within borders (this is applicable to coal to some extent but not nearly as serious as for nuclear). The effects of fallout linger a long time (heck, I can't go hunting mushrooms in germany - 30 years after Chernobyl..and that was quite a ways away)

3) We have no clue what to do with the waste. Any technology where you have a totally unsolved issue of that magnitude should be an automatic no-go.


Exactly, again showing antigoracle's sock willieclown the reality of the situation, of course their limited concentration does not unable him to think and understand it :D
Eikka
4.3 / 5 (12) Jul 05, 2016
(heck, I can't go hunting mushrooms in germany - 30 years after Chernobyl..and that was quite a ways away)


That's because certain kinds of mushrooms collect and concentrate radioactive cesium by 10,000 times above the surrounding levels. That's also why there have been proposals to plant these mushrooms in affected areas, harvest them, and then calcinate them to remove the radiocesium from the environment.

1) If something happens we have no way of cleaning it up.

It's not impossible to clean up after a nuclear accident. Just costly using conventional methods of topsoil removal.

3) We have no clue what to do with the waste.

Recycle and bury. It's not that difficult.

4) Nuclear isn't economically viable without massive subsidies.


Due to massive political barriers and bureaucratic hurdles against it.

5) There are better alternatives available that beat nuclear on all points.


That's debatable.
antialias_physorg
4.8 / 5 (17) Jul 05, 2016
That's also why there have been proposals to plant these mushrooms in affected areas

You are aware that the 'affected areas' are the size of a FUCKING CONTINENT?

Shut up and go crawl back under the rock where you got your education. Sheesh.

Recycle and bury. It's not that difficult.

Throwing something down a hole is not a solution.

Due to massive political barriers and bureaucratic hurdles against it.

Really? You know nothing about the history of nuclear. Do you know that the only reason it ever got off the ground was massive subsidies? 70ct a kWh in the beginning (No, this is not a typo. Seventy cent). Bureaucracy PUSHED this stuff. And would still be pushing it if it hadn't been for Fukushima (Merkel was already signing a reversal of the phase out when thet happened - against the will of the people and for her industry pals. Boy, did she ever quickly re-reverse that decision knowing it would be political suicide)
WillieWard
1.5 / 5 (15) Jul 05, 2016
it would be political suicide
Indeed politics/ideologies almost nothing to do with science/engineering nor with being really environmentally/ecologically friendly.
teslaberry
1.6 / 5 (14) Jul 05, 2016
i love people arguing against nuclear becuase it is subsidized when pretty much the newer any technology is the more it is subsidized, wind and solar are the most subsidized of all, particularly so if you take into account that the last 50 years of research in the area was almost 99% government subsidized.

the reality is that ALL industries that mature to get big were once subsidized by government.

the question of preference should not be whether or not something is subsidized but wehther or not it is competitive and effective in the long run.

it's a tough call, because ones own values determine what one believes is 'competitive and effective'.

if youre an eco-greenie than you believe the cost of something is not the price in dollars but some nebulous amount of attributed phd money that is quantified in expert papers on 'externalities'. these papers just pull numbers and figures out from thin air and use the statistics as a basis for taxing and regulating.
antigoracle
1.4 / 5 (19) Jul 05, 2016
This link doesn't give a report from USGS in Colorado but rather from, " four green energy lobby groups: the Health and Environment Alliance, the WWF, Climate Action Network Europe and Sandbag...." (from this link )

LOL. The astonishing stupidity of the Chicken Little.
If it had a brain then it might bother to look at the report and notice that it uses data provided by USGS analysis.
Shootist
1.4 / 5 (19) Jul 05, 2016
23,000 out of 508,000,000? 4.5x10^-5?

The very definition of insignificant.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (14) Jul 05, 2016
"expert papers on 'externalities'. these papers just pull numbers and figures out from thin air and use the statistics as a basis for taxing and regulating."
---------------------------------

I suggest you take an actual course in Environmental Economics and see who is screwing whom.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.5 / 5 (16) Jul 05, 2016
"expert papers on 'externalities'. these papers just pull numbers and figures out from thin air and use the statistics as a basis for taxing and regulating."
---------------------------------

I suggest you take an actual course in Environmental Economics and see who is screwing whom.
I suggest you do the work necessary to earn a real MS in environmental mgt instead of lying about the honorary MS you bought.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (16) Jul 06, 2016
23,000 out of 508,000,000? 4.5x10^-5?

The very definition of insignificant.

We take action for a lot less. (Heck, YOU voted to start a war for 25% of that number - and not per year, either, but total). So don't give us this shit about 'insignificant'.

Next time someone bombs a couple of thousand americans into oblivion I'll hurl that one back at you as 'insignificant'. Let's see how you react then.

Hypocrit.

Or is it that those 23k aren't all americans? In that case I redact the "hypocrit" and call you a racist. Take your pick.
humy
4.8 / 5 (17) Jul 06, 2016
The case against nuclear is more a question of irrational fear.

No it isn't. There are other reasons, mainly economic, to reject nuclear other than anything to do with perceived risks (whether those perceived risks reflect reality or not ) and many people, including myself, think nuclear can be/is safe but that is irrelevant because there are are better alternatives available that beat nuclear economically; usually wind power and hydroelectric being just two examples that usually beat nuclear ( depending on circumstances, of course ).
WillieWard
1.7 / 5 (17) Jul 06, 2016
usually wind power and hydroelectric
With help of fossil fuels of course, when wind is not blowing or sun is not shining, or during prolonged droughts.
alternatives available that beat nuclear economically
Natural gas/fracking is that is beating carbon-free nuclear power economically.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.5 / 5 (17) Jul 06, 2016
Next time someone bombs a couple of thousand americans into oblivion I'll hurl that one back at you as 'insignificant'. Let's see how you react then
Or germans. But you'll just blame that on the US as usual.

I say we wait for the caliphate to emerge and then beg them not to nuke us.

Or maybe they'll lose interest after they annex eurabia.
WillieWard
1.5 / 5 (16) Jul 06, 2016
Every kwh of power from a solar panel (for example) is one less Kwh from another source (such as fossil fuels,
Germany is an example that it is not true.
It is possible to run totally on renewables
As if hydro were available in any country, and dams were not an ecological problem.
HeloMenelo
4.3 / 5 (16) Jul 06, 2016
This link doesn't give a report from USGS in Colorado but rather from, " four green energy lobby groups: the Health and Environment Alliance, the WWF, Climate Action Network Europe and Sandbag...." (from this link )

LOL. The astonishing stupidity of the Chicken Little.
If it had a brain then it might bother to look at the report and notice that it uses data provided by USGS analysis.


guess what an iq of 1.6 out of 5 comes to... :D Well done monkey, you hit that banana jackpot again with your potty comment ;)
HeloMenelo
4.3 / 5 (17) Jul 06, 2016
23,000 out of 508,000,000? 4.5x10^-5?

The very definition of insignificant.


Can't read the numbers...again...? First try and shoot the potty dead on... ;)
humy
4.8 / 5 (16) Jul 06, 2016
usually wind power and hydroelectric
With help of fossil fuels of course, when wind is not blowing or sun is not shining, or during prolonged droughts.

No. Not "of course" because there are 3 ways of avoiding that and that shows your ignorance on this topic.

Firstly, there are OTHER renewable besides wind power and hydroelectric, such a tidal power, and, possibly potentially the best one because of its big advantage in giving continuous power, marine current power:
https://en.wikipe...nt_power

-certainly combining all 3 if required would do it, although you could throw out the most costly one of 2 if you want to and it still would do it.
humy
5 / 5 (15) Jul 06, 2016
-for some reason text was lost from my last post.

That should have continued with:

...

Secondly, haven't you heard of off-the-grid storage?
https://en.wikipe..._storage

Thirdly; super-grid:
https://en.wikipe...per_grid

-certainly combining all 3 (if required ) will do it.
antiantigoracle
Jul 06, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
HeloMenelo
4.1 / 5 (18) Jul 07, 2016
Turning around to talk to your own sock..... again ? ;) Monkey wants another bannana.. .:D
BongThePuffin
Jul 07, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
HeloMenelo
4.4 / 5 (19) Jul 07, 2016
O jeebs sorry my friend, had a busy day, you deserve those fives, so i'm giving it to you.... well said
BongThePuffin
Jul 07, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
antigoracle
1.6 / 5 (19) Jul 07, 2016
One more time. Slowly.

It's anti anti goracle, not anti goracle. Duh. Read the comments. ........hee haww....

INCREASE YOUR FONT

Dumb correcting Dumberer...
https://www.youtu...ExwB8GCM
ROTFLMAO
john berry_hobbes
4.1 / 5 (18) Jul 07, 2016
Earlier in the week antisciencegorilla was compared to Dumb and Dumber, how it is the most stupid that are always accusing others of being stupid. Good to know he read it, but how idiotic is it to do precisely what was described, using the original quote, and actually think that is some kind of retort?

The kind of idiot that would double down suborning the deaths of thousands. http://phys.org/n...due.html
antigoracle
1.8 / 5 (20) Jul 07, 2016
Earlier in the week....hee....hawww....heee....haawwww..

Awww... who is bitter...eh...who is bitter.... I called them DUMB when they are obviously DUMBERER.
LOL
PS: Having over a dozen suck puppets and no brain just confirms you are dumberer.
ChiefFartingDog
Jul 08, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
gkam
1 / 5 (18) Jul 08, 2016
Why can't we discuss things without the flaming attacks? What is it here that makes folks get crazy and hateful? I think it is the anonymity. Do any of you think the goober who calls himself "otto" would persist in his disgusting behavior if everybody around him knew it? Would "Ira" play that silly game of goober-speak and personal attack? Would Stumpy go crazy in his attack mode, screaming everyone else is the liar?

We are going to straighten out this forum.
WillieWard
1.8 / 5 (16) Jul 08, 2016
Why can't we discuss things without the flaming attacks? What is it here that makes folks get crazy and hateful?
I think it is the anonymity.
I think it is you. As far as I can remember it was gskam who cowardly started personal ("ad hominen") attacks against me.
His antinuclear/pro-renewable mates protect him.
So he attacks and plays the victim.
gkam
1 / 5 (19) Jul 08, 2016
Willuie, I am real, not an internet sniper with a phony name.

If I insult your phony name does it cause you damage? No. It is the give-and-take between two unknown folk.

But they are trying to actually hurt me personally, and will have to answer for it.
antigoracle
1.8 / 5 (17) Jul 08, 2016
And, in the news, 3 "green" terrorists consortium presents a report based on conjecture and generated with falsified data from the USGS. Hungry, ignorant Chicken Littles gather to gobble it up.
Da Schneib
4.5 / 5 (15) Jul 08, 2016
And, in the news, 3 "green" terrorists consortium presents a report based on conjecture and generated with falsified data from the USGS.
Errrmmmm, maybe you have a link? If it's this article or a repeat of it elsewhere then
1. It was only one person, not three,
2. There's no evidence it had anything to do with "green," much less "terrorism,"
3. It's not conjecture that the data was not accurate, it's right there in the article,
4. The person who did it doesn't generate reports, only data,
and
5. There's no evidence to say exactly what type of reports were generated on the data, and it's very unlikely that any of them had anything to do with AGW.

So, kneejerk much? Just askin, @antigore.
SteveS
4.7 / 5 (15) Jul 08, 2016
Why can't we discuss things without the flaming attacks? What is it here that makes folks get crazy and hateful? I think it is the anonymity. Do any of you think the goober who calls himself "otto" would persist in his disgusting behavior if everybody around him knew it? Would "Ira" play that silly game of goober-speak and personal attack? Would Stumpy go crazy in his attack mode, screaming everyone else is the liar?

We are going to straighten out this forum.


Why don't you just use the 'ignore user' button?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.1 / 5 (19) Jul 08, 2016
Why can't we discuss things without the flaming attacks?
Why cant you post without lying and making things up? I think its because you really believe that anything that occurs to you must be the truth. And further, we all must accept it as such because we now know your real name.

Hense the delusional psychopath diagnosis.
What is it here that makes folks get crazy and hateful?
We dont like liars and cheaters. How many times do you need to be told this??
I think it is the anonymity
George. Whether or not you know the real name of a person who rightly exposes a lie of yours, does not change the fact that it is a lie.

Your lies are well-documented. And you must realize that the shit you make up would still be shit even if you posted it anonymously.

The only difference would be that you and your family would not now be critically exposed on the internet.

Really, the true extent of your illness is breathtaking.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (19) Jul 08, 2016
One wonders about anything you've said here. Does george kamburoff really have a family or did he lose that too? Did he used to live at his alleged address but is now sitting in a facility for the criminally insane?

I mean you lied about your education and experience. You apparently lied about your EV and PV.

All sorts of questions come to mind.
ElectricBoobVerses
Jul 08, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
HeloMenelo
3.5 / 5 (11) Jul 09, 2016
One more time. Slowly.

It's anti anti goracle, not anti goracle. Duh. Read the comments. ........hee haww....

INCREASE YOUR FONT

Dumb correcting Dumberer...
https://www.youtu...ExwB8GCM
ROTFLMAO


what naughty books have you been reading.... naughty monkey...!
http://wecoloring...ng-page/
HeloMenelo
3.5 / 5 (11) Jul 09, 2016
What a fucking broken record. You need a face to match!


What a fucking broken record. You need a face to match!


i can show you his face, here antisciencegoralacle is:

http://i3.kym-cdn.../86d.jpg
HeloMenelo
3.5 / 5 (11) Jul 09, 2016
And, in the news, 3 "green" terrorists consortium presents a report based on conjecture and generated with falsified data from the USGS. Hungry, ignorant Chicken Littles gather to gobble it up.


The latest got it that a bafoon has been picking his nose, posting brainfart comments all over the physics forum, the media got this rare picture of him:
https://c2.static...ce_b.jpg

gkam
1 / 5 (11) Jul 09, 2016
Please stop ruining this forum with personal attacks!
Da Schneib
4.5 / 5 (8) Jul 09, 2016
Considering the number of personal attacks engaged in by various stripes of deniers here, and the notable lack of any sort of moderation, I personally am content to watch and even applaud as someone responds in kind.

In addition I am seeing these deniers' continual use of these types of personal attacks diminish as they reap what they have sown. Those who sow the wind will eventually reap the whirlwind, and I consider it nothing but justice. I suspect that we will see this sort of thing eventually diminish as the actions that stimulate it do. And I don't think that's "ruining the forum." All other methods have been extensively tried and made no difference but to increase it; if you see any alternative then feel free to point it out.
gkam
1 / 5 (12) Jul 09, 2016
Well, it is taking time, but I have contacted a British Barrister to sue PO for cleanup. If there are any "damages" to be paid, all the better. We will deal the the snipers.

http://www.bbc.co...35712772
gkam
1 / 5 (12) Jul 09, 2016
The British got sick of seeing folk like "otto" ruin the internet and the reputation of others, and passed a law against it. I think otto assumed I would not use it.

SURPRISE!!
Da Schneib
4.5 / 5 (8) Jul 09, 2016
I'm sure PO staff find that enormously amusing, as do I.
SteveS
4.6 / 5 (9) Jul 09, 2016
Please stop ruining this forum with personal attacks!


I would be really like to know why you don't just use the ignore user button. I've ignored quite a few people, not because of abuse but because I don't think they bring anything to the forum.

Basically if your a creationist, intelligent design, or EU believer I don't hear you.
SteveS
5 / 5 (9) Jul 09, 2016
I've ignored quite a few people, not because of abuse but because I don't think they bring anything to the forum.

Basically if your a creationist, intelligent design, or EU believer I don't hear you.


Sorry I should have added antigoracle to this list as well.
SteveS
4.2 / 5 (10) Jul 09, 2016
PS gkam, I'm British.

Whilst I I believe in freedom of speech, nothing says I have to listen!
gkam
1 / 5 (12) Jul 09, 2016
Oh, good. Then you will not mind if I use your real name and address and personal information here while I trash your reputation and person.

I came on this site assuming it was like my others, with real folk discussing real matters. At my age, we have experiences many of you folk do not, and when we share them, we learn. I guess that is a generational thing, and you kids have become senseless sharks.

No manners, no consideration, no character in the persona many of you folk project.

Why? Is it because when you are anonymous you are run by your Id? Is that it? Nobody watching brings out your real character?
gkam
1 / 5 (12) Jul 09, 2016
Steve S, you were not here for the beginning of this drama. In one of the threads rocket planes were the topic and I mentioned we had several at Edwards AFB, and was immediately challenged with screams of "LIAR!". When I sent a copy of the newspaper of the Air Force Flight Test Center to them with my picture on the front page, they went ballistic. Then we went through the matter of the Electronic Battlefield, and I had to send them to three military websites with my name and-or picture on them, including a highly-classified organization in which I was not a member - for my service to them.

There is more, but you get the idea. Providing proof to them did not stop the harassment, it increased their need to "get even".

So, here we are today, with my entreaties to the barristers. Know any others who deal with defamation?
SteveS
4.6 / 5 (11) Jul 09, 2016
At my age, we have experiences many of you folk do not, and when we share them, we learn. I guess that is a generational thing, and you kids have become senseless sharks.

No manners, no consideration, no character in the persona many of you folk project.


Whilst it has been over forty years since anybody has referred to me as a kid I still know better than to reveal personal information in a public forum.

The thing I like about anonymity is that it doesn't matter who I am or what I've done, it's just my thoughts and ideas that matter.

Please note that I haven't ignored you, because I think you make some interesting points, but I fully understand peoples annoyance regarding your constant references to your personal life and experience.

Frankly, it's annoying!
SteveS
4.6 / 5 (11) Jul 09, 2016
Steve S, you were not here for the beginning of this drama.


I've been here since August 2008, in physorg terms you're the one who's just a kid ;-)
gkam
1 / 5 (13) Jul 09, 2016
"Frankly, it's annoying! "
----------------------------

Then follow your own advice.

I just happened to do those things and use experience for validity and exposition. I expected questions regarding those experiences, not kids screaming across the playground in some pathetic ego contest.

For example Ira is here to play his "Uncle Ira Show " game. It's a science site, not a high-school blog. But I can take that, just not the sniping from folk too scared to take responsibility for their words.

Don't give me that "revealing yourself on the internet" crap, I had a web site in the late 1980's identifying myself and what I was doing then. I am real, and not afraid of the snipers.
SteveS
4.5 / 5 (12) Jul 09, 2016
There is more, but you get the idea. Providing proof to them did not stop the harassment, it increased their need to "get even".


Just as a matter of interest, how do I know you are not George's grandson, obviously all the information you have given would be available to him. It doesn't matter what you say, online you can't prove you are who you say you are, so don't rely on it in an argument.
gkam
1 / 5 (12) Jul 09, 2016
I certainly can, just ask Mike Masson who called me from Australia to check me out.

Gosh, I never thought I had such a n interesting life until I got here. I did not plan it, it just happened as I reacted to where I was at the time. In other fora, we identified ourselves, not just for validation, but out of courtesy as professionals. Imagine my surprise and discomfort to be met by otto and his screams of "LIAR!" and BULLSHIT!".
SteveS
5 / 5 (10) Jul 09, 2016
I certainly can, just ask Mike Masson who called me from Australia to check me out.

Gosh, I never thought I had such a n interesting life until I got here. I did not plan it, it just happened as I reacted to where I was at the time. In other fora, we identified ourselves, not just for validation, but out of courtesy as professionals. Imagine my surprise and discomfort to be met by otto and his screams of "LIAR!" and BULLSHIT!".


You have the option to ignore Otto, why don't you use it?

Mike Masson is just a name on the forum, he can't validate another name unless I know him personally!

Don't rely on your identity, your thoughts and ideas should stand on their own.
Da Schneib
5 / 5 (10) Jul 09, 2016
Don't rely on your identity, your thoughts and ideas should stand on there own.
Well said.
SteveS
5 / 5 (10) Jul 09, 2016
Don't rely on your identity, your thoughts and ideas should stand on there own.
Well said.


Bar the grammatical mistake now corrected

There, Their, The're

:-)
gkam
1 / 5 (12) Jul 09, 2016
Your point is moot: I have begun legal action.
SteveS
4.7 / 5 (12) Jul 09, 2016
Your point is moot: I have begun legal action.


I'm sorry to hear that, but please don't stop posting your thoughts as I find the interesting and useful, even if I don't agree with all of them.

However, again, I urge you to use the 'ignore user' option.
gkam
1 / 5 (12) Jul 09, 2016
Steve, I have recently been asked to participate in a very large operation, in which I would be the main part. I was retired, but will do this, if it goes right. It is important to me.

I identified myself on this site, then Ira and others put up pictures of my house and address and other info.

All of my business has been by word-of-mouth. All of it. I never advertised or went to a trade show unless I was speaking and paid for it. My reputation makes it possible to do this. When an otto or Ira or Stumpy starts screaming "STOLEN VALOR!" or "LIAR!", it plants seeds of doubt, and threatens my income.

And it violates the law.

I am taking action.
SteveS
4.3 / 5 (11) Jul 09, 2016
Steve, I have recently been asked to participate in a very large operation, in which I would be the main part. I was retired, but will do this, if it goes right. It is important to me.

I identified myself on this site, then Ira and others put up pictures of my house and address and other info.

All of my business has been by word-of-mouth. All of it. I never advertised or went to a trade show unless I was speaking and paid for it. My reputation makes it possible to do this. When an otto or Ira or Stumpy starts screaming "STOLEN VALOR!" or "LIAR!", it plants seeds of doubt, and threatens my income.

And it violates the law.

I am taking action.


I will read with interest regarding your progress as I have no doubt that you will feel the need to share, which is just a little sad.
gkam
1 / 5 (11) Jul 09, 2016
Then follow your own advice and put me on ignore or stop the sniping.

You have apparently never been personally and professionally attacked in public.
Sionnach
4.3 / 5 (12) Jul 09, 2016
@ gkam.

I am one who HAS followed the entire saga. As many people have pointed out, your antics have been consistent since you first signed up as a member of Phys.Org. You brought everything thrown at you on yourself.

I identified myself on this site, then Ira and others put up pictures of my house and address and other info.


When you say you identified yourself on this site, then you must accept the TOTAL responsibility for anything that anyone else might post about you that they found freely on the internet. Unless they stole the information from you by breaking into your house, or illegally accessing your computer, they are free to refer to anything they find on the internet.

TBC
gkam
1 / 5 (11) Jul 09, 2016
And if I do not lock my house, am I responsible when your bratty kid vandalizes it?

You must live in a strange world, with ethics to suit your temporal needs.
Sionnach
4.5 / 5 (15) Jul 09, 2016
Cont. @ gkam.

And it violates the law.
Again, I have watched your antics from the beginning. They have done nothing that violates the law. You are pissing in the wind. They comment and offer their OPINIONS of what YOU have to say. That's it. It does not matter whether their opinions valid or not. There is nothing illegal about it.

I am taking action.
You have no grounds for action. You provided everything that you are claiming harmed you. Freely without any consideration. They have not falsified records, only opined on the records that either you provided or are freely and legally available on the internet.

You have no grounds for action. You can not point to specific damages that anyone has caused you. Claiming they might have is not good enough, you have to prove they in fact did cause you some damage, and that any damages (such as "anguish") was caused by something you had no part in effecting.

Sionnach
4.5 / 5 (16) Jul 09, 2016
And if I do not lock my house, am I responsible when your bratty kid vandalizes it?
Yes you are if you invite him and anyone with him in to play. Which is exactly what you have done since you have been posting on Phys.Org.

You must live in a strange world, with ethics to suit your temporal needs.


Ethics are not laws. I do live in a strange world. Life would hold no joy if were not so. Ethics suits everyone's needs. What do they have to do with your fragile ego?
gkam
1 / 5 (11) Jul 09, 2016
http://www.bbc.co...35712772

I will let the barristers decide.

My name is the name of my company. My address is my professional address. That phone number is used by potential clients. The sophomoric claims like "Good luck getting more work after this" will help to highlight their malice.
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jul 09, 2016
This adolescent malice descended into pictures of my house, and threats to call and harass my wife!

It will stop.
Sionnach
4.7 / 5 (15) Jul 09, 2016
@ gkam. This is my last on this topic, you are welcome to last word.

My name is the name of my company.
Yet you freely engage in flaming sessions on an internet site. That is not good business practice.

My address is my professional address.
Yet you provide it freely when you decided to engage in flaming sessions.That is not very professional.

That phone number is used by potential clients.
Yet you freely provide it while engaged in internet flaming sessions. If I were you I would not worry about what the people here say about gkam. Your larger concern should be the gkam you freely show to the world.

The sophomoric claims like "Good luck getting more work after this" will help to highlight their malice.
That is not a sophomoric claim. Considering your displays on the Phys.Org it is more like an astute observation.

You are a very unstable individual and have no legal right to protection from what you freely initiate and participate in.
SteveS
5 / 5 (10) Jul 09, 2016
Then follow your own advice and put me on ignore or stop the sniping.


You don't meet my 'ignore' criteria. I'm sorry you feel I I was sniping, I was only trying to be constructive and helpful.

You have apparently never been personally and professionally attacked in public.


You know nothing about me, don't judge.

HeloMenelo
3.7 / 5 (9) Jul 09, 2016
nope i saw you bunking under a street lamp pole with a coin box shaking it like a rattle snake, so it's not true.
Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (13) Jul 09, 2016
Don't rely on your identity, your thoughts and ideas should stand on there own
@Steve
very well said...
thanks for making the cogent argument, however, it will fall on deaf ears (as it did, already, it seems)

i tried making the same points (privately, at first) but we're not dealing with a rational human
I was only trying to be constructive and helpful
i am truly sorry he didn't take your advice
it is great advice

.

.

.
@STOLEN VALOR liar-kam
Your point is moot: I have begun legal action.
where have i heard that one before?
oh... right...

i can't speak for anyone else, but i welcome the idea of facing you in a court

feel free to litigate to your hearts content - however, the above exchange between you and both SteveS and Sionnach will definitely hurt your own case

it's indicative of either a ruse to bully others into submission, ignorance of the law or completely ignoring your own lawyers advice
Uncle Ira
4.3 / 5 (16) Jul 09, 2016
@ Everybody.How yall are? The Bong-Puffing-Skippy try to give me some good advice that I been trying to take the last couple of days.Not talking to glam-Skippy so much, like yesterday and today too. This is not to glam-Skippy it is to Captain-Skippy.

@ Captain-Skippy. How you are Cher? I am good as I can be.

i tried making the same points (privately, at first) but we're not dealing with a rational human
That is true, I watch it my self. And you were nice and friendly about it too until he bite your head off.

both SteveS and Sionnach
They say the same thing as everybody else says.They say what I tried to say but do it better.

He put my name in this one again too. I never try to mess with his family or his neighbors or his work peoples. So he must try to lie to his lawyers like does everybody here. He has threaten to harass my family, my neighbors and my employers too. More than not a few times, dozens.

He take another article and make all about him, eh?
tblakely1357
1.3 / 5 (14) Jul 09, 2016
Nothing like statistics pulled out one's nether regions to push an ideology/scam.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Jul 09, 2016
tblakeley, it is pretty hard to ignore pollution which can be measured.

Your supposition fits the second category.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (11) Jul 10, 2016
Gosh, I never thought I had such a n interesting life until I got here. I did not plan it, it just happened as I reacted to where I was at the time
That's the point. Nobody here thinks its interesting but you. Nobody ever wants to discuss it with you. Nobody ever asks you about it. And evidence tells us most is lies and exaggerations. For instance you were tired of people criticizing your lack of education so you apparently went out and bought an MS which didnt require you to learn anything nor did it require an undergrad degree.
Youve been told that time and againIn other fora, we identified ourselves, not just for validation, but out of courtesy as professionals
That's the difference between otto and george. George has given us ample evidence to conclude that he is no professional.

Otto has never claimed to be a professional and only offers opinions on why george acts the way he does by comparing his behavior with learned references.

Which was easy to do.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (10) Jul 10, 2016
All of my business has been by word-of-mouth. All of it
-which is why you resent the advent of HR depts. They actually check on education and experience. They effectively ended your career.
I never advertised or went to a trade show unless I was speaking and paid for it. My reputation makes it possible to do this. When an otto or Ira or Stumpy starts screaming "STOLEN VALOR!" or "LIAR!", it plants seeds of doubt, and threatens my income
-As does your succession of failed jobs, and your postings which reveal an ignorance of rudimentary things, like CFR regs, that any pro should know.

No rational 'professional' would willingly trash his rep on a site such as this.

"He does bizarre and self-destructive things because consequences that would fill the ordinary man with shame, self-loathing, and embarrassment simply do not affect the psychopath at all. What to others would be a disaster is to him merely a fleeting inconvenience."
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jul 10, 2016
Hey, Frumpy, I suggest you stop the false "stolen valor" stuff. I volunteered for that war and served in it. You did not.

Your allegations are simply lies you tell because I pissed you off. Too bad.

Now, stop it. I use my name in my business, and you are threatening my income.

Perhaps you can outgrow your need to punish those who showed you to be a phony hiding in the woods from everybody??

The rest of you go to the military records of mine put online by Grumpy and see my performance reviews. Then tell us who is the liar.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (11) Jul 10, 2016
The sophomoric claims like "Good luck getting more work after this" will help to highlight their malice
Really george do you think that you would lose work for the outrageous crap that you post on a public website under your real name, rather than the exposing of this crap by the good people who post here?

Have you ever taken responsibility for your actions? Have you ever been honest with yourself?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (11) Jul 10, 2016
""Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

-Ever heard that before george?
Hey, Frumpy, I suggest you stop the false "stolen valor" stuff. I volunteered for that war and served in it
It will not ever stop. There have always been good people willing to expose your lies and there always will be.

This is what you resent the most isn't it? Ever since mommy and daddy weren't around to defend their baby boy no matter what-
gkam
1 / 5 (9) Jul 10, 2016
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (15) Jul 10, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR liar-kam
stop the false "stolen valor"
1- it isn't false if it's proven factual - and you supplied your own 214 proving your own lie

2- the legality of your claims disproven by references of the law here: http://phys.org/n...ble.html

3- repeating your lie doesn't make it more true
performance reviews
your reviews are not indicative of merit nor justification for your FALSE VALOR claims

nor have they been validated by secondary sources
Now, stop it
threats and bullying via litigation only indicate your knowledge of your false claims and STOLEN VALOR

last post to you about this:
failure to provide empirical evidence to validate your claim indicates that you lied about "Combat V", which is STOLEN VALOR

i suggest making good on your threat to litigate

PS- your threat to income is due to personal failure
don't blame the public forum for your own stupidity
gkam
1 / 5 (13) Jul 10, 2016
Wow, you have no character at all.

I sent you to the site for the 353'd Special Operations Group , the remains of our group in Igloo White. Did you notice how they kept our BatCat? You saw we how earned the Outstanding Unit Citation "with combat "V" device" twice while I was in the organization. If you do not understand how military awards work, YOU are the liar.

We will stop your hateful disparagement of others.

Did you also disparage the lives of the 22 fellow non-combatants we lost in the war?
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (15) Jul 10, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR liar kam
We will stop your hateful disparagement of others
implied threat

do you have someone in your pocket? LOL

how, exactly, do you propose to stop anyone when you can't even figure out how to read the embedded address in a google maps link?
YOU are the liar
prove it

1- you apparently don't know how the law or military works at all

2- you can't prove i lied - i used your own evidence against your claims, along with military/USAF law
http://phys.org/n...ble.html

3- you have yet to provide validated verifiable evidence supporting your claim, whereas the evidence against you is overwhelming and in accordance with MIL/USAF reg's/AFI's

4- repeating a lie doesn't make it more true

5- threats/bullying with litigation aren't helping nor promoting your own case

feel free to serve me a summons
disparage the lives
you mean like you denigrated all Gulf War (both wars) vets?

i'm not like you
gkam
1 / 5 (12) Jul 10, 2016
My god, can you not see how your out-of-control hate is warping your senses? Get a grip.

Man up, and admit you need another month of Anger Management help. Go see your local Vet Center, for the sake of everyone.
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (15) Jul 10, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR liar-kam

so... you lie about awards (proven - http://phys.org/n...ity.html )

you lie about your engineering ability (proven - http://phys.org/n...age.html]http://phys.org/n...age.html[/url] )

you lie about hearing the Scorpion sink live (proven- http://phys.org/n...ich.html )

you call all Gul War vets mass murderers - (proven- http://phys.org/n...rse.html )

you think overunity is possible - (Proven - http://phys.org/n...age.html]http://phys.org/n...age.html[/url] )

you make unsubstantiated claims and argue from self-percieved authority - (Proven - see any comment thread)

but it is everyone else who has the problem and needs anger mgmnt?
it's everyone else who is trolling because you've been proven a fraud?

how is that logical?
your arguments are circular & nonsensical, so it's moot to continue
still NO evidence from you
...per our agreement...
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jul 10, 2016
We had no agreement. But you do need help. I don't know what happened to you in that Bush War, but you are not in control of your emotions. They have dominated your rationality since I said something to set you off, . . something you intentionally misinterpreted.

Your "allegations" here are just smears, screaming across the playground. You know better, but have to attack because I pissed you off, and you can't take that.

But you have gone way too far, "Stumpy". By hiding from real people in the woods, you have cut yourself off from the Real World. You do not get it in Wiki, Stumpy, you get it by being in it. Your isolation is not helping you.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Jul 10, 2016
Yes, we all noticed tblakely did not present any proof for his abusive assertions.

Actually, we have decades of epidemiological information from which to make conclusions and claims.
tblakely1357
1 / 5 (9) Jul 10, 2016
"tblakeley, it is pretty hard to ignore pollution which can be measured."

Duh, but where are the 'measurements' linking pollution to deaths? Can a coroner examine a dead person and legitimately state 'died from fossil fuels'?

(Well if they died in a gasoline fire maybe, but that isn't what is being claimed is it?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.7 / 5 (14) Jul 10, 2016
And if I do not lock my house, am I responsible when your bratty kid vandalizes it?
This is not YOUR HOUSE. If you leave a lot of your valuables in the middle of the street, don't be surprised if somebody picks them up.
You have apparently never been personally and professionally attacked in public
-So this sort of thing has happened to you before? Big surprise.

Georges egomania shines through:
Steve, I have recently been asked to participate in a very large operation, in which I would be the main part
Well he would have to be the main part wouldn't he? George thinks he is the main part of every thread on this site.
dogbert
1.3 / 5 (15) Jul 10, 2016
Lung-penetrating dust from coal-fired power plants in the European Union claims some 23,000 lives a year and racks up tens of billions of euros in health costs, an NGO report said Tuesday.


The study was compiled by researchers from four green energy lobby groups: the Health and Environment Alliance, the WWF, Climate Action Network Europe and Sandbag.


Since no one else seems to want to mention it, I will. The figure of 23000 deaths per year is just made up, guesstimated. The 12000 cases of chronic bronchitis and the half million asthma attacks attributed to coal is similarly made up.

Yes, coal is a dirty form of energy. There are problems with it. But the medical claims in this report are not scientific claims, they are propaganda.
LifeBasedLogic
Jul 10, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
dogbert
1 / 5 (10) Jul 10, 2016
LifeBasedLogic,

Be a Vegan if you wish. But you should understand that animal protein is high quality protein (and it tastes good). Nothing wrong with consuming what is available.

It will not kill millions of people if you eat a chicken.
eachus
5 / 5 (8) Jul 10, 2016
One of those pieces of research which don't get much coverage: Some of the gas from fracking is recent. More to the point the water forced down the wells reacted with coal or unrecoverable heavy oil to form methane plus CO2. (Years ago many areas used "coal gas" formed by reacting coal with water at high temperature to form hydrogen plus carbon monoxide. Apparently under pressure the reaction continues to form methane and CO2 completely consuming the water.

What does this mean? We should act now to keep as much coal in situ where it can be formed into clean gas for co-generation plants. (Co-generation gas plants reach about 60% efficiency, while coal plants effectively top out at around 28%. So even if 1/3 of the energy potential of the coal in the ground is lost forming methane, you still get more electricity. Of course, the environmental costs both before and after burning the coal make that a non-issue.)
unrealone1
1.7 / 5 (12) Jul 11, 2016
40,000 people die from the cold in the winter in the UK...because of energy poverty..
SteveS
4.6 / 5 (10) Jul 11, 2016
40,000 people die from the cold in the winter in the UK...because of energy poverty..


unrealone1 See: -

Figure 1: Number of excess winter deaths and five-year central moving average, England and Wales, 1950/51–2014/15

on this page

http://www.ons.go...314final

So what was your point?
WillieWard
1.4 / 5 (11) Jul 11, 2016
40,000 people die from the cold in the winter in the UK...because of energy poverty..
If renewable were so good, poor people would already be using solar cookers to warm their houses during the winter.
https://en.wikipe...r_cooker
Fortunately, for example, nuclear power provides cheap energy to Russian poor children and their families to keep them warmed during the winter, a thing that would be impracticable only with eco-friendly landscape-destroyers when sun is not shinning or wind is not blowing.
ChiefFartingDog
Jul 11, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
antiantigoracle
Jul 11, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
HeloMenelo
3.6 / 5 (14) Jul 11, 2016
a a aaaa.. monkey does bannanas only, monkey goracle knows lots about the insects as he swings the trees all day long, can't get rid of those pesky tics crawling up his nostrals and armpits.... and the stinky flies:

https://cdn.drawc...p-10.png
HeloMenelo
3.7 / 5 (9) Jul 11, 2016
Antiantigoracle 100% to you, the comments i made is for antigoracle.....man you should change that name i'm giving 1s to the wrong goracle
Uncle Ira
4.3 / 5 (12) Jul 11, 2016
Millions of people and billions of animals die year so people can eat flesh for no valid reason and most you don't care about that at all and there is no propaganda in that at all.


So what?

Oh yeah, I almost forget. David-Skippy, you finally get one right,,,, I really "don't care about that at all" and "there is non propaganda in that", I really don't.
antiantigoracle
Jul 11, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
antigoracle
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 11, 2016
HeloMenelo 5 / 5 (2) 6 hours ago
Antiantigoracle 100% to you, the comments i made is for antigoracle.....man you should change that name i'm giving 1s to the wrong goracle


I kind of like it; it must drive antisciencegorilla nuts. But, if I were to do, I don't think the functionality on the user control panel works right. I've changed to actual name from nickname before, it updates, but nothing changes. The functionality here is generally pretty crappy. Logging in has a hard coded re-direct to the home page. You can't change a rating. FB and G+ tokens often don't work. Quality isn't job #1.

LOL.
Retards astonished by their condition.
Pumastar
4.6 / 5 (9) Jul 13, 2016
Nope astonished by your monkey brained comments, everytime :D
HeloMenelo
4.1 / 5 (9) Jul 13, 2016
Indeed Puma, well said :D
CockyChocachubra
Jul 13, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
WillieWard
1 / 5 (1) Jul 14, 2016
..waste land caused by the nasty hydro plants..
"Flooding land for a hydroelectric reservoir has an extreme environmental impact: it destroys forest, wildlife habitat, agricultural land, and scenic lands."
"After the area is flooded, the vegetation and soil in these areas decomposes and releases both carbon dioxide and methane."
www.ucsusa.org/cl...wer.html
WillieWard
1 / 5 (1) Jul 15, 2016
- as is wind and solar.
Almost all mining activities bring to surface some naturally-occurring radioactive elements, wind and solar is not an exception to the rule, but pseudo-environmentalists are very hypocrites to recognize it because they ever apply two sets of standards; also they believe all wind/solar components are being recycled in some magical place 100% powered by unicorn fart energy.
http://institutef...inerals/
gkam
1 / 5 (7) Jul 15, 2016
" Hydro is on the lower end of the scale"
------------------------

For once, I have to disagree. The damage done by dams to the environment is significant and they are now recognized as a mistake in many places. The cost in losing farmland or pasture or open space is higher than we expected. The loss of river life is serious, and is why we are taking them down.
WillieWard
1 / 5 (1) Jul 15, 2016
The damage done by dams to the environment is significant and they are now recognized as a mistake in many places. The cost in losing farmland or pasture or open space is higher than we expected. The loss of river life is serious, and is why we are taking them down.
"And despite the large growth in wind and solar in the last five years, over 67% of renewable electricity is still conventional hydroelectric and biomass, which many environmental groups oppose."
http://thebreakth...s/7.jpeg
http://thebreakth...ance.pdf
WillieWard
1 / 5 (1) Jul 15, 2016
..is going pedal to the metal into solar..
It will be probably mostly based on solar farms instead of rooftop PV; and pseudo-environmentalists claim it takes zero-land and does not ruin natural landscapes nor requires fossil fuels to compensate intermittency.
http://lh6.ggpht....gmax=800
http://lh5.ggpht....gmax=800
http://lh5.ggpht....gmax=800
http://lh6.ggpht....gmax=800
http://lh5.ggpht....gmax=800
"desert land is special, and must also be protected"
https://pbs.twimg...pg:large
WillieWard
1 / 5 (1) Jul 16, 2016
just ignores a couple of big issues
..pseudo-environmentalists .. believe all wind/solar components are being recycled in some magical place 100% powered by unicorn fart energy.

https://si.wsj.ne...3234.jpg
https://cnet3.cbs...1432.JPG
http://media.mnn....ions.jpg
http://www.euanme...-007.jpg
http://www.worldc...amp;q=90
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/8/2/1343912164938/rare-earth-china-008.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=01b3a510d9a151b8ab49cc2ed1b255a2
gkam
1 / 5 (7) Jul 16, 2016
Willie can put his money where his mouth is and buy one of those nuke plants they are trying to get bigger subsidies for.

I do not need that grossly-expensive and dangerous source of power, I make most of my own.

No nasty waste from my generation. How about Willie's?
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Jul 16, 2016
I make most of my own
@STOLEN VALOR liar kam
no, you don't
you sell it to the power company and still buy your own power from them, which is likely produced in a non-green fashion (like coal, gas, etc)

unless you can *prove* otherwise with links and references to their power production that demonstrates all your energy is green, that is
No nasty waste from my generation
except manufacturing costs, mining for materials, etc, right?

and that is only talking about your solar energy production
for the power co, see above

repeating a lie doesn't make it more true
I do not need that grossly-expensive and dangerous source of power
your panels can't support the household use and you don't have batteries to store it anyway (per your own claims)
therefore you *do* require it because you're tied to the grid

quit spreading lies about solar and it's abilities

solar can't run that A/C unit you have on your house
before you say you don't -see google maps
gkam
1 / 5 (7) Jul 16, 2016
Frumpy has to try to find something he can oppose. How does one get to that stage of disfunction?

Nobody in the entire neighborhood has an A/C on the house. The ones who have them put them on the ground beside the house where they are not visible to Google. Where is mine? My wife will be glad to see we have one after all, and did not know it.

BTW, our PVs went up in February, but the last Google photo of our house is from October. So you can't see them yet. Hold your breath and wait.

Still holding?

I can understand how you folk in less-demanding jobs are ignorant of science, but you should not advertise it.

I'll let you know when the new photo is up, so you can invent some other alleged charge. Meanwhile, get help for your emotional problems.
gkam
1 / 5 (7) Jul 16, 2016
I tried to get into this program, but it is limited to San Jose.

http://www.utilit.../422484/

Keep your eyes on it: It is the future.

Right now, I produce solar power for the house, get credit for the excess generation during the day, and take it out at night. That seems to confuse some folk who do not understand banks.
Captain Stumpy
3.9 / 5 (7) Jul 16, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR liar-kam
has to try to find something he can oppose
nope.
I am just a whole lot more informed as to the ability and use of solar than you are
i don't have a grid to rely upon like you... and i don't need to lie about it's limitations either

fact is something that can be validated
and you can't produce evidence of most of what you state, making it opinion
The ones who have them put them on the ground beside the house where they are not visible to Google
1- they are visible in most of the houses i saw

2- already sent you the map, pic and location of your own A/C, which is clearly visible
- you just ignored it and started claiming you didn't have A/C

otto and Ira validated it by looking where i pointed it out

so repeating the lie isn't going to make it more true for you
is from October
Google says 2016- that means you lied again
I tried to get into
who cares?
your history of lies means you are likely still lying

/b/ro RULE 37
Captain Stumpy
3.9 / 5 (7) Jul 16, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR liar-kam cont'd
and take it out at night
unless you have batteries to store this "from the bank" then it means you get your electricity from the grid

that may be confusing to you idiots who know nothing about solar power and how it's generated, stored and used...
That seems to confuse some folk who do not understand banks
1- you don't have a bank which stores the energy

2- you don't draw DC from the grid at night, which is what solar generates

3- you already said you don't have batteries, so you are drawing from the *grid*, not from a
bank" where power is stored

4- you are talking out your *ss because you don't know sh*t
evidence: https://www.amazo...16571068

books updated frequently with the latest info, plus free help on the website

they're local to you - try talking to them
I did

until you learn about solar, you should STFU because you are making invalid claims
gkam
1 / 5 (7) Jul 16, 2016
I have to go now, but have to take the time to say to Rumpy:

My god, you are not only nasty, you are dense.

I generate AC. I "store" it in the grid, . . yes I know it is a complicated thought, but bear with us. It is like a paycheck automatically going into the bank, then us taking our money out as we need it. Sooner or later we may all use banks - what a concept!.

Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Jul 16, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR liar-kam
you are dense
i am not the one making claims that are easily refuted by the evidence

you are!

lets prove it... you say
I generate AC
no, you don't
the solar panels generate DC, and you MUST have an inverter to convert it to AC
http://www.nwwind...-energy/

this is easier for you to read, & simpler: http://www.solard...current/

an engineer should know that one
I "store" it in the grid
No, you "sell" it to the grid for *them* to use or store... big difference, you idiot!

An "engineer" who worked for a power company should know that one too!

learn how it works before you shoot your own mouth off more, because your incessant lies are confusing to people
http://science.ho...rage.htm

epic fail from a lying POS
FOAD
gkam
1 / 5 (7) Jul 16, 2016
"No, you "sell" it to the grid for *them* to use or store... big difference, you idiot!"
--------------------------------

No, I do not. Once again, you by-standers do not understand the technology and operations of us professionals. It is NOT sold, it is accounted for, and at the end of the year we have an accounting of input and usage. You are confused because you are ignorant of the PG&E EV-A rate schedule, and how utilities operate.

And I produce 60 Hz AC from my system. You sideliners are really funny the way you read something and not understand it, but parrot your "beliefs" anyway, based on faulty assumptions, from ignorance of the science behind it.

Like I said, Wiki only brings out the fools who cannot put any of it in perspective necessary for understanding.
gkam
1 / 5 (7) Jul 16, 2016
Maybe if I explain how the different business cases work, you may get a feeling for how things are integrated into the systems. The guy across the street sells his power to the utility, and pays the panel owners a reduced price for his power. He does not own the system. Any overage generated gets something like 4 cents/kWh credit.

My next-door neighbor owns his panels and has the same deal with credits and usage as I do, but fewer panels (eleven), and is not on the stringent TOU schedule we have with the EV.

You folk are just guessing, and taking shots at those who correct you. But it is the venom which is worrisome, and indicative of your mental state.
gkam
1 / 5 (7) Jul 16, 2016
One more: My daughter owns many panels producing more power than they use and sells the overage to PG&E. There are lots of ways to do it. Come out of the woods and Wiki and see the Real World.

I'll show it to you myself.

But I have to admit it was fun to see you thrashing around in nasty phrases showing us your limited knowledge.
Captain Stumpy
3.9 / 5 (7) Jul 16, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR liar-kam
No, I do not
yes, you do
I provided the evidence proving you do, you idiot
all you can do is make a claim, which has your "authority", and considering you've not been able to substantiate any claim you made here, that is less than crap
Wiki only brings out
not one wiki link
all my links can be validated and are from professionals in the field, not liars like you
you by-standers do not understand
apparently you don't either
problem is: i live on solar... you do not
you know i have panels, because you have a pic of them next to my house... and there is no grid to save my *ss when the batteries crap out

you get your energy from the grid, period
you only sell surplus to the grid from the panels, no matter how you try to dress it up for us

more to the point:
you *can't prove* anything i said is wrong
nor that what you said is more correct

no evidence means you lie
repeating the lie don't make it more true
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 16, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR liar-kam
And I produce 60 Hz AC from my system
but you said your colar panels did it, so this is an epic lie yet again
solar panels produce DC, and you *must* have an inverter to change it to AC in your system
*as noted by me above* you idiot
http://www.sunfor...city.pdf

http://www.wholes...r-panels

that evidence alone proves you're not an engineer and especially not versed in power, supply or environmental anything
hell, my DOG can google and find the fact that solar is DC, not AC, you idiot!
ROTFLMFAO
Maybe if I explain
so far, your "explanations" have mostly been lies
i can prove that

even your "engineering" ability can't be proven... DaSchneib proved you a liar about that!
See: http://phys.org/n...age.html

gkam
1 / 5 (7) Jul 16, 2016
My solar system produces AC, fool. It comes with an inverter. More assumptions to bite you in the face.

I know it is hard for you to understand net metering with annual accounting, but try. I do not sell anything to pg&e, we trade straight across. The power I produce is more valuable than the power I use by time of use, but that is okay with me. I also pay a fee for use of the distribution system.

Because of Summer, we have generated all of our power and banked about 80kWh. We will draw them down this Winter and start paying, but will never get out of the lowest payment level.

Why is banking so hard for you to understand?
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Jul 16, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR liar-kam
My daughter owns many panels producing more power than they use and sells the overage to PG&E
1- your daughter isn't YOU
2- this must be where you got your "panel" pic from because Google says you lie about the roof panels you claim to have, just like the CA DMV who says you don't have an e-golf

evidence
it proves you wrong almost every time you make a claim
Come out of the woods
come into the woods to see what a real panel set up looks like
not the make-believe lie that you spread
I'll show it to you myself
google says: you lie
so you would be showing me your daughters house?

CA and google proved you a blatant liar
you can't even validate the basics of solar, which is easily researched!
LMFAO
epic failure on your part!

.

I have to admit it was fun to see you thrashing around in nasty phrases showing us your limited knowledge and your chronic lies about engineering, power, solar and your EV
gkam
1.5 / 5 (8) Jul 16, 2016
Okay, give me your name and address. I'll come by and you can show me your system.

No more lying about sending me your name and address, because you have not.

Send it, and let's get this over.

Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Jul 16, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR liar-kam
we trade straight across
no, you don't
you sell your power at wholesale prices for the time period it's made, which has the potential for being more valuable than power off-peak but still isn't a straight across trade, you lying POS

& as noted by every source on solar power, you do NOT generate AC with solar without an inverter,

NOR do you sell at peak rate as that would not allow the company to make a profit

Business 101- you don't make a profit, you don't stay in business very long
and your PG&E is not a 501(c)3, you f*cking moron!
ROTFLMFAO
http://www.wholes...ormation

http://www.solarp...he-grid/

just because you think you're special doesn't mean you are

and those links just proved you are a liar
again

Why is banking so hard for you to understand?
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 16, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR liar-kam
Okay, give me your name and address. I'll come by and you can show me your system.
you idiot
you've asked me that several times, and i've sent you it at least 5 times
name, address, and a f*cking MAP to the house!

how stupid are you?

or is this just your way of lying while trying to play victim?
No more lying about sending me your name and address, because you have not.
file a court order then, because I can prove, with copies of e-mails, that i've sent you this information 5 times minimum

and recently, too, you idiot
Send it, and let's get this over.
read the f*cking map i sent you
it has instructions to get to my house with the embedded link

are you really that stupid?
you can't read a google map with directions?
sheesh!

no wonder you like to lie about your service and being an engineer

gkam
1.5 / 5 (8) Jul 16, 2016
Send it.

Your "knowledge" of utility processes is by guess and a misunderstanding of what you read in Wiki. This is not Business 101, it is graduate school and professional power control.

Send the information you promised. Name and address.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (4) Jul 16, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR liar-kam
Send it.
i did
Your "knowledge" of utility processes is by guess and a misunderstanding of what you read in Wiki
1- my knowledge is from experience from living off-grid for 20 years

2- my links are not wiki

3- any link that can be validated is a far cry better than your erroneous comments that have been refuted by real engineers in real jobs posting real information about real engineering stuff

4- i have evidence and links- you have talk and bullsh*t claims
who do you think people are going to believe?
the idiot who says he's an engineer while failing to prove it?
or me, giving links to validate the claims that state you're a liar?
LMFAO
Send the information you promised. Name and address.
i did
you still can't read?

what happened... didn't your education teach you how to read?
or was that just a parenting fail?
gkam
1.5 / 5 (8) Jul 16, 2016
Never mind. Stay hiding from the world in your little woods.

But stop slandering the rest of us because of your own mental problems.

You fear I really will send your epistles and posts to the VA folk in your area.

And you are correct. It is for the good of all of us.
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 16, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR liar-kam
Never mind
so does that mean your parents failed you and you never learned to read?

or are you just stupid?
But stop slandering the rest of us because of your own mental problems
1- it's not slander, you moron

2- it's not libel if i can prove it with evidence
of course i can prove this which is why you still can't get a lawyer to sue me for libel like you want to and like you keep threatening to do
You fear
1- i fear nothing, especially not you

2- you couldn't find my address with an embedded link, what makes you think you can find the VA in my area?
ROTFLMFAO
that was funny, though... thanks for the laugh!
And you are correct
i know it. i am correct about proving you a liar, proving your stolen valor, and proving you don't know sh*t about solar and energy

Just like DaSchneib proved you weren't an engineer (link above)

you want to be a big man... feel free to come visit
but i warn you - don't try your sh*t here

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