Speculative wormhole echoes could revolutionize astrophysics

June 12, 2018, Plataforma SINC
Instant of a simulation in which two black holes merge. The collision of two rotating wormholes would trigger a similar deformation of space-time, leaving 'echoes' in the signal. Credit: LIGO LabCaltech

The scientific collaborations LIGO and Virgo have detected gravitational waves from the fusion of two black holes, inaugurating a new era in the study of the cosmos. But what if those ripples of space-time were not produced by black holes, but by other exotic objects? A team of European physicists suggest an alternative—wormholes that can be traversed to appear in another universe.

Scientists have deduced the existence of from a multitude of experiments, theoretical models and indirect observations such as the recent LIGO detections, which are believed to originate from the collision of two of these dark gravitational monsters.

But there is a problem with black holes—they present an edge, called an event , from which nothing can escape. This is in conflict with quantum mechanics, whose postulates ensure that information is always preserved, not lost.

One of the theoretical ways to deal with this conflict is to explore the possibility that the alleged black holes we 'observe' in nature are no such thing, but rather some type of exotic compact objects (ECOs), such as wormholes, which do not have an event horizon.

"The final part of the gravitational signal detected by these two detectors – what is known as ringdown – corresponds to the last stage of the collision of two black holes, and has the property of completely extinguishing after a short period of time due to the presence of the event horizon," explain the Spanish researchers Pablo Bueno and Pablo A. Cano from KU Leuven University (Belgium).

"However, if there were no horizon, those oscillations would not disappear completely; instead, after a certain time, they would produce a series of 'echoes,' similar to what happens with sound in a well. Interestingly, if instead of black holes, we had an ECO, the ringdown could be similar, so we need to determine the presence or absence of the echoes to distinguish the two types of objects."

This possibility has been explored theoretically by several groups and tentative experimental analyses using the original LIGO data have been already performed, but the verdict is inconclusive.

Rotating wormholes

The team of the KU Leuven University, in which Professor Thomas Hertog also participated, has presented a model that predicts how gravitational waves caused by the collision of two rotating wormholes would be detected.

The gravitational wave signals observed so far are completely extinguished after a few moments as a consequence of the presence of the event horizon. But if this did not exist, these oscillations would not disappear altogether; rather, after some time, there would be echoes in the signal, which may have gone unnoticed until now due to a lack of models or theoretical references with which to compare.

"Wormholes do not have an , but act as a space-time shortcut that can be traversed, a kind of very long throat that takes us to another universe," Bueno explains, "and the fact that they also have rotation changes the they produce."

According to the study, published by Physical Review D, the graphs obtained with the new model do not differ much from those recorded so far, except for the echoes, which act as a clear differentiating element.

"The confirmation of echoes in the LIGO or Virgo signals would be a practically irrefutable proof that astrophysical black holes don't exist," Bueno says, adding, "Time will tell if these echoes exist or not. If the result were positive, it would be one of the greatest discoveries in the history of physics."

Explore further: Simulations suggest other phenomenon besides black holes merging could produce gravity waves

More information: Pablo Bueno et al. Echoes of Kerr-like wormholes, Physical Review D (2018). DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevD.97.024040

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TheGhostofOtto1923
4.5 / 5 (4) Jun 12, 2018
"wormholes that can be traversed to appear in another universe."

-Yah. The Star Trek universe.
Whydening Gyre
3.9 / 5 (8) Jun 12, 2018
I think these guys might be reaching...
That said, there is nothing wrong with being a little imaginative...
cantdrive85
2.1 / 5 (11) Jun 13, 2018
I think these guys might be reaching...
That said, there is nothing wrong with being a little imaginative...

How disingenuous can one be. Suggesting this pop-sci-fi pseudoscientific claptrap is "being a little imaginative", but to suggest electric currents flow through plasma taking the form of filaments, just as in the lab, is untenable? It's a sad state of affairs!
cantdrive85
2 / 5 (8) Jun 13, 2018
wormholes that can be traversed to appear in another universe."

-Yah. The Star Trek universe.

And the Nobel prize awaits on the otherside. Scotty may just get his Nobel after all.
NoStrings
2.6 / 5 (5) Jun 13, 2018
I think they were too sparring on hype. Understate and over-deliver? What they really mean is:

Speculative wormhole speculative echoes could speculatively revolutionize speculative astrophysics.

Maybe I missed a speculative or two, but this is closer to what they may speculatively speculate.
Ojorf
4.4 / 5 (14) Jun 13, 2018
Hey, cut them some slack. They had an idea, they did the math, they predicted echos.
This will in time be tested and make it, or fail, depending on the data.

How else do you you guys want to do science?*

*not asking cantdrive as he does not.
NoStrings
not rated yet Jun 13, 2018
Ojorf, you may be right, the ether theory people wrote their equations, and had their break, why not these guys? Good idea, I gave you 5 stars, you are welcome.

Maybe they do plan to underdeliver in a creative way. Like, they fantasized the echo scenario, then they will fail to detect it. And the discovery will be the mystery of no echo.

From there two generations of astraphysicists will have fodder for funding proposals, to solve this mystery.

Isn't it speculatively revolutionizing speculative astrophysics?
cantdrive85
1.5 / 5 (8) Jun 13, 2018
How else do you you guys want to do science?*

*not asking cantdrive as he does not.

I'll answer anyways, "solving" maths equations and making computer games is not science.

"We have to learn again that science without contact with experiments is an enterprise which is likely to go completely astray into imaginary conjecture." Hannes Alfvén

The above is but imaginary conjecture.
neiorah
5 / 5 (1) Jun 13, 2018
Go get um 1923/ I have been saying black holes are worm holes for many years. I am not a scientist but it does seem logical. The worm holes may not be to another universe but to another part of ours. Hee hee cant wait to see someone go through one.
arpotu
5 / 5 (1) Jun 13, 2018
someone doesn't understand that the surface area of a black hole increases as information is added to it, thereby *not* breaking information loss issues of quantum mechanics...
Whydening Gyre
5 / 5 (4) Jun 13, 2018
I think these guys might be reaching...
That said, there is nothing wrong with being a little imaginative...

How disingenuous can one be. Suggesting this pop-sci-fi pseudoscientific claptrap is "being a little imaginative", but to suggest electric currents flow through plasma taking the form of filaments, just as in the lab, is untenable? It's a sad state of affairs!

Never said that. I've said that it is there, just not at the levels required to do some of the things you and others say it does...
Ojorf
4.1 / 5 (10) Jun 13, 2018
I'll answer anyways, "solving" maths equations and making computer games is not science.


Sorry, wrong. Can't do science without making predictions, can't make predictions without equations, can't make equations without math.

"We have to learn again that science without contact with experiments is an enterprise which is likely to go completely astray into imaginary conjecture." Hannes Alfvén


Well, golly, what can we do? Sometimes theory outpaces experiment (technology) and sometimes the opposite.
For the foreseeable future theory will continue to outpace technology and experiment since GR and the SM are undisputably 'correct' under ALL currant testable conditions.
Doing an experiment to try to find deviations from GR or the SM is becoming increasingly complex, expensive and time consuming since what has to be tested is orders of magnitude removed from everyday conditions. You just gotta make peace with it.

ZoeBell
1 / 5 (1) Jun 13, 2018
Similar echo's were also predicted for black hole mergers due to dark matter - this just corresponds the concept of dense aether, in which dark matter filaments are sparse worm holes connecting the galaxies (and dense stars at shorter distance). Do such "sparse holes" really belong into another Universe? Only if you believe, that dark matter doesn't belongs into our Universe. It actually doesn't belong into relativity theory only. In dense aether model nothing ultramundanne is about it, as the dark matter fluctuations were observed first in experiments of Nicola Tesla already, being formed with scalar waves generated during nonlinear electrodynamic phenomena. They're formed with magnetic fluctuations which gives them more energy than charge, thus shifting gravitational charge toward negative numbers.
ZoeBell
1 / 5 (1) Jun 13, 2018
According to Juday-White's interferometric measurements the streams of such a dark matter scalar waves / particles were observed around antigravity drives like the EMDrive. Such a devices should therefore generate weak warp field because they dilate the speed of light. This is also consistent with theories according to which EMDrive should work like warp drive, predicted by Miguel Alcubierre.

As you can see, there is subtle but still logically consistent line of reasoning of multiple emerging theories, so we can expect that if one frontier theory predicts some concept while it remains mutually consistent with another ones, which predict similar concepts too, then just enforces the probability that all theories are correct at the same moment.
ZoeBell
1 / 5 (1) Jun 13, 2018
Actually this subtle line of reasoning, which breaks established theories, while it remains consistent with multiple new unverified ones also represents a new multiverse of scientific understanding and as such it represents analogy of warp field in casual/cognitive space on its very own. It connects multiple theories in similar way, like the dark matter is connecting galaxies and/or like the worm holes is supposed to connect the merging black holes. The abstract world of physical theories therefore doesn't differ from their real physical counterparts as much as one would expect.
ZoeBell
1 / 5 (1) Jun 13, 2018
How we could imagine the formation of these echoes during black hole mergers? It's actually quite easy: their approaching would temporarily form daughter white hole on their connecting line, which would be smaller and because it would also decay fast, it would generate higher harmonics of gravitational waves during merger. Again, this concept was both predicted as so-called black string, both observed already in form of white hole as a radiowave lanterns (daugther white holes) along jets of approaching collinear black holes. So if you want to see such a worm hole, you have a picture of it here. In high energy physics these artifacts correspond so-called glueballs.
ZoeBell
1 / 5 (1) Jun 13, 2018
It's worth to note, that these daughter white holes wouldn't implode during merger (like normal black holes do) but instead of they they would explode being reversed in time in bright flash of long wavelength radiation and scalar waves. You can imagine, their event horizon resides inside of them, so that what they would escape into outside during their decay would be only Hawking radiation and scalar waves/neutrinos - not visible light. The still mysterious radiowave bursts could belong into this class of events/objects.
ZoeBell
1 / 5 (1) Jun 13, 2018
In hydrodynamics analogous stuff also exist in form of so-called Widnall's instability - i.e. the formation of daughter inverted vortices around fast rotating vortex pairs. We can observe these artifacts around vortex rings once they rotate sufficiently fast. On similar concept the establishing of warp field inside so-called Tipler's cylinder is based in general relativity. We can for example imagine, that once two jets of spinning black holes merge, then their composite speed would get effectively superluminal, which would lead into establishing of torus or ring of inverted space-time around them. Every particle which would emerge inside it would become subject of antigravity and subsequent decay.
RealityCheck
1 / 5 (3) Jun 13, 2018
@ZoeBell.
Similar echo's were also predicted for black hole mergers https://aeon.co/e...ravity). Do such "sparse holes" really belong into another Universe? Only if you believe, that dark matter...
Mate, resist the temptation to 'go over to the "dark" side'! Hehe.

If 'dark exotic matter' supposedly making up 4/5ths of the universe's matter/mass actually existed, every BH formed would rapidly become 'engorged' with so much mass due to 'direct ingestion' (ie, no EM forces to delay its ingestion, or for it be 'ejected' via 'accretion disc and polar-jet' systems), that there would be *countless more* super/hyper-massive BHs observed all over, and not just within galaxy nuclei.

Time to drop all those (now embarrassing) 'exotic dark matter' *speculations* long infecting mainstream interpretations and 'explanations' now being increasingly proven erroneus by more recent objective mainstream discovery/review. Finally! :)
Da Schneib
5 / 5 (6) Jun 15, 2018
I'll answer anyways, "solving" maths equations and making computer games is not science.


Sorry, wrong. Can't do science without making predictions, can't make predictions without equations, can't make equations without math.
That's pretty much it. I don't know that I've seen it said better.
savvys84
1 / 5 (4) Jun 19, 2018
@Ojorf

Sorry to burst your bubble. GR and SR are completely wrong. All experimental results to date to verify GR and SR, have been hopelessy interpreted to suit that dogma.

https://www.scrib...savvys84
Ojorf
5 / 5 (4) Jun 19, 2018
Oh boy savvy, you wrote that "Further Proof That Einstein Was Wrong", lol.

You cannot use SR to claim time dilation on the equator due to lesser gravity, but ignore GR.
The time dilation due to velocity on the equator is offset by GR time dilation due to being higher up in the gravity well.
granville583762
3 / 5 (2) Jun 19, 2018
Escaping the escape velocity you can't
phys.org> But there is a problem with black holes—they present an edge, called an event horizon, from which nothing can escape

Blackholes have a light-radius (event-horizon) gravity takes an infinitely long time to bring a particle to a halt, particles travelling the light radius velocity of the light-radius, gravity takes an infinity long time bringing it to halt which comes to light-radius-stars (blackholes) this explains why light-radius-stars or blackholes spin-axis the matter pass's through the light-radius, 50% of this matter is ejected out the spin-axis because the matter is following the path of least resistance i.e. (zero velocity at centre of spin-axis) where it follows Newton's rule - gravity takes infinitely long time through escape-velocity bringing matter to a halt which comes full circle to phys.orgs statement:- black holes—they present an edge, called an event horizon, from which nothing can escape
granville583762
3 / 5 (2) Jun 19, 2018
Escaping the escape velocity you can't and its implications
Earth has an escape velocity (25,000mph) the same as blackholes escape velocity (299792458m/s)
The matter emerging out the spin axis is travelling a greater distance than the blackholes light-radius in the same way a rocket travelling a 25,000mph is travelling a greater distance than Earth's escape velocity radius of 25,000mph
The key factor here is it is not escaping, but travelling a greater distance than radius of the escape velocity radius
This explains why matter emerging out of blackholes is travelling a greater distance than its escape velocity radius which being the speed of light is its light-radius hence the name light-radius-star it is self explanatory and appropriately named – a light-radius-star is a blackhole
Da Schneib
5 / 5 (3) Jun 19, 2018
I'm pretty skeptical on this one. Then again it's not going to be very hard to test so there's no reason not to.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (5) Jun 19, 2018
I have been saying black holes are worm holes for many years.

Lots pf people say lots of things. You can't feign intelligence by a shotgun approach (i.e. saying a lot of things and hoping that you'll get lucky on a prediction and then go "I told you so"...that's how astrologers work. They are not exactly known for being intelligent.)

This is different. They actually figured out how something should behave and how this should show up in the data if it behaves that way - and not just in a qualitative but in a quantitative way.
granville583762
2 / 5 (4) Jun 19, 2018
Worm-holes and their portals
Nobody would envisage the Earth's escape velocity as a worm-hole portal to another universe as the Earth's escape velocity is identical to a blackholes escape velocity they are both gravitationally based, matter equals gravity equals escape velocity where its escape velocity radius is proportional to its density of mass.
In this respect the Earth is no different to the blackhole
antialias_physorg
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 19, 2018
If the matter/energy at the center of a wormhole forms an (ideally distributed) ring instead of collapsing into a singularity then there is an axis along which the escape velocity is zero m/s.
granville583762
not rated yet Jun 19, 2018
At the centre of a spin-axis
antialias_physorg> If the matter/energy at the center of a wormhole forms an (ideally distributed) ring instead of collapsing into a singularity then there is an axis along which the escape velocity is zero m/s.

The definition of a blackholes spin axis where velocity is zero at its centre of spin
granville583762
1 / 5 (1) Jun 19, 2018
The magic of blackholes and their spinning filaments
As antialias_physorg has clearly demonstrated blackholes follow down to earth ordinary every laws of motion and the possible existence as antialias_physorg points out if you look at a worm hole as just that, a worm hole as an elongated black hole spinning it is still held together with the same proportion of mass but as a long line of blackholes that have merged together as one line of spinning filament as gravity is zero at the centre of mass and velocity is zero at the centre of mass passing through a black worm hole pose's no physical problem once were inside
There is just the tricky problem of passing through its light-radius to reach the safety of its core.
antialias_physorg
4 / 5 (4) Jun 19, 2018
The definition of a blackholes spin axis where velocity is zero at its centre of spin

No. Reread what I posted. You misunderstand completely (as per usual)

granville583762
not rated yet Jun 19, 2018
antialias_physorg> the matter/energy at the centre of a wormhole forms an (ideally distributed) ring instead of collapsing into a singularity then there is an axis along which the escape velocity is zero m/s

To myself, I took as we always do, are favourite bits - " instead of collapsing into a singularity then there is an axis along which the escape velocity is zero m/s" I took "here is an axis along which the escape velocity is zero m/s" to mean that that at the centre of spin the velocity is also zero m/s which I extrapolated from a blackhole to a wormhole as I interoperated in my ideas as we always do antialias_physorg.
I am sorry if I got it wrong, and this is not how you view your idea. I will accept my version is not your idea and treat it as my own antialias_physorg.
My apologies; antialias_physorg.
granville583762
3 / 5 (2) Jun 19, 2018
Ideas float in the Aether of the mind to spread their message
neiorah> Go get um 1923/ I have been saying black holes are worm holes for many years. I am not a scientist but it does seem logical. The worm holes may not be to another universe but to another part of ours. Hee hee cant wait to see someone go through one.

This is also a conclusion I've come to and been effective told it's my idea but reading through the comments its your idea also neiorah
savvys84
1 / 5 (2) Jun 20, 2018
ojorf

my papers pertain to GR only.
i have used only gravity for the equator. read the paper again

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