Present-day Lebanese descend from Biblical Canaanites, genetic study suggests

July 27, 2017
This photograph shows a large jar burial containing the remains of one of the individuals sequenced in the study. Credit: Dr. Claude Doumet-Serhal - The Sidon excavation

In the most recent whole-genome study of ancient remains from the Near East, Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute scientists and their collaborators sequenced the entire genomes of 4,000-year-old Canaanite individuals who inhabited the region during the Bronze Age, and compared these to other ancient and present-day populations. The results, published today (27 July) in the American Journal of Human Genetics suggest that present-day Lebanese are direct descendants of the ancient Canaanites.

The Near East is often described as the cradle of civilisation. The Bronze Age Canaanites, later known as the Phoenicians, introduced many aspects of society that we know today - they created the first alphabet, established colonies throughout the Mediterranean and were mentioned several times in the Bible.

However, historical records of the Canaanites are limited. They were mentioned in ancient Greek and Egyptian texts, and the Bible which reports widespread destruction of Canaanite settlements and annihilation of the communities. Experts have long debated who the Canaanites were genetically, what happened to them, who their ancestors were and if they had any descendants today.

In the first study of its kind, scientists have uncovered the genetics of the Canaanite people and a firm link with people living in Lebanon today. The team discovered that more than 90 per cent of present-day Lebanese ancestry is likely to be from the Canaanites, with an additional small proportion of ancestry coming from a different Eurasian population. Researchers estimate that new Eurasian people mixed with the Canaanite population about 2,200 to 3,800 years ago at a time when there were many conquests of the region from outside.

This photograph shows the Sidon excavation site which included the burials of the studied individuals. Credit: Dr. Claude Doumet-Serhal - The Sidon excavation

The analysis of ancient DNA also revealed that the Canaanites themselves were a mixture of local people who settled in farming villages during the Neolithic period and eastern migrants who arrived in the area around 5,000 years ago.

In the study, researchers sequenced whole genomes of five Canaanite individuals who lived 4,000 years ago in a city known as Sidon in present-day Lebanon. Scientists also sequenced the genomes of 99 present-day Lebanese and analysed the genetic relationship between the ancient Canaanites and modern Lebanese.

Dr Marc Haber, first author from the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, said: "It was a pleasant surprise to be able to extract and analyse DNA from 4,000-year-old human remains found in a hot environment, which is not known for preserving DNA well. We overcame this challenge by taking samples from the petrous bone in the skull, which is a very tough bone with a high density of ancient DNA. This method of extraction combined with the lowering costs of whole genome sequencing made this study possible."

This photograph shows the burial of a single sub adult individual sequenced in the study. Credit: Dr. Claude Doumet-Serhal - The Sidon excavation

Dr Claude Doumet-Serhal, co-author and Director of the Sidon excavation site* in Lebanon, said: "For the first time we have genetic evidence for substantial continuity in the region, from the Bronze Age Canaanite population through to the present day. These results agree with the continuity seen by archaeologists. Collaborations between archaeologists and geneticists greatly enrich both fields of study and can answer questions about ancestry in ways that experts in neither field can answer alone."

Dr Chris Tyler-Smith, lead author from the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, said: "Genetic studies using ancient DNA can expand our understanding of history, and answer questions about the likely origins and descendants of enigmatic populations like the Canaanites, who left few written records themselves. Now we would like to investigate the earlier and later genetic history of the Near East, and how it relates to the surrounding regions."

Explore further: Genetics reveal 50,000 years of independent history of aboriginal Australian people

More information: Marc Haber et al. (2017) Continuity and admixture in the last five millennia of Levantine history from ancient Canaanite and present-day Lebanese genome sequences. American Journal of Human Genetics. DOI: 10.1016/j.ajhg.2017.06.013

* www.sidonexcavation.com

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EmceeSquared
4.5 / 5 (2) Jul 27, 2017
This article's DOI reference (10.1016/j.ajhg.2017.06.013) is wrong.

The correct DOI URL is:
https://doi.org/10.1101/142448
EmceeSquared
3.5 / 5 (2) Jul 27, 2017
This study says Lebanon's population's DNA is 90% Canaanite. But they sequenced only 99 modern Lebanese people's DNA, in a country of over 6.1 million people. Lebanon's ethnic population and its subpopulation boundaries aren't even officially known, as no official census has been conducted since 1932. There's no way to know whether the study's sample is representative of Lebanon's population. It's entirely possible that the scientists studied an extraordinary clique that is descended from Canaanites, perhaps largely within a single family.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (4) Jul 27, 2017
"Tel Aviv University archaeologist Ze'ev Herzog wrote in the Haaretz newspaper:
"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai."

-Every new scientific revelation only reinforces the fact that the israelites are a myth and the bible, and by extension all the religions which depend upon it, are all lies.
EmceeSquared
3.5 / 5 (2) Jul 27, 2017
"Tel Aviv University archaeologist Ze'ev Herzog wrote in the Haaretz newspaper:
"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel.


Archaeologists have not learned that Israelites did not do those things. While archaelogists have not learned that Israelites did those things, archaeologists have not found evidence that Israelites did not do those things. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It's increasingly difficult to infer that Israelites could have done those things, as a more complete record of those times emerges from actual evidence. But the record is still scanty for that long period (about 1000 years) a long time ago (about 2-3000 years), so there's still room for discovery. Whether that supports or denies legend depends on the actual evidence.
Lex Talonis
1 / 5 (3) Jul 28, 2017
The israelites were invented by Jesus to explain his son of god status, as defined by the catholics.
Shootist
1 / 5 (1) Jul 28, 2017
The israelites were invented by Jesus to explain his son of god status, as defined by the catholics.


So the 1000 years of text that predates Jesus was conjured as if by magic?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jul 28, 2017
The israelites were invented by Jesus to explain his son of god status, as defined by the catholics.


So the 1000 years of text that predates Jesus was conjured as if by magic?
PsychoLex is baiting you dude. But as archeology has told us that none of the major OT stories are true, because we now know that other things were going on back then that would have made them impossible, we can conclude with confidence that they are the product of imagination and deception.

Additionally, according to Dr shlomo sand and many others, we now know that things like the diaspora never happened. Like the canaanites the Hebrews were never driven out of Palestine. The mishnah was composed there by a thriving community of Jews a century or 2 after the destruction of the temple.

Jews had been busy scattering themselves around the known world for centuries through propagation and proselytism. Xianity was created and tailored in part to counter this incursion.
RMWST
not rated yet Jul 29, 2017
This research might just validate the Bible instead of disproving. After all, Sidon was mentioned as never been taken by the Israelites (Judges 1:31).

"Tel Aviv University archaeologist Ze'ev Herzog wrote in the Haaretz newspaper..."
"Additionally, according to Dr shlomo sand..."
Funny that these folks are rather outdated now or regarded as fringe:
http://www.biblic...-palace/
http://www.timeso...onquest/
https://en.wikipe...h_People
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jul 29, 2017
The first sentence of the first reference that rmwst provides;

"There can be little doubt that King David had a palace."

- And as evidence for this certitude the 2006 source cites scripture. Eilat Mazar is a discredited religionist who uses scripture to identify and date stone walls.

But there is no evidence whatsoever for great Jewish kingdoms as described in the bible but plenty for similar kingdoms in the vicinity.

None.

Did god eliminate all the evidence and replace it with totally convincing contrary evidence? Does he lie to us in order to find out how much we trust him?

The 2nd ref is a similar religionist screed which uses the old deception of using historical context to try to legitimise biblical myth. You know, NYC is a real place so Spiderman must live there.

And the 3rd is the wiki article on shlomo sands book which offers more support than criticism. Most critics fail to distinguish between ashkenazi and sephardim.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jul 29, 2017
Here is a more honest critique of Dr Sand's book from haaretz
http://www.haaret...F1B01D01

-It tells us that most scholars already know what he is presenting to the general public. Most biblical scholars learn early on about all the lies to be found in the bible. But most are also taught how to be good apologists skilled in hiding them from the congregation.
rrwillsj
5 / 5 (1) Jul 29, 2017
Everybody only listens the stories they want to believe.

Nobody wants to listen to the stories that contradict their beliefs.

With a smirk, Caesar trolls Britannicus. "Ahh, Britannicus....You are confusing the primitive customs of your squalid tribal village, with the laws of the universe!"
RMWST
5 / 5 (1) Jul 30, 2017
Wrong. Eilat Mazar remains a recognized archaeologist:
http://archaeolog...latm.asp

"But there is no evidence whatsoever for great Jewish kingdoms as described in the bible but plenty for similar kingdoms in the vicinity."
Wrong again. Eilat Mazar's discoveries are a start, along with the Merneptah Stela and the Tel-Dan stela.

"...old deception of using historical context to try to legitimise biblical myth."
In that case why should we believe your assertion about supposed plenty of evidence for similar kingdoms in the vicinity? You've undermined your own logic.

RMWST
5 / 5 (1) Jul 30, 2017
"Here is a more honest critique of Dr Sand's book from haaretz"
Here's something else from Haaretz (Though much behind a paywall):
http://www.haaret...1.684374

Other ideas:
http://www.israca...view.pdf
http://jewlicious...-schama/
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jul 30, 2017
a start, along with the Merneptah Stela and the Tel-Dan stela
'Discoveries' all disproven. Kingdoms to rival Greece and Egypt and all they find is one stone that might say David or uncle or something? Where are the roads, the cities, the monuments? When we discovered the hittites we began to find all of that.

The other kingdoms and empires all mention each other; none mentions Israel or Solomon, the greatest king that ever lived. How come?

""Really, it's a myth," Dr. [Zahi] Hawass said of the story of the Exodus, as he stood at the foot of a wall built during what is called the New Kingdom.

""If they get upset, I don't care," Dr. Hawass said. "This is my career as an archaeologist. I should tell them the truth. If the people are upset, that is not my problem.""

Never happened. Never existed.

Stop the lies.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jul 30, 2017
The hittites were found in an unexplored part of turkey. In contrast the holy land is perhaps the most thoroughly investigated area in the world. Archeologists, many of them very religious indeed, have been digging there for over a century and all they find is sound contrary evidence like the above article that adds to the conclusion that the bible is full of lies.

Not honest misunderstandings, not mistakes, but deliberate fabrications.

"the settlement of Nazareth came into existence in the early second century C.E., well after the time of Christ."

-A Byzantine settlement established by xians.
RMWST
5 / 5 (1) Jul 30, 2017
Wrong again, they are not disproven. Why the Tel Dan stela is regarded as valid and is prominently displayed in Israel's national museum.

Where is it said that they rival Greece and Egypt in the first place? The Merneptah stela already mentions Israel.

The same Zahi Hawass that has apparently been deposed for alleged corruption and incompetency and a known hater of Israel? One wonders about his objectivity.
http://www.smiths...2319337/

RMWST
5 / 5 (1) Jul 30, 2017
Funny thing but there was a time when the Hittites were known from only the Bible and they were regarded as mythical.

Archaeology in Israel is not so thorough as you think, precisely because they have to deal with potential of conflict with Palestinians and Arabs:
http://www.abc.ne.../3184902

And you are really wrong with Nazareth. Nazareth certainly existed in the first century AD:
https://www.lives...eth.html
Ojorf
5 / 5 (1) Jul 31, 2017
Gee guys, who really cares what exactly is historically accurate in the bible (or any religious text) and what not?
(obviously apart from people interested in the real history)
We know without a doubt that all our 'gods' are fictional, so what difference does it make which tribes were where and whether some religious text got it wrong or right?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jul 31, 2017
Thank you for the opportunity to debunk yet another ancient Xian tourist trap, Jesus house

"... once we incorporate the correct later chronology of the site (cf. the following sections), then it becomes clear that "the earliest soil layer" dates to Middle-Late Roman times. This will account for items 1-3 above which Dark has transposed to an earlier period. However, this will also account for the contents of the box of Senès—items
3–6—for those contents are from "the earliest soil layer." In this way, we see that—when the correct chronology of the site is introduced—all the movable artifacts are Middle-Late Roman in date."
http://www.academ..._Convent
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jul 31, 2017
Cont>
"Dark also makes errors of a rudimentary nature, errors which reveal him to be embarrassingly unfamiliar with the subfield of Palestinian archaeology. Those errors, unfortunately, nullify his major conclusions regarding the Sisters of Nazareth convent site. They include false datings for kokh-type tombs in the Galilee, as well as the direct application of Judean chronologies to Galilean evidence, resulting in a chronology for Nazareth which is approximately two centuries too early."
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jul 31, 2017
Why the Tel Dan stela is regarded as valid and is prominently displayed in Israel's national museum
Well sure it's a genuine artifact but the stuff ON it does not confirm any great kingdoms. It may refer to a dynasty of omri, that, if real, was already identifying with a mythical forebear.

Athens and Heracleion were also named for mythical creatures.

And here's your most egregious lie
The same Zahi Hawass that has apparently been deposed for alleged corruption and incompetency
-I suspect you already know that prof Hawass was a victim of the Muslim brotherhood under President Morsi. You know, religionists like yourself. Who will strive to suppress the truth whenever they get the chance. Like youre doing here.

Luckily we now have the internet and instant access to complete stories and honest truth. And this will ultimately be the end of you.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Jul 31, 2017
Gee guys, who really cares what exactly is historically accurate in the bible (or any religious text) and what not?
Religion is the main source of bigotry and violence in the world today. It has been for millenia. And it draws it's power from books written by perfect gods.

But how can perfect gods exist if we can prove they wrote books full of Lies? And if these gods lied about the past, how can you trust them when they promise to grant all your wishes and let you live forever in paradise?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jul 31, 2017
Here's an interesting in-depth discussion of the Nazareth myth
http://www.jesusn...reth.htm

-And a revealing expose of how godders get things done
http://www.jesusn...reth.html
RMWST
5 / 5 (1) Aug 01, 2017
And what qualifies as a great kingdom? Only something as great as the Mongol Empire? In that case then Egypt never existed either. What about Omri?

I'm not sure what your religionist angle is. After all, I understand Zahi is also a Muslim and that makes him closer to the Muslim Brotherhood than somebody of non-religious background, isn't it?

The internet also lets one know about Zahi's Jewish conspiracy theories so again one wonders about his objectivity:
https://www.memri...re-world
https://www.memri...re-world/transcript
RMWST
5 / 5 (1) Aug 01, 2017
Thank you to for an opportunity to point out that Rene Salm's work is so poor that it was rejected for publication:
http://www.mythic...port.png

Other matters:
http://www.tekton...azex.php
https://www.premi...us-exist
http://themindren...87-ep014

TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 01, 2017
what qualifies as a great kingdom?
Per your book
"[Davidic] Israel grew from Kingdom to Empire, and its sphere of influence – militarily and politically – in the Middle East expanded greatly, controlling a number of weaker client states like Philistia, Moab, Edom and Ammon, with a number of Aramaean city-states (Aram-Zobah and Aram-Damascus) becoming vassal states; the imperial border stretched from the Mediterranean Sea to the Arabian Desert, from the Red Sea to the Euphrates River."

Per reality
"Solomon is said to have rebuilt a number of major cities, including Megiddo, Hazor, and Gezer... later excavation teams at Meggido have made it clear that these structures are from different and later time periods ...stables... were actually built by King Ahab."

- as Ze'ev Herzog and consensus tell us, myths and lies.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 01, 2017
I'm not sure what your religionist angle is. After all, I understand Zahi is also a Muslim and that makes him closer to the Muslim Brotherhood than somebody of non-religious background, isn't it?
You're not that ignorant are you? Muslim brotherhood are the guys who wanted to dismantle the pyramids. Fundys who kill muslims as well as copts and Jews and tourists all the time.

Hawass claimed the Prophet Musa PBUH never existed. This was grounds for assassination.
Zahi's Jewish conspiracy theories
His conclusion that the exodus never happened is based on sound archeology and is the consensus among serious archeologists and historians whether religious or not.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 01, 2017
it was rejected for publication
But it WAS published wasn't It? It was rejected by a society founded by priests whose original prospectus includes

"No country should be of so much interest to us as that in which the documents of our Faith were written, and the momentous events they describe enacted."

-And which has been accused of selectively not approving Jewish authors.

But it's main reason for rejection are the same reasons for all the criticisms of Ken dark. Too little archeology, not enough artifacts, unfinished report.

Dark has enough evidence to conclude that he has found Jesus' boyhood home but his detractors are rejected because THEY don't have enough evidence??

What rubbish.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Aug 01, 2017
Your 'other matters';
1st source
"The recent lawsuit against the rather notorious Christian apologist J.P. Holding (aka Robert Turkel)—whose tone and language have been anything but "Christian"... the Tekton Apologetics Ministries has been brought to its knees and must suspend all upcoming projects... The lawsuit for libel (what else?) has already cost Holding $8,000..."

2nd source
Xian radio - religionist sources are by definition unreliable, especially when they are defending libelous religionist apologists

3rd source
Present some text that can be responded to of this 2nd gen apologist. But again, whether a wandering gay evangelist ever existed does not lend any credence whatsoever to claims that his house has been discovered.
RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Aug 01, 2017
Philistia, Moab, Edom and Ammon were not exactly big powers and this was the estimated size of Solomon's Israel:
http://82.221.105...umb2.jpg
And remember Solomon's Israel did not last long, it broke up in his son's time:
http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/204/993/204993730_640.jpg

Sounds like Herzog is once again outdated:
http://intarch.ac...dex.html
http://www.jpost....t-419024
RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Aug 01, 2017
What about prophet Musa PBUH?

On the contrary, if archaeologists who believe the Bible are to be disregarded,according to you, then archaeologists who harbour anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are also suspect.
RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Aug 01, 2017
Rejected by the PEQ:
http://www.pef.or...arterly/

If it was a 'society of priests' then what was your author trying to do by getting it published there? is he trying to be a priest himself?

'And which has been accused of selectively not approving Jewish authors." What do you care? You approve of Zahi Hawass.

From what I can tell, Ken Dark has been spending actual time and effort digging in Nazareth. Your author, from what I can tell hasn't. So who's more professional?
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 01, 2017
Hmm apparently couldn't get it right on the tektonics site:
http://tektontick...t.com.au/2016/02/urgent-legal-defense-fund-for.html]http://tektontick...for.html[/url]

Far from being brought down to its knees and suspend all projects, it's still going on:
http://www.tekton...tuff.php
http://tektontick...t.com.au
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Aug 01, 2017
And remember Solomon's Israel did not last long, it broke up in his son's time
Ha no remember, it never existed at all.

But also remember the 3rd Reich lasted only 12 years and we do know that was real. And EVERYBODY was talking about that.

In contrast no one ever mentioned Israel, not even Tyre it's bestest bud. Nor Joseph nor Moses nor Joshua nor Gideon nor David nor Solomon nor even Jesus.

Nobody.
RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Aug 03, 2017
Wrong again, Merneptah Stela and Tel Dan Stela. And Josephus's mentions of Jesus.

What exactly is the source of the info for Tyre being Israel's bestest dud?
RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Aug 03, 2017
And how much will be remembered or will remain of the 3rd Reich in 3000 years time?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 04, 2017
Merneptah Stela and Tel Dan Stela... Josephus
All debunked. Thoroughly and completely. For decades. And you religionists will continue to ignore the truth and lie about it forever. Because lie is what you do, the only way you can survive.

But luckily we have the internet where The truth is now readily available. People just need to know how to sift through the bullshit.
What exactly is the source of the info for Tyre being Israel's bestest dud?
Really? You don't know who built Solomon's temple for him? The temple that isnt there that is?

Religionists usually know very little about what's actually in their books. This is probably because of the self-deception they call faith, plus the fact that they are fed only the pleasant parts over and over until they think that's all there is.

This is how for instance they can wear an effigy of the torture murder of a human being around their necks and believe it's a symbol of goodness and mercy instead of eternal guilt.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 04, 2017
And how much will be remembered or will remain of the 3rd Reich in 3000 years time
How much will be remembered of the despised abrahamic religions from that perspective? The ones responsible for far more death and destruction than all the irreligious despots combined?

Hitler the Catholic modeled his NSDAP after the church, complete with a holy book, a promised land, and a holy man who could perform miracles of conquest and consolidation.

Unfortunately the Jews were unable to kill that one but they were still the devil incarnate eh? Ask Pope Paul IV, Luther, and the gospel of john (written by who knows who?)

Hitler was only doing what the church had been preaching since its inception.

In 3000 years the 3rd Reich will be included in the great evil that was religion.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 04, 2017
- And the people will never EVER forget that.

Here's another interesting revelation
https://youtu.be/oKTO8YYs29c

-The temple mount was actually the Roman fortress Antonia which only ever made sense.

Jews will have to find another wall to wail on.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 04, 2017
That's the trouble with actually going out and looking, as opposed to reading books and assuming that they have to be right because they all SAY they were written by infallible beings. And that's why the books all forbid doing just that as a great heresy and an insult to those beings.

Because the people who wrote the books knew that no matter how hard they tried to obliterate it, the evidence would still be there to find. They could build a mosque on the temple mount so that people could never dig around up there and discover the truth, but curious researchers could eventually burrow underneath and find it out.

They could read the books with a critical mind and understand what they actually said as opposed to what they were SUPPOSED to say.

And the religions based upon them would begin to crumble, and the gods who wrote them would begin to disappear.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 04, 2017
Still very wrong.

Merneptah Stela, Tel Dan Stela and Josephus's writings still valid.

Does not quite answer about Tyre.

Internet also allows to people to see how wrong you are.

Suppose people in 3000 years time are like you in the sense of "how can anyone ever believe the 3rd Reich ever existed'. What would you say about that.

And when people do dig up, they do find supportive evidence for the Bible, like the Tel Dan Stela, Eilat Mazar, Ken Dark etc.

RMWST
not rated yet Aug 04, 2017
The way I see it, the Fort Antonia/Temple Mount matter is a reminder that in a region that has seen all sorts of destruction, it is a wonder to have supporting evidence Tel Dan Stela etc.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 04, 2017
Merneptah Stela, Tel Dan Stela and Josephus's writings still valid
You may actually believe these lies or as I suspect you earn a living by spreading them in which case faith is not necessary for belief, only desire.
Does not quite answer about Tyre
How would you know? You didn't even know about Hiram until I mentioned it. Maybe you haven't even looked it up yet. Try 1 Kings 5.
Suppose people in 3000 years time are like you
I'm sure that by then most everybody will have the same healthy respect for evidence. And AI by that time will instantly fact-check and debunk the kind if crap people like you continue to peddle. I suspect that doing so will be considered a crime, or at least a mental illness.
And when people do dig up, they do find supportive evidence
You didn't read the above article. It's typical and undeniable no matter how apologists will try to spin it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 04, 2017
The way I see it, the Fort Antonia/Temple Mount matter is a reminder that in a region that has seen all sorts of destruction, it is a wonder to have supporting evidence Tel Dan Stela etc
It's a fort. It's obviously a fort. For 10k people. Like the vid says, the little model of fort antonia is a joke.

It's an example of how religionists have always suppressed evidence, and of how their lies are slowly and systematically being unraveled.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 04, 2017
And its not just the total lack of evidence for the bible fables. There is tons of contrary evidence like that in the article, being found all the time. Evidence which tells us that these fables couldn't be true because there were other things going on at the time which would have made them impossible.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 06, 2017
They are not lies. You are the one that is wrong.

Thanks for invoking the Bible for Tyre. I too shall invoke it. In Ezekiel 26:2-3, we learn that Tyre is celebrating Jerusalem's fall. Evidently at some point in between, they are no longer best of friends. Isn't it the case that nations that are no longer friends or allies do not usually talk much about the time when they were, like how Russia/ex-Soviet states do not like to talk about how they were one time an ally of Nazi Germany (1939 Soviet-Nazi pact).
Besides, considering how often Tyre was attacked over the years, it's a wonder little record survives (https://en.wikipe...f_Tyre).
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 06, 2017
You are in no real position to say what people believe may not believe in the future. Did you ever imagine that 52% of Britons apparently do not believe in the Apollo moon landings or a quarter of them again do not believe Winston Churchill existed?
http://www.iflsci...-survey/
http://www.telegr...ens.html

Borrowing your own logic, the alleged lack of biblical archaeological evidence may be a case of anti-religionists suppressing the evidence. That's how it works isn't it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 07, 2017
"The names Tyre and Sidon were famous in the ancient Near East... While both cities are mentioned in a number of second millennium BC extra-Biblical documents, the most interesting accounts come from the Amarna Letters. Actual letters from the kings of both cities were found among the Amarna Letters (ca. 1350 BC). Zimrida, king of Sidon wrote one (EA [El Amarna] 144, ) or maybe two (EA 145) of the Amarna Letters. Abi-Milki, king of Tyre, sent ten letters to the Egyptian Pharaoh (EA 146–155)"

-But neither Egypt nor the Phoenicians ever mentioned the solomonic/davidic kingdoms. Nobody did. How come?
52% of Britons apparently do not believe in the Apollo moon landings or a quarter of them again do not believe Winston Churchill existed?
Are you trying to convince me how gullible people are? Perhaps more people would believe in Churchill if he had promised to alleviate their guilt, make all their wishes come true, and grant them immortality.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 07, 2017
They do mention the "Habiru or Apiru... the name given by various Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian, Hittite, Mitanni, and Ugaritic sources (dated, roughly, between 1800 BC and 1100 BC) to a group of people living as nomadic invaders in areas of the Fertile Crescent from Northeastern Mesopotamia and Iran to the borders of Egypt in Canaan. Depending on the source and epoch, these Habiru are variously described as nomadic or semi-nomadic, rebels, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, and bowmen, servants, slaves, migrant laborers, etc."

-which agrees with what archeology tells us, that Jerusalem at the time of 'Solomon' was a little hilltop settlement at most.

Habiru = Hebrew. There is more evidence for this than there is for the biblical kingdoms.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 07, 2017
considering how often Tyre was attacked
Yes and how do we know about how often tyre was attacked? Because there is an abundance of independent, corroborated evidence for it. But for the Jewish kingdoms, none whatsoever. All we have is an abundance of contrary evidence that says they didn't exist and couldn't have existed.
the alleged lack of biblical archaeological evidence may be a case of anti-religionists suppressing the evidence
Ahahaaa no, 1000s of archeologists, some of them very religious, have bern digging in the middle east for 100 years. Don't you think if they had found something positive, anything at all, they would be screaming from the ramparts?

The only ones who are suppressing THIS undeniable evidence, is you guys. Godlovers.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 07, 2017
The point was people in the future may not believe in things that people at present know to be true like the moon landings and Winston Churchill.

I already point out how we know some modern nations do not like to talk about how they were best of friends with some nations that are now considered to be enemies or embarrassments. Besides nobody would claim that the Amarna letters would be a completely exhaustive account of what's going on.

Ironically there are some who would identify the Habiru with the biblical Hebrews, so wouldn't that be corroboration of some kind.

Furthermore I already point out the Merneptah Stela and Tel Dan Stela and also Eilat Mazar's work, which you refuse to accept. Therefore if there was more comprehensive corroboration from Egyptian and other accounts that will probably only lead you to reject Egyptian and other accounts, isn't it.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 07, 2017
There were no '1000s' of archaeologists and besides, among their numbers are believers like John Garstang, Eilat Mazar, Yosef Garfinkel, Yigael Yadin and others. They did 'scream from the ramparts' but your ilk refuse to accept them. Your ilk would only believe those that say it didn't happen. Therefore it seems likely there would be some who would suppress the evidence.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 07, 2017
The point was people in the future may not believe in things that people at present know to be true like the moon landings and Winston Churchill
The point is, people of the future will have more confidence than they do now in the power of evidence. Faith is the disregard of evidence, the disdain for evidence.
only believe those that say it didn't happen
We don't have to believe anything. The evidence tells us it didn't happen. It's a conclusion.
There were no '1000s' of archaeologists
Thousands of archeologists, researchers, scientists of many disciplines and their assistants, all testing what they found, cataloguing it, writing 10s of 1000s of papers, articles, books, theses, etc. For over a century.

This in addition to all the exegists, scholars, hermeneuticists, historians, all building upon each other's discoveries and conclusions.

You mention what - 5, 6? You literally have no idea of the preponderance of evidence and work against you.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 07, 2017
There have been over 100 of them and their associates at megiddo
https://en.m.wiki...cavation

"While the Islamic State carries out its notorious broad-based campaign in Palmyra of vandalism and cultural cleansing, there are another 20,000 archeological sites across the Middle East and North Africa that are also at severe risk."

- All explored to varying extents by professionals from dozens of countries.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 08, 2017
If they can't believe in the Apollo moon landings and Churchill, what makes you so certain that they'll believe in whatever evidence that may exist.

Wrong, your denial of the Tel Dan Stela, Merneptah Stela and Eilat Mazar's discoveries say something else. Evidence does not speak for itself, it is interpreted with preconceived ideas in mind.

And how many do you like to mention? Just Herzog and Zahi?

According to that wiki, I counted 12 names associated with archaeology at Megiddo over the years.

Most of those 20000 sites seem to be outside Israel so probably little to do with Israel in the first place.

TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 08, 2017
The Israelites left Goshen and traveled through the Sinai for 40 years before ending up in Palestine. But egyptologists tell us that there never were 2M hebrew slaves in the eastern delta. They tell us that during the entire time of the exodus and the joshuan genocide the whole region was occupied by garrisoned Egyptian troops who were there to protect the 200 cities, towns, and villages that archeologists were never burnt.

This includes Jericho which had been a ruin for 200 years by that time.

Archeologists in Asia minor, Greece, Iraq, and elsewhere have provided us with evidence of who was there and who wasn't, who was trading or fighting with whom, etc like the amarna letters and your stelae.

Absence of evidence is also evidence. There is tons of evidence throughout the Mediterranean and the middle east for every other civilization. The Hebrews would have been an equal participant. But there's nothing.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 08, 2017
And how many do you like to mention? Just Herzog and Zahi?
Herzog already answered that question.

"Tel Aviv University archaeologist Ze'ev Herzog wrote in the Haaretz newspaper:
"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel..."

-IOW a consensus.
According to that wiki, I counted 12 names associated with archaeology at Megiddo over the years
I see. So 12 guys went out there with shovels and whisk brooms and did all this?
https://sites.goo...edition/

-Notice the size of just that one little team. Archeologists lead large groups in the field. They send tons of artifacts back home where others process and catalogue it all and send it off for testing. You say 12 - what? Expeditions? Team leaders who returned year after year with new groups?

I can't believe i have to explain all this to you.

And I'm not going to be trying to teach you any more archeology that you don't want to learn.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 08, 2017
Evidence does not speak for itself, it is interpreted with preconceived ideas in mind
Ah so you don't understand science I already knew that. But what kind of science can be done when the preconception is that god created it all and explained it all in his book? This kind I guess
http://www.huffin...857.html

-Mainstream scientists arent even using the term biblical archeology any more. Too embarrassing I suppose.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 08, 2017
From the megiddo link

"The Megiddo Expedition is conducted under the auspices of Tel Aviv University. Consortium members are The George Washington University, Vanderbilt University, The University of Oklahoma, the Jezreel Valley Regional Project (JVRP), Fuller Theological Seminary, Loyola Marymount University. The Expedition is directed by Israel Finkelstein (Tel Aviv University), Matthew J. Adams (W.F. Albright Institute of Archaeological Research) and Mario A.S. Martin (Tel Aviv University)"

-Hey I count 8 participating institutions there. If we assume they each sent 1 archeologist apiece, who are your other 4 archeologists then?

No wait - they left out Herzog so that's 3.

Waitwait there's a seminary there and we know there are no real archeologists in those places so we're back up to 4.

Maybe they provided the chaplain.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 09, 2017
Your mernapteh stela

"According to The Oxford History of the biblical World, this "foreign people" "sign is typically used by the Egyptians to signify nomadic groups or peoples, without a fixed city-state home, thus implying a seminomadic or rural status for 'Israel' at that time [of solomon]"

- see habiru

"to begin the origins of biblical Israel with Merneptah ... on the grounds that we have extra-biblical rather than biblical attestation is willful. These texts are, mirabile dictu, even less relevant than the biblical traditions."

-IOW even less relevant than the bible fables, is what hes saying.
IOW effectively debunked.
IOW only religionist literalists could take it as evidence for the existence of the kingdom, and they're not scientists.

- And I already debunked your other stela and your Mazar religionist, who starts out her supposedly scientific article with

"There can be little doubt that King David had a palace."

Outrageous preconception anyone?
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 09, 2017
Though not dealing with archaeology, this article points out the matter of interpretation of evidence:
http://blogs.disc...science/

This article says there were certainly plenty of Semitic peoples of various kinds in Egypt:
http://www.haaret...1.713849

By the same token, Eilat Mazar must have led plenty of people with other backers.

What do you mean Solomon. Isn't the Merneptah Stela generally dated to well before him.

" to begin the origins of biblical Israel with Merneptah ... on the grounds that we have extra-biblical rather than biblical attestation is willful. These texts are, mirabile dictu, even less relevant than the biblical traditions."
This part seems to have come from Thomas Thompson, somebody who refuses to believe the Bible beforehand. As you said outrageous preconception.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 09, 2017
This article says there were certainly plenty of Semitic peoples of various kinds in Egypt
Hyksos were not slaves and thebes is not goshen. But it sounds like youre willing to admit that hebrews were just another canaanite tribe which is the prevailing opinion. Mountain robber barons.
What do you mean Solomon. Isn't the Merneptah Stela generally dated to well before him
So why are you using it as evidence for Solomonic/davidic kingdoms? Again - hilltop warlords as in afghanistan... habiru.
somebody who refuses to believe the Bible beforehand. As you said outrageous preconception
OF COURSE. Starting with the bible a priori is NOT SCIENCE.

"There can be little doubt that King David had a palace."

-is NOT science.

Starting with the Iliad to understand troy is not science.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 09, 2017
Let's see what Dr finkelstein of the megiddo teams had to say about ancient israel...

"'The way I understand the finds, there is no evidence whatsoever for a great, united monarchy which ruled from Jerusalem over large territories,'' said Israel Finkelstein, the director of the Institute of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University. King David's Jerusalem, he added, ''was no more than a poor village at the time.''

and

''Archaeology has shown that early Israel indeed emerged from the local population of late Bronze Canaan.'' In addition, he said, archaeology has turned up no physical remains to support the Bible's story of the Exodus: ''There is no evidence for the wanderings of the Israelites in the Sinai desert.''

and

"His reports from Megiddo that some structures attributed to Solomon were actually built after his reign"

-caused much wailing and gnashing of teeth and rending of garments back in tel aviv.

Too bad.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 10, 2017
Funny thing. Troy was only (re)discovered because someone took the Iliad seriously.

Because Israel was around before the Davidic/Solomonic kingdoms.

That article does say the area around the Nile river delta is bad for preserving papyri.

If there's all kinds of Semitic people around in Egypt, that's consistent with the biblical account of Israelite slaves being there.

Key point about Finklestein, he said that's how HE understands it. Other archaeologists disagree with him:
http://ngm.nation...per-text
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 10, 2017
Funny thing. Troy was only (re)discovered because someone took the Iliad seriously
Homer was a real person who wrote a novel about a real city. Moses didn't write the pentateuch because he never existed. Plenty of independent Egyptian, Hittite, and other evidence for troy, the kind of evidence totally absent for the Hebrew kingdoms.
there's all kinds of Semitic people around in Egypt, that's consistent with the biblical account of Israelite slaves being there
"Semite noun: a member of any of various ancient and modern peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including the Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs."

-You thought only Jews were semites???

Slavers stole people from all over the Mediterranean.

Jesus.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 10, 2017
From your article

"But does David, with all of his metaphorical power, cease to matter if his deeds and his empire are ultimately viewed as works of fiction? When I point out to Finkelstein that people all over the world are invested in the greatness of David, I am surprised by his response. "Look, when I'm doing research, I have to distinguish between the culture of David and the historical David."

-Of course it matters if David or Moses or Abraham were real or not. If they were metaphor then the 10 commandments are also metaphor. And nothing in the entire bible can be believed, including by extension your god.

There is strong pressure from finkelsteins homeland to preserve the notion that god gave Palestine to the Jews, now more than ever. The article admits this. This is why his tone has changed in the last 15 years, and what fanatic pseudiscientists like Mazar continue to get funding.

The only reason.
EmceeSquared
not rated yet Aug 10, 2017
RMWST:
Troy was only (re)discovered because someone took the Iliad seriously.


Your point is that knowledge of the bible is useful in finding evidence that proves bible stories really happened. But for centuries people have been taking the bible seriously enough to conduct archaeology in "biblical lands". A far greater undertaking to "re"discover a far larger target than Troy. That has found absolutely no evidence.

So your example only underscores the total failure to "re"discover the ancient Hebrew empire. It demonstrates that taking the story seriously might be necessary (or at least important), but it is not sufficient. There must also be evidence to discover. Which has been discovered in Troy, but which has not been discovered in the entire territory Egypt through Israel, despite far more searching for what would be a far larger amount. What has been found only contradicts the bible stories.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 12, 2017
"Homer was a real person..."
Funny story, because according to these the historicity of Homer and Troy actually continues to be debated. With Homer the sources of information are apparently too disparate and centuries later after his purported lifetime to come to any conclusion. So who are you to say he was definitely a real person:
https://en.wikipe...Question

"Plenty of independent Egyptian, Hittite, and other evidence for troy.."
What plenty of other evidence, according to this (https://en.wikipe...f_Homer) the only external mention of Troy are brief Hittite mentions of a city named Wilusa which some have identify as Troy (https://en.wikipe...Wilusa). Apparently it's even weaker than the Merneptah mention of Israel and the Tel Dan mention of David.

Why are you so accepting of Troy when aspects of it is apparently even weaker than what you disparage of the Bible.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 12, 2017
"...fanatic pseudiscientists like Mazar continue to get funding."
If you are worried about 'pseudiscientists' then maybe it's Finkelstein you need to be worried about. Didn't he say he's the sort of guy who prefers to be in some air-conditioned lodging rather that take the trouble of getting out into the hot sun to do field work?
"I myself would never dig in such a place—too hot! For me, archaeology is about having a good time. You should come to Megiddo—we live in an air-conditioned B&B
next to a nice swimming pool."
http://ngm.nation...per-text

"But for centuries people have been taking the bible seriously enough to conduct archaeology in "biblical lands...". They certainly do:
http://www.jpost....s-473553

TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 12, 2017
Why are you so accepting of Troy when aspects of it is apparently even weaker than what you disparage of the Bible
Wht are you so eager to accept contrary evidence for homer but not for Moses?

"Mosaic authorship of the Torah was unquestioned by both Jews and Christians until the European Enlightenment, when the systematic study of the five books led the majority of scholars to conclude that they are the product of many hands and many centuries.[11] Despite this, the role of Moses is an article of faith in traditional Jewish circles and for some Christian Evangelical scholars, for whom it remains crucial to their understanding of the unity and authority of Scripture."

- Oh right. You want to live forever in paradise while your enemies rot in hell. Cant have one without the other.

So do the few fanatic pseudoscientists who are left. Or at least they want zionism to live forever.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 12, 2017
Re your khirbet article, it is perhaps the clearest example of how religionists misread science. I can't copy/paste text from it but its full of examples of fanatics using the bible to identify what they find with no justification whatsoever. One statement says "[finkelsteins] strategy to opposed opinions is bad and evil language."

Genuine scientists do not talk like this. Believers like yourself typically regard critics as 'bad and evil' while rational people know that this sort of bigotry is what is truly bad and evil.

Even more so because it is required of you by a being whom you believe to be the only source of truth and goodness.

Which makes it especially foul.

Only religionists like garfinkel (and yourself) would include it in a scientific discussion as if it naturally belonged there.

It leads you to other equally insane conclusions like perhaps finkelstein is incompetent just because he made a joke about air conditioning.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 12, 2017
I don't actually have much objections about Homer and Troy. It is you who are showing acceptance of Homer and Troy but not for the Bible, all the while the evidence for Homer and Troy is apparently weaker in some aspects than what you disparage of the Bible.

On the contrary Garfinkel and his digging partners listed reasons to identify it.

Do genuine scientists boast about not doing actual work because it's too hot and prefer to stay in air-conditioned lodgings.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 13, 2017
You're forgetting that they found troy. A WHOLE CITY.

Conversely they never found any evidence whatsoever for 2M Hebrew slaves, a 40 year exodus, a genocidal joshuan rampage, or great davidic/solomonic kingdoms... not to mention a worldwide flood or a 7 day creation. Only tons of incontrovertible evidence that it all never could have happened.

But none of that matters when you have no respet for evidence right?

To recap
Tel Dan stela: dwd could mean mythic identification re Athena, or uncle or anything
mernapteh stela: outlaw nomad canaanites
Eilat Mazar: misdates anonymous 9th century walls and calls them palaces
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 13, 2017
Garfinkel: "lstein, Israel; Fantalkin, Alexander (2012). "Khirbet Qeiyafa: An Unsensational Archaeological and Historical Interpretation" (PDF). TEL AVIV, Vol. 39. pp. 38–63. Retrieved July 20, 2017. We cannot close this article without a comment on the sensational way in which the finds of Khirbet Qeiyafa have been communicated to both the scholarly community and the public. The idea that a single, spectacular finding can reverse the course of modern research and save the literal reading of the biblical text regarding the history of ancient Israel from critical scholarship is an old one. Its roots can be found in W.F. Albright's assault on the Wellhausen School in the early 20th century, an assault that biased archaeological, biblical and historical research for decades. This trend—in different guises—has resurfaced sporadically in recent years, with archaeology serving as a weapon to quell progress in critical scholarship."
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 13, 2017
You forget that Troy was only rediscovered because somebody took the Iliad seriously. Then again some people have continued to deny the whole historicity of Homer and Troy regardless of archaeological discoveries. They are your equivalents (https://en.wikipe..._Homer).

Eilat Mazar and others have discovered large ruins which they have dated to the great Davidic/Solomonic kingdoms. In other words, they are starting to find the evidence which you continue to deny.

Your claims of alternate translations and interpretations opens up another possibility. What if the Amarna letters and various existing Egyptian and other records actually do mention the events of the Bible, but people have mistranslated the names and events. Remember you yourself are making the suggestion of 'mistranslations' or alternate meanings.

More on Khirbet Qeifaya by the actual diggers: http://qeiyafa.huji.ac.il

TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 13, 2017
Eilat Mazar and others have discovered large ruins which they have dated to the great Davidic/Solomonic kingdoms
Others? Mazar and garfinkel misdate and mischaracterize what they found because they used the bible as a reference and consider scholarly criticism 'evil'.

Troy was only identified after the mound was excavated. They didn't go LOOKING for troy. And they used evidence beyond the iliad, from many people and sources, to confirm it. As usual a godder (you) has gotten his science ass-backwards.

Science is COMPLICATED. Mazar finds a wall and knows where in the bible it is described. +/- a few centuries.

Try to read about troy with some objectivity. Look for ilium.

Oh and nice link to your tourguide pamphlet with the smiling faces. "Look, shards! The bible doesn't lie!"

More on the canaanite fortress by scholars who know what they're talking about
http://www.academ...retation
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 13, 2017
BTW my link has a nice pic of your 'actual diggers' swarming the site and feverishly destroying evidence. Oh not on purpose mind you - they just don't know what they're doing.

Science can be patient but politics is on a tight schedule you know. No time for protocol when religionists throughout the region are desperately trying to outgrow and overrun each other.

The site was almost buried under a housing project. Whew! That was a close one. Good thing they didn't build a mosque on top of it-
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 14, 2017
I did read about Troy with objectivity. And they only found Troy in the first place because two people (Heinrich Schliemann and Frank Calvert) took the Iliad seriously. They DID go LOOKING for Troy. You are wrong. And of course, a funny story remains: there are still some people who reject the whole historicity of Homer and Troy regardless of archaeological discoveries. They are your equivalents (https://en.wikipe..._Homer).

And here's Garfinkel's rebuttal. Sounds like Finkelstein and Fantalkin are the ones who don't know what they are talking about.
http://www.biblei...25.shtml

EmceeSquared
not rated yet Aug 14, 2017
RMWST:
And they only found Troy in the first place because two people (Heinrich Schliemann and Frank Calvert) took the Iliad seriously.


And inspired by the bible many archaeologists went looking for evidence of its stories - and found none. Despite huge effort by many parties for a very long time.

Discovering Troy proves that *where there is evidence* archaeologists find it. Failure to find biblical evidence after so much looking doesn't quite prove it doesn't exist, but it's harder and harder to be optimistic. Especially as more evidence is found that completes a picture with no room for the biblical stories to be true, even as it demonstrates that stories with evidence can and are backed up by archaeology.

Unless you insist faith beats fact on material truths. That's wrong, but that's religion. If that's how you know things, even contrary evidence won't give you the truth.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 14, 2017
The amateur who 'went looking for troy'...

"Susan Heuek Allen recently described Schliemann as a "relentlessly self-promoting amateur archaeologist"

"Schliemann's excavations were condemned by later archaeologists as having destroyed the main layers of the real Troy."

"Schliemann's excavations were carried out with such rough methods that he did to Troy what the Greeks couldn't do in their times, destroying and levelling down the entire city walls to the ground. Other scholars agree that the damage caused to the site is irreparable."

-IOW he dug right through the real troy looking for it. He didn't find it - he destroyed it.

It was subsequently identified as troy by real archeologists only after examining the evidence and not before; what was left of it that is.

Kind of reminds one of garfinkels debacle doesn't it?
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 14, 2017
They are your equivalents
Ahahaaa you're the guy who reads a phrase 'semites all over egypt' and thinks this is compelling evidence for 2M hebrew slaves in goshen... because he doesn't know what a Semite is. And who thinks that archeologists outside Palestine don't matter but at the same time says that an Egyptian stele proves David had a great kingdom.

Re your art garfunkle article...

"The Tel Dan stele ended the first phase of the debate regarding the historicity of the Hebrew Bible."

-is where I stopped. If he was an objective professional he would be acknowledging that

"it does not necessarily support the assumption that the Bible's David was a historical figure since "David" which can also be translated as "beloved" could refer to a mythical ancestor."

-as well as its the ONLY ref in an empty sea. Instead he declares this one word on one stone as a debate ender.

That and the entire weight of the holy bible to back him up.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 15, 2017
"And inspired by the bible many archaeologists went looking for evidence of its stories - and found none. Despite huge effort by many parties for a very long time."
Wrong. They are finding it. Or do you for some reason cannot accept the accepted King Hezekiah, amongst others. And they are finding other evidence: http://www.jpost....s-473553
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 15, 2017
"..is where I stopped. If he was an objective professional.."
Let's see, if we follow your definition of objectivity, then you wouldn't accepting Troy. After all:

Schliemann, rightly or wrongly, remains the guy that found Troy (though Frank Calvert deserves some credit too). And it's because they took the Iliad seriously at a time when most people dismissed as totally legendary.

How did they identify Troy? By comparing the archaeology dig with Homer's description. According to you, that's wrong.
"In Homer's description of the city, a section of one side of the wall is said to be weaker than the rest. During his excavation of more than three hundred yards of the wall, Dörpfeld came across a section very closely resembling the Homeric description of the weaker section. Dörpfeld was convinced he had found the walls of Homer's city, and now he would excavate the city itself."
https://en.wikipe...iki/Troy

RMWST
not rated yet Aug 15, 2017
Furthermore on Troy, there really aren't much external mentions of Troy. The closest seems to be Hittite mentions of a town named Wilusa, which some have identified as Troy: (https://en.wikipe...Wilusa). It's apparently even weaker than the Tel Dan mention of David and Merneptah mention of Israel.

And of course, regardless of archaeological discoveries, there are some people who continue to deny the historicity of Troy and Homer, pointing out various supposed problems. IOW, they are your equivalents. So why haven't you joined them? They seem to be following your 'objectivity':
https://en.wikipe...of_Homer
https://en.wikipe...Question
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 15, 2017
".. Egyptian stele proves David had a great kingdom."
If you're feferring to Merneptah, it's a reference to the existence of a group/nation named Israel, not yet for King David. And now, it turns out not the only one. There's another possible reference:
http://www.academ...10_1-11)

"And who thinks that archeologists outside Palestine..."
This from someone who disparage biblical archaeologists for being too religious or maybe Zionist. But if you have in mind someone like Zahi Hawass, then maybe we should question his credibility too. He seems to harbour conspiracy theories about Jews for one thing (https://www.memri...-world).

RMWST
not rated yet Aug 15, 2017
Furthermore on Egypt, Egypt as whole seems to very hostile to Israel and Jews generally, expelling and encouraging its Jews to leave from the 1950's onwards and harbouring much anti-Israel and anti-Jewish sentiment. If Zionism is perceived as a problem by you in Israeli archaeology, then Egyptian anti-Jewish sentiments should equally be taken into account in its archaeology.

If you like insults about 'art garfunkle' then your Finkelstein is an even bigger joke about bragging on not doing field work when and where it's supposedly too hot and preferring to stay in air-conditioned lodgings.

If you like the possibility of alternate interpretations and meanings to the Tel Dan David, then it simply opens up another possibility. What if all along, the Amarna letters and other existing external writings do mention all the biblical events and people, they were all mistranslated and misinterpreted so far.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 15, 2017
Wrong. They are finding it
No, they are finding things that they are misdating and mischaracterizing. Weve been over this.
Or do you for some reason cannot accept the accepted King Hezekiah
Lots of independent evidence for this king. This in no way makes David or Solomon any less mythic.

Merneptah, it's a reference to the existence of a group/nation named Israel, not yet for King David
That's right. You're the one who used it ad evidence for David. And you're the one who said that archeology outside the holy land wasn't relevant.

How did they identify Troy? By comparing the archaeology dig with Homer's description. According to you, that's wrong
Schliemann was a rank amateur who unwittingly trashed the real troy. According to me that's wrong. Real archeologists identified the real troy as a layer in a mound of layers, by examining the evidence and THEN declaring it troy.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 15, 2017
there are some people who continue to deny the historicity of Troy and Homer
-and there are some who still continue to believe that the bible is a reliable historical and scientific reference. Both groups share the same disdain for evidence.
If you like insults about 'art garfunkle' then your Finkelstein is an even bigger joke about bragging on not doing field work when and where it's supposedly too hot
Yeah you know I've noted a distinct inability among religionists to appreciate sarcasm. Oh they'll pretend to laugh at it but they still resent it. It makes them uncomfortable.

It's the same with senile people I understand. Something to do with faulty components I suppose?
It's apparently even weaker than the Tel Dan mention of David and Merneptah mention of Israel
So?

"There was little doubt that this was the Troy of which the Mycenaeans would have known.[45]"

-says the consensus of real archeologists. They have a CITY.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 15, 2017
-And might I add, biblical archeologists are missing an entire KINGDOM. Despite the fact that more archeologists have been looking for that than perhaps anything else. For over a century.

And unlike troy or the Hittite Empire they know exactly where it's supposed to be, and exactly how to find it.

And ALL they have come up with is conclusive evidence that it never could have existed.
EmceeSquared
not rated yet Aug 15, 2017
RMWST:
the accepted King Hezekiah, amongst others.


If there's evidence of one obscure king from centuries *prior* to Solomon and David, who in the stories had far greater kingdoms, where's evidence of those great kings and their great kingdoms? Where's evidence from their neighbors, among the plentiful evidence of other contemporaries? Or of Moses who staged a palace rebellion among some of the most detailed record keepers of antiquity?

I have been saying the absence of evidence cannot truly disprove the stories, because it's not evidence of absence. But there's no actual reason to believe these bible stories were true, and some good reasons to believe they're not. The only way to be as sure as you is by faith. Which isn't just unreliable guessing - it's not science.

This is a science site. It's not a faith site. Faith arguments have no value here.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 16, 2017
Hezekiah reign was between c. 715 and 686 BC
Solomon are circa 970 to 931 BCE

-thats 200+ years earlier dumbass. You do understand that 'before christ' the centuries are counted backwards? No?
Faith arguments have no value here
People who dont know what theyre talking about have no value here.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 16, 2017
Merneptah is used as an evidence for the existence of a nation/group named Israel itself. And Israel is meant to predate David and Solomon. And now it's not the only one, with the possible Berlin Relief as another even earlier example.

Since you believe biblical archaeology is 'tainted' by religion or Zionism, then Egyptian archaeology must be 'tainted' too by its reported anti-Israel sentiment: https://www.adl.o...revalent

Schliemann, for all his faults, was the discoverer of Troy. And he did it by taking the Iliad seriously in the first place. Dorpfeld, who apparently made the 'decisive' identification, was another who took the Iliad seriously in the first place. And it was done by referring to descriptions of Troy in the Iliad with the archaeology. According to you, that's wrong (you claim it's not right to refer to the Bible in the first place):
https://en.wikipe...örpfeld
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 16, 2017
On the contrary, the anti-Troy/anti-Homer people are your equivalents, denying or questioning the evidence that's been found.

They have a city which correspond with what Homer described. But for some reason, you cannot accept archaeology that's consistent with David/Solomon/the early Israel era.

I'm glad that you do recognise Hezekiah at least, but one wonders why you find him convincing and not his ancestor David, when the Tel Dan inscription exist.

RMWST
not rated yet Aug 16, 2017
One thing about 'external archaeology' in general which you endorse. Does that mean you would not accept Egyptian history/archaeology if it turns out Hittites, Moabites, Myceneans, Canaanites etc do not mention every minute detail of claimed Egyptian history/archaeology. Or take the famous last stand of 300 Spartans at the Battle of Thermopylae. We know that from a number of Greek writers but nobody else seem to have written about the battle, not even the Persians, a surprising absence considering they ultimately won the battle and went on to burn down Athens. This lack means what exactly?
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 16, 2017
And Israel is meant to predate David and Solomon
What do you mean by this? You're talking prophesy now aren't you?
Hezekiah at least, but one wonders why you find him convincing and not his ancestor David, when the Tel Dan inscription exist
ONCE AGAIN, a real king is not evidence tgat a mythic ancestor ever existed. Athens is not evidence that Athena ever existed.

Drawing legitimacy from mythic forebears is very common throughout history.
They have a city which correspond with what Homer described
Homers troy is a thin layer in a stack of city mound layers. Your rank amateur unwittingly shoveled much of it into a pile. This can hardly be called discovering anything.

Dr garfinkel did much the same thing at megiddo.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 16, 2017
Tel Dan inscription exist
Let me try to say it another way... inventing superhero ancestors does not mean they were real. Does THAT make sense to you?

"Note particularly what is said about King Hezekiah's burial: "And Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the chiefest [or highest or on the ascent] of the sepulchers of the sons of David" (2 Chronicles 32:33). There were several family tombs of David in the City of David. 17 Note the following points:

"Hezekiah was not buried inside the sepulchers of David, but
Hezekiah was buried inside the sepulchers of the sons of David, with other kings."

-Even if any of this were true it is NOT evidence that David ever existed.

You're not ever going to accept this are you?
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 16, 2017
Neither is this evidence:

"Our present Queen, Queen Elizabeth, is a direct descendant of King David of the Old Testament. ... The Royal College of Heralds in Britain accepts this ..."

-nor this:

"Rastas point to the belief that both Jesus and Haile Selassie were descendants from the royal line of David."
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 17, 2017
The nation of Israel predates David and Solomon, just as the USA predates Woodrow Wilson.

You have yet to explain why you arbitrarily accept one king over another.

Like it or not, Schliemann was the discoverer of Troy and its precisely because they took the Iliad seriously and referred to it to identify Troy.

When it comes to 'superheroes' let's see if you will dismiss Pharaoh Ramesses II. In the battle of Kadesh, he invoked his Egyptian gods and then boast of single-handedly defeating an entire Hittite army: http://www.toureg...poem.htm

I understand they have not found the tombs of Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan. Are they mythological as well.
EmceeSquared
not rated yet Aug 17, 2017
RMWST:
You have yet to explain why you arbitrarily accept one king over another.


Because there is evidence for one and not the other. There are books about the tooth fairy and about teeth. Reasonable people accept that teeth exist, but not the tooth fairy. You?
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 18, 2017
The nation of Israel predates David and Solomon, just as the USA predates Woodrow Wilson.

You have yet to explain why you arbitrarily accept one king over another
Evidence you twit. Evidence tells us what is real and what is not. Your book is not evidence.

Your equating Wilson and Alexander the great and khan with David says you have no respect for evidence or the discipline which depends upon it, science. And you don't care.

This shows how deeply sick you are. Addictions often convince us to ignore common sense. Addicts will rob convenience stores. Religionists will cleanse their neighborhoods of filthy unbelievers.

So which is more powerful - heroin or jesus?

I've been wasting time trying to reason with an addict - never works.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 18, 2017
And now they are finding evidence for David's kingdom (Tel Dan and Garfinkel's excavations).

If books are not evidence, then how did they even have the notion of Troy. Also, Egyptian documents must not be evidence either.

I was only pointing out the nation of Israel predated David in the same way the USA existed before Woodrow. And then you mention something about tombs so let's see where you're going with it.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 18, 2017
@EmceeSquared

What do you consider as evidence.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Aug 18, 2017
If books are not evidence, then how did they even have the notion of Troy. Also, Egyptian documents must not be evidence either
Just watched the movie king Arthur. That must be evidence that he existed. I was in NYC once so we know Spiderman exists. Etc.

We're done. You 2 can fiddle with each other. Try to reach mc to count backwards.
EmceeSquared
not rated yet Aug 18, 2017
RMWST:
What do you consider as evidence.


I accept the plentiful physical evidence of Hezekiah preserved since his own time, proven by impartial experts to demonstrate his existence.

I don't consider a book of folklore to be evidence of Hezekiah, even if it does say some facts about him. Without the independent physical evidence tested and verified by impartial experts, which the book of course completely lacks, the book has no evidence.

You consider it evidence. You are not a scientist, or a knower of reliable facts. You are a faithful believer.

What I consider evidence is not controversial. What you consider evidence is not evidence. It's props in a drama.
RMWST
not rated yet Aug 21, 2017
Funny in your Aug 14 post you were claiming there were none at all. So what exactly is it about the alleged plentiful physical evidence of Hezekiah and who are these alleged impartial experts. How did 'your' evidence ever become non-controversial. If books have no evidence then why should we believe anything written about say Aristotle, Pythagoras and Socrates.
The early American president George Washington is sometimes referred as folklore. So that means US history is folklore?

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