Making sense of Saturn's impossible rotation

Making sense of Saturn’s impossible rotation
Saturn eclipses the Sun, as seen by the Cassini spacecraft. Credit: NASA

Saturn may be doing a little electromagnetic shimmy and twist which has been throwing off attempts by scientists to determine how long it takes for the planet to rotate on its axis, according to a new study.

Discovering the length of a day on any planet seems like a straightforward task: Find some feature on the planet and clock it as it rotates around once. Or, if it's a gas giant like Jupiter, which has no solid surface features, scientists can listen for periodic modulations in the intensity of radio signals created within the planet's rotating magnetic field.

And then there is Saturn, which for decades has defied attempts to pin down out its exact rotation period. Now a new study in AGU's Journal of Geophysical Research: Space Physics may have finally unveiled the gas giant's trick for hiding its rotation, and provide the key to giving up its secret.

The new research shows how on Saturn may be confusing attempts by scientists to calculate its exact rotation period.

A planet's rotation period is one of the fundamental facts about a planet, along with its size, composition, and other facts that not only describe a planet but help to explain its behavior, history and even provides clues to its formation.

Coy Saturn

Saturn emits only low-frequency radio patterns that are blocked by Earth's atmosphere, make it difficult to study Saturn's rotation from the Earth's surface. In contrast, Jupiter emits radio patterns at higher frequencies that allowed radio astronomers to work out its rotation period before the space age got well under way.

It wasn't until spacecraft were sent to Saturn that scientists were able to collect data about its rotation. Voyagers 1 and 2 sent home the first hints of Saturn's rotation in 1980 and 1981. They detected a modulation of radio intensity that suggested the planet rotated once every 10 hours and 40 minutes.

"So that was what was called the rotation period," said Duane Pontius of Birmingham-Southern College in Alabama and a co-author of the new study.

When the Cassini spacecraft arrived at Saturn 23 years later to study the planet for 13 years, it found something astonishing.

"In about 2004 we saw the period had changed by 6 minutes, about 1 percent," Pontius said.

Making sense of Saturn’s impossible rotation
A mechanical analog model of what might be happening with the northern and southern hemispheres of Saturn’s atmosphere and magnetospheric plasma to create misleading signals of how fast the planet is rotating. The “brake” is the slowing of plasma as it flies further from the planet, in the same way a spinning dancer’s arms move slower when they are outstretched than when they are held close to the body. Credit: E. L. Brooks, et al, 2019, JGR: Space Physics

But how does an entire planet change the speed of its rotation in 20 years? That's the sort of change that takes hundreds of millions of years. Even more mysterious was Cassini's detection of electromagnetic patterns that suggested the planet's rotation is different in the northern and southern hemispheres.

"For a long time, I assumed there was something wrong with the data interpretation," Pontius recalled. "It's just not possible."

Seasons of Saturn

To find out what was really going on, Pontius and his co-authors started by looking at how Saturn is different from its closest sibling, Jupiter.

"What does Saturn have that Jupiter lacks, beside the obvious rings?" Pontius asked. The answer: seasons. Saturn's axis is tilted about 27 degrees, similar to Earth's 23-degree tilt. Jupiter has barely any tilt at all—just 3 degrees.

The tilt means the northern and southern hemispheres of Saturn receive different amounts of radiation from the Sun depending on the season. The different doses of ultraviolet light affect the stripped-down atoms—called plasma—at the edge of Saturn's atmosphere.

According to the model being proposed by Pontius and his colleagues, the variations in UV from summer to winter in the different hemispheres affects the plasma so that it creates more or less drag at the altitudes where it encounters the planet's gaseous atmosphere.

That difference in drag makes the atmosphere slow down, which is what sets the period seen in the radio signals.

Change the plasma seasonally, and you change the period of the radio emissions, which is what is seen on Saturn.

The new model provides a solution to the puzzle of Saturn's impossible changing rotation periods. It also shows that the observed periods are not the period of Saturn's core, which remains unmeasured.

Pontius presented the model earlier this year at a meeting of Saturn scientists and said it was well received. Now he hopes that other researchers will take the next step to refine the model by exploring how well it fits with 13 years of Saturn data collected by Cassini.


Explore further

Image: Night into day on Saturn's rings

More information: E.L. Brooks et al. Saturn's multiple, variable periodicities: A dual‐flywheel model of thermosphere‐ionosphere‐magnetosphere coupling, Journal of Geophysical Research: Space Physics (2019). DOI: 10.1029/2019JA026870
Journal information: Journal of Geophysical Research

This story is republished courtesy of AGU Blogs (http://blogs.agu.org), a community of Earth and space science blogs, hosted by the American Geophysical Union. Read the original story here.

Citation: Making sense of Saturn's impossible rotation (2019, September 6) retrieved 18 September 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2019-09-saturn-impossible-rotation.html
This document is subject to copyright. Apart from any fair dealing for the purpose of private study or research, no part may be reproduced without the written permission. The content is provided for information purposes only.
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Sep 06, 2019
Err, ummm. So electric currents drive this system.... Isn't that special!

Sep 06, 2019
Duhhh look, they talked about electricity uh-hyuh!


Isn't that special!

Sep 06, 2019
The Electric Universe©

Sep 06, 2019
isn't that special?
the thunderdolts confusing the effect for the cause

cant & shoo, blaming the flash & bang for the damage to their toes when they fire a pistol

Sep 06, 2019
Frauds thinks electricity is magic. They think a perfect insulator (free space) is a massive conductor. Fools.

Sep 06, 2019
Duhhh look, they talked about electricity uh-hyuh!


Isn't that special!

Aren't you "special".

Sep 06, 2019
Aren't you "special".


Clever girl.

Sep 06, 2019
Free space is not an insulator, as was once thought. Space is Not a vacuum, by the old definitions, space is not at all empty. Since electrons cross open space just fine, if there is a field of potential, and those fields, magnetic fields, are ubiquitous in nature and we find them all across the universe and we see these fields at all scales, from tabletop experiments to huge megaparsec wide magnetic fields with alpha hydrogen riding them and showing them out, connecting mega galactic cluster to mega galactic cluster.

It has only been a matter of being able to detect them, and finding things to use as indicators of magnetic fields, such as the alpha hydrogen line and it's polarization. Such signals are also fairly weak, but they show widespread magnetic fields. Magnetism gives rise to electric current due to a difference of potential and the fact that the ubiquitous plasma follows the fields lines and gives it's own radiance showing these currents.

Mebbe time to update the code.

Sep 06, 2019
"Discovering the length of a day on any planet seems like a straightforward task: Find some feature on the planet and clock it as it rotates around once. Or, if it's a gas giant like Jupiter, which has no solid surface features, scientists can listen for periodic modulations in the intensity of radio signals created within the planet's rotating magnetic field."

LOL Science seems to be coming around to the understanding that each planet is its own clockwork, according to its length of hours, minutes and seconds relative to its rotation cycle of sunrise to sunrise event. In the case of Saturn, the 'seasons' occurring on it are the Events/Actions on a planetary scale that are calculable as its Saturnian clockwork.
And it is ALL tied into the Clockwork of the Universe.

Sep 06, 2019
Aren't you "special".


Clever girl.

Stupid What's it.

Sep 06, 2019
@antigoracle
Ignore the lout. He or she (jingles) is here in this site to make disparaging stupid remarks about other commentators, without offering any valid science in his own words that can be discussed productively. He or she has already proven to be a 'troll' that can be dismissed easily if one considers it.

Sep 06, 2019
Free space is not an insulator, as was once thought.


And you haven't ever sat on an electronics bench and done a damn thing.

Free space's 6 atoms per cubic meter is quite insulating.

Are you claiming there's enough plasma in or solar system to conduct currents (1% density required)? I doubt it.


Sep 06, 2019
@O_C_C
I don't quite follow your meaning. 6 atoms of which element? Free Space is not 100% vacuum, and is made up of many elements in the form of dust and gases. Please inform us. Thanks

Sep 06, 2019
sillyegfhead, you are not just a anti-science fraud but also a religious fakir

you are the one who insisted that there is no "time"
since measuring time is the function of a clockworks ?
how do you justify that drivel about a creator screwing it all up so bad?

it is the height of hypocrisy for you to preach apologia for your astrology-based clockwork-orange fairyland cosmos

on what authority do you claim the absolute power to dictate universal laws to whatever deity you claim to be the master of?

Sep 06, 2019
rrwillsj opines and as usual, gets it all wrong. Here is what rrwillsj is actually saying every time she makes a comment:

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A-well-a bird bird bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird bird bird, well-a bird is the word
A-well-a bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird bird bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird bird bird, well-a bird is the word
A-well-a bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a don't you know, about the bird?
Well, everybody knows that the bird is the word!
A-well-a bird, bird, b-bird's the bird

ROFLOL

Sep 06, 2019
I don't quite follow your meaning. 6 atoms of which element?


Hydrogen mostly.

Sep 06, 2019
Free space is not an insulator, as was once thought.


And you haven't ever sat on an electronics bench and done a damn thing.

Free space's 6 atoms per cubic meter is quite insulating.

Are you claiming there's enough plasma in or solar system to conduct currents (1% density required)? I doubt it.


Old Code is revealing his old mind and inability to learn "new" facts. Space is by no means an insulator, the presence of the solar wind is just one indicator his assumptions are completely off base.

Sep 06, 2019
CD is correct. The 'vacuum' of Space has no 'insulating' qualities, which allows all Matter/Energy to travel through Space freely. Matter provides insulation, but the Matter that is floating in outer Space is so dispersed that it could not wrap itself around or cling to other Matter, except if under the influence of Gravity.

According to the illustration: A Plasma sandwiched in between two atmospheres? How would that happen? Did I miss something?

Sep 06, 2019
What's most amusing here is the plasma fanatics ignoring the fact that none of this affects the actual rotation rate of Saturn's core, which we still don't know:
The new model provides a solution to the puzzle of Saturn's impossible changing rotation periods. It also shows that the observed periods are not the rotation period of Saturn's core, WHICH REMAINS UNMEASURED.
Caps mine. So some plasma is dragging around some gas. It's not provably affecting the actual rotation rate.

Typical plasma fanatic bullshit.

Sep 06, 2019
But how does an entire planet change the speed of its rotation in 20 years? That's the sort of change that takes hundreds of millions of years. Even more mysterious was Cassini's detection of electromagnetic patterns that suggested the planet's rotation is different in the northern and southern hemispheres.

That which takes hundreds of millions of years using gravity based physics can be accomplished in less than 20 years when electricity and magnetism are considered.

Sep 06, 2019
That which takes hundreds of millions of years using gravity based physics can be accomplished in less than 20 years when electricity and magnetism are considered.
How, exactly? Are you claiming to know the composition of the core of Saturn? Do you think god/jebus/muhammed/xenu/buddha/elron/krishna/whatever diddit?

Just askin'.

Sep 06, 2019
Meanwhile, why is it that ephemerides correctly calculate Saturn's position from gravity alone, without reference to any weird plasma bullshit from the plasma fanatics?

Sep 07, 2019
My goodness, Schneib. That sure is a lot of idols that you keep around your house. Not taking any chances, are you?

@CD
"Even more mysterious was Cassini's detection of electromagnetic patterns that suggested the planet's rotation is different in the northern and southern hemispheres."

Not sure, but wouldn't that difference in rotation indicate a 'wobble' in its rotation that makes the planet not exactly ROUND, but possibly more pear shaped? EM patterns would look like what?
Perhaps the northern hemisphere is clocked at 10 hrs. 40 mins. and the southern hemisphere is clocked at 10 hrs. 46 mins. That would account for that extra 6 minutes they found. That slight bulge in the southern or the northern would take slightly longer to rotate. Not sure in which hemisphere it would be at. If they clocked one hemisphere and got one result, then the other hemisphere would have a different result.

Sep 07, 2019
By "idols" you obviously mean "telescopes."

On Earth.

Duhhhh ummmmm.

Sep 07, 2019
I own a 300mm f/2.8, a 600mm f/4, a 127mm f/5.6, a 200mm f/3.5, and a 235mm f/10.

Did you have something else in mind?

Sep 07, 2019
Old Code is revealing his old mind and inability to learn "new" facts. Space is by no means an insulator


God you are such an idiot.

Sep 07, 2019
Old Code is revealing his old mind and inability to learn "new" facts. Space is by no means an insulator


God you are such an idiot.

He gets shown up, then resorts to childish name calling.

Sep 07, 2019
Old Code is revealing his old mind and inability to learn "new" facts. Space is by no means an insulator


God you are such an idiot.

Old C is probably referring to the theory of electrons and holes for insulators. this works fine at room temp but not in the vastness of space where temperatures are far greater in range.

Sep 07, 2019
That which takes hundreds of millions of years using gravity based physics can be accomplished in less than 20 years when electricity and magnetism are considered.
How, exactly? Are you claiming to know the composition of the core of Saturn? Do you think god/jebus/muhammed/xenu/buddha/elron/krishna/whatever diddit?

Just askin'.

Explained in above paper, driven by electric currents and likely powered by currents from the Sun.

Sep 07, 2019
Meanwhile, why is it that ephemerides correctly calculate Saturn's position from gravity alone, without reference to any weird plasma bullshit from the plasma fanatics?

To steal your description from a fellow poster, Trollian da schnied, builds the strawman to then tears it down. The discussion is regarding Saturn's rotation speed and variability, not orbit or relative position.

Sep 07, 2019
Old C is probably referring to the theory of electrons and holes for insulators.


I'm talking about basic EE. Free space is a much better insulator than the air around an electronics work bench, which is a great insulator, i.e. wires verses air.

And the fraud argues the 6 atoms per cubic meter free space is conductive, which is foolishly wrong.

There is plenty of regions in our galaxy where there is charged plasma (greater than 1% density plasma) which has much electric current.

BUT NOTHING in our solar system powering our Sun.

Sep 07, 2019
Old C is probably referring to the theory of electrons and holes for insulators.


I'm talking about basic EE. Free space is a much better insulator than the air around an electronics work bench, which is a great insulator, i.e. wires verses air.

And the fraud argues the 6 atoms per cubic meter free space is conductive, which is foolishly wrong.

There is plenty of regions in our galaxy where there is charged plasma (greater than 1% density plasma) which has much electric current.

BUT NOTHING in our solar system powering our Sun.

Apparently this troll is unaware of the heliospheric current sheet nor the observed Birkeland currents at the solar poles.

Sep 07, 2019
Apparently this troll is unaware of the heliospheric current sheet nor the observed Birkeland currents at the solar poles.


That adds up to NOTHING!
You're the Troll for sure. And a heliospheric current sheet is not FREE SPACE.

Sep 07, 2019
From the DOI: "We propose an explanation. As charged particles move through Saturn's magnetic field (its "magnetosphere"), they change rotational speed, just as ballet dancers change speed by shifting their limbs. This puts electromagnetic stress on the planet's atmosphere and causes a high‐altitude layer to rotate more slowly. The summer hemisphere is more directly exposed to solar ultraviolet radiation, which makes it conduct electricity better. Electrical currents go preferentially to that hemisphere which slows the atmosphere more than in the winter hemisphere. The result is a longer summer period compared to the winter. As the seasons change, the rotation periods should swap between North and South, as is observed."

I still think that one of the hemispheres is slightly 'thicker' than the other, which would also account for the discrepancy in rotation cycle. But their PROPOSAL may be the correct one, as well as CD's.

@OCC and CD - will you two just relax please. Thank you.

Sep 07, 2019
Apparently this troll is unaware of the heliospheric current sheet nor the observed Birkeland currents at the solar poles.


No Birkeland currents at the poles, and the HCS is powering nothing! It is a natural consequence of the fact that the magnetic field polarity of the Sun changes from N - S at the solar equator.

Sep 07, 2019
Explained in above paper, driven by electric currents and likely powered by currents from the Sun.


Nothing about currents from the Sun! Lol. You made that up.

Sep 07, 2019
Holey moley what a lot of comments.
Did anyone read the article?
The ATMOSPHERE is rotating at various speeds, they have no idea what the planet itself is doing.

On Venus the atmosphere is rotating OPPOSITE the planet itself. Doubtful that is the case with Saturn, but, they do NOT know, that is the point of the article.

Interesting, actually, one of you comment writers should read it.

Sep 07, 2019
What's most amusing here is the plasma fanatics ignoring the fact that none of this affects the actual rotation rate of Saturn's core, which we still don't know:
The new model provides a solution to the puzzle of Saturn's impossible changing rotation periods. It also shows that the observed periods are not the rotation period of Saturn's core, WHICH REMAINS UNMEASURED.

Caps mine. So some plasma is dragging around some gas. It's not provably affecting the actual rotation rate.


All I can do is try.

Sep 08, 2019
LOL Science seems to be coming around to the understanding that each planet is its own clockwork, according to its length of hours, minutes and seconds relative to its rotation cycle of sunrise to sunrise event. In the case of Saturn, the 'seasons' occurring on it are the Events/Actions on a planetary scale that are calculable as its Saturnian clockwork.
And it is ALL tied into the Clockwork of the Universe
Pussytard learnt science from daytime TV.
https://youtu.be/Og7-6YubuS4
I still think that one of the hemispheres is slightly 'thicker' than the other
-and also from the behavior of the milkshakes she drinks for breakfast.

Sep 08, 2019
Apparently this troll is unaware of the heliospheric current sheet nor the observed Birkeland currents at the solar poles.


That adds up to NOTHING!
You're the Troll for sure. And a heliospheric current sheet is not FREE SPACE.

Actually, it does add up to something;
"The total current in the circuit is on the order of 3×10^9 amperes."
https://www.plasm...t-sheet/

Sep 08, 2019
@CD

"That difference in drag makes the atmosphere slow down, which is what sets the period seen in the radio signals.
Change the plasma seasonally, and you change the period of the radio emissions, which is what is seen on Saturn.
The new model provides a solution to the puzzle of Saturn's impossible changing rotation periods. It also shows that the observed periods are not the rotation period of Saturn's core, which remains unmeasured."

I have to wonder how is the Plasma changed 'seasonally'. Could they mean that the Plasma moves to either the northern or the southern hemisphere of Saturn with the change of the seasons?

Sep 09, 2019
Ignore the lout. He or she (jingles) is here in this site to make disparaging stupid remarks about other commentators, without offering any valid science in his own words that can be discussed productively. He or she has already proven to be a 'troll' that can be dismissed easily if one considers it.


The irony of your statement is palpable, you display your scientific ineptitude on a daily basis. Several days ago you showed you don't understand the concept of gravity, making multiple profoundly stupid comments. When talking about the concept of time, you don't bring anything scientific to the table, you just say it's man-made, and refuse to address the Lorentz transforms or their implications. Your grasp on the concept of space is equally abysmal, calling it a plasma. You refer to human kind as if it's not your own, and you constantly allude to being some other type of being. And your incompetence seems to extend so far as you not understanding "Mr" implies male.

Sep 09, 2019
Cant is such a liar, this is from the link he posted, not 10^9 amps. 10 to the minus 10 amps.

A small electrical current flows within the sheet, about 10-10 amps/m2. The thickness of the current sheet is about 10,000km.


But this powers our Sun? Fool.

Sep 09, 2019
Cant is such a liar, this is from the link he posted, not 10^9 amps. 10 to the minus 10 amps.

A small electrical current flows within the sheet, about 10-10 amps/m2. The thickness of the current sheet is about 10,000km.


But this powers our Sun? Fool.


Yes, that is the power per unit area, compared to the overall power within the current sheet. It is p!ss weak. And, as I've already explained to our resident plasma dumbo, the current is caused by the opposite polarity of the Sun's N & S hemispheres where they meet in the equatorial plane.
If the current were to be powering the Sun, here is the scenario that would need to happen;

Sun forms. Somehow. Sun creates magnetic field. Somehow. Sun then powers itself by the current produced by its own magnetic field, which formed..........somehow.
Not particularly intelligent thinking. However, we are dealing with the plasma ignoramuses of EU here!

Sep 09, 2019
Cant is such a liar, this is from the link he posted, not 10^9 amps. 10 to the minus 10 amps.

A small electrical current flows within the sheet, about 10-10 amps/m2. The thickness of the current sheet is about 10,000km.


But this powers our Sun? Fool.

Nope no lies but clearly you can't read. The 10^9 amps is the approx total current within that circuit per the MHD model. The line you quoted is the current density of an area m^2. How about you get a clue?

Sep 09, 2019
Nope no lies but clearly you can't read. The 10^9 amps is the approx total current within that circuit per the MHD model. The line you quoted is the current density of an area m^2. How about you get a clue?


And what is the energy output of the Sun in watts? You know the amperage, as shown. Rearranging a simple equation (do you know which one?) will then tell you the voltage required. As you say, I am completely clueless about electrickery - don't trust it one little bit! Nasty stuff.
However, I would be even more averse to 10^17 volts of the stuff lurking around! Or maybe I screwed the calculation up. I'm sure you can tell us.

Sep 09, 2019
I have a question on this topic. Are you saying that it is impossible for the Sun to have any connection to Earth via an electric current that could be emitted from the Sun through a Filament that could lock into Earth's Magnetosphere?

Sep 09, 2019
I have a question on this topic. Are you saying that it is impossible for the Sun to have any connection to Earth via an electric current that could be emitted from the Sun through a Filament that could lock into Earth's Magnetosphere?

These filaments have already been found;
https://science.n...oct_ftes
And there is no reason to not believe the rest of the Sun's planets aren't also connected to the Sun.
http://www.physic...wMlNlAwA

Sep 09, 2019
I have a question on this topic. Are you saying that it is impossible for the Sun to have any connection to Earth via an electric current that could be emitted from the Sun through a Filament that could lock into Earth's Magnetosphere?


Correct. The solar wind is not a current. There can be (and are) currents induced within the solar wind. By necessity, they are transient and of limited extent.
There are currents induced in the Earth's magnetosphere, due to its interaction with the solar wind, and the IMF (interplanetary magnetic field), which is carried by the solar wind.
For very obvious reasons, there cannot be a net current leaving the Sun. It would become charged up to the opposite sign of the current. That would not end well.

Sep 09, 2019
I have a question on this topic. Are you saying that it is impossible for the Sun to have any connection to Earth via an electric current that could be emitted from the Sun through a Filament that could lock into Earth's Magnetosphere?

These filaments have already been found;
https://science.n...oct_ftes


And they are not electric currents! That is just a p!ss poor press release. Read the paper/s. I'm sure I can locate a plasma astrophysicist's comments bemoaning that particular PR as being awful!

Sep 09, 2019
For the hard of thinking, a magnetic flux rope is in fact an electric current. A Birkeland current for that matter...

Sep 09, 2019
For the hard of thinking, a magnetic flux rope is in fact an electric current. A Birkeland current for that matter...


Wrong and wrong.

Sep 09, 2019
Currents in the solar wind

SEU, I have a question
Are you saying
that it is impossible for the Sun
to have any connection
to Earth via an electric current
that could be emitted from the Sun
through a Filament
that could lock into Earth's Magnetosphere?


castro, The solar wind is not a current
There can be
And are
Currents induced within the solar wind
By necessity
They are transient and of limited extent
There are currents induced in the Earth's magnetosphere
Due to its interaction with the solar wind
And the IMF
which is carried by the solar wind
For very obvious reasons
There cannot be a net current leaving the Sun
It would become charged up to the opposite sign of the current
That would not end well


The bit
That will tickle pink, cant

Is castro, saying
The solar wind is not a current
There can be
And are
Currents induced within the solar wind

Is like cant saying
The plasmoid is not a current
There can be
And are
Currents induced within a plasmoid

Sep 09, 2019
^^^^Shut up Granville, you haven't got a clue.

Sep 09, 2019
Protons and electrons in this solar wind

castro, There cannot be a net current leaving the Sun
It would become charged up to the opposite sign of the current
That would not end well

In a world not far removed from this world
A similar voice said
Electrons and protons
Flow in the solar wind
Side by side without interacting

Implying
if this sun builds a positive charge
While its negative charge is flowing with this solar wind
So is this positive charge flowing in this solar wind
This sun does not become positively charged

Sep 09, 2019
No, castro
^^^^Shut up Granville, you haven't got a clue.

That was the wrong phrase
The correct phrase castro is "you swine"
You have to get your phrases in the right order!

Sep 09, 2019
Protons and electrons in this solar wind

castro, There cannot be a net current leaving the Sun
It would become charged up to the opposite sign of the current
That would not end well

In a world not far removed from this world
A similar voice said
Electrons and protons
Flow in the solar wind
Side by side without interacting

Implying
if this sun builds a positive charge
While its negative charge is flowing with this solar wind
So is this positive charge flowing in this solar wind
This sun does not become positively charged


Indecipherable gibberish.

Sep 09, 2019
^^^^Shut up Granville, you haven't got a clue.
says Castrovagina

But CV, don't you understand that you have contradicted yourself by agreeing that, on the one hand, "that it is impossible for the Sun to have any connection to Earth via an electric current that could be emitted from the Sun through a Filament that could lock into Earth's Magnetosphere?"

And then, on the other hand, you say that, "The solar wind is not a current." (so far, so good).

And then you say:
"There can be (and are) currents induced within the solar wind. By necessity, they are transient and of limited extent."
Where do those CURRENTS ORIGINATE and by what means, even if of limited extent? How is the solar wind capable of 'inducing' currents when the SW itself is not a current? What is IN that Solar Wind that gives it the ability to produce 'currents'?

-contd-

Sep 09, 2019
For the hard of thinking, a magnetic flux rope is in fact an electric current. A Birkeland current for that matter...


Wrong and wrong.

You are "wrong and wrong", as usual;

"Magnetic flux ropes are generally defined as a bundle of magnetic fields that are twisted about each other and wrap around a common axis. These current-carrying magnetic field systems are crucially important as they may exhibit eruptive activities while being subject to different modes of instabilities and forces (Myers et al., 2017)."
https://www.front...018/full

As shown, magnetic flux ropes are "current-carrying magnetic field systems" despite jonesdumb's erroneous beliefs.
The Sun is connected to its planet's via these Birkeland currents.

Sep 09, 2019
-contd-
CV said:
"There are currents induced in the Earth's magnetosphere, due to its interaction with the solar wind, and the IMF (interplanetary magnetic field), which is carried by the solar wind.
What type of interaction is it with the SW that could induce 'electric currents' in the Earth's Magnetosphere; and how is the Solar Wind able to carry the "Interplanetary Magnetic Field" when it can't even carry electric currents except for transient ones of limited extent?

To which planets (besides Earth) does the Solar Wind carry this IMF (interplanetary magnetic field)? Does this mean that all the planets in the SS are interconnected via this IMF, like a bunch of grapes that are interconnected by a vine? And yet, no electric currents can be found to connect all the planets? And the Solar Wind is emitted by the Sun.

Sep 09, 2019

The Sun is connected to its planet's via these Birkeland currents.


Nope. no Birkeland currents. Link to the paper stating that. And the PR is a heap of crap. Read the paper, dumbo. Too difficult to understand, isn't it? Hint; it's magnetic reconnection! Lol. Dummy.

http://www.intern...unt=2802

Sep 09, 2019
quote SEU:
"Does this mean that all the planets in the SS are interconnected via this IMF, like a bunch of grapes that are interconnected by a vine? And yet, no electric currents can be found to connect all the planets? And the Solar Wind is emitted by the Sun."

Total gibberish.

Sep 09, 2019
To which planets (besides Earth) does the Solar Wind carry this IMF (interplanetary magnetic field)? Does this mean that all the planets in the SS are interconnected via this IMF, like a bunch of grapes that are interconnected by a vine? And yet, no electric currents can be found to connect all the planets? And the Solar Wind is emitted by the Sun.


Why not go ask on a physics forum? You want all that explained on a comments section with a 1000 character limit? Not happening.
The IMF is frozen-in to the plasma. It is a magnetic field. The IMF goes all the way to the heliopause. Which is where Voyager was a few years ago. Not the Oort cloud, BTW! And why on Earth would currents connect the planets? Nobody is claiming such nonsense. No scientists, anyway.

Sep 09, 2019
I'll play along SEU.
The solar system is a bunch of grapes connected by a vine. In fact quantum mechanics can be described by your SSGVT (Solar System Grape Vine Theory)
It's so simple. I can't believe humankind has struggled for so long. Thanks SEU. You are a genius.

Sep 09, 2019
LOL I never said that, which means that your imagination is running overtime. Now go and have your glass of Ovaltine and play nice with your siblings if you have any.

Sep 09, 2019
I quote SEU:
"Does this mean that all the planets in the SS are interconnected via this IMF, like a bunch of grapes that are interconnected by a vine? And yet, no electric currents can be found to connect all the planets? And the Solar Wind is emitted by the Sun

Sep 09, 2019
To which planets (besides Earth) does the Solar Wind carry this IMF (interplanetary magnetic field)? Does this mean that all the planets in the SS are interconnected via this IMF, like a bunch of grapes that are interconnected by a vine? And yet, no electric currents can be found to connect all the planets? And the Solar Wind is emitted by the Sun.


Why not go ask on a physics forum? You want all that explained on a comments section with a 1000 character limit? Not happening.
The IMF is frozen-in to the plasma. It is a magnetic field. The IMF goes all the way to the heliopause. Which is where Voyager was a few years ago. Not the Oort cloud, BTW! And why on Earth would currents connect the planets? Nobody is claiming such nonsense. No scientists, anyway.
says CV

Voyager1 is on its way to the oort cloud for however long it takes.
What? Weren't you aware that you could use multiple comment boxes when you've run out of room? Come on, CV. Show us how smart you are.

Sep 09, 2019
Voyager1 is on its way to the oort cloud for however long it takes.
What? Weren't you aware that you could use multiple comment boxes when you've run out of room? Come on, CV. Show us how smart you are.


Lol. Which just goes to show how ignorant you are! You'll need to read a book. I am not writing one for you, you clown. Get an education.

Sep 09, 2019
Castro know what's he's talking about. You should actually listen to him.
I totally understand his limited patience for you morons.


Sep 09, 2019
You said:
"The IMF is frozen-in to the plasma. It is a magnetic field. The IMF goes all the way to the heliopause."


So, an INTERPLANETARY Magnetic Field is frozen to plasma? Where is the plasma? Do you mean the plasma that is in the Saturn atmosphere?

Sep 09, 2019
@SEU

You are making no sense
"So, an INTERPLANETARY Magnetic Field is frozen to plasma? Where is the plasma? Do you mean the plasma that is in the Saturn atmosphere?"

It's time to take your meds and go to sleep.


Sep 09, 2019
Voyager1 is on its way to the oort cloud for however long it takes.
What? Weren't you aware that you could use multiple comment boxes when you've run out of room? Come on, CV. Show us how smart you are.


Lol. Which just goes to show how ignorant you are! You'll need to read a book. I am not writing one for you, you clown. Get an education.

But I want YOU to educate me, CV, since it is YOU that seems to be the genius around here. Make me less ignorant with all the knowledge that you've acquired from reading books on GR. SR. and all that Physics you've learned from old books.

Sep 09, 2019
So, an INTERPLANETARY Magnetic Field is frozen to plasma? Where is the plasma? Do you mean the plasma that is in the Saturn atmosphere?


The plasma is the solar wind! You have zero chance of understanding this subject. Not a hope. However, you can try this appropriately entitled thread from a plasma physicist;

https://forum.cos...=dummies

Sep 09, 2019
But I want YOU to educate me, CV, since it is YOU that seems to be the genius around here. Make me less ignorant with all the knowledge that you've acquired from reading books on GR. SR. and all that Physics you've learned from old books.


Then go join a physics forum. I am not p!ssing around on here for the likes of you. Do you know why textbooks are written? And what university courses are for?

Sep 09, 2019
So, an INTERPLANETARY Magnetic Field is frozen to plasma? Where is the plasma? Do you mean the plasma that is in the Saturn atmosphere?


The plasma is the solar wind! You have zero chance of understanding this subject. Not a hope. However, you can try this appropriately entitled thread from a plasma physicist;

https://forum.cos...=dummies
says Castrovagina

Well, that's why I'm asking YOU, of all people, CV. How was I to know that the Solar Wind is Plasma? And you claim that the Solar Wind has no electric currents except for some transient ones, but the SW is made of Plasma.

Sep 09, 2019
But I want YOU to educate me, CV, since it is YOU that seems to be the genius around here. Make me less ignorant with all the knowledge that you've acquired from reading books on GR. SR. and all that Physics you've learned from old books.


Then go join a physics forum. I am not p!ssing around on here for the likes of you. Do you know why textbooks are written? And what university courses are for?
says CV

But nobody here is asking you to piss around, CV. I just want to know what YOU know.
For some strange reason, you don't seem to want to impart your glorious knowledge to this mere scholar and interested observer. You make a poor instructor/teacher. I could imagine you in front of a class of avid students asking questions. You would likely tell them all to shut up and go read book and not bother you. LOL

Sep 09, 2019
So what you're actually trying to say is that the Solar Wind that is emitted by the Sun is Plasma. But this Plasma IS the Solar Wind which carried no electric currents, except for tiny currents that don't stay very long. And that very same Plasma/Solar Wind also carries an INTERPLANETARY magnetic field that extends out to the heliosphere. Wow, I'm so impressed.

Sep 09, 2019
So what you're actually trying to say is that the Solar Wind that is emitted by the Sun is Plasma. But this Plasma IS the Solar Wind which carried no electric currents, except for tiny currents that don't stay very long. And that very same Plasma/Solar Wind also carries an INTERPLANETARY magnetic field that extends out to the heliosphere. Wow, I'm so impressed.


No, you are just f$%^ing thick.

Sep 09, 2019
@SEU
Time for bed dude.

Sep 09, 2019
.......but the SW is made of Plasma.


And..................................? Derive the net current of the following parcel of plasma;

[+ - + - + - + - + -]

+5 -5 = ?

Sep 09, 2019
So I googled 'oort cloud' and voyager1 and came up with this NASA site. Wow, 300 more years to go.
https://solarsyst...n-depth/

Too bad you won't be around to see it.

Sep 09, 2019
So what you're actually trying to say is that the Solar Wind that is emitted by the Sun is Plasma. But this Plasma IS the Solar Wind which carried no electric currents, except for tiny currents that don't stay very long. And that very same Plasma/Solar Wind also carries an INTERPLANETARY magnetic field that extends out to the heliosphere. Wow, I'm so impressed.


No, you are just f$%^ing thick.
says Castrovagina

But that is how you presented it to me, CV, in comparative words. if you meant something else, then why didn't you open up your book and copy it word for word so that your meaning would be that much more clear?

Sep 09, 2019
Well, that's why I'm asking YOU, of all people, CV. How was I to know that the Solar Wind is Plasma?


What did you think it was made of? Jellybeans? I type 'what is the solar wind' into Google. One of the results is;

https://en.wikipe...lar_wind


Sep 09, 2019
So, what you're trying to say is that, the Solar Wind is made of Plasma, but though it has no electric currents running through it, it affects Earth's magnetic field? Would that also affect the Aurora?

Sep 09, 2019
Hey CastroV
What is your opinion on this recent event up in Canada that happens during the Aurora display. This gorgeous pinkish column that they are calling S.T.E.V.E.
It seems to be something new, nothing ever seen before.

Sep 09, 2019

The Sun is connected to its planet's via these Birkeland currents.


Nope. no Birkeland currents. Link to the paper stating that. And the PR is a heap of crap. Read the paper, dumbo. Too difficult to understand, isn't it? Hint; it's magnetic reconnection! Lol. Dummy.

http://www.intern...unt=2802

These helically twisted current carrying magnetic flux tubes aren't Birkeland currents? Weird because thetitle fit that description.

Sep 09, 2019
These helically twisted current carrying magnetic flux tubes aren't Birkeland currents? Weird because thetitle fit that description.


Really? According to which paper?

Sep 09, 2019
.......but the SW is made of Plasma.


And..................................? Derive the net current of the following parcel of plasma;

[+ - + - + - + - + -]

+5 -5 = ?

Meaningless nonsense which has no place in nature.

Sep 09, 2019
.......but the SW is made of Plasma.


And..................................? Derive the net current of the following parcel of plasma;

[+ - + - + - + - + -]

+5 -5 = ?

Meaningless nonsense which has no place in nature.


Only meaningless to you because you are clueless about plasma physics.

Sep 09, 2019
The IMF is frozen-in to the plasma. It is a magnetic field.

Pure pseudoscientific claptrap, magnetic fields are not frozen-in to the plasma.

Sep 09, 2019
The IMF is frozen-in to the plasma. It is a magnetic field.

Pure pseudoscientific claptrap, magnetic fields are not frozen-in to the plasma.


Yes they are. Depending on the timescale you are looking at, and the conductivity of the plasma. What is the magnetic Reynolds number of the solar wind? And why is that important? You need to quit commenting on subjects you don't understand. i.e. science.

Sep 09, 2019
.......but the SW is made of Plasma.


And..................................? Derive the net current of the following parcel of plasma;

[+ - + - + - + - + -]

+5 -5 = ?

Meaningless nonsense which has no place in nature.


Only meaningless to you because you are clueless about plasma physics.

You still don't know what quasi-neutral means, do you? LOL!

Sep 10, 2019
You still don't know what quasi-neutral means, do you? LOL!


Yes I do. I've read enough books and papers that describe it, even in terms idiots like you could understand!

Sep 10, 2019
You still don't know what quasi-neutral means, do you? LOL!


Yes I do. I've read enough books and papers that describe it, even in terms idiots like you could understand!

It doesn't mean charges cancel moron.

Sep 10, 2019
It doesn't mean charges cancel moron.


Yes it does, idiot.

This leads immediately to the explanation of a rather confusing term in plasma physics, and that is quasi-neutrality. Overall, when a plasma is created, either in the lab or in space, from a neutral gas, there will be equal amounts of electron charge and ion charge and the total sum over the whole cloud will be zero. However, this does not mean that variations in the net charge in small regions of the cloud cannot occur. We have just seen that the influence of a small local disturbance of the charge neutrality gets screened off. This means that deviations of charge neutrality of the plasma can take place on length scales on the order of the DeBye length. So, the plasma is neutral on the whole, but in small portions there can be a net charge.


https://forum.cos...=dummies

Sep 10, 2019
Bugger, I'm never going to get to sleep now! I'll be lying awake wondering what the hell cantthink imagines quasi-neutrality to mean!

Sep 10, 2019
Detailed calculations show that indeed when a charge is put in an equilib-
rium plasma, it attracts ambient charges of opposite signs and repels charges of
like signs, so that it is surrounded by a region of size LD where the attracted
particles are concentrated and the repelled ones are depleted, producing a charge
distribution that shields the electrostatic field of the original charge...............

Numerically, LD ≃ 69 x SQRT T /n in SI units, which comes to about 10 m in the
solar wind at 1 AU from the Sun (n ∼ 5 × 10^6 m^−3, T ∼ 10^5 K). Therefore,
we have not to worry about the quasi-neutrality of the solar wind, except when
dealing with scales smaller than tens of metres - a problem that occurs in the
environment of space probes (Section 7.2).


Basics of the Solar Wind
Meyer-Vernet, N.
https://www.cambr...C54629C7

Section 2. 1. 2

Sep 10, 2019
For avoidance of doubt;

Since charges of opposite signs attract each other, whereas charges of like signs
repel each other, the Coulomb force tends to establish electric neutrality. The
random agitation, however, mixes the particles, destroying this neutrality. The
competition between both effects produces small regions that are non-neutral.
The hotter the plasma, the greater the agitation and therefore the larger the
maximum size of the non-neutral regions. On the other hand, the denser the
medium, the greater the Coulomb force that keeps the plasma neutral, and
therefore the smaller the size of the non-neutral regions.


Same ref as above.

Sep 10, 2019
"Wherever charged particles flow in a neutralizing medium, such as free electrons in a background of ions, the charged particle flow or current produces a ring of magnetic field around the current, pinching the plasma into multi-filamentary strands of conduction currents."
http://plasmauniv...tml#what

Of course, this is based on real plasma physics unlike the pseudo-plasma in which jonesdumb believes.

Sep 10, 2019
"Wherever charged particles flow in a neutralizing medium, such as free electrons in a background of ions, the charged particle flow or current produces a ring of magnetic field around the current, pinching the plasma into multi-filamentary strands of conduction currents."
http://plasmauniv...tml#what

Of course, this is based on real plasma physics unlike the pseudo-plasma in which jonesdumb believes.


Nope. Absolutely nothing to do with Q-N, which just goes to show how ignorant you are of the subject. Like I said - you need to give up. Your cult boasts zero plasma physicists for a reason. I quote real plasma physicists, you link to an anonymous page on a woo site! Sums it up, really!

Sep 10, 2019
"Wherever charged particles flow in a neutralizing medium, such as free electrons in a background of ions, the charged particle flow or current produces a ring of magnetic field around the current, pinching the plasma into multi-filamentary strands of conduction currents."
http://plasmauniv...tml#what

Of course, this is based on real plasma physics unlike the pseudo-plasma in which jonesdumb believes.


Nope. Absolutely nothing to do with Q-N, which just goes to show how ignorant you are of the subject. Like I said - you need to give up. Your cult boasts zero plasma physicists for a reason. I quote real plasma physicists, you link to an anonymous page on a woo site! Sums it up, really!

You quote plasma ignoramuses who have never seen a plasma in a lab, I quote plasma physicists who have decades of laboratory experience.

Sep 10, 2019
You quote plasma ignoramuses who have never seen a plasma in a lab, I quote plasma physicists who have decades of laboratory experience.


You have quoted nothing, you ignorant clown. Not a plasma physicist on the planet will tell you that plasmas are not quasi-neutral. Zero.

Sep 10, 2019
Wherever charged particles flow in a neutralizing medium, such as free electrons in a background of ions,


You see, what you have there is a flow of electrons that is moving in the rest frame of the ions. And that indeed would constitute a current. However, that is not what is happening in the solar wind where, for the vast majority of time and space, the ions and electrons are co-moving.

Sep 10, 2019
A World Not Far Removed From This World

Protons and electrons in this solar wind
Castro, There cannot be a net current leaving the Sun
It would become charged up to the opposite sign of the current
That would not end well

Castrogiovanni
This world not far removed from this world
When you were
Jonesdave

You said electron and protons
Flow
Side by side
In this solar wind
Without interacting

This means
When
Electrons negative charge is flowing from this sun
Apparently building up a positively charged sun
This positive charge is also flowing from this sun

This means the sun does not build up a positive charge
We have a circuitous currant flowing from this sun

Positive ions
And
Negative ions
Flowing from this sun

Carried in this solar wind to planet earth
For these are not our words, Castrogiovanni
Are not Castrogiovanni words, Castrogiovanni
For these are jonesdave's words, Castrogiovanni

p.s. surely a pointless exercises in the semantics of avatars if ever there was one

Sep 10, 2019
^^^^^^Dafuq are you on about, you utter clown?

Sep 10, 2019
We feel your pain castro, jimmybobber

jimmybobber> Castro know what's he's talking about. You should actually listen to him.
I totally understand his limited patience for you morons.

We totally sympathise with your foibles castro
Or is it jimmybobber
For in this cold phys.org world anew
It's difficult to tell if jimmybobber is complementing castro
While keeping this pretence of jimmybobber
For there are sure signs which is assigned seniority

Nick name:
jimmybobber
Member since:
January 20, 2014
Comments:
490

Or

Nick name:
Castrogiovanni
Member since:
March 2, 2019
Comments:
2480

For like a differential equation
The mathematics speak volumes
For neglecting past lives
We have Castrogiovanni, a mere babe in arms at 7 months of age with 2480 Comments to his name
Whereas
We have jimmybobber, a prolific commentator at 5 years 9 months with 490 Comments to his name

Like two half's of a well balanced equation!

Sep 10, 2019
Wherever charged particles flow in a neutralizing medium, such as free electrons in a background of ions,


You see, what you have there is a flow of electrons that is moving in the rest frame of the ions. And that indeed would constitute a current. However, that is not what is happening in the solar wind where, for the vast majority of time and space, the ions and electrons are co-moving.

This is just an illegitimate claim by you, ions and electrons are not "co-moving". There are in fact at least three populations of electrons with different speed/energy levels in the solar wind.

Sep 10, 2019
@Cantthink

I quote plasma physicists who have decades of laboratory experience.

So fucking what.

Sep 10, 2019
This is just an illegitimate claim by you, ions and electrons are not "co-moving". There are in fact at least three populations of electrons with different speed/energy levels in the solar wind.


No it is not. Those electrons, woo boy, are accompanied by ions! You think they just magically dissociate themselves from the ions and go walkabout? Lol. You really should stick to mythology.

Sep 10, 2019
This is just an illegitimate claim by you, ions and electrons are not "co-moving". There are in fact at least three populations of electrons with different speed/energy levels in the solar wind.


No it is not. Those electrons, woo boy, are accompanied by ions! You think they just magically dissociate themselves from the ions and go walkabout? Lol. You really should stick to mythology.

Yeah moron, the reason why it is called plasma is due to the free electrons and ions. Who puts on your pants?

Sep 10, 2019
Yeah moron, the reason why it is called plasma is due to the free electrons and ions. Who puts on your pants?


I know they are free, you idiot! That is why I said dissociate from the IONS. Rather than dissociate themselves from NEUTRALS. Comprende? Each electron is surrounded by ions and other electrons, giving a push-pull effect that keeps the flow together. This is undergrad stuff! Why would a bunch of electrons leave that flow, thereby dissociating themselves from the ions?
Answer? They don't. Your knowledge of the subject is abysmal.

SELF-INDUCED SCATTERING OF STRAHL ELECTRONS IN THE SOLAR WIND
Verscharen, D. et al.
https://arxiv.org...2832.pdf

At least try to understand it.

Sep 10, 2019
Notes from jonesdumb;
"Those electrons, woo boy, are accompanied by ions! You think they just magically dissociate themselves from the ions and go walkabout?"

"That is why I said dissociate from the IONS."

Two contradictory comments from jonesdumb... then says...

"Why would a bunch of electrons leave that flow, thereby dissociating themselves from the ions?"

So which is it jonesdumb, because you seem terribly confused.


Sep 10, 2019
Notes from jonesdumb;
"Those electrons, woo boy, are accompanied by ions! You think they just magically dissociate themselves from the ions and go walkabout?"

"That is why I said dissociate from the IONS."

Two contradictory comments from jonesdumb... then says...

"Why would a bunch of electrons leave that flow, thereby dissociating themselves from the ions?"

So which is it jonesdumb, because you seem terribly confused.



Nope, you are the only one confused. And wrong. Again. Stick to mythology, and then I wouldn't have to keep dumbing down plasma physics to the level where I expect a ten year old to understand it.

Sep 10, 2019
When spacecraft were sent to Saturn

Voyagers 1 and 2 sent home Saturn's rotation
This planet rotated once every 10 hours and 40 minutes.

Then Cassini spacecraft arrived 23 years later to study
This period had changed by 6 minutes

Saturn's interior is composed of a core of iron–nickel and rock
Saturn is to massive for its atmosphere to measurably change its rotation period

Sep 11, 2019
@Cantthink

I quote plasma physicists who have decades of laboratory experience.

So fucking what.


And the problem there is that practically all laboratory plasmas have a magnetic Reynolds number, Rm, < 1. This is nothing like a true reflection of the vast majority of astrophysical plasmas, which have Rm >> 1. The Rm tells us how capable the plasma is of conduction. The higher the number, the more one can use the frozen-in concept (given the usual provisos). In a lab, you cannot do this. And therefore any scaling up of such plasmas to astronomical scales is illusory. There are exceptions. By definition, magnetic reconnection occurs where Rm is low, and frozen-in breaks down. So, lab demonstrations of it are valid.
The problem with the EU crowd is that none of them actually have a scooby about plasma physics. Particularly as it relates to astrophysical plasmas.

Sep 11, 2019
not exactly ROUND, but possibly more pear shaped?
You see yourself in everything, dont you pussytard? This is called 'egocentric'.
Perhaps the northern hemisphere is clocked at 10 hrs. 40 mins. and the southern hemisphere is clocked at 10 hrs. 46 mins. That would account for that extra 6 minutes they found. That slight bulge in the southern or the northern would take slightly longer to rotate
-which would mean the core is all twisted up like your favorite staple, the twizzler. Only after millions of years, something would have to give. Like your corset, no?

Sep 11, 2019
Just for clarity, this is a definition and explanation of the magnetic Reynolds number;

https://en.wikipe...s_number

The solar wind has (iirc) an Rm of ~ 260 000.

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