Giant telescope project in Hawaii delayed by protests

Mauna Kea is volcano is sacred to Native Hawaiians
Mauna Kea is volcano is sacred to Native Hawaiians

Anger is brewing on the Big Island of Hawaii over plans to build a giant telescope on a dormant volcano that is highly sacred to the region's native population.

For months, hundreds of protesters have delayed the start of construction on Mauna Kea volcano of the so-called Thirty Meter Telescope, or TMT, which astronomers say will have a dozen times the resolution of the Hubble Space Telescope.

The demonstrators, who have converged on the site peacefully, argue that the $1.4 billion project would sit on a volcano that is sacred to Native Hawaiians and would harm the environment.

Celebrities like Dwayne Johnson, Jason Momoa and Bruno Mars have lent their support to the protesters.

"What I realized today, and obviously I've been following this for years now, is that it's bigger than a ," Johnson, who lived in Hawaii as a child, reportedly said when he visited the site earlier this summer.

"It's humanity. It's culture," he said.

Work on the project—set to be completed by 2027—was supposed to start in 2015 but has been hampered by repeated protests.

"Construction has been delayed for years because of this situation," Christophe Dumas, a French astronomer and head of operations at TMT, told AFP. "The cost has also risen significantly... and the process to obtain a construction permit lasted 10 years."

The central region of the Trifid Nebula is shown in this photo taken by the Gemini North 8-meter Telescope on Mauna Kea
The central region of the Trifid Nebula is shown in this photo taken by the Gemini North 8-meter Telescope on Mauna Kea

Protest leaders say the consortium of scientists behind the project can build their scope on a less controversial site, including on a mountain in Spain's Canary Islands, where they say it would be a win-win situation for everyone.

Dumas argues, however, that Mauna Kea "remains the ideal site" in the Northern Hemisphere because of its altitude—13,796 feet (4,205 meters) above sea level—as well as its remoteness and clear skies which make it one of the best places on the planet for astronomical observatories.

The new telescope, according to scientists, would enable astronomers to see "forming galaxies at the very edge of the observable universe, near the beginning of time."

Already, Mauna Kea, which means White Mountain, is home to 13 telescopes housed in 12 facilities at or around the summit, which have been the source of a host of new discoveries and scientific studies.

Some question whether one more telescope—albeit a giant one—would make such a big difference.

The answer is a resounding "yes" from opponents.

'Enough is enough'

"I talked to the leaders of the opposition and they made it real clear that not only is it too big, but it's just one too many," said Greg Chun, executive director of Mauna Kea stewardship at the University of Hawaii. "They tell me we have shared this mountain long enough. Enough is enough."

Visitors look at a scaled down model of the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT) on display during a science exhibition in Bangalore in
Visitors look at a scaled down model of the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT) on display during a science exhibition in Bangalore in July 2019

He said Native Hawaiians have repeatedly expressed concerns about the development of the mountain but their complaints have, for the most part, fallen on deaf ears.

Scientists began flocking to Mauna Kea after a tsunami in 1960 devastated communities along the base of the volcano and , in a bid to revive the economy, began a drive to attract astronomers.

"From the very beginning, the development of astronomy has raised concerns about the development of the mountain," Chun said. "So it's not something new."

But many observers say the Mauna Kea debate goes beyond just a telescope and reflects deep-seated resentment by some Native Hawaiians over past abuses and the legacy of colonialism in the Hawaiian islands.

Jonathan Osorio, an expert on Hawaiian culture and a longtime opponents of the planned telescope, insists that he and fellow protesters are not opposed to science but they object to telescopes being built on sacred land.

Dumas for his part argues that the telescope is being used as a tool to pressure authorities to seek more autonomy for the .

"The telescope would not sit atop the mountain and will be visible from only a small section (14 percent) of the island," he said.

He said his team has gone to great lengths to respect local custom and tradition but the project now needs to urgently get off the ground.

"We can't wait much longer and the next few weeks are going to be critical," he said.


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Hawaii telescope protesters don't back down after arrests

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Sep 28, 2019
As usual ignorant people obstructing the progress of science.

Sep 28, 2019
"Anger is brewing on the Big Island of Hawaii over plans to build a giant telescope on a dormant volcano that is highly sacred to the region's native population."

-Anger is brewing around the world over people who value superstition over science. These religionists and the politicians who are exploiting their ignorance should show some concrete indication that whatever gods or spirits who might live there actually object to these scopes. Yes give us a sign or STFU.

From the web
"What is really at stake, however, is a conflict between two ways of knowing and being in the world. For many Native Hawaiians and other Indigenous peoples, sacredness is not merely a concept or label. It is a lived experience of oneness and connectedness with the natural and spiritual worlds. It is as common sense as believing in gravity."

-So? One is real and the other isn't. If we honored all religious beliefs we would condone human sacrifice and genital mutilation. What's that? Circumcision?

Sep 28, 2019
Well said, TheGhostofOtto1923.

Sep 28, 2019
Perhaps science supporters should organize a boycott of Hawaii. If all science supporters stopped going on Hawaii vacations, it might have some impact. Tourism is a full 20+ percent of their economy.

For my part, I have never been to Hawaii and now do not plan to go. My last vacation (a year ago) was to San Pedro de Atacama in Chile - a place that supports astronomy in a big way. They get my dollars and the native Hawaiians can go fish (literally).

Sep 28, 2019
The article gives the impression that Greg Chun (whom I know well) is siding with the protestors.

He's not. He's describing their point of view, not supporting it. Greg is commendably neutral.

I've been immersed in Mauna Kea matters for years, and know it and its history well.

It's a great pity that publicity-seeking celebrities have shown up, mouthed platitudes about issues on which they are ignorant, and left.

Finally, the oft-cited canard that the mountain itself is sacred is, well, a canard. Certain parts of Mauna Kea are importantly sacred. But the entire mountain? No. The fuss is about less than 1% of the mountain.

Finally, any reader looking for "other voices" would do well to go here:
http://envisionma...-report/

where the "soft voices" representing thousands of Big Islanders for whom Mauna Kea is tremendously important may be heard.

Observatories and protestors are not the only stakeholders.


Sep 28, 2019
Considering those "Scientists" are a pack of thieving maggots that don't even understand the ground under their feet let alone the Universe we can see.

I have to say Fuck Off and Leave those people Alone!.

We do not need to see the edge of the Universe.
Let them keep Mauna Kea in the state they want to bloody keep it!.

Build a better telescope in space FFS!.

Sep 29, 2019
"Considering those "Scientists" are a pack of thieving maggots that don't even understand the ground under their feet let alone the Universe we can see."

Written like a true dumbass.

Sep 29, 2019

-So? One is real and the other isn't. If we honored all religious beliefs we would condone human sacrifice and genital mutilation. What's that? Circumcision?

This will be the 14th telescope for scientists and the end of the mountain for these people. I believe that should settle any debate as to who truly are the righteous zealots, don't you? But hey, it's all for "real" science, and so well worth mutilating that remaining 1% of the mountain, and sacrificing those superstitious heathens' beliefs. What's that? Sanctimony?

Sep 29, 2019
@antigoracle you have no idea what you're talking about. If the TMT is built, 3 observatories will come down. Decommissioning studies for the CSO are already underway.

If you think the observatories are "mutilating" the mountain then you've clearly never been there, or looked very closely at any images.

None of the current observatories and certainly not the TMT's siting plan impinge on any "sacred" sites, nor do they obscure any viewplanes, nor do they affect groundwater, nor do they affect any endangered species.

The protestors claim all these things, but they are lying. There was a major legal proceeding known as the "contested case," and if you're really interested (which I doubt you are) you can quickly find the summary and proceedings (several hundred pages, probably too many for you to read) and you'll discover the reality of what's up there.

Really, just the smallest bit of research will show you the way to understanding. But I wouldn't bet five cents you'll do it.

Sep 29, 2019
@wailuku1943
So, why not just replace one of those 3 observatories with the TMT?
I am imagine with the existing foundation in place already it might just be cheaper and faster?

Sep 29, 2019
@antigoracle just one more thing. Work on your reading comprehension.

Nowhere will you find anything about any "remaining 1% of the mountain."

The facts are that about 99% of the mountain is untouched by astronomy. Yes, there's ranching on the lower slopes, and at the 9600' foot level there are some visitor structures, and down in the Saddle at the 7000' level there are structures and a very large and active Army training base, complete with living artillery firing, tracked vehicles, helicopters, Ospreys, and a very large number of important archaeological sites.

Not a peep from the protestors any of that.

But bottom line for this comment is that you couldn't be more wrong about "remaining 1%."

Take a look via Google Earth,

Sep 29, 2019
@wailuku1943
So, why not just replace one of those 3 observatories with the TMT?
I am imagine with the existing foundation in place already it might just be cheaper and faster?

Wrong size, wrong places and wrong everything.

Gotta love how, in a matter that's been legislated, has been to court, has been negotiated, and is seriously vexing, and is also tearing our island apart socially -- that you have the perfect solution. Easy-peasy.

I have open channels to the Governor, the Mayor, some observatory directors, and I even know a few of the protestors personally.

I'll make sure they know that you've solved the problem!

Yay you.

Sep 29, 2019
@wailuku1943
I apologize about the 1% bit, I misconstrued your post and included it in mine, at the last second, without checking. I've only been to Maui and so my opinion is biased by my impression of what I saw there. If you can, I would appreciate you pointing me to information as to "Wrong size, wrong places and wrong everything", you mentioned.
Thanks.

Sep 29, 2019
Seriously, antigoracle, just use Google and Google Earth. Tons of information's out there.

The observatories that are coming down are smaller, and are sited in places where the TMT would obstruct viewplanes. The TMT needs about 5 acres -- the others are much smaller.

Begin here:

https://maunakeao...ies.org/

There are a couple of long shots showing most of the observatories. The TMT would be behind all of them, and at a lower altitude.

Of the three on the highest ridge (CFHT, Gemini N, UH88 and UKIRT), only UKIRT will be coming down (at least that's the plan so far as I know) and there's not room on that ridge for anything else.

Another site that's interesting is the weather site

http://www.eao.ha...weather/

which shows many webcams. The CFHT webcam videos (you have to dig a little for them) are spectacular.

On Mauna Loa (across the Saddle) there's a nice webcam pointed at Mauna Kea.

https://www.esrl....hcam.jpg


Sep 29, 2019
Apologies again @wailuku1943, the escalating seriousness of the situation, gave me the misguided notion, that your words were founded in some professional study into those 3 sites. I guess I'll just have to accept your "expert" opinion. I most certainly hope you used your, open channels to the Governor, Mayor, observatory directors, and few of personally known protestors, to ensure they are knowing, so that they don't make the same foolish mistake as I.
Thanks again, for sharing.

Sep 29, 2019
None of the current observatories and certainly not the TMT's siting plan impinge on any "sacred" sites, nor do they obscure any viewplanes, nor do they affect groundwater, nor do they affect any endangered species
So do you feel that these religionists fear for their own credibility and not the sacred status of some part of the mountain then? They really hate science that much do they?

Sep 29, 2019
Really, just the smallest bit of research will show you the way to understanding. But I wouldn't bet five cents you'll do it.

So, my 5 cents research of the aforementioned legal proceedings: https://cases.jus...40934530
Reveals -
No mention of groundwater nor endangered species.
One mention of view planes in the list of guidance, by the university, in choosing the site.
3 mentions of sacred, all in the context of the opposition.

So, it appears the research wailuku1943 did, was the same as that which led to his claim of "Wrong size, wrong places and wrong everything." That is, blatant lies.

Sep 29, 2019
Get serious, they want to build a better telescope than Hubble because of low ambient light ?

They are full of shit and will sue the people of Mauna Kea the second they need to build a road or put in some lighting.

DON'T TRUST THEM!
KEEP YOUR LAND SAFE FROM THOSE THIEVING MAGGOTS!

Sep 29, 2019
Notice that there are resorts built on the sites of ancient villages, battlegrounds, and even temples, and no one complained. This is likely because resort chains can make 'charitable contributions' and hand out lucrative no-work jobs to native leadership. Scientists of course don't have those resources so they're fair game.

Keep in mind that prior to the arrival of the Europeans the native Hawaiians never visited the peak, never built anything there, never left any offerings, and really evidenced little interest in the peak itself, much less the minuscule scrap of land the telescope will occupy.

Sep 29, 2019
Yeah Cusco, you know so much. So, tell us who made 'charitable contributions' to the native leadership for the 13 telescopes that are already there?

And, as for your last bit of tripe you can see just how stupid you are by looking here - https://dlnr.hawa...-AMP.pdf

Sep 29, 2019
antigoracle -- your internet searching abilities could use a tuneup.

This is what you want:

https://dlnr.hawa...osal.pdf

and you can find the depositions from all sides here:

https://dlnr.hawa.../active/

I have read every.single.one.of.these, plus the big PDF. Get back to me when you have.

Sep 29, 2019
Keep in mind that prior to the arrival of the Europeans the native Hawaiians never visited the peak, never built anything there, never left any offerings, and really evidenced little interest in the peak itself, much less the minuscule scrap of land the telescope will occupy.

Sorry, quite false. There are shrines and burials up there, adze stone quarries, shelters . . . all sorts of interesting and ancient sites.

One thing that the protestors don't like to talk about is that commoners weren't allowed up there. And the protestors are not ali'i nui nor are they kahuna nui.

Take a spin through the PDF I linked antioragle to, for the archaeological surveys.

Important point is -- none of them are being impacted by the TMT.

Sep 29, 2019
Yeah Cusco, you know so much. So, tell us who made 'charitable contributions' to the native leadership for the 13 telescopes that are already there?


I'm not aware of any funny business in relation to the observatories, but as for Cusco's remarks about resorts, etc., well . . . it's not talked about.

Forty-fifty years ago, construction companies just did pretty much what they wanted. There was some shockingly bad behavior especially with regard to burials. That doesn't happen any more.

Sep 29, 2019
None of the current observatories and certainly not the TMT's siting plan impinge on any "sacred" sites, nor do they obscure any viewplanes, nor do they affect groundwater, nor do they affect any endangered species
So do you feel that these religionists fear for their own credibility and not the sacred status of some part of the mountain then? They really hate science that much do they?

No. This whole mess is really about political power and restoring the Hawaiian Kingdom. They have very successfully -- I'd say "masterfully" -- pushed the false narrative that it's all about the TMT.

To paraphrase what Ben Franklin allegedly said about patriotism, "Sacredness is the last resort of the scoundrel."

Sep 29, 2019
So, it appears the research wailuku1943 did, was the same as that which led to his claim of "Wrong size, wrong places and wrong everything." That is, blatant lies.


Take a look at Figure 6 in that Final-TMT-AMP document you found.

You can see the outline of the TMT building.
Now compare that to CSO, SMA, and UKIRT.
Big differences in footprint.
If you understand how to read topo maps, also check out the contour lines. TMT will be sited in a relatively flat area, and also roughly 500' lower than the summit and CFHT, Gemini, and the others. The TMT siting was chose to minimize its visibility from the rest of the island.

Thus, as I said, "wrong size, wrong places, wrong everything."

Let's not even talk about how a 5 acre 18 story building can somehow magically be dropped into a small observatory. Absurd.

Oct 01, 2019
What is the objective of science? Harassment of people or welfare of people? Who is responsible for keeping the native population uneducated and intellectually-challenged?

Oct 01, 2019
What is the objective of science? Harassment of people or welfare of people? Who is responsible for keeping the native population uneducated and intellectually-challenged?

Nobody. On our island we have public schools -- they aren't great, but they are OK. There are no barriers whatsoever keeping students of native origin from schools. In fact, they are required to attend, just like everybody else.

The TMT has been and will be contributing roughly $1,000,000 each year to the island's school system and students, with large amounts set aside for scholarships and other assistance for children of native ancestry.

Oct 01, 2019
One of the problems is that TMT is the recipient of the punishment for the past bad actions of astronomers, who paved over sacred sites, poured sewage on the mountain, left piles of trash, and made under-the-table deals with the University of Hawaii to get the land for less than market rate.

Their best path forward is to either go to their second choice location or perhaps move to Haleakala on Maui where there are several other observatories with a slightly less fraught history. If they really want to build on Mauna Kea, then they need to work to get UH divested from managing the mountain and stop slow-walking the demolition of the unused telescopes; insisting that the other telescopes pay a fair price to use the mountain would also be a good step.

Oct 01, 2019
antigoracle, here is the reference that you want. It details how the astronomers decimated the weiku bug population (found nowhere else on Earth) and destroyed 1/4 of its habitat. It also describes several other crimes committed by the astronomers and UH:
http://files.hawa...98-6.pdf

The follow-up 2014 audit shows that they have made some progress (and singles TMT out as an example of how things should be done) but notes that much is left to do.

http://www.malama...4-07.pdf

Oct 01, 2019
Anonym -- you go far beyond what's in the (old) reports you offer. No sacred sites were paved over. There was a sewage spill (which isn't the same as "poured sewage," really).

You left out the 250 ml of mercury spilled years ago.

UH did a poor job in the past. Nobody disputes that. But you'll have a hard time finding anything wrong in the last 10-15 years.

Telescope demolition needs EIS work. Nothing's being slow-walked except that there's no hurry to remove the observatories if the TMT isn't built. They're doing no harm.

Finally, the wekiu. The wekiu is doing fine, according to the world's authority on the wekiu (Dr Jesse Eiben) Here's Jesse's report:
https://dlnr.hawa...vidence/
You want Witness Statement 9.
Here's an excerpt "The limited number of wekiu bugs that are likely to be killed by the construction activities is so small that they could be replaced by one (1) hour of normal . . . propogation."

Finally . . . "crimes?" Come on.

Oct 01, 2019
Yes, sacred sites were paved over. Specifically, Pu'us Poliahu, Wekiu, Kea, and Hau'oki ( https://dlnr.hawa...ails.pdf ).

UH did a poor job in the past, which is why the protestors don't trust them to get it right now. After all, UH has demonstrated less than a decade of almost adequate management versus nearly fifty years of inadequate. If you don't punish malefactors, then what is to make others follow the law?

And yes, spilling the mercury, pouring the sewage, destroying the sacred sites, piling up the trash, killing the weiku bugs - all of those were crimes, as were the under-the-table deals made between UH and the telescope operators.

The telescopes are abandoned and not in use. So why not demolish them and restore the mountain?

The attitude of "well, it wasn't us and even if it was it wasn't that bad and even if it was it was a long time ago" is exactly why people are protesting.

Oct 01, 2019
And WRT the weiku bugs, please note that your expert is describing the effects of TMT construction and NOT the effects of previous telescope construction (which is what the 1998 audit described).

A key paragraph from the audit is:
"We found that the University of Hawaii 's management of the Mauna Kea Science Reserve is inadequate to ensure the protection of natural resources. The university focused primarily on the development of Mauna Kea and tied the benefits gained to its research program. ... The university neglected historic preservation, and the cultural value of Mauna Kea was largely unrecognized. Efforts to gather information on the Weiku bug came after damage had already been done. Trash from construction was cleaned up only after concerns were raised by the public.Old testing equipment constructed in the early years of development has not been removed as required by the lease agreement."

Oct 01, 2019
Anonym869597

The natives should clean up the trash...that will give them something constructive to do, instead of delaying a scientific project.

Oct 01, 2019
Anonym869597

The natives should clean up the trash...that will give them something constructive to do, instead of delaying a scientific project.


No, the astronomers, who created the trash, should do so. Or do you not believe in responsibility for one's actions?

Oct 01, 2019
guptm

"Who is responsible for keeping the native population uneducated and intellectually-challenged?"

Your comment is non sensible.

Oct 01, 2019
Thanks Anonym, I was leaning towards accepting the telescope and you stepped up just in time.

Nice one wailuku, deceit by omission. It was those court documents that were the masterful touch. They sure made your case that the Rightful population were lying. However, I've seen it once too many, to not recognize a desperate people trying to hold on to the last remnants of their identity. That destroys people more than any mental or physical abuse. It sickens me and now I am more convinced than ever, that telescope must not be built.

Oct 01, 2019
Anonym. I suppose we're talking past each other. I'm not a UH apologist. I'm a realist, and I know Mauna Kea very well (I've been knocking around on it for 65 years).

Come over some time and I'll show you around.

I'll point out that the document you linked to (Mauna Kea Huakahi trails) is an advocacy document, prepared by students for the Mauna Kea Hui -- one of the groups opposing astronomy and particularly the TMT. That's not to say it doesn't raise important points -- it does. But it's hardly neutral.

This is why I've been urging interested people to look at the links I gave. Everything is available there: documents by the protestors, by the supporters, by the neutral folks -- everything.

I continue to reject the contention that the sites on the pu'u you name were paved over. Yes, there are assertions to that effect. And of course the observatories were built on paved-over areas. But there were no sacred sites except in the eyes of those who claim the whole summit is sacred.

Oct 01, 2019
wailuku,

Do you claim that the state audits are also "advocacy documents"? Or are you willing to admit that the astronomers and UH have done a poor job of protecting the mountain?

As for who claims the whole summit is sacred, that would be the indigenous Hawai'ians. And the great thing about America is that *you* don't get to decide what is sacred for other people; *they* do.

That's why I'm in favor of the TMT being built in the Canary Islands, where the TMT siting committee has said it will be able to do the science it has been designed for.

Oct 01, 2019
Oh, look - here's an image showing where the astronomers have paved over part of Pu'u Poliahu:
https://commons.w...u_01.jpg

And here's one of Pu'u Weiku, showing the same thing:
https://www.flick...03186953

Still want to claim that the document is unreliable, wailuku?

Oct 01, 2019
Anonym -- Pu'u Wekiu is the summit. What you're looking at is a footpath that's been there for many years. On Pu'u Poliahu, the picture you're showing is of a graded road. No pavement in sight, unless you mean the pavement in the foreground, which is not on Pu'u Poliahu.

I already said that in the past, UH did a poor job. Not news to anyone. And no, the state documents aren't advocacy documents. But they are out of date and refer to the past.

As for the whole summit and its sacredness -- no, I don't agree with you at all. There are sacred sites -- I said already that there's not the slightest doubt about that.

The great thing about America is that church-and-state thing, wouldn't you say? About religions not making governmental decisions?

Anyway, this is pointless. Tell you what, though. Why not download and take a spin through the document I linked to way up at the top, the Envision Maunakea report. I'd like you to hear what people who are not the protestors have to say.

Oct 01, 2019
OK, anonym. Just one more thing because I have to go to the mainland in a couple of hours.
In the document we're talking about (Mauna Kea Huakahi trails) go to p. 13, where you'll find a map with blue lines, purporting to show drainage. Up at the top, and to the right, that's reasonable.

However, the blue line beginning at Lake Waiau (Pohakuloa Gulch) and the one to the right (Waikahalulu) are dry. They were formed by glacial melting at the end of the Pleistocene.

They rarely carry any water at all (summit precip is about 12"/year, not 6").

The map would lead you to believe that they carry water ad therefore in some magical way toxic liquid waste from the summit will flow down and cause trouble.

Impossible. But hey -- marked in blue! Must be flowing water!

Finally, did you notice that the document is undated? And prepared by landscape architects, not scientists? And there are absolutely no references or sources? It's very nicely put together, but a scientific work -- no way.

Oct 02, 2019
wailuku,

So you claim that grading a road over a sacred space is somehow less awful than paving it? Good to know.

As for your repeated "this was all a long time ago", it wasn't. Astronomers continued to spill materials on the mountain even after the 1998 audit was made public. As the 2014 audit (a mere five years ago - or do you claim that, too, is a long time ago?) makes clear.

Since you agree that UH did a poor job, why do you advocate for them to keep doing the job? Especially given the perverse incentive they have to do a poor one?

As for churches not making government decisions, you are right. What you miss is the other side, where the government cannot interfere in religion without a compelling reason. Looking at the stars is hardly a compelling reason.


Oct 02, 2019
I've read the TMT documents. I've even noted that they are mostly doing things properly. The problem is that people such as yourself think that this somehow gives the astronomers a free pass to ignore the awful things in the past. It doesn't.

As I wrote above, if TMT really wants to get the project moving, they should:
1) Work to remove UH from management of the mountain. UH has amply demonstrated that they are incompetent at best.

2) Work to speed up the removal of the unused and obsolete telescopes from the mountain even if TMT won't be built there to show that the astronomers have learned respect for the area.

3) Work to get the other telescopes to pay a fair price to use the mountain. A dollar a year isn't a fair price by any measure.

4) Move to another mountain so that the next group of astronomers might get the chance to build on this one. There's another mountain in Hawai'i almost as good as this one, and then there's their back-up of Las Palmas which will work.

Oct 02, 2019
In the document we're talking about (Mauna Kea Huakahi trails) go to p. 13, where you'll find a map with blue lines, purporting to show drainage. Up at the top, and to the right, that's reasonable.

However, the blue line beginning at Lake Waiau (Pohakuloa Gulch) and the one to the right (Waikahalulu) are dry. They were formed by glacial melting at the end of the Pleistocene.

They rarely carry any water at all (summit precip is about 12"/year, not 6").

The map would lead you to believe that they carry water ad therefore in some magical way toxic liquid waste from the summit will flow down and cause trouble.


No, the map says that those are "gulches, streams, and rivers", which just happens to be correct. And if liquid waste is spilled in a gulch, it will flow downhill, no magic required. So the people you denigrate as not being scientists seem to understand it better than you do.

Oct 02, 2019
I don't know which is worse -- being stuck in LAX for 8 hours or reading your and antioragle's comments.

If you think a dry gulch at high altitude in an alpine stone desert will carry anything that can possibly be spilled at the summit for more than a few meters you're nuts.

And the heads of the two gulches are so shallow they are all but impossible to find. I've walked there. You know, that "on the ground" knowledge you're completely lacking?

I have no idea what antioragle's "deceit by omission" even means. That I didn't cite the UH audits? I pointed to the mother lode of relevant documents. You're not interested in them? Your problem, not mine.

Both of you seem to believe that UH manages the observatories. It doesn't. It manages land and infrastructure.

http://www.malamamaunakea.org/

OMKM does it, and OMKM was formed to make sure past mistakes weren't repeated. They haven't been.

Sorry, guys. I'm out of this one. Maybe when I get back to Hilo.

Oct 02, 2019
I think that a gulch can carry spills. Actually, I know this, based on my field experience as a geophysicist. I also think that you are getting desperate, based on your shifting from "those aren't rivers" to "they can't go very far!" In case you have forgotten, the observatories are supposed to be zero-spill facilities and any spill must be cleaned up.

I think that UH grants the observatories the right to operate on the mountain. If you check the state audits, you will find that is correct.

As for the past mistakes, they have been repeated. Or do you claim that the observatories haven't had any spills or left trash on the mountain since 1998? (You'd be wrong.) Or perhaps you claim that the observatories are now paying a fair price for their land? (They aren't.)

Finally, did it somehow slip your attention that the OMKM is governed by people nominated by UH? In business, that's called a shell company.
http://www.malama...nt-board


Oct 02, 2019
OMKM was formed to make sure past mistakes weren't repeated. They haven't been.


You might want to read the OMKM documents before making such claims. Here's a good example (p. i, p. 5, p. 22, p. 28). What is particularly egregious is that there was a hydraulic fluid spill in 2009 that was not reported until 2016. So much for "They haven't been"!
http://www.malama...ase1.pdf

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