Hubble finds clues to the birth of supermassive black holes

May 24, 2016, ESA/Hubble Information Centre
This artist's impression shows a possible seed for the formation of a supermassive black hole. Two of these possible seeds were discovered by an Italian team, using three space telescopes: the NASA Chandra X-ray Observatory, the NASA/ESA Hubble Space Telescope, and the NASA Spitzer Space Telescope. Credit: NASA/CXC/M. Weiss

Astrophysicists have taken a major step forward in understanding how supermassive black holes formed. Using data from Hubble and two other space telescopes, Italian researchers have found the best evidence yet for the seeds that ultimately grow into these cosmic giants.

For years astronomers have debated how the earliest generation of supermassive black holes formed very quickly, relatively speaking, after the Big Bang. Now, an Italian team has identified two objects in the early Universe that seem to be the origin of these early supermassive black holes. The two objects represent the most promising black hole seed candidates found so far.

The group used computer models and applied a new analysis method to data from the NASA Chandra X-ray Observatory, the NASA/ESA Hubble Space Telescope, and the NASA Spitzer Space Telescope to find and identify the two objects. Both of these newly discovered black hole seed candidates are seen less than a billion years after the Big Bang and have an initial mass of about 100 000 times the Sun.

"Our discovery, if confirmed, would explain how these monster black holes were born," said Fabio Pacucci, lead author of the study, of Scuola Normale Superiore in Pisa, Italy.

This new result helps to explain why we see supermassive black holes less than one billion years after the Big Bang.

This image shows one of two detected supermassive black hole seeds, OBJ29323, as it is seen by the NASA/ESA Hubble Space Telescope. Credit: NASA/STScI/ESA

There are two main theories to explain the formation of supermassive black holes in the early Universe. One assumes that the seeds grow out of black holes with a mass about ten to a hundred times greater than our Sun, as expected for the collapse of a massive star. The black hole seeds then grew through mergers with other small black holes and by pulling in gas from their surroundings. However, they would have to grow at an unusually high rate to reach the mass of already discovered in the billion years young Universe.

The new findings support another scenario where at least some very seeds with 100 000 times the mass of the Sun formed directly when a massive cloud of gas collapses. In this case the growth of the black holes would be jump started, and would proceed more quickly.

"There is a lot of controversy over which path these black holes take," said co-author Andrea Ferrara also of Scuola Normale Superiore. "Our work suggests we are converging on one answer, where black holes start big and grow at the normal rate, rather than starting small and growing at a very fast rate."

Andrea Grazian, a co-author from the National Institute for Astrophysics in Italy explains: "Black hole seeds are extremely hard to find and confirming their detection is very difficult. However, we think our research has uncovered the two best candidates so far."

Even though both black hole seed candidates match the theoretical predictions, further observations are needed to confirm their true nature. To fully distinguish between the two formation theories, it will also be necessary to find more candidates.

The team plans to conduct follow-up observations in X-rays and in the infrared range to check whether the two objects have more of the properties expected for black hole seeds. Upcoming observatories, like the NASA/ESA/CSA James Webb Space Telescope and the European Extremely Large Telescope will certainly mark a breakthrough in this field, by detecting even smaller and more distant .

The findings will appear in an upcoming issue of the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society.

Explore further: Image: Computer simulation of a supermassive black hole

More information: "First Identification of Direct Collapse Black Hole Candidates in the Early Universe in CANDELS/GOODS-S," Fabio Pacucci et al., 2016, Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society , mnras.oxfordjournals.org/conte … /459/2/1432.abstract , arxiv.org/abs/1603.08522

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cantdrive85
1.5 / 5 (17) May 24, 2016
The group used computer models and applied a new analysis method to data

Can anyone say GIGO? May as well be applying computer models of leprechauns pot o' gold and how big unicorns horns can get in a billion years.
Da Schneib
4.7 / 5 (13) May 24, 2016
Fantastic! This has been an open question in astrophysics for some time. What a creative use of the Hubble! And the ELT and Webb will help settle it. Maybe they can get some time on the VLT. Wonder if ALMA can help? This is hot stuff here. Pay attention, one of the Really Important Questions might just have been answered.
ursiny33
1 / 5 (7) May 24, 2016
Any super massive CCM's in the early universe came from an older universe like ours , from dozens of galaxies from another earlier universe tracking each other into deep space, where each of these galaxies had their CCM converted thru induction forces of the gravity held magnetic orbiting super fields, after it ran out of central core material to break apart , and the mass cooled off, the mass was inducted into neutrons again, releasing the objects and mini galaxies in orbit of the galaxy, multiple point galaxy expansion created our new universe
malapropism
3.9 / 5 (18) May 24, 2016
@cantdrive85
The group used computer models and applied a new analysis method to data

Can anyone say GIGO? May as well be applying computer models of leprechauns pot o' gold and how big unicorns horns can get in a billion years.

I don't understand where your antipathy to science like this comes from? As outlined in the abstract on Arxiv, the researchers formulated a computer model that indicated objects to look for if the model was to be supportable; they then took data from three telescope sources and looked for objects of the nature that the model indicated, and found them.

Given what they are looking for, any more-direct experimental work seems a tad unlikely (the galaxies in question are a long way to travel to in order to take a look close-up) so what's wrong with the methodology used?
Da Schneib
4.4 / 5 (13) May 24, 2016
@cd doesn't like computer models because it is suspicious of all that math stuff it can't follow. I wouldn't waste my time much on it, @mala. Hang around a little while and you'll find out who the knobs are. The ignore button is your friend.
Enthusiastic Fool
4.2 / 5 (10) May 25, 2016
If the early Universe was dense enough to form these massive objects bypassing a stellar phase then I am really impressed. The gravity to overcome fusion, magnetic forces, degeneracy, and collapse without ever forming a star is truly boggling.

Is this a case of like you have a hyper protostar in a cosmic soup and then put some pop III hypernovas on each side and let her rip or is there some other mechanism to get a collapse like this?

If we can say definitively that giants formed bypassing any intermediary stage we'd need a mechanism right?
big_hairy_jimbo
4.7 / 5 (7) May 25, 2016
Ok, just wondering what people might think of this.

If a Star (or giant gas cloud) collapses to form a Blackhole, does an actual singularity form? I THINK (guess) theory suggests so, but I was wondering. As the gravitational gradient increases, shouldn't time SLOW as well? So is there a limit on the collapse? A place where time STOPS, hence the process of collapse is frozen in time, just before a singularity forms. Might this be a solution which gets rid of horrible singularities?

Be kind people, I'm just throwing around an idea in the hope the more educated can answer me.
torbjorn_b_g_larsson
4.4 / 5 (13) May 25, 2016
Good news indeed. Last I heard the star route was embellished with similar early collapses of stars and gas in order to avoid later fantastically-high accretion rates.

@ursiny: It is unlikely to find any remains of earlier eras even in a cyclic universe physics like Steinhardt's.

But that is fringe. The consensus (I read) inflationary cosmology has an era that lacks low energy physics like baryon mediated black holes. The inflation field has few and very massive, short lived inflaton particles that ties into the Hot Big Bang era as inflation stops. The potential energy of the field and the mass energy of the few free inflaton particles are released as low energy particle physics of dark matter and baryons in the HBB.
torbjorn_b_g_larsson
4.1 / 5 (14) May 25, 2016
@EFF; Good point!

It is maybe not as fantastic when we consider that the explanation for early star and so galaxy formation has been found in the simulations and confirming observations cd hates so much. The density variations spanned 3 orders of magnitude in a way unseen today and, I think, neatly explains the galaxy density when they form. So star clusters, and now supermassive black holes, had a good chance to form straight out of the gate (of HBB).

@BHJ: Black hole physics is an open area. It seems the consensus is that nature does not have, errr, 'unphysical' singularities. (That is one reason string physics is popular, it avoids some singularities that particle physics do not.)

How that happens is anyone's guess, I think. Core Theory (gravity et cetera as low energy quantum particle fields; http://www.prepos...-shirts/ ) doesn't cover it, the approximations that implies nearing a singularity breaks down too.
antialias_physorg
4.4 / 5 (14) May 25, 2016
If the early Universe was dense enough to form these massive objects bypassing a stellar phase then I am really impressed.

Well, if you consider that we're talking about a universe (at the time) that is less than 2 billion light years in diameter containing ALL the mass we observe (and on top of that all the mass that has since been converted to energy via fusion...and on top of that, possibly, all the dark matter)...then I could well believe that some local densities might be pretty amazingly high.
Fusion could set in for a short period of time, but if the gas is dense enough then even the radiation pressure might not be enough to prevent additional gas impacting the new star and turning it into a black hole in short order.
(Or you might get very many stars forming very small distances from each other that almost immediately bump into one another to exceed the required mass limit)
cantdrive85
2.1 / 5 (11) May 25, 2016
I don't understand where your antipathy to science like this comes from?

You are under the false impression that the above is science, it's not.
cantdrive85
2.1 / 5 (11) May 25, 2016
@cd doesn't like computer models because it is suspicious of all that math stuff it can't follow.

Computer models are only as good as the science that is input in them. In this case all that has been inputted is pseudoscience, hence GIGO.
Otto_Szucks
1.7 / 5 (11) May 25, 2016
@cd doesn't like computer models because it is suspicious of all that math stuff it can't follow.

Computer models are only as good as the science that is input in them. In this case all that has been inputted is pseudoscience, hence GIGO.
- CD

But CD, that is all they HAVE. If you take that away from them, it would be like if you are a guest at a Marriott Hotel and you steal the cleaning woman's vacuum cleaner, mop & pail, and scrub brushes. You would leave her with nothing. It's the same with the expectation for scientists to forego the fairy dust and input hard, solid, absolute observable data into their super comps in the hope that GIGO would be a thing of the past. If you do that to scientists, they will take their ball and bat and go home. It is politically incorrect to expect "good science" from veteran GIGO practitioners. They LOVE their garbage. It makes them feel special and smart no matter how wrong it is.

TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (14) May 25, 2016
But CD, that is all they HAVE. If you take that away from them, it would be like if you are a guest at a Marriott Hotel and you steal the cleaning woman's vacuum cleaner, mop & pail, and scrub brushes. You would leave her with nothing. It's the same with the expectation for scientists to forego the fairy dust and input hard, solid, absolute observable data into their super comps in the hope that GIGO would be a thing of the past. If you do that to scientists, they will take their ball and bat and go home. It is politically incorrect to expect "good science" from veteran GIGO practitioners. They LOVE their garbage. It makes them feel special and smart no matter how wrong it is
Perhaps you should attempt said models on your own supercomputer that you mentioned recently in another thread.

You know the one you skillfully constructed from cardboard and coat hangers?
RealityCheck
1.8 / 5 (15) May 25, 2016
Hi Ghost. :)

Do you realize that you just confirmed what he said about you using your own initial unwarranted sarcastic 'attributions' to him as the basis for further sarcastic attributions/claims by you which have no basis in fact except they were made by YOU in the first place?

Mate, if you are going to stalk and troll someone, at least don't make it that easy to PROVE that you are a stalker and troll of persons based on your own sarcasms/delusions.

Please try to resist future temptation to ego-tripping which leads you to post such unscientific/unfair trolls and attributions. It will help not only the forum a a whole (by making discussion less 'personal' and more polite and fair and on-science), but will also help YOU to get over whatever 'problems and fixations' that drive you to post such unhelpful material and behave in so personally malicious ways. Try. Good luck, mate. :)
NIPSZX
2.3 / 5 (3) May 25, 2016
What if the collapse of matter when compressed starts spinning very rapidly into a powerful tornado like vortex and gains momentum and gets larger and spins faster?
Otto_Szucks
1.7 / 5 (11) May 26, 2016
Hi Ghost. :)

Do you realize that you just confirmed what he said about you using your own initial unwarranted sarcastic 'attributions' to him as the basis for further sarcastic attributions/claims by you which have no basis in fact except they were made by YOU in the first place?

Mate, if you are going to stalk and troll someone, at least don't make it that easy to PROVE that you are a stalker and troll of persons based on your own sarcasms/delusions.

Please try to resist future temptation to ego-tripping which leads you to post such unscientific/unfair trolls and attributions. It will help not only the forum a a whole (by making discussion less 'personal' and more polite and fair and on-science), but will also help YOU to get over whatever 'problems and fixations' that drive you to post such unhelpful material and behave in so personally malicious ways. Try. Good luck, mate. :)
- RC

Theghostofotto hates humans, religion and philosophy...and science.
Otto_Szucks
1.7 / 5 (11) May 26, 2016
@RC
Theghostofotto1923 is suffering from a mental illness called DISSOCIATIVE IDENTITY DISORDER, where he is driven by his own devils to create as many sock puppet personalities as allowed by as many email accounts. While I have this one plus Obama_socks, Otto claims to have as many sock puppets as 666. I have a list of Otto's sock puppets from as far back as 2010. Otto also suffers from Dunning-Kruger where he believes himself to be always right and everyone else is wrong. That's why even you will get ONES from either Otto or his sock puppets...and maybe even his followers/supporters.
You don't recognize evil and that's too bad...because as with gkam and several others, Otto is after your Soul...whether you believe or not that you have one. Otto uses his sock puppets to gain personal information from his victims, so that, when you give your personal info to Captain Stumpy or Uncle Ira, you have given it to Otto. Because they are ALL Otto. So be careful. Stay anonymous.
antialias_physorg
4.7 / 5 (13) May 26, 2016
and gains momentum

Conservation of angular momentum:
https://en.wikipe...momentum
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.6 / 5 (14) May 26, 2016
Hi Ghost. :)

Do you realize that you just confirmed what he said about you using your own initial unwarranted sarcastic 'attributions' to him as the basis for further sarcastic attributions/claims by you which have no basis in fact except they were made by YOU in the first place?

Mate, if you are going to stalk and troll someone, at least don't make it that easy to PROVE that you are a stalker and troll of persons based on your own sarcasms/delusions.

Please try to blah... Good luck, mate. :)
Hi insipid retard ;)

Your buddy claimed that she was leaving the site for awhile to go work on a supercomputer.

Such posters are fair game.
RealityCheck
1.9 / 5 (14) May 26, 2016
Hi Ghost. :)

Who cares? I don't know his personal/professional situation. I take such comments (from many on all 'sides' here) as they come, and I move onto the actual science topic being discussed, on its merits as presented. You should too. Avoiding personal/sarcastic attacks which make you the aggressor and only invite in-kind attacks from those you stalk/harass like that. This was the point of my observation to you above. Keep to the science being discussed and eschew the personal/egotistical tactics/angles. They only demean the site, science discourse and the aggressors (on whatever 'side' they may be coming from). If you can't take it, then don't dish it out. I look forward to your less personal/hostile and more science-oriented/polite contributions to the science and humanity discourse here and elsewhere, mate (if that sort of aspirations for my fellow PO members is "insipid retard" in your opinion, then so be it; but try to do better anyway, hey?. Good luck. :)
Uncle Ira
3.9 / 5 (18) May 26, 2016
Hi insipid retard ;)


He'll be around shortly to defend his dishonorable diligent objectionable observations. You just wait.

when you give your personal info to Captain Stumpy or Uncle Ira, you have given it to Otto. So be careful. Stay anonymous.
That is really good advice. He should have taken it years ago. Choot, the world would have been a better place if you just stayed anonymous and never got on the interweb the first time.

Here's his name, his telephone number, and if that was not stupid enough he also give his street address. Oh yeah, I almost forget. And the pre-print of the book he is working on about toes and everything that he has been trying so hard to keep secret.

http://earthlingclub.com/

He'll probable let the honorable Skippy like you join the Honorary Earthman's Club. They even have the Earthman's Playhouse.

Editing P.S. See, I told he would be around to dishonor his honor.
Uncle Ira
3.9 / 5 (18) May 26, 2016
Hi insipid retard ;)


He'll be around shortly to defend his dishonorable diligent objectionable observations. You just wait.

when you give your personal info to Captain Stumpy or Uncle Ira, you have given it to Otto. So be careful. Stay anonymous.
That is really good advice. He should have taken it years ago. Choot, the world would have been a better place if you just stayed anonymous and never got on the interweb the first time.

Here's his name, his telephone number, and if that was not stupid enough he also give his street address. Oh yeah, I almost forget. And the pre-print of the book he is working on about toes and everything that he has been trying so hard to keep secret.

http://earthlingclub.com/

He'll probable let the honorable Skippy like you join the Honorary Earthman's Club. They even have the Earthman's Playhouse.

Editing P.S. See, I told you he would be around to dishonor his honor.
Uncle Ira
4.1 / 5 (17) May 26, 2016
That was weird, I try to do the editing thing and it put him up there twice.

Anyhoo, sorry about that everybody. My mistake but I don't know what I did by mistake, just make him.
Otto_Szucks
1.8 / 5 (10) May 26, 2016
@RC
You're a good man and a very intelligent one at that. My wife likes the way you talk. She says you're a "peacemaker" and you will be rewarded for it.
Otto_Szucks
1.4 / 5 (10) May 26, 2016
That was weird, I try to do the editing thing and it put him up there twice.

Anyhoo, sorry about that everybody. My mistake but I don't know what I did by mistake, just make him.
- Ira oink oink
LOL I thought that you and Otto were the same person...and maybe you are Otto's sock puppet. But I was snooping around some very old threads and found that UncleIra and Maggnus are the one person. What do you say, Ira...? It's interesting whenever you suddenly lose your fake Cajun accent.
Otto_Szucks
1.4 / 5 (9) May 26, 2016
Hmmm...let me check that Earthlingclub that came up twice.
Otto_Szucks
2.2 / 5 (10) May 26, 2016
@RC
That's a nice website you've got there. I see you're in Australia and that the address you have displayed is for your headquarters. Wise move. Can't be too careful these days...or else Ira and Otto may show up at your doorstep and you would have to chase them off with an AR-15. LOL
Uncle Ira
3.7 / 5 (15) May 26, 2016
@RC
That's a nice website you've got there. I see you're in Australia and that the address you have displayed is for your headquarters. Wise move.


Well let's see about how wise that couyon is Skippy.

https://www.googl...8!8i1664
Uncle Ira
4 / 5 (21) May 26, 2016
That was weird, I try to do the editing thing and it put him up there twice.

Anyhoo, sorry about that everybody. My mistake but I don't know what I did by mistake, just make him.
- Ira oink oink
LOL I thought that you and Otto were the same person...and maybe you are Otto's sock puppet. But I was snooping around some very old threads and found that UncleIra and Maggnus are the one person. What do you say, Ira...? It's interesting whenever you suddenly lose your fake Cajun accent.


Oh yeah, you caught me. I am Otto-Skippy. And Maggnus-Skippy too. And Captain-Skippy also too.

But you want the BIG SURPRISE? I am also Really-Checking-Skippy AND glam-Skippy too. They are the puppets I use to make Ira-Skippy look like a genius. Pretty ingenuous, eh?
Protoplasmix
4.7 / 5 (15) May 26, 2016
It's interesting whenever you suddenly lose your fake Cajun accent.
o-socks, it would be interesting if you could lose your fake troll accent... it is fake, right?
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) May 27, 2016
Yeah, the fake Cajun stuff is funny. He thinks he has followers and he runs what he calls "The Uncle Ira Show", which consists of making what he thinks are clever comments about others. No science.

As for the Black Holes, the use of the new telescopes is eagerly awaited. In ten years, we should have some stunning and confounding shots.
Otto_Szucks
2.3 / 5 (6) May 28, 2016
Yeah, the fake Cajun stuff is funny. He thinks he has followers and he runs what he calls "The Uncle Ira Show", which consists of making what he thinks are clever comments about others. No science.

As for the Black Holes, the use of the new telescopes is eagerly awaited. In ten years, we should have some stunning and confounding shots.
- gkam

Hi glam skippy how are ya I am fine thanks for asking hooyeei

LOL So George, how'd you like my imitation of a fake Cajun Ira accent? Well, just like Otto who knows no actual science and proves it in every post, Oinkel Ira has a big following of Otto's sock puppets and some deluded poor saps frantically looking for friends on Physorg who need to feel like they belong, wanting a good home with Otto et al.

The James Webb will take the place of the aging Hubble, and have far more science instruments on it for clearer shots. We're all hoping that no glitches occur to mess things up. Amen.
Steve 200mph Cruiz
5 / 5 (8) May 28, 2016
Cantdrive,
Unicorns are from Perissodactyl order, therefore horns are made of keratin like rhinos, unlike deer and elk whose horns are made of bone.
Unicorn horns grow throughout the life time of the animal,and they are never shed, but a billion years? Do you have any grasp of time scale? Why would we need computers to model a pretty straight forward function? Their horns can only get a little longer than half a meter before they die.

Seems to me you just don't understand how computer modeling works. Don't just make stuff up just for the sake of being negative
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (12) May 28, 2016
Who cares? I don't know his personal/professional situation. I take such comments (from many on all 'sides' here) as they come, and I move onto the actual science topic being discussed
I can understand your willingness to ignore and/or defend liars and fact fabricators here as you often do these things yourself. Most obviously do not.

But you should really learn to tolerate those of us who take exception to this sort of behavior as we comprise the majority of the people here.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (11) May 28, 2016
The James Webb will take the place of the aging Hubble, and have far more science instruments on it for clearer shots. We're all hoping that no glitches occur to mess things up. Amen
How would you know? You insisted it was possible to add more equipt to the platform long after the design was set and construction had begun.

You thought NASA should have included microphones on the rovers in order to evesdrop on Martian gossip.

You thought people would actually believe that you were part of the Curiosity team when it landed.

There are very few Martian rovers in trailer parks. Maybe you mistook your neighbors ATV for one?

Bombardier does not make Martian rovers.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) May 28, 2016
Go away, otto. Go pick the wings off flies or whatever you really do during the day. Your nasty personal comments are unwanted here.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (12) May 28, 2016
Hey george

I'm happy that I don't have to pretend to be the better man like george kamburoff does. All we have to do is post the evidence, like I did above, and let it speak for itself.

It's much easier to expose idiots like pussytard (and lying cheating psychopaths like yourself) on a science site where there is more respect for facts in general.

Most people here have learned to recognize bullshit when they smell it.

Doesn't matter how good you've become at pretending you're human. It's obvious you're not very.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (14) May 28, 2016
I'm pretty sure the only reason you're still posting here is because you can't hear all the laughing.
Uncle Ira
4.3 / 5 (17) May 28, 2016
I'm pretty sure the only reason you're still posting here is because you can't hear all the laughing.


https://www.youtu...zLUvuLLU
gkam
1 / 5 (12) May 28, 2016
Oops, you folk must have "forgotten" you are not on your high-school blog anymore.

This is a science site.
epoxy
May 28, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) May 28, 2016
Why would dark matter form a torus and not a point?
Otto_Szucks
2.3 / 5 (6) May 28, 2016
I'm pretty sure the only reason you're still posting here is because you can't hear all the laughing.
- ghostofOttoSkorzeny
The only laughter that's going on is in YOUR HEAD. This is supposedly a Science site and it's obvious that you have an agenda to destroy Physorg as a good Science site, and instead, make it your own personal playground where every piece of shit that comes out of your worm-infested brain helps to drive away honest, genuine Scientists and those who want to learn from them

We are all aware that you don't know any Science and are only in this website for kicks and to find more victims and others who enable you to do and spread your evil Soul-sucking malice toward humans. You can fool some of these humans, but not all of them.
Uncle Ira
4.3 / 5 (16) May 28, 2016


glam-Skippy. I got a couple of questions for you.

Why would dark matter form a torus
Who said anything about a torus, besides you? (Maybe it was one of the boring trolls I got on the ignore?)

And another question too.

and not a point?
Before you guys go to pondering the "what if"'s and "maybe"'s, why you don't read any of the good basic explanations out there on the interweb first.

Maybe you missed Momentum 101 while you was teaching 33,000 engineers all the stuff they never learned in college. And miss also the parts about Thermodynamics 101 and Electromagnetism 101 (which explains why Dark Matters can't collapse into a point all by him self non.)

Now I am not being mean or nasty. And I am not being the Wiki-Warrior, I really have read a couple of books about this stuffs. The philosophical approach you use is your biggest down fall Cher,,,, you can not just imagine or double talk your way into a good science theory, eh?
Otto_Szucks
1.6 / 5 (7) May 28, 2016
That was weird, I try to do the editing thing and it put him up there twice.

Anyhoo, sorry about that everybody. My mistake but I don't know what I did by mistake, just make him.
- Ira oink oink
LOL I thought that you and Otto were the same person...and maybe you are Otto's sock puppet. But I was snooping around some very old threads and found that UncleIra and Maggnus are the one person. What do you say, Ira...? It's interesting whenever you suddenly lose your fake Cajun accent.


Oh yeah, you caught me. I am Otto-Skippy. And Maggnus-Skippy too. And Captain-Skippy also too.

But you want the BIG SURPRISE? I am also Really-Checking-Skippy AND glam-Skippy too. They are the puppets I use to make Ira-Skippy look like a genius. Pretty ingenuous, eh?

- Oinkel Ira
Nah...you and Maggnus are the same person. Do you oink-oink at fat women in supermarkets? Otto does. Do you think that Fish is a Metaphor for womanly smells? Otto does. There's more.
Otto_Szucks
1.9 / 5 (8) May 28, 2016
Why would dark matter form a torus and not a point?
- gkam

By "torus", perhaps you are referring to an anapole particle that lacks an electric and magnetic field. The anapole field generates from a toroidal electric current, which is contained within the torus. Is that it?
gkam
1 / 5 (11) May 28, 2016
Dark matter is supposed to reside as halos around galaxies. Why would they do that?

And somebody tell the goobers a doughnut or a halo is a torus.

I think Dark Matter is just extradimensional matter from one of the other dimensions of String Theory.
Uncle Ira
4.1 / 5 (17) May 28, 2016
Dark matter is supposed to reside as halos around galaxies.Why would they do that?
Because it interacts ONLY with gravity, so it can not condense beyond a certain point.

And somebody tell the goobers a doughnut or a halo is a torus.
Cher, a halo in science is not the same as a halo on the angel on your Christmas tree. You should have learned what a "halo" is as opposed to a "torus" before your double goobered down on that one.

I think Dark Matter is just extradimensional matter from one of the other dimensions of String Theory.
Oh geeze pleeze Skippy. So you really think you are ready to even mention String Theory? Much less ponder on it? You didn't even know what Fourier Analysis, Transforms, and Series were, now you are going to pretend you got the math creds for String Theory? You did not even know that differential equations is not the same thing as quadratic equations.

And you really are shocked that you are the center of ridicule and derision?
gkam
1.6 / 5 (13) May 28, 2016
Give it up. Your fixation on me has gone too far.

But it has been interesting to see how some folk use such a great tool of the internet. I guess it is like using television for pathetic sitcoms.

And the anonymity of it seems to weaken self-limits, to give some folk the illusion of a free ride for whatever they want to say. Look at the kind of character it brought out in otto and Ira. Nobody will ever take them seriously any more, since they revealed themselves.
Uncle Ira
3.9 / 5 (15) May 28, 2016
Give it up. Your fixation on me has gone too far.

But it has been interesting to see how some folk use such a great tool of the internet. I guess it is like using television for pathetic sitcoms.

And the anonymity of it seems to weaken self-limits, to give some folk the illusion of a free ride for whatever they want to say. Look at the kind of character it brought out in otto and Ira. Nobody will ever take them seriously any more, since they revealed themselves.


Cher, if I was going to write something silly to mock you with, I could not do better than that one. Skippy, I get taken serious enough, I am satisfied.

You trying to force peoples to take you serious is the problem, for you. Begging peoples to let you "share my experiences". Come here to "teach you folks something" How dare they be such the impudent goobers.

Got to run Skippy. But I see you do have the Obama's-Skippy on your side. (That ought be a clue to a reasonably sound mind, eh?)
Otto_Szucks
1.6 / 5 (7) May 28, 2016
Give it up. Your fixation on me has gone too far.

Got to run Skippy. But I see you do have the Obama's-Skippy on your side. (That ought be a clue to a reasonably sound mind, eh?)
- Oinkel Ira

And what could possibly have motivated your wild imaginings that would concern my being on anyone's side, eh? Oh, was it because I asked gkam about his question re torus?
Ira, you poor thing. Too much dirty rice and crawfish pie for supper?
Hurricane season is here and you know how those canals, rivers, lakes, and bayous etc. swell in Category 5s. I'll pray for your safety. LMAO
Steelwolf
2.5 / 5 (8) May 29, 2016
These folks slamming gkam are obviously more ignorant about Dark Matter (the supposed theory thereof) and Ira stating that:
"Because it interacts ONLY with gravity, so it can not condense beyond a certain point."
Is an EXTREMELY Ignorant answer because NOBODY knows the properties of this supposed Dark Matter, and it may well respond to electrical stimuli and Magnetic Stimuli more than it does to Gravity. Presently Dark Matter is a completely unproven theory, not a theorem and so stating that you know things about it as Fact is utterly garbage and egotistical to the point of making yourself, and ALL of your comments on here, irrelevant Ira, plain and simple.

Magnetism is an atomic/molecular level event, and in plasma and cooling plasma-to-gas clouds it is going to be as strong or stronger than gravity, until a sizable mass is created so that gravity starts to help with the accretion process. But it starts with the basic valence charges and magnetism of individual particles.
Uncle Ira
4 / 5 (16) May 29, 2016
Is an EXTREMELY Ignorant answer because NOBODY knows the properties of this supposed Dark Matter, and it may well respond to electrical stimuli and Magnetic Stimuli more than it does to Gravity.
If that were so, it would be "seen" and not "dark"

Presently Dark Matter is a completely unproven theory, not a theorem and so stating that you know things about it as Fact is utterly garbage and egotistical to the point of making yourself,
Never said it was a "Fact". You must have me mixed up with somebody else.

Magnetism is an atomic/molecular level event, and in plasma and cooling plasma-to-gas clouds it is going to be as strong or stronger than gravity, until a sizable mass is created so that gravity starts to help with the accretion process.
Which be why Dark Matter is not seen condensing down to compact bodies or points, which is why it is thought NOT to interact electromagnetically or thermodynamic. So what now Skippy?
gkam
1 / 5 (11) May 29, 2016
Keep on hiding and watch.
Steelwolf
3.3 / 5 (7) May 29, 2016
Ira, your statement:
"Because it interacts ONLY with gravity, so it can not condense beyond a certain point."

Stated as if you KNOW this for a fact and are using that to berate gkam. I suggest you quit trying to measure your penis on these forums as it has gotten tiring watching you make such a fool of yourself as you twist and turn and never add anything worthwhile. gkam has actually been there, done that on some things, which obviously has you jealous and disbelieving. Where gkam did comms for high altitude, high speed craft that you find incredulous, I used to climb around the inside of nuclear reactors. So I find your armchair idiocy of trying to disprove him, being ONLY a Troll yourself, and I suspect a paid one at that, as boorish and uncultured as well as uneducated. Give it a rest and leave us alone Ira and others of your ilk make this place a joke, while folks that DO, like Mike_Massen, gkam and others DO and HAVE Done, Real Science instead of playing echo chamber.
Uncle Ira
3.9 / 5 (15) May 29, 2016
I used to climb around the inside of nuclear reactors.
Maybe that is what caused your problems, eh?

I suspect a paid one at that, as boorish and uncultured as well as uneducated.
Non Cher, not paid, I volunteer my time for free. The uncultured part you guessed right though, but you interrupted the roll you were on when you guess uneducated. So now you got to start over again.

Just between you and me, the prime magnet universe would be the good place to start. But I will advise you going in, you have some really stiff competition in the crankpot category, you got to make it good and interesting if you don't want to end up like bachoot, rubberman, A2G, non-fate, reset and the other guys getting ignored because they are boring.

So give it your bet shot and see if you can keep me on the hook for more than two or three postums, eh? glam-Skippy was goofy enough to keep me interested for a long time, he might even have the record for except Really-Skippy.

gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) May 29, 2016
"So give it your bet shot and see if you can keep me on the hook for more than two or three postums,"
----------------------------------
Notice how everything is personal with Ira, the fact he cannot debate the issues, but has to attack personally? I have been trying to get these silly folk back to Twitter, where they belong.

Yeah, my assertions of experience were rather extreme, but true. I just found myself in places and situations, and reacted. When my dad refused to sign my scholarships to Cal, I just drifted, and found myself in the Air Force. The rest just happened, aided by increasing PTS. That is the topic otto uses to taunt war veterans. Real class.

Ira knows about my service at Edwards AFB, I sent him a copy of the front page of the base newspaper with my picture on it (along with that of Pete Knight and some astronaut trainees).

Let's get back to science.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (11) May 29, 2016
The only laughter that's going on is in YOUR HEAD. This is supposedly a Science site and it's obvious that you have an agenda to destroy Physorg as a good Science site
But then you continue to post such material as this;
"The evil person's Soul doesn't experience the FIRES of hell immediately. No, it has to wait a very long time until the Sun goes supernova and envelopes and draws the Earth into it.
When this happens, all evil Souls, including demons, will burn for eternity.
I say it again what it I believe to be true in spite of what preachers say."........"
-and people can't help but laugh at it. So I blame you.
Let's get back to science
-You mean the real stuff or the stuff you make up?

There's a difference you know.
RealityCheck
2.1 / 5 (14) May 29, 2016
Hi Uncle Ira, I see you have tried to make a contribution to the science discussion by answering gkam's questions re exotic DM behaviour. Good on you! :)

But please try to leave out the extraneous matter such as your personal/trolling comments to him next time, that's a good chap. :)

Anyhow, your take on the 'non-clumping' tendencies of hypothesized exotic DM is correct. Which is why perhaps gkam asked his question? Since recent mainstream conjectures still pursue this 'possibility' of exotic DM 'clumping' to initiate further aggregation of ordinary matter at earliest 'moments' of the hypothesized Big Bang process.

See, mate? You've just shot a hole in ongoing mainstream desperate attempt to 'shoehorn' exotic DM into the cosmology to 'force fix' it via 'brute illogic'.

Maybe for that you will now be called a troll, crazy etc by your erstwhile 'followers'!

Either that or they'll realize that, when even an "Uncle Ira" can 'see' through 'exotic' DM, they must reconsider! :)
Uncle Ira
4.1 / 5 (14) May 29, 2016
Maybe for that you will now be called a troll, crazy etc
I been called a lot worse that, so that would not bother me too much.

by your erstwhile 'followers'!
Well, just between you and me, if they are following ME on this astrophysical stuffs, it serves them right if they get led astray. But if I am the only around at the time, I suppose I would be better than the EU Skippys or you or Bennie-Skipppy. There are a lot of peoples here they would be off following. Phys1 and Techno and Furlong and IMP and Shavara and Anti-Skippy and thermo and maggus and Da Schnieb and such like and some others I can't remember right now.

Either that or they'll realize that, when even an "Uncle Ira" can 'see' through 'exotic' DM, they must reconsider! :)
I hope they don't hang anything they realize on what I can see.
Fleetfoot
4.6 / 5 (9) May 30, 2016
If the early Universe was dense enough to form these massive objects bypassing a stellar phase then I am really impressed. The gravity to overcome fusion, magnetic forces, degeneracy, and collapse without ever forming a star is truly boggling.

It's not so surprising. Without metals, as a cloud condensed, it would heat up but give off little light (compare a bunsen flame to a candle). Without radiation pressure, it would not fragment but stay as a single, massive globule. Typical masses are expected to be well in excess of 300 Msun and possibly more than 1000 Msun.

A large black hole has a smaller mean density than a small one, so a black hole could perhaps form even before the temperature and pressure became high enough for fusion to start.
Fleetfoot
4.6 / 5 (9) May 30, 2016
Oops, you folk must have "forgotten" you are not on your high-school blog anymore.

This is a science site.


Sadly, that's probably the least accurate statement I've seen on this page :-(
Otto_Szucks
1.7 / 5 (6) May 30, 2016
Insanity is what it is.
- Pissypants1

Your self-description is noted and on record.
Otto_Szucks
1.7 / 5 (6) May 30, 2016
The only laughter that's going on is in YOUR HEAD. This is supposedly a Science site and it's obvious that you have an agenda to destroy Physorg as a good Science site
But then you continue to post such material as this;
"The evil person's Soul doesn't experience the FIRES of hell immediately. No, it has to wait a very long time until the Sun goes supernova and envelopes and draws the Earth into it.
When this happens, all evil Souls, including demons, will burn for eternity.
I say it again what it I believe to be true in spite of what preachers say."........"
-and people can't help but laugh at it. So I blame you.
Let's get back to science
-You mean the real stuff or the stuff you make up?

There's a difference you know.
- Theghostofotto (Skorzeny)

So Otto, where is your LINK that I have been asking you to produce in many threads - you know, your PROOF where I ever said that I saw your 900 foot glassy eyed martians laying down on Mars? LIAR
InterestedAmateur
4.4 / 5 (7) May 31, 2016
So RealityCheck you tell
Hi Uncle Ira, I see you have tried to make a contribution to the science discussion by answering gkam's questions re exotic DM behaviour. Good on you! :)

...
That's an ARROGANT statement for someone who has " The Theory of Everything" written and ready to go and simply refuses to publish.

So I gave you a YEAR to prove your BULLSHIT and have left you alone. Now PUT UP or SHUT UP and PISS OFF!

You have NO training in science and NOTHING but aggressive ignorance to try to bully people into shutting up.
RealityCheck
1.9 / 5 (9) May 31, 2016
Hi InterestedAmateur. :)

Please refer to my post to TehDog today, over in thread:

http://phys.org/n...les.html

Also please refer to my posts to Fleetfoot at around the same time and earlier.

Your concerns regarding my TOE 'tardiness' etc are addressed therein.

Also in that thread, I reciprocate your 'concern' about me and my work. I addressed a polite post to you and similarly 'concerned' posters, asking about what you have done with your life for science, humanity and the greater good. Uncle Ira took a stab at replying, but again his inner idiot' was too strong to allow him to make any sense let alone actually answering honestly when asked to account for himself as he and some others have asked me and others to. Fair is fair, hey? I am 'concerned' about what you and certain others mentioned in that post have been up to that may put my own humble efforts 'in the shade'. I expect to hear about some great efforts from you all. :)

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