Flawed US-led world order to blame for American political crises at home and abroad

January 16, 2018, City University London
Flawed US-led world order to blame for American political crises at home and abroad
Credit: City University London

America's attempts to navigate challenges to its global leadership are hampered by a foreign policy mindset that is "Eurocentric, elitist and resistant to change", according to a new paper from a City, University of London academic.

Published in the Chatham House journal International Affairs, the paper also argues the United States' efforts to remain the dominant international power are causing political turmoil at home because the approach creates more and more inequality.

Professor Inderjeet Parmar says America is having problems managing its rivalry with China and other emerging powers because the US-led world order's founding values, established after the Second World War, are not compatible with a diverse network of international powers.

He concludes that the US-led liberal international order - a set of rules, organisations and values that dominate global economics and politics - was rooted in core principles that are "subliminally racialised, elitist and imperial".

To investigate the issue, Professor Parmar analysed literature describing US involvement in South Korea between 1945 and 1953, including in the Korean War, and compared this with US foreign policy towards China since the late 1970s.

He said: "The principal goal of the US-led liberal world order is to preserve American interests by incorporating wealthy and powerful individuals and elite groups from other nations into the system.

"Since 1945, the United States has done this with a combination of force, as in the Korean War, and socialisation, like its promotion of US values in China.

"China is too strong to be engineered to American tastes and because US is not flexible enough to incorporate diverse powers, China will continue to challenge the USA's leading global position.

"Yet, the elite alliances between US and Chinese groups - at state and parastate levels - are not geared to serving the interests of the broad mass of either Americans or Chinese, suggesting further political instability.

"With public discontent in the United States beginning to become clear, we should expect domestic and international political crises to deepen."

Domestic turmoil

Professor Parmar argues the US-led world order allowed certain sections of American society to become richer until the 1970s, after which the global strategy and its domestic political settlement began to unravel as manufacturing moved overseas or jobs disappeared due to automation.

The City academic points to the election of President Donald Trump, support for Bernie Sanders' left-wing anti-establishment campaign and movements like the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street as examples of growing political anxiety and the virtual collapse of political elite legitimacy.

A new theory about US power

Professor Parmar challenges the political theory known as liberal internationalism. He says it describes how the US became the world's dominant power, but argues the theory adds legitimacy to an unequal system.

Instead, he proposes a revised version of the early twentieth-century theory "ultra-imperialism", which says elites in different countries form alliances to create stability, prevent conflict and benefit the ruling classes.

"The US approach aims to develop market-orientated societies and attract elites from other nations by showing the economic benefits of integration with the US-led world order, but it does not aim to create genuine change for the masses," he said.

As an example, Professor Parmar explains the US rebuilt modern South Korea after the Second World War, through domestic political violence and the Korean War, by fostering a ruling elite that was friendly with the US.

In addition, the US has developed a "carefully crafted" relationship with China, which has willingly adopted US economic practices and become more embedded in the "global market and the US-rules based system".

Professor Parmar says over the past 40 years there has been an increasing number of American foundations, think tanks and university branches opening in China, promoting western economics and values like limited government, civil society, and the rule of law.

"Supporters of the US-led order assume domestic and international political crises are resolvable within the current system but I argue this is not the case," he said.

"The system was founded to promote the ideals of a ruling minority and was not designed to prevent inequality associated with class, race and gender."

The article, titled The US-led liberal order: imperialism by another name?, was published in a special edition of International Affairs, co-edited by John Ikenberry (Princeton University), Professor Inderjeet Parmar (City) and Professor Doug Stokes (University of Exeter).

Explore further: Foundations were major force behind US rise as a superpower

More information: Inderjeet Parmar. The US-led liberal order: imperialism by another name?, International Affairs (2018). DOI: 10.1093/ia/iix240

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aksdad
3.2 / 5 (9) Jan 16, 2018
This opinion piece deserves a complete and detailed rebuttal, but suffice it to say it's apparent from reading his essay that the author, Inderjeet Parmar, has a view of economics and government that aligns closely with Marxist philosophy and its focus on the "bourgeoisie" vs. the working class.

He can be forgiven for his perverse world view because Marxists are obsessed with class envy. They never seem to be able to explain how freedom to own property ("capitalism") under governments that protect individual rights (including owning property) has lifted more people out of poverty than any other system in the history of the world. Freedom is like that.

Marxism, on the other hand, has produced widespread misery, oppression and suffering wherever it has been tried. It should be obvious by now that it's a bad idea, but try explaining that to an intellectual elitist. Try reading Locke, Hobbes and Adam Smith, instead of Gramsci and Kautsky, and see why freedom is awesome.
aksdad
3 / 5 (6) Jan 16, 2018
Ultimately, Parmar is suspicious of Trump's foreign policy. Trump's speech to the UN on September 19, 2017 explains:

We do not expect diverse countries to share the same cultures, traditions, or even systems of government. But we do expect all nations to uphold these two core sovereign duties: to respect the interests of their own people and the rights of every other sovereign nation.

In America, we do not seek to impose our way of life on anyone, but rather to let it shine as an example...

I will always put America first, just like you, as the leaders of your countries will always, and should always, put your countries first.

America stands with every person living under a brutal regime... All people deserve a government that cares for their safety, their interests, and their wellbeing, including their prosperity.

we seek stronger ties of business and trade with all nations of good will, but this trade must be fair and it must be reciprocal
Ojorf
3 / 5 (8) Jan 17, 2018
Ultimately, Parmar is suspicious of Trump's foreign policy.


Ultimately, just about EVERYONE is suspicious of EVERYTHING Trump. With good reason.
antialias_physorg
3.2 / 5 (5) Jan 17, 2018
a set of rules, organisations and values that dominate global economics and politics - was rooted in core principles that are "subliminally racialised, elitist and imperial".

No. Really? Do tell.

That the US interest in foreign countries was never for the good of those countries is a bit of a 'Duh'. It was to secure cheap resources and markets for US goods - i.e. to create a flow of wealth towards the US. That someone has to be the loser in a flow of wealth is also a 'Duh' moment.
greenonions1
4.2 / 5 (5) Jan 21, 2018
aksdad says
Freedom is like that
Any time there is an article talking about political/economic systems - out come the bumper sticker thinkers. "There are only 2 choices - capitalism or communism" - Since Mao and Stalin prove that communism is bad (I agree with that premise) - we must pick capitalism (I disagree with that one). Here is a really good deconstruction of that bumper sticker thinking - https://www.ecoso...ck-less/ It seems it will come as a huge shock to U.S Conservatives that their may be more than just a simple 'either or' choice in something as complex as social organization. cont.
greenonions1
3.7 / 5 (6) Jan 21, 2018
cont. A look at the disgrace of the U.S health care system is a great way to understand the flaws of a pure market system approach.

- https://www.huffi...fca908cc
Anda
not rated yet Jan 21, 2018
Most indepted country in the world imperialism...
MR166
2.3 / 5 (6) Jan 21, 2018
"cont. A look at the disgrace of the U.S health care system is a great way to understand the flaws of a pure market system approach."

The US health care industry is a mess because of the government NOT because of capitalism.

Telling a hospital that they have to care for everyone regardless of ability and or willingness to pay their bill leads to massive marketplace distortions. If an uninsured person gets care they can be billed 10x the amount of an insured person for the same service. Some do pay but most do not. If a government mandates that a hospital most serve everyone regardless of ability to pay then the government must pay for those who cannot and the each hospital should have a set advertised fee for each procedure.
MR166
2.7 / 5 (6) Jan 21, 2018
I know of multiple hospitals that went bankrupt do to unpaid bills that illegal immigrants did not pay.
MR166
2.6 / 5 (5) Jan 21, 2018
Onions people still come to the US for quality healthcare that government care of other countries will not provide. The UK has 2 healthcare systems, a private one for the rich and a public one for others with sometimes long waiting lists. How would you like to be a person that has stage 1 breast cancer and have to wait until it advances to another stage in order to qualify for treatment?
greenonions1
4 / 5 (4) Jan 21, 2018
The US health care industry is a mess because of the government NOT because of capitalism
Well - you don't support your assertion with any data. It is interesting how you immediately pick on the UK. I am from the UK - my sister teaches nursing there - and I agree that it is a system with problems. None the less - it is a system that provides health care for all - with better health outcomes than the U.S. - for half the price. Maybe you can explain how that is - if the problem is government. Maybe you like a system that costs twice as much - has worse health outcomes - and puts around 3/4 million people into bankruptcy every year (some years more).
https://www.theba...-4154729
Yes it is a two tier system - and that is lamentable - but if you have a needed procedure - you get it - and no one asks for your credit card.
greenonions1
4 / 5 (4) Jan 21, 2018
You know MR - you and aksdad - and other Conservative cult members really show the problem in terms of your world view. I live in the U.S. - and I get better health care in terms of availability of services - than I would if I lived in England. But - I pay for it. Despite having really great health care through my work - I sat down and paid about $1,000 worth of co-pays yesterday. What I am keenly aware of - is that millions in this country don't have access to such good care - because they can't afford it. I CARE about that. So my compassion would dictate that I would rather live in a system with universal care - even if my quality of care dropped some - for the trade off of guaranteed coverage for all. Your attitude is "up ladder jack, I'm on board, I don't care if others drown.
Noumenon
2.2 / 5 (6) Jan 21, 2018
A look at the disgrace of the U.S health care system is a great way to understand the flaws of a pure market system approach."


Wrong. The notion that it is a "pure market system approach" is factually incorrect. Only 20% of healthcare facilities in the USA are for profit, and the vast majority of healthcare spending in the USA is through government programs, 64%.

So, in fact the U.S health care system is a great way to understand the flaws of government ineptness and failed central planning. Most government programs are unsustainable and only further put the country in dept.


Noumenon
2 / 5 (8) Jan 21, 2018
{Free market capitalism}, not government control, makes healthcare more affordable, researchers discover."
Noumenon
2 / 5 (8) Jan 21, 2018
If some government central planning were in control of biological evolution,.... rather than the capitalistic elements of egoism, competition, and survival of the fittest,... we would have been extinct long ago.
MR166
2 / 5 (4) Jan 21, 2018
Normemon is correct about government being the cause of many problems. When I first started working healthcare was offered by most employers and even if you were uninsured most health care would be a very affordable out of pocket expense. Then 3 things happened. If you look at healthcare inflation rates they started when medicare was instituted. 2ndly medical malpractice lawsuits became a golden goose for lawyers and claimants. Ignorant juries thought they were giving away rich peoples money. Lastly tuition for medical colleges went through the roof. Most of the US doctors are foreign educated for that reason.
MR166
not rated yet Jan 21, 2018
BTW Onions you mentioned that you were from the UK. That is why I chose their healthcare system vs say Canada.
greenonions1
4 / 5 (4) Jan 21, 2018
not government control, makes healthcare more affordable, researchers discover
So how do you account for the fact that the US has the most expensive health care system in the industrialized world - and delivers the poorest quality of care?

https://www.washi...c6fd75f7

It is not a coincident that every other country on that list has nationalized system - and we do not. The reasons that our system is so expensive are complex - but this quote is very prescient -
the United States, health care is very much a profitable industry that results in higher salaries from doctors to hospital administrators to health insurance executives
From - http://www.mlive...._so.html
Just because a hospital is 'non profit' - does not mean it is a single payer system....
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 21, 2018
When trying to decide if our government should run our healthcare system remember to look and how the VA hospitals and run and then tell me how things will improve.

Also when listing the major socialist failures in our time don't forget to include Venezuela in that list. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, that is a prime example.
greenonions1
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 21, 2018
MR
they started when medicare was instituted
As usual you provide no support for you assertions. Not to mention the fact that correlation does not equal causation. It is really interesting how you Conservatives keep throwing out the same regurgitated arguments. The bigger point I was making - is that capitalism and communism are not the only two options. Free market capitalism has had it's turn - and has failed. It is time to try some different ideas - and you guys are such cult worshipers - you are terrified of challenge. Here is another quote
Many experts argue that America's more free-market approach to health care actually drives up costs
If you want to understand a bit about our crazy system - read - http://www.mlive...._so.html

Why don't you try providing some support for your assertions - instead of just dropping them our of nowhere?
MR166
2.6 / 5 (5) Jan 21, 2018
One interesting fact is that under Obamacare many private doctors chose to retire because it became too expensive to continue their practice. Most of the others joined big medical corporations. So someone please explain to me how this lowered health costs to people in the US.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (2) Jan 21, 2018
On the VA system MR - Forbes disagrees with you - https://www.forbe...7f7f55e4

My son used to work in a VA nursing home. I would not put my dog in there. However - I have personally worked in some private pay nursing homes - that are every bit as bad.

But here is the bigger point. Yes - there are some single payer systems that are badly run - and others that are done well. So which should we aim for? Overall - we have the most expensive system - and deliver very poor health outcomes. Those are the facts. I have supported these facts with references. You keep arguing round in circles MR - and never even understand what has been said.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (3) Jan 21, 2018
under Obamacare many private doctors chose to retire


Now I am going to be honest MR - I already commented that you keep dropping assertions out of nowhere - without providing any support. You are just like Trump. You watch Fox news - and then get angry about what they report - but never check facts. You are really undisciplined in terms of thinking. You really seem to suffer Dunning Kruger.

fact check.

https://www.factc...amacare/
greenonions1
5 / 5 (2) Jan 21, 2018
Here is an interesting look at MD's salaries in the US - https://www.theat.../384846/

That is approx $160K up to $600K I have a friend who just finished an internship in psychiatry - and walked in to multiple offers starting at $250K

Now look at UK -
The pay range for salaried GPs is £56,525 to £85,298
From - https://www.healt...-doctors
TrollBane
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 21, 2018
@MR166 claimed: "I know of multiple hospitals that went bankrupt do to unpaid bills that illegal immigrants did not pay." Amazing. Who knew that in addition to posting here on so many topics you also attend meetings of hospital administration boards where you are privy to discussions and important decision making? (sarcasm)
TrollBane
3.7 / 5 (6) Jan 21, 2018
"under Obamacare many private doctors chose to retire because it became too expensive to continue their practice" That covers 8 years both before the ACA and after, with economic crises, inflation and other factors that your 'analysis' ignores. How many didn't choose to retire? How many would have retired anyway during those 8 years?
TrollBane
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 21, 2018
@noumenon was perhaps clever in disguising that 'reference' to research which goes to Natural News, perhaps the biggest, most shameless purveyor of quackery and health-related nonsense on the web. You want to be taken seriously, but link to that? Any mockery is well deserved.
Noumenon
1 / 5 (4) Jan 21, 2018
@noumenon was perhaps clever in disguising that 'reference' to research which goes to Natural News, perhaps the biggest, most shameless purveyor of quackery and health-related nonsense on the web. You want to be taken seriously, but link to that? Any mockery is well deserved.


Attacking Natural News with your vacuous subjective gibberish is irrelevant to the point made, as they did not conduct the research nor does that research have anything to do with them,... thus you're obfuscating.

The study was done by Stanford University Medical Center and National Bureau of Economic Research, published in Journal of the American Medical Association. All this was available in the link, but you're more interested in obfuscating.
greenonions1
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 21, 2018
@TrollBane - even if you do look at the research - you find gems like this
the least competitive markets were found to be the most expensive, averaging 3.5 to 5.4 percent higher in cost
So Noumenon will use this research to argue in favor of "Free Market Capitalism" - when the national statistics show the US system overall - to be 2 - 3 times more expensive than the rest of the world - with worse health outcomes. This can be supported with any number of references - such as - https://www.pbs.o...ountries
Or more current numbers - http://www.latime...ory.html
Noumenon
1 / 5 (5) Jan 22, 2018

So Noumenon will use this research to argue in favor of "Free Market Capitalism" - when the national statistics show the US system overall - to be 2 - 3 times more expensive than the rest of the world - with worse health outcomes.


And it was already pointed out to you, that 64% of health care costs are paid through government programs, and further that only 21% of health facilities are for-profit.

If you didn't know these facts, you're not in a position to argue with the Stanford University Medical Center, the National Bureau of Economic Research, and the Journal of the American Medical Association.

Capitalism has a history of overwhelming success as measured objectively by standard of living and life expectancy, with the lowest unemployment rate in 30 years,.... while socialism has only a historic record of misery. There is zero objective basis for thinking it can be an improvement in a country of 330 million.

greenonions1
3 / 5 (2) Jan 22, 2018
and further that only 21% of health facilities are for-profit
And I pointed out to you that just because a facility says it is 'non profit' - does not mean that it is a socialized system. Hospitals that are non profit - function as private entities - they just have to make sure if they have any surplus cash - it is turned back into the system. Often in terms of bonuses for the administrators. This is an awesome take down of the whole system - https://www.uta.e...reed.pdf

I don't imagine you will take the 10 minutes to read this amazing expose - as you are too busy worshiping at the alter of free market capitalism. I disagree with you that capitalism is an overwhelming success. I think it has very clear flaws - as I pointed out above - and that it is time for us to consider better alternatives. Conservatives problem is that they cannot see the reality of poverty, pollution, crime, violence etc. Too selfish...
Noumenon
1 / 5 (4) Jan 22, 2018
and further that only 21% of health facilities are for-profit

And I pointed out to you that just because a facility says it is 'non profit' - does not mean that it is a socialized system.


It means it's not for profit, not capitalist.

I don't imagine you will take the 10 minutes to read this amazing expose - as you are too busy worshiping at the alter of free market capitalism.

I have the immense success of capitalism displayed objectively before me, and not one example of successful socialism on an appropriate scale.

Conservatives problem is that they cannot see the reality of poverty, pollution, crime, violence


Idiot leftists can't even acknowledge the FACT that there has never been a society in human history without poverty, crime, violence, etc. Thus, you literally invent out of your ass, an omnipotent society which has never actually existed apart from naive leftists , so that you can then claim capitalism has defects.

greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 22, 2018
It means it's not for profit, not capitalist
No it does not - you are wrong - just like MR -you are trying to argue about a subject - and you only understand your blind religion. Here
the
2,900 nonprofit hospitals across the country, which are exempt from income taxes, actually end up averaging higher operating profit margins than the 1,000 for-profit hospitals after the for-profits' income-tax obligations are deducted. In health care, being nonprofit produces more profit
Why don't you read the article - instead of just shooting from the hip all time.
Noumenon
1 / 5 (4) Jan 22, 2018
Conservatives...[...]...Too selfish...


The problem with the left, is that their mentality is emotionally childish,... tossing irrelevant words around like "selfishness", "unfair", "inequality", .... In fact it's part of nature that the masses operate according to their own interests as individuals,... egoism. They do not in fact conduct their affairs with social collectivism in mind. This means that any socialist form of government relying on central planning must operate counter to the natural instincts of man,... attacking liberty all the while. An order of magnitude more intelligent means of economic society is to take advantage of egoism, freedom, individualism.

Noumenon
1 / 5 (5) Jan 22, 2018
"being nonprofit produces more profit"
Why don't you read the article - instead of just shooting from the hip all time.


Non-profit means non-profit. They are saying there is more operating revenue without taxes,.. duh. You can't say "nonprofit produces more profit",... they mean nonprofit produces more revenue because of the tax breaks.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 22, 2018
so that you can then claim capitalism has defects.
I am one of many who claim that capitalism has flaws. You say there has never been a society without poverty, crime, violence etc. Well the real point is the level of poverty, crime, violence. I have lived in communities where you leave your door open at night - and the level of crime was close to 0. I used to live in a small village in Wales. But you are wrong - in the sense that there are many examples of communities with much better qualities of life, zero poverty, and very low crime rates. I will give you just one example - https://www.youtu...MQaQ3cTQ

Yes - I would much rather be an idiot leftist - than a cruel - Conservative - unable to actually engage in constructive dialogue. I can give you dozens of other examples - but I doubt you are interested.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 22, 2018
Non-profit means non-profit
Read the article - and you will see what non profit means. The point is that just calling a facility 'non profit' does not mean it is a socialized system. It is a capitalist system - that charges more for it's services than it costs - and instead of paying the surplus to shareholders - it pays bonuses back to the administration. That is a clear distinction - and invalidates your point - that only 21% of the system is 'for profit.' See the point is it is functioning as a profit based system. Just using a label does not make your point.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (2) Jan 22, 2018
The problem with the left, is that their mentality is emotionally childish
I find the left far more sophisticated and complex in terms of their analysis. It is Conservatives like you who throw around bumper stickers - and are not able to understand the points that others are making. If you are interested - go to any major city in the U.S. - and spend some time in the blighted poverty stricken neighborhoods. I have done that in many cities. I have seen the blight. I am not impressed by your worship of the capitalist system. We will not do better - until we are willing to be honest about the shit mess we have created - and start talking to each other about better ways. Conservatives seem unwilling/unable to have constructive dialogue. You are too afraid of losing your privilege. As a result - millions live in hell...
Noumenon
1.7 / 5 (7) Jan 22, 2018
Thus, you literally invent out of your ass, an omnipotent society which has never actually existed apart from naive leftists , so that you can then claim capitalism has defects.


I am one of many who claim that capitalism has flaws. You say there has never been a society without poverty, crime, violence etc. Well the real point is the level of poverty, crime, violence.


Again, you're inventing out of thin air the premise that a society or economic system without flaws, has ever existed and therefore is even possible. Capitalism has proven itself "the greatest force for economic progress in human history". Being an objective minded person means you don't ignore facts of reality.

You advocate central planning and government control , but yet complain about violence and crime, both of which are purviews of government,... and liberals are the ones weak on crime.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (2) Jan 22, 2018
Again, you're inventing out of thin air the premise that a society or economic system without flaws
You don't even read what I say - and then you fire back a childish response. There are societies around the world with far lower levels of crime, violence, and zero poverty. No it is not perfect - but it is a lot better than the shit mess we have here in the u.s. Take a look at this video - https://www.youtu...YkEBDjX8 Now tell me you think that we cannot do better. Living in the ecovillage I just gave you a link to - would be a much higher quality of life.

You advocate central planning and government control
You just make shit up - and then want to be taken seriously. I have never advocated central planning. You are just a liar. What I do suggest we look at - would be along these lines - http://www.resili...economy/
Why do you just make shit up?
Noumenon
1.8 / 5 (5) Jan 22, 2018
I don't have time to read your links or argue with the internet. Just summarize it here. You clearly expressed anti-capitalist views here. To prevent capitalism and profit motive would require government control of some sort, which would be a form of central planning by the government.

Since it is my economic system that is in actual existence in the civilized world and not yours, it is your fantasy society that exists on bumper stickers and no where else.
MR166
1 / 5 (1) Jan 22, 2018
Onions one of the reasons that socialism works better in Europe than the US is due to the fact that Europe is more homogeneous. In Europe being on the dole is frowned upon by all but a few. Here in the US it is called beating the system and a badge of honor among many. Already there is talk of forgiving US student loans making beating the system available for even more people.

It will be interesting to see how the latest wave of immigration affects European culture in the coming years.
MR166
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 22, 2018
I found something to be quite enlightening this winter. It was very cold out and we decided to feed the birds and squirrels. It was all very gratifying for a few weeks with all warm and fuzzy feelings so to speak. Then the squirrels would beg. Then they began to climb and chew on the window and door screens trying to gain entrance to my home.

Temporary help soon becomes entitlement which soon becomes inadequate to meet ones expectations.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (6) Jan 22, 2018
"Professor Inderjeet Parma"

Libarts shithole universities face the same critical dilemma as traditional news outlets - they are obsolete sources of knowledge and info and are in imminent danger of going bankrupt.

A former columnist described Newsweek as going from a legitimate news source to a tabloid desperately searching for clickbait.

"At CNN, that means 300 positions will be cut through a mixture of buyouts and layoffs" Google news is prime assassin.

NYTimes among papers in death spiral.

"Large newspaper chains filing bankruptcy since December 2008 include the Tribune Company, the Journal Register Company, the Minneapolis Star Tribune, Philadelphia Newspapers LLC, Sun-Times Media Group and Freedom Communications"

-and it's the same with higher learning

"colleges struggle to stem big drops in enrollment..."

-Special interest politicos and alumni continue futile support in exchange for clickbait studies like the above.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (6) Jan 22, 2018
cont. A look at the disgrace of the U.S health care system
What makes you think hyperbole is anything but an indication of your political dysfunction?

US healthcare is far from a disgrace. One data point your huff post tabloid fails to consider is that Americans are on the whole sicker than other western nations.
https://www.healt...ountries

People from disadvantaged countries come here for treatment as this country offers the latest treatments and the quickest appointments.
MR166
3 / 5 (2) Jan 22, 2018
Way to go Otto *****
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 22, 2018
I don't have time to read your links or argue with the internet
OK - then should you not shut up? I provide links as a support for the positions I take. MR just makes assertions - without any support. If you are not willing to take the time to read the information - you surely have no business disagreeing. Yes - I expressed sentiment against capitalism. I would expand the position to say that I have a problem with neo liberal free market capitalism. I am not advocating socialism - or government hand outs. Neither works. I am advocating the exploration of alternative models. Once again - here is an example - http://www.resili...economy/
There are many other examples. Intentional communities are very interesting. Green Wave is another interesting example. A fisherman - who realized the destructive trawling we were doing - was not sustainable. He has set up a model of small scale - cont.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 22, 2018
otto
What makes you think hyperbole is anything but an indication of your political dysfunction?
I supported my position with multiple links.. The U.S. spends 2 - 3 times what all other industrialized countries do on health care - and we are less healthy. Those are facts. You are too much of a bully to ever bother reading a link - so you just throw around childish invective. Why don't you read the article Bitter Pill. I gave you a link. If you are not interested in reading the link - you have no position on the subject - which is fine - but it is the height of arrogance to refuse to look at the substance of an argument - and then throw around your childish invective.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 22, 2018
Otto
People from disadvantaged countries come here for treatment as this country offers the latest treatments and the quickest appointments
So what? People from the U.S. travel all over the world to obtain treatment. The treatment is every bit as good - and way cheapr. Medical tourism is a huge business. Why don't you learn to use google. I was very clear in stating that if you can afford it - the u.s. has great health care. The problem is the cost. I went to the dr. today as I have the flu. $200 later - I have the next 2 days off work - and I have awesome health coverate. $200 is nothing to me - but for millions of people - that is more money than they can afford. I have worked with so many people who have teeth extracted - as they cannot afford the cost of a root canal. Yes Otto - the system here is fucked up.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 22, 2018
You are just like Trump. You watch Fox news - and then get angry about what they report - but never check facts
Like the president I personally tend to watch both. After a little while it becomes clear who is reporting complete stories and who is making up lies and clickbait.

I suspect that after all the dust settles and dozens are jailed including Hillary, that the prime motivation for this unprecedented treason will have been massive foreign funding for the reconquista.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 22, 2018
cont. small scale vertical - sustainable farming. He claims we can feed the whole world on a section of ocean the size of Washington state. I am encouraging us to be willing to look seriously at new ways of thinking. Conservatives are blocking such progress - by throwing around childish bumper sticker thinking - instead of actually being willing to read some links - and understand some different ideas.
snoosebaum
5 / 5 (1) Jan 22, 2018
there's a voice in the wilderness about your healthcare system , karl denninger @ market ticker.

a quote from one of his pieces

''Health care costs have exploded because of fraud, extortion and just plain intentional bloat. Hiring ratios of 10-30:1 for administrators to doctors and nurses are just a start. You pay for every one of those people but they never provide a single second of care to a single person. This crap standing alone is strangling the economy and it's strangling the Federal Government.

Then you add onto it monopolist protections system-wide. You can't get a price before a procedure and you can't hold someone to a price. How much you pay has nothing to do with the complexity and everything to do with how you pay (or whether you can.) The health system is the only form of "business" in which a hospital or physician bills you for fixing their screw-ups -- and if those screw-ups kill or permanently maim you they're "entitled" to bill you for that too.''
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Jan 22, 2018
The treatment is every bit as good - and way cheapr. Medical tourism is a huge business. Why don't you learn to use google
I always Google. For instance I googled this

"Canadian provincial health insurance does not cover non-resident visitors, even if they are visiting family—uninsured visitors are expected to pay in full for medical bills incurred in Canada..."

Treatment is usually better here. Desperate US citizens travel abroad to receive unapproved treatments from voodoo doctors.
but for millions of people - that is more money than they can afford
So they can go to Canada and Britain and wait 10 months for treatment.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 22, 2018
I also googled this

"Why Canadians Are Increasingly Seeking Medical Treatment Abroad"

-in your very own huffpost.

"In 2014, more than 50,000 Canadians left the country for medical treatment, a 25 percent increase from the previous year. A similar number left the country for treatment in 2015."

-citing 20 week typical wait times.

Google is my buddy.

"NHS: UK now has one of the worst healthcare systems in the developed world, according to OECD report
Hospitals so underequipped that people are dying needlessly because of a chronic lack of investment..."

Socialist medicine at its finest. Why upgrade that obsolete CT scanner when there's no competition? Sure it makes the paint peel but paint is cheap.
MR166
1 / 5 (1) Jan 22, 2018
Onions there are a few reasons that the US has health problems that other countries do not. Number one is a huge junk food industry and a very poor diet. High glycemic index foods and low fats were pushed by the US government as "Heart Healthy". This has killed millions. Also the US is a highly addicted country in comparison to Europe. Drug overdoses have increased the US mortality rate in the last few years. Then there is the gang violence of the inner cities. Gang members consider it a bonus if they live to 30.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 22, 2018
Onions there are a few reasons that the US has health problems that other countries do not. Number one is a huge junk food industry
One crazy factoid I read was that the #1 reason that black women don't exercise is that it screws up their expensive hair treatments.

Want a Google on that? Sure.

"Have you ever heard one of your girlfriends say "I don't workout because I don't like to sweat" or "I just got my hair done"? Yeah! Me too. Both excuses are pitiful and it's shameful that one would be more willing to live an unhealthy life, for the sake of a blow out!"
greenonions1
4 / 5 (1) Jan 22, 2018
MR - once again you make assertions - without any support. I supplied several links - one being the 'Bitter Pill' article, and another the '7 reasons U.S. Health care is so expensive' I also showed a comparison of salaries between U.S. doctors, and U.K. doctors. I provided links to support all my arguments. You on the other hand keep making assertions - and never provide support.
Noumenon
1 / 5 (6) Jan 22, 2018
I don't have time to read your links or argue with the internet

OK - then should you not shut up?

No, you should provide a summery of the link,.... as I specifically asked you to.

Why Canadians Are Increasingly Seeking Medical Treatment Abroad"


I'm Canadian and can attest to this as true.
greenonions1
3.8 / 5 (4) Jan 22, 2018
No, you should provide a summery of the link
Piss off. If you are too lazy to read the link - it is not my job to spoon feed you. I make an assertion - take quotes out of the link - and provide the link. The bitter pill article is about 40 pages long. It is an exhaustive expose of the U.S. mess of a health care system. You want a summary - the U.S. health care system is a black hole - no one understands the cost system - but the costs are clearly out of control. We pay more than every other country. Now read the article - or stop pretending you have an informed opinion - because you don't
Noumenon
1 / 5 (5) Jan 22, 2018
No, you should provide a summery of the link
Piss off. If you are too lazy to read the link - it is not my job to spoon feed you.


I read nearly all day, and have limited time. If I were to watch your videos and read your links, then in fact I would be doing YOUR job by researching what YOUR point might be.

For example, you posted "What I do suggest we look at - would be along these lines -",... then you immediately dumped a link. Just summarize the point being made, THEN, if I have further interested I will pursue it. That's all I am saying,... use links as supplementary.

greenonions1
3 / 5 (2) Jan 22, 2018
Otto
One crazy factoid I read was that the #1 reason that black women don't exercise is that it screws up their expensive hair treatments.


Right on que otto - a nice little diversion into racism....
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 22, 2018
Noumenon
use links as supplementary
I use links to support and elaborate on my point. I understand if you do not have time to read the articles. Then you have no business trying to present yourself as informed on the subject.
Case in point - I have accused you of childish - simplistic - bumper sticker thinking. You accuse me of supporting centralized planning. Nothing I have said could indicate that I support centralized planning. I emphasized that point - and showed you an example of what I do suggest we explore. Now - If you don't have the time to read the link - then you should back out of the conversation. I gave you my position by way of a link. That is far more sophisticated than trying to summarize the link - and risk missing the mark. You don't have time to read the link - stop telling me you have an informed opinion - because you don't. You can skim a link very quickly if you are interested. You are not interested - just want to make shit up about people.
Noumenon
1 / 5 (6) Jan 22, 2018
.... and right on que, a liberal calling someone "racist".

I still don't know what your improvement on capitalism is, if it's not socialism or government central planning. Is it that everyone drinks some kool-aide and then voluntarily forgoes their natural instincts of individualism and egoism, to live for collectivist principals of non-profit? Again, how are you going to prevent people from pursuing profit and unequal wealth accumulation? This would require the oppressive force of government and a new constitution that does not protect private property rights,... and therefore limited freedoms. ???

You don't have time to read the link - stop telling me you have an informed opinion - because you don't.


I want to ensure that you have an informed opinion by requiring you to summarize your link. How assinine

Noumenon
1 / 5 (3) Jan 22, 2018
... how asinine would a discussion be to just pass links back and forth, in fact would not qualify as a discussion at all. We could even automate the entire process with some programme,... perhaps make use of Wolfram Alpha to have it argue with itself ?
Whydening Gyre
5 / 5 (4) Jan 22, 2018
I see that we have all agreed to disagree in this thread...
TrollBane
5 / 5 (1) Jan 22, 2018
While Noumenon praises free market capitalism for health care, hundreds of hospitals in the USA are starting to band together to produce their own generic drugs because of repeated price fixing, gouging and other supply problems.
https://arstechni...n-drugs/
TrollBane
5 / 5 (1) Jan 22, 2018
Noumenon: Why Canadians Are Increasingly Seeking Medical Treatment Abroad"
I'm Canadian and can attest to this as true.

I'm a REAL Canadian who can testify that its nonsense. 'medical treatment' like elective surgery can take a while, so some go elsewhere. There is no major rush for treatment elsewhere, and certainly not for urgent medical procedures except in rare cases.

https://www.aarp....are.html
Noumenon
1.8 / 5 (5) Jan 23, 2018
I'm a REAL Canadian who can testify that its nonsense. 'medical treatment' like elective surgery can take a while, so some go elsewhere.


My aunt had to wait for six months for knee surgery, all the while in pain. You say "non-sense", then proceed to confirm it.
MR166
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 23, 2018
"While Noumenon praises free market capitalism for health care, hundreds of hospitals in the USA are starting to band together to produce their own generic drugs because of repeated price fixing, gouging and other supply problems."

THAT is a US government problem. There is NO free market in prescription drugs. Crony Capitalism prevents people in the US from buying drugs from other countries and US prices are sometimes 10x higher thanks to a corrupt political system and extremely high court settlements if the drug is found to have unintended side effects.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
Noumenon
and right on que, a liberal calling someone "racist"
The one thing a racist hates - is being called a racist. Just because you want to deny racism - does not make it go away. One of the major failures of the current system - is the segregation of our society. In Oklahoma City where I live - I sometimes work in the affluent white suburbs - where the schools have dramatically more resources. I also work in the poor inner city schools (Grant high school, Lee Elementary etc.). The contrast could not be more stark. The factors that led to this evil, are complex. We wont grow beyond this evil, by continuing to tolerate racism, or by letting the 'free market' solve the problem. That solution failed. See next post.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
Noumenon
I still don't know what your improvement on capitalism is
despite the fact that I posted links to suggestions for alternatives we could conside/explore. The John Michael Greer article talked about a number of alternatives - and he elaborated on syndicalism. I also linked to a video on an eco-community in Ithaca. Another link talked about the social economy being created in Quebec. Actually posting links is wasted on you because you are not interested in exploring new knowledge. Which brings me to my summary. You want to attack people - calling me an idiot leftist for example. But when engaged in a more complex way - and asked to actually take a minute to look at some new information - you are not interested. In other words - knowledge and truth are not relevant to you - winning a pissing match is the game. You remind me of Trump.
MR166
1.5 / 5 (2) Jan 23, 2018
In the US it is not unusual for doctors to pay $500,000 for their 8 years of schooling. Then spend 3-8 years of residency with long hours and little pay. Then in private practice they have to pay rent, and the salaries of a nurse and a billing specialist. Yes because of the government and private insurance mess it is just a much work to bill the insurance companies as to cure the patient. I went to the doctor the other day and saw him for 1/2 hour and the bill was $129.00. My car dealer charges $125/hr for service.
MR166
1 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
A person I know just had a 3 hour open heart double bypass at a well respected university hospital in NYC. Medicare paid the surgeon $2500. I do not consider that to be a lot of money considering the education and skill needed to perform this operation.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 23, 2018
Right on que otto - a nice little diversion into racism....
That quote was from a black woman you ignorant moron. Are you calling HER racist???

Here is a stellar example of how far from reality you people are;

"California grants illegal aliens drivers licenses and, beginning on April 1, will register illegal aliens to vote."

-And I suppose soon enough they won't even have to live here. Deportees can cast absentee ballots from Tijuana.
greenonions1
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 23, 2018
Are you calling HER racist???
No I'm calling you a racist. You dropped that racist bomb on a thread that was about the cost and efficacy of our health care system. It was irrelevant. It was like a five year old - saying something naughty. It was not pertinent to the discussion. It was just that little racist itch you could not help but scratch.

Here is a stellar example of how far from reality you people are
Who is 'you people' otto. We are talking about the failure of the health care system - and you go off into allowing illegal aliens to vote. That puts you in the category of moron. Illegal aliens cannot vote, and will never be allowed to vote. You could provide no evidence to support that assertion - it has been beat to death.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 23, 2018
There is no major rush for treatment elsewhere, and certainly not for urgent medical procedures except in rare cases
And I guess REAL Canadians don't need facts e.g.?

"While Americans have been crossing the border for years in search of cheaper medications, it turns out there are a growing number of Canadians seeking medical treatment abroad as well, raiding their bank accounts and choosing to pay for treatment instead of being treated through their nationalized health care system. In 2014, more than 50,000 Canadians left the country for medical treatment, a 25 percent increase from the previous year."

-It's funny how some people think insight comes from just being somewhere.

These idiots are everywhere.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
MR
I do not consider that to be a lot of money considering the education and skill needed to perform this operation.
Neither do I. And if you took a few minutes to read the Bitter Pill article I referenced - you would see a whole section on the issue of medicare/medicaid reimbursement. Hospitals are screaming about being underpaid - even though the evidence suggests they are getting reimbursed a fair fee for the services. So just for example - the private pay patient is billed $283 for a chest xray - that medicare pays $21 for. So you make the point for us - that the current for profit health system - is raping the American people - and a single payer system controls the costs. Not meaning I support a centralized system of organization for the whole economy. Health care is unique beast - in that we die if we don't get the service - which makes us vulnerable to the greedy - who will rape us for profit. It is not a competitive system.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
These idiots are everywhere
Otto - you keep insulting others - calling them morons, and idiots etc. Yet you promote rubbish. You have claimed that illegal aliens are being registered to vote. That is rubbish. You can only support that kind of rubbish - with references from tabloid rags. There is no credible evidence to support the idea that illegal aliens are allowed to vote. So does that not make you totally irrelevant in terms of an informed discussion. Like Noumenon - you do not want to be credible/informed/knowledgeable - you just want to yell the loudest.
MR166
not rated yet Jan 23, 2018
"So just for example - the private pay patient is billed $283 for a chest xray - that medicare pays $21 for. So you make the point for us - that the current for profit health system - is raping the American people - and a single payer system controls the costs. "

I did make the point that the uninsured are charged much more than the insured ( private or public ) and that hospitals need to post their rates. I also pointed out that people who do not pay their bills are much to blame for this disparity in rates. Illegal immigrants are a huge problem in this respect.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (5) Jan 23, 2018
No I'm calling you a racist. You dropped that racist bomb on a thread that was about the cost and efficacy of our health care system


"Reuters Health) - A number of obstacles may stand between a person and exercise, and hairstyles may be one of them for African-American women, according to a new study.

"Researchers found about two of every five African-American women said they avoid exercise because of concerns about their hair, and researchers say that is concerning given the United States' obesity epidemic... Dr. Amy McMichael, the study's senior researcher and a dermatologist at the Wake Forest University School of Medicine in Winston-Salem, North Carolina"

-So you're calling HER racist now aren't you?

Yeah you are.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 23, 2018
"African American adults are nearly 1.5 times as likely to be obese compared with White adults. Approximately 47.8 percent of African Americans are obese (including 37.1 percent of men and 56.6 percent of women) compared with 32.6 percent of Whites (including 32.4 percent of men and 32.8 percent of women).2 More than 75 percent of African Americans are overweight or obese..."

So. We can conclude that part of the 'problem' with US healthcare is that Americans are on average less healthy than those is other western countries, and this is due in large part to the obesity epidemic, occurring principally among African American women. And this is due, according to Dr. Amy McMichael, the study's senior researcher and a dermatologist at the Wake Forest University School of Medicine in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, in large part to HAIRSTYLES.
Who is 'you people' otto
That would be ignorant people like you who think knowledge is a fashion statement.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (5) Jan 23, 2018
Otto - you keep insulting others - calling them morons, and idiots etc
Yeah and you called me a racist you fucking SKROAT just because I posted some ethnicity-related FACTS.
MR166
not rated yet Jan 23, 2018
US obesity is mainly caused by poor diet not overeating. High glycemic index carbs raise blood sugar. After a short amount of time blood sugar levels drop and one gets hungry again and eats more crappy starch based carbs. This is an addiction as bad as any drug. If anyone cares, research the ketogenic diet. It is the only way to reduce body fat without feeling hungry all of the time. It is the exact opposite of the US governments recommended food pyramid.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (7) Jan 23, 2018
There is no credible evidence to support the idea that illegal aliens are allowed to vote
This, after I posted a QUOTE telling you that they WILL BE voting in CA after April 1 of this year.

You ignorant fucking skroat.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
So you're calling HER racist now aren't you?
No - once again - I am calling you a racist. We were discussing the complexities of the U.S. health care system - and you dropped that little racist bomb out of nowhere. It was not relevant to the discussion - any more than bringing up the issue of illegal aliens being registered to vote was relevant to the discussion. The fact that black women may be avoiding exercise for fear of messing up their hair is not racist in itself. Dropping that bomb in the middle of a thread - is racist. Squirm away otto - the record shows it for what it is.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 23, 2018
BTW that QUOTE came from an article about a once-deported illegal alien uber driver charged with multiple rapes in a sanctuary city
http://www.breitb...ifornia/

-more evidence that illegal aliens are a health hazard as well.
It was not relevant to the discussion
The uniquely american obesity epidemic and the burdens it places on our healthcare system are indeed germaine to the discussion.

And your ignorance about illegal alien voters needed to be corrected whether it was relevant or not.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
This, after I posted a QUOTE telling you that they WILL BE voting in CA after April 1 of this year
And where was your quote from? I googled it - and came up with a whole bunch of bloggs - and even one 'Daily Mail' article. Is that where you go for your credible knowledge? Here is the facts regarding the new California Voter Registration Act. - http://www.latime...ory.html

Registering illegal aliens to vote would immediately put California into violation of your constitution - and of course the Republican party would file a law suit faster than you could sneeze. One example of a non citizen being registered to vote - would be a god send to the Republican party. They would jump on it. By posting that rubbish - you identify yourself as a complete fool.
MR166
1 / 5 (2) Jan 23, 2018
" There is no credible evidence to support the idea that illegal aliens are allowed to vote."

When Donald Duck is registered to vote in many states and no ID of any sort is required to vote then for all intents and purposes illegal aliens are allowed to vote. I need ID to buy alcohol, see a doctor, open a bank account or deposit cash yet it is considered racist to require an ID to vote. An inquiring mind would wonder why the Progressives fear voter ID so much.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (5) Jan 23, 2018
Registering illegal aliens to vote would immediately put California into violation of your constitution
No more so than sanctuary cities.
and of course the Republican party would file a law suit faster than you could sneeze
So... you're trying to convince ME that CA is not going to start registering illegal aliens to vote??? When it's obviously part of the public record???

Why on earth would you want to be doing that???

Is this really how your brain works???

Of course it is.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
From the LA times article -
Information about anyone who does not decline registration will be electronically transmitted from the DMV to the secretary of state's office, where citizenship will be verified and names will be added to the voter rolls
Although citizens are currently offered the opportunity to register to vote at the DMV under an earlier federal law, noncitizens are not. That will continue under the new registration process
We've built the protocols and the firewalls to not register people that aren't eligible
MR166
3 / 5 (2) Jan 23, 2018
"Information about anyone who does not decline registration will be electronically transmitted from the DMV to the secretary of state's office, where citizenship will be verified and names will be added to the voter rolls"

They are issuing a drivers licence to a person without a SS# or birth certificate. How the heck are they supposed to "Verify" citizenship with no information? These will all just be rubber stamped.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 23, 2018
"Judge Andrew Napolitano predicted, "the state is going to provide shelter for illegals to vote."

"A January 21 report at World Net Daily observed that California has long provided driver's licenses to all those who claimed that they were U.S. citizens. State officials conducted no checks to verify eligibility or required documentation."

"an estimated 806,000 undocumented residents have received driver's licenses, according to Department of Motor Vehicles statistics this month... More than half of all drivers' licenses issued in California this year have gone to illegal aliens."

-and since they weren't checked to get a licence they won't be checked to vote.

Take it up with the judge.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 23, 2018
MR
How the heck are they supposed to "Verify" citizenship with no information?
If they cannot verify citizenship - you are correct - they will not add your name to the roles. That is the point. You have to be verified. If I show up at the dmv - and do not present a ss # - but request registration - then what ever information I give - is going to be sent to the Secretary of State. It is the Secretary of State who will add names to the voter roles. If the Secretary of state cannot verify that the person is a citizen - the name will not be added. It is beyond stupid to suggest that California will be registering non citizens to vote. It would hand the Republican party a god send. The first time it happens - California will be slammed in court.
greenonions1
1 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
Otto
and since they weren't checked to get a licence they won't be checked to vote
Yes they will - it is built into the law. It is also obvious that the first time a non citizen is registered to vote - the Republicans will have a field day. They will be able to invalidate the whole California process. It will be unconstitutional. You are a fool to believe otherwise - a believer in the most outrageous conspiracy theories. The Republicans would be jumping for joy if your idiot assertion was true. They will publicly humiliate the Democrats.
MR166
1 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
Onions if a John Doe living at 1 Anywhere St. in LA claims he is a citizen of the US there is no data base to check. They have to prove he is not a citizen or his rights will be violated. When I got my first ID/drivers license I has to show my birth certificate as proof of citizenship. THEY do not.
MR166
1 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
That my man is the whole point of documenting immigrants!
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 23, 2018
built into the law
So's this

"A January 21 report at World Net Daily observed that California has long provided driver's licenses to all those who claimed that they were U.S. citizens. State officials conducted no checks to verify eligibility or required documentation."

CA is systematically circumventing the law.
the Republicans will have a field day
"Brown and the California Democratic party know exactly what they are doing; as a Public Policy Institute survey showed, among unregistered adults, 49% lean toward the Democratic Party and 22% toward the Republican Party. Any bill permitting illegal immigrants to vote would cement the Democratic Party's hold on California."
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 23, 2018
"When Doocy questioned whether California could extend the right to vote to federal as well as state elections, since it is illegal for noncitizens to vote in federal elections, Napolitano replied:

"Yes, it is [illegal]. But there's really no way to monitor it. So if you are an illegal alien in California, get a driver's license, register to vote, you can vote in local, state, and federal elections in California and those votes count....

"It's almost impossible to monitor this if the state is going to provide shelter for illegals to vote."

-You think you're arguing with me but you're actually arguing with a very accomplished and astute JUDGE who even you will have to admit knows far more than you about the realities involved and the extent to which CA dems will go to make this happen.

Deportees WILL be casting absentee ballots using their drivers licences. But in the meantime illegal residents WILL be voting and there's nothing that anybody can do to stop it.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (6) Jan 23, 2018
This is the kind of naivete that results from preconceived opinions based on wishful ideology. It's why you can think it's right and proper to call someone a RACIST because they present some FACTS you dont like.

It's how fascist antifeh thugs can believe they're in the right to smash and burn and bludgeon.

It's how lynch mobs do their work.
greenonions1
3 / 5 (2) Jan 23, 2018
MR - you are wrong - https://www.snope...ter-act/

But this is a pointless debate. The system has been set up to only allow citizens to vote. If the system is flawed - and non citizens are allowed to vote - you better believe the Republican party will be all over it - and the Dems will have played right into the hands of the Republicans. Bottom line - you believe Fox News and Breitbart if you want. Let's see how this plays out in reality. So far all the hand waving of the Republicans has proven to be just that - and voter fraud has not been upheld - in any one of multiple investigations. http://www.politi...ce-vote/

But bottom line - this is a thread about health care - and you are free to believe what you want about voter fraud - it is off topic.
greenonions1
3 / 5 (2) Jan 23, 2018
It's why you can think it's right and proper to call someone a RACIST because they present some FACTS you dont like.
I have no problem with the facts. I have a problem with dropping a race bomb - in the middle of a discussion about our health care system. Titter titter - did you know that black women don't exercise because they don't want to mess up their hair - titter titter.
It was just a racist itch that you had to scratch. Now you go into temper tantrums - cuz the one thing a racist hates - is being called a racist.
Noumenon
1 / 5 (6) Jan 23, 2018
But bottom line - this is a thread about health care


Only because the commenters choose to make it so, not on account of the article, thus Otto is well within appropriateness to bring up that point, as he is a commentator.

It's questionable whether the mush-headed left even knows what racism means anymore since they watered down that charge so much by using it as a weapon at the drop of a hat. You even accused me of denying racism. Typical liberal who will say anything.

greenonions1
3 / 5 (2) Jan 23, 2018
not on account of the article,
Yes - on account of the article. We are discussing the flawed u.s. economic system - and the health care system being used as probably the best example of the problems within that system. I know you Conservatives hate being called out when you say racist shit. Suddenly talking about how black women don't exercise because they don't want to mess up their hair - is a very blatant example of sneaking in some racism. Titter titter - aren't we funny....And now we will defend each other's racism - cuz the one thing a racist hates - is being called a racist.
Noumenon
1 / 5 (4) Jan 23, 2018
you Conservatives hate being called out when you say racist shit


It's patently clear that you don't know what racism is. Such state of affairs could have only come about on account of indoctrination. Such disrespect to those generations who have actually suffered on account of actual racism.

Only in a liberal mind does making a racial statement equate to making a racist one,... such is the degree to which you care about the obvious difference.

greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
It's patently clear that you don't know what racism is
Or perhaps that we disagree on the definition of racism. I think I have outlined my case for why I am calling Otto out as being a racist. Let me repeat. The comment made about black women not exercising because they don't want to mess up their hair - was just dropped in the middle of a thread - about the American health care system. It was a blatant diversion into racism. It did not pertain to the subject being discussed. It was childish racism. Titter titter - do you know that black women don't exercise because they are scared to mess up their hair - titter titter. Otto then did the same thing with switching the topic to talking about illegal aliens voting. It is a common ploy of the Conservatives. "I am outraged about X - so I will troll the internet - and drop outrage bombs. Only problem is - they often show you up to be shallow thinkers - and racists...
MR166
1 / 5 (2) Jan 23, 2018
Onions you are defending these driver registration laws because as you admitted it favors the Democrats.
"If the system is flawed - and non citizens are allowed to vote - you better believe the Republican party will be all over it -....."

If this change favored Trump you would be howling like a beagle in heat.
Noumenon
1 / 5 (5) Jan 23, 2018
still don't know what your improvement on capitalism is

despite the fact that I posted links to suggestions for alternatives we could conside/explore.


A link should only accompany a summary. I don't have time to debate the internet, plus I want to ensure that you have a formulated opinion rather than doing drive-by's with links. This is a rational request.

Noumenon
1 / 5 (5) Jan 23, 2018
It's patently clear that you don't know what racism is

Or perhaps that we disagree on the definition of racism.

It's not a term for which there can be disagreements. History has defined that term. You're simply wrong for tossing that accusation around like it has whatever meaning you want it to have.

Not all racial statements are racist, but all racist statements are racial.
MR166
1 / 5 (2) Jan 23, 2018
Anywho, back to the original topic, the US is not really controlled by the people anymore. Those of us who thought that the Republicans were the sole owners of US intervention either got or should have gotten a very rude awakening under the Obama administration. World destabilization was brought to a new height under him. The deep state including the FBI, CIA and NSA were running the show and are mad as hell that Trump was elected and is now trying to overthrow their regime.
MR166
1 / 5 (2) Jan 23, 2018
To further advance the world destabilization, the Democrats and many RINO Republicans voted to sanction Russia over imaginary election tampering. This action resulted in even greater tensions between both countries and benefitted neither. Again the deep state was exercising it's power.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 23, 2018
It's not a term for which there can be disagreements
Of course it is. There is always room for disagreements on language - it is part of the nature of language. Of course - if you would prefer it - I will dictate that all must agree with THE singular definition of racist.
person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races
Otto clearly shows prejudice - by singling out black women - and trolling the internet with outrage bombs about stupid things that black women do. The racism of Otto's comment - was in needing to make that comment - when it was completely off topic.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 23, 2018
A link should only accompany a summary. I don't have time to debate the internet
Oh - you make all the rules now? I make points - that are pretty clear in terms of content - and often provide a link for expansion of the point. I am fine with commenting that way. You are always free to ignore - but I think if you want to engage on the subject - you would find a minute to check out the link - and understand more fully what I am talking about. If as you say - you do not have time to debate the internet - why are you debating the internet? I am home sick with the flu - so have a little time on my hands.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Jan 23, 2018
I have no problem with the facts. I have a problem with dropping a race bomb - in the middle of a discussion about our health care system. Titter titter - did you know that black women don't exercise because they don't want to mess up their hair - titter titter
You still don't get it. That was the result of a STUDY done by a researcher.

You've already decided I'm a racist and so anything I present here remotely related to ethnicity is in your mind racist.

That's ok. I've already decided you're a stinking bigot. But thats based on the bigoted things you say. Ex post facto.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Jan 23, 2018
Hey retard
Otto clearly shows prejudice - by singling out black women - and trolling the internet with outrage bombs about stupid things that black women do.
I thought you might like to know that the woman who did the study and reached the conclusion that many black women are obese because they don't want to ruin their 'do, is black.

http://www.wakehe...-Amy.htm

- and I bet she thinks the reason is a pretty stupid one as well.
The racism of Otto's comment - was in needing to make that comment - when it was completely off topic
Yo ignorant bigot - obesity is a totally preventable drain on our healthcare resources. As are illegal aliens who routinely get free treatment. But still, despite what morons such as yourself would want people to believe, it's among the best in the world, as many posters have shown you, which is why so many come here from places like Canada and gbr.

But since you've already decided, facts are irrelevant.

Right?
MR166
1 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
Now I don't want to be termed a racist but the person doing the study is a total idiot. Lack of exercise is not the cause of obesity but eating too much of the wrong kind of foods is. Yea, exercise can help but very few 300 pounders will return to a normal weight by exercising. Exercising is more of an indication that you care enough about you health to do something positive than is is a cure for obesity.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 23, 2018
Otto - racists don't like to be called racist. They want to ply their hate - unchallenged. So I have said my part - your comment was off topic - childish - racist. You were saying "titter titter - look black women don't exercise - cuz it will mess up their hair - titter titter. So we both know my position - and you can live with yourself - as I have to live with myself. I think you also reveal yourself with this kind garbage
Yo ignorant bigot
Facts are very relevant to me - and I think that in general - we are currently seeing that Conservatives are the ones plying "alternative facts." The fact is that the U.S. health system costs 2 - 3 times the health system of every other industrial country - and we are less healthy. That is an evil than I believe needs to end.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 23, 2018
Back on topic - I have just watched a really interesting documentary - "Ethopia Rising" It is available on Amazon Prime - and I would recommend a watch. Noumenon said that he is interested in the alternatives that I would propose we explore - but he does not have time to read any information. Well - I will summarize. Ethopia was devastated - by war/famine/drought. Local scale - community activist programs - in concert with a legitimate gvt - and outside aid groups - are turning the situation around. Huge areas of land are being re-forested. The land is renewing - crop harvests are increasing - people are able to stay in their villages - as employment is now available. Maybe call it - community based, cooperative, restorative economics. Several of the links I supplied previously talked of other programs. I think - way better than the slash and burn of current day capitalism.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 23, 2018
Listen, racist, your problem is that a white man posted an uncomfortable fact about black women. It's not the FACT you object to, it's the source. Same as when I enlightened you as to the cause of poverty in the inner city, being caused by women having babies they have no way of supporting on their own.

It's obvious that you HATE any white man impudent enough to point out the failings within your own community.

But black womens is still fat and poor ain't they? Y'all better start listenin to SOMEONE or else things ain't getting any better. No way uh uh-
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Jan 23, 2018
Ethopia was devastated - by war/famine/drought. Local scale - community activist programs - in concert with a legitimate gvt - and outside aid groups - are turning the situation around
Yeah and things improved significantly after the twin genocides in rwanda/Burundi as well. Because the strife there was the result of the highest pop growth rate in the world.

Re your miracle

"Ethiopia is currently one of the fastest growing countries in the world, with a growth rate of 3.02% per year [and] its population will double in the next 30 years [and] with a significantly agriculture-based economy, it is not surprising that in today's technologically thriving world, Ethiopia has one of the lowest incomes per capita..."

-Ethiopia and rwanda/Burundi will all revert and collapse within a gen or 2. As will any country or inner city slum occupied by a culture that refuses to live within its means.

And no it's not ethnic. Rohingya and uigar et al are also suffering the same fate.
MR166
1 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
".... in concert with a legitimate gvt ....."

Well that is the crux of the problem isn't it! Socialism could work just as democracy and capitalism could work. The problem is one of corruption and every system is prone to that. We just need to create a system that rewards people in proportion to their willingness to work and value in society. Otherwise everything falls apart.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 23, 2018
A harbinger of things to come...

"About 40% of the population — more than 4.5 million people — is under the age of 15, but almost every child goes to primary school. Admission to secondary school, once linked to ethnic quotas, is now merit-based. And university enrolment has risen to more than 80,000, from 3,000 in 1995... Rwanda's extremely tense," said Mr. Sommers. He noted a generation of poor, mostly Hutu youth is not in school and struggling to make ends meet. Such problems, combined with a lack of free speech and a one-sided public narrative of the genocide, increase social tensions."

-40%, under age 15, 80k in higher education expecting jobs when they graduate... a bomb waiting to explode. That near-max growth rate means the pop will double in a gen, then double again, until another conflagration clears the table once more.

I wonder how their healthcare system is going to cope?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 23, 2018
"No, it's orderly little Rwanda, the ultimate 'donor darling', and a government that relies on western aid for nearly 40 per cent of its operating budget, much of it provided by the United States and United Kingdom"

-Same with ethiopia...

"The nation is also significant for being among the most dependent on foreign aid. Topping the worldwide list of countries receiving aid from the US, UK, and the World Bank, the nation has been receiving $3.5 billion on average from international donors in recent years, which represents 50 to 60 percent of its national budget."

-So your economic miracle is entirely artificial and extremely temporary.
MR166
5 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
Onions while we are on the topic of functioning socialist systems is Venezuela a success or a failure and why?
greenonions1
4 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2018
MR -
Socialism could work just as democracy and capitalism could work
I DO NOT advocate socialism. That implies a centralized control of distribution of resources. I don't know that there is an ism that represents the community based social economics that I think would be better. Here is a link if you want to look at an EXAMPLE - http://www.resili...economy/

It really staggers me that you cannot understand that binary thinking is child like. I see it as a means of control by the Conservatives. Monopolize the conversations - present the picture as if there is only two options - and capitalism is the least bad - and we are stuck...unable to have a complex discourse.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 23, 2018
Otto - I did not mean to imply that Ethiopia does not have problems. The African continent faces much adversity. I am not in any way an expert on that subject. The last 300 years have left the continent ravaged by the colonial powers - and of course they face the climatic challenges of being a very drought prone area. War, corruption, poverty, illiteracy, etc. etc. are all things that take decades, if not hundreds of years to change. I think it will happen - and I understand that China is investing a lot in the Continent. The whole globe continues to face issues of war, violence, poverty, etc. I was just pointing that one documentary out as an example of the kind of system that I would like to see us try. I am convinced that we can do better than the shit mess we have created for ourselves up to this point.
Overall Ethopia seems to be making progress - http://www.un.org...ethiopia
Noumenon
1.8 / 5 (5) Jan 23, 2018
Maybe call it - community based, cooperative, restorative economics


Where no one seeks a profit or return on investment, but instead volunteers for cooperative collectivism,... or some other vague liberal phrases? As I said, it seems that everyone would have to drink some magic kool-aide to agree to live for the collective society rather than as egotistical individuals, which they are by nature,.... only to eventually die in a conflagration somewhere in Waco Texas.

greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 23, 2018
Noumenon - your responses are truly drivel. I thought you did not have time to debate the internet - and yet here you are. It has nothing to do with magic koolaid. If you are satisfied with the current world order - why not shut up - and let others explore options if they want. I would give you a link to the Mongradon Collective in Spain - but I know you are not interested in learning new information - unless someone predigests it for you. Mongradon is an example. It is the 10th largest business in Spain. It is actually more a network of semi autonomous collectives - that rather than being responsible to off site share holders - they are responsible to themselves - ie. the employees of the collective. This gives employees a direct interest in the success of the business. They compete with major corporations such as GE, LG etc. So you see - if you took a risk - and actually read some new information - you may not be so ignorant..
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (5) Jan 24, 2018
I did not mean to imply that Ethiopia does not have problems
-No, you were repeating political spin without checking facts. Your miracle is a sham.
The last 300 years have left the continent ravaged by the colonial powers
-You mean white bastard colonial powers don't You? You fail to appreciate the state of the continent pre-colonization. Rampant perpetual tribal warfare and ecological devastation.

"The Khoisan, Khoi and San peoples are amongst the oldest human group in Africa and the world.
Thousands years ago they inhabited most of the South, East and Northeast of Africa... The continual war between bantu and khoi people took a great toll for the Khoi people because bantu peoples were by far superior in numbers... Most of them were killed or displaced from the lands, which had been inhabited since time immemorial by... the KHOISAN people."

-Half the story is no story at all. Endemic violence, slavery, starvation, disease, and genocide before euros ever got there.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (4) Jan 24, 2018
they are responsible to themselves - ie. the employees of the collective. This gives employees a direct interest in the success of the business
-And you should read about the dismal record of collective failure.

"The Kibbutz crisis was an acute economic crisis many of the kibbutzim in Israel experienced during the 1980s and that many still experience today. The crisis began in the early 1980s and intensified after the Israeli economic stabilization program of 1985 during which the inflation stopped, and was characterized by the accumulating of large debts from the kibbutzim and in low return."

Per your mongradon;

"one of the group's key principles—of solidarity among its 110 constituent co-ops—has found its limit. Fagor has lost money for five years and has run up debts of €850m ($1.2 billion)."

- They can't compete with capitalist systems which thrive on competition.

"guess which country has defaulted the MOST times … the answer is Spain."
MR166
not rated yet Jan 24, 2018
It seems that the UK health system has problems also.

https://www.zeroh...h-system
MR166
not rated yet Jan 24, 2018
In the minds of some Utopia is always just one altruistic leader away who never fufulles the promise. It seems that the more that said leader regulates the greater the chance that some group will benefit more than others. In truth there is only one utopia here on earth and that is personal freedom with just enough government to keep the bullies at bay. Unfortunately the "Just Enough Government " part has a habit of growing like weeds in a garden and must be pulled out by the roots every now and again or the whole crop will fail.
MR166
1 / 5 (1) Jan 24, 2018
The one major thing that has changed over the years is the value of the press. It is now an agenda driven toxic mold that has long since stopped reporting unbiased news. One party can do no harm and the other can do no good.

Real information is always filtered such that it fills the current plan.

Facts are sacrificed at the PC alter on a daily basis. As in, this is the deadliest flu season in many years and you had better get your flu shot. The real fact is that the flue shot is not effective (only10%) against this strain of the flu.

greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 24, 2018
No, you were repeating political spin without checking facts. Your miracle is a sham
No it is not. It is an example of trying to fix problems. So you worship at the alter of free market capitalism (I make that assertion - because you are finding every problem you can with any suggestion of an alternative - without acknowledging the depth of the problems that f.m.c. has caused) I can do the same with f.m.c. - Here is an example -
The pollution in Griffin Park and its low-income Parramore neighborhood is violence of a kind Americans tend to ignore
From - https://www.huffi...00000009

But you know what otto - keep looking for every flaw you can find in attempts to create a compasionate world - vs your racist shit mess. I'll keep looking for hope.
MR166
1 / 5 (1) Jan 24, 2018
The activities of the Clintons and the Clinton Foundation are a prime example of press malfeasance. The press will leave no stone unturned when it comes to one side of the isle but casts a blind eye to deads of the other side.
greenonions1
1 / 5 (1) Jan 24, 2018
MR
In truth there is only one utopia here on earth and that is personal freedom with just enough government to keep the bullies at bay
You mean bullies like racist otto. Well MR - you express an opinion. It is just an opinion - and as usual you provide no support. I could give you links to hundreds of alternatives that are currently being tried. You could look for example at Findhorn in Scotland. The transition town movement is another example. There are hundreds. But I understand now that you are totally not interested in even looking - it is just a pissing match.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (4) Jan 24, 2018
No it is not. It is an example of trying to fix problems. So you worship at the alter of free market capitalism
"a growth rate of 3.02% per year [and] its population will double in the next 30 years"

and

"Foreign aid... 50 to 60 percent of its national budget."

- is NOT 'trying to fix problems'. It is making them WORSE.

How come you don't understand this???
But you know what otto - keep looking for every flaw you can find in attempts to create a compasionate world
Adding fuel to the fire is NOT compassion. It is enabling. It is exploitation. It is RACIST.

And anyone who buys into it is a RACIST. Which means you.
MR166
1 / 5 (2) Jan 24, 2018
Yea Onions that is the problem isn't it. Free sh*t is never good enough. The people are living in federal housing and complaining that the AC filter is not working as well as it should. I used to visit many apartments in NYC. One healthy lady in particular stands out. It was a cold winter afternoon and she was still in her flimsy night dress. She was standing near a broken kitchen window and complaining that she was cold and that the greedy landlord has not fixed it yet.

She would not put on the proper clothing nor tape a piece of cardboard over the broken window in order to make things more comfortable.
MR166
1 / 5 (1) Jan 24, 2018
The other part of the article claiming that her problem is due to car emissions is a big red herring. Perhaps she should move to a place that has no cars if her condition is that bad. Or, no steps, no trees, no peanuts, less sun, more sun.......whatever her ailment is.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (7) Jan 24, 2018
Mother teresa didnt love the poor. She and the church loved poverty. Instead of trying to reduce the birthrate she provided overcrowded hovels with substandard healthcare. She withheld pain meds from terminal cancer patients while convincing them that their suffering was the best way to serve god.

And she spent most of her time traveling around, convincing wealthy donors that her mission was making things better instead of worse.

Throwing money at caustic cultures like ethiopia or rwanda or impoverished inner cities is exactly the same thing. Its exploitation by politicians who know full well that the real problem is overgrowth. And they know that free money only accelerates the decline.

They're exploiters of minorities for the purpose of retaining power and money, and your gullible ignorant prejudice is what is enabling them to prevail.

You all have been falling for this bullshit for gens. Nothing gets better, it only gets WORSE.

How come you don't see this???
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 24, 2018
Here in the US poverty among blacks soared since the 60s. Functioning black families were ripped apart by government subsidies. Suddenly fatherless children became a cash crop and a whole new dysfunctional culture was created. Things have improved of late with the changes in welfare laws.

Poverty is big business and it's elimination would wreck the political status quo.
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 24, 2018
That is why the Democrats are so insistent on allowing unaccompanied minors from South America and uneducated illegal immigrants into the US. Without an influx of new poor their political system could collapse in a few years.
MR166
1 / 5 (2) Jan 24, 2018
Plus that it is not like allowing the poor from an overcrowded third world country will help that countries population problem of poverty levels. It will just repopulate with the same people in a short amount of time. So you will have actually increased the number of poor and suffering in the world by your "Kindness". Now, teaching them how to improve their lives in their native country can have real long lasting benefits. Things like digging wells or improving sanitary facilities can be a big help. The good thing about infrastructure improvements is that crooked governments cannot intercept the aid and distribute it to their friends or sell it lining their coffers.
MR166
1 / 5 (2) Jan 24, 2018
A good example of the futility of aid is Puerto Rico. Thousands of containers filled with supplies and rotting food were stranded at the docks because of a truckers strike. Local government did little or nothing to help the situation. They just sat there and blamed our president. The cynical part of my brain thinks that the inaction was a purposeful plan to make more Democratic voters migrate to Florida in order to assure a Democratic win in the next presidential election.
MR166
1 / 5 (2) Jan 24, 2018
Much of the aid wound up in the homes of well connected citizens. There is no real difference between Puerto Rico and Africa as far as corruption goes.
MR166
1 / 5 (2) Jan 24, 2018
The government owned electric company is a prime example of incompetence and greed of Democrats. As of Jan. 45% still do not have power. Now that all of the money is drained out of the utility they want to privatize it.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 24, 2018
Otto
a growth rate of 3.02% per year [and] its population will double in the next 30 years
My google found different numbers -
Ethiopia's economy experienced strong, broad-based growth averaging 10.5% a year from 2005/06 to 2015/16, compared to a regional average of 5.4%
And I will give you my source - http://www.worldb...overview

So - Ethiopia is ravaged by war, famine, drought, sectarian violence etc. It seems to be trying to pull itself up - so I am not surprised that as a racist - you are not interested in any progress - but happy to see people suffer. As long as it is not you right? You really exemplify the values of the capitalist system.
Ethiopia has proven resilient. Over the past two decades, there has been significant progress in key human development indicators: primary school enrollment has quadrupled, child mortality been cut in half, and the number of people with access to clean water has more than doubled.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 24, 2018
Ethiopia's economy experienced strong, broad-based growth averaging 10.5% a year from 2005/06 to 2015/16, compared to a regional average of 5.4%
You faailed to realize that my quote was for population growth. How come? Your biasd even affects your cognition.

YOUR number is the direct result of "Foreign aid... 50 to 60 percent of its national budget." Meaning it will evaporate in a few decades.
So - Ethiopia is ravaged by war, famine, drought, sectarian violence etc
No, it WAS. Which cleared the playing field and allowed for your good times.
not surprised that as a racist
I am not surprised that as a racist your brain will skew simple facts to fit your preconceptions.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 24, 2018
Your quote is from

"The World Bank Group (WBG) (French: Groupe de la Banque mondiale)[5] is a family of five international organizations that make leveraged loans to developing countries. It is the largest and most famous development bank in the world"

-which of course wants to portray it's mission as a successful one. Many don't think it is.

"In Masters of Illusion: The World Bank and the Poverty of Nations (1996), Catherine Caufield argues that the assumptions and structure of the World Bank operation ultimately harms developing nations rather than promoting them."

-ie because it is just throwing money rather than trying to address the root problem... caustic obsolete cultures.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Jan 24, 2018
Here's one I think you'd find particularly offensive

"A number of intellectuals in developing countries have argued that the World Bank is deeply implicated in contemporary modes of donor and NGO [[read - clinton foundation]] driven imperialism and that its intellectual contribution functions, primarily, to seek to blame the poor for their condition... an extensive review of the institutions' implementation strategy of social and environmental standards is demanded."

and

"The World Bank's Integrity Vice Presidency (INT) is charged with investigation of internal fraud and corruption, including complaint intake, investigation and investigation reports."

and

"The World Bank Group has also been criticized for investing in projects with human rights issues."

- Of course. Because their mission is about short term profits, not long-term problem resolution.
You really exemplify the values of the capitalist system
Ha no, your bloodsucking world bank does this.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 24, 2018
And you exemplify the willful ignorance of bigots who will choose facts and manipulate them whenever necessary to reinforce your own selfish Weltanschuung.

As myself and the other posters here have proven.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 24, 2018
More dirt re World Bank

"Kim will lead one of the world's most powerful institutions–charged with saving the world's poor–but also one of its most dysfunctional. It is an endlessly expanding virtual nation-state with supranational powers, a 2011 aid portfolio of $57 billion and little oversight by the governments that fund it... problems have gotten worse, not better, at the World Bank despite more than a decade of reform attempts... "The inmates are running the asylum," says a former director."

-Particularly telling...

"The bank, those inside and outside it say, is so obsessed with reputational risk that it reflexively covers up anything that could appear negative, rather than address it. Whistle-blower witch hunts (see box, p. 92) undermine the one sure way to root out problems..."

-which explains your rosy little quote.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 24, 2018
"China remains one of the bank's largest and most valued clients, even as it doles out development money to other countries and bullies the bank from aggressively investigating corruption... Bank sources cite up to $2 billion that may have gone unaccounted for recently amid computer glitches..."

-And on and on.

Interesting you would value this as a source. This institution suffers from the same flawed structure as your brain, refusing to acknowledge contrary facts and burying valid criticism.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 24, 2018
Interesting you would value this as a source
I think it was factually on target. Maybe you'd prefer Heritage - their numbers seem to agree - https://www.herit...ethiopia
How about some imf numbers - https://qz.com/11...e-world/
You know - I would have thought that as a worshipper of f.m.c. - you would have loved the World Bank and the I.M.F - but that's right - you are not here to really consider any new information - just to have a pissing match - to prove that you are really not a racist. Hey - your words are out there - just like racist trumps tweets - funny thing about the internet.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 24, 2018
One other thing before I turn in. Even if Ethiopia's economy was totally tanking - and the country was in the worst shambles - it would be irrelevant to the point I was making. That is that there are some interesting ideas out there - that I hope we will look at - and maybe do some exploring. As I keep stating - in my view - the capitalist system we are currently living under is a shit mess. I understand that as an angry racist - you are not interested in seeing people who are not as privileged as you - find ways out of the trying situations they find themselves in. So you scream profanities on the internet - and bully anyone who disagrees with your cult. Like I say - I have to sleep with me - and I am looking for new ideas.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 25, 2018
Poor onions boohoo has to call anyone who disagrees with him a racist and a bully just so he can sleep with himself at night.

Sorry but a fat woman who thinks an exotic hairdo makes her sexy is both funny and pathetic. I would think the same if beehives were back in style and white women weren't exercising because of it.

Dey gots dose 3" nails but you still gots to hire dem fo typin and data entry because deys disadvantaged.

You would also think that was funny and pathetic if you weren't a cracker-hatin racist.

And I'm certainly not going to pretend it isn't just because it hurts your delicate sensibilities. Because that would be both funny and pathetic
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 25, 2018
Even if Ethiopia's economy was totally tanking
Like I said, it's not. Because the racist organizations who are throwing money at it don't care about fixing the problem. But it soon will be because neither you nor they are willing to abandon your bankrupt ideology.
there are some interesting ideas out there
-But the only ones you favor are the ones from the 60s which mostly involve taking money away from rich priviledged white people and throwing it at the problem.

And you can't admit that it didn't work then, because you're a racist who thinks retribution is victory.

And so you WILL NOT entertain real solutions that may cause minorities to suffer, like leading healthier lifestyles and only having babies they can support, because your people have already suffered enough already haven't they?

So they deserve all the money their politicians can steal for them while they do whatever they damn well please.

The screed of the loser tribe.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jan 25, 2018
Poor onions boohoo has to call anyone who disagrees with him a racist and a bully


Oh the irony
You would also think that was funny and pathetic if you weren't a cracker-hatin racist


And then followed by this
Dey gots dose 3" nails but you still gots to hire dem fo typin and data entry because deys disadvantaged
Just keep opening your mouth Otto - your racist itch just needs scratching.

The ideas that I am interested in pursuing are not all from the sixties, and are not all failures. I linked to this project in Quebec - http://www.resili...economy/

So now you have something to spend a few minutes on. Spending you time looking for every flaw you can find in that project. It seems to be what you do. I guess hate just needs to hate. Maybe you deconstruct the Ithaca project - http://ecovillageithaca.org/ there are thousands more out there - if you need to focus your hate.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 25, 2018
The key difference between Quebec and ethiopia? Let's see...

Ethiopia - "a pop growth rate of 3.02% per year [and] its population will double in the next 30 years"

and

"Foreign aid... 50 to 60 percent of its national budget"

Quebec - avg annual growth rate = 1%

and

foreign aid = zero

The KEY difference with Quebec is the absense of a caustic culture which means a sustainable environment for programs such as these. Ditto for Ithaca and wherever else your progressivism might work.

Obviously.

And yeah it only took a few minutes.

And what I hate is thoughtless ignorance from bigots like yourself.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (6) Jan 25, 2018
Just keep opening your mouth Otto - your racist itch just needs scratching
"Maya Angelou was quoted in a newspaper at the time saying, "I'm incensed. The very idea that African-American language is a language separate and apart is very threatening because it can encourage young men and women not to learn Standard English." Jesse Jackson said that in Oakland, "madness has erupted over making slang talk a second language."

-Ebonics is another barrier y'all needs to address. While language divergence is the natural result of cultural divergence, well divergence is the whole problem isn't it?

Divergence is segregation. Language barriers prevent minorities from getting good educations, good jobs, and good healthcare and this is also not the fault of rich whitey. It is the fault of the people who encourage this divergence, like yourself.

And if you think I'm racist for pointing this out then reread the quotes from Angelou and jackson.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 25, 2018
And what I hate is thoughtless ignorance from bigots like yourself
Wow - complex analysis there Otto. And so what if Ethiopia in general - is different than Quebec? My point remains my point - f.m.c. has had a chance - it has failed - and there are some interesting alternatives that would be worth looking into.

Maya Angelou quotes have nothing to do with posting this -
Dey gots dose 3" nails but you still gots to hire dem fo typin and data entry because deys disadvantaged
being racist (along with the other shit you said earlier). Just in case you really are that dim - creating a negative - stereotypical - caricature - of a black woman is the point - having her speak in ebonics is the icing....
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2018
You sound like this person

"I, like many other people of color, make fun of white people (a lot). I make no apologies for doing this. You get to be white in a world of global white privilege, and I get to be disadvantaged because of it. Thus, by default, I get to make fun of white people as much as I want."

-Personally, I think stupid is a universal phenomenon not limited to race, creed, or color, and I reserve the right to make fun of it whenever I feel like it.

You have any evidence that I restrict my derision to any specific race?

How come only black people can make fun of stupid black people?
https://youtu.be/PtSfdzvgVLs

How come black people can make fun of white people but not vice versa?
https://youtu.be/QskcjRJ3Ymk

-???

BTW I could only understand parts of his monologue but dose parts dey was pretty funny yo-
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 26, 2018
creating a negative - stereotypical - caricature - of a black woman is the point - having her speak in ebonics is the icing....
Well how about this here
https://youtu.be/z0uFcf7Cft4

-Do you think only white people thought sha-nae nae was funny?

How bout Wanda den?
https://youtu.be/pGt87ffkTEU

NO even I don't think that's very funny yuk
barakn
2 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2018
Yea Onions that is the problem isn't it. Free sh*t is never good enough. The people are living in federal housing and complaining that the AC filter is not working as well as it should. I used to visit many apartments in NYC. One healthy lady in particular stands out. It was a cold winter afternoon and she was still in her flimsy night dress. She was standing near a broken kitchen window and complaining that she was cold and that the greedy landlord has not fixed it yet.

She would not put on the proper clothing nor tape a piece of cardboard over the broken window in order to make things more comfortable. -MR166

Perhaps she thought that a temporary repair would simply enable the greedy landlord (and yes, there are lots of those - were you the greedy landlord?) to put off the permanent repair even longer, or perhaps even never. This is an excellent demonstration of your inability to put yourself in someone else's shoes.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2018
Perhaps she thought that a temporary repair would simply enable the greedy landlord (and yes, there are lots of those
As barak-n assumes guilt based on preconception I suppose we should have a survey - # of greedy landlords per capita vs # of asshole tenants per capita. Perhaps then we can judge the propensity for guilt of 1 side over the other.
were you the greedy landlord?) to put off the permanent repair even longer, or perhaps even never. This is an excellent demonstration of your inability to put yourself in someone else's shoes
Depends whos shoes you choose doesnt it barak-n? You could just as easily imagine youre in the shoes of a beleaguered landlord who tries to satisfy tenants while they are busting out windows and claiming them as a reason not to pay their rent.

How often do you think that happens?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2018
"Rent abatement is a provision that may be included in a commercial or residential property lease. It entitles the tenant to suspend rent payments or pay only a portion of the rent until a landlord completes property repairs."

or

"It's every landlord's worst nightmare—a hostile, angry tenant who destroys the property because he or she is mad about eviction proceedings. Tenants like this figure they have nothing to lose and get revenge on the mean landlord by causing thousands of dollars in damage to the structure and breaking or stealing appliances.

"From smashing windows, tearing up carpet, punching holes in the walls and ripping out appliances, an angry tenant can really cause damage to the rental."

-Whose shoes do you feel more comfortable in?
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 26, 2018
Otto -
Well how about this here
And what exactly is your point? The construction of racist stereotypes is problematic. Way off topic - and way too big a topic for 1000 characters on physorg. Here is discussion of a well known racist stereotype on the Simpsons - https://www.highs...reotype/

But this is science board - and we are talking about the problems of the health care system. You are just showing your racist side over and over - now going into a racial stereotype of black women - which of course has absolutely nothing to do health care, or the U.S. economic/political system. It is strange talking with people like you Noumenon and MR - who clearly have no empathy for anyone else who does not share your white male privilege, and also this weird - self centered - one sided - cock eyed view of the world. Hate is OK - as long as it goes outward....
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2018
what exactly is your point? The construction of racist stereotypes is problematic
So you do think Martin Lawrence and the other black comedians are racist correct?
who clearly have no empathy for anyone else who does not share your white male privilege
Sorry asshole you called me racist. Now you've got to call those black comedians racist for making fun of the same things I did.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2018
And you have to call this guy racist
https://youtu.be/QskcjRJ3Ymk

-for making fun of white people.

And you've got to call this guy racist
https://youtu.be/3IZpPRrI_F8

-for making fun of everybody.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 26, 2018
Ralphie may even made fun of himself
https://youtu.be/vu_9hQIj_Io

That's especially racist don't you think?

Poor ralphie ate himself to death so sad haha

-But seriously he too was an unnecessary burden on our healthcare system, wasnt he?
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 27, 2018
Sorry asshole
You're so sophisticated with your arguments. I showed you a discussion of the racist stereotype of Apu on the Simpsons. Many commentators from Asia have weighed in on the discussion - and the Simpsons creators have now stated that because of the difficult nature of comedy, and racial stereotyping - they would not create a character like Apu. In other words they concede that it is racist - even though they of course were trying to create comedy.

Now - there is a big difference between a black/mexican/asian etc. comedian - making fun of a stereotype of his/her own ethnic group - and you - getting on a science board - and totally out of context - generating a stupid/offensive racial stereotype of a black woman. I think the subtlety of the issue is lost on you - so you resort to being an angry/rude ignoramus - and calling people asshole. But keep digging Otto - the hole gets bigger.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Jan 28, 2018
Now - there is a big difference between a black/mexican/asian etc. comedian - making fun of a stereotype of his/her own ethnic group
I think you're being a little liberal about your use of the term group. Martin Lawrence was not a member of the same group as the one he was making fun of.

People in his group are just as alarmed and embarrassed as he is about the actions of the group he is making fun of. Ditto with Jesse Jackson and Maya Angelou.

We've had this discussion before. Language is the first indication of divergence. Tribalism. Tribalism is the enemy of the state. Tribal actions provoke a tribal response in normally egalitarian people.

That's why people like Lawrence and Angelou resent it. People like you are wrong to encourage it. It's currently being encouraged and exploited by political players for truly evil purposes and by condoning it you become a part of that evil.

BTW Ralphie May was white.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 30, 2018
BTW Ralphie May was white.
And tried making stereotypical jokes about drunk Native Americans - and was hammered for it by the Native Americans. He tried saying that his point was that all hate is wrong. The Native Americans chastised him - saying those are our stories to tell - not yours to use to poke fun at us.

Still missing the point - that there is a difference between a comedian telling jokes about his/her own group - and you getting on a science site - and thinking it is cool to make fun of a caricature of a black woman. Nothing funny about that - just racist.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Jan 30, 2018
Still missing the point - that there is a difference between a comedian telling jokes about his/her own group - and you getting on a science site - and thinking it is cool to make fun of a caricature of a black woman. Nothing funny about that - just racist
AGAIN - that wasn't a caricature. And per the OT bigot health care rant of yours - ours is among the best in the world but it cant save those black women whose culture says its ok to eat yourself to death.

And sorry but seeing them walk around walmart in spandex makes me want to laugh till i puke. Or just puke. Lots of women look and act and sound just like sha nae nae and they're funny.

And no that's not being bigoted just honest. I can't NOT laugh.

Perhaps if the 'black community' could be more honest it would realize that most of its problems are self-inflicted. I think that making fun of its most glaring defects is a healthy way of addressing this.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 30, 2018
AGAIN - that wasn't a caricature
You obviously don't know what the word caricature means. This
Dey gots dose 3" nails but you still gots to hire dem fo typin and data entry because deys disadvantaged
Is a racist caricature.

I think that making fun of its most glaring defects is a healthy way of addressing this
No it is not. If a community has problems - the healthy way to deal with those problems - is not by making fun. White people have problems too (or is that a surprise to you?)

So back to the issue of the great and flawless (in your opinion) U.S. capitalist system. Only 39% of Americans could cover a $1,000 emergency. - https://www.cnbc....ncy.html

That is a mighty f*cked up system. I hope that we fully process that reality - and try to do better.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Jan 30, 2018
Is a racist caricature
No its not. Its an accurate depiction of the way many blacks talk. But if I was doing a schwarzenegger or a joan rivers or a boss hogg would you call me a racist? How about a tonto or a montgomery scott or a sean connery?
White people have problems too (or is that a surprise to you?
Well the quote from the black woman I posted says she enjoys making fun of whites. And Im sure its not to compel them to improve. So shes racist right? Like yourself for using the term white privilege.
Only 39% of Americans could cover a $1,000 emergency
And how does this compare with other countries? And is this because a fair percentage arent saving responsibly? And whats your solution? Hand out money as youve suggested in the past?

And how old is that statistic? Because the latest statistics Ive seen show black and hispanic unemployment at all time lows.

Any answers to any of these questions that are not bigoted antiwhite pro bullshit libtard?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 30, 2018
https://youtu.be/dp9Tiu8epC8

Maybe she can produce but the people around her would be laughing too hard to work I suspect.

And I also suspect she isnt really typing.

And what do we make of this?
https://www.youtu...pYeZR_Bo

What would maya or jesse have to say about it besides 'say wut??'
greenonions1
not rated yet Jan 31, 2018
But if I was doing a schwarzenegger or a joan rivers or a boss hogg would you call me a racist?
No - because you would not be caricaturing a whole group of people in a negative manner - it is staggering that you do not realize such a basic distinction. It also leaves the obvious point - that I keep making - and you seem to dense to get - that this is a science site - and we were discussing the messed up nature of our health care system. This thread is not about caricaturing black people. That was your choice.

Any answers to any of these questions that are not bigoted antiwhite pro bullshit libtard?
You continue to amaze with the sophistication of your discourse (sarcasm).
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Jan 31, 2018
No - because you would not be caricaturing a whole group of people in a negative manner
I see... so you're saying all black people talk like sha nae nae. More evidence that you're the bigot here.
and we were discussing the messed up nature of our health care system
No we werent. That's not the topic is it?
greenonions1
not rated yet Feb 01, 2018
I see... so you're saying all black people talk like sha nae nae
Never said that. I am saying that when you type a sentence like this
Dey gots dose 3" nails but you still gots to hire dem fo typin and data entry because deys disadvantaged
You are the racist who is caricaturing a whole race of people. Good try at twisting your racism around. Goes along with the overall sophistication of your debate "I know you are but what am I." Talk about a five year old.

No we werent. That's not the topic is it?
That WAS the topic - until you decided to detour off into your racism.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Feb 02, 2018
"Flawed US-led world order to blame for American political crises at home and abroad"
-Nothing in this article about health care.
a whole race of people
-and you still seem to think that criticizing dimwits who eat themselves to death and talk like sha nae nae, is somehow disparaging 'a whole race'. Which is understandable as you think that a whole 'race' of white people enjoy some priviledge that a whole 'race' of black people don't.

You're the bigot here and you obviously think you have every right to be one.

This is what tribalism feels like.
greenonions1
not rated yet Feb 02, 2018
Nothing in this article about health care
But in discussing that flawed US led world order - I used the health care system as an exam of the dysfunction of the U.S.

criticizing dimwits who eat themselves to death and talk like sha nae nae, is somehow disparaging 'a whole race
Nope - I think making fun of black women - by creating a caricature the way you did - is racist. Pretty straight forward really.

You're the bigot
The five year old comes out again - "I know you are but what am I." So mature Otto - I d understand that the one thing a racist hates - is being called a racist.

TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Feb 02, 2018
Nope - I think making fun of black women - by creating a caricature the way you did - is racist. Pretty straight forward really
AGAIN - you're saying that ALL black women are sha nae nae. I'm saying that the minority of black women who act like sha nae nae are legitimate targets for derision.

So did Martin Lawrence which is WHY he made her up.

Why do you think all black women are like sha nae nae green onions? Does Michelle Obama look and act like sha nae nae?

Zazie beetz certainly doesn't remind one of sha nae nae does she?
https://www.video...a/935008
greenonions1
not rated yet Feb 03, 2018
AGAIN - you're saying that ALL black women are sha nae nae
No I am not. You really have trouble with basic concepts don't you?

Let me help you. If you wrote a sentence - describing a caricature of a Native American - who was always drunk, wore face paint, and had feathers in his hair - that would be racist. If I called you a racist for constructing that caricature - I would not be saying that ALL Native Americans are like that, or even that any Native Americans are like that. I would simply be pointing out your racist construction. Interesting that this is so difficult for you.

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