Closer view of Ceres shows multiple white spots

February 6, 2015 by Bob King, Universe Today
Animation of  photos of the asteroid Ceres taken by NASA’s Dawn spacecraft on Feb. 4, 2015 at a distance of about 90,000 miles (145,000 kilometers). Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA/MPS/DLR/IDA

NASA's Dawn spacecraft has acquired its latest and closest-yet snapshot of the mysterious dwarf planet world Ceres. These latest images, taken on Feb. 4, from a distance of about 90,000 miles (145,000 km) clearly show craters – including a couple with central peaks –  and a clearer though still ambiguous view of that wild white spot that has so many of us scratching our heads as to its nature.

Get ready to scratch some more. The mystery spot has plenty of company.

Take a look at some still images I grabbed from the video which NASA made available today. In several of the photos, the white spot clearly looks like a , possibly an impact site. In others, it appears more like a rise or mountaintop. But perhaps the most amazing thing is that there appear to be not one but many white dabs and splashes on Ceres' 590-mile-wide globe.

Here the spot appears more like a depression. Frost? Ice? Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA/MPS/DLR/IDA

Here the white spot is at the asteroid’s left limb. You can also see lots of additional smaller spots that remind me of rayed lunar craters. Of course, they may be something else entirely.  Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA/MPS/DLR/IDA
Look down along the lower limb to spot a crater with a cool central peak. Note also how many white spots are now visible on Ceres. The mystery spot is a little right of center in this view. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA/MPS/DLR/IDA
Our mystery white spot is further right of center. Is it a rise or a hole?Are the streaks rays for fresh material from an impact the way the lunar crater Tycho appears from Earth?  Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA/MPS/DLR/IDA
Yet another view of the mystery spot. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA/MPS/DLR/IDA

Now let's take a look at an additional NASA animation of Ceres made using processed images. As the spot first rounds the limb it looks like a depression. But just before it disappears around the backside a pointed peak seems to appear. Intriguing, isn't it?

Closer view of Ceres shows multiple white spots
Animation made from images taken by Dawn on Feb. 4. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA/MPS/DLR/IDA

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Humbled1
2.8 / 5 (6) Feb 06, 2015
Are we looking at dirty ice, or are we looking at bright rock?

I thought the consensus was Ceres was covered in miles of water-ice, but this looks like there is too much variation in albedo.

Humbled1
2.1 / 5 (7) Feb 06, 2015
Cryovolcanism maybe?

How cool is that?

This is one of the few NASA videos where you can see a planet with background objects moving past. I just noticed that.
antialias_physorg
4.7 / 5 (13) Feb 06, 2015
Damn...and here I was going to go all "That's not a moon - it's a space station"
HannesAlfven
1 / 5 (16) Feb 06, 2015
Looking more like electric discharge machining, the closer we get. Would love to see the infrared signature, so we can swat away this ice theory ...
Humbled1
2.4 / 5 (7) Feb 06, 2015
In about 5 more days they should be a lot closer and have much better resolution.

How close do they plan on letting the orbit get before they stabilize?

The larger bright spot is something like 40 miles across.

Maybe the markings are different types of ice, like the bright spots might be from comet collisions. Like if you take a snowball and throw it into a brick wall and it sticks.

Another possibility is different density due to different isotopic sources, example solar hydrogen and oxygen vs inter-stellar hydrogen and oxygen.
Humbled1
2.6 / 5 (7) Feb 06, 2015
http://dawn.jpl.n...iews.asp

Mass is still asymmetric enough that you can still visually see a wobble in it's rotation as significantly terrain passes by the terminator boundary. It may even have a very slightly off-center core.

To see this, put your mouse pointer on the edge of the disk and watch how much it swings back and forth as the dwarf-planet rotates.

This behavior is very different from the larger, more smoothed planets motion.

Looking at the images on NASA's site, I'm going with the different ages/sources of ice theory. Either it's from some sort of cryovolcanism, or it's impacts from comets over-turning the ice.

It could also be from sublimation and deposition somehow purifying some of the surface ice by allowing dirt to "tunnel" through the ice, and clean up the surface in that area. It just seems unlikely this would happen in a 40 miles or so area and not other places.

HannesAlfven
1 / 5 (13) Feb 06, 2015
There is far too much effort that has gone into ignoring the electric discharge machining inference. Why try so hard to avoid authentically engaging the issue? It seems that people are averse to discovery on this particular inference. There is a lengthy history by now of observations which appear to show reasons to believe that planetary-scale EDM is real. I've collected them all here ...

https://plus.goog...k1oRbEec
yyz
5 / 5 (22) Feb 06, 2015
"Would love to see the infrared signature, so we can swat away this ice theory ..."

Herschel has already studied Ceres' far IR spectrum and discovered water vapor: http://www.esa.in...et_Ceres

Quote from lead author Michael Küppers: "This is the first time that water has been detected in the asteroid belt, and provides proof that Ceres has an icy surface and an atmosphere."

Swat away.
Uncle Ira
3.9 / 5 (23) Feb 06, 2015
To see this, put your mouse pointer on the edge of the disk and watch how much it swings back and forth as the dwarf-planet rotates.


Are you still working on some stupid you had left over from last night? Last night you thought the Grand Canyon was is in Colorado. This morning you are thinking that picture is a movie. Returnering-Skippy did not you learn the difference between the animation and the movie in the Genius School?

You should have gone to the Couyon School because you got the natural talent for that Cher.
Humbled1
2.5 / 5 (11) Feb 06, 2015
The Grand Canyon is in Arizona, but it is the Colorado river.

I know good and damn well where the Grand Canyon is.

Can you stick to the topic for once, instead of harassing people all day long?
Humbled1
1.7 / 5 (11) Feb 06, 2015
The star field is fake.

That outrages me. It says it on the NASA site, but on this article that isn't mentioned.

That's a misrepresentation of the piece.
Maggnus
4.8 / 5 (23) Feb 06, 2015
Looking more like electric discharge machining, the closer we get. Would love to see the infrared signature, so we can swat away this ice theory ...


jeesus, of course some EU nutcase was bound to make this statement. greenonions called the use of unending circular argument a syndrome. The more I see of garbage like this comment, the more I think he is right. This clown, canthinkforhimself and other EU acolytes, JVK and other anti-evolutionists, climate denialists, anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers, moon hoax theorists, and others all seem to suffer from the same affliction.

And what is scarier still is that much of the anti-science exhibited by such as these arises from some of the richest, best educated countries in the world! There was a time when the US led the world in science and scientific discovery. What happened?
Uncle Ira
3.9 / 5 (22) Feb 06, 2015
The Grand Canyon is in Arizona, but it is the Colorado river.

I know good and damn well where the Grand Canyon is.


Yeah you do now that I told you where it was. The article last night was all about the state and not about the river. Your "joke" busts you on that one Skippy. Just like the little fibby you tell about losing your password and your computer getting broken. Thinking too fast is what the doctors told you was your mental condition and if you are not careful they are going to send you back to the Mandeville.

But that is okayeee with me. You are still the funny guy Returnering-Skippy, you make too many postums on too many subjects you don't know anything, but still you are the funny guy.
Humbled1
1.9 / 5 (13) Feb 06, 2015
I have never been to a mental institution you moron.

Can someone ip ban that idiot, or does the site allow people to just follow someone around harassing them all day long?
Uncle Ira
4.1 / 5 (22) Feb 06, 2015
The star field is fake.

That outrages me. It says it on the NASA site, but on this article that isn't mentioned.

That's a misrepresentation of the piece.


What part of "animation" is it that couyons have so much trouble with? It says him right up there on the picture. Skippy, you got to go slower and write less otherwise peoples might start making fun with you.
Humbled1
1.9 / 5 (13) Feb 06, 2015
The photos are real idiot.

"Animation" simply means to put a series of photos in motion.

Good God you are an unqualified moron, and you go around insulting me every day.
Uncle Ira
4.2 / 5 (21) Feb 06, 2015
Good God you are an unqualified moron,.


Well Cher, I got to disagree with you on that one. I am as qualified as anybody else around here.
Humbled1
3 / 5 (8) Feb 06, 2015
Some of those craters have rebound peaks. That is in-credible that the ice could have melted and re-froze. I knew the rebound peaks survived in large enough collisions on rock, but I wouldn't have thought this dwarf planet could have them. You'd think it would get resurfaced by any sublimation on the day side, even though that would only move a relatively tiny amount of material on any given day.

This should be pretty interesting for when they get in close range to do the mapping surveys with the spectrometers and possibly improve ideas about how planetesmals form and pass through the dwarf planet stage to growing into a full planet.

The bottom crater, near the pole, has a rebound peak. It takes a relatively powerful collision with respect to the gravitational force, to make that. Ceres is insanely cold and low gravity, so compared to what is required on Earth that isn't so big, but is' really big compared to the scale of ceres. That's about a 40 mile crater too.
Maggnus
4.7 / 5 (13) Feb 06, 2015
I have never been to a mental institution you moron.

Can someone ip ban that idiot, or does the site allow people to just follow someone around harassing them all day long?


There is a button, down on the right hand lower corner. It says "Ignore User". Ignore means that you don't have to read any of his posts. User is the person whose posts you wish to ignore.

You should try using it.
Humbled1
1.7 / 5 (11) Feb 06, 2015
I was mad about the fake starfield because it misrepresents the context of the object...unless they took a photo aimed at "infinity" and edited them into one another, that would be different, but we all know NASA usually does not do that.

I dislike the fact that they added it to this animation, and I dislike even more than the physorg article didn't keep that in the caption.

This is going to cause even more conspiracy theory crap to become prevalent.
Humbled1
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 06, 2015
Gonna be nice for the next couple days and weeks as data on the wikipedia page is going to be revised from ever more precise measurements from the space craft. I thought it was interesting that the warmest point on Ceres is actually warmer than Barrow, Alaska on Earth during the coldest part of the N. Hemisphere winter...

One day Humans could put Solar panels on Ceres and operate some sort of station for harvesting water from it. Deep space exploration would obviously be much cheaper if you can harvest water while in space, instead of launching it from the Earth.

Oh yeah, something else I don't like.

The camera has both black and white and "color" filters, but they didn't do a side-by-side comparison of a black and white image and a colored image to see what differences are seen in color which aren't seen in black and white. I know there is plenty time to do this once orbital insertion is completed though, so maybe there just isn't a rush to do it.
Uncle Ira
4.1 / 5 (18) Feb 06, 2015
Oh yeah, something else I don't like..


Oh yeah, maybe you should spend your days telling the NASA-Skippys everything they are not doing right. That would save them from looking so silly, maybe save them some money, and give all the other couyons a chance to say something silly here.
Humbled1
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 06, 2015
This makes you wish there was a live feed to the framing camera or whichever instrument they are using so you could watch it in "real time".

I have been waiting on this orbital insertion for so long. Ceres has always intrigued me for any deep space exploration scheme or solar system colonization scheme, so learning about it's composition and such will be very interesting to me.

We will finally be able to get the best estimate of how the interior is distributed and perhaps how much rock and dust from asteroids and comets is embedded in the ice-crust. This could be useful for mining campaigns in the future during space colonization.

If i remember, the spectrometers could penetrate over a meter on Vesta, and that was rock. They should be able to penetrate several meters of ice so we should be able to see all sorts of dust and trace elements preserved in there both from the solar wind and from impacts. It's like a solar system time capsule, if you can sort it out.
Humbled1
3.1 / 5 (9) Feb 06, 2015
Oh yeah, maybe you should spend your days telling the NASA-Skippys everything they are not doing right. That would save them from looking so silly, maybe save them some money, and give all the other couyons a chance to say something silly here.


Look, I bet even you wish you had both the black and white (higher resolution) and the color (emission spectra) of the object. Instead right now they just give black and white.

Oh well, this is going to be an awesome year in Astronomy. We have a craft approaching Pluto and a craft about to insert orbit on Ceres... I don't know whether we've had something similar since Spirit and Opportunity on Mars. We'll be able to tell just how much difference there is between asteroid belt objects and TNO's. Do TNOs look like golf balls? Isotopic ratio differences? trace element differences, etc?

These two space craft are about to answer these questions and more all within a few months time.
Uncle Ira
4.3 / 5 (22) Feb 06, 2015
Look, I bet even you wish you had both the black and white (higher resolution) and the color (emission spectra) of the object.


Well maybe I do and maybe I do not. If all it is ice and rocks and no atmosphere to play with the colors of the emissions then it will probably just look like something that is black white and grey.

Instead right now they just give black and white.


Maybe that is all they have to give you right now Skippy. You act like they are holding out on you just make you bothered. Maybe you should get the job at NASA-Skippy-Central-Control and straighten those Skippys out so we can see the really pretty pictures they are holding back.
Uncle Ira
4.3 / 5 (23) Feb 06, 2015
If i remember, the spectrometers could penetrate over a meter on Vesta, and that was rock


You remember wrong Skippy. Spectrometers only work on the light that reflects from the surfaces and the infrared that the surfaces send out. They can not see inside a solid thing. You are probably remembering something else that is probably wrong too.
dtxx
4.3 / 5 (23) Feb 06, 2015
I have never been to a mental institution you moron.

Can someone ip ban that idiot, or does the site allow people to just follow someone around harassing them all day long?


Why do the people who spew the nastiest, most toxic garbage on this site no one ever wants to read always scream for admins when someone says something they don't like? And they always think an IP address will win the day for them. I'm posting from 23.243.8.152. Do your worst. I could even have a different ip address by the time you finish reading this. Also, please do continue to show your tremendous lack of knowledge about all things technical and scientific.

I would also point out that it takes great humility and is in no way self-aggrandizing to brown-nose your godman with a name like "humbled1".
Humbled1
Feb 06, 2015
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
casualjoe
4.6 / 5 (10) Feb 06, 2015
Humbled said:

To see this, put your mouse pointer on the edge of the disk and watch how much it swings back and forth as the dwarf-planet rotates.

This behavior is very different from the larger, more smoothed planets motion.


This is going to cause even more conspiracy theory crap to become prevalent.

and I thought it was quite funny.

Maggnus
4.4 / 5 (19) Feb 06, 2015
There isn't an article on here for it, but I am outraged at how evil ISIS has become. They are now burning hostages alive, selling healthy children as slaves, and sending unhealthy and mentally ill back to towns with bombs on them.
I am absolutely outraged at the Islamic people for not proactively opposing these people more, and I am outraged that the Politically Correct crap prevents more proactive action against Islam.
No other religion in the world today CONSISTENTLY produces such hideous murder and brutality, even in it's worst splinter cells. How can there be 40 to 50,000 fighters, and who knows how many financial supporters in that organization, and the Muslim community doesn't know it or intercept it until they get this big?
The Koran needs to be banned and burned, except a few manuscripts to keep in museums as a record of the evil it spreads and why it was done.
Your post is racist and offensive and you should be banned from this site. For shame.

Humbled1
Feb 06, 2015
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Uncle Ira
4.4 / 5 (25) Feb 06, 2015
Skippy, this is the Ceres article.

The Koran needs to be banned and burned, except a few manuscripts to keep in museums as a record of the evil it spreads and why it was done.


And the bible too Skippy, that's where they got their start. It's been around a lot longer and a lot have peoples have been put to the sword over it too. Ban them both I say.

Humbled1
Feb 06, 2015
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Humbled1
Feb 06, 2015
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Humbled1
Feb 06, 2015
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Humbled1
1.5 / 5 (10) Feb 06, 2015
As for my earlier comment about the ground penetration of a meter or so, I may be getting Dawn confused with another asteroid or comet mission, because I'm pretty sure one had a ground penetrating radar or something similar.

GRAND might be the instrument I'm talking about, because it detects gamma and Neutrons.
thermodynamics
4.1 / 5 (18) Feb 06, 2015
Humbled1 said:
The Koran needs to be banned and burned, except a few manuscripts to keep in museums as a record of the evil it spreads and why it was done.


This series of posts is one of the most off-topic rants I have ever seen. I have reported each post and I suggest that others do the same so we don't have this kind of space wasting rant going on. He suggests that Koran be banned, and I suggest Humbled1 should also be banned.

Reported
Humbled1
Feb 06, 2015
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Science Officer
4.3 / 5 (6) Feb 06, 2015
Well, we've found at least one bright spot in this entire Solar System.
jazzy_j_man
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 06, 2015
Very interesting animation. I think it was a smart decision to set the "pulls itself together into a ball" limit with Ceres as it seems to have just barely done that.

That's a helluva swath of pubic hair she has though.
Uncle Ira
4.2 / 5 (20) Feb 06, 2015
It's not just a "religious discussion" it's a moral and survival discussion, and my position is rooted in the search for the downfall of this evil cult and it's origins.


Well I am about to make your day Skippy. Have you ever tried out the Bully-Pulpit-Forum for the tea-party-Skippys? You would feel right at home there. They don't like global warming talk. They don't like the p&c talk either. They don't like the Muslim-Skippy talk (unless you are saying something bad about them.) But they do really like the christian-Skippy talk (unless you are saying something bad about them.)

You should sign up and help them understand everything about everything like you do here. At first they will only let you make a postum every hour or so for the day or two days,, until they know you are really one of them and not an Ira-Skippy sneaking in,, after that you postum as much as you like.

Uncle Ira
4.4 / 5 (20) Feb 06, 2015
@ P.S. for you Not-Humble-Returnering-Skippy because I was running short of letter spaces.

When you sign on to the Bully-Pulpit-Place be sure you don't mention my name at first. Or anything with an Ira or a Skippy in it because they will slam the door right in your face if you do that. After they learn that you are truly one of them then you can tell them about how bad and stupid and such that I am. If you tell it good enough they might even give you a prize because they really, really, really don't like me at all.

Oh yeah, I almost forget, don't say anything nice about Obama either. He is the only person I can think of that they like less than me.

Oh yeah, I almost forget another thing, you can jump right in with the Jesus-Skippy and god stuffs and how he would be a Tea-Party-Skippy if he were around today, they like that kind of talk.

As long as you say the only good muslim is a dead muslim you should be fine.
Humbled1
Feb 06, 2015
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Humbled1
1.8 / 5 (10) Feb 06, 2015
In the images on the NASA site Ceres looks a lot like Enceladus and Europa, except not having a parent planet, it seems to have been bombarded less by debris following it's initial formation.

In a week, they will be close enough for the resolution on the rebound peaks to be as high as the parent crater is currently. We are going to see something quite unique in the solar system: An icy object mostly undisturbed by interactions with other objects.

I am very interested to learn about the rate of mass loss due to ablation and other forces.

Scientists want to conserve ice objects because they are believed to be good harbors for "second life" that is, alien life that is historically unrelated to our own. I think Ceres would need a radioactive core in order to maintain oceans under the ice, and after all these many ages it has likely lost almost all internal energy.

Some Antarctic and Arctic bacteria may be capable of surviving on this thing if you drilled it into the surface.
Humbled1
2.2 / 5 (9) Feb 06, 2015
Ceres and Pluto are both classified as Dwarf Planets, but they are quite dissimilar in spite of both being ice worlds.

Ceres is rocky with an icy crust apparently, and possibly an ocean between the two.

Pluto has methane ice, nitrogen, and carbon monoxide: essentially is an "ice giant" in the making, though a failed one at this point.

It is strange that nitrogen ended up on Earth, Titan, and the Dwarf Planet Pluto, but not on Jupiter and Saturns other moons.

Why should these three objects with no apparent relationship share compositional components while so many objects between them in distance from the Sun do not?

the moon Triton is made of liquid nitrogen and solidified nitrogen crust.

There is a way to explain why that happened. Water freezes at a much warmer temperature than nitrogen, so it could bond to rocks and dust, while nitrogen would escape as a gas, only to be collected on more massive planets due to gravity.
Humbled1
1.9 / 5 (7) Feb 06, 2015
Earth captured Nitrogen for a different reason: pure gravity.

Triton and Pluto would need a combination of processes, because they still aren't large enough to produce net growth due to their own gravity, as they are losing mass over time.

These objects would need to grow through nitrogen freezing to metallic dust and rocks which then collide with the moon or dwarf planet. This capture method would explain why most of the objects in the SS have more of their mass as a metal than as ices, even though the materials that form ices are more common in the solar system.

Two objects have a larger gravitational field than a single object of the same total mass. therefore objects with moons should grow in mass faster than an object of the same total mass in a single body. This explains why the planets with the most/larges moons are also generally the largest planets. Pluto is an exception because it's barycenter is not contained within itself.
Humbled1
1.8 / 5 (8) Feb 06, 2015
See, there is apparently more than enough water on Ceres to Terraform Mars, and we can get Nitrogen from Triton, and carbon from Titan or Pluto. When I say "we" I mean our descendants, because this would require enormous electric solar sails to use as tractors.

You add enough NItrogen increase atmospheric pressure to 1 Earth atmosphere. NItrogen is the key since it stays as a gas at martian temperatuers, therefore distributing heat and eventually allowing CO2 to sublimate from the winter side pole. You need roughly 3 times the thickness to have the same surface pressure.

You add enough water to cover 2/3 of the surface with water. You seed life from algae, cyanobacteria and other extremophiles. these will now produce oxygen which will begin to make the environment more stable and safe for plants and animals. You bring in all manner of aquatic plants and animals from EArth to seed the oceans first so that they can begin to stabilize an ecosystem more and more.
Humbled1
1.7 / 5 (7) Feb 06, 2015
If you can't populate the nearest planet in your own solar system, how can you seriously expect to populate a planet in another solar system?

The probability of finding another planet that is as close a match to Earth for humans to just land on it arbitrarily and survive is very low.
Uncle Ira
4.1 / 5 (18) Feb 06, 2015
@ Returnering-Skippy. This is not the article about muslims. I don't know where he is. This is not the article about moving pieces of Titan or Pluto to Mars. I do not know where he is either me.

This is the article about Ceres the dwarf planet and nobody is thinking about moving him over to Mars or even part of him. This article is not about that. And no, I do not know where that one is either.

So what the heck are you going on about? Is it the drugs? Or is it the mental conditions? It has got to be something Cher because it is not normal what you do. Peoples is making the fun with you. And if you are not careful, the doctors will be sending you back to Mandeville again for some more treatments.
TechnoCreed
5 / 5 (15) Feb 06, 2015
Cannot wait to see more! In about a week Dawn will start rotation characterisation (RC1). To know more about what is on the program for this mission, let me suggest the Dawn Blog http://dawnblog.j...ore-1885 It is full of information written by Marc Rayman; Dawn's mission director and chief engineer.

P.S.: Watch what happen when you ignore a troll. http://www.youtub...1LbC4Fvs
jazzy_j_man
3.4 / 5 (5) Feb 06, 2015
This site suffers as much from those addicted to arguing with trolls as those addicted to trolling. They really could help by adding some basic comment functionality like "reply to" so that it's not one big flat response space. That would allow peeps to quickly filter out the more pointless threads. Limiting posts to one base thread per user per article wouldn't be bad either.
cantdrive85
1.4 / 5 (11) Feb 07, 2015
"Would love to see the infrared signature, so we can swat away this ice theory ..."

Herschel has already studied Ceres' far IR spectrum and discovered water vapor: http://www.esa.in...et_Ceres

Quote from lead author Michael K�Ľppers: "This is the first time that water has been detected in the asteroid belt, and provides proof that Ceres has an icy surface and an atmosphere."

Swat away.

The presence of "water vapor" in no way contradicts the electric discharge mechanism. Comets are are perfect example. The EDM occurring at the surface of the rocky body produces the oxygen which combines with the hydrogen in solar wind to form hydroxyl molecules which are often confused with water vapor.

Whack...
PhotonX
4.6 / 5 (18) Feb 07, 2015
There isn't an article on here for it, but I am outraged at how evil ISIS has become.
There's no thread for it because this is a science site, not a goddamned political forum. There's no shortage of both political and conservative Christian websites, take your pick. And it's not that I even necessarily disagree with you on anything you say about ISIS, this just isn't the place for it. Maybe people wouldn't so reflexively downvote you to 1's if you would eliminate the the political and religious diatribes and stick to science comments. Please.
.
.
Vietvet
3.9 / 5 (19) Feb 07, 2015
@PhotonX

Humbled1/Returnners is an incorrigible troll. He has written disguising and degrading things about women using filthy language. I've more than reported him, I've used the "Contact" button at the bottom of the page to directly point this out to whoever is supposedly moderating, so far without success.

Maybe if more of us took the time to message the powers that be, he can be rightfully banned.
Vietvet
3.9 / 5 (15) Feb 07, 2015


The EDM occurring at the surface of the rocky body

Whack...


LMFAO!!

Humbled1
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 07, 2015
@PhotonX

Humbled1/Returnners is an incorrigible troll. He has written disguising and degrading things about women using filthy language.


No friend.

I love and adore women. I wrote that women in the U.S. were a-sexual, and some other choice words where those words apply, but my statments were in no way intented to be "degrading to women in general" nor for that matter any one woman in particular. I never used names. It was intended to apply to whom it applies, and not apply to whom it does not apply.

My statements are not racist either. I am white, and I was upset with white women, so I think I have a right to rant a little about the behavior of my own race without being called a racist.
Humbled1
1 / 5 (9) Feb 07, 2015
There's no shortage of both political and conservative Christian websites, take your pick.


Do you understand that political and religious websites are among the most useless?

Why is it the science sites never have an "off-topic" section then, so you can at least talk about things like this which need to be talked about by someone other than just the media?

The President won't even talk about this honestly, because of "Political Correctness".

The GOD DAMNED PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES won't stand up and say there's something wrong with this religion. Not just this one, but the past 3 of them.

Politicians are worried about winning elections. They aren't worried about winning wars or better yet making choices that help prevent future wars by removing the source of the corrupt ideology in the first place.
Humbled1
1.4 / 5 (9) Feb 07, 2015
Isn't it interesting that Ceres and Vesta have such vastly different histories, sicne Vesta had so little ice on it while Ceres has several times as much water as all the oceans on Earth combined? Yet they are both in the same basic region of the SS.

Do you think Ceres may have migrated, perhaps inward, from near Jupiter?

I suppose they'll be able to tell after full science surveys with the spectrometers how isotopically similar Ceres is to Jupiter and Saturn ice moons and trojans.

It seems to me that this would have been a "Water-world" had it not been for Jupiter's gravity preventing further growth, because I presume most of the remaining asteroids would have ended up coalescing with it into a single, more massive object.

Ironically, in ice-dwarf is actually better for a space flight technology to develop, because it has a solid surface to land on.
baudrunner
4.7 / 5 (3) Feb 07, 2015
We should push it into an orbit around Earth so that we can study it up close.

Actually, that would be such a bad idea, because that would change the orbital characteristics of the inner planets, maybe freeze or burn Earth, too.

Some day that will be possible to do, and they will do it, because it is possible.
"Only two things are infinite, the Universe, and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
..Einstein
Protoplasmix
4.6 / 5 (10) Feb 07, 2015
This site suffers as much from those addicted to arguing with trolls ...
Dedication to, and defense of science, and destroying false arguments isn't so much an addiction as it is a duty to ourselves and our posterity. Also, I've yet to refute a troll without learning something new, usually a few things; if there's a 'bright spot' to their presence.

@Science Officer—so it would appear; so noted in the ship's log :)

"Best scientific zinger of the thread" award goes to yyz, with "... Swat away"
Numerous runners-up from Maggnus, Uncle Ira, et al
IMP-9
4.7 / 5 (14) Feb 07, 2015
hydroxyl molecules which are often confused with water vapor.


If you actually read the paper you'd see thats impossible. The molecular line measured is specific to water, not hydroxyl. No confusion.
rossim22
2.7 / 5 (7) Feb 08, 2015
If the electrical perspective were true, then perhaps the white spots are discharge phenomena eroding the peaks of a charged body, just as a comet does. Fortunately, we get to find out directly. I'm not sure why there's such disdain towards EU supporters... the theory merely acknowledges that planets and moons are charged bodies interacting with the Sun's weak electric field in a plasma environment. What is there to argue?
We know that moons can sustain a charge as Cassini directly observed this on Hyperion. We know that 'magnetic ropes' or Birkeland currents form a circuit between the planets and Sun. Rosetta will be the best test conceivable for the EU theory. If comets are not electric, IMO, nothing else in that view can be as described.
Vietvet
3.8 / 5 (10) Feb 08, 2015
If the electrical perspective were true,---

That's the problem, it is not true.

Returners
1 / 5 (6) Feb 08, 2015
Representing gravity as a tension on an extended fabric appears to produce contradictions when you introduce a third object, i.e. Sun-Earth-Moon.

Tension Sun-Moon =/= Moon-Earth =/= Sun+Moon-Earth =/= Sun-Moon+Earth

"-" is a dash for a vector, not a "minus".
But if the space were a fabric and gravity a tension, then when the Moon is exactly between Sun and Earth the tension between them would want to be balanced, but in the real world we know they are not balanced as the Moon behaves as though it feels more attraction to the Earth. Yet if you could imagine the tensions as a rope between the objects...

But it doesn't work because the "space" part of space-time is 3-dimensional, but the rope only represents 1-dimensional warping, while Newton only represents 2 dimensions, even though it used the third dimension to project a spherical surface.

I tried imagining space as a massless fluid with a self-attraction and friction-like tension instead, which is back to newton.
Returners
1 / 5 (6) Feb 08, 2015
So that would become a sort of "weakly interacting fluid" (perhaps the virtual particle sea) which usually passes right through matter, but interacts just enough to mediate gravity and deflect masses and particles.

See, in Einsteins equations the "fabric" of space must be a "thing", not just an empty dimension, and things are energy mediated by particles.

Newton considered space to be "nothing" but he used the Aether as a modeling tool because he disliked the notion that light could move through "nothing".

Einstein didn't believe in "nothing" either, he just used a more abstract terminology than Newton to describe this "substance" as an n-dimensional surface that particles and waves travel on.

But this surface must be a "thing".

The Higgs field produces a problem, because it implies gravity is one surface and EM is another surface, etc, and equilibrium is where they intersect, etc, and then still leaves "empty" space being mediated by nothing.
Returners
1 / 5 (6) Feb 08, 2015
In Einstein's theory gravity isn't even a "force" but is a bending of space-time.

But when we do a Newtonian experiment: lift and drop and object, etc, the object is experiencing a force. If you don't believe it, try dropping a bowling ball on your foot from 5ft elevation...or drop it in a sand box. It will spatter your bones, or the sand, in every direction out radially and even with a vertical component in a parabolic toroid (rotated about the Z axis).

How does simply bending time for the bowling ball in one direction produce a temporary time bend for the sand particles in the opposite direction, while they are rising, which just so happens to produce the exact same effect described by Newton in absolute time?

It seems you still require a mediating force, time bends or no time bends.
Returners
1 / 5 (7) Feb 08, 2015
Another thing.

The experiment with the bending of light around the Sun does not actually prove Einstein's theory correct. The only thing it proves is Newton didn't consider a 2, as Newton already predicted light would likely bend, he was just off by a factor of 2.

I know how the Higgs field could be that "weakly interacting fluid", but a problem I have with this method of modeling is that a "field" is an abstract concept invented to explain forces, but how do the fields exist in space without interfering with one another except when particles mechanically collide?

If a "field" is a something, then it is neither a wave nor a particle, but particle collisions can break off chunks of the energy in the field and turn that energy into particles, but this just never happens in nature, etc. There should be signatures from Higgs particles decay around neutron stars and black holes...almost continually with the rate of high speed collisions taking place in those environments.
Returners
1 / 5 (7) Feb 08, 2015
The problem with the "field" model of forces is you are back to having a "something" which crosses a space containing "absolute nothing", and the field can move around in absolute nothing with no mediation of it's dimensions.

So I feel like a "Field" must be represented by some mechanical entity, such as a sticky, massless fluid, but of course we'd need to develop a model which isn't just arbitrary as a visualization tool, but is somehow useful for making predictions and explaining unexplained phenomena.

Some tests?
Can explain things already known and explained? as good or Better?
Can explain things known but un-explained?
Can predict things unknown and explain them well? (ultimate I think).
Can unify two or more forces? Maybe?

I tried to visualize every particle in the universe somehow linearly connected to every other particle with a band like a rubber band, and imagine massive objects as a "knot" of such bands...gets too complicated.
Returners
1 / 5 (7) Feb 08, 2015
However, what the "rubber band" model does is it allows "space" to exist as a network of arbitrarily length bonds between every particle in the universe. Every particle pair creates it's own "space mediator" as it were. It could potentially provide a mechanism for modelling and explaining entanglement as these bands might also be modeled as "worm holes".

This is a bit different from string theory, because string theory functions at the Quark level and at the Cosmic level in an attempt to remove "divide by zero" scenarios, but it ultimately ends up producing more divide by zero scenarios.

We would like to have a mathematical model which describes the universe without a "well there's a logical absurdity at that point on the graph, but if we ignore it any time it happens the model is close enough."

I don't like that, because there may be some unknown physics that allows FTL travel, for example, and we might not discover it if we are using an incomplete model.
Uncle Ira
4.3 / 5 (17) Feb 08, 2015
@ Returnering-Skippy. How you are this morning Cher? Never mind, I see you mental conditions are still out of control and nobody is supervising you using the interweb. I'm still good, thanks.

WHAT THE HECK DO ANY OF THAT STUFF HAVE TO DO WITH THE CERES?
Returners
1 / 5 (8) Feb 08, 2015
But the "fluid" could behave as a "rubber band" if it has self-stickiness and becomes tangled up with particles proportional to their mass (Higgs and/or virtual particles) but how do we test for a difference between this and a purely relativistic view (warped space-time dimensions)?

It would be useful to be able to model a field as a variable-density fluid, rather than some imaginary concentric circles and such. Then test to see if we can predict behavior that the "field" model can't predict, by using gas laws or fluid laws on the substance.

presumably the fluid is "non-ideal" in that it must interact with itself, but it doesn't interact with itself as strongly as it interacts with mass, explaining why masses move through it, but are deflected by it.

For example, the density of the fluid is greater in the direction of the Sun, therefore when a planet moves through it, the "friction" on the near side is greater, bending the planet towards the Sun.
Returners
1 / 5 (8) Feb 08, 2015
In Einstein's view, things bend toward the massive object because space-time itself is warped, like a funnel or bowl. In such a model, planets ride on the inside surface of a funnel or bowl.

In a "sticky fluid" model, planets pass through the fluid, and since the fluid is denser in the direction of more massive objects, the passing planet feels more pull in that direction.

A sticky fluid might explain why time dilation experiments work. perhaps time is dilated, or perhaps matter simply behaves differently in a sticky fluid.
Returners
1 / 5 (8) Feb 08, 2015
@ Returnering-Skippy. How you are this morning Cher? Never mind, I see you mental conditions are still out of control and nobody is supervising you using the interweb. I'm still good, thanks.

WHAT THE HECK DO ANY OF THAT STUFF HAVE TO DO WITH THE CERES?


Are you not interested in the why/how of gravity? or are you content to accept approximations and descriptions which however accurate never actually "explain" anything?

How is it that at midnight I can wave my hands over my head and not have any resistance, but in Einstein's theory there is a "surface" there that is deflecting the entire planet Earth towards the Sun in space and time?

In order to explain that you have to assume I am in a stationary reference frame, but when you do that the behavior of the Sun, Moon, and Stars is back to the stone age.

But if we are passing through a fluid that interacts proportional to mass, you get a different result.
Uncle Ira
4.3 / 5 (16) Feb 08, 2015
@ Returnering-Skippy. How you are this morning Cher? Never mind, I see you mental conditions are still out of control and nobody is supervising you using the interweb. I'm still good, thanks.

WHAT THE HECK DO ANY OF THAT STUFF HAVE TO DO WITH THE CERES?


Are you not interested in the why/how of gravity? or are you content to accept approximations and descriptions which however accurate never actually "explain" anything?


I am content to read the Ceres article about the Ceres.

But if we are passing through a fluid that interacts proportional to mass, you get a different result.


Read the book I read about that Skippy. Or if you don't want to buy the book there is some good stuffs on the interweb that Google-Skippy will tell you about. Albert Michelson is the Scientist-Skippy who already tested out all that fluid foolishment. You and Zephir-Skippy are the only two couyons that missed it.
Returners
1 / 5 (7) Feb 08, 2015
Michelson didn't disprove the existence of a fluid or fluid-like entity. The only thing he did is at most disprove one assumption about the fluid, which is modification of the speed of light based on relative motion of the observer.

Relativity says that space-time is some sort of fabric which is bent in the direction of mass, and bends objects in the direction of mass, but it offers no explaination of what this fabric is or how it exists.

Some ramifications of Quantum theory claims there is a sea of virtual particles which pop in and out of existence.

The quantum model actually looks more like the Aether than the Relativity, because virtual particles could be envisioned as a "weakly interacting fluid"...there may even be virtual particles with properties we aren't aware of if such is the case, rather than just "virtual photons".

Hawking Radiation is the theoretical work that shows virtual particles are "real" and influence "real" mass.
Uncle Ira
4.5 / 5 (15) Feb 08, 2015
@ Returnering-Skippy. Are you retarded? You are like the four year old with the Fisher-Price Music Master who thinks he is the Mozart-Skippy. All your I Am the Genius With The Computer On The Interweb stuff does is give everybody something to have the fun with.

Why you don't just sit down and let the smart peoples explain some stuff for us? Making up a bunch of foolishment does not make you the smart scientifical Skippy. It makes you the couyon to poke the ridicule and fun at.
Returners
1 / 5 (7) Feb 08, 2015
When studying Black Holes and the Schwarzchild Radius, you discover that when a black hole's mass doubles the volume of it's event horizon goes up by a factor of 8 so that it's "effective density" allegedly goes down by a factor of 4 (though theory actually says all the mass is in an infinitesmal point).

The infinitesmal point produces a problem in black holes because it makes no sense.

on the other hand, having an actual "substance" which anchors mass to space and time somehow, such as a mediating Aether, explains why event horizons themselves aren't consumed by the collapsing mass. in my conception of a black hole, the mass can't collapse any deeper than a maximum density which stops at the event horizon. The Aether is "sticky" to mediate gravity, but it is also resisting total collapse, to explain why space doesn't just fall into this object and drain away forever.

An "infinitely dense point" produces an irreversible absurdity which nature doesn't contain.
Returners
1 / 5 (7) Feb 08, 2015
If a Photon is moving through "nothing" as it crosses space, then how does it carry directional information, such as polarization and momentum, seeing as how it is passing through "Nothing"?

Carrying a vector for a non-existent substance is absurd.

Vibrating in a non-existent substance is absurd.

How does the photon "know" where it is? Or how does "nothing" know where to push the photon?

Do you see why space and time can't just be an empty nothing of arbitrary model visualization tool?

It has to be some sort of substance that interacts with matter proportional to mass.
Uncle Ira
4.3 / 5 (17) Feb 08, 2015
An "infinitely dense point" produces an irreversible absurdity which nature doesn't contain.


Exactly. Now you are catching on Cher that is what I have been trying to explain to you. That "infinitely dense point" in your head caused by your mental conditions has caused an irreversible absurdity that doesn't exist in nature. It only exists in your "infinitely dense" head.
Returners
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 08, 2015
Exactly. Now you are catching on Cher that is what I have been trying to explain to you. That "infinitely dense point" in your head caused by your mental conditions has caused an irreversible absurdity that doesn't exist in nature. It only exists in your "infinitely dense" head.


I am trying to think of a better way of modelling reality, because the existing models clearly miss something important at a fundamental, philosophical level.

You on the other hand are only interested in insulting people.
Uncle Ira
4.5 / 5 (16) Feb 08, 2015
I am trying to think of a better way of modelling reality, because the existing models clearly miss something important at a fundamental, philosophical level.


You, Zephir-Skippy, Really-Skippy and Reg-Skippy got that same mental condition together. It is not something I would bragging on Cher.

You on the other hand are only interested in insulting people.


Well if you don't like it, quit acting so foolish and silly all the time. You make the spectacle of your self and then complain when somebody notices.

Showing up with your very own silly looking pointy cap like you did,, what did you think,,,,, everybody would think is part of the scientist-Skippy-playtime uniform?
Returners
1 / 5 (7) Feb 08, 2015
Why haven't particle physicists discovered a "space-ton" and a "chrono-ton"?

Surely there is some energy level of a collision that would know a tiny "piece" of space-time off of itself and turn it into a particle, right? That's how they predicted a Higgs particle, so why not predict a particle that is a fundamental unit of space and time, and try to make it happen in an accelerator?

Now see, if the Higgs is a piece of a gravity field which has been materialized to a particle then it presents a problem because it is not unified to the other forces, therefore these fields overlap one another in "space-time" but you have not provided a mechanism which "communicates" between "something" over here and "something" over there across this alleged "nothing".
Returners
1 / 5 (7) Feb 08, 2015
Well if you don't like it, quit acting so foolish and silly all the time. You make the spectacle of your self and then complain when somebody notices.


I correctly predicted certain astronomical phenomena and molecular phenomena years before the y were published in journals.

That helium balloon and turbine article?
I described a system like that several years ago, and got laughed at. Personally I think it's not big enough, you need a larger scale because efficiency in terms of the area swept by the blades scales by the square while the material scales linearly, therefore it makes sense to scale up the balloon and turbine as large as possible.

My musings are of great value indeed.
Uncle Ira
4.1 / 5 (14) Feb 08, 2015
My musings are of great value indeed.


Careful there Skippy. Saying things like that is why the doctors sent you back to Mandeville again the last couple of times, remember?

Anyhoo, carry on with your playing scientist game for awhile without me. 10 meters is opening up and there are a few stations I want to try to have a QSO with. I'll try to check in on you later and see if you are getting any better.
Returners
1 / 5 (7) Feb 08, 2015
Why do dot products and cross-products "work" for describing reality?

The mathematical model works, but "what" in reality mediates that function?

That's something neither Einstein nor Newton could answer, and most people don't even stop to consider the question.

Atheists who believe "nothing" creating "something" don't consider the question.

This isn't about creation, but about the "something" that mediates forces through allegedly empty space.

The mathematical abstraction we use is describing a "something" which exists in reality and mediates all directional laws and force laws, and is in fact interacting with the forces and matter.
cantdrive85
1.4 / 5 (9) Feb 08, 2015
If the electrical perspective were true,---


That's the problem, it is not true.


I guess since the senile old murderer who doesn't grasp the first thing about real physics says so, it must be. Not!
The laughable thing is you don't even understand the first thing about electrical interactions. Why don't you go away until you have a clue.
Maggnus
4.5 / 5 (16) Feb 08, 2015
@PhotonX

Humbled1/Returnners is an incorrigible troll. He has written disguising and degrading things about women using filthy language.


No friend.

I love and adore women. I wrote that women in the U.S. were a-sexual, and some other choice words where those words apply, but my statments were in no way intented to be "degrading to women in general" nor for that matter any one woman in particular. I never used names. It was intended to apply to whom it applies, and not apply to whom it does not apply.

My statements are not racist either. I am white, and I was upset with white women, so I think I have a right to rant a little about the behavior of my own race without being called a racist.


That makes you a misogynist. SO you are racist AND sexist.

You should be banned. Your sock puppets (Returners, Humble1) should be banned. You're the epitome of what is wrong in America today, and you are a shameful, racist, sexist, pig. Get lost.
Returners
1 / 5 (6) Feb 08, 2015
That makes you a misogynist. SO you are racist AND sexist.

You should be banned. Your sock puppets (Returners, Humble1) should be banned. You're the epitome of what is wrong in America today, and you are a shameful, racist, sexist, pig. Get lost.


I am not misogynist, and you are reported for slander/libel.

Returners
1 / 5 (5) Feb 08, 2015
You fool.

I don't dislike women and I certainly don't mistreat them.

You are a liar.

I live in a civilization that mistreats one another all the time and I am vexed by it, and you think IM the one that mistreats women?

God is my witness that every guy on this planet regularly treats women worse than I EVER have....and the women run to those guys.

Beat them, yell at them, mistreat them for sex, and abandon them after they are pregnant.

I'm as far from misogynist as there is
Uncle Ira
4.5 / 5 (15) Feb 08, 2015
God is my witness that every guy on this planet regularly treats women worse than I EVER have....and the women run to those guys.


Cher ol God-Skippy might get mad with you for using him in the exaggerations. The part about women running away from you to them might be true. But the other part was kind of silly when you think about there being about 4 or 3 billions of them and only one of you..
cracker_mon
3 / 5 (5) Feb 09, 2015
The last GIF in this post shows Ceres spinning----talk about a man in the moon, did anyone else notice the screaming 1/2 face at the bottom of the orb as it turns and vanishes at the last spin? I am frightened. ooooohhhhhh!
TechnoCreed
5 / 5 (9) Feb 09, 2015
The last GIF in this post shows Ceres spinning----talk about a man in the moon, did anyone else notice the screaming 1/2 face at the bottom of the orb as it turns and vanishes at the last spin? I am frightened. ooooohhhhhh!
This GIF is a 3D animation built from a sequence of 2D pictures. The dark area is just the part of Ceres that was not seen by the Dawn spacecraft at that moment.
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (5) Feb 09, 2015
cantdrive85 -- you may not believe that you're thinking with your other head (i.e., hypothalamus) and not much else but your words betray you. You seem to know as much about history as you do about physics, which is close to diddly-squat, as evidenced by your posts... try to use more than 3/5 of your brain. Here, concentrate on Ceres for starters.
Protoplasmix
4.8 / 5 (4) Feb 09, 2015
late edit – cd85, pardon me if you're not male, in which case amend the above to "thinking inside the box."

Either way(s), you're not alone—a majority of people are basically imprisoned in their own mind, subjected to a purposeful barrage from the environment of {work, fear, consume, sex, terror, fear, terror, …} directed at the hypothalamus (and amygdala, and memory), which works to perpetuate a metastable condition of permanent war—a condition that only a few profit from, at the greatest of human expense. Time for humanity to move itself up a notch on the ladder of evolution, from "war and peace" to "peace and prosperity".

Because Ceres, Pluto, Europa, Venus, Mars, the moons and the stars...
Jonseer
5 / 5 (1) Feb 10, 2015
In the animation at the bottom, it looks like Ceres features a massive multi-ringed impact that we see all over Callisto.
yep
2 / 5 (4) Feb 11, 2015
Time for humanity to move itself up a notch on the ladder of evolution, from "war and peace" to "peace and prosperity.

That is not the economic system we have paid for. With private prisons and state sponsorship of the petropharmamilitarymedia industrial complex there is just to much fear to sell. That's why black holes do so well on the market. Theoretical reality is just so much more exciting. Who needs observational reality when we already know everything. I'm sure glad you and a few others are here to remind us how smart we are.
TechnoCreed
5 / 5 (3) Feb 17, 2015
Wow, could there be snow on Ceres? This is the latest image from Dawn http://dawn.jpl.n...N_lg.jpg I do not have any direct measurement but it looks like the albedo from the bright spots are much too high to be anything else than snow. How could this be? When Ceres goes toward perihelion (last peri: sept 16th 2013) some water sublimates and form a thin atmosphere. As it goes back to aphelion this atmosphere recrystallizes loosely at the coolest spots (water reservoirs cool very fast). I am no specialist on that but since others brought their grain of salt on this question, I thought it would be cool to put my own speculative idea.

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