Obama yields on smog rule in face of GOP demands (Update)

Obama yields on smog rule in face of GOP demands (AP)
President Barack Obama leaves the White House, Friday, Sept. 2, 2011, to board Marine One, en route to Camp David. (AP Photo/Carolyn Kaster)

(AP) -- In a dramatic reversal, President Barack Obama on Friday scrubbed a clean-air regulation that aimed to reduce health-threatening smog, yielding to bitterly protesting businesses and congressional Republicans who complained the rule would kill jobs in America's ailing economy.

Withdrawal of the proposed regulation marked the latest in a string of retreats by the president in the face of GOP opposition, and it drew quick criticism from liberals. Environmentalists, a key Obama constituency, accused him of caving to corporate polluters, and the American Lung Association threatened to restart the legal action it had begun against rules proposed by President George W. Bush.

The White House has been under heavy pressure from GOP lawmakers and major industries, which have slammed the stricter standard as an unnecessary jobs killer. The Environmental Protection Agency, whose scientific advisers favored the tighter limits, had predicted the proposed change would cost up to $90 billion a year, making it one of the most expensive environmental regulations ever imposed in the U.S.

However, the Clean Air Act bars the EPA from considering the costs of complying when setting public health standards.

Obama said his decision was made in part to reduce regulatory burdens and uncertainty at a time of rampant questions about the strength of the U.S. economy.

Underscoring the economic concerns: a new report Friday that showed the economy essentially adding no jobs in August and the unemployment rate stubbornly stuck at 9.1 percent.

The regulation would have reduced concentrations of ground-level ozone, the main ingredient in smog, a powerful lung irritant that can cause asthma and other lung ailments. Smog is created when emissions from cars, power and chemical plants, refineries and other factories mix in sunlight and heat.

Republican lawmakers, already emboldened by Obama's concessions on extending Bush-era tax cuts and his agreement to more than $1 trillion in spending reductions as the price for raising the nation's debt ceiling, had pledged to try to block the stricter smog standards as well as other EPA regulations when they returned to Washington after Labor Day.

A spokesman for House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, had muted praise for the White House Friday, saying that withdrawal of the smog regulation was a good first step toward removing obstacles that are blocking business growth.

"But it is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to stopping Washington Democrats' agenda of tax hikes, more government `stimulus' spending and increased regulations, which are all making it harder to create more American jobs," said Boehner spokesman Michael Steel.

Thomas Donohue, president of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, said the move was "an enormous victory for America's job creators, the right decision by the president and one that will help reduce the uncertainty facing businesses."

White House officials said the president's decision was not the product of industry pressure, and they said the administration would continue to fight other efforts by Republicans to dismantle the EPA's authority.

But that was little consolation for many of the president's supporters. The group MoveOn.org issued a scathing statement, saying Obama's decision was one it would have expected from his Republican predecessor.

"Many MoveOn members are wondering today how they can ever work for President Obama's re-election, or make the case for him to their neighbors, when he does something like this, after extending the Bush tax cuts for the rich and giving in to tea party demands on the debt deal," said Justin Ruben, the group's executive director.

The American Lung Association, which had sued the EPA over Bush's smog standards, said it would resume its legal fight now that Obama was essentially endorsing the weaker limit. The group had suspended its lawsuit after the Obama administration pledged to change it.

Obama's decision, in fact, mirrors one made by Bush in 2008. After EPA scientists recommended a stricter standard to better protect public health, Bush personally intervened after hearing complaints from electric utilities and other affected industries. His EPA set a standard of 75 parts per billion, stricter than one adopted in 1997, but not as strong as federal scientists said was needed to protect public health.

In March, the EPA's independent panel of scientific advisers sent a letter to the agency's administrator, Lisa Jackson, saying it was its unanimous recommendation to make the smog standards stronger and that the evidence was "sufficiently certain" that the range proposed in January 2010 under Obama would benefit public health.

But the White House, which has pledged to base decisions on science, said Friday the science behind its initial decision needed to be updated, a process already under way at EPA. The smog standard now is to be revised until 2013.

Whether Obama still occupies the White House at that point depends on the outcome of next year's presidential election.

Cass Sunstein, the head of the White House regulatory office, said changing the smog regulation now, only to have it be reconsidered again in two years, would create unnecessary uncertainty for the private sector and local governments.

The stricter limits initially proposed by Obama would have doubled the number of counties in violation. Smoggy cities such as Los Angeles and Houston would have been joined by counties in California's Napa Valley and one in Kansas with a population of 3,000. They would have had up to 20 years to meet the new limits, once EPA settled on a final number, or would have faced federal penalties.

In his statement, the president said scrapping the stronger smog standards did not reflect a weakening of his commitment to protecting public health and the environment.

"I will continue to stand with the hardworking men and women at the EPA as they strive every day to hold polluters accountable and protect our families from harmful pollution," Obama said.

Even before Friday's decision - announced as many Americans were paying more attention to their Labor Day weekend plans than the news - the White House has faced some criticism for its record on the environment. Obama abandoned a campaign pledge to set the first-ever limits on the pollution blamed for global warming, and he announced an expansion of offshore drilling before the Gulf oil spill sidelined those plans.

However, he has successfully taken other steps to reduce air pollution, such as doubling fuel efficiency standards for cars and light trucks, clamping down on pollution from power plants that blows downwind and setting the first national standard for mercury, a toxic metal, from power plants, all in the face of Republican and industry opposition.

The ground-level ozone standard is closely associated with public health - something the president said he wouldn't compromise in his regulatory review.


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Sep 02, 2011
Never heard from the mouth of a free-market Republican : "If your company can't adapt to regulations, it doesn't deserve to continue to exist".

Sep 02, 2011
Thanks for the message.

Obama's propaganda campaign is coming apart at the seams today, almost as precipitously as his fall in the polls!

Did wilileak e-mail messages change his attitude?

www.physorg.com/n...ure.html

www.physorg.com/n...rnet.htm

www.physorg.com/n...ery.html

Is deception in government climate science ending?

www.youtube.com/w...IFmZpFco

http://joannenova...imeline/

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo

Sep 02, 2011
Who has been hiding, avoiding or manipulating experimental observations and data since 1971 that would have revealed the

1. Origin [Science 195, 208-209 (1977)];

www.omatumr.com/a...enon.pdf

2. Composition [Meteoritics 18, 209-222 (1983)];

www.omatumr.com/a...nces.pdf

3. Source of energy [The APEIRON Journal (2011)] that sustains life, and

http://arxiv.org/...2.1499v1

4. Controls Earths changing climate [Energy & Environ. 20, 131-144 (2009]

http://arxiv.org/pdf/0905.0704

That is the key question!

With kind regards,
Oliver K Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo

Sep 02, 2011
True to form, ANYTHING that change the GOP devoutees' way of life is a "burden" on the country. Anybody short of breath can buy bottled air -if they can afford it-which they will happy sell. It will help the economy, you know?

Sep 02, 2011

The president however insisted that he had not diluted his commitment to the environment, despite the move on ozone, a pollutant detrimental to health, crops and trees and is the main component of smog.
"I want to be clear: my commitment and the commitment of my administration to protecting public health and the environment is unwavering," he said.


That's quite a contradiction.

I'm starting to think that Obama is the biggest "Blue-Dog" Democrat of them all. Seems more like "planned concession" than "cave in"...


Sep 02, 2011
If regulations destroy the economy, people will revert to 'natural' ways to heat their houses, burning wood, coal or cow dung.
New York City welcomed the horseless carriages as they ended the horse manure dust and all the dead horses littering streets.

Science fiction is not a good basis to regulate. Which is what the 'progressives' do.

Sep 02, 2011
Never heard from the mouth of a free-market Republican : "If your company can't adapt to regulations, it doesn't deserve to continue to exist".


There's only the problem, that regulations can always be made to put any company under.

Sep 03, 2011
Why do people jump right into one sided arguments about global warming or rep v dem.

If there is any conspiracy regarding global warming i would bet its to keep emissions at a level where they aren't damaging our brains enough to notice.

Just like food manufacturers tolerate just a little poison, just enough to kill all organisms in the product but not enough to cause immediate reaction.

Our air should contain as little CO as possible forget CO2 for a second and focus on benzene and carcinogenic hydrocarbons that burning ~ANYTHING will emit. `Sure there's a background level from natural fires but Anthropogenic Carcinogen Emission (ACE - It's mine bitches) could should examined much more closely, except I believe the EPA is really corrupt or underfunded and mismanaged because they sure aren't protecting 100% of the environment. Unless your definition of environments includes fluorescing parking lots.

Sep 03, 2011
People seem to think taking decisions like these is easy. Ideology is the goal, not the law. You can't fit ideology into reality without compromise.

Sep 03, 2011
"People seem to think taking decisions like these is easy. Ideology is the goal, not the law. You can't fit ideology into reality without compromise." - Objectivist

It seems that the Republicans are doing a fairly good job of it, though the only compromises they make are for corporations and the super rich.

Sep 03, 2011
"People seem to think taking decisions like these is easy. Ideology is the goal, not the law. You can't fit ideology into reality without compromise." - Objectivist

It seems that the Republicans are doing a fairly good job of it, though the only compromises they make are for corporations and the super rich.


Warren Buffett and George Soros disagree, I'm sure.

This was a hyper-political move by the President. He 'gave in' to the GOP's demands (who was protesting anyhow? there really wasn't much said other than generic anti-EPA sentiments and a few sighs from GOP legislators saying 'really, you're going to increase costs now?') This isn't just about businesses 'having their way' - it's also about government not overreaching and turning proper research to inefficient causes (low-flush toilets, lightbulbs, biofuels - all pretty significant mandated flops).
Would you rather companies spent an extra 5% scrubbing their plants or research a totally new manufacturing method?

Sep 03, 2011
"The Electric Reliability Council of Texas, operator of the state's power grid, said in a report today that a new federal environmental regulation would reduce generating capacity and put the grid "at increasing risk of emergency events," including rotating power outages.

Read more: http://www.star-t...WtZiq22V
"
That's one way to cut emissions. Stop generating power. How many people did hurricane Irene save by cutting power to millions?

Sep 03, 2011
@ryggesogn2 "The Electric Reliability Council of Texas, operator of the state's power grid...put the grid "at increasing risk of emergency events," including rotating power outages.
This is the libertarian/Randoid deregulated dream of unfettered, feral capitalism. Unfortunately for you, the emergency shines a light on the failures of deregulation. The state's grid barely connects with other states, which means Texas can't get help from other places when it runs short of power.

In addition, state officials have few tools to stimulate construction of new power plants. In the 75% of Texas that is part of Ercot's deregulated power market, regulators can't order utilities to build more generating plants; they have to wait for power generators to build new plants voluntarily.

Greed is not the golden key to prosperity.

Sep 03, 2011
Congratulations!

Admitting that CO2 is a gaseous form of plant food - not a dangerous air pollutant - is the first step back toward reality after 40 years of government deception (1971-2011).

There is a lot of work ahead!

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel

Sep 03, 2011
state officials have few tools to stimulate construction of new power plants.

Yes, they do. They can cut red tape, aka REGULATIONS.
Regulations ADD unnecessary costs.

Sep 03, 2011
"New Jerseys bid to develop new power plants as a way of lowering consumers electric bills suffered a severe setback yesterday, when a federal agency sided with wholesale power suppliers and the operator of the regional power grid on a COMPLEX REGULATION.

In deciding to approve changes in the arcane rules dealing with how power plants are put into service, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) appears to have established very high hurdles that may well block the states efforts to spur the building of three new power plants."

Sep 03, 2011
state officials have few tools to stimulate construction of new power plants.
Yes, they do. They can cut red tape, aka REGULATIONS.Regulations ADD unnecessary costs.
Texas IS deregulated, with homeowners switching energy providers like Spark Energy. Do you have difficulties with reading comprehension?

Sep 03, 2011
TX is still subject to federal regulations.

Sep 03, 2011
"New Jerseys bid...very high hurdles that may well block the states efforts to spur the building of three new power plants."
So says some robber baron, wanting to make another Love Canal.

TX is still subject to federal regulations.
Because many of us don't want a nuke in our backyard or an oil spill on the beach and in our food. Cry me a river, ryggesogn2.

Sep 03, 2011
This shows that Obama is at least slightly more intelligent than the far left. Even a man rated as the most liberal senator, Obama, understands you can't have massive government regulations in a slow economy.

Sep 03, 2011
Love Canal was caused by govt. The local govt FORCED Hooker Chemical to sell Love Canal and the local govt allowed houses and schools to be built over a known toxic waste dump.
The robbers were the city of Niagara that wanted the land to build houses and expand the tax base. And they had the power of LAW to force compliance.

Sep 03, 2011
"If regulations destroy the economy..." - RyggTard

What will they burn now that Libertarian\Randite Ideology has destroyed America's economy?


Really, free market capitalism has destroyed the economy?! If the government entity of Fannie May did not exist there wouldn't have been a place to sweep sub-prime mortgages under. The mortgage industry was purposely "nudged" to loan to unqualified borrowers by do-gooder liberal democrats.

Sep 03, 2011
"First Union Capital Markets Corp. and Bear, Stearns & Co. Inc. have priced a $384.6 million offering of securities backed by Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) loans - marking the industry's first public securitization of CRA loans."
"CRA loans are loans targeted to low and moderate income borrowers and neighborhoods under the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977."
"The securitization of these affordable mortgages allows us to redeploy capital back into our communities and to expand our ability to provide credit to low and moderate income individuals,"
"The $384.6 million in senior certificates are guaranteed by Freddie Mac and have an implied "AAA" rating."
https://www.wacho...1872RCRD
From OCT 1997.

Sep 03, 2011
Love Canal was caused by govt. The local govt FORCED Hooker Chemical to sell Love Canal and the local govt allowed houses and schools to be built over a known toxic waste dump.
Who did the criminal dumping of 21,800 tons of hazardous waste and the coverup, causing all the cancers? HINT: It wasn't the government, ryggesogn2. You seem to have issues grasping cause and effect.

@Noumenon Actually the MERS registry, created by banksters, allowed feral bankers to securitize bad loans and sell one debt to many creditors: In effect legalizing grand theft. Then the whole ponzi scheme crumbled in 2008 when Russia refused to play sucker. Nice example of Randoid libertarian free market thievery, Noumenon.

Sep 03, 2011
I'm wondering if Obama was just a shill for corporate interests all along. He certainly took good care of the banks. He caved on the budget and taxes. An elephant in a donkey's skin?

Sep 03, 2011
"Hooker says that it chose the site because the soil characteristic of the areaimpermeable clayand the sparse population surrounding the Canal at the time made the pit outstandingly suitable for disposing of dangerous chemical wastes. The customary practices then were to pile up such wastes in unlined surface impoundments, insecure lagoons, or pits, usually on the premises of the chemical factory, or else to burn the wastes or dump them into rivers or lakes. Except for disposal into water supplies, these practices were all legal until 1980,"
"Its also worth noting here that other wastes besides these 21,800 tons from Hooker have apparently been dumped into the Canal. According to New York State officials, federal agencies, especially the Army, disposed of toxic chemical wastes there during and after World War II. The city of Niagara Falls also regularly unloaded its municipal refuse into this Hooker-owned pit."
http://reason.com...-canal/1

Sep 03, 2011
Funny how in the USA, common people actually advocate for the economy in detriment of public health! Talk about being brainwashed. I don't care that some businesses go down, if they're slowly killing people then they must stop one way (adapt) or the other (go out of business).

People's lives are more important than money. Also you're paying indirectly anyway by having to treat all the people who get respiratory problems.

It's not surprising though, since in the US your job = your life, through the insane health care system.

Sep 03, 2011
if they're slowly killing people

Where is the data?
Countries all over the world have not banned tobacco smoking and most profit from it with high taxes.
That is govt sanctioned slow death.
Where is the independent, peer reviewed EPA data justify their new standards?

Sep 03, 2011
...these practices were all legal until 1980,"
That's why a law passed against such criminal activity. Why do you consistently back corporate sociopaths and criminals, ryggesogn2?
@Erscheinung If you look at Obama's State Dept. appointments it was obvious that he was a bankster backer even prior to taking office: http://www.counte...-happen/
if they're slowly killing people
@ryggesogn2 Where is the data?
Ok now you're just trolling. Google is your friend.

Sep 03, 2011
What criminal activity? Hooker disposed of its waste and waste from the Army and the city in a responsible way.
It was the City of Niagara that scraped off the 4 feet thick clay cap Hooker put over the waste they placed in the canal. The city was warned by Hooker and contractors that broke through the cap.
It was the city of Niagara that was criminally negligent for forcing Hooker to sell the canal and for building a school and houses on the property.
But govts can do no wrong?

Sep 03, 2011
What criminal activity? Hooker disposed of its waste and waste from the Army and the city in a responsible way.
You are dead wrong, ryggesogn2. If you think otherwise, why don't you grab the cheap real estate at Love Canal? Thinking like your is common with New Jersey mafiosi dumping barrels of toxic waste late at night off ships, and the Casalesi crime syndicate immortalized in the movie Gomorrah. No doubt you feel the government is oppressing the poor mafiosi with socialism and regulation?

Sep 03, 2011
It saddens me to see that the US is becoming more like Europe. There is enough mindless nationalism, protectionism and socialism here in Europe; why are you people so keen on making other peoples mistakes? Do you actually think that Europe would be half the economy that it is if it wasn't for US businesses? Stop your childish nonsense and realize that you're losing your most precious asset, your freedom, your liberty. Socialism is a time bomb. You'll always be losing your top minds to liberal countries where the individual isn't held back by the collective. Do you think the H-1B visa is a minor detail? Dr. Michio Kaku doesn't seem to think so, and I agree.

http://www.youtub...Y9j_CGgM

Sep 03, 2011
What deregulation is Venereal Disease talking about?
What laws have been repealed? What regulatory agencies have been closed? What cabinet departments eliminated?

Sep 03, 2011
This guy has it half right:
"I dont want to suggest the state should account for an even larger share of economic activity, or try to regulate risk out of the system. Nor suggest there is not plenty of regulation around (thousands of pages of rules, guidance and interpretations continue to flood forth). But not very much of it is intelligent and effective, and for the most part that reflects the weakness of regulators, in terms of intellectual capacity and confidence, not their overbearing strength."
http://blogs.reut...y-state/
He is wrong that the regulators are weak. They have the power of the state at their disposal at all times and can and do act capriciously.


Sep 03, 2011
It saddens me to see that the US is becoming more like Europe.

Not yet. The USA ranks dead last #47 of 47 in per-capita entitlement spending among developed nations. Life expectancy in USA ranks 42nd in the world. There exist wildly successful socialist programs, the most prominent of which developed everything you have today: science. So Objectivist, are you going to disavow yourself of all technology invented by science and ride your horse to work? That would be the Objectivist thing to do, if you are a purist.

It's funny how you keep dragging out the same, long dead arguments. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Was that your diagnosis, Objectivist?

Sep 03, 2011
He is wrong that the regulators are weak. They have the power of the state at their disposal at all times and can and do act capriciously.
And that power is the will of the people, ryggesogn2. If you don't like it then why don't you move to your libertarian utopia, Somalia?

Sep 03, 2011
There exist wildly successful socialist programs,

Yes, that is what bankrupted the socialists states and inspired widespread riots when the state can no longer provide.

In the USA, we have elections every two years. Voters did what they could in 2010 and will continue to dismantle the USSA (United Socialist States of America) in 2012, again.
The most important decision will be made by state legislatures that will redraw district lines. A majority of these legislatures are now Republican.

So why are 'progressives' insane? Their socialism fails to provide prosperity and liberty to the people so why do they keep trying?

Sep 03, 2011
"The average EU country would need to have more than four times (434
percent) its current annual gross domestic product (GDP) in the bank
today, earning interest at the governments borrowing rate, in order to fund current policies indefinitely."
"What will happen if EU countries do not set aside these funds? Unless they reform their health and social welfare programs, they will have to meet these unfunded obligations by increasing tax burdens as the larger benefit obligations come due. Although spending averages 40 percent of GDP today:
By 2020, the average EU country will need to raise
the tax rate to 55 percent of national income to pay
promised benefits.
By 2035, a tax rate of 57 percent will be required.
By 2050, the average EU country will need more
than 60 percent of its GDP to fulfill its obligations."
http://www.ncpa.o...t319.pdf

Sep 03, 2011
In Yellowstone National Park, and probably others, it is illegal to intentionally feed the wildlife. Bears in particular. Aside from the quality of the food, the animals become dependent upon the tourists and forget how to fend for themselves. They also don't understand when the tourist runs out of food. They get very upset and attack. Sounds a lot like the riots in Europe and other socialist states when the govt stops funding or cuts back. The dependent class gets angry and attacks.
'Progressives' love the power and control of their redistributive policies, but can't understand why they the run out of wealth and the serfs revolt.

Sep 03, 2011
Enjoy your Asthma, and lung cancer America! I'm so glad I don't live in the US right now. America seems to be having an epidemic of lethal stupidity right now.

Sep 03, 2011
This was over two years ago. What has improved?
"And there is a shared shock that the good times have gone. The explosion conceals a compressed desperation, the Greek psychology professor Fotini Tsalikoglou said of last month's outburst in Athens. Many young people live with the unbearable knowledge that there is no future. "
http://www.timeso...3020.ece

Sep 03, 2011
By 2035, a tax rate of 57 percent will be required.
Glad you know the future so concretely. Unfortunately your grasp of the present is lacking. The USA ranking #47 of 47 is an incitement of the libertarian and feral capitalist policies in the last three decades. Yet you claim it hasn't gone far enough. Meanwhile you consider Somailia a Randoid utopia: a model for the future USA.
Enjoy your Asthma, and lung cancer America! I'm so glad I don't live in the US right now. America seems to be having an epidemic of lethal stupidity right now.
USA is very adept at exporting it's problems.

Sep 03, 2011
Enjoy your Asthma, and lung cancer America! I'm so glad I don't live in the US right now. America seems to be having an epidemic of lethal stupidity right now.

So according to this: http://ec.europa....rds.htm, O3 concentration is 120 ug/m3.
1 m3 of air is about 1.2 kg at 20C and sea level.
120 e-6/1.2e 3 = 100 parts per billion. This is higher than the USA EPA standard.
How is the air in the EU?

Sep 03, 2011
Why do left wingnuts have to spam every article with dozens of their bizarre rants. Go away!

Sep 03, 2011
Why do left wingnuts have to spam every article with dozens of their bizarre rants. Go away!


Most of physorg readers are young. Minds of naive mush, with fresh memories of mommy providing their security, tend to latch onto far left idealism. Plus, being a "radical" is sooo cool.

Sep 03, 2011
There exist wildly successful socialist programs, the most prominent of which developed everything you have today: science. So Objectivist, are you going to disavow yourself of all technology invented by science

Even more astonishing ignorance from Kockevnik, I see.

By far most science is funded by the private industry sector. In addition what amount the government supplies in funding, obviously originates from taxes on the private sectors success, ... a private sector that is free market capitalist in nature,.. i.e. not government controlled, not socialist. Every modern technological convience we use is existent due to the profit motive and private industry.

The motive force which drives science are the very ones which drive capitalism; competition of ideas, desire of success, fame,power, finacial profit, intellectual profit.

The reason the gov is so inefficient & inept is because no one is behind the counter making a profit.

http://en.wikiped...f_scienc

Sep 04, 2011
... link broke,... wiki "funding of science"

Sep 04, 2011
Vendicar: "The perpetual Libertarian/Randite claim that has brought America to the brink of financial collapse in large part due to the deregulation of the banking industry."

Yes, because 100s of billions of dollars in bailouts are DEREGULATION..... Are you completely moronic or are you just pretending? In a Randian world all of those failed banks would have been allowed to fail years ago, not propped up by fucking statists like you.


Sep 04, 2011
loling at partisan sheep politics. Instead of objectively and pragmaticaly evaluating the given issue using your own reasoning you fanaticaly prop up instant ideology brackets like sport clubs.

The recession was caused BOTH by not sufficient good regulation in some areas (continuing banking sector deregulation and repealing of safeguards since the 80s..), and bad goverment intrusions on the other hand (sub-prime mortgage housing program, government owned Fannie and Freddie, FED monetary policy mishaps..).

Blaming only capitalists and blaming only socialists is thus both wrong.

Sep 04, 2011
If the republicans were smart, they would nominate a sure loser presidential candidate. Obama is doing their job better than they would have done it themselves.

Sep 04, 2011
Socialist Windsor Murders in the last 22 months 0.0

Capitalist Detroit (on the other side of a river) 200 Murders so far this year.


Why Detroit is in the state that it's in, is due to democrats spoon feeding that segment of America, unions, welfare state, perpetual victim-hood, government dependency. Detroit is predominantly black, while Windsor is predominantly white, both with very different histories.

Windsor is not a Socialist city, except for health care,.. and many Canadians go across the border to get medical attention due to the long waiting periods. I was born and lived there.

Sep 04, 2011
the closest Disciples of Ayn Rand {..} Greenspan believed that the banking industry would never make decisions that were against their own self interest and hence decided let the free market manage the housing bubble.

..Randite ideology brought America to the brink of a grand economic depression, that only massive publicly funded bailouts and economic stimulus converted into a recession.

Libertarian/Randite ideology has failed every time it has been employed.


Absolute non-sense.

Regulations were needed only because of the existence of the gov entity fannie-mae, an entity counter to the rest of the system in not concerned about profit in terms of motive. The free-market plumbing already existed and functioned for decades,.. once you install a drain you control the flow of sub-prime mortgages. The gov entity functioned as a sink for junk the market did not want. Banks were pressured to lend to unqualified borrowers. Another social engineering experimental failure.

Sep 04, 2011
Vendicar_Decarian, AKA "Scott Douglas", "Scott Nudds", "VD Scotty", and "VD Nudds", was one of the first specimens discovered that has become known as an internet-troll. He has a long childish history of over-blown rhetoric against the USA, Libertarians, Capitalism, and even the C programming language! Yes, even a banned troll from programming forums!

Some more over the top quotes from this failed PASM developer;

"12 more American terrorists were murdered in Iraq this weekend. More will soon follow them into death. The more dead americans in Iraq the better."

"The world needs more dead americans in Afghanastan & Iraq"

"Killing Bush now top priority of all Loyal Democrats"

Sep 04, 2011
Not yet. The USA ranks dead last #47 of 47 in per-capita entitlement spending among developed nations. Life expectancy in USA ranks 42nd in the world. There exist wildly successful socialist programs, the most prominent of which developed everything you have today: science. So Objectivist, are you going to disavow yourself of all technology invented by science and ride your horse to work? That would be the Objectivist thing to do, if you are a purist.

First of all, let's not discuss objectivism as you clearly don't understand the first thing about it, which you have very diligently shown in your nonsensical horse example. Secondly I'm not saying that forming groups and achieving common goals is wrong. Forcing others to join your group, with or without the power of the majority, is. The problem with the socialist is that he actually thinks he's wise enough to know your best interest, and ironically he's not even wise enough to know his own best interest most of the time.

Sep 04, 2011
It's funny how you keep dragging out the same, long dead arguments. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Was that your diagnosis, Objectivist?
Argumentum ad hominem. Typical childish way of discussing.

Sep 04, 2011
"He caved on the budget and taxes." - socean

Congress sets the budget. Not the President.

You did know that didn't you?


Ever heard of a VETO?

Sep 04, 2011
"Regulations were needed only because of the existence of the gov entity fannie-mae" - NoumenTard

Fannie-mae isn't a government entity. It is a private corporation.

Can't you Conservative Losers get anything right?


It's traded but it was created by the government as part of the new deal to expand home ownership.

Sep 04, 2011
"Detroit is predominantly black, while Windsor is predominantly white, both with very different histories." - NoumenTard

So your belief is that Detroit is a violent city in part because the citizens are primarily black.

That makes you a racist... Doesn't it?

My.. My... How TeaPublican of you.


You're an idiot. I said "very different histories", meaning being oppressed and further oppressed by being convinced they're perpetual victims by race baiting democrats.

Sep 04, 2011
"Windsor is not a Socialist city." - NoumenTard

It isn't? Socialized medicine, socialized education, socialized policing, Socialized housing, etc. etc. etc.

I thought you Conservative Tards were fond of calling the new deal "socialism". Well.. Windsor has it all. Except that it hasn't had any murders in almost two years while Detroit - just across the river has had close to 400 of them.


Canada is not a socialistic country, (yet), and does not owe it's economic successes to socialism. The USA also has such social engineered programs, but that does not equate to being a socialistic country, where the government controls and owns the means of production.

Sep 04, 2011
"It's traded but it was created by the government." - NoumenTard

Who created it is unimportant. The fact is, that it is not a government entity, but a private corporation, contrary to your earlier claim.

Were you lying? Or were you just spectacularly ignorant about the very corporation that you were criticizing?


It's for all Intents and Purposes a government entity. Yes, it does matter that it was created by liberal government and is still run by liberals. You don't understand the role played by Fannie Mae in the housing crash?

Sep 04, 2011
"GSEs are hybrids that combine the characteristics of public and
private organizations. Their ownership and their control are private, but the government provides them significant subsidies, including tax and regulatory advantages, and permits them to fund their activities almost as if they were part of the government. The GSEs operate in markets where their non-GSE competitors do not receive such benefits."
"Thanks to the perceived government backing, GSEs operate with
higher financial leverage and less capital than other firms in similar lines of business and thus with a significant competitive advantage in the marketplace."
"the housing GSEs are principally a vehicle for delivering
a federal subsidy rather than the source of that
subsidy."
http://www.aei.or...1604.pdf

Sep 04, 2011
Canada is not a socialistic country

Yes, it is, sorry to say. So is the USA. Does Canada have a minimum wage? It has a socialist medical system.
does not owe it's economic successes to socialism.

No socialist country owes its success to socialism. The challenge for Canada, USA, etc. is to limit the power of the state to control private property.
Cuba is trying to cut back on its socialist policies because they want to survive. Sweden ended its wealth tax to attract wealthy Swedes to return.

Sep 04, 2011
"You're an idiot. I said "very different histories"" - NoumenTard

You said... And I quote...

"Detroit is predominantly black, while Windsor is predominantly white..."

Why do you think that skin color has anything to do with Detroit's murder rate NumanTard?


Because, numbnutz, they have different histories. I already explained above, try reading slowing rather than tripping over yourself at the imagined opportunity of calling me a racist.

Skin colour has everything to do with it when they're treated as a second class citizens for a century, then defined as "victims" and social dependents by democrats. Statistics clearly show that crime is disproportionately committed by blacks. This IMO is not due to capitalism, which makes zero logical sense,.. but is due to liberal victim entitlement and welfare state created by the left.

Sep 04, 2011
Canada is not a socialistic country

Yes, it is, sorry to say. So is the USA. Does Canada have a minimum wage? It has a socialist medical system.
does not owe it's economic successes to socialism.

No socialist country owes its success to socialism. The challenge for Canada, USA, etc. is to limit the power of the state to control private property.


Yes, Canada and the USA have social engineered programs, but it's fundamentally different to say they are socialistic countries for the reason you just stated.

Sep 04, 2011
"12 more American terrorists were murdered in Iraq this weekend. More will soon follow them into death. The more dead americans in Iraq the better." - NoumenTard

Don't you agree NoumenTard?

There is a price to be paid for war crimes.

"The world needs more dead americans in Afghanastan & Iraq" - NoumenTard

As true today as the day it was written.



Did you try to make it seem as though I said those despicable things here? Do you realize that Canada has played a role in Afghanistan? In any case, the war effort in both Iraq and Afghanistan have been necessary. I can understand if one disagrees about Iraq,.. but to say otherwise about Afghanistan, you have to be a unthinking anti-war peta'esque dolt.

Sep 04, 2011
Criminality is far higher in the U.S. because the greater demand for individual liberty translates directly into a greater sense that violent or immoral actions are a matter of personal liberty.


The vast majority of crime in the USA is committed by voters of democratic left. The criminal looters and rioters we saw in London and Greece recently are all leftists, demanding their government dole not be cut as part of required austerity measures, needed because the leftists policies are bankrupting the governments. These are facts.

Sep 04, 2011
"Because, numbnutz, they have different histories." - NumenTard

Are you now trying to say that Detroit has a spectacularly high murder rate because Blacks were kept as slaves in America?

Oh Please.... Stop making excuses for your exposed Racism.


Obviously, if a people are oppressed, economically they are stunted for generations. They are KEPT as "victims" in the pocket of democrats, so it's ever so harder to advance. The lowest common denominator is to charge racism when clearly there is none.

"Statistics clearly show that crime is disproportionately committed by blacks." - NumenTard

Actually, most crimes in America are committed by whites.


Wrong again numbnutz, % wise of population.

Sep 04, 2011
So when Democrats push through a trillion bucks for "stimulating" us, it's peachy keen, when Republicans do anything, it's portrayed as evil. Next time just give me my cut of the slops, er... money.

Wow, good going elected representatives of we the PEOPLE.

Sep 04, 2011
If we were reduced to living in caves and spider holes. I'm certain the Obama team would come up with regulations dealing with that...

Sep 04, 2011
"Do you realize that Canada has played a role in Afghanistan?" - NumenTard

Yes, and that was a mistake.


Then why not be consistent and say "The world needs more dead [Canadians] in Afghanastan & Iraq"? Idiot.

Sep 04, 2011
"leftists policies are bankrupting the governments. These are facts." - NumenTard

Massive federal deficits started with Ronald Reagan, continued under George Bush Sr. and stopped under Clinton. They resumed under George Bush Jr. who ended his second term by pushing America into a second depression.

The economic failures of Europe have a similar pattern of conservative responsibility. Particularly in the U.K. due to the failed policies of Thatcher.



You conveniently left out that Obama more than quadrupled deficit spending over and above Bushes worse year,... in failed stimulus spending. You're far to irrational and dishonest to hold a discussion with,.... go away troll.

Sep 04, 2011
"Then why not be consistent and say "The world needs more dead [Canadians] in Afghanastan & Iraq"? Idiot." - NumenTard

Because the Canadian Military were not involved in America's war crime in Iraq.

You are completely clueless Tard aren't you?


Canadians were a valued ally in Afghanistan, so therefore you moronic and insulting statement should be mended.

Sep 04, 2011
"Canadians were a valued ally in Afghanistan," - NumenTard

And it was a mistake for Canada to be involved in that American Atrocity.


In your opinion, but the fact remains that they were and so logic would dictate that you should mend your previous slander,...i.e. then why not be consistent and say "The world needs more dead [Canadians] in Afghanastan"?

"American Atrocity"? All you anti-war dimwits are the same. War is bad, lets not do war [end of thought process].

Sep 04, 2011
1/6)I hate having to remind you shill-minded Republicans that it was your policy makers that started this mess in the first place, but here goes
First of all, it was deregulation of the banking industry by a Republican majority during a democratic presidents term that started the horrific sell-off of stocks in the fall of 2007. Oil market speculators rode the high of oil prices right up until they learned that a democrat would be entering the White House in Jan 2008. The market sell-off hit rock bottom the week before Obama moved into the White House, but deregulated of short sale (by a Republican-led Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)) in August 2007 (just days before the stock market started its four month plunge) ensured that oil speculators could ride their moneymakers from bottom to top, and then from top to bottom again.
That market decline occurred during the Bush administrations lame duck days, when a repentant Bush tried to cut off the subsidies to oil companies.

Sep 04, 2011
"American Atrocity"? All you anti-war dimwits are the same. War is bad, lets not do war [end of thought process].
War is for nimrods who lack diplomacy skills. Small wonder you seem to relish it. Of course with your hollowed-out libertarian dream state being realized, there's not much else to do besides stealing oil from little countries and embracing the new mercenary economy per your oligarch's desires.

Sep 04, 2011
2/6) Soon after Obama failed to cut off their moneymakers, oil prices rose again, but the housing market continued to decline.
It is no coincidence that high oil prices and high gasoline prices forced homeowners to choose between putting gas in their tanks so they could get to work, or paying down inflated mortgages. Working Americans chose gas in their tanks overwhelmingly. When their home loans were jeopardized a couple months later it was too late to choose their mortgage over their gas tank. The money was gone, eaten up by greedy oil companies.
The housing market bubble burst when deregulation allowed speculative bundling of low rated home loans with highly rated oil in Derivatives. When those derivatives were rated AAA by Standard and Poors, oil speculators snapped up the offered oil/home loan bundled stocks just prior to oil speculation insiders expertly planned and executed selloff prior to an expected democratic crackdown on oil futures speculation.

Sep 04, 2011
3/6) The crackdown didnt happen because Obama was furiously trying to correct mistakes made by the prior Republican administration. Remember that the first multi-trillion dollar bailout happened before Obama took office, you cant blame that on the current president. He was forced by Capitalism to bail out more free market Capitalists after he took office. Precedent had been set and he followed the wishes of the capitalist free market in bailing out Fannie and Freddie.
BTW, Standard and Poors is a wholly-owned subsidiary of McGraw Hill, the publishing conglomerate. The chairman, president, and chief executive office of McGraw Hill is Harold McGraw III, who also happens to be the chairman of the arch-conservative lobbying group known as "The Business Roundtable," which has been behind much of the conservative movements attack on liberal America.

Sep 04, 2011
4/6) Moody's, on the other hand, is a publicly-traded corporation, unlike Standard and Poors, and it's largest single shareholder, with 12% of the company's shares, is Berkshire Hathaway, Warren Buffett's company.
When Standard and Poors downgrades anything it is because they want a sell off stocks at reduced prices. They downgraded the housing/oil derivatives in 2007 to start the original recession, and now they have downgraded the USs democratic government to fuel the double dip recession. Their plan is to devalue our country until voters are forced to give in to Capitalistic greed through deregulation and corporate subsidies. (My guess is that stocks will rise sharply as soon as a Republican is elected president.)

Sep 04, 2011
5/6) BTW, You dont see any oil companies agreeing to forego their multi-billion dollar subsidies in a fit of patriotism. Of course not. They want the democratic government to fail so they can go back to buying off republican politicians with trips/parties/donation dinners. And it is no wonder that republicans want their corporate shills back in their piggy banks. They are being forced to cut out lucrative pork contracts in their home states because the government cant afford their stupid, highway-to-nowhere projects.

Sep 04, 2011
6/6) And why do multinational corporations want to cut out social security? Because it costs corporate America billions to maintain the system with employment taxes out of hard working Americans paychecks. If they dont have to pay social security funds into the system anymore, then they can lower wages. Wage earners will still get paychecks of the same amounts, but corporations will be shelling out less money for those wage earners. Lower wages = happy multinationals. They profit all around.

Sep 04, 2011
And why did Obama cave on the EPA regulations? Because he is a politician, and he knows on which side his bread is buttered. Republican fanaticism has taken hold in a majority of states. California and other important blue states are essentially crippled right now. Republican politics is about forcing his hand. If he doesnt allow a confrontation, he wins. If he can hold on to moderates he might have a fighting chance.

Sep 04, 2011
First of all, it was deregulation of the banking industry

What deregulation?
"Joseph A. Petrucelli is one of the most cautious bankers in America.

In fact, Petrucelli is so cautious that the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. recently criticized his bank for not lending enough.

The FDICs negative review of East Bridgewater Savings Banks loan volume is an anomaly in todays current banking scene as lenders reel from their role in offering too many cruddy mortgage products to borrowers with weak credit.

Still, the FDIC slapped East Bridgewater Savings with a rare needs to improve rating after evaluating the bank under the Community Reinvestment Act."http://www.bizjou...ry3.html

When you socialists base you analysis upon a false premise, your results are similarly false. GIGO.

Sep 04, 2011
California and other important blue states are essentially crippled right now.

Yes, because they are BLUE, aka socialist/'progressive'....
So the socialist Cin acknowledges the failure of socialism and advocates for MORE socialism? Is this not a definition of insanity?

Sep 04, 2011
BTW didn't anyone notice the EU spec for ozone is higher than the USA? Where is the outcry against the EU causing unneeded deaths?

Sep 04, 2011
the latest in a string of retreats by the president . . .

is belated recognition of the validity of President Eisenhower's 1961 warning about the danger to our free society from a "scientific-technological elite:"

www.youtube.com/w...ld5PR4ts


The right of the people to control their government was inadvertently sold out in 1971 by secret agreements between leaders of East and West to avoid the threat of mutual nuclear annihilation by:

a.) Uniting Nations,
b.) Reducing Nationalism,
c.) Ending the Arms and Space Races,
d.) Pretending Global Climate Change is our "Common Enemy", and
e.) Adopting the Bilderberg Model of the Sun as a Stable H-Fusion Reactor.

For four decades Left-Wing/Right Wing, Republicans/Democrats, Liberals/Conservatives dismantled the world's greatest economic, scientific, democratic system to achieve these noble goals.

http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

Sep 04, 2011
Sorry, I meant the SEC, Security and Exhange Commission, not the banking industry.

See fellas, that's how you admit when you are in error. No name calling needed.

But why are you singling out one small bank? Did I miss some momentous news since 2009?

Sep 04, 2011
California and other important blue states are essentially crippled right now.

Yes, because they are BLUE, aka socialist/'progressive'....
So the socialist Cin acknowledges the failure of socialism and advocates for MORE socialism? Is this not a definition of insanity?


I admit nothing of the kind. I believe in the democratic nature of our nation. The cover title of socialism is the work of rightwing capitalistic profiteers. There is such a thing as helping your fellow man, and looking out for your neighbor's well-being. Remember that Christian priciple? It is at the heart of the Republican dominated religions of this country.

Sep 04, 2011
Deregulation is not the same has selectively enforcing law.
For example, the current regime refuses to prosecute black on white crime, such as Black Panthers voter intimidation.
This is what happens corrupt socialist states. Those who pay the right bribe to the right politicians are protected, unless, of course, your business is not on the approved list.

Sep 04, 2011
There is such a thing as helping your fellow man, and looking out for your neighbor's well-being. Remember that Christian priciple?

How does rounding up a majority mob and stealing your neighbor's property a Christian principle?

Cin, one small bank is subject to FDIC REGULATIONS to promote the Community Reinvestment Act, as are ALL banks. What deregulation are you talking about?

Sep 04, 2011
Those who pay the right bribe to the right politicians are protected, unless, of course, your business is not on the approved list.

You state my case for me. Bribe the rightwing and the rightwing protects your business.
I didn state that I meant the SEC, not the banking industry. It is probably insider/offshore speculative trading that has gotten us into this mess, and it will take new laws against offshore trading by insiders that will get us out of it. At least, that is my opinion.

Sep 04, 2011
California and other important blue states are essentially crippled right now.

Yes, because they are BLUE, aka socialist/'progressive'....
So the socialist Cin acknowledges the failure of socialism and advocates for MORE socialism? Is this not a definition of insanity?

I don't think democracy has failed in any way. I think it has been hijacked by selfish pundits who are looking to line their pockets when big business gets their payoff.
Watch who you are calling insane. You are looking in a mirror. I thoroughly resent name calling of any kind, and because of that I refuse to debate with you any longer. Go stuff that in your mouth and swallow!

GDM
Sep 04, 2011
BRAVO Cin5456! ryggesogn2 purports to be christian, yet exhibits none of the christian attributes. He thinks "progressive" is an insult, yet to be progressive is to seek progress, to IMPROVE the human condition. I'll take that moniker. I suppose his goal is to be "regressive", going back to the time of the 1880's monopolistic corporations or the 1930's Fascist states like Germany and Italy. He thinks that being "liberal" is also an insult, yet christ was also liberal, eschewing wealth in favor of uplifting the poor. You will notice that he rarely expresses his own thoughts, but merely parrots the extreme views of others. He is simply a mindless tool for those who care nothing of him, nor of any christian beliefs. If he ever decides to actually think for himself, and use some logic, perhaps he will regain some semblance of intelligence. I am doubtful, however.

Sep 04, 2011
I don't think democracy has failed in any way. I think it has been hijacked by selfish pundits who are looking to line their pockets when big business gets their payoff.


For 40 years (1971-2011) Left-Wing/Right Wing, Republicans/Democrats, Liberals/Conservatives have dismantled the world's greatest economic, scientific, democratic system trying to achieve an unattainable goal:

Control Earth's Constantly Changing Climate

http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

Sep 04, 2011
How is it Christian to force others, at the point of the gun, to be 'charitable'?

The 'liberal' Soros and Buffet don't donate their wealth to the poor but instead support and advocate for the use of the govt to force others to 'donate'.

VOLUNTARY charitable acts DO uplift the giver and the receiver.

Using state power to force wealth redistribution and entitlement dependency subjugate the all, including the poor.

If 'liberal', 'progressive' policies uplifted the poor, why aren't the poor in Detroit or other bastions of socialism prospering?

All I demand of 'progressives' is evidence to support their claims their socialist policies uplift the poor. But then, what the 'progressive' really seeks is power, not prosperity for all.

Sep 04, 2011
Bribe the rightwing and the rightwing protects your business.

So the democrats are now 'rightwing'?
Buffet and Gates are 'rightwing'?
GE is 'rightwing'?
Wall Street is 'rightwing'?
It is the democratic party that has been rolling in cash from Wall Street and 'green' businesses. Enron was a big supporter of Clinton hoping to get Kyoto passed.
Those that support limited govt don't receive the corporate bribes because they want GE or GM to compete for their customers. No company is too big to fail.
The first major success of 'progressivism' was the creation of the FDA, supported by the large meat packers of the day to limit their competition.
It is easier to be a political entrepreneur than an economic entrepreneur. Power seeking politicians are more than eager to comply.


Sep 04, 2011
"Before free enterprise, society was based upon class, status, race, caste, power, and exploitation. Free markets and property rights elevate individuals above routine barbarism and destruction to the moral stature of traders."
"Politicians, on the other hand, trade in envy and resentment, and are always assuming the fruits of entrepreneurial creativity will somehow just always be there! This illustrates a lack of moral and economic understanding. There are categorical differences between looters stealing for a living and the genuine creators of wealth. "
"Today, for instance, the anti-trust laws make every business pricing decision illegal. With arbitrary law, everything is illegal"
"Unlimited prosperity and opportunity allows every human to fulfill their deepest values in the peace of social harmony."
http://www.acton....terprise

Sep 04, 2011
First of all, let's not discuss objectivism as you clearly don't understand the first thing about it...
Of course I know objectivism is proof of Russian superiority over uncultured American nimrods, who will compromise any principle for opportunism.

Sep 04, 2011
Right-ring libertarian Internet tea party trolls are paid to dumb down online conversations: http://current.co...ions.htm

Sep 04, 2011
"Before free enterprise, society was based upon class, status, race, caste, power, and exploitation. Free markets and property rights elevate individuals above routine barbarism and destruction to the moral stature of traders."


There is still no such thing as "free enterprise". The economy is a scale-free network that follows the power law "them that has, gets" Society is still based on class, status, race, caste, power, and exploitation. Is society comprised only of "moral" traders? Was Love Canal in upper NY State created by "moral traders" for the betterment of their fellow man or out of their own avarice?


Sep 04, 2011
Love Canal was created as a safe place to store hazardous waste that was a byproduct of products people wanted and needed to buy.
Hooker knew their products needed to be stored safely and proceeded to do so by placing the material in impermeable canal with a 4' impermeable clay cap.
Had EPA standards existed at the time, they would have met those standards.
It was a greedy local city govt and greedy local teachers that wanted to build a new school and build houses to increase there tax base which forced Hooker to sell Love Canal to the city. It was the city that proceeded to disturb and disburse the toxic waste.
Hooker Chemical WAS responsible because they knew they were liable as long as they owned Love Canal and out of 'avarice' they wanted to keep that waste from causing harm to others.
It was the city that out of avarice of increasing their tax base polluted their citizens and city.

Sep 04, 2011
Too much labeling and not enough definition going on in these endless arguments about liberal vs democrat. Those names are just labels and do not define what the politicians actually stand for. Politicians are people and after all the compromises they make to get elected to parties that are all influenced by money then they may as well be the same party for all it means to me.

Of course, unscrupulous people will attempt to advance their personal lot at the expense of others. Regulation is supposed to limit that, but corruption bay be used to do the opposite.

Regardless of capitalist or socialist it is corruption that is the main problem. And if money talks then corruption is possible.

Sep 04, 2011
"Politicians, on the other hand, trade in envy and resentment, and are always assuming the fruits of entrepreneurial creativity will somehow just always be there! This illustrates a lack of moral...understanding.
It is the democratic party that has been rolling in cash from Wall Street
Enron was a big supporter of Clinton hoping to get Kyoto passed.

Again you make my point about right wing politicians. They know no form of compromise, no form of actual political wisdom. They only latch onto one point that will help a certain business and sit on it. That makes them petty, government policy thieves and proves they are not deserving of the seats they hold.
Warren Buffet in 2006 made the largest every donation to charity, and last year gave away over 1.93 billion to charities.
Enron supported Kyoto because the expected to benefit from cap and trade of pollution credits from South America. Their ultimate goal was to keep the oil flowing through their accounts.

Sep 04, 2011
Regardless of capitalist or socialist it is corruption that is the main problem.


You are exactly right.

Eisenhower warned of the dangers to our free society in 1961 if a "scientific-technological elite" ever took control of public policy.

www.youtube.com/w...ld5PR4ts

That apparently happened in 1971, when secret agreements were made to avoid the threat of mutual nuclear annihilation by making anthropogenic climate change the world's "common enemy" and pretending Earth's heat source is a steady H-fusion reactor in order to:

a.) Unite Nations,
b.) Reduce Nationalism,
c.) End the Space and Arms Race

http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

Obama's acknowledgment that CO2 is gaseous plant food, not a dangerous air pollutant, is the step back toward reality in forty (40) years!

Unfortunately, economic recovery will be slow.

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo

Sep 05, 2011
Warren Buffet in 2006 made the largest every donation to charity,

He still has billions and demands taxes be raised.
Why hasn't he donated ALL is wealth?
Why not follow in the footsteps of Chuck Feeney?
"In 1982, he established The Atlantic Foundation, the first and by far the largest of The Atlantic Philanthropies. In 1984, the Foundation received all of the Feeney interests in Duty Free Shoppers. At first operating anonymously, Atlantic has made grants totalling more than $5.5 billion as of December 2010."
"While he already transferred virtually all of his and his familys asset over 25 years ago, "
"Today, Mr. Feeney owns neither a home nor a car. He still travels constantlyin economy classand is well known for wearing a $15 watch."
http://www.atlant...-founder
I haven't heard Feeney advocating for higher taxes like Buffet.

If not for capitalism and free markets people like Buffet, Gates, Feeney, Carnegie, Ford could not have donated billions.

Sep 05, 2011
They know no form of compromise,

So what level of evil are socialists willing to compromise? History has shown there are no limits to the compromises socialists will make: millions murdered, starved, tortured.
The present left wing Obama regime has compromised people's livelihoods keeping millions unemployed and blocking the creation and expansion of wealth creating enterprises.
They have compromised national security by alienating allies and encouraging our enemies.
Is this the kind of compromise left wing politicians support?
How about ignoring black on white violence or allowing illegal aliens to rape and kill without prosecution? I guess compromised need to be made to keep left wing voters.

Sep 05, 2011
Atlantic Philanthropies:
"The ultimate goal is to generate sustainable scientific progress and improve health care for disadvantaged and vulnerable people. These efforts include the development of human vaccines for dengue fever, animal vaccines to prevent slaughters of herds from epidemics, establishment of advanced neurological imaging facilities and collaboration on nursing projects to tackle skills shortages."

How about that. They support health care, education, and scientific advancement. All causes that the capitalists are in favor of cutting. You found a good one.

Compromise is not in and of itself evil. Neither is it exclusively socialist or captialist.
It is the naysayers of DC who support wealth growth for the highest one percent of American capitalists. Those wealth gatherers do nothing to bring more jobs to the market place. They pocket the profits and demand more. When the market is up, who keeps the money? When the market is down, who loses their jobs?

Sep 05, 2011
Great news from NASA today!

"NASA To Provide New Observations About Solar Flares That Can Impact Earth"

www.irishweathero...026.html

Oliver

Sep 05, 2011
Vendicar: "The problems started when Corporations gained enough political control over the nation "

Well guess what, dumbass: corporations only arise because of government interference in markets, so morons like you caused that too.

Sep 05, 2011
everything to do with the police shooting of a young guy in London.

Really?
That may be the excuse given by the 'progressives'.
"disgruntled youth across the country have shown they're ready for a riot and whatever status and material objects their disobedience may confer on them.
""They are making a rational calculation that they can go out and do this," he says. "They see on television and the Internet people looting shops, going in and walking out with new mobile phones and flat-screen TVs. And no one is stopping them."
"The issue, sociologists say, is not that youth are unemployed. It's that they're unoccupied and therefore more likely to loiter on the streets and in shopping centers, and to get wrapped up in the madness of rebellion.

Read more: http://www.time.c...X52FlJ9Z


Sep 05, 2011
Regulation is supposed to limit that, but corruption bay be used to do the opposite.

How is regulation supposed to limit corruption? Regulation is called positive law. It imposes the will of some politician upon most for the benefit of a select few.
Contrast this with negative law that protects everyone's individual right to property equally.


Regardless of capitalist or socialist it is corruption that is the main problem.

The Regulatory State is a corrupt system. End the Regulatory State and there will be fewer opportunities for corruption.

Sep 05, 2011
"if law were restricted to protecting all persons, all
liberties, and all properties; if law were nothing more than the
organized combination of the individuals right to self defense; if
law were the obstacle, the check, the punisher of all oppression
and plunderis it likely that we citizens would then argue much
about the extent of the franchise?"
"imagine that this fatal principle has
been introduced: Under the pretense of organization, regulation,
protection, or encouragement, the law takes property from
one person and gives it to another; the law takes the wealth of all
and gives it to a fewwhether farmers, manufacturers,
shipowners, artists, or comedians. Under these circumstances,
then certainly every class will aspire to grasp the law, and logically so. "
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from
its true purposethat it may violate property instead of protecting
itthen everyone will want to participate in making the law,"
Basiat, The Law.

Sep 05, 2011
"But how is this legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply.
See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them,
and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if
the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing
what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime.
Then abolish this law without delay, for it is not only an evil
itself, but also it is a fertile source for further evils because it
invites reprisals. If such a lawwhich may be an isolated case
is not abolished immediately, it will spread, multiply, and
develop into a system."
The Law.

This is now our system JSA. The system is a corruption of law.

"The presentday delusion is an attempt to enrich everyone at the expense of everyone else;"
Present day was over 150 years ago. The US did not heed Bastiat's warnings.

Sep 05, 2011
"Here I encounter the most popular fallacy of our times. It
is not considered sufficient that the law should be just; it must be
philanthropic. Nor is it sufficient that the law should guarantee
to every citizen the free and inoffensive use of his faculties for
physical, intellectual, and moral self-improvement. Instead, it is
demanded that the law should directly extend welfare, education,
and morality throughout the nation.
This is the seductive lure of socialism."
"These two uses of the law are in direct contradiction to each
other. We must choose between them. A citizen cannot at the
same time be free and not free."
The Law.

Sep 05, 2011
Walter E. Williams, George Mason economist:
"If Bastiat were alive today, he would be disappointed with
our failure to keep the law within its proper domain. Over the
course of a century and a half, we have created more than 50,000
laws. Most of them permit the state to initiate violence against
those who have not initiated violence against others. These laws
range from anti-smoking laws for private establishments and
Social Security contributions to licensure laws and minimum
wage laws. In each case, the person who resolutely demands and
defends his God-given right to be left alone can ultimately suffer
death at the hands of our government."
"Americans share an awesome burden and moral responsibility. If liberty dies in the United States, it is destined to die everywhere."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf

Sep 05, 2011
""To be honest, I think at the moment its mainly to do with looting. A majority of people are just looting to loot, with no reason, just because they want to do it. Simple as that, said Lopez.

Lopez said she does not condone the violence, but understands and shares the pent up anger many of her young neighbors feel about a lack of job opportunities and cuts in government funding to youth services. "
"But there are pockets of our society that are not just broken, but frankly sick."
http://www.voanew...248.html

Sep 05, 2011
"But locals and commentators warn that high levels of long-term and youth unemployment and cuts in services like youth centers in places like Haringey the borough where Tottenham sits are creating a tinder box for unrest. "
"Prospects for the unemployed especially those with limited qualifications are unlikely to improve soon, meaning conditions are ripe for a repeat of Saturday's unrest in areas with high unemployment and dense populations.

Britain's economy has barely grown over the past 9 months, and economists polled by Reuters see growth of just 1.3 percent for 2011 as a whole, rising to 2.0 percent in 2012."
http://www.msnbc....LNo7zOSo

Sep 05, 2011
Those wealth gatherers do nothing to bring more jobs to the market place. They pocket the profits and demand more. When the market is up, who keeps the money? When the market is down, who loses their jobs?
Put simply, greed is not an admirable attribute and hoarding hurts the economy. Yet these are the two most cherished tenants of Randoid objectivism. I'm sure our resident paid shills will reply with something irrelevant.

Sep 05, 2011
Yet these are the two most cherished tenants of Randoid objectivism.

BS.

Sep 05, 2011


"It is incredible that so many of our public servants have to pay a private organization just for the privilege to work in the public sector.

And despite the resulting budget deficits and a public that demands greater accountability from their government, Big Labor operatives have made their position clear: No concessions, no compromise and no surrender.

Read more: http://dailycalle...X5HkcNki
"

Again you make my point about right wing politicians. They know no form of compromise, no form of actual political wisdom.

But left wing labor unions are wise and compromise?

Sep 05, 2011
Unions have been negotiating for better wages and benefits for their members for over 50 years at the bargaining table with hardline capitalists. It is wage earners who keep factories and other job-rich organizations going, you know. Without unions women would still be working for pennies on the dollar like they do in China. Without unions, scholarship collectives would not allow for retraining of out-of-work middle management from the last few decades.
Unions do understand compromise and they understand the selfish profit-minded corporation collectives that lobby Washington with millions of dollars they collected from the pockets of the employees by lowering wages and benefits like job related health insurance.
I have never been a member of a union. I do think they made fantastic strides in helping mine workers and textile workers get better hours and help with the health care costs incurred because their jobs affected their health adversely.
Yes, they are wise in their own way.

Sep 05, 2011
"12 more American terrorists were murdered in Iraq this weekend. More will soon follow them into death. The more dead americans in Iraq the better." - NoumenTard

Don't you agree NoumenTard?

There is a price to be paid for war crimes.

"The world needs more dead americans in Afghanastan & Iraq" - NoumenTard

As true today as the day it was written.
And I agree that Canada needs it's own 9/11 to perhaps relieve some naive cannuks of their insipid complacency. Alas, no tall buildings in Canada. Only igloos.

Sep 05, 2011
Lest I forget, I think unions that organized police, fire and education services are essential to keeping our country safe, and keeping our children in school. Without public schools, the majority of Americans would be illiterate dependents living on the streets and in perpetual slums. I think the benefits of our police and fire departments speak for themselves. Recent layoffs of police around the country are what make riots more of a threat, and keep lawlessness climbing.

Sep 05, 2011
NASA video recordings of changes in the Sun - from its quietest period in years to the activity marking the beginning of solar cycle 24

www.irishweathero...26.html/

Will provide observations needed to determine the validity of:

a.) The Standard Solar Model (SSM) of Sun
b.) Model of CO2 Global Warming (AGW)

Many fields of science astronomy, astrophysics, climatology, cosmology, nuclear, particle, planetary and solar sciences have been seriously compromised [1] since it was decided on 1971 [2] that Earths heat source is a steady H-fusion reactor (SSM model) that cannot cause climate change (AGW model).

1. Neutron Repulsion, The APEIRON Journal, in press (2011)
http://arxiv.org/...2.1499v1

2. Deep Roots of Climategate (2011)
http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo

Sep 05, 2011
Unions have been negotiating for better wages and benefits for their members for over 50 years at the bargaining table with hardline capitalists.

City, state, and federal governments are hardline capitalists?
FDR did not support unionization of govt employees and neither did the union bosses at the time.
Without public schools, the majority of Americans would be illiterate dependents living on the streets and in perpetual slums

That is happening now WITH union, govt schools.
Socialist Sweden has a voucher system. Students can take their voucher to dozens of schools.
Why don't university professors unionize?

The police union in MA forces cities to provide police details when any work is performed on a road. The electric company must pay for a police officer to direct traffic if they are parked on the side of a road for some maintenance. In most other parts of the county, a min. wage flagman does the job.

Sep 05, 2011
"Gov. Deval L. Patrick said he is forging ahead with plans to chip away at one of the most closely
defended police perks in Massachusetts: paid details at roadside construction sites.
Patrick said his administration is working on new regulations that would open the door to replacing some of the police
details by hiring civilians, equipping them with orange safety vests and flags and training them to direct traffic,
especially on secondary roads."
"No state law mandates that police officers protect workers at road construction sites, but the practice has become
commonplace and been fiercely protected by police unions. Some communities have labor contracts requiring that
police staff construction sites."
http://www.massch...tion.pdf

Sep 05, 2011
University professors do have unions.
"The UAW is the union of choice for more than 40,000 workers at Americas colleges and universities."

Anyone who wants more dead people ought to be publicly whipped. It is fanatics like jihadists and generals who declared their intent to wipe out whole populations by any means who have no regard for the value of humanity. Where has the value of life gone in todays world? Peoples lives are becoming less valued all over the world. We hardly blink when only ten men are killed on any given day in the war, but if 26 die in one incident we get all up in arms. Why not be concerned for those ten, or those five, or that one who was a father, a brother, and a husband and who died needlessly?

Sep 05, 2011
What was this article about again? Oh yeah, so to sum up, without government regulation, corporations will kill for profit, even though there are humans comprising those very same corps. Even though they pay lip service to the sanctity of life.
So the kneejerk "government as evil" slogan doesn't doesn't necessarily hold water, at least nothing thats drinkable.

Sep 05, 2011
What unions hath wrought:
"Even as Boston police officials laid off cadets and cut popular units like the mounted patrol, some police officers managed to dramatically boost their paychecks last year, in a few cases to more than a quarter of a million dollars."
"Some of the officers earned extra cash because contracts require that officers working a detail or testifying in court be paid for a minimum of four hours. In one case, a lieutenant was paid for four hours after 15 minutes of case preparation.

All of the officers benefited from a retroactive, one-time salary boost under a new police contract. And all worked a lot of overtime."
"The salaries are excessive, Police Commissioner Edward F. Davis said in an interview. Clearly the average person on the street does not make this kind of money. Were completely aware that this is a difficult topic to discuss, but its a function of a system thats been in place for decades."
http://www.boston...rticles/

Sep 05, 2011
So, the Boston system is an old-boy-network that has been in place since the 1800's. I can understand how there might be need for reform in that case. But the wanton layoffs that are taking place in California are putting our cities and citizens at risk.

Sep 05, 2011
So, the Boston system is an old-boy-network that has been in place since the 1800's. I can understand how there might be need for reform in that case. But the wanton layoffs that are taking place in California are putting our cities and citizens at risk.

The 'progressives' brought this upon themselves. It is poetic justice Brown is now governor. He can now try to fix the problems he caused the first time he was governor.

Sep 05, 2011
Tales from the Regulatory State:

"As with a previous set of raids in 2009, Henry Juszkiewicz, CEO of Nashville-based Gibson, said at a news conference last week that authorities wouldn't even tell him what the heck they were investigating, but they have suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers may be "illegal" under some U.N. edict."
"During the 2009 Gibson raid, authorities seized guitars and "ebony fingerboard blanks from Madagascar." The feds are still holding the wood seized at that time, though no criminal charges have ever been filed."
"Each day of non-production costs the firm a million dollars.

Maybe he can make it up with some layoffs."
http://www.lvrj.c...373.html


Sep 05, 2011
That's an example of Mercantilism not Socialism, marjon.

Sep 05, 2011
That's an example of Mercantilism not Socialism, marjon.

Mercantilism is govt control of private property, aka socialism.

GDM
Sep 05, 2011
CIN5456: don't bother trying to reason with ryggesogn2, or worry about what "scores" he and his many alter egos give to people of reason. To paraphrase a line from an old tv show: What ryggesogn2 says is unimportant." He produces nothing but spam, no intelligent thought there. He is oblivious to history and spouts only the propaganda that he thinks will buy him respect at the table of his keepers. Poor fool. I only hope he doesn't go off in some easily predictable psycopathic rage against humanity like some many of his ilk have done in the past.

Sep 05, 2011
"It is to be pointed out, however, that protectionism,
socialism, and communism are basically the same plant in three
different stages of its growth. All that can be said is that legal
plunder is more visible in communism because it is complete plunder; and in protectionism because the plunder is limited to
specific groups and industries.* Thus it follows that, of the three
systems, socialism is the vaguest, the most indecisive, and, consequently, the most sincere stage of development."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf

"What is the best, time-proved method to make sure resources such as wood lots are not overutilized, threatening their ability to regenerate? Private ownership. Private owners have a vested interest in making sure the resources will still be there for their children and grandchildren, which is why private timber companies tend to re-plant their acreage."
http://www.lvrj.c...373.html

Sep 05, 2011
This is cool:

"And that is why, despite all the political obstacles, Europe appears to be inching closer to a more centralized fiscal union that would eventually turn the euro zone into something resembling a United States of Europe."
http://www.nytime...ion.html

-Perhaps they will ask canada to join? No wait - canada will soon belong to a Greater America...
http://en.wikiped...an_Union

-Guess we'll need a new national anthem. With smaller words. C'est dommage.

Sep 05, 2011
We will need to put 'eh?' after every verse. At least they will rhyme. Eh?
http://www.youtub...Vspgy184

Sep 05, 2011
"No longer were privileges to be limited to the few, as under the old mercantilism. No, now privileges and favors were for all. The Age of Democratized Privilege had arrived. The new mercantilism was born. And unfortunately, it now permeates the Western world.

More and more people are dependent upon governmental spending of one form or another for significant portions of their income. And what government does not furnish directly, it provides indirectly through its industrial regulations, price and production controls and occupational licensing procedures. "
http://www.fff.or...291b.asp (1991)

Sounds like socialism: state control of private property.

Sep 05, 2011
Is this an example of 'left wing compromise'?
"They've got a war, they got a war with us and there's only going to be one winner. It's going to be the workers of Michigan, and America. We're going to win that war," Jimmy Hoffa Jr. said to a heavily union crowd.

"President Obama, this is your army. We are ready to march. Let's take these son of bitches out and give America back to an America where we belong," Hoffa added."
http://www.realcl...out.html

A cornered, wounded animal is the most dangerous.

Sep 05, 2011
But canada will still be making valuuabel contributions to future space programs, eh?
http://www.youtub...e=relmfu

-Which is good to know. Unless the queen says they cant do it eh? C'est dommage to that eh? 'In space no one can hear you cut one', because youve got a space suit on, eh? They must have anti-fart systems in those things so's you dont assfixiate yourself in there, just in case eh?

Sep 06, 2011
My eys glazed over all the heated exchanges of policies, rehtorics and ideologies here. It is most apparent that a so deep schism are dividing the once great country. Americans have lost the fortitude, drive for sacrifice and hard work that made USA the superpower during and after WW2. For the good of the country is so much spitting worthless saliva these days. They are burrowing their heads in denials or along party lines. Wake up, America, you have so much potential. Don't waste it and go the way of Rome.

Sep 06, 2011
The continuous drip, drip, drip of VD yet he still won't defend socialism. Why won't he try?

Sep 06, 2011
After the breakup of the United States, it is most likely the Liberal states bordering Canada will join in an economic union with Canada, and largely adopt Canadian Values and attitudes that the generally echo today.
Unions are getting larger not smaller. North America will soon be one big happy thing, just like Europa. Where will the capital be? Detroit?

Sep 06, 2011
the want of something for nothing.

That is the motto of the 'progressive' is it not?

Sep 06, 2011
If physorg came back and deleted all the off-topic comments, this thread would be nearly wiped out. wow, get a grip guys.

So, back on topic:

The move by the President might be more clever than it seems on the surface.

By backing off from the stricter standard, it takes away an easy target for the GOP/Teaparty to fight him over. It may hurt him a little in the short term, but the election is still more than a year away. In the long term it takes amunition away from his enemies.

This also makes it easier to re-enact the higher standard after the election, should Obama win another term. If he leaves the high standard in place and there is a successful move against it from the GOP, then it's very difficult to raise the standard back up later.

The final reason this might be a logical decision is that sometimes you need to pick your battles. The EPA has a lot on its plate and faces budget cuts. Can't do everything when money is limited. Gotta prioritize.

Sep 06, 2011
My eyes glazed over all the heated exchanges of policies, rhetorics and ideologies. It is most apparent that so deep schisms are dividing the once great country. Americans have lost the fortitude, drive for sacrifice and hard work that made USA the superpower during and after WW2. For the good of the country is so much spitting worthless saliva these days. They are burrowing their heads in denials or along party lines. Wake up, America, you have so much potential. Don't waste it and go the way of Rome.


I share your concerns and regret damage to social institutions as reality replaces dogma.

Society must accept that their existence, their past and their future - as well as those of Al Gore, Barack Obama, and the Bilderberg group - have been and will be decided by nuclear forces [1-3] these "leaders" ignored.

1. http://dl.dropbox...5079.pdf
2. http://arxiv.org/...2.1499v1
3. http://journalofc...102.html

Oliver K. Manuel

Sep 06, 2011
It is also true that EPA regulations have initial implementation costs with savings of money and lives coming later.


True, but I'll re-state the need for priorties. If you only have a certain amount of money to spend, it is best to spend it where you'll get the biggest result. I would say that increased smog standards are probably not the most cost effective demand right now. The existing standards here in the US are way better than where we were 50 years ago. We did just increase vehicle mileage standards, which is way more significant. Slow but steady progress isn't a bad way to go. The money and time not spent on smog might save more lives and money if it is spent on heart disease and/or healthy food standards, for example. Smog is far from the biggest health risk in the US right now.

Sep 06, 2011
continued:

If we re-frame the discussion in terms of where the money is most needed, it changes the picture greatly. What do we need most? Cleaner water, safer oil wells, safer mining, forest preservation, wetlands preservation, endangered species, medical care for at-risk children, federal highway maintenance, safer nuclear power, more renewable energy, descrimination in the workplace, highschool dropout rates in minorities, teenage pregnancy, cancer research, theoretical science, foreign aid, homeland security, etc. There are more places to spend money than there is money to spend right now. I don't think the above mentioned lawsuit by the ALA is productive either. Nobody wins but the lawyers there.

Sep 06, 2011
"California Republicans and Democrats alike said they would prefer their leaders stick to their guns when it comes to core issues rejecting tax hikes for Republicans, avoiding cuts to Social Security and Medicare for Democrats even if concessions are needed to tame the federal deficit or lure the other side out of its ideological corner.

Republicans preferred the hard-line stance, 50% to 35%, and Democrats concurred by an even larger ratio, 57% to 32%."
http://www.latime...74.story
Those democrats really want to compromise!

Sep 06, 2011
I would say that increased smog standards are probably not the most cost effective demand right now.

EPA does not care about cost effectiveness, by law.
Demanding the benefits of government

We are not receiving the benefits of govt: protection of private property. What we are getting from govt is plunder.

Sep 06, 2011
The continuous drip, drip, drip of VD yet he still won't defend socialism. Why won't he try?
Hey let me try eh? In socialism everybody gets a BMW but theyre all black.

Hey I was thinking that canada was like the back bacon of countries eh? See they had this continent and they carved a pretty decent country out of it, but they had all these bits and pieces left over.

'What do we do with this big chunk up here eh?' they said. 'Well lets fry it up and see what it tastes like.' somebody said. So they named it canada, after the bacon of the same name eh?

Sep 06, 2011
I don't mean to take sides in the socialism versus capitalism debate, but what does ozone regulation have to do with socialism? It's just another regulation, like saying that you can't dump radioactive waste in your back yard, though way less important to anybody except the most extreme political pundits. If you are arguing about this, then you are probably a member of a very small minority point of view. The decision was made by the President. It's done. He's a Democrat and liberal. He is advised by the top people money can buy. It's not about what is best in an election year, especially in an economic slump. When things get serious, the agendas go out the window. Special interest groups only get what they want when other things aren't more important, and elections and budgets are more important.

Sep 06, 2011
I usually vehemently disagree with vendicar, so when you see me agreeing with him and giving him 5/5 multiple times, you should know that you are way out in tin foil hat land. Just saying.

To VD:

It's nice to see that someone here is willing to set aside thier agenda and just talk straight. I'm surprised and glad to see that it is you fora change. lol. Just joking. I'm with you on this one. They are going all Foxnews/Limbaugh on us. :(

Sep 06, 2011
to Otto:

What the heck was that last post supposed to mean? Have you lost your meds or is English your second language? I'm seriously clueless about what that post was trying to say. Do you mean Kevin Bacon? That might make more sense. :(

I'll refrain from rating that comment until you translate it into English.

Sep 06, 2011
what does ozone regulation have to do with socialism?

That depends if you believe all regulatory agencies don't have a political agenda.
History has shown that when the 'progressives' can't get their way legislatively, they will resort to fiat or court order.

Sep 06, 2011
Swifty, why do you suppose any regulatory agency is smarter and knows more than the people and property they are regulating?
Once you start down the slippery slope of 'preventive' law, nothing is off the table. This is socialism.
Now if the govt acted as a true, third party judge of property violations, then the only participants are the offender and the offended. The govt would not consider benefit or injury to society. A power plant that pollutes your air would need to compensate your injury or shut down.
Love Canal has been raised many times. Hooker Chemical sealed its toxic waste in a safe manner long before EPA regulations.
When industry groups can bend the ear of politicians that their industry and their pollution are critical for national economic power (not individual prosperity), then they can be allowed to pollute and injure in for the sake of perceived national or societal benefit.

Sep 06, 2011
I don't know why but, suddenly, I want to discuss declining I.Q. LEVELS with a blue ribbon SENATE SUB-COMMITTEE!

Sep 07, 2011
Swifty, why do you suppose any regulatory agency is smarter and knows more than the people and property they are regulating?


Straw man. I didn't say that, and I don't think that. Argue with or against what I actually said.

Any political ethos can become a slippery slope. Extremes without checks and balances are bad in any form. Is there a form of government that hasn't been corrupted? As long as humans have a part, there will be corrupt humans, and corruption of the systems. It's about people, and everyone has weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

to howhot:

I strangely find myself agreeing with you now too. The above comments are surely as productive as the average committee.

Sep 07, 2011
I didn't say that, and

Yes you did. You said, "it's just another regulation". Implying what's the big deal. Implying you prefer and accept the Regulatory State.

I see VD, like a good little socialist, believes people are mindless bacteria needing central planning and control.


Sep 07, 2011
to Otto:

What the heck was that last post supposed to mean? Have you lost your meds or is English your second language? I'm seriously clueless about what that post was trying to say. Do you mean Kevin Bacon? That might make more sense. :(

I'll refrain from rating that comment until you translate it into English.
I'm like having issues with the canadian VD and his attitudes about the country which is enabling his attitudes to exist eh? Im sure itll pass like a case of molson soon enough.
http://www.youtub...Jqd2h0Yg

-Notice how the amerrikin saves the day?

Oh hey - I see the problem. I was like speaking canadian eh?
http://www.youtub...t2c5cDfo


Sep 07, 2011
Swifty, why do you suppose any regulatory agency is smarter and knows more than the people and property they are regulating?

Straw man. I didn't say that, and I don't think that. Argue with or against what I actually said


Yes you did. You said, "it's just another regulation". Implying what's the big deal. Implying you prefer and accept the Regulatory State


No, you are taking my comment out of context and you added a bunch of garbage of your own. Now you are claiming that you know what I'm thinking and I do not know what I am thinking.

Here's what I said:

what does ozone regulation have to do with socialism? It's just another regulation, like saying that you can't dump radioactive waste in your back yard


So, I'm a socialist nazi because I don't want nuclear waste in my yard? Wow. I'm speechless.

Sep 07, 2011
Like you said, it is just another regulation. Why not regulate away all ozone and all other pollution. It's just another regulation.

Sep 07, 2011
Back on topic:

A technical point about ozone. Ozone itself is only a mild irritant, even in relatively high concentrations. It's used in water treatment, fruit and grain processing, pest control, etc. It's way more environmentally friendly than alternatives like bleach or caustic soda. I wonder if the above planned regulations made exception for the use of ozone in those cases where it is the lesser of evils.

Sep 07, 2011
A topic is the philosophy of positive law, aka regulation.
If the 'experts', EPA, can be superseded by executive order, why waste money on the EPA?

Sep 07, 2011
". According to a recent study by the Political and Economic Risk Consultancy, for instance, Hong Kong has the world's least regulated business environment, which helps it attract capital from around the world. The United Nations ranks Hong Kong as one of the places in the world with the highest levels of human development based on life expectancy, literacy, education and high standards of living. That doesn't sound all that bad for workers."
http://www.realcl...236.html

Sep 07, 2011
"Clearly then, the conscience of the social democrats cannot
permit persons to have any liberty because they believe that the
nature of mankind tends always toward every kind of degradation
and disaster. Thus, of course, the legislators must make
plans for the people in order to save them from themselves."
"The organizers
maintain that society, when left undirected, rushes headlong to
its inevitable destruction because the instincts of the people are
so perverse."
"Apparently, then, the legislators and the organizers have received from Heaven an intelligence and virtue that place them beyond and above mankind"
"the inhabitants of the nation are to remain completely passive... the people should have no prejudices, no affections, and no desires except those authorized by the legislator."
"Socialists Want Forced Conformity"
"The Socialists Despise Mankind"
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf

Sep 07, 2011
R2, I can't stand biting my tongue any longer. When America's forefathers established the constitution and gave the citizens their bill of rights, no where did it establish an economic system. The government provides the base -- the LEVEL PLAYING FIELD -- on which capitalism work. Regulation is part of that process.

You can not have capitalism without regulation. It leads to abuse and just as monarchism lead to abuses of the peasants, so will capitalism abuse what it can. Since the industrial revolution (Ford, Chrysler...) and the invention of Multi-national corporations capitalism has changed, and so has the role of government(s) internationally.

Your anti socialism tweets are meaningless when compared to massive wealth and power moved and possesed by the multinationals. It's not big government that controls your life my friend. See the Government is "We the People".


Sep 07, 2011
Regulation is part of that process.

The US Constitution LIMITS the power of the federal govt. They were called ENUMERATED POWERS.
The Constitution WAS an economic document in that it opened free trade among the states.
"No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State."

You can not have capitalism without regulation.

Of course not. Market participants always regulate the market.

What multinational power? Any piss ant govt, like Venezuela, can nationalize the assets of any company. What is the company going to do about it? Hire an army and invade?

The government provides the base -- the LEVEL PLAYING FIELD -- on which capitalism work

How does leveling the playing field make capitalism work? Should the govt level the NFL playing field?
The govt should protect the property rights of all, equally, and not play favorites, like bailing out GM or giving tax money to bankrupt solar companies.

Sep 07, 2011
What does 'level the playing field' mean?

Should the govt punish success and reward failure? Should the govt force Apple to 'share' its technology so other companies can have some success too?

That's what the railroad association did in Atlas Shrugged. The owners agreed not to compete with each other. What happened? Same thing that happened to AMTRAK, lousy and limited service.

Sep 07, 2011
R2, if your a citizen of the USA, then you should realize that in the "We the People" includes you as well as me. In other words, it means that WE have to work together, WE are the government. That is why we vote!

That's from high school civics. So no you are wrong that "Market participants regulate the market". They do not; "We the People" do.

And let me add, Thank God because if citizen politicians did not regulate, America would be one large giant strip mine.




Sep 07, 2011
R2, you know exactly what I mean by "Level the playing field" and regulation. It's like rules in sports. The game could not be played without them, hate them as much as we do at times. I can not think of a simpler way of putting it. It's the fact that "We the People" make the rules that makes our Democracy so vibrant.

Without it, what's left is anarchy rule, feudalism, or totalitarianism. None of those are good choices for you or me.

Sep 08, 2011
It's not big government that controls your life my friend. See the Government is "We the People


Yes!!

I take pride in paying my taxes and being part of OUR society. It is reasonable to expect the people in charge to spen that tax money responsibly, and it is reasonable to expect some of them to be corrupt. That is reality. In fact, I want a few wolves in my pasture along with all us sheep. When we catch the wolves eating sheep, we can throw them in jial. That's the laws of OUR community. I'm proud to be part of it.

Sep 08, 2011
OH GOSH!! the world is broken. Now I'm agreeing with hohot. lol.

Good lord, this isn't complicated. Get off your soapbox and use your beain guys.

Sep 08, 2011
Either way, if you want to espouse your extreme political views then go find a political site to spam. Try Fox or MSNBC. Three's plenty of people there who will be happy to talk about your problems.

This story is about ozone. The real issue is smog.

Sep 08, 2011
G7; what did I say something wrong? No, I agree with you my man! It's a damn smog regulation at a time when there is more need for industry. However if industry abuses that lack of regulation; we can put it back on very quickly.

That said, in my home town, we had a bad ozone problem; it was not solved until EPA regulations mandated our city clean it's air. It was expensive, but the corporations paid it, because it was a clean city with good workers.

Sep 08, 2011
Hottie, should the govt step in and 'level the playing field' for Yahoo?
"Why is a company that owns some of the world's most widely used online services unable to gain traction among Web surfers, advertisers and investors? Can the company that rode the Internet boom ever again be where the cool kids go?"

I see from the above, Hottie did not define 'level the playing field'. What are the limits? I hear the private, Kelo property condemned in New Haven, CT, that was turned over to a private developer, with millions in federal funding, now sits, leveled, empty. At least if the lady's house was there, the city could be collecting some taxes. Now, only leveled property. Is this how you define 'level the playing field'?

Sep 08, 2011
And Switfy, this discussion does pertain to ozone regulation. You apparently trust the regulators. Why?
And why can the president, by executive order, stop a regulation?
The system of positive law is broken and will always be subject to corruption and influence peddling.
And that is what the 'progressives' want, control.

Sep 08, 2011
"An 1895 New York law limited bakery employees to working 10 hours a day and 60 hours a week. Ostensibly, this was health and safety legislation; actually, it was rent-seeking by large, unionized bakeries and the unions. Corporate bakeries supported the legislation, which burdened their small, family-owned competitors. The bakers union hoped to suppress the small, non-unionized bakeries that depended on flexible work schedules.

One such was owned by Joseph Lochner, who challenged the law, prevailing in the Supreme Court, 5 to 4. The majority said clean and wholesome bread does not depend on limiting workers hours: Workers are in no sense wards of the state, and there is no evidence that baking is an especially unhealthful profession, so the law was an unconstitutional interference with an unenumerated right of individuals, the liberty of contract."
http://www.washin...ory.html

Sep 08, 2011
the fact that the president can vetoe it must be a real deal clincher.

That should bother everyone who believes in the rule of law and not the rule of kings.

"The main dissent radiated progressivisms statism and paternalism: Government may limit working hours lest workers damage their physical and mental capacity to serve the State, and to provide for those dependent upon them. In another dissent, ultimately famous and hugely influential, Oliver Wendell Holmes, whose judicial restraint often expressed his dogmatic majoritarianism, defended the right of a majority to embody their opinions in law. He said liberty should not be construed to prevent the natural outcome of a dominant opinion.
http://www.washin...ory.html

Sep 08, 2011
"Princetons president, Woodrow Wilson, agreed, dismissing the inalienable rights of the individual as nonsense inimical to governments ability to efficiently work its progressive will. So much for the idea that one of the Constitutions primary purposes is the protection of individual rights against majority tyranny.

Progressives celebrated Holmess gift to government of almost untrammeled police powers."
http://www.washin...ory.html

Sep 08, 2011
And Switfy, this discussion does pertain to ozone regulation. You apparently trust the regulators. Why?

Because this is just an extension of the ozone regs we already have, and they seem to be working?

Also, because we have a system of checks and balances which, in combination with a 4 year election cycle allows any bad regulation to be undone if needed.

I don't really care about the argument you guys are having about progressivism, but I think the history of the progressive movement is interesting. Present day progressives are quite different from progressives of other generations. There have been many different movements with vastly different ideology that are all called progressive. Cool stuff.

If not for regulations, we would still have slaves, and don't try to tell me that I can't sell my daughter.

Sep 08, 2011
If not for regulations, we would still have slaves,

That is BS.

just an extension of the ozone regs we already have,

Why not ban ozone outright? Or CO2 production? What is to stop the EPA?
BTW, the telephone tax passed to fund the Spanish American War was repealed just a few years ago.
Why to you think a new president or Congress will undo bad regulations quickly?
You should care about 'progressivism' as it is fascism. Corporations get Congress to pass laws to restrict competition. You pay more for products and have fewer choices. But that's the socialist way.

Sep 08, 2011
What multinational power?
"Please respect FT.com's ts&cs and copyright policy which allow you to: share links; copy content for personal use; & redistribute limited extracts. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights or use this link to reference the article - http://www.ft.com...XPUIAlXc

Coca-Cola executives have been furious at what they say are government attempts to stigmatise their products as unhealthy in a similar way to tobacco and object to the financial cost of the tax. The company has invested 260m in France since the middle of the last decade. "
http://www.ft.com...XPTa2DL6

Sep 08, 2011
"Then, Hirsh quoted a former Treasury official who argued that DoddFrank would ultimately encourage bank consolidations by creating more barriers to entry for new, smaller banks.

The Treasury official warned that DoddFrank would create this risk by imposing new capital charges that will create barriers to entry for new firms, especially in swaps and other derivatives, while at the same time permitting giant bank holding companies to continue controlling most of what they were before.

Read more: http://dailycalle...XPXL3g9I
"
What a surprise, 'progressive' regulations limit competition.

Sep 09, 2011
under heavy pressure from GOP lawmakers and major industries
That's all one needs to know. Any worker voting for GOP is completely brainwashed.

The president is a 'liberal' democrat who provided the CEO of GE a place of honor for his 'jobs' campaign speech.

Sep 09, 2011
"Then, Hirsh quoted a former Treasury official who argued that DoddFrank would ultimately encourage bank consolidations by creating more barriers to entry for new, smaller banks.

The Treasury official warned that DoddFrank would create this risk by imposing new capital charges that will create barriers to entry for new firms, especially in swaps and other derivatives, while at the same time permitting giant bank holding companies to continue controlling most of what they were before.

"
What a surprise, 'progressive' regulations limit competition.


They also limit companies doing evil things. Companies are out for profit, they are sociopathic about how they achieve that profit. Civil society and government prevent business from undermining the social fabric of society limiting the extent a business can exploit a person's labour. Further more, many people don't hold the libertarian's opinion about human nature that is FORCED onto them.

Sep 09, 2011
Companies are out for profit, they are sociopathic about how they achieve that profit.

Companies must persuade people to buy their products to to work for them.
The first companies that move into a poor area may hire workers at low wages and may be able to 'exploit' those workers until a competitor starts offering better wages and working conditions.
This is documented, no opinions needed.
Is it exploitation when a company moves to an area and hires people that are not working and have little or no opportunity to work? Sounds like a win-win.
Boeing has maxed out production of 787's in WA and wants to expand to SC. Unions are using govt power to prevent interstate commerce and keeping people in SC from working. Who is exploiting here, aided and abetted by the 'progressive' Regulatory State?

Sep 09, 2011
Well, GD R2. You must really hate the working Americans! Unions must be your arch-nemesis. All unions are is a group of people that are using collective bargaining to better their negotiating position. What is wrong with that?
American needs more unions just to keep the Cooperation/Labor honest.

Sep 09, 2011
R2, show many anywhere in the US Constitution the mention of "Progressive" or even "regulatory state" in the original documents,. You can not. Nor will you find "Tea Party". No, that document does not have the word "Capitalism" in it either. Your all bitching and moaning about the level playing the US Constitution provide, but it could be a socialist economy as easy as it could be fascist. The constitutions voice on how the economy is designed is not it's strong point.

That said, it is very strong on how the people have power. We are governed by us, "We the People". So if "WE" make rules to that effect how a company rips the top off a mountain (killing everything) to benefit a just a few people, that is just the way it should be.

That is America. That is what WE are all about.


Sep 09, 2011
R2; the bottom line is this; Regulation is part of our governance . It is our burden of the governed to express our ideas to our representative.

Anyway, I await your reply.

Sep 09, 2011
To bring a glimpse of reality back to world leaders and the citizens they have frightened,

Watch the space weather perspective of Earth and other planets orbiting close to the Sun:

www.physorg.com/n...m67.html

The planets, represented by colored (dots), are outward from the Sun:

-1- Mercury (gold)
-2- Venus (green)
-3- Earth (yellow)
-4- and Mars (red)

Moving through the constantly changing web of space weather!

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo

Sep 10, 2011
@Omatumr; do you think this is a GOOD TIME to BUY GOLD?

Sep 10, 2011
All unions are is a group of people that are using collective bargaining to better their negotiating position.

Really? Why do some states have to force people to join a union if they were so great for the worker?

The Constitution is a document that LIMITS the power of the govt regardless of what 'the people' or 'progressives' want. If the power is not in the Constitution there is a way to amend it. But socialists like Teddy, Wilson and FDR knew they would never succeed so they had to co-op the court system.
Now courts find things in the Constitution that are not there and were never intended to be there.

Sep 10, 2011
"And as part of the deal, the Energy Department agreed that if the company went bust, private investors could recoup their losses before the government. Republicans in Congress called the investment "a bad bet" and said it "put taxpayers at unnecessary risk."

One of the lead private investors in Solyndra was an Oklahoma billionaire who served as an Obama "bundler," raising money during the 2008 presidential campaign.

The bundler, George Kaiser, has declined to comment. His firm, Argonaut Ventures and its affiliates have been the single largest shareholder of Solyndra, according to SEC filings and other records. The company holds 39 percent of Solyndra's parent company, bankruptcy records filed Tuesday show. "
http://abcnews.go...p;page=3
Ken Lay sucked up to Clinton trying to get favorable deals for natural gas. Better sell GE short.

Sep 10, 2011
"What??!! How could this be? Didn't the sophisticated econometric models the Obama administration used to justify its job numbers predict this? Don't central planners know which firms are winners and which are losers? Oh well, let's throw another half-trillion dollars at this stuff anyway. Why not? It's only other people's money."
http://www.facebo...eeonline

Sep 10, 2011
All unions are is a group of people that are using collective bargaining to better their negotiating position.

"On Wednesday in Longview, hundreds of International Longshore and Warehouse Union members, upset over EGTs decision to hire workers from a different union, stormed the facility and blocked train tracks there, escalating a longstanding labor dispute.

By Thursday, union workers walked off the job at four other Washington ports, including one in Seattle, and a federal judge was warning the ILWU to stand down. The ILWU contends that it did not call for the work stoppage.

Read more: http://dailycalle...XYHZSMUc
Collective bargaining?

Sep 10, 2011
It's funny how you keep dragging out the same, long dead arguments. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Was that your diagnosis, Objectivist?
Argumentum ad hominem. Typical childish way of discussing.
Prognosis that bad, huh?

Sep 11, 2011
@Omatumr; do you think this is a GOOD TIME to BUY GOLD?


I think it is a GREAT time to admit that we are totally powerless over the Great Reality that surrounds and sustains us - Nature, Cosmos, God - that we experience by experimentation, prayer, observation, meditation, contemplation, etc.

The unwillingness of world leaders and leaders of the scientific community to admit that they too are POWERLESS over Nature is the root of most of society's problems today.

The worldwide sense of unease (impending doom) may not be relieved unless we find a PEACEFUL way to

- Reduce arrogance in our leaders
- Restore integrity to science, and
- Return control of government to citizens.

This recommendation is from one who was as selfish and arrogant as the worse of them.

Sep 12, 2011
Misinformation on energy that powers the Sun, Earth's climate, and sustains our lives [1-3] endangers National Security.

NAS was "established by an Act of Congress . . . to "investigate, examine, experiment, and report upon any subject of science or art" whenever called upon to do so by any department of the government" [1].

If Congress requests a FULL and CANDID evaluation from NAS of conflicting information in [1-3], BEFORE approving funds for government research, this nonsense will stop!

Please help.

1. UN's IPCC reports (1990-2007)
www.nasonline.org...ain_page

2. Super-fluidity in the solar interior: Implications for solar eruptions and climate", JFE 21, 193-198 (2002) http://arxiv.org/.../0501441

3. "Neutron repulsion", in press
http://arxiv.org/...2.1499v1

With your help, integrity can be restored to science and government!

Sincerely,
Oliver K Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo
http://myprofile....anuelo09

Sep 12, 2011
There is a small, Massechusetts bank that is strong because they did not make bad, govt required loans.
'Progressives' do not like strong, indepenpent banks.

Sep 12, 2011
R2, I'm so sorry you think your government is so bad. You know if your looking for an opportunity; the Brazilian jungles need a developer. Someone strong headed and nutty that hates trees, tree huggers and ants.

Sep 12, 2011
R2 "There is a small, Massechusetts bank that is strong because they did not make bad, govt required loans.". BS. Your loosing your touch squeaky. What bank? What small bank in Mass is breaking regulation by not using "govt required loans"? You an the other tea-party hucksters need to go back to Jr High and take social studies, civics, economics instead of metal shop or Sunday school.
(Nothing wrong with metal shop of course).

Sep 12, 2011
Someone claims that big banks are stronger banks and I provide data that shows the opposite. The bigger banks are weaker BECAUSE of stupid govt regulations the smaller bank didn't follow.
So hottie, if govt regulations are stupid, and weaken liberty and prosperity, do you follow them?
You do if you want the govt to bail you out and to restrict your competitors. This is corporate socialism.

Sep 12, 2011
http://www.bizjou...ry3.html

"Bank of America Corp. (NYSE: BAC), reeling from concerns over the size of its liability from troubled mortgages, has discussed cutting up to 40,000 jobs over several years as CEO Brian Moynihan battles to reduce expenses with a sweeping restructuring plan, the Wall Street Journal reported on Friday.

The bank employed about 288,000 full-time employees at the end of June. "Project New BAC" is the name of the bank's plan to cut expenses and people, the Journal said."
http://www.bizjou...may.html
Big banks are better?

Sep 13, 2011
"The American Lung Association's State of the Air 2010 lists these 10 cities as the country's most polluted by ozone:

Los Angeles, Calif., metropolitan area (including Long Beach and Riverside)
Bakersfield, Calif.
Visalia and Porterville, Calif.
Fresno and Madera, Calif.
Sacramento, Calif., metropolitan area (including Arden-Arcade and Yuba City)
Hanford and Corcoran, Calif.
Houston, Texas, metropolitan area (including Baytown and Huntsville)
San Diego, Calif., metropolitan area (including Carlsbad and San Marcos)
San Luis Obispo and Paso Robles, Calif.
Charlotte, N.C., metropolitan area (including Gastonia and Salisbury)"

http://health.usn...ollution
Of course geography has nothing to do with O3 pollution? Cities located in valleys create stagnant air pockets concentrating pollution.

Sep 13, 2011
R2, I admire how quickly you provided evidence in support of your argument. I'm not that quick.

First on the big-vs-little bank, I prefer the little guys 1000 fold over the bigs. The bigs run the world unfortunately in part due to de-regulation (thank good old POS Regan).

Anyway, back to the O3. So now that Obama wants put off O3 regulations to appease businesses that claim it will cost billions to implement, and to lower the burden on "Job Providers", and your complaining?

O3 in a urban area, in a valley, will have issues. Most of the source of O3 comes from transportation, but coal fired plants contribute too.

Sep 13, 2011
What bank deregulation? Was CRA repealed? Was Freddie or Fannie fully privatized?

Sep 13, 2011
The government didn't "require loans" of any kind.

The bank was punished by the govt because they did not loan more money.

Sep 13, 2011
Former Texas Senator and current UBS executive Phil Grammwould-be President John McCains Treasury Secretary-in-waitingpushed through the Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000, which deregulated the derivatives market. With help from his wife, Wendy, the former head of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission who went on to a post on the Enron board of directors, Gramm removed the controls on Wall Street so it could innovate all sorts of exotic financial instruments. Instruments far riskier than advertised, and now at the core of the financial meltdown.
Oh I'm sure they had very good Reasons for doing those things. One that comes to mind is that the bubble was Inevitably going to pop at some point, as usual, and the actions you describe Timed this collapse to happen at the most Advantageous moment.

Another is that the collapse threatened the most vital economy in the world, and so protecting it meant spreading the risk worldwide rather than leaving it concentrated.

Sep 13, 2011
So... You actually expect Them to tell you what's going to happen, and not instead try to misdirect your attention, obscure Their Preparations? You'd only go on the Internet and tell everybody. And then it would't WORK would it?
WOULD IT??

We are Dupes by Design. The only clue you have is the one you're given.

Sep 13, 2011
Hence the half decade long claims and evidence of an growing housing bubble were ignored on strictly ideological grounds.
That's what it looks like now, from the info you're given and from your own particular official contrarian perspective. Others with different colored glasses interpret the same info entirely differently.

When one looks at the most substantial Effects of these Occurances one sees in them the Effort to Schedule them and to delocalize Them.

A One World Govt needs to generate Issues that everybody can participate in. You know, to impart a sense of Community, to overcome old divisions and create New ones as needed. Like ww2 and the threat of nuclear annihilation for instance.