In an Israeli warehouse, clues about Jesus' life and death

March 19, 2017 by Daniel Estrin
An ossuary with an inscription of Hebrew letters forming the word "Yeshua", or Jesus, is stored in Israel's antiquities authority storeroom, in Beit Shemesh, Israel, Sunday, March 19, 2017. Israel's antiquities authority opened up its vast storeroom to reporters Sunday for a peek at select artifacts from the time of Jesus. Experts say they have yet to find direct archaeological evidence of the Jewish preacher who died on the cross and changed the course of history. (AP Photo/Tsafrir Abayov)

In a cavernous warehouse where Israel stores its archaeological treasures, an ancient burial box is inscribed with the name of Jesus.

Not THAT Jesus. Archaeologists in Israel say Jesus was a common name in the Holy Land 2,000 years ago, and that they have found about 30 ancient burial boxes inscribed with it.

Ahead of Easter, Israel's opened up its vast storeroom to reporters on Sunday for a peek at unearthed artifacts from the time of Jesus. Experts say they have yet to find direct archaeological evidence of Jesus Christ, but in recent years have found a wealth of material that helps fill out historians' understanding of how Jesus may have lived and died.

"There's good news," said Gideon Avni, head of the archaeological division of the Israel Antiquities Authority. "Today we can reconstruct very accurately many, many aspects of the daily life of the time of Christ."

Israel is one of the most excavated places on the planet. Some 300 digs take place each year, including about 50 foreign expeditions from as far away as the United States and Japan, the Antiquities Authority said.

About 40,000 artifacts are dug up in Israel each year. A third of all the antiquities found attest to the ancient Christian presence in the Holy Land, Avni said. Historians now know how long it took to travel between cities and villages where Jesus preached, and what those places looked like at the time.

An ossuary with an inscription of the Hebrew letters forming the word "Yeshua", or Jesus, is stored in Israel's antiquities authority storeroom, in Beit Shemesh, Israel, Sunday, March 19, 2017. Israel's antiquities authority opened up its vast storeroom to reporters Sunday for a peek at select artifacts from the time of Jesus. Experts say they have yet to find direct archaeological evidence of the Jewish preacher who died on the cross and changed the course of history. (AP Photo/Tsafrir Abayov)

Avni said knowledge of the period has advanced over the past 20 years. "We can reconstruct precisely how the country looked," he said.

In a brightly-lit, 5,000-square meter (54,000-sq. feet) warehouse crammed with stacks of ancient jugs and pottery sherds—what the Antiquities Authority calls its "Ali Baba cave" of ancient treasures—officials set up a simple white table with finds from the time of Jesus.

There were well-preserved limestone drinking cups and dishes, widely used by Jews in the Holy Land at the time as part of their strict practice to ensure the ritual purity of their food. There was an intricately decorated limestone burial box belonging to a scion of the high priest Caiaphas, known in the New Testament for his involvement in delivering Jesus to the Roman authorities who crucified him. In ancient times, families would gather the bones of the deceased and place them into boxes known as ossuaries.

They also showed off a replica of a major artifact located in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem—a heel bone pierced by an iron nail with wood fragments on each end, discovered in a Jewish burial box in northern Jerusalem dating to the 1st century AD. To date, it's the only evidence found of a victim of Roman crucifixion buried according to Jewish custom.

It has helped archaeologists reconstruct how the man was crucified—with his feet nailed to the sides of the cross. Avni said Jesus may have been crucified in the same manner, unlike the way the crucifixion is depicted in traditional Christian art.

Across from cardboard boxes marked "bones" from Bethsaida of the New Testament, a massive stone block sat on a wooden crate on the warehouse floor. The stone bears an apparent carved depiction of the Second Jewish Temple, and was discovered in 2009 at the site of an ancient synagogue on the shores of the Sea of Galilee. Archaeologists have suggested Jesus may have preached in the synagogue.

Ossuaries with inscriptions with Hebrew letters forming the word "Yeshua", or Jesus, are stored in Israel's antiquities authority storeroom, in Beit Shemesh, Israel, Sunday, March 19, 2017. Israel's antiquities authority opened up its vast storeroom to reporters Sunday for a peek at select artifacts from the time of Jesus. Experts say they have yet to find direct archaeological evidence of the Jewish preacher who died on the cross and changed the course of history. (AP Photo/Tsafrir Abayov)

Avni said there is no reason to believe Jesus did not exist just because archaeologists haven't found physical evidence of him. "You have to remember that Christ was one among more than a million people living during this time in the Holy Land," he said.

Yisca Harani, an Israeli scholar of Christianity, said the lack of physical evidence of Jesus is a "trivial mystery."

"Why do we expect in antiquity that there would be some evidence of his existence?" Harani said. "It's the reality of human life. It's either rulers or military men who had their memory inscribed in stone and artifacts."

She said what remained of Jesus "are his words."

Explore further: 11 ancient burial boxes recovered in Israel (Update)

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AKron
5 / 5 (1) Mar 19, 2017
"Why do we expect in antiquity that there would be some evidence of his existence?"
King Tut.
rogerdallas
3 / 5 (2) Mar 19, 2017
According to the legend, when he died the temple veil was ripped, dead people got up and walked around, and there was an earthquake of major proportions. Also, peculiar eclipse-like darkness. No record of any of this. Nada.
rderkis
3 / 5 (4) Mar 19, 2017
If there is no record of any of it, did you just now make it all up? Think first, then post. :-)
rogerdallas
3 / 5 (4) Mar 19, 2017
Please! Get real! A legend is not a record. The myth is unsubstantiated. The myth does not validate itself. No circular reasoning allowed.
rderkis
2.3 / 5 (3) Mar 19, 2017
I don't know about that. I have heard the legend that Abraham Lincoln was an American. Who decides which is legend and which is real? Perhaps it is Captain Kangaroo or maybe you are the world expert that decides.
EyeNStein
1 / 5 (1) Mar 19, 2017
A record is a record, especially when co-recorded by multiple authors.
"Legend" is an assertion by non-witnesses who don't like the content of the record.

The record presents itself for analysis, corroboration and textual criticism. Even from within itself the question is asked "Who do you say I am?"
rderkis
1 / 5 (2) Mar 19, 2017
If you were not so stuck on yourself and your self professed intelligence you would know the definition of a "Legend".
A legend can be as real as you or I.
One definition of "Legend" = an extremely famous or notorious person, especially in a particular field.
"the man was a living legend"
Abraham Lincoln is heralded as a legend by many people.
Please, if you want to be intelligent and scientific, know what your talking about. And more important than that, admit when you wrong.(Like that will ever happen :-)
rderkis
1 / 5 (2) Mar 19, 2017
A record is a record, especially when co-recorded by multiple authors.

So your saying the new testament is a record because it is co-recorded by multiple authors!
Well if you say so I won't argue with you, unless of course you admit you were wrong.
EyeNStein
5 / 5 (1) Mar 19, 2017
The original etymology of "Legend" meant a credible narrative.
However its recent critical usage means a story without credibility due to lack of contemporaneous records.
Thus in its recent usage "Legendary" means a person who attracted narratives beyond credibility.

https://en.wikipe...i/Legend
rderkis
1 / 5 (3) Mar 19, 2017
The original etymology of "Legend" meant a credible narrative.
However its recent critical usage means a story without credibility due to lack of contemporaneous records.
Thus in its recent usage "Legendary" means a person who attracted narratives beyond credibility.


Sorry while your explanation sounds good, it is riddled with relative terms, that have no place in science.
Quote "RECENT critical usage" = yesterday, last week. last month, last century?

And the word "legend"s original meanings "It's Latin origins are in 'legenda' – passages to be read, and 'legere' – to read. However, in a pre-reading era 'legere' originally meant to gather / collect."

But the way you made up your conclusions and presented them as intellectual facts was impressive no matter how unscientific. :-)
EyeNStein
1 / 5 (2) Mar 19, 2017
The new testament narrative records (And their subjective interpretations) are written by multiple authors. The diversity of those authors like Luke (a Doctor), Matthew (A state tax official), and Paul (An intellectual theologian), aid in the analysis of those narratives.

None of these deserve pejorative dismissal as Legend or Myth. Their standing should be more like a first century Wikipedia:- The best efforts of the authors, and subject to latter analysis and critique.
EyeNStein
not rated yet Mar 19, 2017
In this context "Recent critical usage" as defined by Wikipedia means post 1613. As per the hyperlink I appended to that post.
rderkis
not rated yet Mar 19, 2017
In this context "Recent critical usage" as defined by Wikipedia means post 1613. As per the hyperlink I appended to that post.


Ahhh. The God known as wikipedia. One thing we know is., it has no errors.:-)
EyeNStein
not rated yet Mar 20, 2017
Wikipedia may not be infallible but it has saved me a whole lot of shelf space.
And it seems to know a lot more about (e.g.) ADS/CFT correspondence than I do: Or at least enough for me to research other articles and search YouTube lectures until I understand enough to critique the wiki article that started the whole sleigh ride.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2017
those authors like Luke (a Doctor), Matthew (A state tax official), and Paul (An intellectual theologian), aid in the analysis of those narratives
Right. The gospels were not written by apostles.

"...each Gospel is anonymous. The Gospel of John is somewhat of an exception, although the author simply refers to himself as "the disciple Jesus loved" and claims to be a member of Jesus' inner circle. During the following centuries, each canonical gospel was attributed to an apostle or to the close associate of an apostle. Most scholars have rejected the traditional attributions."

-Further they were copied from an earlier document.

"Like Matthew, Luke drew on Mark and added material from Q"

-This dishonesty should be enough to discount the notion that jesus was an iteration of a morally perfect deity. But his story is inextricably intertwined with the OT fables which archeology and exegesis has demonstrably proven false.

Perfect gods dont lie. People with agendas do.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2017
None of these deserve pejorative dismissal as Legend or Myth. Their standing should be more like a first century Wikipedia:- The best efforts of the authors, and subject to latter analysis and critique
-So fiction was invented later on? How about all the apocrypha and pseudepigrapha which describe jesus flying through the air and killing heathens? Was mary magdelene his wife? Was judas iscariot a hero?

And how about all the other works of the period about other gods like buddha, Horus, Mithras, Krishna, Dionysus, and all the earlier godmen whom jesus is an obvious copy of?

Jesus was a trend, a refinement, an amalgamation. He was created by rome as a tool to serve 2 purposes; 1) to attack and disrupt and vilify the jewish people and their state, and 2) to unify the warring germanic tribes.

This explains the bizarre configuration of the godman myth, a cobbling of pagan fables and ritual; the trinity, the cannibal eucharist, the scapegoat human sacrifice, etc.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2017
Perhaps 'created' is not the correct term; the xian religion was commandeered and reconfigured to serve the roman empire. Rome appreciated the power of the godman persona, how it had operated for a millenium to sway and enthrall people, and above all how firmly entrenched it had become throughout the empire.

So, being the resourceful and pragmatic rulers they were, rather than try to eradicate it they made it the official state religion and began to alter it to serve.

They added various pagan traditions to entice conversion. They made jesus and god the same thing, a notion foreign to believers at the time. And they began to round up and slaughter heretics and heathens whose beliefs differed in the slightest.

It took centuries of tailoring and refinement to produce an effective and properly functioning institution.
EyeNStein
1 / 5 (2) Mar 20, 2017
Again my comparison to a 1st Century Wikipedia is helpful. The authors wrote their 'articles' as best they could with reference to prior sources. However they didn't create footnotes and cross references in that era. So they have to be created by textual study in successive eras.
For example: Writers were honest in not using personal pronouns for events they did not personally see; thus switching from 'we' or 'I' to 'they' gives us part of the jigsaw puzzle.
Other highly personal perspectives related in the third person indicate sources of information.
E.g. the perspectives of Jesus mother Mary who "treasured these things in her heart" indicate her as a source for the nativity: Which none of the writers would have witnessed.

And again like Wikipedia successive scholars queried and weeded out the apocryphal to leave the most useful sources corrected and footnoted; and the least useful with warnings and queries attached.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2017
Writers were honest
And how could you possibly know this?

The evidence I presented shows that they were anything but.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2017
And again like Wikipedia successive scholars queried and weeded out the apocryphal to leave the most useful sources
-And which canon are you referring to? Coptic, catholic, protestant variations? What about those passages added centuries later like the last 9 verses of mark or the 'cast the first stone' parable?

And what all the subsequent translations which change meaning like the red sea/reed sea mixup or the 'all is meaningless' vs 'all is vanity' confusion?

How about the fact that upwards of 40% of the pauline epistles were not written by paul, or the peter forgeries?

Where is the unalterable and perfect word of god?
rogerdallas
not rated yet Mar 20, 2017
I've yet to encounter any "holy" book that can even begin to mimic the logical coherence of a mere pulp fiction detective novel. And these ridiculous "holy" books are far less entertaining, and far less enlightening, than even the most pedestrian romance novel. And yet, people embrace such rot and drivel, fight and die over such dreck. Kill people to spread the absurd words of a demented imaginary deity. Very depressing.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2017
Again my comparison to a 1st Century Wikipedia is helpful
-Well I agree. Anyone can get onto wiki and edit whatever they want.

But while wiki has editors who monitor for efficacy and abuse, there is no evidence that celestial mods cared whether the holy books were adulterated or not.
EyeNStein
not rated yet Mar 20, 2017
And there I agree with you:-
I too see no indication in the text that celestial moderators turned the writers into robots or edited their writings with a cosmic red pen: To produce a flawless owners operating manual for all humanity, as some would contend.(Some such people are looking for a book of rules to fight over or a boundary to define a clique they identify with.)
rderkis
not rated yet Mar 20, 2017
"Of course man does not exist" said one ant to the other in the amazon rain forest, "because I have never seen a man!" Not realizing he only knows about .05% of the universe's secrets. We as men know little more than that ant compared with our whole universe, plus there me be more universes and dimensions beyond what we can even dream.
I think most of us here are aware that it is impossible to prove the negative(God Does Not Exist). So why would a educated, intellectual ever expose his ignorance by trying?
On top of that most intellectuals on here will concede the possibility of intelligent aliens. What is God if not an alien?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2017
To produce a flawless owners operating manual for all humanity, as some would contend
Not someone... the book itself says this. The book also SAYS it was written by god in 2 Timothy 3:16...

"Every writing which is written by The Spirit is profitable for teaching, for correction, for direction and for a course in righteousness" - Aramaic Bible in Plain English

-Similarly;

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," - New International Version

-But there is waffling among translations...

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;" - New American Standard Bible

-And even the veracity of the source is in dispute;

"Some modern critical scholars argue that 2 Timothy was not written by Paul but by an anonymous follower, after Paul's death in the first century AD."
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2017
The book also says throughout that god is trustworthy...

"The law of the Lord is perfect" (Psalm 19:7). "Every word of God is pure" (Proverbs 30:5 KJV)

New Living Translation
"For the word of the LORD holds true, and we can trust everything he does." Psalm 33:4

-And nowhere in the book does it say that believers are allowed to pick and choose what to follow and what not to follow. Instead...

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven" matt5

-And by the law he is specifically referring to the OT in addition to the NT.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2017
And so to conclude, when brother EyeNStein claims that the book reflects
The best efforts of the authors
-he is being somewhat blasphemous (and should expect to rot for eternity). According to the book his god wrote that is.
Da Schneib
3 / 5 (2) Mar 20, 2017
So apparently "Jesus" is about as common as "Bob" and the Babble beLIEver boneheads have been confounding anything with "Bob" written on it as being "evidence Jebus really lived!!!11!!one" for the last couple thousand years.

As the Brits would say, "Brilliant!" /sarcasm
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2017
it is impossible to prove the negative(God Does Not Exist)
I just did. You can quibble about the deistic fantasies all you want. The perfect deity claiming to write a flawless book about a bonafide reality, does not exist.

Maybe hes some lesser being who lies and forgets. But that is NOT the omnipotent, omniscient, morally impeccable god that he purports himself to be in his book. THAT god does not exist.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - dawkins

-I give you, the god of love.
rderkis
not rated yet Mar 20, 2017
THAT god does not exist.

Prove it scientist! Show us all how you are the only person in all if history to prove a negative.
Playonwords
5 / 5 (1) Mar 20, 2017
Yeshua, also transliterated as Joshua, was the 2nd or 3rd most popular name in Herodian Judea.

And saying there is no evidence "Jesus did not exist" is begging the question, an honest statement would be that there is little or no evidence Jesus did exist.
Da Schneib
2.3 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2017
Proof there's no super magic daddy in the sky:

If the super magic sky daddy made a rock so big no one could lift it, he couldn't lift it either. And if he can't make one, then there's something he can't do. It's logically inconsistent to beLIEve in super magic sky daddies.

We are stardust
We are golden
We are billion year old carbon
And we've got to get ourselves
Back to the garden
EyeNStein
3 / 5 (2) Mar 20, 2017
The disciple of Dawkins has made a fundamental error:-
That statements about God and his words which must be true if God is indeed God in any meaningful way; apply to the accumulated writings about God by people who were as flawed as any of us are.
I too can write that "God is perfect, and his words are perfect" (by definition) without claiming that this post is 'holy', and that it should be the basis of some new church denomination.

However:- Embedded claims of words (like the 10 commandments) dictated by God, or attributed to a man widely believed to be the son of God, or written of as received by other revelations like 'vision narratives' do need to be examined carefully; before they are given extra weight beyond that due to writings of men: As these are words you may want to set your compass by.
Or you could live your life as inspired by the writings of Richard Dawkins.
EyeNStein
1 / 5 (1) Mar 20, 2017
@Da Schneib
That proof is as dumb as the other example of such proofs I've heard: That if God were God he could make a perfectly round square.
Duh!
Da Schneib
2.3 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2017
@Da Schneib
That proof is as dumb as the other example of such proofs I've heard: That if God were God he could make a perfectly round square.
Duh!
@Eyenstein, that's precisely the point, which you seem to have missed.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Mar 20, 2017
Prove it scientist! Show us all how you are the only person in all if history to prove a negative
If someone lies you can use that lie to prove hes not an honest person.

If a god who by his own definition cannot lie, writes a book full of lies, then that god does not exist.

Perfection is inextricable from the judeo-xian god. If hes not perfect then he is absolutely not the god that all those people worship. If he can be proven to lie once in his book then you cant trust anything you find in it. And the more we look the more lies we find.

Done.

Let me turn it around. Name one condition where a perfect god can be imperfect and still exist.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Mar 21, 2017
Another angle:

The god of abraham is perfect.
The god of abraham wrote a book.
The book is proven to be full of lies.
Ergo the perfect god is not perfect; ie non-existent.

These are not incidental lies. They are fundamental lies. There were no 2M hebrew slaves in goshen. There was no exodus. There was no genocidal joshuan rampage. There were no great davidic/solomonic kingdoms.

Without these stories there is no book. And without the book there is no god of abraham. How else do we know he exists? Revelation? Billions with dreams of john 3:16?
cant prove a negative
-The problem here is falling for philo bullshit reasoning. Can you prove a corpse is not alive? Too ambiguous? Cut off its head and ask if you can prove if a headless corpse is not alive.

Philos invented nonsense thinking to keep their jobs. One of their jobs was to make deistic gods unassailable. But religionists believe in theistic gods with very real flaws which render them vulnerable and disprovable.
rderkis
not rated yet Mar 21, 2017
If someone lies you can use that lie to prove hes not an honest person.


If you had the great intellect you keep telling us about, you would know that proving a person lied to you, is proving the positive. (Answer YES they lied)

let me turn it around. Name one condition where a perfect god can be imperfect and still exist.


I never implied I could prove God exists. Even now, I am still saying no one can prove he does not exist.
As for telling lies. How can a being tell a lie, if they control absolutely everything?
It's like saying a gamemaster that can make the rules up as he goes and change them anytime he wants, can cheat.
EyeNStein
1 / 5 (1) Mar 21, 2017
You try writing a journal over 3000 years of disparate cultures and political climates via 40 different authors each with a very personal take on the subject matter. Spread a coherent message across those authors and books to avoid data loss (like signal coding for a very noisy lossy environment) and see if you can do any better.
Especially starting from violent bronze agers who want to believe in magic apples and talking snakes and retaining relevance up to egotistical 21st century hominids who think they know it all.
Da Schneib
5 / 5 (1) Mar 21, 2017
Hmmmm, I thought they claimed they stopped writing it about 2000 years ago.

Sorry if finding out your super magic sky daddy is logically impossible made you feel all hurt and stuff.
EyeNStein
3 / 5 (1) Mar 21, 2017
My 3000 years approximation included the bronze age when the verbal story keeping Semitic culture first arose around belief in a perfect God not created in the image of man.

(I don't pretend to be an historian so that may be a bad estimate)
EyeNStein
5 / 5 (2) Mar 21, 2017
On a point that is more philosophical than theological:-
As you clearly believe, as do I, that life and 'intelligence' are inevitable emergent properties of this universe.
Why is it not at least possible that living beings outside of our time and space could be emergent (or intrinsic as time is a bit weird) to whatever dimensional space-time preceded our Universe? Beings to whom Planck scale manipulation is just leggo bricks.

Sorry - just rattling your cage: not planning to start a philos.org website.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Mar 21, 2017
It's like saying a gamemaster that can make the rules up as he goes and change them anytime he wants, can cheat
No its not. Gamemasters arent claiming perfection.
Why is it not at least possible that living beings outside of our time and space could be emergent
-Define the bullshit philo word 'emergent'.
Sorry - just rattling your cage: not planning to start a philos.org website
Philosophy - the last refuge of scoundrels and religionists. The black hole of intellectual disciplines where queries enter and nothing useful ever ever comes out.

I just proved your god doesnt exist. Why dont you go cold turkey, accept this reality, and begin to live a clean and honest life?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Mar 21, 2017
You try writing a journal over 3000 years of disparate cultures and political climates via 40 different authors each with a very personal take on the subject matter. Spread a coherent message across those authors and books to avoid blah
-This can explain small discrepancies between copies, or red sea/reed sea errors, or even creative editing at the end of mark.

It CANNOT explain the fact that the entire old testament is about a people who didnt exist.

This lie destroys any religion based upon it.

Give it time. The corpse may still be twitching. Its fingernails may continue to grow. But the corpse is dead because corpses, by definition, are NOT ALIVE.

I just proved another negative.
EyeNStein
not rated yet Mar 21, 2017
"queries enter and nothing useful ever ever comes out"
That is indeed what philosophy is good for: Asking questions. Anything that comes out has to be suspect from a scientific standpoint.
Adherents of Richard Dawkins should be used to this concept: His untestable postulate that God doesn't fit in his test tube or submit to his ape derived mind and so doesn't exist, and so reality must adapt accordingly, is very familiar.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Mar 21, 2017
testtube... ape
-You like metaphors dont you? Perfection is an inseparable aspect of the god of abraham by his own description. Analysis of the book he wrote proves its full of lies.

Therefore he is not perfect ie non-existent. He cant be the god of abraham if hes not perfect. And hes not.

Laboratories are not needed. He has failed his own test.

Find something wrong with this logic.
EyeNStein
5 / 5 (1) Mar 21, 2017
You keep referring to the bible as the "book he wrote".
Yet the text refers to God in the third person (and no I don't mean the trinity).
How many authors do you know who write about themselves in the third person.
Your logic falls at the first hurdle. (Oh sorry is that a metaphor)
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Mar 21, 2017
I gave you some verses above with different translations. 'God-breathed'. Not the only ones. You can search for yourself online. 'Did god write the bible verses'.

Or you can choose to make up any creature you want and call it god, as xians are encouraged to do. This is your personal god. You can google that term as well.

But you still apparently have not accepted that the book is ALL about people who never existed, correct?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Mar 21, 2017
Yet the text refers to God in the third person
"I am a jealous god." -Who wrote that?

"...cannot come to the father except through me." -Who wrote that?

"Whosoever believeth in me shall not die..." -and that?? What book have you been reading?

Or are you just trolling me?
EyeNStein
not rated yet Mar 21, 2017
Not trolling. I've not been this far down this particular rabbit hole myself before today.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Mar 21, 2017
Not trolling. I've not been this far down this particular rabbit hole myself before today.
-and I was a little wrong having just gotten off the treadmill and feeling a little frazzled. The authors purport to be recording what god/jesus said but it is generally held that it is the deity actually speaking through them. Mainly because specific passages assert this as in 'god-breathed.' This is why they call the bible the word of god.
EyeNStein
not rated yet Mar 21, 2017
As you so rightly pointed out: Truth has to be true or it cannot be from any real God.
Truth cannot be subjective: Whether its scientific truth or any form of truth.

Many bible scholars and their adherents are still stuck in the 1950's when science was still believed to be a matter of opinion of great men and teachers.(And thus truth was subjective, and believing something preposterous was a sign of faith.)
We may have to wait for a whole generation to die out before the creation story and Noah's ark and much of genesis can be recognised as the oral folk history of the Semitic people.
Being focused on and inspired (same word translated as breathed) by relationship with a God of truth: These stories speak to the fallibility of the human heart not the mind of the historian or the scientist. This is a different kind of truth but it must be true nonetheless or its a waste of ink.
Da Schneib
5 / 5 (1) Mar 21, 2017
On a point that is more philosophical than theological:-
As you clearly believe, as do I, that life and 'intelligence' are inevitable emergent properties of this universe.
Quite frankly I have no argument with those who believe there is a deity and do not believe in inerrancy or perfect omnipotence. I don't believe in this but won't waste my time trying to prove it wrong when that is known to be impossible. But this is not the position of the Protestant churches, and the Catholics are undecided. You are welcome to believe whatever you like, but I posit that it's very unlikely that there is a deity given the physical facts we know.

The inevitability appears to be due to the inevitable presence of our private universe among the cosmic landscape, not to any deity. I submit that you cannot disprove this any more than I can disprove a deity, and in fact assert that this is far better evidence than anything from Faux "News'" false "equivalence."
Da Schneib
5 / 5 (1) Mar 21, 2017
@Eyenstein, if you truly believe what you say you do, I'll stop downvoting you and am willing to engage. Disagreement need not be disagreeable. I doubt either of us will change positions, but at least we can agree on the details of disagreement. Which is better than 90% of the rest of us can do. We might both learn something from the disagreement, rather than just railing each against the other.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 22, 2017
BTW you CAN prove a negative.
"... you can prove a negative, and it's easy, too. For one thing, a real, actual law of logic is a negative, namely the law of non-contradiction.
This law states that that a proposition cannot be both true
and not true. Nothing is both true and false. Furthermore,
you can prove this law. It can be formally derived from the
empty set using provably valid rules of inference. (I'll spare
you the boring details). One of the laws of logic is a provable
negative. Wait… this means we've just proven that it is not
the case that one of the laws of logic is that you can't prove a
negative. So we've proven yet another negative! In fact, 'you
can't prove a negative' is a negative so if you could prove
it true, it wouldn't be true! Uh-oh." - Steven Hales is professor of philosophy at Bloomsburg U, PA

-Another folk myth shot to hell.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Mar 22, 2017
Quite frankly I have no argument with those who believe there is a deity and do not believe in inerrancy or perfect omnipotence. I don't believe in this but won't waste my time trying to prove it wrong when that is known to be impossible
We are not talking about just any deity. We are talking about a specific god who claims in his book to be perfect.

Per my last post, it is possible to prove this god doesnt exist. To prove something is not perfect you only have to present one example of imperfection.

With the god of abraham this is easier than most. His book says hes perfect. The entire book is about a specific people and their descendants, including jesus. And we know from incontrovertable evidence never existed.

Jesus himself is not the son of god if his lineage cannot be traced to abraham. The efficacy of the OT is essential to establishing jesus' legitimacy.

Ill say it again. If hes not perfect then he doesnt exist.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 22, 2017
I don't believe in this but won't waste my time trying to prove it wrong when that is known to be impossible
-And if da schneib wants to be all congenial and such, he oughtnt to be speaking in derisive absolutes.

He will need to address the specifics of my argument and not be citing folklore by rote.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Mar 22, 2017
And of course Im not the only one who this has occurred to.

"The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible." Chad doctorman
jonesdave
5 / 5 (2) Mar 22, 2017
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

Epicurus – Greek philosopher, BC 341-270
EyeNStein
1 / 5 (1) Mar 22, 2017
As much as I wish there was an epistle to the scientific community or a new new testament with peer review: There is not.
If there was one written in the style of the old and new testaments it would be so frustrating and challenging that the readers would want to stone the publishers to death, and crucify the author.

So good luck proving God doesn't exist because he doesn't appear in the residue at the bottom of your test tube.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (2) Mar 22, 2017
So good luck proving God doesn't exist

Since the one claiming an existence must provide the proof: the onus is on you. As long as no one comes up with a proof for god there's really no point in even considering such an entity (much like trolls, unicorns or Santa Clause. No one needs to disprove these, either. And why should they? Just because someone made them up and put them in a book? That is certainly not enough to believe in them and then require proof that they don't exist. Or did you require proof of your parents when they finally told you that Santa isn't real?)
jonesdave
3 / 5 (2) Mar 22, 2017
So good luck proving God doesn't exist because he doesn't appear in the residue at the bottom of your test tube.


Nobody has to prove the non-existence of such a ludicrous concept. Any more than they have to prove the non-existence of unicorns, or the tooth fairy. It is up to the adherents of such nonsense to either prove its existence, or admit that what they believe in bears no relation whatever to reality. That is, it is just a made up belief system. Which, by definition, has nothing whatever to do with science.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Mar 22, 2017
Eyenstein
So good luck proving God doesn't exist because he doesn't appear in the residue at the bottom of your test tube
"Tel Aviv University archaeologist Ze'ev Herzog wrote in the Haaretz newspaper:
"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom.""

-The god whose book claims these fables are true, and also whose existence is based on absolute perfection, doesnt exist.

You really think your flowery metaphors are going to change this obvious fact?

The god you hold dear is a liar. Which means he himself is a fable composed by liars.

You really think hes still waiting for you in heaven?
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 22, 2017
Nobody has to prove the non-existence of such a ludicrous concept. Any more than they have to prove the non-existence of unicorns, or the tooth fairy
If you read the thread you can see that it is indeed possible to prove that specific, theistic gods dont exist if they claim to be perfect. All you have to do is provide one example of their imperfection.

You need to understand the difference between theism and deism. Deistic gods were created by philos to be impervious to logic. Theistic gods are very vulnersble to evidence.

Deistic arguments are often used by theists to defend their gods but one has nothing to do with the other.

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