Scientists explore the evolution of animal homosexuality

Scientists explore the evolution of animal homosexuality
Sphen and Magic, two male Gentoo penguins, recently made headlines when they ‘adopted’ an egg. Gentoos are closely related to Adélie penguins, the species Levick first observed in 1911. After the two penguins bonded and began creating a nest, zookeepers at the Sea Life Sydney Aquarium decided to give them an egg that had been abandoned by a pair of heterosexual penguins in the group. On October 19, 2018, Baby Sphengic was born. Credit: Imperial College London

Imperial researchers are using a new approach to understand why same-sex behaviour is so common across the animal kingdom.

In 1910, a team of scientists set off on the Terra Nova Expedition to explore Antarctica. Among them was George Murray Levick, a zoologist and photographer who would be the first researcher to study the world's largest Adélie penguin colony. He chronicled the animals' daily activities in great detail.

In his notebooks, he described their sexual , including sex between male birds. However, none of these notes would appear in Levick's published papers. Concerned by the graphic content, he only printed 100 copies of Sexual Habits of the Adélie Penguin to circulate privately. The last remaining copy was recently unearthed providing valuable insights into animal research.

But forays into animal homosexuality research long predate Levick, with observations published as far back as the 1700s and 1800s. More than 200 years later, research has moved past some of the taboos those early researchers faced and shown that homosexuality is much more common than previously thought.

Same- ranging from co-parenting to sex has been observed in over 1,000 species with likely many more as researchers begin to look for the behaviour explicitly. Homosexuality is widespread, with bisexuality even more prevalent across species.

Researchers are now going beyond just observing it though, with researchers at Imperial leading the way in unravelling how, and why, homosexuality is found across nature.

Case study: gentoo penguins

Scientists explore the evolution of animal homosexuality
Spider monkeys are New World primate species for which homosexual behaviour has not been previously reported. In 2018, the first report of sex between males was recorded. “It’s interesting because there was this kind of premise that because Old World primates are more closely related to humans, you wouldn’t really see this type of behaviour in New World primates, but there they are,” says Clive. This suggests that homosexual activity is not a recent human construct, in cultural or even in evolutionary terms, but instead occurs along many branches on the tree of life. Credit: Shane Rounce via Unsplash

Overturning Darwin's paradox

With this behaviour seen across species from birds and insects to reptiles and mammals – including humans – researchers are trying to understand why.

In the past, homosexual behaviour was often ignored because it supposedly contradicted Darwin's theory of evolution. Scientists argued homosexuality was a sort of 'Darwinian paradox' because it involved sexual behaviour that was non-reproductive. Recent evidence however suggests homosexual behaviour could play important roles in reproduction and evolution.

Among the researchers leading the way is Vincent Savolainen, Professor of Organismic Biology at Imperial. Savolainen is a world-renowned evolutionary biologist who approaches many of the same questions Darwin did, but from a contemporary perspective. Savolainen's contributions range from solving Darwin's "abominable mystery" of flowering plants to elucidating how great white sharks evolved to be super-predatory fast-swimmers.

Savolainen explains: "I tackle big evolutionary biology questions. It doesn't really matter what organism, at the end of the day it's all about how genes have evolved either to produce a species or a new behaviour."

The overarching aim of his lab can be summed up with the saying: "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."

Savolainen has turned this philosophy to 'Darwin's paradox'. In 2016, Savolainen started some work on animal homosexuality, beginning with a chapter on the Evolution of Homosexuality. Since then, he has assembled a collaborative team of researchers to examine the question through field work, genomic sequencing and new theoretical models.

Case study: spider monkeys

Scientists explore the evolution of animal homosexuality
In 1896, French entomologist Henri Gadeau de Kerville published one of the first scientific illustrations of animal homosexuality. His drawing depicted two male scarab beetles copulating and was part of a wave of descriptions of same-sex behaviour in insects that set the stage for animal observations in the 1900s. Credit: Bulletin de la Société entomologique de France (1896)

Into the wild

On Imperial's Silwood Park campus, Savolainen's Ph.D. student Jackson Clive is spending some of his final days in the lab before he heads out for field work. It will be his second of many months-long trips to observe rhesus macaques in the wild. Female homosexuality has been well studied in Japanese macaques, but Clive's research would examine how homosexual behaviour differs in males and across environments.

These trips are intense in many ways besides the physical challenges of the bush.

Clive explains: "Behavioural studies take a long time especially for these unpredictable and infrequent behaviours, which includes almost all sexual behaviours. You have to do a lot of sitting around and watching while also being quite alert. It takes quite a lot of effort to recognize these individual primates. In one social group I have to recognize 120 males individually."

Before beginning his Ph.D. research, Clive was studying a family of mountain gorillas in East Africa. He noticed mounting between male gorillas, though that was not the main focus of his research at the time.

"It's just wherever you look. I can give you papers on beetles, spiders, flies, fish, flamingos, geese, bison, deer, gibbons, bats – loads of bats, bats get up to all sorts," he says. "The list is endless."

It's early days for the Imperial research team. Recording homosexual behaviour in the wild and collecting blood samples are the first steps for Clive; the next is sequencing DNA to search for connections between the behaviour and .

Case study: scarab beetles

Scientists explore the evolution of animal homosexuality
This eastern Australian bat species lives in large groups but are segregated by sex outside of breeding season. As such, many bats are likely ‘seasonally bisexual’. Males and females have been observed in sexual and affectionate same-sex behaviour. The acts are characterized by wrapping their large wings around each other, licking and grooming, and nuzzling their heads in each other’s chests. Credit: Thomas Lipke via Unsplash

Beyond the 'gay gene'

What does animal homosexuality look like biologically? It's hard to say.

In 1993 there was a media frenzy over the discovery of the 'gay gene'. This idea stemmed from a study showing a correlation between genetic marker Xq28 and male homosexuality, although there were statistical uncertainties about some of the findings.

Scientists have successfully modelled other complex or polygenic traits like height. There is not a single 'tall' or 'short'. Instead, height is determined by changes across hundreds of genes in combination with environmental factors.

To understand what gives rise to complex traits and behaviours, researchers must identify where the genetic changes take place and what underlying processes are driving them. Then they can see what this should look like in the real world.The biological and hereditary factors of homosexuality are most certainly not tied to a single gene. Researchers aren't searching for one genetic marker or one cause but a combination of factors that give rise to certain behaviours under specific circumstances.

Scientists explore the evolution of animal homosexuality
PhD student Tom Versluys is studying human mate attraction. Credit: Imperial College London

To create models of homosexuality, Savolainen recruited Ewan Flintham as a Ph.D. student in evolutionary biology at Imperial. Flintham previously worked on models for speciation— the formation of new and distinct species in the course of evolution—as well as in fruit flies.

He says: "We have the capacity to model complex behaviours and pull on massive amounts of data. However, creating a complex model isn't beneficial unless it is modelling a useful concept."

The bisexual advantage

There are many theories about why homosexuality is important for reproduction and evolution. Savolainen has outlined some leading models. One is the "bisexual advantage" model where animals with a more fluid sexuality are more likely to reproduce. Savolainen's lab looks at a range of sexual behaviours from strict heterosexuality to homosexuality. Bisexuality may be "an evolutionary optimum phenotype in many species, including humans," according to Savolainen's review.

Other models consider whether a gene is beneficial for a specific sex. For example, if the gene were 'feminizing' in the sense that it would lead to females having more offspring so it would be passed on in spite of being disadvantageous for a male's own reproduction, i.e. being homosexual. Meanwhile, others posit that homosexuality could also play a role in evolution through co-parenting or helping to raise relatives' offspring. These explanations are not exclusive of one another, and it is likely that a combination of factors are important for the evolution of homosexuality.

With these new models, researchers can test many theories in combination and vary the data inputs accordingly. The "golden standard" would use the original genetic and behavioural data from the macaque field work and fit them to different theories to see how each could be applied to other populations and animals.

The primates Savolainen's lab is currently studying are of course closely related to humans. Studying non-human primates is helpful because it provides clearer data and separates the behaviour from culture while at the same time offering new insights on human sexuality and evolution.

Case study: grey headed flying boxes

Credit: Imperial College London

A human connection

Ph.D. student Tom Versluys is looking directly at humans, specifically by studying mate choice in couples. His previous research examined how body-to-limb ratio makes men more attractive. In Savolainen's lab, he's taking a broader and more technical approach. He will create 3-D face models of couples to compare shape, structure, and proportions. Ultimately, the project will combine questionnaires, facial modelling and genetic sequencing to examine similarities between couples and investigate whether mate-choice decisions are being driven by considerations of biological or social compatibility.

Importantly, this will include exploration of homosexual partners in the hope of understanding different mate-choice strategies in reproductive and non-reproductive contexts. Versluys is currently recruiting heterosexual and homosexual couples among Imperial students and staff for his research. If you would like to know how similar you and your partner are (or would just like 3-D models of your faces), please get in touch with him at tmv3318@ic.ac.uk.

Reframing homosexuality

Versluys says: "Homosexuality is still something that's not always well understood among the scientific community and maybe even more poorly understood among the general population. It's currently being reframed, in our lab and elsewhere, as a normal behaviour rather than something that's abhorrent or problematic."

The hope is that as homosexuality is better understood, research will dispel people's misconceptions. However, many of the historical cultural challenges persist. And despite the acknowledgement of how widespread homosexuality is in nature, researchers have to contend with a dearth of research that should have been built up over decades.

Savolainen explains: "It's still risky and unusual research that is difficult to support through traditional funding routes. We're looking for organizations or individuals that believe in this research and are willing to take that risk."


Explore further

Prevalence of homosexuality in men is stable throughout time since many carry the genes

More information: Ewan O. Flintham et al. Interactions between the sexual identity of the nervous system and the social environment mediate lifespan in Drosophila melanogaster, Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences (2018). DOI: 10.1098/rspb.2018.1450

Vincent Savolainen et al. Evolution of Homosexuality, Encyclopedia of Evolutionary Psychological Science (2017). DOI: 10.1007/978-3-319-16999-6_3403-1

Thomas M. M. Versluys et al. The influence of leg-to-body ratio, arm-to-body ratio and intra-limb ratio on male human attractiveness, Royal Society Open Science (2018). DOI: 10.1098/rsos.171790

Citation: Scientists explore the evolution of animal homosexuality (2019, May 2) retrieved 20 July 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2019-05-scientists-explore-evolution-animal-homosexuality.html
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May 02, 2019
Gaydom is clear in the context of the tribe. Chronic overpopulation saps resources and weakens the tribe. Non-procreative sex is a means of regulating growth while maintaining a productive population. Gays can always revert if catastrophe strikes and the tribe needs to replenish itself quickly.

Gaydom may be more prevalent in cities and other areas where perceived overgrowth may trigger epigenetic responses in expectant mothers. Understanding of this may be reflected in the fable of Lot, his daughter, and the angel.

There is a greater tendency for gaydom in younger brothers. This may indicate a mothers desire to limit competition for her firstborn as pops quickly grow past sustainability.

Religions may thwart this perception of overcrowding by creating the illusion of a tribe in the midst of a wilderness full of outsiders.

May 02, 2019
Daughters and angels plural.

"Two angels arrive in Sodom, and Lot shows them hospitality. However, the men of the city gather around Lot's house and demand that he give them the two guests so they could rape them. In response, Lot offers the mob his two daughters instead, noting that they are virgins..." as found in gen19

-The story conveys both the existence of gaydom in cities and the religionists strong aversion to it. It runs directly counter to their mandate of maximizing reproduction for the purposes of outgrowing and overrunning the competition, as does all forms of sex which expend the urge to procreate without result.

This is the REASON why perversion carries the highest penalties of all sins. The religions that were best at maximizing growth are the only ones that are left.

And yes, this is certainly group selection at work.

May 02, 2019
Gaydom is clear in the context of the tribe........blah..blah...blah... Gays can always revert if catastrophe strikes and the tribe needs to replenish itself quickly....

Ahh..the "dark" one, manages to extricate his head from where the sun don't shine, to "illuminate" us with its wisDumb. It's a pity it denies itself the satisfaction of reverting to something with some semblance of empathy. As it must, since there is no catastrophe immense enough, that can befall humanity, which will satisfy the misanthrope.
How unfortunate for it, that its parents chose to have procreative sex. Then again, it was very likely a most unpleasant surprise.

May 02, 2019
Funny how antigoricles mind goes right to anal penetration.

So whats your point then? If none exists then let me invent one for you. Gays in religionist societies have been trapped for millenia in sham marriages and have thus produced many offspring. They may not have enjoyed it (see the myth of the frigid woman) but the alternative, that being living an openly gay lifestyle, wouldve gotten them pilloried or thrown off a roof. "There are no gays in Iran" -Abadijinidadidaninny

-And it may be that, when the need arises to serve the tribe, physical attraction may indeed shift to accomodate. Gays are always so fond of claiming that everybodys a little gay. Perhaps all gays are a little straight as well?

May 02, 2019
Like the underlying branching process makes 2-5 % of closely related species able to crossbreed at any given time, it is not entirely unexpected to see permeable sex distinctions or even confounded sex at similar levels. (Confounded, as in the 1 % of humans that cannot be placed within the peaks of the bi-modal sex distribution.)

When biologists have solved that it may be useful to take a look at the not so common but observable widely-different-species-sex behavior among mostly social mammals. That will be even more difficult to explore, since such behavior often *is* problematic, e.g. dogs, monkeys or dolphins that attempt to force themselves on individuals from other species.

May 02, 2019
It's unfunny how the "dark" one lacks the capacity to recognize innuendo. How could it, when it willingly engulfs itself in the murk of misanthropy. It's, therefore, unsurprising that his entire diatribe betrays its ignorance, to everyone, but itself.

May 03, 2019
Homosexuality I think stems from simple thyroid malfunction during pregnancy. In humans as brain develops in the first trimester. If the foetus is female and the mother has a thyroid irregularity which exposes the developing brain to high levels of testosterone the brain will develop as male in a female body. If the exposure is intermittent or only slightly above normal (what ever that may be) then the degree of development is likewise adjusted. So the degrees of homosexuality are also born. Same thing happens with a male foetus exposed to various levels of oestrogen. The brain develops as female in a male body.
The confounding thing here which needs way more study is what role does environmental estrogenic like chemicals have? Also known as endocrine disrupting chemicals.
Humans are part of the animal kingdom. So what happens to humans happens to animals. That is why we use animals to test things for humans.


May 03, 2019
Loving this. Now watch all the homophobes' heads explode.

Do we get to stop listening to this "unnatural" bullshit anytime soon?

Just for the record, male bottlenose dolphins- tursiops truncatus- are notorious for becoming extremely, hmmm, affectionate, particularly with female trainers. Human female trainers.

Just askin'.

May 03, 2019
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May 03, 2019
Just for the record, male bottlenose dolphins- tursiops truncatus- are notorious for becoming extremely, hmmm, affectionate, particularly with female trainers. Human female trainers.

Just askin'.
So la scheide, you ever hear of bestiality before? Animals do get aroused by humans and vice fursa. But what's this got to do with gaydom? And why is it phobic to discuss the nature and cause of gaydom? Isnt it phobic to be AFRAID to discuss the nature and cause of gaydom? Politically unpopular certainly, but one might speculate that there might be some very unnatural causes for it...

Jus' askin'.

May 03, 2019
[many sexually differentiated characteristics are organized during early life by sex steroids]
"First, multiple sexually differentiated behavioral, physiological, or even morphological traits are significantly different in homosexual and heterosexual populations. Because some of these traits are known to be organized by prenatal steroids, including testosterone, these differences suggest that homosexual subjects were, on average, exposed to atypical endocrine conditions during development.

"Second, clinical conditions associated with significant endocrine changes during embryonic life often result in an increased incidence of homosexuality. It seems therefore that the prenatal endocrine environment has a significant influence on human sexual orientation but a large fraction of the variance in this behavioral characteristic remains unexplained to date."

-And as we know, the environment is full of artificial endocrine disrupters, a recent phenomenon.
Cont>

May 03, 2019
So do you think the researchers from the above study I cited homophobic?

"A wide and varied range of substances are thought to cause endocrine disruption. Chemicals that are known endocrine disruptors include diethylstilbestrol (the synthetic estrogen DES), dioxin and dioxin-like compounds, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), DDT, and some other pesticides."

IF causation between these chemicals and an increase in the incidence of gaydom in the general pop (as well as obesity, metabolic syndrome, mental and physiological problems, etc) could be established, can we imagine what the backlash would be? Trillion Dollar payouts worldwide, economic collapse.

And we can imagine there would be a massive political and media campaign to prevent this, by deeming these conditions normal when in fact only a small percentage of them are. Tobacco coverup x exponential.
Cont>

May 03, 2019
But then a very few of us freethinkers might appreciate the fact that occurrances such as tobacco use by women, the womans movement/contraception/ABORTION, artificial endocrine disruption on a global scale, massive increase in legal/illegal drug use/opioid epidemic, and many others have one principal effect in common - they ALL serve to reduce the BIRTHRATE.

And we might suspect that that's the REASON they exist, together and in concert, at this very critical period in human history when entire ecosystems are on the verge of collapse.

You all think that the antiAGW movement is the salvation of the planet. But that hype effectively disguised the REAL and enduring problem - chronic overgrowth, TOO MANY PEOPLE. A problem that is berring dealt with, massively, quietly, globally while everyone's attention is diverted to a different perspective.
Cont>

May 03, 2019
Did it ever occur to you that AGW is the very best way of shrinking populations on this planet? The most problematic countries are not the wealthy western ones but the southern, tropical, religion-dominated ones with the fastest growing pops. They're the ones producing the most pollution, dumping the most plastic and sewage in the ocean, deforesting and burning the most acreage, extincting the most species.

Soon the regions they occupy may be under water or too hot to inhabit.

Problem solved.

May 03, 2019
So la scheide, you ever hear of bestiality before? Animals do get aroused by humans and vice fursa. But what's this got to do with gaydom?
Because people, as well as animals, get aroused by evolutionarily inappropriate objects. This tendency to try to make up moral rules about it is what gets you into trouble. I'm perfectly happy with people who get aroused by refrigerators or airplanes. You apparently aren't. Would you make the dolphin happy? I would. I wouldn't hesitate a moment. No penetrative sex though; not my thing. And no pictures.

And I'd help the refrigeratorphiliac too.

So, why are you a homophobic?

Just askin'.

May 03, 2019
You apparently aren't
-And where exactly did I say this?
So, why are you a homophobic?
So why are you a shallow, timid, brainless little person?

May 03, 2019
Because you keep making a fuss about it. Maybe you should calm down. If you can.

My attitude is, fuck what or who you wanna as long as it doesn't object. No little kids though; consenting adults, unless the object of your love is something like a refrigerator that isn't ever gonna grow up.

May 03, 2019
Well some of us, including the NCBI researchers I cited, are curious about WHY, and dont much care about the political ramifications of asking that question. And we dont appreciate being called homophobes or racists or bigots just because we may want to know WHY.

Those who dont want to know or are afraid to ask, often end up being implicit in cover ups like the ones I'm talking about. You know, sheep.

You may want to start answering the questions I asked above, if you're curious as well.

May 03, 2019
I'm not curious. I don't really care. I've known about this for decades. It's part of what makes up my attitude.

You seem to care, a lot. So what's wrong with you? Why are you homophobic?

May 03, 2019
I'm not curious. I don't really care. I've known about this for decades. It's part of what makes up my attitude.

You seem to care, a lot. So what's wrong with you? Why are you homophobic?
The author of the paper

"Jacques Balthazartcorresponding author
University of Liège, Groupe Interdisciplinaire de Génoprotéomique Appliquée Neurosciences, Research Group in Behavioral Neuroendocrinology, B-4000 Liège, Belgium
corresponding authorCorresponding author"

-So what do you think is wrong with him little scheide? Why do you think hes homophobic?

And why is it you cant seem to resist being a smelly little troll from time to time? You just bored?

May 03, 2019
I don't think the author of the study is homophobic. I think you are.

Why are you homophobic? And why do you lie so much about what people say?

Speaking of trolling.

May 03, 2019
I don't think the author of the study is homophobic. I think you are.

Why are you homophobic? And why do you lie so much about what people say?

Speaking of trolling.
And why are you trying to bait me little scheide? Are you currently manipulating your genitals as you type?

May 03, 2019
So do you think the researchers from the above study I cited homophobic?

"A wide and varied range of substances are thought to cause endocrine disruption. Chemicals that are known endocrine disruptors include diethylstilbestrol (the synthetic estrogen DES), dioxin and dioxin-like compounds, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), DDT, and some other pesticides."

IF causation between these chemicals and an increase in the incidence of gaydom in the general pop (as well as obesity, metabolic syndrome, mental and physiological problems, etc) could be established, can we imagine what the backlash would be?


It's obviously invalid hypothesis. As we know from history and anthropology homosexual behavior becomes widely spread if the society has no ethical taboos regarding homosexual behavior. E.g. Ancient Greece, Roman Empire, some Ancient India cultures etc.
Physiologically humans are mostly bisexual. Relatively few are strictly hetero/homo sexual.

May 03, 2019
It's obviously invalid hypothesis
Those quotes are from another study. The authors obviously dont think its invalid. What makes you think that just proclaiming that it is, makes it so?
As we know from history and anthropology homosexual behavior becomes widely spread if the society has no ethical taboos regarding homosexual behavior. E.g. Ancient Greece, Roman Empire, some Ancient India cultures etc
-And I say it's an epigenetic response to overcrowding which was prevalent in ancient walled cities. That is, if it's actually true and not just some religionist propaganda you're repeating.

Physiologically humans are mostly bisexual. Relatively few are strictly hetero/homo sexual.
-Again, just SAYING it doesnt make it true. You understand that dont you? Cite some obviously unbiased evidence to support your proclamations. This isn't Facebook.


May 03, 2019
And I say it's an epigenetic response to overcrowding which was prevalent in ancient walled cities. That is, if it's actually true and not just some religionist propaganda you're repeating.

Do you have any evidence about this? I think this could be easily proven with statistics about the amount of gay people in cities vs rural areas.

Yet, it could also be about that cities are more liberal and the moral codes more loose. You don't get judged by the whole city as you would get judged by the whole village that knows you.

May 03, 2019
No I'm not going to comb through multiple papers for evidence that may or may not exist, or that may just be political propaganda. Would you? Copy/paste a few relevant passages.

Heres something interesting

"The Cretans are often credited with the invention of pederasty (Text 2.15, 2.21.602, 5.10). Aristotle (Text 2.15) speculates that it was to limit the size of families and thus prevent overpopulation."

-So the idea certainly didnt occur to only me. It's obvious and it's been around for quite awhile.
I think this could be easily proven with statistics about the amount of gay people in cities vs rural areas
Yeah I agree and I think it ought to be, but I havent found any evidence that that sort of study has ever been done. Again, probably because its politically taboo.

Maybe you could do some reasearch and be helpful.

May 03, 2019
Theres a whole wiki page on

"Epigenetic theories of homosexuality concern the studies of changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence, and their role in the development of homosexuality."

-And if a mother 'chose' to make a child functionally infertile epigenetically, what would be the best reason? To reduce growth and maintain the health of the tribe for her other offspring. Or to reduce reproductive competition for her previous children who had the best chance of surviving to reproduce. Additional siblings could assist in their protection and rearing of nieces and nephews.

May 03, 2019
No I'm not going to comb through multiple papers for evidence that may or may not exist, or that may just be political propaganda. Would you? Copy/paste a few relevant passages.


It's all about statistics. The first pubmed article contains table: approx 30 percent heterosexual, 20 percent homosexual, the rest - bisexual. The statistics provides with pretty much the same numbers since uncle Freud. It's also supported by physiological tests. I believe you would identify yourself as heterosexual, however physiological stimulus response test might surprise you ;)

May 03, 2019
Yet, it could also be about that cities are more liberal and the moral codes more loose
You're automatically concluding that gaydom is immoral. I think it's obvious why religions want to deem any kind of sex immoral that does not lead to the growth of the flock. I think THATS immoral.

May 03, 2019
Nawwww, I like women.

What I'm interested in is why you're homophobic. And why you can't admit it.

May 03, 2019
No I'm not going to comb through multiple papers for evidence that may or may not exist, or that may just be political propaganda. Would you? Copy/paste a few relevant passages.

Maybe you could do some reasearch and be helpful.

I'm not sure if that was sarcasm of some kind but you did quote a lot but you didn't give the orginal paper. So it's hard do know what is said by real scientists and what is said by you.

I'm a chemist doing research in field of chemistry. I have no idea how to do statistics properly. I just thought you have some evidence as you were so certain.

May 03, 2019
"The Cretans are often credited with the invention of pederasty (Text 2.15, 2.21.602, 5.10). Aristotle (Text 2.15) speculates that it was to limit the size of families and thus prevent overpopulation."

-So the idea certainly didnt occur to only me. It's obvious and it's been around for quite awhile.


They did not invent pederasty, they encouraged it as a population control measure by law :)

May 03, 2019
It's all about statistics. The first pubmed article contains table: approx 30 percent heterosexual, 20 percent homosexual, the rest - bisexual
-I just skimmed through the actual article and found stuff like this:

"as one moves from the heterosexual cluster through the bisexual clusters to the homosexual cluster, the average value of the Klein Grid dependent variable increases. Almost always, each such difference is statistically significant (statistical tests not shown).

"The only exceptions occur in the "Socialize With" variable..."

-leading me to believe that study may contain ad much wishful thinking as objective analysis.

But my first search turned up this:

"The study found that 97.4% of men identified as heterosexual, 1.6% as homosexual and 0.9% as bisexual. For women 97.7% identified as heterosexual, 0.8% as lesbian and 1.4% as bisexual."
https://en.m.wiki...ustralia

-which makes a whole lot more sense.

May 03, 2019
They did not invent pederasty, they encouraged it as a population control measure by law :)
Are you speculating? The Spartans had a whole military division made up of gay couples. Greek city states had special overpop problems because of the mountainous terrain and limited resources. The most obvious explanation of their centiries of prearranged ritual warfare with citizen soldiers, was to reduce growth.
'm not sure if that was sarcasm of some kind but you did quote a lot but you didn't give the orginal paper. So it's hard do know what is said by real scientists and what is said by you
I did. It's a quote. Google it.

Quotes are more useful than links because they can take you to related papers and secondary citations.

May 03, 2019
But my first search turned up this:

"The study found that 97.4% of men identified as heterosexual, 1.6% as homosexual and 0.9% as bisexual. For women 97.7% identified as heterosexual, 0.8% as lesbian and 1.4% as bisexual."
https://en.m.wiki...ustralia

-which makes a whole lot more sense.


It's all about the difference between "identify himself as" and "have sexual attraction".
If you research social roles, you are interested in the first definition. If you research sexuality, the self identification is not of much interest. It doesn't matter whether you identify yourself as hetero, if you have sexual response to homosexual stimulus.

May 03, 2019
But my first search turned up this:

"The study found that 97.4% of men identified as heterosexual, 1.6% as homosexual and 0.9% as bisexual. For women 97.7% identified as heterosexual, 0.8% as lesbian and 1.4% as bisexual."
https://en.m.wiki...ustralia

-which makes a whole lot more sense.


It's all about the difference between "identify himself as" and "have sexual attraction".
If you research social roles, you are interested in the first definition. If you research sexuality, the self identification is not of much interest. It doesn't matter whether you identify yourself as hetero, if you have sexual response to homosexual stimulus.
I'm not sure what you're saying. The paper you cited is far from clear. The median between your numbers and the wiki numbers is still an overwhelming minority for bisexuals, which is certainly not 'physiologically most' as you stated.

May 03, 2019
Nawwww, I like women.

What I'm interested in is why you're homophobic. And why you can't admit it.
Go fish somewhere else smelly troll. Da scheide smells like fish doesnt it?

May 03, 2019
They did not invent pederasty, they encouraged it as a population control measure by law :)
Are you speculating? The Spartans had a whole military division made up of gay couples. Greek city states had special overpop problems because of the mountainous terrain and limited resources. The most obvious explanation of their centiries of prearranged ritual warfare with citizen soldiers, was to reduce growth.


I've actually read what Aristotle wrote about Cretans (they were not Spartans) :)
Some Greeks exploited (or at least tried to) sexuality for population control. That's pretty much a fact. However exploiting sexuality is not the same as creating sexuality.
For sure there is some genetic and epigenetic mechanism for sexuality as well for any other human behavior. But I see no difference about it except for scientific curiosity. It's like your eye color - you can change it, but why would you do that ;)

May 03, 2019
Hey, @Blotto, you're the homophobic bigot.

I'm just watching. And laughing.

Trolling right wingnut religious fanatic homophobic bigot trolls is amusing.

May 03, 2019
Hey, @Blotto, you're the homophobic bigot.

I'm just watching. And laughing.

Trolling right wingnut religious fanatic homophobic bigot trolls is amusing.
peep?

May 03, 2019
I'm not sure what you're saying. The paper you cited is far from clear. The median between your numbers and the wiki numbers is still an overwhelming minority for bisexuals, which is certainly not 'physiologically most' as you stated.


It doesn't matter whether you identify yourself as hetero, if you have sexual response to homosexual stimulus.

May 03, 2019
Nawwww, I like women.

What I'm interested in is why you're homophobic. And why you can't admit it.


;)
https://www.ncbi....Abstract

May 03, 2019
All out of good trolling tactics, @Blotto?

May 03, 2019
Cretans (they were not Spartans) :)
Depends how you define greek...

"The Minoan Civilization and its counterpart on the Greek Mainland, the Mycenaean Civilization, were Europe's first literate societies and the cultural ancestors of later Classical Greece."

But as far as overpopulation goes, they both shared the same problems for the same reasons. And probably the same solutions.

""As I looked for evidence for violence, warriors or war, it quickly became obvious that it could be found in a surprisingly wide range of places," Molloy said."

"Even the yet-undeciphered language of Minoan may hint at a violent undercurrent. The hieroglyphs include bows, arrows, spears and daggers, Molloy wrote. As the script is untranslated, these hieroglyphs may not represent literal spears, daggers and weapons, he said, but their existence reveals that weaponry was key to Minoan civilization."

-a microcosm of greek ritual warfare on the mainland.

May 03, 2019
Nawwww, I like women.

What I'm interested in is why you're homophobic. And why you can't admit it.


;)
https://www.ncbi....Abstract
Kinda looks that way to me too.

May 03, 2019
Nawwww, I like women.

What I'm interested in is why you're homophobic. And why you can't admit it.


;)
https://www.ncbi....Abstract
Kinda looks that way to me too.
I think he was talking about you little peep.

May 03, 2019
I'm not the one having a fit because the evul siensetis found out animals do gay sex too.

See, every time gay sex comes up you have a fit.

It's amusing to watch, you know. Push your little button and off you go. And you always have some nasty suggestion like me fondling myself or something. It's quite revealing.

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