Research shows belief in supernatural punishment, rather than 'big gods' of religion gave rise to complex societies

society
Credit: George Hodan/public domain

(Phys.org)—A team of researchers with ties to several different institutions in Australia has published a paper in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B refuting claims made by other researchers that the advent of "big gods" characteristic of such religions as Islam and Christianity, were one of the driving forces that led to large civilized societies. In their study, they found that instead, it appears a stronger force was more likely fear of supernatural punishment for those still living.

To better understand how we humans managed to wind up living in civilized communities, the researchers studied 96 Asian Pacific cultures and combined what they found with data from models that attempt to replicate evolutionary biology. Their research, they say, indicates that "big gods" was not a factor in humans building large societies that took advantage of cooperation. The most damming detail, they note, is the fact that religions that have "big gods" did not come into existence until after large human communities had already developed. Instead, they suggest it appears much more likely that it was influence from supernatural beliefs, such as fear that not doing as requested, would result in crop failures or locust invasions, that led to large cooperatives that allowed villages to grow to towns and cities.

The team came to this conclusion by gathering ethnographic information from a variety of sources—the data they collected was based on cultural units and was coded by political degree and degree of Moralizing High Gods (MHG) found in early literature. The data was then analyzed using a variety of sampling and phylogenetic methods. They report that they found 22 instances of high political complexity in the area over the time under study despite a low degree of MHG and instead of prompting the development of political complexity, they found that it instead followed its development. They report also that they found instances of belief in supernatural punishment driving political complexity to be much more common. It appeared to both suppress selfishness and promote cooperation.

Despite their findings, the team suggests that more work needs to be done—the mechanism that drove supernatural beliefs, for example is not well understood, though it was clearly used as a tool by some to manipulate others into cooperating, a necessary factor for the continued existence and growth of communities.


Explore further

Societies living in harsh environments more likely to believe in moralizing gods, study finds

More information: Broad supernatural punishment but not moralizing high gods precede the evolution of political complexity in Austronesia, Proceedings of the Royal Society B, DOI: 10.1098/rspb.2014.2556

Abstract
Supernatural belief presents an explanatory challenge to evolutionary theorists—it is both costly and prevalent. One influential functional explanation claims that the imagined threat of supernatural punishment can suppress selfishness and enhance cooperation. Specifically, morally concerned supreme deities or 'moralizing high gods' have been argued to reduce free-riding in large social groups, enabling believers to build the kind of complex societies that define modern humanity. Previous cross-cultural studies claiming to support the MHG hypothesis rely on correlational analyses only and do not correct for the statistical non-independence of sampled cultures. Here we use a Bayesian phylogenetic approach with a sample of 96 Austronesian cultures to test the MHG hypothesis as well as an alternative supernatural punishment hypothesis that allows punishment by a broad range of moralizing agents. We find evidence that broad supernatural punishment drives political complexity, whereas MHGs follow political complexity. We suggest that the concept of MHGs diffused as part of a suite of traits arising from cultural exchange between complex societies. Our results show the power of phylogenetic methods to address long-standing debates about the origins and functions of religion in human society.

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Mar 04, 2015
Ahhh... The overwhelming power of fear...

You realize, of course, that this article is bound to bring out the loudest of religionists...
(and Otto...)


Mar 04, 2015
Not explored (for good reason) is whether those supernatural beliefs might actually correspond to an (as yet) not understand mechanism for actually punishing selfishness. Let's say such a mechanism exists. If so, any society that discovered it would reap the benefits.

Now even suggesting there is something other than the material world is, of course, anathema on this forum, perhaps not so much among quantum physicists as other scientists.

Mar 04, 2015
human laws are not perfect as God's laws
@ren
except that your sky faerie laws are not perfect
IF you had an omniscient/omnipotent faerie, then a "law" would be inviolable and thus no matter how much free will given, it would not be capable of violating said law

Now, considering you repeatedly violate your own faeries law's (the ten published in your own book, supposedly carved into stone by the faerie himself) then we have irrefutable proof that your faeries laws are NOT PERFECT

now take into account that you say
human laws are not perfect as God's laws and lead to injustice
but you also said human laws are based upon his laws... which then only proves how fallible your faerie is and how invalid your own religion is

WHOOPSIE
your creationist/7th day adventist stupidity is outed for the gibberish that it is
https://www.youtu...jWkVKyRo

Mar 04, 2015
If people are not afraid of God will afraid of human laws. But human laws are not perfect as God's laws and lead to injustice, misery and degradation because they are not in harmony with the divine principles on whose base is built universe.

Let's just call it a learning curve. Fear of and blind acceptance of, an almighty being is no longer necessary.
We are growing up. You just don't see that, yet..
Maybe - you are afraid to...

Mar 04, 2015
one other point i would like to make, @renTROLL
you said
human laws are not perfect as God's laws and lead to injustice, misery and degradation because they are not in harmony with the divine principles on whose base is built universe
but i can DEBUNK your comment with your own book of stupidity

read here: JER 31:28 - 31:37
Per this one section of your own "supposedly" infallible source book, from your own "supposedly" infallible sky faerie, there is the statement of the second covenant, which is "supposed" to be in effect today with you stupid x-tians...

that is that he already wrote these infallible laws on ALL hearts, thus there should be NO law violations given the perfect nature of your faerie

Given that statement, the proof of sociopathic serial killers, and that you stupid x-tians cannot even follow the ten commandments... that is in itself evidence that your faerie doesn't exist per your delusional belief

EPIC FAIL for religion
AGAIN

Mar 04, 2015
Ren, please remember to cite which of the innumerable god or gods you are referencing when speaking of mythology.
@Foolspoo
ren is the worst kind of christian... that group of wanna be scientists calling themselves creationists while ignoring all science that doesn't jibe with their holy comic relic (which means all science)

Worst yet, they don't even realise that their own "movement" is nothing more than the "christian debunked rantings" of the former 7th day adventist prophetess who was considered a crackpot by almost ALL christians... till the creationist movement stole their ideas and renamed them so that suckers could be CONNED

see this from Myers, it is revealing
https://www.youtu...jWkVKyRo

you will get a good laugh too!

if they weren't so politically active, it would almost be too pathetic...
but in the USA, they have political clout because of the conspiratorial nature of most scientifically illiterate & religious people

Mar 04, 2015
It is not very clear why call me creationist
@ren
because your historical diatribe against science and proven experiments as well as known data and evidence shows that you follow the creationist belief system

Your arguments against evolution as well as most other science is almost verbatim from their pamphlets or various sites

When you and i first started conversing and you were ignoring ALL scientific studies, references and knowledge, i plugged in your words to Google
guess what?
they came back as "creationist" arguments

they were almost verbatim to the arguments found against science and already DEBUNKED here: http://www.talkor...ist.html

therefore, you are a creationist/7th day adventist without the scientific acumen or even literacy needed to advance your own knowledge into the 20th or 21st century

cont'd

Mar 04, 2015
Human laws are based on the ten commandments
cont'd @ren
and as i pointed out, considering you claim an omniscient/omnipotent sky faerie, then those ten commandments/laws should be inviolable
they aren't
you have violated them regularly here on PO alone
Parade of vanity and desperate thoughtlessness
the very definition of religious leadership
Read the history to find out the future
those are WISE WORDS indeed...
my point is: your relic comic is NOT history
it is NOT validated or even proven to be historically SEMI-accurate

as Otto has pointed out numerous times, your historical comic is proven false over and over, with NO empirical evidence supporting it, even from the HISTORICAL standpoint

therefore, it is an epic failure

the only way you can believe it is valid or even relevant is to suspend logic, science, evidence or common sense and accept it on FAITH

it is designed to codify rules to CONTROL people
that is IT

Mar 04, 2015
@ren
and last point... even in your own book, as i posted above... your sky faerie says that your continual evangelical posts are nothing more than WRONG

you should read your own book more often


Mar 04, 2015
@CaptainStumpy

Human laws are based on the ten commandments,

Sorry, Ren. But, the 10 commandments ARE human laws... The only way to get people to follow them was to scare the bejeezus out o' them with a terrible, powerful and vengeful god as their source...
If GOD was to write a book, he wouldn't need a pseudonym...
(wouldn't need a book, for that matter...)

Mar 04, 2015
@ren
and last point... even in your own book, as i posted above... your sky faerie says that your continual evangelical posts are nothing more than WRONG

you should read your own book more often

And, Cap'n...
If you wouldn't mind - my great-grandparents, grandparents and parents were 7th day. They weren't bad people - just uninformed. They were too busy surviving (all farmers) to learn the esoterics of science...
Thanks...:-)

Mar 04, 2015
And, Cap'n...
If you wouldn't mind - my great-grandparents, grandparents and parents were 7th day. They weren't bad people - just uninformed. They were too busy surviving (all farmers) to learn the esoterics of science...
Thanks...:-)
@Wyde
actually, that is my point... they were uninformed

i didn't mean to denigrate your family
you did tell me that you grew up 7th day

as a person or people, your family simply fell under the spell of religion
and that is what i dislike (not the family, but RELIGION)

like you said:
the 10 commandments ARE human laws... The only way to get people to follow them was to scare the bejeezus out o' them with a terrible, powerful and vengeful god as their source...
If GOD was to write a book, he wouldn't need a pseudonym...
(wouldn't need a book, for that matter...)

This is very cogent as well as very telling with regard to the divisiveness of religions

Mar 04, 2015
just uninformed
@Wyde
almost forgot... watch this video: https://www.youtu...jWkVKyRo

one point he drives home that is very relevant about religion (and specifically about 7th day and creationists) is that even back in the day, back when religion had a much stronger grasp upon the populace of the US, even during those days, the 7th day adventist prophetess and her right hand man were scorned by almost every other christian religion (if not every other)

Now, i am not slamming anyone here except the creationists:
Why?
They took the ideas and rantings of a known madman, wiped his own name off of the ideas and theories and then pushed it as their own

Then they adopted the term "science" but as i pointed out, even the court system could see there is no science in "Creation science"
they did this in the hopes no one would notice the plagiarism

IOW- the foundation of "creationists" is plagiarized from the mad rantings of a specific pair of nutters

Mar 04, 2015
Religion, where the few, dominate and control the many, by exploiting their ignorance. It is perhaps man's most ingenious invention and absolutely his most insidious.

It appeared to both suppress selfishness and promote cooperation

Such behavior is abundant in the animal kingdom, so I must wonder what their gods look like.

Mar 04, 2015
Such behavior is abundant in the animal kingdom, so I must wonder what their gods look like
@antiG
very good point, thanks for pointing that out

could the fear be more heavily based upon peer pressure, being ostracized or even driven by the survival instinct more-so than the religious fear or pressures?

even today many people "belong" to a church and are not religious at all to build a reputation or an image that makes it easier to get ahead in the business world/job market... it is a tool for networking (and has been for eons)

so perhaps the "suppress selfishness and promote cooperation" comes more from the natural social metric of our species combined with survival, etc than supernatural fears?

Is the supernatural fear an emergent trait stemming from our desire to find patterns in things, whether they're there or not?

the ability to recognize patterns is certainly the reason we have science

Mar 04, 2015
Religion, where the few, dominate and control the many, by exploiting their ignorance. It is perhaps man's most ingenious invention and absolutely his most insidious.

It appeared to both suppress selfishness and promote cooperation

Such behavior is abundant in the animal kingdom, so I must wonder what their gods look like.

For dogs - they look like - us...

Mar 04, 2015
@CaptainStumpy
Re your last post.

In the early '60s an uncle bragged to me how he selected a church when he had been transferred as an insurance executive to Dallas. He drove around until he found the church parking lot with the most Lincolns and Cadillacs. And he wasn't the least bit religious.

Mar 05, 2015
It seems that the proponents of evolutionary myth avoid hard to answer the question what is the fundamental condition which must be met to permit evolutionary process under ideal other conditions? The answer is easy but is for honest and resourceful people. Without answer to this question the proponents of evolutionary myth are exercising in pointless rhetoric.

Mar 05, 2015
I have been toying with a hypothesis for a while now. Basically it says that social animals, including humans, behave differently when in the presence of members of their group. Leaders of early human groups noticed this and it caused them all sorts of headaches for maintaining order. Eventually, some ingenious chap realized that if they made up an invisible guy who can see them even when no one else is around, that could rather easily leverage that guilty feeling to help curtail 'anti-social' behaviors. Thus, god was invented and supported by the group. This study helps to support how that evolves, in order to clarify what the punishment would be for being caught. Obviously, people noticed that there were no actual earthly consequences, so they invented this idea of punishing a person after death, because obviously nobody would really know. Bam. Religion.

Mar 05, 2015
It seems that the proponents of evolutionary myth avoid hard to answer the question what is the fundamental condition which must be met to permit evolutionary process under ideal other conditions? The answer is easy but is for honest and resourceful people. Without answer to this question the proponents of evolutionary myth are exercising in pointless rhetoric.

Bullshit. You have been answered multiple times. You just dismiss it without reading it because you think your god has told you everything in "his book which is directly from him himself.
What evidence would be required for you to support evolution?
Let me answer that for you. No amount of evidence short of your god descending
From the sky and saying it? Even then you'd probably chalk it up as a scam by Satan and "the antichrist" testing your faith.

Mar 05, 2015
What a bunch of retards. Who thinks this shit up. I wonder what keeps monkey societies from descending into chaos. Hint: it's biologically based and not belief based.

There was someone a long time ago who preached about this, something about survival about something. Who knows. Maybe it's because they are afraid of the after life. That's probably why species propagate, ours included.

Mar 05, 2015
Religion, the greatest invention ever made. It provides vast power merely for the promise of reward or punishment after death. It's perfect.

Mar 05, 2015
@darky

I do not remember any of the proponents of evolution to have answered the question what is the main fundamental condition than ca allow evolutionary process if exist appropriate physical laws of course. But if you know the answer make it available to them. Diference between as is that I believe in almighty Creator which created being with intelect, design and purpose and you beliave in the god of lucky chance that without intent and purpose creates highly organized intelligent systems, although current laws of physics work in the opposite direction - from more complex to more simple and more complex being create more simple being. The opposite is not possible in this universe.

Mar 05, 2015
I do not remember any of the proponents of evolution to have answered the question what is the main fundamental condition than ca allow evolutionary process if exist appropriate physical laws of course. But if you know the answer make it available to them.

See the recent Phys.org article on research done by NASA scientists.
Diference between as is that I believe in almighty Creator which created being with intelect, design and purpose and you beliave in the god of lucky chance

There is no "chance", just 1+1= "a new 1"
that without intent and purpose creates highly organized intelligent systems, although current laws of physics work in the opposite direction - from more complex to more simple and more complex being create more simple being. The opposite is not possible in this universe.

Current purpose of physics is to make complex more simply understandable - things still start simple and BECOME complex... Do not confuse the laws with the object.

Mar 05, 2015
Religion, the greatest invention ever made. It provides vast power merely for the promise of reward or punishment after death. It's perfect.

I'm still goin' with the wheel.
Religion isn't an invention - it's a lie.
Funny how... NOT lying is one of religion's basic tenets...

Mar 05, 2015
Funny how... NOT lying is one of religion's basic tenets...
@Whyde
they don't like the competition

I do not remember any of the proponents of evolution to have answered...
@viko
if you would go back through your own posting history you will find that your question has not only been answered, but it has been answered more than 20 times (i didn't take time to go thru your ENITRE history, just a tiny bit...)

the problem is that you are looking with your religious goggles
you don't know that YOUR religion is the only RIGHT one
you cannot say with any certainty that your religion is correct, especially as all modern religions are simply plagiarized from other religions, xtians being the worst of the lot

lastly, science is about being able to prove something with some certainty (hence the scientific method which uses experimentation which can be repeated & validated)


Mar 06, 2015
@greenonions

This God, whose Son went among the people and talking to them as equals to teach them how to live in harmony and love with each other and how to build fairly and developed society. Who heals souls and bodies of people. This God who allowed it Son to be crucified on the cross, despite his holiness to atone for man's sins and to give to the people the opportunity for salvation. Who gave prophecies that have come true and the last one which is in progress. This God who promises that for every faithful christian in the kongdom of God there is home for ever inviolable use and tremendous opportunities for personal development and exploration of the secrets of the universe. I do not care for other fictional gods.

By the way how do you explain the fact that there are intelligent human beings in the universe, but there is no higher and more intelligent being - the Creator, after denying his existance?

Mar 06, 2015
This God, whose Son went among the people
@viko
your "bible" was foind to be not only inaccurate, but blatantly false
there is no evidence that anything in your book is validated by any reputable science
I do not care for other fictional gods
but THEY care about YOU
you have no proof that your faerie is any more valid than the belief of "unicorns"
By the way how do you explain the fact that there are intelligent human beings in the universe
Evolution explains it quite nicely as well as proves it with scientific evidence AND observation (from Lenski to Dr. Extavour) http://www.talkor...303.html http://brainmuseu...olution/
but there is no higher and more intelligent being
personal conjecture based upon a delusional belief in an invisible sky faerie with supposed omnipotent/omniscient power that is proven to have neither with the use of your own book

sorry
epic fail for religion and you


Mar 06, 2015
The data was then analyzed using a variety of sampling and phylogenetic methods. They report that they found 22 instances of high political complexity in the area over the time under study despite a low degree of MHG and instead of prompting the development of political complexity, they found that it instead followed its development.

Makes sense. After all, for what do you need MHGs? A group of people can be led by the strongest or wisest. But they invraiably want their offspring to lead again (who are likely not the strongest/wisest as they have grown up in a less competitive environment).
So you need an excuse to put someone on the throne/in high office. And what better (or what other!) way than to derive that from a nebulous/inscrutable 'god'?

Mar 06, 2015
Correlation is not causation. Drive forces needs longtime studies to test, and ethnography isn't known to be as meticulous as anthropology in these regards. (Interestingly, the article describes such a longtime study to distinguish causation from correlation: "They report that they found 22 instances of high political complexity in the area over the time under study despite a low degree of MHG and instead of prompting the development of political complexity, they found that it instead followed its development.")

Communities are much older than our written evidence of religious thinking, so this is overstating evidence. But this looks nice FWIW:

"Our results show the power of phylogenetic methods to address long-standing debates about the origins and functions of religion in human society."

Mar 06, 2015
Since this article research how religion affect society, as well as ***add another successful test of evolution***, I'll allow creationist questions. But I note that none discuss the science of the article, as expected.

@ren: "It is not very clear why call me creationist when you can call me with the real name christian."

That sect is a subset of creationism, and its effect on society including education is to try to promote erroneous creationist magic ideas and attack science facts. There are magic thinking that is not as socially problematic, say janinism.

It is therefore convenient to lump these anti-science/anti-society ideas together.

[cont]

Mar 06, 2015
[cont]

@viko: "I do not remember any of the proponents of evolution to have answered the question what is the main fundamental condition than ca allow evolutionary process if exist appropriate physical laws of course."

Bullshit.

This is done in early school on. Say, the first sentence in Wikipedia: "Evolution, also known as descent with modification, is the change in heritable phenotype traits of biological populations over successive generations.[1]" [ http://en.wikiped...volution ]

I.e. you are not a perfect clone of any of your parents. Everyone see the evidence of evolution daily, and its biological (so physics) basis. And that is all there is to it.

That has been generally known, described, taught and researched for 2 centuries. Do try to keep up.

And what has any of that to do with the 100 % acceptance of biology among scientists? (With some exceptions, as always.)

Personal incredulity isn't relevant.

Mar 06, 2015
By the way how do you explain the fact that there are intelligent human beings in the universe, but there is no higher and more intelligent being

Where do you get the idea that intelligence is the goal of evolution? It is A path. Not THE path. Notice how we had many millions of years with nothing more intelligent appearing than dinosaurs with walnut size brains. If they hadn't been stepped on by some natural catastrophe that could have gone on indefinitely.

Who heals souls and bodies of people.

Conjecture without a shred of evidence.
This God who allowed it Son to be crucified

Conjecture without a shred of evidence.
This God who promises that for every faithful christian in the kongdom

Conjecture without a shred of evidence.
...

You're building (and believing in) a house of cards that is missing its bottom layer.

Mar 07, 2015
As the 'big god' belief did not start until after civilization, perhaps the 'fear of being punished' was actually fear of environment catastrophe. I suggest that in a predictable weather system, there would be very little 'fear of being punished."

Mar 07, 2015
Religion, the greatest invention ever made. It provides vast power merely for the promise of reward or punishment after death. It's perfect.

I'm still goin' with the wheel.
Religion isn't an invention - it's a lie.
Funny how... NOT lying is one of religion's basic tenets...


That's good but the wheel requires power, religion supplies power from nothing. Must be a quantum effect.

Mar 07, 2015
True science relies on evidence derived from observations and experiments. Unfortunately today's fundamental "science" relies mainly on speculation to maintain imposed modern myths in the society that are pleasing to some people with the financial capacity and political relations, and who do not like the Ten Commandments and God's principles. This official fundamental "science" escape the evidencies that are reminding for the Creator and offers unsubstantiated and unverifiable theories, thus losing public confidence because there is no eternal lie.
Evidence of our Creator is in the Bible but you must have honest attitude towards the world and people to feel unique wisdom, strength and harmony in this book. This book is also the history of the world, fully confirmed by archeology. This book contains the future of the world to the end that is soon. Be sure that the unbelievers will receive direct proof for our Creator, but this will be the last that they will see before God's judgmen.

Mar 07, 2015
Before this great event will be 3,5 years of unprecedented social and economic cataclysm that would be most sad and gloomy years of human history.

Mar 07, 2015
True science relies on evidence derived from observations and experiments
@viko
this is still true
and you've not been able to justify or prove with any evidence the rest of your religious diatribe, especially with regard to modern science being "speculation to maintain imposed modern myths"
the problem actually lies with your inability to see, accept or understand ACTUAL SCIENCE
http://www.ploson...tion=PDF
Evidence of our Creator is in the Bible
AND evidence that your "bible" is false is found thru archeology and physical evidence collected which demonstrates that your book is not only fallacious, but simply plagiarized false data
so NO evidence!
This book is also the history of the world, fully confirmed by archeology
archeology has debunked the bible already

EPIC FAIL so far
reality and SCIENCE = FACTS
viko & religion= unsubstantiated conjecture based upon delusion

Mar 07, 2015
Give me only one which is not product of imagination but rely on scientific evidence and confirmed without doubts
@renTROLL
this again?
i've linked at least 25 to you... and they were STUDIES, not articles
I have read many evolutionary related articles but to this day I can not find even one which can convince me...
the key words there are "convinced [you]"
the REASON for that is painfully evident
you will CONTINUE to refuse to acknowledge scientific evidence because of your fear and belief in your sky faerie
http://www.ploson...tion=PDF
refusal to accept science due to delusion means you will never comprehend reality
that is not to say you can't function in it... we have lots of loonies who get top paying jobs

you are just simply not able to comprehend reality
because you can't get past your delusional beliefs
self delusion is POWERFUL

Mar 07, 2015
This book contains the future of the world to the end that is soon. Be sure that the unbelievers will receive direct proof for our Creator, but this will be the last that they will see before God's judgment..

I'm assuming that both Viko and Ren recoil in horror at the atrocities committed during the Holocaust.
Why then, is it, that they worship, rejoice in and celebrate an entity who would do those same things to the majority of the whole human race?
Sounds exactly like the title of the article...

Mar 08, 2015
Do you need to remind you how many theories attempting to explain the reality from ancient times to these days are refuted today?
@renTROLL
i don't know ren, do i need to remind you that there is a difference between the acceptance of something based upon faith vs the modern scientific method?

do i need to remind you that your argument is illogical and fallacious from the beginning, as well as a red herring only meant to distract from the truth of the matter?

you have been given scientific evidence which was/has been/IS repeatedly validated
you are choosing to accept your FAITH over it ( http://www.ploson...tion=PDF )
not because it is proven correct, but because you've been TOLD to
even in the face of irrefutable facts about your own faith, it's blatant lies and the completely fallacious historical past which has been proven FALSE

and that is just for STARTERS

Mar 08, 2015
This not you suggest that many people tend to deceive themselves following their mental attitudes and creating their fictional reality?
@renTROLL
just like YOU are doing? just like ALL religions do?
that is the whole premise behind FAITH... belief WITHOUT evidence!
DECEPTION!
and repeating a lie over and over again doesn't make it true... it only serves to solidify the information in your OWN mind as factual, which is part of the deception as well as training of the religions
Why do you think they put kids into sunday school to keep reiterating the lies in the book you believe so faithfully in? especially in light of the fact that (as Otto has put it so succinctly) it has been proven FALSE

this is the technique of BRAINWASHING
this is why you are a good acolyte... because you have NO ability to question WHY your own book lied to you, your sky faerie lied to you, and your book is wrong so often

your a CULT member

Mar 08, 2015
Try to explain how it is possible///
@renTROLL
one last point i would like to make:
you are simply re-asking for information that has already been given to you
i know that i personally gave you answers that cover everything ABOVE in your posts

So the issue here is not "try to explain"
the true issue is:
WHY don't you accept proven science over your faith?
or maybe even: Why do you keep asking the same thing over and over when you've been given answers based upon empirical evidence and experimentation published in a reputable peer reviewed publication?

it would mean accepting that you have been brainwashed
it would mean accepting that your entire life is a lie and worthless in light of the religious stupidity you've been fed and still promote

http://www.ploson...tion=PDF

Mar 08, 2015
I have read many evolutionary related articles but to this day I can not find even one which can convince me that this theory have connection with reality.

You are either lying, counting 1 or 2 as "many", or you misundestood what you read, or what you read contradicted what you believe your god is telling you in your bible and your worldview so you automatically dismiss it as invalid and a conspiracy by athiest scientists since the bible says it and the bible is infallible because its the direct word of god or quite possibly all of the above.
Let me ask yoo-
What evidence would be sufficient to convince you?

Mar 08, 2015
I thought that the average intelligent person will effortlessly understand the idea that to be possible evolution in environment with ideal physical and chemical conditions and with suitable physical laws is needed to be fulfilled one fundamental condition: random mutations must have more strong positive than negative effects on organisms. Otherwise if we assume that life originated billions years ago by some unseen and inexplicable by science miracle but not thanks to God (this is heresy in some scientific communities) according to allegedly evolution theory, negative mutations would destroy life on Earth long long ago.

You have it backwards. Conditions were not "ideal".
Which causes mutations...
which causes adaptive measures...
which equals - evolving...
which means - evolution...
Get it out of your head that we are already at a perfect culmination of something...
We are not at the beginning or end - we are just in the middle...

Mar 08, 2015
One of the reasons I like the "electric universe" paradigm is that it offers explanation to thousands of years of cultural experiences which are otherwise deemed nonsense or imaginary. Imagine how our world would change if incredible aurora-like structures in the sky were observed between planetary bodies residing much closer to each other than they are today.

I understand it's a stretch using an investigative perspective by joining historical evidence (cave drawings, worldwide archetypes, myths) with laboratory experiments (Peratt's plasma instabilities) to bring logic and reality where there is none. Fear of catastrophic discharge events with passing comets, for instance, would certainly be of cultural significance while offering no available explanation for the phenomena at the time.

Mar 08, 2015
Science neither today nor in the future will be able to cope with this problem, which is beyond the power of human intellect. Fundamental science today is in a state of stupor, which is indicative of deceptions in which is entangled.
I did not understand how рандом mutations wit hypothetical positive effect for the organisms will be less than those with a negative effect, but yet there will have evolutionary process. Would you explain it in detail because to me such idea seems scary insane?
Your last sentence - fear.

Mar 08, 2015
How to survive the fittest organisms to the environment


Compare the woolly mammoth to the modern elephant. Would the modern elephant survive in the tundra? No, therefore only variants suited to low temperatures were able to move north while the thinner hair variants could exploit the niches of Africa and other warmer regions.

why exist such rich biodiversity in nature?


There are a lot of niches to fill.

Don't start that fallacious programming/mutation comparison again.

most of random genetic errors should have expressed positive effect on the organisms to still exist life on this planet


Try to explain how it is possible random mutations to have only 6% positive effect on the organisms according to official science


These assertions are not based on anything factual. Genetic entropy is the failed idea of one lonely creationist. It's refuted to hell and back here:

https://lettersto.../stan-4/

Mar 09, 2015
Again ren, what level of evidence would be sufficient to change
Your mind on evolution?
Let's make this interesting. Can you answer any of these?
1. Why did god kill off all the dinosaurs had they turned their back on god before the flood so he drowned all of them too.
2. If all animals alive today descend from the animals saved on the ark why don't we see heavy signs of inbreeding in every single species?
3. How did Noah get animals that only live in the Americas and similar unknown of isolated lands?
4. How did any fish not adapted to brackish water survive?
Saltwater fish need certain levels of salinity as do freshwater fish.

Mar 09, 2015
1. Why did god kill off all the dinosaurs had they turned their back on god before the flood so he drowned all of them too.

More importantly: How did the fossil fish die? Flooding isn't an effective way to kill fish.
(The salinty could have been preserved, as salt water and sweet water have different densities...see "halocline")


Mar 09, 2015
1. Why did god kill off all the dinosaurs had they turned their back on god before the flood so he drowned all of them too.

More importantly: How did the fossil fish die? Flooding isn't an effective way to kill fish.
(The salinty could have been preserved, as salt water and sweet water have different densities...see "halocline")

Were there tanks on the ark to hold the selected fish that survived into modern times?

Mar 09, 2015
random mutations must have more strong positive than negative effects on organisms
@renTROLL
you are forgetting about NO effects too
try reading up on mutations before looking stupider
start here with genetic drift http://www.talkor...ift.html
them move on to these
http://www.talkor...ons.html
http://www.talkor...ein.html

there is also the fact that mutations are not as "random" as most people think, and even that idiot jk says that one

Dont forget to actually read the references this time b/c they are VERY RELEVANT

the "science" you think you are referencing when you quote "creationist dogma" is simply PLAGIARIZED from radical religious lunatics
and this is PROVEN fact (and they've been debunked for a century too)
if you were half as capable at science/biology as you are at denying reality, you would be able to see that
https://www.youtu...jWkVKyRo


Mar 09, 2015
according to allegedly evolution theory, negative mutations would destroy life on Earth long long ago
@renTROLL
assumption based upon delusional interpretations of scientific data without the capability to comprehend the math or physics
try getting an education first, then re-read for clarity because you are NOT understanding the studies... you are making ASSumptions like jk does... and they're WRONG
If you can not understand these basics you can use the services of the microbiologists community in their forum
you should take your own advice
you would learn something
the Earth did not exist before billions or millions of years
this is your conjecture
but i can disprove your assertions of the creationists age of the earth with a single tree proving the Earth is FAR older than 6-10K years
the tree itself proves it is older than hundreds of thousands of years
Great Basin bristlecone pine trees - more than five millennia old


Mar 09, 2015
Fundamental science today is in a state of stupor, which is indicative of deceptions in which is entangled
@RenTROLL
the "stupor" is only in that which is inundated with the fanatical stupidity of the religious nutters like you
or did you not read about the Higgs lately?
Womb transplants and live births?

experiments that prove beneficial mutations (Lenski/Dr. Extavour) - of course you will not read THOSE... because that goes against your dogma

but what about the bristlecone pines i mentioned?
all that takes is the ability to COUNT
did they forget that in your creationist school, or did you miss that day?
I did not understand how рандом mutations...
i stopped there

you don't understand about mutations period, because you are being fed STUPIDITY by the likes of jvk and religion

try learning science: http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm
ITS EVEN FREE!!!!

Mar 09, 2015
One of the reasons I like the "electric universe" paradigm is that it offers explanation to thousands of years of cultural experiences which are otherwise deemed nonsense or imaginary.
@Rossim22
first and foremost, there is very little about the electric universe (eu) that is scientific
the eu might occasionally have some valid science based upon plasma physics, but they tend to deny proven science for the sake of their eu dogma, and that is religion, NOT science

for instance
eu refuses to accept magnetic reconnection though widely demonstrated (even in plasma physics labs): http://www.pppl.g...nnection

and believe in the electric sun, though widely debunked by everyone: http://www.tim-th...sun.html

but don't stop there, go here: http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm
its FREE

the MORE you learn about physics, astrophysics and plasma physics, the more you will know and the more you will turn from eu towards real science

Mar 09, 2015
what level of evidence
@jsdarkdestruction
i wish you all the best of luck
if he will not accept the thousands of studies and empirical data then he is not likely to accept ANYTHING scientific... i've personally linked plenty, which he ignores

only when his sky faerie drops down and twangs him on the head with the magic fruit-scepter of knowledge & common sense and then gifts him the logic testicles and the spine of truth will he be able to comprehend the science that completely debunks his creationist diatribe...

the funniest thing is: creationists evolved by stealing (plagiarizing) an already debunked nutter from another religion: https://www.youtu...jWkVKyRo

IOW- they stole someone else's lies! LOL

http://www.ploson...tion=PDF


Mar 10, 2015
tanks on the ark
@Wyde
there are so many problems with the ark it is not even funny... for starters.. it is two of every UNCLEAN beast... but 7 of the CLEAN (including birds, insects, underground fauna/etc)
find that here: GEN7:2

most religious idiots don't even know that... and forget to add all those extra's in to the equation (WHOOPSIE)

then there is the size!
the torque, twist and movement which would cause leakage and sink the ship, and that is if built by SHIPWRIGHTS
(the largest wooden ship was smaller than the Ark dimensions by a ways.. and it sunk due to my description)

now lets talk about FOOD (for animals and people) FRESH WATER and hygiene
IOW-TONS of fecal matter daily moved by only 3-7 people UP multiple decks to outside to be dumped!

now add in the whole fish and animal dispersal which could NEVER happen (can creationists say Australia?)

worst yet... what about those PLANTS? tree's????
OR
can creationists count? (see bristlecone pines)

LOL

Mar 10, 2015
Were there tanks on the ark to hold the selected fish that survived into modern times?
@Wyde
Watch this video about the Ark...
it is Bill Nye during the ken ham debate

it explains a lot about the ark in a short time as well as debunks is with hard science and SIMPLE logic!
especially considering that it rained enough to "flood the earth" therefore there had to be considerable amounts of WAVE action...

https://www.youtu...hXQTMOEc

Mar 10, 2015
Noah's Ark which was wooden with a limited capacity due to strength considerations had no resources to take these large animals on board
@renTROLL
epic logic failure AGAIN
your "ark" also could not have taken the pairs of unclean animals as well as the 7 each of the others! GEN 7:2
The inbreeding is not a problem
speak for your OWN family history
Animals themselves went to Noah's ark
ALREADY DEBUNKED
plus you cannot describe dispersal FROM the ark after recession, which clearly shows a specific altered series of mutated animals in Australia, which (again) DEBUNKS your religious stupidity re: ark
and you are not even addressing the PHYSICS of a wooden boat in waves filled to capacity with food, water, fecal matter and more! https://www.youtu...hXQTMOEc
Before the flood there were no oceans and all water sources on the planet were fresh
this is called PERSONAL CONJECTURE based upon delusional beliefs and irrational behaviour

evidence?

Mar 10, 2015
Yes, I am afraid of stupidity, which generates selfishness, pride and vanity of some of the people vested with power
@renTROLL
but it is OK to be completely stupid as an acolyte following a religious leader?
is that your excuse? or are you simply saying that you have Dunning-Kruger?
Anyway mankind for thousands of years failed to build a just and developed society living in harmony with God's laws and principles
you should watch THESE
https://www.youtu...ooMBIyC8
https://www.youtu...ExsAJLmI
https://www.youtu...e2NDSTuE
https://www.youtu...r_k59O6s

those completely destroy your religion
although it is humour, it is also considerably more logical than your suggestions about an invisible sky faerie who can't get it right and still can't show evidence of self

and dont bother with that FAITH crap
that was debunked when you presented the BIBLE as evidence
fallacious as it already is proven to be

Mar 10, 2015
After the flood the earth's crust is highly folded ... billions of years on which relies official mythology oceans would be lifeless waters supersaturated with brine. Many before to happen this fertile soil would be washed away by erosion.
@renTROLL
and SCIENCE is based upon EVIDENCE
not conjecture scribbled in a plagiarized book stolen from other myths and legends talking about invisible sky faeries who can't even get it right with their own book

try reading this: http://www.talkor...ark.html
don't forget to read the REFERENCES which are STUDIES
EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE
not conjecture like your book!

like i said
I can debunk your young earth crap with a SINGLE TREE
(that is if you can COUNT and didn't miss that day in your creationists classes)

you do know, per YOUR religion, you are going to hell for lying, cheating, coveting (science) and not obeying your gods laws

Mar 10, 2015
Shoot. I hit 2 instead of 1 on the last ten post. Nobody think I support what he said in any way.

Mar 10, 2015
The post above this should say "the last ren post". Autocorrect likes to switch ren to ten.
Ren, do you think all dinosaurs were huge? They were not.
Many were much smaller than the mammals saved
Why did all the other species in the fossil record die? How did god decide which
Ones to kill off?

Mar 10, 2015
Genetic entropy will not allow more than a few dozen generations before the emergence of serious and irreversible genetic defects leading to the rapid extinction of all living organisms and the human race.


All bacteria would be dead in less than a day if that were true. Generation times for them are ~20 minutes, depending on species. 50 generations in under 17 hours in that case.

Evidence against the flood from the Grand Canyon:

https://lettersto...reation/

Therefore, the world is older than 6000 years. Therefore, organisms have been around for more than 6000 years. Therefore, genetic entropy is nonsense. Full refutation here:

https://lettersto...entropy/

Mar 10, 2015
еnthusiasm and persistence with which you constantly demonstrate that you have refused to think is overwhelming and intrusive as flashing neon advertising
@renTROLL
so, because i refuse to accept your stupidity that has NO empirical evidence, from a book that has been proven to be not only plagiarized, but FALLACIOUS, then it is I who refuses to THINK?

LMFAO! that is called transference!
common among the mentally unstable

tell you what, bring some actual evidence to the table that is not already publicly debunked and we can talk about "thinking"

so far, all you've done is IGNORE the science and SPOUT religion!
talk about NOT THINKING!
you can't even say your book is morally superior because far too much centers around KILLING everyone who doesn't believe!

all i can say to that is: come at me, bro
heck, i'll give you DIRECTIONS if you like
crayon or marker?
don't forget to wear your helmet...

Now, get back ON TOPIC and talk SCIENCE

Mar 10, 2015
I sufficiently clearly explained that inbreeding is not a problem
@renTROLL
yep
and i specifically said
speak for your OWN family history
that means leave your family out of this LMFAO
accumulated permanent genetic errors due to the mutations
really want to go here AGAIN?
already proven you WRONG with the links above... try reading them
OH RIGHT, you are into
practice self hypnotism
that is what you religious idiots do
case in point: ANON, myself JSDark and MANY others have given you scientific evidence as well as refuted your stupid holy comic, but you still refuse to see reality or SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that is against your religious beliefs
that is called blatant stupidity, not "Thinking"
http://www.ploson...tion=PDF

in fact, the whole reason you will NEVER be able to see REASON, LOGIC or scientific reality is because of your religion
See link above

Mar 10, 2015
Why did all the other species in the fossil record die? How did god decide which
Ones to kill off?
@jsDark
GREAT QUESTIONS!
better ask him how his sky faerie drowned all those fossil fish too!

he still cant wrap his head around the whole mutation thing even with my links i left him!
as it is painfully obvious by his comments and the FACTS that, as ANON points out
All bacteria would be dead in less than a day if that were true. Generation times for them are ~20 minutes, depending on species. 50 generations in under 17 hours in that case.
better yet, maybe we can get him to tell us WHY his religion threw out all those "sacred breath of god's word" texts called the apocryphal texts... if the BIBLE is the word of god and sacred, then someone is going to hell fast for deleting some of his books, right?

Then there is the fact that all religious people like ren routinely violate the commandments in his own book
but say WE have to abide by the written word?
LOL

Mar 11, 2015

Bacterial cells divide every 20 minutes under favorable environmental conditions. But what is the probability for genetic errors gets in simple organisms as bacterium and what in complex organized multicellular organism? Fact is that simple systems are more resistant to external changes. A complex machine is much more likely to be damaged that simple machine and any engineer or technician can confirm. If on Earth appear unfavorable for life conditions bacteria will be the last living organisms on this planet before the life disappear. Do not forget mechanisms in all living organisms for correction of genetic errors. Also do nort forget that natural selection destroys mutants and maintain for maximum time the health of gene pool of given species. Why exist such mechanisms after you think mutations wit possitive efect dominate theses with negative efect? To slow down the evolution? Think again?

Mar 11, 2015
A complex machine is much more likely to be damaged that simple machine and any engineer or technician can confirm
@viko
i can debunk your comments and creationist diatribe with a single tree: https://en.wikipe...one_pine
by your logic, NO complex organism should EVER exist this long

IF you or your creationist peers can count, you will see that the simple method of counting is all that is needed to refute creationist claims

there is NO reason to assume the holy historical plagiarized comic with old and new testaments is any more true or powerful than any OTHER comic, including the X-men or Hulk

there is EVIDENCE that the book is NOT holy because the Canon deleted the books that it didn't like (deleted your holy gods word because it didn't sound right)
WOW
guess it isn't THAT holy after all

and that is not even bringing up the inconsistencies or lies in the book either

religion is about CONTROL, HATE, LIES, PREJUDICE and DISCRIMINATION

Mar 11, 2015
@Whydening Gyre
Yes, I am afraid of stupidity, which generates selfishness, pride and vanity of some of the people vested with power.

That just indicates your sense of powerlessness in dealing with them.
Anyway mankind for thousands of years failed to build a just and developed society living in harmony with God's laws and principles, although there are recipe available.

Aren't we a fairly stable, developed society now? Additionally, ALL things are subject to cyclical entropic degradation. It's built into the Universe.
It is sad because there are no signs humanity to build such a society in the foreseeable future.

You're not looking very hard or in the right places, with a right frame of reference. You just don't see a place for yourself or your own set of values, in it. So therefore - it must be a bad place...
THAT is what's sad...
Face it, existence is a competition. If you can't compete, step away. Your god would welcome you with open arms...

Mar 11, 2015
Add this to the "Voices in your head" article, and you get, our own psychosis made us better people :-)

Crazy world, aint it? :-)
More to the point, maybe we can all hear each others thoughts to one degree or another, and the fear of supernatural forces, is our reaction to the thoughts of retribution in those we have crossed.

There might be more to this than you think. Add up all the different communication methods animals have via their senses and you get - a LOT of info being exchanged. Most of it "under the radar"... Our brains just don't work fast enough to process it all. (More coffee for everyone!)

And maybe the "Religions" of the world all try to capitalise on that fact.

If ya take a step back - capitalization is what it's all about... (sung and danced to the tune "the Hokey-Pokey"...)


Mar 11, 2015
Why not try to answer the question how it is possible when dominate mutations with negative effects on living organisms to have billions of years of evolution? If you do not understand the problem ask any mathematician or physicist to explain it to you.

Mutations with negative effects on living organisms that makes them less fit than others without the mutations are less likely to reproduce and pass it on and even so if the offspring is at a disadvantage because of inheriting them they are less likely to pass it on. Negative mutations being selected against actually explain s why all living organism don'thave large buildups of negatives making life impossible. Negative mutations that effect survival badly tend not to stick around long.
Ren, I think you should go talk to any physicist or mathematician and see if they agree with what you claim and then come back and explain it to us

Mar 11, 2015
Mutations with negative effects on living organisms that makes them less fit than others without the mutations are less likely to reproduce and pass it on and even so if the offspring is at a disadvantage because of inheriting them they are less likely to pass it on. Negative mutations being selected against actually explain s why all living organism don'thave large buildups of negatives making life impossible. Negative mutations that effect survival badly tend not to stick around long.

Pretty fair explanation...:-)
Ren seems to be missing the plain fact that EVERYTHING is a mutation from the previous generation(s)...

Mar 11, 2015
There might be more to this than you think. Add up all the different communication methods animals have via their senses and you get - a LOT of info being exchanged.
@Whyde
Yep, but this is not supernatural by any means... and it is not really hearing thoughts as comprehending non verbal communication
BTW - women are FAR better at this than men, typically

there is a good book that gets into the MEAT of WHY women are better at non-verbal communication: "The Female Brain" by Dr. Louanne Brizendine
http://www.amazon...67920104

she put out "the Male Brain" too
i HIGHLY recommend reading both, they are great books and INFORMATIVE
Ren seems to be missing the plain fact that...
you would be far more accurate to say "Ren seems to be missing PLAIN FACTS"

because of this:
http://www.ploson...tion=PDF
he fears scientific facts
PERIOD


Mar 11, 2015
The way you worded that last comment, viko, it sounds like you're AGAINST Ren.

Mar 12, 2015
Obviously you have a urgent need to read thick books of genetics and microbiology to understand the real mechanisms in living organisms. In fact any organism due to unfavorable environmental factors receives mutations. A very small part of these mutations are transmitted to the next generation first because of the protective mechanisms of the organisms and secondly because of the unlikelihood of germ cells forming fetus to have such mutations due to the their large number. The main reason for the large number of germ cells in males is lower probability sperm cells fertilzing the egg to have mutations result of the generation of the father. Men do not have duplication of sex chromosomes and the large number of germ cells dramatically reduced the likelihood of transmission of mutations. Seems you think think that some people get mutations with hypothetical beneficial effect and others mostly with adverse effect.

Mar 12, 2015
But mutations are completely random and the immune system does not choose which to repair and which not. All people have moles and cancer cells, demonstrating the fact that no one is immune to unfavorable mutations. In fact, they are always negative in the short or long term. You have a strong need to clarify the true picture of nature.

Mar 12, 2015
But mutations are completely random and the immune system does not choose which to repair and which not.

wrong. If that was the case, all moles and cancer would be different between individuals. Most are benign across the board.
All people have moles and cancer cells, demonstrating the fact that no one is immune to unfavorable mutations. In fact, they are always negative in the short or long term. You have a strong need to clarify the true picture of nature.

Are they truly negative? Or possibly just natures attempt at a positive mutation?


Mar 12, 2015
wrong. If that was the case, all moles and cancer would be different between individuals. Most are benign across the board.

(I was referring to mostly moles...)

Mar 12, 2015
Seems you think think that some people get mutations with hypothetical beneficial effect and others mostly with adverse effect
@viko
surely you are not talking to me... and the above links explain things for you to learn. if you are simply going to continue to spout unfounded creationist CRAP-O-LA then i suggest you go to a forum where that is permissable and wanted. this is am SCIENCE site
But mutations are completely random
not ALL mutations are random, just like not ALL mutations are negative. read the freakin links and give a viable honest science based question/post or be reported for TROLLING and being an illiterate moron (because it -re: mutations and probabilities- is IN the links i left for RenTROLL as well as the ones left by ANON etc)

if you are going to post religious stupidity with no scientific foundation and based solely upon speculation and lies...
be prepared to be laughed at

Mar 12, 2015
Yes, all mutations are truly negative.


Demonstrably false. There are many simple counterexamples. One discussed here all the time: Lenski's E. coli. They first observed mutations that increased mutation rate, followed by numerous beneficial mutations.

http://www.nature...3a0.html

The probability to disrupt the complex physical system with random changes is absolutely dominant.


All evolution experiments and mutagenesis studies refute this.

Mar 12, 2015
Recombination, as I've told you before, merely shuffles existing genes. It doesn't make new ones.

Mar 12, 2015
Yes, all mutations are truly negative. You can be 100% sure for this.

By your definition, then - NO life would happen.
Otherwise why the immune system that protects the integrity of the organism will try to recover damaged by random mutation DNA or other important structures in the cell without any preferences?

Because it is only trying to replicate what came in the previous iteration?
Remove only one transistor from microprocessor containing billions of transistors and it will no longer work properly or does not work at all.

Apples and oranges. We just haven't figured out how to build in proper redundancy, yet... Nature has.
(cont)

Mar 12, 2015
Purposes of this example is demonstrate that in complex physical systems can not happen random changes and we to expect positive improvements and growth of order and information. In practice the opposite of what you expect happen.

See what happens when you EXPECT things?

The probability to disrupt the complex physical system with random changes is absolutely dominant.

Totally dependent on the SYSTEM....

Mar 12, 2015
What makes you think that the results of this experiment you are caught because you have no other arguments, are authentic? ... even is in use today in many schools around the world? Аnd about anthropoid skeletons collected from different bones of different animals?
Why do you think that adaptation to environmental changes is due to mutations rather than due to built in mechanisms in DNA for recombination of genetic information from the gene pool of the species? Whether Lenski thought just for variety to make two parallel experiments - one bacterial colony living in certain environment with limited mutagenic factors and other colony living in the same environment conditions but without limitation of mutagenic factors, to compare the viability of the two groups under normal conditions.

You keep presenting perceived/created exceptions to a rule...

Mar 12, 2015
Perusing the comments, I can only conclude that the ignorant zealots of science are a far greater danger to society than their counterparts in religion. Science is fallible, thus the garbage pile of history is filled with what was once scientific fact. Science fails when it has become your religion, for after all, science must remain the domain of the rational.

Mar 12, 2015
Yes, all mutations are truly negative. You can be 100% sure for this
@renTROLL
Except that as ANON points out, there is FAR TOO MUCH EVIDENCE that directly contradicts this and proves you wrong, from Lenski http://www.talkor...ons.html
http://www.talkor...fitness/
(feel free to attempt to refute each of the linked references, but you are simply spreading creationist RUMOR with your stupidity in the quote i gave from you)
ALSO< it is NOT LOGICAL. you are saying that if you flip a quarter 1billion times, you can ONLY end up with HEADS. you can NEVER get tails because (insert religious reason here)
What makes you think that the results of this experiment you are caught because you have no other arguments, are authentic?
Lenski has been VALIDATED by Extavour et al as well as other experiments (including the one that your idiot jk thinks validates HIS claims: http://www.scienc...014.full )

Mar 12, 2015
What about diagrams of Heckel for early development of different species, which have proven a fake after decades of use in "educational" system
@RenTROLL
logical fallacy
what about GR/SR? are you saying that GR/SR isn't real because at one time we taught Newtonian physics? or because for thousands of years your idiot religious leaders refused to allow ANYTHING other than flat earth to be taught?

the ignorant zealots of science are a far greater danger to society than their counterparts in religion
@antiG
because as history has proven to the world, religion is about love and peace, right?
paragons of virtue??
the garbage pile of history is filled with what was once scientific fact
science can accept when something is wrong and build upon it (GR/SR from Newtonian physics... but we STILL use Newtonian physics to put rockets in to orbit)
if religion was in charge, we would teach flat earth and they would still kill witches/stupid people like you


Mar 13, 2015
. As a start to make it sound plausible you Whydening Gyre can give an example for a complex physical system in which random changes do not lead to reduced functionality or lower the order in system and loss of information respectively.

How bout YOU, for example...
All the changes in your life - have they ALL been negative?
If married, did your wife lead to reduced functionality? Did your children?
These are environmental causes, of course, but was your health enhanced by them? You're a liar if you say no. Statistics show that happy marriages and family situations PROLONG life...
Did your immune system acquire an immunity to a life threatening disease at any time? That event was random, btw...
Did that vitamin you took this morning, affect you negatively?
And it goes on and on....

Mar 14, 2015
It seems that it makes no sense to feed some hope that finally any supporter of the evolutionary myth will explain how this magic work in detail and give concrete examples from everyday life, but not common imaginary explanation in which they in fact do not believe and free interpretations which comply only with their feelings, but not with reality. As a start to make it sound plausible you Whydening Gyre can give an example for a complex physical system in which random changes do not lead to reduced functionality or lower the order in system and loss of information respectively.

Ah yes, the young earth creationist talking of imaginary explanations and magic and myths and interpreting things in a way that is biased based off belief.
Viko, WHAT EVIDENCE WOULD BE SUFFIENT FOR YOU TO ACCEPT EVOLUTION THEORY?
You have been given mountains of evidence. Reality contradicts your beliefs so you just dont even look or automatically dismiss it as wrong because god told you its wrong.

Mar 14, 2015
I meant to say "ren" instead of "viko" above.
However what I said also applies to viko too.

Mar 14, 2015
@Ren82
The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. Your pig headed obstinance based on religion is the problem, not the science.

Mar 14, 2015
You have no intention of seriously looking at the evidence we've provided
With an open mind. You are 1000% sure you are right because your god said so.
You have no intention of debating honestly. You want to keep ignoring and denying any evidence we present you with over and over

Mar 14, 2015
I guess you realize is that to have Billions of years evolution random mutation positive effect should be much more than those with negative effect - elementary mathematics.

Why? If you flipped a coin every second for all those billions of years, you'd still get only a slight aggregate more of one side over the other...
elementary mathematics back atcha...

Mar 14, 2015
Probably they do not realize that from the DNA of man can come out male and female organisms, but from woman DNA only female organisms which reminds to us for the Biblical creation of Eve from Adam's rib in the Garden of Eden in the beginning of human history.

Logically, a pretty good indicator that at one historical point in the long and arduous DNA building process, males weren't even necessary. Organisms used cell DIVISION to replicate. Many still do.
The Y chromosome is a MUTATION (tho yet to be determined if beneficial or not...) that allowed for faster species adaptations to environmental conditions...
So, if anything, Adam came from Eve's rib (or Lilith's). The biblical accounting just serving as proof that men's egos really ARE pretty fragile...

Mar 14, 2015
Viko, (he meant ren) WHAT EVIDENCE WOULD BE SUFFIENT FOR YOU TO ACCEPT EVOLUTION THEORY?

It would have to be in a book form (re-interpreted for many generations) and signed THE AUTHOR...

Mar 15, 2015
Why not try to answer the question how it is possible when dominate mutations with negative effects on living organisms to have billions of years of evolution? If you do not understand the problem ask any mathematician or physicist to explain it to you.

Like who? Do you really think they are going to say what you want them to? How do you plan on handling it when they answer and it doesn't support your young earth creationist beliefs? Does anyone/someone who questions your claims all "not understand"?

Mar 15, 2015
How concluded that the Y chromosome emerged due to mutation for me remain full mystery. Explain to us the mechanism behind this scientific sensation, to see if you really have not refused to think.

Never CONCLUDED it. Just a suggestion that explains the mechanics way better than "Whoop" - There it is!"...
Sexual reproduction is a "next level" step in an evolving systems.
Stop fighting the prime paradigm of the Universe - change - and start OBSERVING it without any preconceived notions that if YOU can't see how it may have happened, nobody can.

There is only one explanation how in this site such unseemly tales that demonstrate complete ignorance, gain maximum rating and this is definitely pure classical propaganda, which is not done very intelligently. Obviously relies on the quantity but not the quality.

Ahhh... A personal attack.
A desperate ploy indicating you are feeling cornered...
It only appears that there is only one explanation to YOU...


Mar 15, 2015
Someone will hire you to answer the question why the immune system attacks the mutated fragments in DNA when they have more positive than harmful effect to organism according theory of evolution theory. And how random mutations have more positive effects on organisms which can allow billions years of evolution?

No one is going to hire me to do that. I don't have the background education in that field. I DO, however, have an imagination that is pretty fair..:-)
Will some defender of evolution take dignified and fair position to recognize the error in his sweetheart theory. Or have a risk to lose its job? Are there strong personalities?

Ahhh... back to the personal attack mode (an appeal to the ego...), I see...
Desperate, Ren... desperate...
You've done nothing to disprove evolutionary theory, other than put up questions that you or your god do not have an answer to. And you feel seeking those answers is wrong.?
You fear knowledge, because you fear change.

Mar 15, 2015
These people probably have no idea why women have duplicated sex chromosome and why male germ cells are so many. Hardly realize that these factors significantly reduce the probability random mutations be transfered to next generations and in the same time unsure the optimal conditions for the fetus.

Females ARE BORN with their next generation on board.
Male sperm is in constant turnover, new ones created everyday.
Which one do you think is more apt to introduce "random" mutations?

Mar 16, 2015
@Whydening Gyre

If you lose a game of chess from the world champion in this discipline, is it logical to accept his idea of ​​the emergence of the world instead of yours? Only with logic you need to explain the world or still have to rely on the facts of observations and experiments. Because your logic can seems to you wright, but for others can be non sense.

So.... who's losing? Me or you? You, obviously, will not accept the emergence of my world
view... Unless, of course, that you give up all that as been stuffed into your brain about evolution...
Don't fear it... EMBRACE it......

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