Possible case for fifth force of nature

May 26, 2016 by Bob Yirka, Phys.org weblog
The Standard Model. Image credit: AAAS

A team of physicists at the University of California has uploaded a paper to the arXiv preprint server in which they suggest that work done by a team in Hungary last year might have revealed the existence of a fifth force of nature. Their paper has, quite naturally, caused quite a stir in the physics community as several groups have set a goal of reproducing the experiments conducted by the team at the Hungarian Academy of Science's Institute for Nuclear Research.

The work done by the Hungarian team, led by Attila Krasznahorkay, examined the possible existence of dark photons—the analog of conventional photons but that work with dark matter. They shot protons at lithium-7 samples creating beryllium-8 nuclei, which, as it decayed, emitted pairs of electrons and positrons. Surprisingly, as they monitored the emitted pairs, instead of a consistent drop-off, there was a slight bump, which the researchers attributed to the creation of an unknown particle with a mass of approximately 17 MeV. The team uploaded their results to the arXiv server, and their paper was later published by Physical Review Letters. It attracted very little attention until the team at UoC uploaded their own paper suggesting that the new particle found by the Hungarian team was not a dark photon, but was instead possibly a protophobic X boson, which they further suggested might carry a super-short which acts over just the width of an atomic nucleus—which would mean that it is a force that is not one of the four described as the fundamental forces that underlie modern physics.

The uploaded by the UoC team has created some excitement, as well as public exclamations of doubt—reports of the possibility of a fifth force of nature have been heard before, but none have panned out. But still, the idea is intriguing enough that several teams have announced plans to repeat the experiments conducted by the Hungarian team, and all eyes will be on the DarkLight experiments at the Jefferson Laboratory, where a team is also looking for evidence of photons—they will be shooting electrons at gas targets looking for anything with masses between 10 and 100 MeV, and now more specifically for those in the 17 MeV region. What they find, or don't, could prove whether an elusive fifth force of nature actually exists, within a year's time.

Explore further: Data from 'old' experiment appears to constrain the idea of dark photons as part of dark matter theory

More information: arxiv.org/pdf/1604.07411v1.pdf

A. J. Krasznahorkay et al. Observation of Anomalous Internal Pair Creation in: A Possible Indication of a Light, Neutral Boson, Physical Review Letters (2016). DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevLett.116.042501

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ursiny33
1.5 / 5 (11) May 26, 2016
If you knew that protons are a shell quantum particle construction, this would make sense, and the building blocks connected magnetically from two quantum constructions electrons, and positrons that build that mass into a proton ,of the parts your seeing in the collisions
ursiny33
1.4 / 5 (9) May 26, 2016
With positrons and electrons you can build neutrons and protons in shelled constructions magnetically , like a positron as a core particle could support an electron magnetically attached shell to produce a neutron that construction could support a positron attached magnetically shell to make a proton ,with those building blocks ,all the proton would need then is to capture a orbiting free electron yo become a new hydrogen atom ,all this probably takes place in the induction environments and emission environments around stars
physman
3.9 / 5 (15) May 26, 2016
This is really exciting! There have been so many interesting developments in all areas of physics in the past few years, it really feels like we are on the precipice of important discoveries in so many places.

We are exploring further and further into our solar system, honing in on the smallest scales with the LHC, and tackling the largest scales with our telescopes and simulations. I'm particularly excited by the results due this year from the Gaia satellite regarding the location + velocity map of Milky Way objects. I can't wait to watch the great mysteries unravel like Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Black Holes String Theory, or whatever the Universe can throw at us.

Keep it up clever people of the world!
mauriceg
4.7 / 5 (14) May 26, 2016
@ursiny33: English is my first language, so forgive me if I can't parse your answers.
ursiny33
1.4 / 5 (10) May 26, 2016
That means in first stage of fusion in stars of combining to hydrogen atoms into a heavy hydrogen atom that of the two protons ,one proton discharges the positron shell as those high energy particle emissions off stars to return the state of one proton into a neutron that it was before in its mechanical magnetic construction chain
ogg_ogg
4.2 / 5 (10) May 26, 2016
I'm no QFT theoretician (far, far from it), but the discovery of a new particle may or may not mean they have to add another symmetry group to the SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1) formulation of the Standard Model. It will take a while (unless they've already proved such a particle is incompatible with any modification of the Standard Model without additional groups?) to either prove or demonstrate convincingly that the best interpretation is adding another term. Big Claims require Big Verification. It will (if history is a good guide) be 5 or 10 years after any 5 sigma discovery is confirmed before the dust has effectively settled.
cgsperling
4.5 / 5 (10) May 26, 2016
They'd better not call it the "Dark Force", dammit.
Da Schneib
3.8 / 5 (10) May 26, 2016
Pretty interesting. More likely an extension of the SM than an overturn of it, though. And that's if it can be reproduced. This will be something to keep an eye on.
ursiny33
1.5 / 5 (8) May 26, 2016
Shooting protons at lithium 7 to produce beryllium 8 by fusing a few positrons and electrons into the lithium , gives you the clue of what the construction of the proton is , if you blow these electrons and positrons apart at higher energies into quantum parts , you would never know that those quantum parts were the make up of electrons and positrons from a proton constructed magnetic mass and that those are the building blocks, of neutrons and protons ,all you would have seen at the higher energy collisions would be the destruction and remnants quantum mess of them so that experiment delivered two information package's
ursiny33
1.5 / 5 (8) May 26, 2016
Without seeing those parts the science community will still be on the path of thinking that protons neutrons and electrons and positrons. Have zero sub structures as quantum constructions instead of thinking in terms of shell constructions and a mechanical chain of magnetic evolution between these parts to each other
ursiny33
1.6 / 5 (7) May 26, 2016
The unknown particle of 17 Mve is probably not a particle at all but a discharge of electrical energy in breaking the magnetic circuit of its opposite charges between the electrons and positrons
Enthusiastic Fool
4.6 / 5 (10) May 26, 2016
Who is ursiny33? He just rambles on and on, confidently, and I swear it's so familiar. I gotta start taking notes to keep the crazies straight.

With positrons and electrons you can build neutrons and protons in shelled constructions magnetically


I aint no bona fide Einstein genius but you might be legally retarded.
MrData
3.8 / 5 (4) May 27, 2016
I still get the feeling this will be another of those "what were we thinking?" ideas that come and go.
Ryan1981
5 / 5 (7) May 27, 2016
Who is ursiny33? He just rambles on and on, confidently, and I swear it's so familiar. I gotta start taking notes to keep the crazies straight.

With positrons and electrons you can build neutrons and protons in shelled constructions magnetically


I aint no bona fide Einstein genius but you might be legally retarded.


All part of my friday afternoon entertainment, also, someone here did that work for you:
https://docs.goog...it#gid=0
FineStructureConstant
3.7 / 5 (6) May 27, 2016
@Ryan - how about that! I started only this week to put together a list on my PC of those whom I'd regard as "good guys" in this forum, since it was getting a little problematic for me - who has great difficulty remembering names anyway - to keep up. The list you've linked to is pure gold: thanks!
FineStructureConstant
4.2 / 5 (5) May 27, 2016
@EF - it would seem ursiny has never got past elementary circuits and magnets at skool, and the most complex thing his grey cells can come up with is protons and neutrons being made of electrons and positrons held together with fridge-door magnets. Or some such nonsense; in any case, it would seem that quarks, gluons, strong and weak forces are a step too far for his on-board microprocessor.

Trouble is, like most people with blinkered vision, he just can't understand why others don't see the sheer untrammeled genius in what he's saying.

What a strange thing this Internet is - it gives us access to huge amounts of data and information sources, but along with it comes a veritable tsunami of drooling inanity. Like the EU shenanigans, for instance...
FineStructureConstant
3.7 / 5 (6) May 27, 2016
@MrData
I still get the feeling this will be another of those "what were we thinking?" ideas that come and go.
My feelings go the other way - it would seem they have made measurements of M1 (magnetic-dipole) transitions in 8Be and found an anomalous peak in the data. Using simulations for various internal pair creation (IPC) scenarios, plus a simulation for the decay of a particle of 16.6 MeV/c^2, they were able to come up with a good match to the experimental data.

So, the measured results, from an experiment conducted over several weeks and at different proton beam energies, are at least consistent with the hypothesis that such a particle was being created and then decaying.
Da Schneib
3 / 5 (4) May 27, 2016
@FSC, Worthy of note, also, this is a very simple system as such things go. Four protons and four neutrons, plus energy of one of the protons. Twelve quarks plus energy. Nothing more.

Simulations of a system this simple are within reach of our current systems, using non-perturbative systems like lattice chromodynamics. Also worthy of note, no one has examined this using lattice QCD techniques that I have seen. Admittedly it would be near the limits of what we can do, but if other experiments (particularly Dark Light) find a bump at the same place, I would say this is the next likely path of investigation.
Phys1
3 / 5 (4) May 27, 2016
Who is ursiny33? He just rambles on and on, confidently, and I swear it's so familiar. I gotta start taking notes to keep the crazies straight.

That sounds like compose.
FineStructureConstant
3.4 / 5 (5) May 27, 2016
@DS, whenever the quantum computer becomes a reality, those lattice QCD simulations could probably be run in milliseconds.

Checking out the "proton radius problem" right now - fascinating.
Maggnus
4.2 / 5 (5) May 27, 2016
Who is ursiny33? He just rambles on and on, confidently, and I swear it's so familiar. I gotta start taking notes to keep the crazies straight.

That sounds like compose.

Which is Zephir - the water duck aether quack.
Da Schneib
3.7 / 5 (3) May 27, 2016
@FSC, actually you wouldn't need lattice QCD with a quantum computer. Such a device could directly simulate such activity without having to use mathematical workarounds like lattices.
EnsignFlandry
not rated yet May 30, 2016
They'd better not call it the "Dark Force", dammit.


Good one. The original team was led by Attila the Hun (garian).

The idea of a fifth force is a stretch. It seems to ignore the many alternative explanations and goes straight to a radical proposal. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
Hyperfuzzy
1 / 5 (1) May 30, 2016
Really? I see only the centers of the spherical electric field. The rest is BS. Nothing else exist except in someone's head not even the false concept of "nothing", the fields are everywhere! Silly wabbit! How do you get there from no where?
Hyperfuzzy
1 / 5 (1) May 30, 2016
Oh, and for QM, you do know a perfect black body does not exist, what would it be made of? Secondly if it has walls then you just defined a quantifiable system that does not exist. OK, cool toy but delivering unrealities. Everything is made of these spherical field centers. Space is surprising, if not we would not be here. In other words, the way these guys think we cannot exist.
Mazarin07
not rated yet Jun 03, 2016
"The [Hungarian] team uploaded their results to the arXiv server, and their paper was later published by Physical Review Letters. It attracted very little attention until the team at UoC [USA] uploaded their own paper"
Very sad to hear this. It looks like discrimination is a problem even in the scientific world.

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