Apparent conflicts of interest may dog Tesla-SolarCity deal

June 26, 2016 by Michael Liedtke And Bernard Condon
In this Wednesday, Dec. 2, 2015, file photo, Tesla Motors Inc. CEO Elon Musk delivers a speech at the Paris Pantheon Sorbonne University as part of the United Nations Climate Change Conference in Paris. Musk, who is the chairman and largest shareholder of Tesla Motors and SolarCity, has proposed to unite the two companies. The overlap created a glaring conflict of interest that's fueling concerns about whether Musk is milking Tesla's higher market value and better brand recognition to bail out SolarCity, a company run by his cousin, Lyndon Rive. (AP Photo/Francois Mori, File)

It's a proposal that would unite two companies on shaky financial ground as they plow into relatively new markets. One makes electric cars, the other installs solar panels. There are few obvious synergies.

Perhaps even more puzzling are the motives of Elon Musk, a polarizing billionaire who is the chairman and largest shareholder of both companies.

The overlap created a glaring conflict of interest that's fueling concerns about whether Musk is milking Tesla's higher market value and better brand recognition to bail out SolarCity—a company run by his cousin, Lyndon Rive.

The second-guessing probably wouldn't be as widespread if not for the murky logic underlying the deal and Musk's history of drawing upon Tesla and another of his companies, rocket ship maker Space X, to bolster SolarCity.

Musk, 44, insists he is just showing good business sense, describing Tesla's bid of up to $2.5 billion as a "no brainer" shortly after it was announced earlier this week.

Investors, though, aren't so sure. SolarCity's shares have edged up by just 5 percent to $22.20 since the all-stock bid was made, well below the $23.56 to $25.30 currently being offered by Tesla. Meanwhile, Tesla's stock has sank by 12 percent to $193.15.

The offer "raises a number of questions around governance that may test the bond of trust," Morgan Stanley analyst Adam Jonas wrote in a research note. One of Tesla's most ardent supporters, Jonas downgraded Tesla and lowered his target price on the shares by 26 percent to $245.

S&P Global Market Intelligence analyst Efraim Levy believes investor resistance eventually may prompt Tesla to withdraw its bid.

The backlash still may not be enough to deter the outspoken Musk, who has cultivated the image of a maverick since he made his initial fortune as co-founder of online payment service, PayPal, which eBay bought for $1.5 billion in 2002.

Musk is hailed as a visionary by admirers who applaud him for shaking up the auto industry with Tesla's sleek, electric vehicles and drawing up plans to send people to Mars on Space X's rockets. His detractors ridicule him as an unpredictable control freak, an image that Tesla's bid for SolarCity may reinforce.

So far, no one has paid a bigger price for Tesla's baffling bid than Musk. The value of his combined holdings in the two companies fell by nearly $1 billion in three days to pare his fortune to $11.4 billion, based on Forbes' latest estimates. Musk owns a 26 percent stake in Tesla and a 22.5 percent stake in SolarCity.

The bid has focused more attention on the shaky financial position of both companies as they rapidly burn through cash. Tesla has lost $1.2 billion in the past two years alone while SolarCity has suffered losses exceeding $1.1 billion during the same span. Analysts surveyed by FactSet are predicted Tesla will post a $416 million loss this year while SolarCity will lose $851 million.

And now both companies may have trouble raising additional money from wary investors, if they need it.

The SolarCity bid isn't the first time that Musk has interwoven his companies' interests.

Musk has secured $486 million in personal loans to buy either stock or bonds issued by Tesla and SolarCity, according to recent filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Musk secured the loans with 9.4 million shares of Tesla stock currently worth $1.85 billion and 4 million shares of SolarCity stock worth nearly $9 million.

If Tesla's stock craters, Musk could be forced to put up more shares as collateral or sell some to repay the lenders, according to the company. If that were to happen, Tesla's stock would fall even further at the expense of Musk having helped support SolarCity.

In addition, Space X has bought $255 million of SolarCity's bonds since the end of 2014, including $90 million of a $105 million offering in March, according to SEC documents.

Tesla had hoped to quickly resolve the conflict-of-interest questions triggered by the SolarCity offer. The Palo Alto, California, company pledged to leave the fate of the deal up to a majority vote of "disinterested" shareholders at both Tesla and SolarCity, meaning Musk wouldn't have a say.

Musk's argument for combining Tesla and SolarCity primarily revolves around a battery system that stores solar energy in homes and businesses trying to minimize their dependence on the power grids run by utilities.

Tesla introduced the battery, called "Powerwall," 14 months ago, providing the first inkling that it planned to be more than just an auto maker. Musk believes both Tesla and SolarCity will be better off if their products are united under one roof and a common brand. SolarCity already is selling the power-storing batteries as part of an agreement that Tesla expects to generate $44 million in revenue this year, according to SEC documents.

If the deal goes through, SolarCity will adopt Tesla's name and sell its solar panels alongside power-storing batteries under Musk's plan. He reasons many of the people who want to drive electric vehicles will have an inherent interest in setting up cleaner energy systems in their homes and offices. Although he said he didn't know for certain, Musk estimated about only about one-fourth of Tesla owners currently have solar energy panels.

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Eikka
3.3 / 5 (7) Jun 26, 2016
Musk is running a huge investment bubble. He's got a bigger reality distortion field than Steve Jobs - at least Steve had to actually sell computers and not just promise to sell them. This guy has made billions on hot air alone.

With the soaring orders for the Model 3, and the promise of the powerwall system, and the as of yet non-existing battery factory, he's stretching his manufacturing capability too thin. He is not able to meet all the promises made.
KBK
3.7 / 5 (6) Jun 27, 2016
Bitches, please...

The battery factory is producing product, even though the full facility is not complete. The factory is so huge, that is the way it has to be done. partial production, phased in, in stages.

The factory is huge and takes time to build-- it is inevitable that the manufacturing methods and technology would also have to be capable of handling near constant change.

So this is how it is done.

One cannot 'freeze' design and build of the batteries to be built therein on the factory inception date, it would be insane to do so.

The Tesla powerwalls are being built there now -- serving as a test device for running live simulations of manufacturing technology and methodology.

All which has to be sussed out as the larger factory system itself comes on line.

Promises.. he's a bit late on them. The vast number of corporations and governments are far far worse in promise delivery.

Musk has a history of delivery - which gives him a 1 to others relative 0.
WillieWard
2.6 / 5 (5) Jun 27, 2016
Are the batteries & solar components mined, transported, manufactured using wind/solar-powered machines? I guess no; fossil fuels again baby.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (18) Jun 27, 2016
None of the materials or people got there using nukes, Willie.

But this article is written obviously by financial folk who have NO IDEA of the technologies. The statement: "There are few obvious synergies" should have removed the writer from this project. The best thing we have done is to install PV panels for power and to get an EV, an obvious duality.

The financial folk are parasites, finagling with the wealth built by others until it all sticks to their greedy fingers.
WillieWard
2 / 5 (4) Jun 27, 2016
None of the materials or people got there using nukes
if it were, so thousands of lives would have been saved. death/TWh: coal 161.00, oil 36.00, solar 0.44 , wind 0.15, hydro 0.10, nuclear 0.04
"nuclear power has saved the lives of many more people than it has killed"
http://www.forbes...-killed/
"nuclear power prevents more deaths than it causes"
http://cen.acs.or...ses.html
gkam
1.5 / 5 (16) Jun 27, 2016
SL-1, Chernobyl, Fukushima.

Three strikes, Willie.
WillieWard
1.8 / 5 (5) Jun 27, 2016
Three strikes
Fukushima and Three Mile Island resulted in zero deaths; renewable kills much more per unit of energy produced than nuclear and has strong dependence on fossil fuels to mine, manufacture, transport and to compensate intermittency and also has alliance with natural gas/fracking industry.
Multiple strikes, gskam.
"Sierra Club Took Millions From the Natural Gas Industry"
http://science.ti...stopped/
"The Sierra Club Took Millions From Fracking Industry"
http://www.counte...ndustry/
"Sierra Club Admits Secretly Taking $26 Million From Chesapeake Natural Gas"
http://thinkprogr...ral-gas/
"Sierra Club admits donations targeting a natural gas competitor"
twm3
3 / 5 (2) Jun 27, 2016
The goals for what E.Musk seeks to reach are worthy indeed,,,

But his means to get there do need his better wisdom,,;

One tell where his wisdom has failed is how he exaggerates negatively about Fuel Cell's which have much greater long term future value as the real potential for mobile electricity than do batteries.

However logical in the short term for meeting Tesla demand that batteries are, pushing for only their short term lesser utility while trying to diminish the better future competition in Fuel Cells is simply foolish narrow vision, that is if you truly do seek a sustainable electric mobile future.

Batteries are like the fossil fuels which will build the future that will be more sustainable, clean and safe without them.
twm3
3 / 5 (2) Jun 27, 2016
If Elon Musk was to follow a wiser path it might be similar to using solar pv cells to begin the future of storing the sun in clean hydrogen for transportation for use in fuel cells.

Hydrogen FCs are logical as the lightest weight largest energy unit per volume for any efficient sustainable mobility with its needs everywhere, all the time, on into the future.
antigoracle
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 27, 2016
Hmm.. who woulda thunk solar would need a bailout.
howhot3
4 / 5 (4) Jun 27, 2016
Electric cars and solar are a match made in heaven. A large portion of mankind's progress in the industrial age has been transportation power by fossil fuel combustion as the heat source, So a natural evolution of autos is the recognition of the fact that combustion is a dirty process with exhaust products that are toxic to us, and damaging to the environment. So migration to electric is obvious and eventual. Suddenly solar electric becomes and obvious choice for an energy source, It's consistent over time, it can be off grid, and it's perfect for charging battery banks. It;s a technology that can be built and be profitable very quickly since your ROC's are very low if not none existent.

I really like Elon Musk's thinking.

twm3
5 / 5 (3) Jun 28, 2016
My prior comment pasted here;
"Batteries are like the fossil fuels which will build the future that will be more sustainable, clean and safe without them."
needs a following with;
Batteries will however remain an important part of the future in many scales where used for their best values while fossil fuels will slowly disappear as their molecules become valued in wider areas of use if not of volume.

gkam
1.3 / 5 (15) Jun 28, 2016
Wind and PV power with battery storage is the holy grail of sustainable clean power.
Lord_jag
4.2 / 5 (5) Jun 29, 2016
Fuel cells have a problem. One that I haven't heard if it's been dealt with yet - the source of hydrogen.

You can get hydrogen from natural gas or from splitting water. Sourcing it from natural gas just makes it a fossil fuel product and sourcing from splitting water requires huge amounts of water and electricity, making it pretty much an elaborate battery.

The fuel cell method of storing power may become more viable than lithium based batteries, but they're still working out the kinks. Lithium batteries are mass producible and work today. Keep working on the fuel cells. I hope to replace a lithium power pack with a fuel cell one day when it works safely and is mass produced.
gkam
1 / 5 (13) Jun 29, 2016
Fuel cells do not store power, they are conversion devices.
Uncle Ira
4.7 / 5 (13) Jun 29, 2016
Fuel cells do not store power, they are conversion devices.


Is that some more of your engineering experience? Good grief glam-Skippy where you at Cher on the engineering/science scale? That is the sort of thing that give away the fact you were never six different kinds of engineer. Choot, that give away the fact you were never even one kind of engineer.

Cher, such foolishment when you are pretending to be a really knowledgeable engineer might work real good for the grey haired new-agey hippie chicks, but you were alerted to the fact it would only get you some ridicule and mocks here where there are "REAL" engineers and "REAL" scientists.
gkam
1 / 5 (14) Jun 29, 2016
Perhaps those who rated me down would like to argue the point of fuel cells being conversion devices?

Even poor Ira, the Boat Boy knows about Proton Power and my rights to the 4kW fuel cells. Of course, he will try to make something silly or nasty of it, like he did with my diploma, my Master of Science Thesis, and my service record - none of which he ever earned.
gkam
1 / 5 (13) Jun 29, 2016
Hey, guys, get over the fact some folk had different lives than you. I did not plan my life, but just reacted to where I was. I lived in interesting times and happened to be in interesting situations.

When I came on the forum, I thought we would discuss events and processes and ways of thinking, but found myself in a pool of nasty snipers. I think they are BS artists, since they assume everybody else is, . . even after proof. They invested so much of themselves into proving I was phony that they came apart when I proved I am real.

So,. . . take your silly shots at me, hiding behind your silly phony names.
Uncle Ira
4.7 / 5 (12) Jun 29, 2016
Perhaps those who rated me down would like to argue the point of fuel cells being conversion devices?


Perhaps you would like to argue the point why you think they are not storage devices? A battery is storage device. It is also a conversion device. A fuel cell sitting on my bench top not connected to anything is storing energy until I plug him in to something and flip the switch. A battery after I flip the switch is conversion device, it is converting chemical potential energy into electrical energy.

Just so you don't try that "steer the conversation away from the stupid thing I said" like you always do, I will remind you.

Fuel cells do not store power,
Is about as dumb as anything you have said, but there is a lot of competition on that.
they are conversion devices.
You should have known being the six different kinds of engineer, that a fuel cell, like a battery is BOTH a storage AND conversion device.
Uncle Ira
4.7 / 5 (12) Jun 29, 2016
As usual, you try to "HIDE" and divert instead of debate the silly thing you said. You said what you said, and it was a thing no engineer would say. It don't matter if I dropped out of the 1st grade or graduated with a degree in Mechanical Engineering. What I said is right, or it is wrong. Same with you, your "claimed experience" don't have nothing to do with what you said, "Fuel cells do not store"" is either right, or it is wrong.

I say it is wrong. Now tell me the engineering practice that makes it right (non not a claim of experience, the 1st principles that it is based on.)
gkam
1 / 5 (13) Jun 29, 2016
" A fuel cell sitting on my bench top not connected to anything is storing energy until I plug him in to something and flip the switch."
-------------------------------
OMG.

No, Ira, it is NOT a storage device. The fuel is stored elsewhere, not in the cell. Apparently you have no real idea how they work. Do you know there are different kinds? They work at different temperatures and with different media. Some of the high-temperature cells are self-reforming. Know what that means?

Know what kind we took to the Moon? The kinds we had in basements in San Francisco and elsewhere? The kinds we tested in San Jose? The kind I owned the rights to? They are all different technologies and materials.

Your kids might drive fuel cell vehicles. You do not want to find out what I did for Toyota and their automotive fuel cells.

Sorry, . . I did not mean to, but they paid very well, . . .
gkam
1 / 5 (13) Jun 29, 2016
I expect Ira to go away, since he has probably looked up the different kinds of cells, from PEM to Solid Oxide, Molten Carbonate, Phosphoric Acid, and the others. No, they will probably not use them on boats for a while, unless they are self-reforming and capable of using liquid fuels.
Uncle Ira
4.7 / 5 (12) Jun 29, 2016
Expect all you want, but I expect that just won't happen. But now we know you are not the engineer, eh? Well we all already knew that. Cher, it is not about you and your "experience". It is about all the silly stuffs you say while pretending to be the engineer.
gkam
1 / 5 (12) Jun 29, 2016
Did you look them up? Want to discuss fuel cells?

Are electric motors storage devices, too? How about LP gas engines?
Uncle Ira
4.6 / 5 (11) Jun 29, 2016
Are electric motors storage devices, too?
The batteries that supply them are.

How about LP gas engines?
The tanks of LPG that supply them are.

Want to discuss fuel cells?
Do they need an electric motor or engine to do something useful? Or do you connect them directly to the drive shaft without a motor or engine to convert the chemical energy into mechanical energy?
gkam
1 / 5 (11) Jun 29, 2016
You alleged fuel cells stored energy. Show me.
Uncle Ira
4.6 / 5 (10) Jun 29, 2016
Show me.


http://energy.gov...eadt.pdf

You seem to be stuck on the notion that because it needs a "source" to operate, that somehow that "source" is not part of the fuel cell. That thinking is why armchair professionals like you should not be making you one line pronouncements to Lord-Jag-Skippy about him not getting it right.

Cher, even a battery requires an external input. Most of the times that is a machine doing to work to charge it. Sometimes it is a solar pane charging it. But no matter how it is done, you got to add energy to it. Just as in fuel cells. Matter of fact, you can take the batteries out of some machines, and drop in the appropriate fuel cell, and the machine will run just dandy.

A fuel cell stores AND converts energy. If you were really the engineer, you would have corrected Lord-Jag-Skippy on his use of "power" when technically it should have been "energy". A "REAL" engineer would have notice THAT.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (11) Jun 29, 2016
I did not plan my life
-just fucked it up badly by lying his way into 12++ jobs and then quickly losing all of them.
but just reacted to where I was. I lived in interesting times and happened to be in interesting situations
-which nobody seems to care about probably because they arent that interesting and because most are made up.
When I came on the forum, I thought we would discuss events and processes
ie georges very excellent life
and ways of thinking, but found myself in a pool of nasty snipers
-who dont like liars and have to say so.
I proved I am real
-And we proved that the real george kamburoff os a compulsive liar, fact-fabricator, and pretty obviously a raging psychopath.
Perhaps those who rated me down would like to argue the point of fuel cells being conversion devices?
Why? Youre a confirmed liar. You make up your facts.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Jun 29, 2016
"You seem to be stuck on the notion that because it needs a "source" to operate, that somehow that "source" is not part of the fuel cell."
-----------------------------

Yeah, that's it. Fuel cells are only conversion devices. They must be fed fuel from outside to work, to convert the chemical energy into electrical energy. Just like ICEs convert chemical energy into mechanical energy and LOTS of waste heat.

Where are you gonna go now? Some kind of semantic way to save face?
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Jun 29, 2016
It is the fuel source, separate from FC technology which keeps us from having fuel cells in more applications. We have good FCs, but not good storage and refill systems.
antigoracle
4 / 5 (8) Jun 29, 2016
In the old days, individuals who bounced around different areas of expertise were known as people who couldn't hold a job. Now we call them Seasoned Generalists.

http://www.kambur...bio.html
Someone put too much seasoning on General(ist) George.
LOL.
Uncle Ira
4.6 / 5 (11) Jun 29, 2016
They must be fed fuel from outside to work, to convert the chemical energy into electrical energy.


Just as batteries do. Just as hydro damns do. What Cher? You think all those ampere-hours just pop into existence out the aether? You got to do work on a battery if is going to be of any use. You got to "get" some water up into the reservoir before you can use it.

Air tanks that drive pneumatic machines have to have work done on them to get them up to pressure.

Tell me this thing Mr Engineer. Name one energy storage device that does not require work being done to make it useful? Any one will do. All you are quibbling about is based on some silly notice of "when" the work is done while using the output, and that is not provided for in any 1st Principles I have ever heard of. There is a 1st Principle that any system, even an energy storage system, MUST have work done to it, to put energy in it in order to take energy out.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Jun 29, 2016
Give it up, Ira. You are trying to find semantic ways to confuse others into your own confused state. Fuel cells ONLY convert power. They do not store it.

You will find no more success in trying to save yourself from this one than you did with making fun of the fact I am a Disabled Vet.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Jun 29, 2016
Okay,Ira, here is your wiki:

"A fuel cell is a device that converts the chemical energy from a fuel into electricity through a chemical reaction of positively charged hydrogen ions with oxygen or another oxidizing agent.[1] Fuel cells are different from batteries in that they require a continuous source of fuel and oxygen or air to sustain the chemical reaction, whereas in a battery the chemicals present in the battery react with each other to generate an electromotive force (emf). Fuel cells can produce electricity continuously for as long as these inputs are supplied."
Uncle Ira
4.6 / 5 (11) Jun 29, 2016
@ glam-Skippy. What you are describing is exactly what goes on in a battery. Instead of hydrogen/oxygen (which is only one type of fuel cell) you still have the "fuel" in batteries in the form of electrolytes. When the electrolytes are depleted, it quits working. In the fuel cell when the hydrogen/oxygen electrolytes are depleted, it quits working. Until you "recharge" them.

You can use electricity to re-separate the chemicals in a battery, and you can also use electricity to re-separate the hydrogen/oxygen. That is how the fuel cells work. You don't drive up to a tank for a fill up, you reverse the process to charge them back up.

You recharge them like you any other storage device. Most often using electricity, to re-separate the electrolytes.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Jun 29, 2016
You are babbling to obfuscate the fact you were wrong.

Fuel cells are power conversion devices, not energy storage devices.
Estevan57
4.6 / 5 (11) Jun 29, 2016
It greatly amuses me that the slightest bit of a technical description is called "babble" and Gracie has to try to prove his point with the evil Wiki.

George, you are now an official "wiki warrior". Enjoy

To use the disabled Vet card is a real low point, gkam. If you are to call people names, be prepared for the response, Vet or not.

Just to be on topic, I think that Elon Musk runs a real risk of overextending his borrowing and needs to be careful in how he expands his manufacturing facilities.

His businesses are not too big to fail, and he wouldn't be the first to do so.
Uncle Ira
4.6 / 5 (10) Jun 29, 2016
You are babbling to obfuscate the fact you were wrong.
Well why you don't babble back at me and tell me how I am wrong?

Fuel cells are power conversion devices, not energy storage devices.
Well you are wrong, double wrong for an engineer. They do not convert "power". They convert (stored potential )energy into electric energy or heat energy And just like a conventional battery, you recharge them by reversing the process. And by your reasoning a battery is a "power conversion devices, not energy storage devices".

A "REAL" engineer knows that most of the times when you are looking at a mechanical system, it does more than one thing. Fuel cell and batteries both store energy AND convert energy.

glam-Skippy, you are not the engineer. This is just too many of the really basic stuffs you are getting wrong. You were told this is not a good place for pretending, and now you are the object lesson that will be used to point it out to the next one.
gkam
1 / 5 (11) Jun 29, 2016
It's no card, it is a fact, and I resent any of you stay-at-home "patriots" denigrating it.

When you go to your war, come back and we will talk. I still see my service at night. You only see yourself.

And, no, Ira, you do not "recharge" fuel cells, because they do not store power.

They are conversion devices only and you are STILL losing no matter how you try to fake it.
gkam
1 / 5 (11) Jun 29, 2016

Ira, your wiki readings can't outdo real competence and experience. For one, you apparently do not understand the workings of conversion devices. I guess you need the technical courses I had on them, qualifying and quantifying the characteristics of the technologies.
Uncle Ira
4.7 / 5 (12) Jun 29, 2016
Ira, your wiki readings can't outdo real competence and experience.For one, you apparently do not understand the workings of conversion devices


Cher, I know more engineering and mechanics then you have not learned in your whole 70 years, And I learned mine before I was half your age. The test of what you know is in whether you can discuss the topic without the "I have experience and you don't". The ideas, concepts and principles are the "proof" of experience and competence, not the "I did" or "I was" or "I have". Because it don't matter if "you did" or "you were" or "you have" if you don't understand basics and 1st principles. If you can not keep the elementary stuffs straight, the boasts are nothing but objects to be ridiculed.

Uncle Ira
4.3 / 5 (12) Jun 29, 2016
I guess you need the technical courses I had on them, qualifying and quantifying the characteristics of the technologies
If it's all the same to you I will pass on those, they don't seem to have done you much good. Non, the ones I had are fine Cher.

Cher, you should go to a place that is not peopled with engineers. Where slogans and boasts are all that is required to pull it off. You are nothing here but a troll who only comes here to boast, pretend and to flame with others. You have no substance, just slogans and boasts, that's it. You are not even very good at the thing you do the most of here, snide remarks and insults. That's why you can't "make me mad" or "make me afraid" or "hurt my feelings" or "make me jealous". All you got is silly little things that DO bother YOU so you just assume they must bother other peoples

It ain't rocket surgery Cher. You are really really bad at what you came here to do.
Uncle Ira
4.6 / 5 (11) Jun 29, 2016
@ glam-Skippy. Did not want to run out without wishing goodnight. I got some things that must be attended to so I got to cut this short for today. Maybe we will pick him up tomorrow, eh? So you get to have the parting shots Cher. You are welcome.
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (11) Jun 30, 2016
ROTFLMFAO
Ira, your wiki readings
@liar-kam couyon
but you posted the wiki quote!
all that denigration of everyone else for referencing wiki?
you couldn't even figure out, with all your engineering prowess, how to put the link in or quote like above?

LOL

Ira posted the http://energy.gov link, you idiot
not a wiki link!

so does that mean you're the idiot and Ira is an experienced engineer?
I am a Disabled Vet
calling BULLSH*T on this one

you may be [mentally] disabled AND a vet, but you aren't some combat veteran as you intimate with this crap
I resent any of you stay-at-home "patriots" denigrating it
When you go to your war, come back and we will talk
some veterans actually have real experience, not flight line loafing, playing with radio's and making up stories about navy subs

when you claim the above, you denigrate all real soldiers and real combat veterans who need help

do you have a DD-2AF?
are you in DEERS?
no?
didn't think so, ya liar
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
Rumpy, I must have gotten to your little ego again.
Show us YOUR DD-214, Mister "Patriot".

I am real,and you are not. Like otto and Ira, you HIDE behind a phony name too SCARED to take responsibility for your own words. In other words, a cowardly sniper. Yeah, scared and cowardly.

Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
Show us YOUR DD-214
you've already seen it, moron... e-mailed it to ya

just because you're too inept to utilise e-mail, the internet and a computer despite your claims of advanced education doesn't mean i am the one who isn't real

also note: i didn't ask for your 214... i asked for your DD-2AF
you don't even know what that is, do you?
do you know what DEERS is?

this is important because they're well known among the real disabled veterans who actually have service related VA claims

not fake wanna-be stories made up about how you once saw a [insert claim] on the flight line and it was so horrible you cried for the next 70 years

....

this is another indicator that you're a blatant liar, BTW
I am real,and you are not
yeah, a real liar, a real coward, and a real blatant stolen valor fraud too

feel free to get the last word in...

oh, and WHERE IS MY SUMMONS?
LMFAO
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
"you've already seen it, moron... e-mailed it to ya"
------------------------------

Nope. You are too scared to really do it.

Do it now. Send your performance reports too. We can compare.
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
Grumpy can't make fun of my service or question it, because he saw not just DD-214, but my performance reviews themselves. He knows we earned two OSU citations "with combat "V" device" while I was in the unit. Those 22 folk we lost didn't count.

Ask him what the performance reviews said.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
Grumpy can't make fun of my service or question it, because he saw not just DD-214, but my performance reviews themselves. He knows we earned two OSU citations "with combat "V" device" while I was in the unit. Those 22 folk we lost didn't count.

Ask him what the performance reviews said.
What does george kamburoff's sick compulsion to talk about himself have to do with fuel cells?

He lies about his education and experience so its reasonable to assume his facts about fuel cells are bullshit as well.
Ask him what the performance reviews said
Did they say you knew anything about fuel cells georgie?
Captain Stumpy
4 / 5 (8) Jun 30, 2016
Nope
so, the copy i have of the e-mail to you in my outbox is fake?
maybe your lawyers can sort it out when you take me to court like you threatened
can't make fun of my service or question it
actually, yes, i can

mostly because i know far, far more about the military than you ever will
He knows we earned two OSU citations "with combat "V" device"
no, i don't
in order to make that claim you would have to demonstrate that it's on your DD-214
all medals, training, certification and education are listed on your 214

guess what: it's NOT THERE and i can prove that one!

http://s1027.phot...&o=1

so this demonstrates you are blatantly lying about service, your "citations "with combat "V" device" and service

also note: this is evidence for your litigation against me in my favour, you know
feel free to offer validation of your claim
I will forward anything you send to PB
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
guess what: it's NOT THERE and i can prove that one!

http://s1027.phot...&o=1
Holy shit. What a GUTLESS lying little motherfucker.
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
Rumpy and otto can just look up the 553 Reconnaissance Wing and find out. Look up "citations of", and see for yourself.

Go here:
http://www.afhra....id=10615

Now, you can apologize. Our unit was shed of the electronics troops and reverted back to only a Special Operations Group, from which we sprung. I am an original BatCat.

I want an apology, Grumpy. A real one.

Then, you can show us what you allegedly did, and why you are hiding from it.

Did you serve? Is that why you are hiding?
gkam
1 / 5 (11) Jun 30, 2016
Okay, here is the quotation:

Campaign Streamers. World War II: Leyte; Luzon; Western Pacific; Air Offensive, Japan; China Defensive; China Offensive. Vietnam: Vietnam Air Offensive, Phase II; Vietnam Air Offensive, Phase III; Vietnam Air/Ground; Vietnam Air Offensive, Phase IV; TET 69/Counteroffensive; Vietnam Summer-Fall, 1969; Vietnam Winter-Spring, 1970; Sanctuary Counteroffensive; Southwest Monsoon; Commando Hunt V.

Decorations. Air Force Outstanding Unit Awards with Combat "V" Device: 1 Apr 1967-31 May 1968; 1 Jul 1968-15 Apr 1969; 2 Sep 2004-1 Sep 2006; 1 Oct 2006-30 Sep 2008. Air Force Outstanding Unit Awards: 6 Apr 1989-5 Apr 1991; 1 Jun 1993-31 May 1995; 1 Sep 1995-31 Aug 1997; 16 Oct 1998-31 May 2000; 13 Oct 2000-1 Sep 2002; 2 Sep 2002-1 Sep 2004. Philippine Presidential Unit Citation (WWII). Philippine Republic Presidential Unit Citation: 31 Jan-31 Jul 2002. Republic of Vietnam Gallantry Cross with Palm: 1 Apr 1967-15 Dec 19

Now, the apology, please.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
guess what: it's NOT THERE and i can prove that one!

http://s1027.phot...%26o%3D1/


"At the same time, psychopaths are good imposters. They have absolutely no hesitation about forging and brazenly using impressive credentials to adopt professional roles that bring prestige and power. They pick professions in which the requisite skills are easy to fake, the jargon is easy to learn, and the credentials are unlikely to be thoroughly checked."

-Holy shit. What a GUTLESS lying little motherfucker you are.

I know - more posts! More posts!

Maybe we'll all drown in bullshit
Uncle Ira
4.6 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
guess what: it's NOT THERE and i can prove that one!

http://s1027.phot...&o=1


@ Captain-Skippy. Can you help me understand something about those number 214 papers? Google-Skippy is not a lot of help on this one.

What does the Spin Code "SDN 715" mean? The government places on the interweb says they are sorta secret but not really because they are just bad opinions. Oh yeah, beside that it says "Convenience Of The Government". What that means?

gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
http://www.afhra....id=10615

Read the fact sheet, "hide-at-home" otto. Then go to the website and see my picture.

Then, show us what YOU did.
Uncle Ira
4.6 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
Rumpy and otto can just look up the 553 Reconnaissance Wing and find out.
Can Ira-Skippy look him up too? Just kidding, already did it.

They did a whole lot of heavy warrioring. You can tell because on their interweb page they tell all kinds of stuffs like this
TSgt. John Linaburg, 553rd EMS, was the first and only member of the 553rd Reconnaissance Wing to be awarded the Purple Heart for combat wounds.
And he had to go over to Vietnam from Thailand to get into that fight.

gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
Ignorance. Ira pretends to know more than we do, and attacks us on the basis of his ignorance.

Perhaps it is a reference to my Cryptographic Access. Our equipment was so classified, the crypto techs could not see it, so we repaired our own crypto equipment.
gkam
1 / 5 (11) Jun 30, 2016
"And he had to go over to Vietnam from Thailand to get into that fight."
------------------------------

You fucking jerk, we were unarmed recon! We lost 22 of us "noncombatants"!

Maybe I will come down there, Toots, not to fight, but to tell my service buddies there who and what you are. Social peer pressure will do it usually for Big Mouth vandals.

Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (9) Jun 30, 2016
What does the Spin Code "SDN 715" mean?
@Ira
the SPN is no longer used but it was an ADMIN code and usually denoted problem folk that otherwise served without incident (like liars, idiots, etc)

SDN 715 was "early release program"
it's public record
http://boards.law...2058.doc

see also:
http://www.tulane...odes.pdf

http://www.tulane...odes.pdf

.

553 Reconnaissance Wing and find out. Look up "citations of"
@Stolen valor liar-kam
so?
that doesn't mean *you* specifically got the valor citation
all awards, training and education are listed in the DD214 - your 214 has no listing of any V citation as you claim to have

you can have us all looking up all the MAC, SAC, TAC wings in the USAF for all the good it will do, because none of that proves that you were awarded any of the medals
period
gkam
1 / 5 (11) Jun 30, 2016
Nope,wasn't in MAC, TAC or SAC. Get those from the movies? I was in Systems Command and PACAF. Look them up. If you had served we would know about it, unless you got a BCD or something.

Is that it? Or was it a "medical"? If is was, you will be pilloried by your draft-dodging cowardly buddies.

Show it, unless you are SCARED.
Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (9) Jun 30, 2016
Perhaps it is a reference to my Cryptographic Access. Our equipment was so classified, the crypto techs could not see it, so we repaired our own crypto equipment
more stolen valor?
you should know what the SPN code is, gkam

or didn't they cover that in your release contract?
You fucking jerk, we were unarmed recon! We lost 22 of us "noncombatants"!
you lost no one
you played with radio's on a flightline
if you were a firefighter/medic/sp i would give you this - but you played with radio's, not lives, idiot
Maybe I will come down there, Toots,
feel free to come visit me, "toots"
you got my address, a map to my house and you're welcome to try to get mouthy here!

i got nothing but time and i would love to see you in person!
:-)

Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
I was in Systems Command and PACAF
syscom means REMF, idiot
and PACAF only denotes pacific Air Forces, f*cking moron
Get those from the movies?
it was the terminology used in *your day*, which makes me wonder a lot
LMFAO
don't believe me?
https://en.wikipe..._Command

https://en.wikipe..._Command

https://en.wikipe..._Command

Look them up. If you had served we would know about it, unless you got a BCD or something.
Uncle Ira
4.6 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
Ira pretends to know more than we do,
I did not pretend to know. I asked what it means because I don't know and Google-Skippy was non help.

Perhaps it is a reference to my Cryptographic Access.


Perhaps the reason I did not ask you is because so far you try to make things seem more than they are.

You fucking jerk, we were unarmed recon! We lost 22 of us "noncombatants"


I am sorry about that. You said to look at interweb place and I did,,,

TSgt. John Linaburg, 553rd EMS, was the first and only member of the 553rd Reconnaissance Wing to be awarded the Purple Heart for combat wounds.


So was the others super secret spooky stuffs that we can't look up?

Toots, not to fight, but to tell my service buddies there who and what you are.
Well it would be goofy thing to come here for. You should work on the way you talk to peoples first though, or you liable to find a fight, some of these Cajun couyons are not so nice like me, eh?
Estevan57
4.6 / 5 (9) Jun 30, 2016
Really now, gkam, it's 4 years of YOUR life 50 years ago. No-one gives a shit.

It gives you no special privileges here, since you have been a dumbass so early, thoroughly and often.

You are more a worrier than a warrior.
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
"You are more a worrier than a warrior."
-------------------------

You stay-at-home "patriots" do not get it. I said I was not a warrior. I intentionally did not put myself in a position to have to kill somebody. I saw what happened to my friends and others from their dads who served in combat, and promised myself I would never fall for that "All you can be" nonsense.

I guess I should expect that kind of ignorance from somebody who gets his "information" from movies with draft-dodger "John Wayne" (Marion Morrison was his real name) in them.

Oh, and that nickname, "Duke"? They got that from Marion Morrison's dog.

Really!

Outgrow your hate. Be a real person.
Estevan57
4.6 / 5 (9) Jun 30, 2016
1. You do not know whether I have military experience or not, I have been very careful in what I give out on the 'Net.

2. In general, person can not join the armed forces and still be patriotic.

3. The "Be all you can be" slogan came out decades after you came back "in a delirium".

4. Why would anyone listen to an actor for advice? Must be your usual red herring.

5. Since I respond to your delirious comments, that probably makes me real.

6. Why do you say I hate? I call 'em like I see 'em. You're just an old lonely turd looking for some action the only way you can.

gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
"You're just an old lonely turd"
------------------------------

Oh, no! Not that!

Not nasty names, . . PLEASE!
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
"The "Be all you can be" slogan came out decades after you came back "in a delirium"."
----------------------------

But not the attitude. I don't remember what the slogan was in 1957 when this took place.

What made you so nasty?
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
"In general, person can not join the armed forces and still be patriotic. ."
----------------------------------------

You decided that, did you?

Well, I still am patriotic. Maybe I didn't follow your orders.

Did you serve?
Estevan57
4.6 / 5 (11) Jun 30, 2016
It's a pretty easy observation, gkam. Can a person be patriotic and not join the armed forces?
Of course they can. You not reads so good.

It doesn't matter whether I served or not. You served, and you're a dumbass.
Not because of your service. You just are.

If you keep asking for personal information from me, I am going to start e-mailing Phys.org.

Names and some profanity they can handle, but asking for personal info might be another deal altogether...
gkam
1 / 5 (11) Jun 30, 2016
"Of course they can. You not reads so good."
------------------------

You not writes so good. I copied and pasted the exact phrase from your post.

And I can understand your reasons for not taking responsibility for your offensive posts. I don't care myself who you anonymous posters and snipers are, but it might be better if you were outed. Most of you anonymous snipers do not have he guts to stand up for what you say.

It would be so much better to get you abusive trolls off the forum.
Uncle Ira
4.7 / 5 (12) Jun 30, 2016
It would be so much better to get you abusive trolls off the forum.
Be careful what you wish for Cher. It's a pretty good bet that physorg considers you just another troll like Bennie-Skippy, and Really-Skippy, and willie-Skippy and antigalore-Skippy and vito-Skippy and Obama's-Socks-Skippy and bachoot-Skippy and, and well you get the picture.

That's your tribe Cher. You are not the slightest bit different than they are.

Oh yeah, I almost forget. While you are being careful what you wish for, keep in mind all those really weird and goofy notes you sent in to the physorg. Threaten sue, then volunteer to clean the place up if they give you the hammer, then more threats about liablities, then begging for relief, some more threats about libels, more begging to work for free to clean the place up. With all the "REAL" stuffs and wanting everybody's name before they can sign up.

The office staffs mock you as much as everybody else does. So be careful what you wish for.
Estevan57
4.6 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
Gkam - Why do you keep coming back to a place that gives you so much grief?

Does it make it just like home?

I truly am considering sending a polite message to your wife asking her to check out your interactions on this comments section. Maybe she could talk you you into another hobby.
She has many really good recipes on her Pinterest. Maybe you could learn to cook.

Shall it be snail-mail, phone call, or something else? You decide.
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
This thread regards solar panels and storage. Have you any? No?

Are you just another internet sniper hiding behind a phony name?

Yes?
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
Estevan, you are confirming our opinion regarding your lack of character.

Are you going to start calling me names again?
Estevan57
4.6 / 5 (9) Jun 30, 2016
Actually, most dumbass of them all, I do.

I have have solar panels for about 20 years now, including the upgrades 5 years ago. I also have had a wind generator for about 9 years. It also gets regular software and hardware upgrades for free. (Test bed for a company I did business with a long time ago).

Also, passive solar water heating.

If you were able to use the Google you have found this out. I have talked about them a couple years ago on this site.

I am serious about contacting your wife.

Is gkam your real name? Of course not.

Even a hungarian wouldn't name somebody gkam. You must be an internet sniper.
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jun 30, 2016
Congrats on the systems. Put them to work for you with an EV. In a few months they will be available with 200+ miles range.

I suggest you stay away from my family.
Estevan57
4.5 / 5 (8) Jun 30, 2016
Then quit asking me for information that would lead to mine. See how this works?
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Jul 01, 2016
Yeah, you assume we all have your character and are dangerous.

Anonymity hides weakness, doesn't it?
Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (9) Jul 01, 2016
promised myself I would never fall for that "All you can be" nonsense
@stolen valor liar-kam
1- that's the army, you idiot, not the USAF
and it was not from your era, but the 1980's/90's (Earl Carter-Jake Holmes)

2- google f*cking works, you know; it's not rocket surgery
even your inept idiot self should have learned that one by now, along with quoting, links & references on PO
This thread regards solar panels and storage
so then why are you not on topic yourself?
why are you keeping the conversation about you and your epic lies - especially about your "military grandeur" that never happened?

Yeah, you assume we all have your character and are F*cking stupid or inept
I suggest you stay away from my family
your kind is not welcome out here in these woods - there are only 7 families out here, and 6 are veterans, the 7th has a kid in the Marines

just sayin'
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (12) Jul 01, 2016
Congrats on the systems. Put them to work for you with an EV. In a few months they will be available with 200+ miles range
Except that, according to evidence, you dont own an EV. More lies from a genuine scumbag psychopath.
I suggest you stay away from my family
George kamburoff cares so little for his family that he willingly posts access to their names and addresses on the internet.

"Imagine - if you can - not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern for the well-being of strangers, friends, or even FAMILY MEMBERS. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken.

"And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools"

-I suggest you stay away from your family you scumbag.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (11) Jul 01, 2016
"Psychopaths are not "fragile" individuals, as Robert Hare says after years of research. What they think and do is produced from a "rock solid personality structure that is extremely resistant to outside influences." Many of them are protected for years from the consequences of their behavior by well-meaning FAMILY and friends. As long as their behavior remains unchecked or unpunished, they continue to go through life without too much inconvenience."

-Meaning that they are enablers. Youve probably bullied them into believing they cant exist without you.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Jul 01, 2016
"your kind is not welcome out here in these woods "
--------------------------

Already been there, seeing the third-world conditions, the folk with poor educations, the piles of old abandoned refrigerators and cars and bathtubs and dishwashers surrounding the houses, charming up them piney woods.

Yeah, everybody in my family served, too, from my grandfather on down except for my brother who supposedly had a knee problem. You never told us where you allegedly served and why you are hiding. But I am more concerned about your need to "get even. It is crippling you, driving you crazy, . .
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (11) Jul 01, 2016
the folk with poor educations
Ah so you had something in common. Except I assume that, as a lying cheating psychopath, you took the opportunity to lie about your education and make up all sorts of nonsense and bullshit, confident in the knowledge that they wouldnt know the difference.

I wonder why that didnt work here?
Captain Stumpy
4.5 / 5 (8) Jul 04, 2016
charming up them piney woods
STOLEN VALOR liar-kam
1- yes, it is

2- there aint no "fridges, cars" etc in my yard or in the yards of folk out here, and you know it
you checked it when i linked it to you

and unlike you, there is also no grid up here
everybody in my family served, too
so? my cousin thinks he is a Toyota; does that make me one?
no

legal info time-

under the UCMJ ("Title 10 U.S.C., Chapter 45, The Uniform, Department of Defense Instruction
(DoDI) 1334.1, Wearing of the Uniform, and Air Force Policy Directive (AFPD) 36-29, Military Standards"), you are required to have your awards, citations, cert's and information in your 201 file (which you didn't even know existed) before you can wear them on your uniform

if you've separated, you must have them on the DD214 to wear them in uniform. see also AFI 36-2903. AFI 36-2803

it's the law

you should read your contract - oh wait, you threw it out

gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Jul 04, 2016
Oh, give it up. Your need to hurt others is disgusting.

Outgrow it.

BTW, I really do hope you check me out, lodge complaints even, and we will see who is the troubled person, out-of-control.

Did you checkout the classified unit to which I did not belong? Why do you think they included my name on their site? Notice how they do not tell you what they really did?

When you find out, your head will explode.

And you do not get it. I have no uniform. I wear no medals. Everything is gone from those days. You can strut around today, chest out, but not me.
Uncle Ira
4.6 / 5 (9) Jul 04, 2016
And you do not get it. I have no uniform. I wear no medals. Everything is gone from those days.
Except your props to help give your boasts some razzle some dazzle and some pizzazz.

You can strut around today, chest out, but not me.
That's why we like you so much Cher. You never strut around with your chest out like everybody else does. Choot, if is was not for all those really in the depth explanations of the science stuffs we would not even have any idea of what a "REAL" experienced person you are. (Unlike all the goobers that only fling out one line slogans that would make a good bumper sticker or a tweeter twit but don't really say much about anything other than their politics.)
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Jul 04, 2016
The Tesla/Solar City integration makes it easier to sell the entire package, which will be the next product, perhaps. The synergy is obvious, and now affordable, and has a lot of competition, so we will get good prices soon.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Jul 04, 2016
I predict in a few years those who mock others here will have more up-to-date and more benign power sources or power system components. Even PV and EVs.
howhot3
3 / 5 (2) Jul 26, 2016
@gkam says;
The Tesla/Solar City integration makes it easier to sell the entire package, which will be the next product, perhaps. The synergy is obvious, and now affordable, and has a lot of competition, so we will get good prices soon.

Your absolutely right-on old @gkam. The synergy between electric vehicles and solar power is the market of the next generation. The CO2 production of current transportation systems across the globe has surpassed fossil fuel electric production like the coal powered electric generation plants. So yeah, getting solar powered transport is very important. Good point.

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