Police view blacks as 'suspects first, civilians second'

March 22, 2016
A study by Michigan State University criminologist Jennifer Cobbina suggests black people believe police view them as worthless thugs and that this perception, true or not, affects police-community relations in an era of persistent racial strife. Credit: Michigan State University

Most of the Ferguson protestors believed police view black people as worthless thugs and white people as innocent and superior - perceptions that, true or not, affect police-community relations in an era of persistent racial strife.

Michigan State University criminologist Jennifer Cobbina conducted in-depth interviews with demonstrators in Ferguson, Missouri, following the Aug. 9, 2014, fatal shooting of Michael Brown, an unarmed black man, by Darren Wilson, a white officer.

Cobbina's study, in the Journal of Crime and Justice, is one of the first to investigate whether and to what extent African-Americans associate people of color to crime, which is known as racial typification.

"The protestors did not view police brutality and discrimination as an isolated phenomenon," said Cobbina, associate professor of criminal justice. "Rather, they believed that it's reflective of broader social inequality and discrimination in society at large."

The interviews with 81 protestors—75 black, six white—included a question of whether blacks were more likely to engage in crime than whites. Past research has consistently demonstrated that white Americans strongly associate blacks with crime and overestimate the proportion of crime committed by people of color.

But most Ferguson protestors felt that whites and blacks commit crime equally, with blacks more likely to commit petty crimes and whites more likely to commit white-collar crimes.

As for perceptions about law enforcement, one respondent, a black woman named Susanna, said police "view us as dogs. Our lives are [considered] worthless. They don't think that we matter." Another respondent, a black male named Kaleem, said police see males as "suspects first, civilians second."

"The majority of the respondents did not racially typify , but they strongly believed the police did," Cobbina said. "Whether it's true or not, the very fact that they're perceiving this is obviously going to have an effect on police-community relations."

The findings suggest people would like to see greater efforts to improve police-community relations, discontinue racial profiling and tackle the social, economic and political issues that contribute to violence in urban and suburban neighborhoods, such as unemployment and poverty.

"The social unrest in Ferguson," the study says, "was not simply in response to the death of Michael Brown, but rather widespread racial and social injustice on the part of the police and larger society that produced the conditions in which this young man was killed."

Cobbina, who lived near Ferguson for five years, conducted a second wave of interviews with protestors after a grand jury chose not to indict Wilson for the shooting. She also interviewed demonstrators in Baltimore following the 2015 death of Freddie Gray while in police custody. Cobbina is writing a book on Ferguson and Baltimore residents' experiences with police.

Explore further: New survey on Americans' views on law enforcement, violence, and race

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rderkis
5 / 5 (4) Mar 22, 2016
It would be interesting to see the same kind of study in a neighborhood with a predominantly black police department.
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (15) Mar 22, 2016
It would be interesting to see the same kind of study in a neighborhood with a predominantly black police department.


It would still be true. The police are naturally attracted (obliged) to where the higher crime rate exists. Blacks are involved in crime to a disproportionately higher rate. It's these two facts combined that lead to more unfortunate and unnecessary incidences between police and black citizens, and is why disproportionately more blacks are incarcerated for drug use,... police are just around more often.

If a community has disproportionately higer crime rate then naturally, some fitting the profile in that community will be viewed as suspects . This is simply a natural reaction to facts and reflects survival instincts of police.

Noumenon
3.3 / 5 (16) Mar 22, 2016
Past research has consistently demonstrated that white Americans strongly associate blacks with crime and overestimate the proportion of crime committed by people of color.


There is a reason why.

But most Ferguson protestors [92% black] felt that whites and blacks commit crime equally, with blacks more likely to commit petty crimes and whites more likely to commit white-collar crimes.


This is factually wrong, as blacks commit disproportionately higher violent crime. These protestors have no interest in critiquing their own failed subculture in order to determine rational cause and effect,... breakdown of family unit, welfare state, perpetual vintimization industry, glorification of ganstrer and thug mentality, etc

If you can't be honest about your own communities problems then don't expect others to fix them for you.

Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (15) Mar 22, 2016
was not simply in response to the death of Michael Brown, but rather widespread racial and social injustice on the part of the police and larger society that produced the conditions in which this young man was killed."


What an abject fraud. Michael Brown thuggish criminal mentally is what got him killed,... robbing a store threatening a business owner, walking down the middle of the street looking for trouble, then attacks a police officer just doing his job,.., THATS what got him killed.

The very divisive racial victim industry are frauds to dilute the blame into society as a whole. How far will they go to obfuscate the core causes and personal responsibility.


TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (10) Mar 22, 2016
This is factually wrong, as blacks commit disproportionately higher violent crime
Who else here hates the word factually? Who else here thinks the word adds no meaning to the discussion and is only used for posturing purposes?

Nou states the obvious but still cannot acknowledge the WHY of it.

Tribalists regard outsiders as somewhat less than human. The tribal dynamic demands internal empathy coupled with external animosity. Crimes committed against outsiders are not considered crimes; they are instead lauded and encouraged.

This is true for both sides of the conflict. People of any race, creed, or color who are acting neutrally are generally able to coexist peacefully. But when one group begins to exhibit the tribal dynamic it incites those same feelings in the people around them.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (9) Mar 22, 2016
Tribalism is rampant in cities where competition for resources is high and identification with society as a whole is diminished. Language, mode of dress, and activities meant to enhance tribal cohesion incite reciprocal behaviors in others.

In this case we are talking about inner city blacks and the police.

Sorry I had more to say but lost 2 posts and ran out of steam.
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (15) Mar 22, 2016
For vietvet and others who's politically correct delicate sensibilities may obscure their objectivity and cause them to reactionary troll rate my posts ….

Reference: U.S. Department of Justice report 2011

Page 11; In 2008, the homicide rate for blacks was 7 times higher than the rate for whites.

Page 12; Black men commit 52% of all murders in the USA, which is rather shocking given the additional statistic that blacks, male plus female plus children, only constitute 13% of the total population.

Wrt, Michael Brown and the Officer who shot him…. Eric Holder, the black attorney general who supports the racial injustice industry and member of the Obama administration (the first black POTUS),…. Was unable to prosecute the above mentions office. Therefore the protestors representing the above poll operate under a fraud and misunderstanding of facts.
Noumenon
3.5 / 5 (13) Mar 22, 2016
None of my posts above are meant to excuse the responsibility of police to treat all citizens with respect and avoid unnecessary profiling. This point is that given more instances of police interaction in black communities there is going to be more instances of inappropriate behavior on the part of the police,... that this is simply a natural result stemming from higher crime rate and response of increased police presence.

It is not sustenance for the victim-industry to feed on in order to perpetuate racial divisiveness.

Noumenon
3 / 5 (12) Mar 22, 2016
@TheGhostofOtto1923,... I prefer the term "community" over "tribe" here,... but here is another fact from the above referenced U.S. Department of Justice report (page 11 to 13),....

- In 2008, the homicide victimization rate for blacks was 6 times higher than the rate for
whites.

-93% of black victims were killed by other blacks.

-84% of white victims were killed by other whites.

This clearly exposes inner "tribal" dynamics.

I believe that I have enumerates some of the causes of this above. IMO, a separatist subculture, and the racial victim industry, especially in advocating the notion of 'systemic racism',... is profoundly divisive and are doing so to obscure the true self-inflicted causes of the issues that present black American experiences.

Zzzzzzzz
2.2 / 5 (10) Mar 22, 2016
Noumenon, it is easy to observe current events and statistics and reach immediate conclusions. Its another matter altogether to understand the history of actions, the resulting feedback loops, and to promote a true understanding. To engage in the first and ignore the second is to perpetuate the first, and therefore join or become the force that continues the problem.

That is a great definition of a modern racist. That is what you are.

Racism does not require the racist to harbor animosity toward those discriminated against, it only requires perpetuation of the discrimination.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (12) Mar 22, 2016
Calling one a "racist" is what perpetuates divisiveness, and is done deliberately to obscure the points made. Intellectual corruption.

Merely referring to racial statistics does not make one a racist. Doing so with the motivation to demonstrate that a particular race is inferior, makes one a racist. This I have not done. Not all racial statements are racist, but all racist statements are racial.

Its another matter altogether to understand the history of actions, the resulting feedback loops, and to promote a true understanding.


I have not discussed the oppressive history of the black population in the USA in this thread,... not because I do not acknowledge it, as you have ASSUMED WITHOUT JUSTIFICATION,... but because that is not the core problem being discussed here. We are discussing crime rate that is not justified by past history.

There are other communities which have been economically disadvantages with no where near the crime rate.

Noumenon
3 / 5 (12) Mar 22, 2016
The state of the PC racial victim industry is such that ANY mention of facts exposing self-inflicted cultural problems are immediately branded "racist" in order to shut down such discussion. The pendulum has swung so far the other way that it is actively and deliberately obscuring the core issues enumerated above, so that the problems are in a state of perpetuity.

antigoracle
2.8 / 5 (9) Mar 22, 2016
a black male named Kaleem, said police see black males as "suspects first, civilians second."

Wow, Kaleem said it, so it must be true. Very scientific.
bertibus
2.3 / 5 (6) Mar 22, 2016
@ Zzzzzzz Aah, we have the latest left-wing, all encompassing trope, "You may not realise it, but sub-consciously you are a racist". Bravo!
How many of the Ferguson 'protestors' were local? How many bussed in and paid to trash the town?
Captain Stumpy
4.4 / 5 (8) Mar 22, 2016
sorry... gotta rant
Michigan State University criminologist Jennifer Cobbina conducted in-depth interviews with demonstrators
so now demonstrators are psychic and know what police think? WTF?
The protestors did not view police brutality and discrimination as an isolated phenomenon
this would have been better if it was the general population, not protestors, who are typically biased towards an issue, so again WTF???
As for perceptions about law enforcement
valid or not they are OPINIONS, not facts, & demonstrates it shortly after with
but they strongly believed the police did
OPINION isn't fact
conducted a second wave of interviews with protestors
and where are the DOJ statistics in all this?

cops are taught to do a basic profile based upon their location and crime stats in said area, plus they recognize repeat offenders and have informants to target the worst offenders

this article is annoyingly stupid IMHO
eric_in_chicago
2.6 / 5 (5) Mar 22, 2016
A person who gets beat up by someone may tend to generalize about that group in the future.

Sometimes that is a person who gets attacked by a Black person.

Police have a history of harassing and attacking Black youth, without cause.

Could this have anything to do with creating a sub-culture that doesn't see the benefit of abiding by law?
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Mar 22, 2016
Its another matter altogether to understand the history of actions, the resulting feedback loops, and to promote a true understanding
@Zzzz
problem with the above article is that it takes the protester opinion only, so it is biased (heavily)
this would be like taking only the opinion of the cops

a better (far better, IMHO) would be something national (like through the census or with your medical checks, or a crime survey of more than 50,000 respondents) with a huge database of multi-racial input while considering the specific protestor information along side of it to determine the bias factor of the protestors as well as the general opinion and outlook.

but they don't do that at all. they take opinion from protesters ...

what would this have looked like in the 1960's ??
what about location in the 80's? like LA only, South Miami only? Brooklyn only?
see the problem with making the above assumptions with a limited opinion poll of biased people?
Noumenon
2.8 / 5 (9) Mar 22, 2016
@ Zzzzzzz Aah, we have the latest left-wing, all encompassing trope, "You may not realise it, but sub-consciously you are a racist".


Yes exactly, left-wingers desire to expand the meaning of "racist", way beyond its actual meaning, in order to snare as many in it's divisive net as possible. The ultimate generalizations and thus ultimate dilution of its meaning, is 'systemic racism'.

How positively disrespectful to those who have actually suffered from it a few generations ago.

Police have a history of harassing and attacking Black youth, without cause.


This is true generally speaking in terms of segregation history. It is 2016 now, not the 1960's. There is no lack of civil rights cause and effect now.

Effect follows cause, ..cause never follows effect. The police MUST be present in areas of high crime. They are there because the conditions (high crime areas) require them to be there.

Captain Stumpy
4 / 5 (8) Mar 22, 2016
one last rant point about the above article

how many of the polled protesters are paid protesters?

http://www.cnn.co...dex.html

http://www.bbc.co...29106266

http://www.huffin...880.html

http://www.newsma.../646587/
greenonions
3.4 / 5 (5) Mar 22, 2016
Noumenon
Merely referring to racial statistics does not make one a racist.
But this might -
Michael Brown thuggish criminal mentally is what got him killed
Especially if it is response to this statement
was not simply in response to the death of Michael Brown, but rather widespread racial and social injustice on the part of the police and larger society that produced the conditions in which this young man was killed."
I was not there - and I would assume Noumenon was not either. So why the need to characterize this situation at all? there is racial and social injustice in America - this is complex - the black community is telling us about their experience. Noumenon once again needs to insert him/herself into the situation - and plaster the internet with this kind of rubbish
We are discussing crime rate that is not justified by past history.
Understanding something is not justifying it.
anonieme_x
1 / 5 (2) Mar 22, 2016
The article reminds me of:
1) the anecdote of 'Abraham Wald an the missing bullet holes'
2) Jane Elliott's Brown Eyes vs. Blue Eyes Experiment
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (6) Mar 22, 2016
@TheGhostofOtto1923,... I prefer the term "community" over "tribe" here,... but here is another fact from the above referenced U.S. Department of Justice report (page 11 to 13),....
I know because you don't know what it is.

It's biological. We've been selected for it over the course of 1000s of gens. It is reflected in our affinity for cliques, classes, gangs, clubs, sports teams, fraternities. Religions exploit it. Nationalism is its most profound expression.

"Marshall (1898), also writing in the fin de siècle instinct psychology tradition, included among his `tribal instincts of a higher type', the patriotic instinct, which was aroused by aggressive threats from neighboring nations, or by opportunity for tribal aggrandizement. He explained the self- sacrificial behavior of warriors in terms of biological sacrifice, a form of extreme altruism that paid off in `tribal advantage' (Crook, 1994)."

-It explains prejudice, morality, pogram, war.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (6) Mar 22, 2016
For more info on tribalism
http://rint.recht...rid2.htm

-It's not something that the academic world can acknowledge because it means that divergence is the norm and bigotry is natural.

This does not make them right, only inevitable.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.5 / 5 (8) Mar 22, 2016
Here we can recognize tribal prejudice in nou's depiction of liberals, even as he decries their own tribalist duplicity;
Yes exactly, left-wingers desire to expand the meaning of "racist", way beyond its actual meaning, in order to snare as many in it's divisive net as possible
Here is a nice article on tribalism in politics and culture;
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/is-tribalism-inevitable_b_3661436.html
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (11) Mar 22, 2016
Merely referring to racial statistics does not make one a racist.


But this might -

Michael Brown thuggish criminal mentally is what got him killed


Stating facts is not racist.

He roughed up a shop keeper and robed the store, then proceeded to walk down the middle of a road, which was why the cops came, then charged the police officer.

His actions are what got him killed. Society did not cause him to do this. There is nothing intrinsic in him that caused his actions therefore he is responsible for them. My comment is not "racist", it is factual.

You don't know what racism is. You're just another dime-a-dozen half-wit that has been conditioned through left-wing propaganda to misuse that charge when you have no argument, nor facts.

You're back on ignore.
greenonions
3 / 5 (6) Mar 22, 2016
Stating facts is not racist.
It certainly can be - and the way you state your facts can influence that. The fact is that America has many serious social problems. Racial conflict, and conflict between the black community and law enforcement are two of the problems that are receiving a great deal of attention at the moment. Today's article, and much of the black lives matter movement are about this tension. There is clearly much distrust of law enforcement. How do you help the situation by throwing around your terms like "thuggish criminal mentality." You were not there, and neither was I. It seems clear to me from your need to negatively insert yourself to these discussions so quickly - that you are pushing an agenda. You toss around your little sentences like "We are discussing crime rate that is not justified by past history." But past history is of course important in understanding the situation. You seem intent on inserting yourself in a negative way.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (4) Mar 23, 2016
Stating facts is not racist.
It certainly can be - and the way you state your facts can influence that. The fact is that America has many serious social problems. Racial conflict,(...)There is clearly much distrust of law enforcement.(...)You seem intent on inserting yourself in a negative way.
- onions
I see nothing wrong with the way Noumenon presented the facts of the matter. But, of course, neither of us are Socialist/Liberal/Marxist/Regressive who has been indoctrinated in the Margaret Sanger view that Blacks can't help behaving like savages, therefore - Eugenics.

If Black communities feel that they are being singled out and marked for destruction via incarceration or killed by police, then why not pull ALL members of Law Enforcement OUT of those communities to avoid any future problems with thugs being killed. Let them all patrol ONLY White communities and Hispanic communities if they are welcomed there. No more problems. Thugs are people too, right?
greenonions
4 / 5 (4) Mar 24, 2016
I see nothing wrong with the way Noumenon presented the facts of the matter.
Of course you don't. And your response to a situation in which there is conflict between law enforcement and the black community - is to suggest withdrawing law enforcement from neighborhoods that are predominantly black. Because the "thugs" that live there, are not real humans. And of course they are ALL thugs, no citizens there who deserve equal rights and protections under the constitution.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (8) Mar 24, 2016
. Society did not cause him to do this. There is nothing intrinsic in him that caused his actions therefore he is responsible for them
His 'society', ie tribe, is what enabled him to identify Zimmerman as a 'cracker' worthy of being attacked.

Because of this perception, trayvon perceived a threat and felt it was OK to eliminate that threat.

Had he not been shot trayvon might well have murdered Zimmerman although he would not have considered it murder because it was against a member of another tribe.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.4 / 5 (7) Mar 24, 2016
why not pull ALL members of Law Enforcement OUT of those communities
Yah I think they should spend more time in white trash trailer parks where you guys live.

You know, your extended inbred family, your pet squirrels and opossums, and your farm animals.

Plenty of crimes against humanity there.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (3) Mar 25, 2016
I see nothing wrong with the way Noumenon presented the facts of the matter.
Of course you don't. And your response to a situation in which there is conflict between law enforcement and the black community - is to suggest withdrawing law enforcement from neighborhoods that are predominantly black. Because the "thugs" that live there, are not real humans. And of course they are ALL thugs, no citizens there who deserve equal rights and protections under the constitution.
- onions
So, you don't think that the thugs who live there aren't "real" humans, eh? I didn't say it, YOU did.
What makes you say that they are ALL thugs? I think that it is YOU that has a huge problem and it is YOU who is the RACIST...otherwise, why would you come up with all these racist comments if you weren't thinking in those terms? I gave the opinion that if Black citizens don't want protection from the cops, then get rid of the cops. It's easy enough.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (4) Mar 25, 2016
The vast majority of Whites, Asians and Hispanics teach their children to be respectful of Law Enforcement and to avoid getting into trouble with the Law. This is not to say that ALL Whites, Asians and Hispanics are concerned enough about their children to teach them the difference between right and wrong, but most do this as a matter of good parenting and to avoid bringing shame and suffering into their family. Maybe it's a cultural thing or it's just plain common sense to help deter social problems.
White people of all ages get stopped by cops for all sorts of reasons. Some cops will even check the interior and trunk of the car of White, Asian and Hispanic drivers if he suspects illegal drugs or that the driver and occupants were involved in a burglary, etc. Big deal. If the person is innocent, there's nothing to worry about.
'If you do the crime, then you have to do the time' is what it comes down to. Racism has nothing to do with it. Guilty or not, you must show respect.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (5) Mar 25, 2016
why not pull ALL members of Law Enforcement OUT of those communities
Yah I think they should spend more time in white trash trailer parks where you guys live.

You know, your extended inbred family, your pet squirrels and opossums, and your farm animals.

Plenty of crimes against humanity there.
- Ottoshithead
Otto describes his own family's meager existence very well. Notice how Otto says "WHITE trash trailer parks" as opposed to "BLACK trash trailer parks" or "ASIAN trash trailer parks". This is a clear sign of a RACIAL animosity/hatred towards the White race, quite possibly due to Adolf Hitler's defeat by European and American Whites who also defeated Otto's Nazi idol, Otto Skorzeny.
Isn't that right, Otto?
LMAO
BTW, is your Profile for Theghostofotto1932 still up? That was your tribute/shrine to your favorite turd Reich Nazi, Otto Skorzeny. That Profile revealed a lot about you, you old Beelzebub you.
LOL
Da Schneib
4 / 5 (4) Mar 25, 2016
The simple fact of the matter is that people, black or white, who grow up in economically depressed circumstances are more likely to commit crimes than people who grow up in economically affluent circumstances. It has nothing to do with what color they are.

If you look at bare population vs. crime statistics, you will find that black people make up about 12.2% of the US population, but are arrested for for 28.3% of all crimes.

However, if you then cross-reference that with net worth statistics, the median net worth of white households in the US is $141,900 but the median net worth of black households is $11,000 and the median net worth of Hispanic households is $13,700. Folks, that's 10x for Hispanic households and 13x for black households.

The obvious implication is that given that blacks make a median 1/13 as much as whites, but the crime rate for blacks is only 2.5x as high as for whites, is that black people are *better* than white people.
Da Schneib
4.2 / 5 (5) Mar 25, 2016
Link for economic statistics: http://www.pewres...cession/

I'd be interested in seeing crime statistics by income and race. My expectation, given the statistics I've already seen, is that poor whites commit crimes more often than poor blacks, by a pretty whopping percentage.

I don't expect that's going to be a very popular viewpoint here.
Da Schneib
4.2 / 5 (5) Mar 25, 2016
The editing function removed my links for violent crime rates and for racial statistics.

US violent crime rates: https://www.fbi.g...table-43

US population by race: https://en.wikipe...thnicity
Da Schneib
4.2 / 5 (5) Mar 25, 2016
Now all of that said, I think that the problem isn't the racial attitude of the police, it's the attitude of the police period. They tend to see everyone they deal with as a perp. They're not interested in solving problems, they're interested in arresting people. It's stupid and counter-productive. There isn't any "community policing" any more. My father told me this in the 1980s, and I didn't believe him until I had to deal with police myself in the last ten years.

I don't trust the police any more, and I'm white and affluent. Imagine how much worse off a poor black person is.
Da Schneib
4.2 / 5 (5) Mar 25, 2016
BTW I note with great interest that crime statistics by race *and income* are not available.

Not from any source I could find. (I found some references that claimed blacks were 4.4 more times likely to commit crimes at the equal economic level, but they were from stormfront.com; 'nuff said, I wouldn't touch that with *your* 10-foot pole.)

Looks like nobody wants to know.

Any questions?
Da Schneib
4 / 5 (4) Mar 25, 2016
Here's a study that says that crime rates follow socioeconmic status and not race: http://sf.oxfordj...75/2/619

Here's the full paper: http://faculty.wa...1996.pdf

Welcome to the real world.
Guy_Underbridge
2.6 / 5 (5) Mar 25, 2016
"(John Ehrlichman) One of Richard Nixon's top advisers and a key figure in the Watergate scandal said the war on drugs was created as a political tool to fight blacks and hippies, according to a 22-year-old interview recently published in Harper's Magazine."

Sow and ye shall reap
Da Schneib
3 / 5 (4) Mar 25, 2016
"(John Ehrlichman) One of Richard Nixon's top advisers and a key figure in the Watergate scandal said the war on drugs was created as a political tool to fight blacks and hippies, according to a 22-year-old interview recently published in Harper's Magazine."

Sow and ye shall reap
Or to put it another way, the average IQ is 100. And the destroyatives are the ones keeping it down there.
Da Schneib
3.4 / 5 (5) Mar 25, 2016
Now, I've put the data in front of you. You can see it, or you can make up stories about how it's not true.

I'll come look and see what those of you who I know are reasonable people think in a while.

Surprise me. I'm pretty pessimistic about this, and I base that view on the statistics mentioned in the article we're talking about here:

"Past research has consistently demonstrated that white Americans strongly associate blacks with crime and overestimate the proportion of crime committed by people of color."

Prove me wrong. Improve my attitude.
greenonions
3 / 5 (6) Mar 25, 2016
sox
So, you don't think that the thugs who live there aren't "real" humans, eh? I didn't say it, YOU did.
I was using sarcasm. Learn to read the whole post - and understand the intent. I was saying that this is the implication of your post.
greenonions
3 / 5 (6) Mar 25, 2016
sox
I gave the opinion that if Black citizens don't want protection from the cops, then get rid of the cops. It's easy enough.
Black Lives Matter is not saying they don't want protection from the police. They are saying they don't want to be treated differently by the police. That you don't understand the fundamental issue of the debate - is staggering. Then there is also the other issue I was raising. If you withdraw the police from the high crime communities (as you suggest) - there are of course thousands of people living in these communities - many may be white. You are proposing allowing totally chaotic war zones - where innocent people are unprotected. I already pointed out the problem this causes from a constitutional stand point. You are seem not capable of reading.
greenonions
3.4 / 5 (5) Mar 25, 2016
Da Schneib - nice reasoned set of posts - thanks.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.3 / 5 (7) Mar 25, 2016
Black Lives Matter... don't want to be treated differently by the police... you don't understand the fundamental issue... is staggering
Well your gullibility is a little staggering. If unarmed trayvon RIP had been white, and had gotten shot while pounding poor Georges head into the pavement, then george would have been a hero.

If unarmed 240lb Michael brown (who was charging a cop after trying to shoot him with his own gun inside his police car) had been white, that cop would have been a hero.

If that unarmed big fat guy (who was selling loosies and resisted arrest because he had been arrested a dozen times before) had been white, he would have just been some dumb idiot who had no business wrestling cops in his condition.

Etcetcetc.

I often get followed through Walmart by store security too. Does that make me oppressed as well? Do blacks know how relatively unoppressed they really are?

Move On is part of a campaign begun a few years ago to get Hillary elected.
cantdrive85
2.3 / 5 (3) Mar 25, 2016
Police view blacks as 'suspects first, civilians second'

The M.O. is to shoot first, plant a weapon second.
"Officer Jimbo, it's coming right for us...."
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (11) Mar 25, 2016
Da Schneib - nice reasoned set of posts - thanks.


Not so much, as he interjected economic factors in order to obfuscate the present discussion,... which was about police reaction to high crime areas and profile.

I posted stats from a report directly from the U.S. Department of Justice. You can't get more unbiased than that....

Page 11; In 2008, the homicide rate for blacks was 7 times higher than the rate for whites.

Page 12; Black men commit 52% of all murders in the USA, which is rather shocking given the additional statistic that blacks, male plus female plus children, only constitute 13% of the total population.

What those factual stats indicate is what the police are directly reacting to. The Police are not reacting to the fact that 'economically blacks are disadvantaged',... nor are they directly reacting to 'historical racial oppression'. They are reacting to disproportionate high crime and natural reaction from facts.
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (11) Mar 25, 2016
..... If one wants to investigate WHY there is disproportionately high violent crime rate among blacks, THEN DaSchieb's analysis would be appropriate and factual to that question,... (albeit leaving out a core problem,... breakdown in the family unit and destructive subculture of gangs and thuggish music industry, perpetual victimization industry propaganda, etc).

However, wrt individual personal accountability, there is no excuses for violent crime, period.

I see nothing wrong with the way Noumenon presented the facts of the matter. But, of course, neither of us are Socialist/Liberal/Marxist/Regressive who has been indoctrinated in the Margaret Sanger view that Blacks can't help behaving like savages....


The more subtle racism, in liberal condescension and over-the-top racial sensitivity, exposes an unconscious desire to defend the weak, hapless, and inferior by implication.

Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (11) Mar 25, 2016
It is the racism of selective lowered expectations that motivates one to offer excuses for core facts, and motivates divisive ultra-sensitivity and thus charges of faux racism.

[I'm not lost on the irony here,.. the above is more valid than the arbitrary charge of racism offered by greenonions above when I only posted facts without making statements about 'intrinsic nature of race' at all nor have I denied ultimate social causes]

Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (11) Mar 25, 2016
Merely referring to racial statistics does not make one a racist.

But this might -
Michael Brown thuggish criminal mentally is what got him killed


That is not a racial comment, but one of fact. You don't know what racism means do you.

Especially if it is response to this statement "was not simply in response to the death of Michael Brown, but rather widespread racial and social injustice on the part of the police and larger society that produced the conditions in which this young man was killed."


Which is nothing more than gibberish back-loading of history in order to absolve the personal behavior of M. Brown, and found a faux movement based on lies.

He was not killed by history and "larger society", he was killed by legal reaction and response to his personal thuggish behavior.

This present notion of "systemic racism" is an abject fraud, propagandized to perpetuate the victim industry.

greenonions
2.7 / 5 (7) Mar 25, 2016
Noumenon
That is not a racial comment, but one of fact. You don't know what racism means do you.
Yes I do. What do you know about Michael Brown's mentality? Are you a psychologist? Have you met him Your comment was not factual - it used loaded words like thuggish.

This present notion of "systemic racism" is an abject fraud
No it is not - and there is plenty of evidence out there on that one if you want to do some reading. Here is one hit - http://www.usnews...-of-life I have done some reading on the subject of generational poverty, and institutionalized racism is a part of that topic. You are flat wrong - but always need to insert yourself - into a topic that you clearly know very little about. I thought you were putting me on ignore (twice).
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (11) Mar 25, 2016
That is not a racial comment, but one of fact. You don't know what racism means do you.
Yes I do. What do you know about Michael Brown's mentality? Are you a psychologist? Have you met him Your comment was not factual - it used loaded words like thuggish.


What do you know of what I know? I saw the cc-cam video of him roughing up a store worker while robbing it,... thug. He also attacked a police officer; good way of getting yourself killed.

This present notion of "systemic racism" is an abject fraud
No it is not - and there is plenty of evidence out there on that one if you want to do some reading.

There is plenty of propaganda and race baiting, which sweeping divisive phrases like "institutionalized racism" summarizes well.

greenonions
3.3 / 5 (7) Mar 25, 2016
Otto
Well your gullibility is a little staggering
Not gullible at all Otto. Listing specific incidents shows your bias. We are talking about institutionalized racism - which is an issue -
In Oakland, California, the NAACP reported that out of 45 officer-involved shootings in the city between 2004 and 2008, 37 of those shot were black. None were white. One-third of the shootings resulted in fatalities. Although weapons were not found in 40 percent of cases, the NAACP found, no officers were charged
From - http://www.mother...lack-men
greenonions
3.3 / 5 (7) Mar 25, 2016
There is plenty of propaganda and race baiting, which sweeping divisive phrases like "institutionalized racism" summarizes well.
I provided support for my position. As usual - you got nothing. Are you sure you don't want to put me on ignore? You keep promising...
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (6) Mar 25, 2016
Listing specific incidents shows your bias. We are talking about institutionalized racism
No that's what you're talking about. That's your bias.

I'm talking about specific incidents which were intentionally misreported.

How many white people live in the oakland neighborhoods where these shootings took place? How many were shot during the commission of a crime? How many were gang members and/or drug dealers? What were the conditions of each specific incident?

Your statistics are meaningless but simple and inflammatory enough to convince dimwits to burn neighborhoods.

Another sad fact is that if the incidents I related had happened at another time, they would have been reported accurately and the consensus would have been entirely different.

Re Michael brown, during the trial the 6 witnesses who all corroborated the officers testimony were all black. The remaining accounts were obvious nonsense.
https://en.wikipe...el_Brown
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (11) Mar 25, 2016
Otto
Well your gullibility is a little staggering
Not gullible at all Otto. Listing specific incidents shows your bias. We are talking about institutionalized racism - which is an issue -
In Oakland, California, the NAACP reported that out of 45 officer-involved shootings in the city between 2004 and 2008, 37 of those shot were black. None were white. One-third of the shootings resulted in fatalities. Although weapons were not found in 40 percent of cases, the NAACP found, no officers were charged


What do you know about those cops mentality? Are you a psychologist? Have you met them? Do you know what they were thinking?

That is NOT evidence of "institutionalized racism",.... it is only evidence that more blacks were engaged with police requiring police action, in those cases.

YOU are adding your idiotic interpretation and calling it "institutionalized racism",... to feed the narrative that directly benefits the NAACP.

Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (11) Mar 25, 2016
There is plenty of propaganda and race baiting, which sweeping divisive phrases like "institutionalized racism" summarizes well.
I provided support for my position. As usual - you got nothing. Are you sure you don't want to put me on ignore? You keep promising...


You didn't provide evidence of that moronic phrase at all. You fell for propaganda by a known race baiting organization, NAACP. You only provided more evidence of the high crime rate among blacks, in that particular area. There is probably 90% blacks living there.

Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (11) Mar 25, 2016
You don't know what racism means do you.
Yes I do.


Well clearly you don't. You have accused me of racism multiple times in this thread despite my not having mentioned nor implied anything about intrinsic natures of race here, only facts.

The same race-baiting propaganda that you gullibly fall for wrt "institutionalized racism", has conditioned you to emotionally accuse people of racism at the drop of a hat,... and the above poll only reflects ubiquitous state of this defective mentality.

Is Jesse Jackson a racist, or is he entitled to react to FACTS on account of his survival instincts?....

"There is nothing more painful to me … than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved." - Jackson

Police are even more in the line of fire having to deal with gang mentality, and they are entitled to have natural reactions just as Jesse Jackson is.

Noumenon
2.2 / 5 (10) Mar 25, 2016
How is there still "institutionalized racism" when we just had Eric Holder (black Attorney General) and B. Obama (1st black president) in office for the last seven years? Why didn't Holder prosecute the officer who killed Brown? Why haven't they uncovered this vast conspiracy? Maybe their in on it?

Answer: It's a fraud of the grievance and perpetual victim industry.

greenonions
3.3 / 5 (7) Mar 25, 2016
Otto
No that's what you're talking about. That's your bias.
You are correct - that is what I am talking about - and also what today's article is addressing.

Your statistics are meaningless but simple and inflammatory enough to convince dimwits to burn neighborhoods.
No less meaningless that your unsupported assertions. Calling people names accomplishes nothing. There is a great deal of evidence supporting the assertion that one of the problems facing the black community in the U.S. is institutionalized racism. I provided you just the beginning of support for that premise. You don't have to agree with the data - any more than denialists have to agree that the climate is warming. Puts you in the same category in terms of being so full of your own opinion - and not too interested in the data.
barakn
2.2 / 5 (10) Mar 25, 2016
How is there still "institutionalized racism" when we just had Eric Holder (black Attorney General) and B. Obama (1st black president) in office for the last seven years? ...Why haven't they uncovered this vast conspiracy? Maybe their in on it? -Noumenon
The vast conspiracy started before Obama entered office when the Republicans swore an unprecedented oath to obstruct the President at every move. "If he was for it, we had to be against it." -Ohio Senator George Voinovich. This plan was hatched out of the racism of the Republican leadership and its supporters with the goal of teaching America to never vote in another black president. The President is still a victim of institutionalized racism. You're going to deny this, of course, but everyone knows it's true. And it's "they're," not "their."
greenonions
3.3 / 5 (7) Mar 25, 2016
Noumenon - I have just read your 4 last posts. Not one reference in the any of them. You ask this question
How is there still "institutionalized racism" when we just had Eric Holder (black Attorney General) and B. Obama (1st black president) in office for the last seven years?
I am assuming from this question that you are asserting that there is not institutionalized racism. Look at this report (this is called supporting evidence). http://www.pewsoc...spanics/ From the report - "The median wealth of white households is 20 times that of black households and 18 times that of Hispanic households" "These lopsided wealth ratios are the largest since the government began publishing such data " So let me ask you a question. If there is no institutionalized racism - can you explain these social disparities? (with support of course)
greenonions
3.9 / 5 (7) Mar 25, 2016
An example of institutionalized racism
when looking at the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence, which demonstrates that 50 years after the apex of the civil rights movement racial bias in employment remains an emphatic reality


From - https://www.shrm....ity.aspx
Da Schneib
3.3 / 5 (7) Mar 25, 2016
Da Schneib - nice reasoned set of posts - thanks.


Not so much, as he interjected economic factors in order to obfuscate
I would argue that anyone who ignores economic factors is obfuscating. I think it's pretty self-evident. And pretty disgusting.
Da Schneib
3 / 5 (6) Mar 25, 2016
It is the racism of selective lowered expectations that motivates one to offer excuses
B.S. Period.

How about we come and take all your money, then see how you behave? Do you like that idea? If not, how come you whine when black people don't like it either?

Another whiny destroyative.
barakn
2.3 / 5 (9) Mar 26, 2016
You have accused me of racism multiple times in this thread despite my not having mentioned nor implied anything about intrinsic natures of race here, only facts.... I posted stats from a report directly from the U.S. Department of Justice. You can't get more unbiased than that....

Page 11; In 2008, the homicide rate for blacks was 7 times higher than the rate for whites. -Noumenon
Facts are frequently used by racists and betray their bias. The full quote is "In 2008, the offending rate for blacks (24.7 offenders per 100,000) was 7 times higher than the rate for whites (3.4 offenders per 100,000)." That's how the racist presents the numbers because he wants to induce fear. The non-racist way to read the numbers is that (100,000-24.7)/100,000 * 100 = 99.9753% of blacks and 99.9966% of whites did not murder anyone that year. The overwhelming majority of people, regardless of color, are good people and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.
Osiris1
2 / 5 (4) Mar 26, 2016
"Mark Twain" wrote once about this. Describes bigoted cop thoughts referencing statistics to badly rationalize their profiling and discrimination: "There are lies! Damn lies! And then there are 'statistics'!"!
Personally I would marry that beautiful woman in that picture at the top. She would be real nice to wake up with every morning. And I am caucasian.
Noumenon
2.8 / 5 (9) Mar 26, 2016
Da Schneib - nice reasoned set of posts - thanks.

Not so much, as he interjected economic factors in order to obfuscate the present discussion,... which was about police reaction to high crime areas and profile. [.....] The Police are not reacting to the fact that 'economically blacks are disadvantaged',

I would argue that anyone who ignores economic factors is obfuscating. I think it's pretty self-evident. And pretty disgusting.


"If one wants to investigate WHY there is disproportionately high violent crime rate among blacks, THEN DaSchieb's analysis would be appropriate and factual to that question" - Noumenon

Obviously, the police are not ruminating about the black economic plight nor their oppressed history in real-time as they operate,... the police immediate reactions( and possibly bigotry) are to factual experience backed by stats. This is why your comment was obfuscating.

Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (10) Mar 26, 2016
This plan was hatched out of the racism of the Republican leadership and its supporters with the goal of teaching America to never vote in another black president.


Conspiracy gibberish. There are plenty of black republican's who could be elected as president you dingbat.... Cain, Rice, Carson, Keyes, Powell, Steele, Thomas, West, etc..... I recall wanting Keyes.

Historically it was the democrats who were the racists. They just had a former KKK member as a sitting congressman for decades. Now they use "racism" is a weapon.

The President is still a victim of institutionalized racism. You're going to deny this, of course, but everyone knows it's true.


He would not have been elected twice as president had there been "institutionalized racism". And why did he not solve that problem or even make it an issue?

Noumenon
2.8 / 5 (9) Mar 26, 2016
The vast conspiracy started before Obama entered office when the Republicans swore an unprecedented oath to obstruct the President at every move.


Could it be that the Republicans/Conservatives disagree with a very liberal president? Instead of drawling the obvious and rational conclusion, you knee-jerk into ad hominems because you were spoon fed racially divisive propaganda by the intellectually corrupt left.

Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (10) Mar 26, 2016
"The median wealth of white households is 20 times that of black households and 18 times that of Hispanic households" "These lopsided wealth ratios are the largest since the government began publishing such data " So let me ask you a question. If there is no institutionalized racism - can you explain these social disparities?


That fact is on account of the history of the country, with generations of blacks being oppressed and considered second class citizens, and thus economically disadvantaged. I just confirmed this above. It is in part an effect of Historical institutionalized racism as late as the 1960's.

NOW, in 2016,... slinging the phrase "institutionalized racism" in a PRESENT sense is a meaningless fraud. Much of the problems that blacks have NOW, are self-inflicted on account of their destructive subculture. There is nothing in society at present holding them down or causing their high crime rate,... except their own subculture.

Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (10) Mar 26, 2016
You have accused me of racism multiple times in this thread despite my not having mentioned nor implied anything about intrinsic natures of race here, only facts.... I posted stats from a report directly from the U.S. Department of Justice. You can't get more unbiased than that....

Page 11; In 2008, the homicide rate for blacks was 7 times higher than the rate for whites. -Noumenon


Facts are frequently used by racists and betray their bias. The full quote is "In 2008, the offending rate for blacks (24.7 offenders per 100,000) was 7 times higher than the rate for whites (3.4 offenders per 100,000)."

99.9753% of blacks and 99.9966% of whites did not murder anyone that year.


The U.S. Department of Justice report wasn't about how many DIDN'T murder anyone, you bonehead. Most people don't murder others obviously.

Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (10) Mar 26, 2016
Why didn't the first black president make "institutionalized racism" a major focus of his term in office?

Where was black attorney Eric Holder in attacking "institutionalized racism"?

Seven years is a long time to not have been loud about it.

The fact is, the grievance industry and the perpetual victim industry do not want racism to do away. They're so desperate for its continued existence which sustains them, that they will not even stop short of inventing it, and further generalizing it and diluting the term "racism" so much that its application extends as far as possible.

Da Schneib
3 / 5 (4) Mar 26, 2016
What's a "grievance industry?"

Just askin'. This sounds a lot like these fabled "conspiracies of climut sciencetis" the global warming deniers are always bringing up.
greenonions
3.7 / 5 (6) Mar 26, 2016
Noumenon
NOW, in 2016,... slinging the phrase "institutionalized racism" in a PRESENT sense is a meaningless fraud
Just because Noumenon says so? I provided support in the form of research papers that show this to be a false statement. My experience supports this position. Notice that Noumenon provides no support for assertions - just personal opinion.
Why didn't the first black president make "institutionalized racism" a major focus of his term in office?
President Obama has spoken a great deal on the subject. He has also received criticism from some in the civil rights community for not doing so http://www.theatl.../273200/
Noumenon
2.8 / 5 (9) Mar 26, 2016
NOW, in 2016,... slinging the phrase "institutionalized racism" in a PRESENT sense is a meaningless fraud


Just because Noumenon says so? I provided support in the form of research papers that show this to be a false statement


You provided propaganda which already had the conclusion before they wrapped the research around it.

People who think.... 'because more blacks are in prison than whites'..... this must mean.... 'the justice system and police are racist'..... are not being honest with themselves and are easily taken in by such racially divisive propaganda. Their willingness to jump so far for that conclusion, exposes their real motive.

In that example, there are REASONS for that being true. I have given some above. More police called to high crime areas, leads to more opportunities for police error and proper arrest.

Noumenon
2.8 / 5 (9) Mar 26, 2016
Why didn't the first black president make "institutionalized racism" a major focus of his term in office?


President Obama has spoken a great deal on the subject. He has also received criticism from some in the civil rights community for not doing so


Well I mean, IF,.... IF,..... "institutionalized racism" or "systemic racism" were REAL in American society, then one would expect the FIRST black president and the FIRST black attorney general, to make a MAJOR and landmark civil rights issue out of it. They have not. The reason is because it is vacuous political nothingness.

The fact that black-lives-matter activists based their movement on the fraudulent notion that Brown had his hands in the air before being shot, is very much apropos.

The cop that shot him is not in prison. The FIRST black attorney general could not legally put him there. Do you see when they fail to find real racism they invent it by deflecting into vague "systemic racism".

Noumenon
2.8 / 5 (9) Mar 26, 2016
What's a "grievance industry?"

Just askin'. This sounds a lot like these fabled "conspiracies of climut sciencetis" the global warming deniers are always bringing up.


It's the political leftist industry that takes advantage of people's gullibility, who are easily mislead by correlation studies, and who don't care for detailed facts, for instance those who think that the phrase "gamma decay" means that photos of the correct energy decay to produce electron / positron pairs,.... so that they would also believe that "institutionalized racism" is a real thing.

Btw, I don't disagree with AGW.

greenonions
3.7 / 5 (6) Mar 26, 2016
I have given some above.
No. Nou has given personal opinion - and supported it with nothing. It is interesting how nou feels the need to constantly insert opinion into the issue of race.
so that they would also believe that "institutionalized racism" is a real thing.
I wonder why it is so important to nou to convince the world there is no such thing as institutionalized racism in America.
http://www.usnews...-of-life
http://www.thedai...eal.html
http://racerelati...ates.htm
http://americablo...ers.html
greenonions
3.7 / 5 (6) Mar 26, 2016
Evidence for the existence of structural racism in just one area of American life (education) https://www.ameri...ucation/
So you notice - that despite some very concrete statistics - all nou has is personal opinion - supported by nothing.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (7) Mar 28, 2016
I wonder if your structural (bullshit) statistics include all the incidents which you never read about but which cops see every day?

"Associated Press March 14
SAN BERNARDINO, Calif. — Police appealed to the public Monday for help in finding the killer of a 12-year-old boy who died in a fusillade of bullets as he and his 14-year-old cousin walked to a convenience store in a gang-ridden section of San Bernardino."
greenonions
3.7 / 5 (6) Mar 28, 2016
I wonder if your structural (bullshit) statistics include all the incidents which you never read about but which cops see every day?

Nice scientific response Otto. Why don't you do some research - or maybe come up with some statistics of your own. My last data was regarding the discrepancy in educational spending in America - whites vs minorities. Is that bullshit? Where is your data? I was addressing nou's need to insist there is no structural racism in America. Nou is wrong.
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (10) Mar 28, 2016
I wonder if your structural (bullshit) statistics include all the incidents which you never read about but which cops see every day?

Nice scientific response Otto. Why don't you do some research - or maybe come up with some statistics of your own. My last data was regarding the discrepancy in educational spending in America - whites vs minorities. Is that bullshit? Where is your data? I was addressing nou's need to insist there is no structural racism in America. Nou is wrong.


You still don't understand. I am not debating whether or not there are in fact disparities between whites and blacks in a number of areas.

What I AM disputing, is the conclusions reached,...of "institutionalized racism". There are other reasons as cited by me above, including history.

"Institutionalized racism" is a meaningless and vacuous phrase. The FIRST black president and the FIRST black attorney general have not made it a MAJOR CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE,.... why?
greenonions
3.4 / 5 (5) Mar 28, 2016
Institutionalized racism" is a meaningless and vacuous phrase.
No it is not. I have provided 5 references in just my last 2 posts - that support the understanding that America does have a problem with structural racism. Once again nou provided no support for arguments - just personal opinion - presented as fact. And that personal opinion - is disagreed with by the supreme court - http://www.thedai...eal.html
That's the kind of structural racism that disparate impact reasoning addresses.
(that quote was not from the supreme court - but from a discussion of the supreme court decision). Why can Nou not understand the difference between personal opinion - and supported fact?
greenonions
3.4 / 5 (5) Mar 28, 2016
I am not debating whether or not there are in fact disparities between whites and blacks in a number of areas.
And if one of those areas is in spending on education - and
the best predictor of one's subsequent economic success is one's skill level in eighth grade.
from - http://www.thedai...eal.html One would surely have to ask - how is this not an example of structural racism?
Noumenon
2.8 / 5 (9) Mar 29, 2016
You are not capable of understanding the difference between evidence and interpretation of evidence.

You own link just gave an example of "institutional racism" against whites by your own logic.....

"The Inclusive Communities Project, a nonprofit, noticed that 92 percent of the credits ended up going to mostly non-white neighborhoods. And while about half of the applications in those neighborhoods were approved, the approval rate for mostly white neighborhoods was only 37 percent. The end result? Public housing got built in black neighborhoods, and not in white ones."

Noumenon
2.8 / 5 (9) Mar 29, 2016
There are circumstances never taken into consideration that are in the causes, because it is impossible to do so given the atmosphere of the threat of "racist" charge, that the left has created. They have literally painted themselves into a corner so they can't even address the Actual problems much less solve them.

For example, education is not a top priority in the black subculture. There is a cultural breakdown in the family unit. THAT is the causes,.... and the corrupt left will never address that. Perpetual victims are never responsible for their own self inflicted plight, according to the left.

You only offer other peoples loaded and PC-safe opinions on the matter. "Institutional racism" is a fraud.

greenonions
4 / 5 (4) Mar 29, 2016
You are not capable of understanding the difference between evidence and interpretation of evidence.
Well - I at least present support for my assertions. Once again your responses are void of any support - just personal opinion.
education is not a top priority in the black subculture. There is a cultural breakdown in the family unit. THAT is the causes,.... and the corrupt left will never address that. Perpetual victims are never responsible for their own self inflicted plight, according to the left
Wow - so much racism in that one sentence - so much to unpack. Notice the level of assertion in your response - and yet not one shred of evidence. But - even if all of your assertions are true (and they may be - you have just supplied no support for such sweeping statements) - they do not negate the possibility of structural racism. I have given you support for the assertion of the existence of structural racism. You are incapable of understanding the point
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Mar 29, 2016
But - even if all of your assertions are true (and they may be


You just asserted that my comment was racist, even despite that you just conceded that they may in fact be true. Do you see now the problem with wraping "evidence" around you preconceived narrative.

greenonions
4 / 5 (4) Mar 29, 2016
You just asserted that my comment was racist, even despite that you just conceded that they may in fact be true
That is correct - because you have made assertions (that may or may NOT be true) - but you have not provided any support for your assertions. Your assertions perpetuate negative stereotypes - and you provide no support. How many times does someone have to tell you - that when you are making assertions about whole groups of people - you need to know what you are talking about? That means providing support. Yes - you are a racist.
kochevnik
4 / 5 (4) Mar 29, 2016
In Richmond USA now black thugs are paid $1000 to not kill

PC logic: "But what's really happening is that they are getting rewarded for doing really hard work, and it's definite hard work when you talk about stopping picking up a gun to solve your problems."
Noumenon
3 / 5 (8) Mar 29, 2016
You just asserted that my comment was racist, even despite that you just conceded that they may in fact be true
That is correct - because you have made assertions (that may or may NOT be true) - but you have not provided any support for your assertions.


So, i'm a racist by default? That is the same gibberish logic one uses in accepting "structure racism".
HERE are the stats. Are you going to apologize?
Noumenon
3 / 5 (8) Mar 29, 2016
Your assertions perpetuate negative stereotypes - and you provide no support. How many times does someone have to tell you - that when you are making assertions about whole groups of people - you need to know what you are talking about?


I provided official reports above wrt violent crime rates,.... for which attracts interaction with cops.

I thought my above statement was common knowledge. So what I'm gathering is is that you were unaware of the crisis level breakdown of the family unit (73% out of wedlock!!, 67% single parents!!!), in the black community. Maybe you should research basic cause and effect facts before swallowing hook-line-and-sinker, the propaganda spoon fed you by the perpetual-victim industry.

TheGhostofOtto1923
4.4 / 5 (7) Mar 29, 2016
My last data was regarding the discrepancy in educational spending in America - whites vs minorities. Is that bullshit?
Even if true what does that have to do with structural/institutional/racist violence?

I could provide statistics which say that minorities consume more sugary drinks, and are much fatter, than whites and then conclude that their gummed-up brains are the cause of bad judgement, compulsive behavior, and resulting violence.

And that conclusion would be just as valid as yours.
greenonions
3.4 / 5 (5) Mar 29, 2016
I provided official reports above wrt violent crime rates
You have repeatedly argued that there is no structural racism in the U.S. That is the core of this whole debate at this point. You have provided NO support for that assertion. Statistics showing that blacks engage in more violent crime than whites - does not in any way disprove the assertion that there is structural racism in the U.S. I provided you multiple sources (including the Supreme Court) that disagree with you.
I thought my above statement was common knowledge.
Thinking that something is common knowledge - of course does not relieve you of the responsibility to support your assertion - especially when you are perpetuating negative stereotypes. Again - even if your assertions are correct - they in no way disprove the existence of structural racism. These points are very basic points of science and logic.
greenonions
3.4 / 5 (5) Mar 29, 2016
otto
Even if true what does that have to do with structural/institutional/racist violence?
A great deal. That you would equate government spending on education - with drinking soda shows your level of reasoning. Of course this is an example of structural racism I even provided a quote - that academic performance is the # 1 predictor of success in life. So if we consistently spend less money on the education of one group - than we do the other - we are stacking the deck against that group. Institutional racism....
kochevnik
3 / 5 (4) Mar 29, 2016
It is useless to talk about racism in USA as most of the 'blacks' are mulatto. These mullatos reject actual blacks from Africa and generally keep themselves insulated from larger society. For example in Long Beach, CA the 'blacks' often don't travel further than Los Angeles and even then perhaps yearly. The mulatto in Torrance talk with a Southern drawl despite being three generations removed from the deep South. No these are people that for some reasons are pinned at some low social strata and seem to prefer that lifestyle of government subsidy (payments for bastard babies) and slave-wage jobs. Africans often leave the area or form enclaves in much better neighborhoods such as the Ethiopians in Culver City. One does not see much African crime among the million dollar homes
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (5) Mar 29, 2016
a great deal
Again, merely stating something doesn't make it so.

In contrast, refined sugar had been implicated in ADHD and neurological damage in fetuses and develowing brains. Obesity and sedentarism have been tied to substandard intellects as well as mental and emotional problems which can affect emotional maturity and self control.

Any of this apply to your current state of mind I wonder?
obama_socks
2 / 5 (4) Mar 29, 2016
I see nothing wrong with the way Noumenon presented the facts of the matter.
Of course you don't. And your response to a situation in which there is conflict between law enforcement and the black community - is to suggest withdrawing law enforcement from neighborhoods that are predominantly black. Because the "thugs" that live there, are not real humans. And of course they are ALL thugs, no citizens there who deserve equal rights and protections under the constitution.


sox
So, you don't think that the thugs who live there aren't "real" humans, eh? I didn't say it, YOU did.
I was using sarcasm. Learn to read the whole post - and understand the intent. I was saying that this is the implication of your post.
- green onions

You have revealed what has been in the back of your mind all the time, in a pretense of sarcasm as an answer to what you have believed to be my opinion. My post implied nothing of what you yourself believed already.
obama_socks
1.8 / 5 (5) Mar 29, 2016
It is useless to talk about racism in USA as most of the 'blacks' are mulatto. These mullatos reject actual blacks from Africa and generally keep themselves insulated from larger society. For example in Long Beach, CA the 'blacks' often don't travel further than Los Angeles and even then perhaps yearly. The mulatto in Torrance talk with a Southern drawl despite being three generations removed from the deep South. No these are people that for some reasons are pinned at some low social strata and seem to prefer that lifestyle of government subsidy (payments for bastard babies) and slave-wage jobs. Africans often leave the area or form enclaves in much better neighborhoods such as the Ethiopians in Culver City. One does not see much African crime among the million dollar homes
- kochevnik
It's refreshing to find someone of a foreign nation/culture who sees the situation in the U.S. in all its reality. Liberals can't differentiate between Africans & Afro-Americans.
greenonions
3.4 / 5 (5) Mar 29, 2016
Otto
Again, merely stating something doesn't make it so.
Which is why I constructed an argument. Sorry you cannot understand something that seems to me pretty straightforward. Let me try again - a little more clearly hopefully. The argument is over the question 'is there structural racism in the U.S.?' I provided numerous references that asserted that there is structural racism. This also mirrors my personal experience - and obviously that of many others - as it is a central part of the black lives matters movement. I also provided data to show that the U.S. consistently spends more money on the education of white students than it does on black students. Being that education is a major determinant of success in life - that is a very clear case of structural racism.
obama_socks
1.8 / 5 (5) Mar 29, 2016
(cont'd)
@kochevnik
As I said, "Liberals can't differentiate between Africans & Afro-Americans." Liberals only look at skin color and degree of wealth, as well as a potential voting bloc that could provide the preferred election results to keep the Liberal-Socialist ruling elites in power for as long as they have control of the Black communities and their leadership. This has always been the Modus Operandi of those who understand the process/methods and favorable outcome of Eugenics to reduce certain populations while giving that population the means of its own self-destruction.
Affirmative Action, Social programs such as welfare, Medicaid, cheap housing, etc., bussing Black children to majority White schools/neighborhoods, even offering free cell phones...these are ongoing since the 1960s. Over 40 years of expectations that should have IMPROVED the Black communities and help Black kids to grow and develop their innate potential. After all that, who is to blame for its failures?
obama_socks
1.8 / 5 (5) Mar 29, 2016
(cont'd)
@kochevnik
The "structural racism" that green onions is flapping about does NOT exist in the hearts of the majority of White, Asian and Hispanic Americans. When it does rear its ugly head it is most often a result in those who have mental issues regarding humanity in general, i.e. social misfits. There are social misfits of every race, creed and color. They even occur in Judaism.
However, the slow process of Eugenics encourages the raising of Social Misfits in Black communities, with the result of good and innocent Black folk being ravaged and murdered by those of their own race. Why does this happen? Is it Black Rage/Structural Racism? When White Social Misfits murder and ravage other White people, is that White Rage?
If a Black cop kills a White person, is that a form of "structural racism" against Whites? That has happened, though infrequently. Black cops have killed INNOCENT White people. Is that categorized as "structural racism" against innocent Whites?
obama_socks
1.8 / 5 (5) Mar 29, 2016
sox
I gave the opinion that if Black citizens don't want protection from the cops, then get rid of the cops. It's easy enough.
Black Lives Matter is not saying they don't want protection from the police. They are saying they don't want to be treated differently by the police. That you don't understand the fundamental issue of the debate - is staggering. Then there is also the other issue I was raising. If you withdraw the police from the high crime communities (as you suggest) - there are of course thousands of people living in these communities - many may be white. You are proposing allowing totally chaotic war zones - where innocent people are unprotected. I already pointed out the problem this causes from a constitutional stand point. You are seem not capable of reading.
-go
It is then up to those "thousands" to explain to BLM their need of cops to patrol their communities. It is also up to them to help prevent their young becoming thugs at all.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (4) Mar 29, 2016
"Black Lives Matter is not saying they don't want protection from the police. They are saying they don't want to be treated differently by the police." - green onions

1) You appear to be confused. On the one hand you say that Blacks aren't SAYING that they don't want police protection (a civil right), BUT OTOH, they feel that they're being treated differently from all others by the cops. In a Black community where the vast majority ARE BLACK, (as someone else had pointed out in this thread), if a THUG (who just happens to be Black in a Black community) is suspected of robbing a store, or committing bodily harm to someone, or otherwise breaking the Law, would it be better for the cop(s) to seek out an old white-haired Irish grandmother to question and suspect her of being a thug who committed such crimes? Perhaps you would prefer that the cop allow the thug to run and instead chase down a nun or priest for the crimes committed by the thug whose skin color is identified as Black?
obama_socks
1.8 / 5 (5) Mar 29, 2016
"Black Lives Matter is not saying they don't want protection from the police. They are saying they don't want to be treated differently by the police." - green onions

2) If a Black grandmother who lives in a Black community is fearful for her life and limb because a thug is about to gain entrance into her home and she has frantically called the police to save her... when the police arrive and catch the thug (who happens to be Black) about to cut her with a knife or shoot her with a gun, or trying to kill her with a hammer - will BLACK LIVES MATTER suddenly pop up with their signs to prevent the cop from shooting the thug?

Does BLM favor thugs over the innocent people because of their color and RACE?

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY, THEN DON'T BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY. If you behave as a thug with criminal intent, then don't expect to be treated as a normal person.
BLM appears to advocate for the protection of THUGS from the Law...rather than grandmothers from thugs.
obama_socks
1.8 / 5 (5) Mar 29, 2016
"...that asserted that there is structural racism. This also mirrors my personal experience (...)as it is a central part of the black lives matters movement. I also provided data to show that the U.S. consistently spends more money on the education of white students than it does on black students." - greenonions

Total bullshit. ALL American children receive the SAME educational opportunities that are available in their communities. In Black communities, the school Boards are mostly made up of Black educators and administrators who are responsible for the allocation of moneys to the various schools. What happens to that money paid for by taxpayers is the responsibility of Board members, teachers and school admins. Black kids are often motivated to NOT excel in their education by PEER PRESSURE, gang influence, learning devaluation, & outside attractions. Sexual attraction and resulting pregnancy discourages the learning processes. Bad parenting also. IT'S THE CULTURE, dopey.
Da Schneib
5 / 5 (4) Mar 29, 2016
@greenonions, I apologize for the fact that there are people in my country who are not only racists, for which I do not apologize, but who defend racism, for which I apologize. I personally do everything I can to both discredit them and convince them they are wrong, but they are set in their ways and immunized against evidence.

I see them as little different than climate deniers, Babble thumpers, or EU proponents. They insist on their delusions, because to admit they were deluded would be to take on personal responsibility that they think they can escape. They are cowards, and I am ashamed that they are allowed to continue their antics in my country.
Da Schneib
5 / 5 (2) Mar 29, 2016
It is proof of my wisdom in choosing who to add to my ignore list that I have not seen any of the so-called "arguments" that purport to "prove" that there is no institutionalized racism in the US, except as they were quoted in the comments of those arguing against them.

Shunning is the best way to deal with this. Let the shunned talk among themselves; it is no more than the wittering of a flock of birds or monkeys.

The facts are clear: black people are subject to racism that is supported by the institutions, educational, legal, and societal, of US society. Until we admit and address these sources of racism we will continue to have major problems in race relations. It will be painful and many people will have to admit unwitting complacency and even unwitting reinforcement, but we will not be a fair society until we do it.

And I am embarrassed by it. Anyone who is not is in denial. Luckily denial is not the last phase of grief.
greenonions
5 / 5 (2) Mar 29, 2016
Da Schneib
but they are set in their ways and immunized against evidence.
Thanks Da Schneib. No need to apologize - I think it is a fact of life - any where in the world - that there are those who are immune to evidence. Obviously the comments section of a web site is pretty irrelevant - and tmrw we will be exchanging barbs about something else - and many will have changed screen names. I was watching the white supremacist rally in Belgium over the weekend - and wondering how one should respond to knowing that we share the world with some very hateful people. Not saying that all other posters are like the supremacists, but someone like obamasocks certainly is. On other threads - sox is calling the President gay, and using hateful language towards women. So you are right - some have to be ignored - some you perhaps try to have an exchange with - and then maybe you go play in your garden.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (4) Mar 30, 2016
I provided numerous references that asserted that there is structural racism
You havent shown that violence is caused by lack of education nor have you provided any expert references that do.
This also mirrors my personal experience
Anecdotal evidence by anonymous posters is worse than useless.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (7) Mar 30, 2016
@greenonions,… you can't simply cite various disparities between whites and blacks, to substantiate "institutional racism",… nor merely the "opinion" of other liberals who wrap evidence around their giant-ball-of-string narrative,…. you must cite how those social and political institutions get away with racial discrimination despite that it is illegal, and despite the first black president and the first black attorney general in office for the prior seven years.

The myth of "institutional racism" (or "systemic racism" or "structural racism") is deliberately vaguely defined so that it is only necessary to substantiate it based on the existence of racial disparities. This is to tacitly ignore actual cause and effect, as I have enumerated above. It is a political ploy of recent manufacture, to game the system and to perpetuate racial divisiveness for political gain.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (7) Mar 30, 2016
Here are some references....

http://downtrend....minality

I suggest reading Thomas Sowell in an unbiased and self-honest manner, ….

http://www.nation...s-sowell

http://downtrend....-slavery
greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Mar 30, 2016
Otto
You havent shown that violence is caused by lack of education nor have you provided any expert references that do.
correct - as I never made that assertion. The debate is regarding the existence of structural racism in the U.S. I provided support for that assertion. Stop changing the subject.
greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Mar 30, 2016
Nou
you can't simply cite various disparities between whites and blacks, to substantiate "institutional racism",
Not what I have done. Nou - this is not hard. When you have a state run school system, and that school system consistently spends more money on educating white students than it does on black students - and educational achievement is a major predictor of success in life - you have a clear example of structural racism.
greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Mar 30, 2016
I suggest reading Thomas Sowell in an unbiased and self-honest manner, ….
I read it. It says nothing about the reality of institutional racism in the U.S. Have you read any Chomsky, or Zinn? There is a difference between an opinion piece in a right wing news site - and actually reading a history book - with extensive sourcing.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (7) Mar 31, 2016
A history book? I already acknowledged it in US history above. The Jim Crow laws were a southern democrat thing. We're talking about "institutionalized racism" today. That phrase was not invented until like 1995.

And yes, Thomas Sowell does talk about the causes that are fraudulently cited as "institutionalized racism", and he is a black intellectual and is not the only one.

One would think that had the first black president and the first black attorney general, the opportunity to attach to their legacy a major civil rights movement, they would have done so,.... certainly if there was actual "INSTITUTIONALIZED" or "STRUCTURAL" or "SYSTEMATIC" racism.

Of course they can't because that phrase is not actionable as it is vacuous and a myth. It reminds me of the "occupy wall street" movement,... loud, but without a coherent and substantive point.

greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Mar 31, 2016
And yes, Thomas Sowell does talk about the causes that are fraudulently cited as "institutionalized racism", and he is a black intellectual and is not the only one.
You can't even read. Neither of the articles you cited - disproves in any way the existence of structural racism in America. Just because he is a "Black Intellectual" - does not make him right. You constantly make assertions - and don't understand the issue of needing to support your assertions. Cornell West is also a Black Intellectual - I will post a quote from him.
greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Mar 31, 2016
My aim is not to provide excuses for black behavior or to absolve blacks of personal responsibility. But when the new black conservatives accent black behavior and responsibility in such a way that the cultural realities of black people are ignored, they are playing a deceptive and dangerous intellectual game with the lives and fortunes of disadvantaged people. We indeed must criticize and condemn immoral acts of black people, but we must do so cognizant of the circumstances into which people are born and under which they live. By overlooking these circumstances, the new black conservatives fall into the trap of blaming black poor people for their predicament.
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Mar 31, 2016
When generations of black youth are repeatedly told that the system itself is racist and stacked against them, that they can't make it because American culture is "white" culture, that they are perpetual victims,.... they're playing a deceptive and dangerous intellectual game with the lives and fortunes of people,.... because it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

The "new black conservative" is simply exposing the political fraud of the racial grievance industry obfuscating what is plainly self-inflicted cultural problems perpetuating the racial plight.

Rejection of "institutionalized racism" in 2016 as a core problem, is not incompatible with acknowledgement of historical institutionalized racism,... and it is disingenuous to suggest that black conservatives would somehow not acknowledge historical racism. That comment is only meant to obscure the point made by black conservatives.

Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Mar 31, 2016
Neither of the articles you cited - disproves in any way the existence of structural racism in America.


You seriously expect me to prove a negative? I gave you the conditions for proving the positive,... that there is "institutionalized racism".

Just because he is a "Black Intellectual" - does not make him right.


Neither does citing the opinion of a liberal sitting on the bench, or leftist research "studies" obviously designed to wrap "evidence" around an a-priori racially divisive narrative, nor listing racial disparages as they could be caused by other reasons.

The problem is separatist anti-white-society, perpetual victimhood, breakdown of the family unit , disproportionately high violent crime rate, welfare state, glorification of gang mentality, education as low priority, etc

greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Mar 31, 2016
You seriously expect me to prove a negative?
Yes. When you make an assertion - it is your responsibility to support that assertion - otherwise it is just personal opinion - and of no worth on a science site.

The problem is separatist anti-white-society, perpetual victimhood, breakdown of the family unit , disproportionately high violent crime rate, welfare state, glorification of gang mentality, education as low priority, etc.


Complete gibberish - and as usual - with no support. You seem incapable of understanding a very basic call to not turn personal opinion into fact - and on a science site - it makes you look like a blabbering idiot.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (7) Apr 01, 2016
I've provided stats. Your only retort is to charge "racist",.... which is to dilute the significance of that term, and so effectively disrespects that people had suffered from actual quantifiable racism.

Your "institutionalized racism" is ethereal and mythological, and not even quantifiable enough so that the first black president and the first black attorney general, both in power for seven years, could make a major civil rights issue out of it.

greenonions
5 / 5 (2) Apr 01, 2016
I've provided stats
your stats in no way supported your repeated assertion regarding structural racism in the U.S. I find it interesting that I keep repeating the same point over and over - and you seem not interested in understanding. You then post a bunch of gibberish - without any support. Here is an example -
The problem is separatist anti-white-society, perpetual victimhood, breakdown of the family unit , disproportionately high violent crime rate, welfare state, glorification of gang mentality, education as low priority, etc.
Total gibberish - and yes racist - as you are making assertions about a whole race of people - and providing no support for those assertions.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (7) Apr 02, 2016
The problem is separatist anti-white-society, perpetual victimhood, breakdown of the family unit , disproportionately high violent crime rate, welfare state, glorification of gang mentality, education as low priority, etc.
Total gibberish - and yes racist - as you are making assertions about a whole race of people - and providing no support for those assertions.


No where did I make statements about a whole race of people.

Let's review, because I understand it's difficult for a liberal victimized by racially divisive propaganda to follow a thread of logic especially when (s)he seems more interested in tossing the "racists" accusation around as an ad hominem.....

Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (7) Apr 02, 2016
-you maintain that "institutionalized racism" exists, and cite racial disparities as indicative.

-I counter by suggesting that those disparities, which are real, are not caused by present "institutionalized racism" but rather in part on account of personal behavior, in part by generations of perpetual victimization propaganda, in part on account of historical racism.

-I provided statistics in particular that show the breakdown of the family unit, and the disproportionate high violent crime rate, ... to show an alternative explanation of the disparities you cited.

-I provided references to black intellectuals who agree with me. In addition posed the obvious question you have still not answered about why Holder and Obama have not made "institutionalized racism" a loud landmark civil rights issue.

-No where did I say anything about an entire race of people, but only offered counter reasons for the disparities that you cited and the above article cited.

greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 02, 2016
No where did I make statements about a whole race of people.
This whole article and debate is about "Police view blacks..." This whole debate is about the relations between the black community (a race of people), and the police. You say "The problem is separatist anti-white-society" What problem are you talking about? If you don't even understand the core of the whole discussion - it is pointless having a discussion.
greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 02, 2016
you maintain that "institutionalized racism" exists, and cite racial disparities as indicative.
No - liar. I cited as just one example - the way our educational system spends more money on educating white kids - than it does black kids. That is NOT citing racial disparities - it is giving you a clear example of structural racism. You ignore the point because it is clear, and unambiguous - and then you launch into your gibberish
The problem is separatist anti-white-society, perpetual victimhood, breakdown of the family unit , disproportionately high violent crime rate, welfare state, glorification of gang mentality, education as low priority, etc.
All of course with no supporting evidence. Do you understand that last point? All of course with no supporting evidence.
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 02, 2016
You can repeat your lies all you want, but it won't effect the fact that I have provides statistics and reference links in this thread, from the U.S. Department of Justice AND the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

What you have done is to post a disparity and then immediately JUMP to the conclusion of "institutionalized racism",... without considering other more rational causes.

Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (7) Apr 02, 2016
the way our educational system spends more money on educating white kids - than it does black kids.


That is a lie. It is NOT the result of deliberate policy concerning race,... it is the result of particular causal circumstances. Only the former would justify invoking the charge of "racism", NOT the later.

The egregious fact that you don't even seem curious as to WHY that is exposes your singular desire to maintain an already preconceived narrative,.... "institutionalized racism".

It is only true wrt local gov funding. And WHY is this so? Well, local districts fund schools from property taxes. They can get more such money from areas of higher property values. Local communities fund their own schools....

This entirely non-race motivated restriction is not an element in federal funding, and indeed there is no such disparity of spending at the federal level.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (7) Apr 02, 2016
Every disparity that you can cite to substantiate the use of the word "racism" as institutionalized or structural, have causal explanations that are unrelated to racial motivated policy.

The intellectually corrupt political left are mining for these social statistics in order to insinuate the existence of racism, and to generalize the charge to encompass as many as possible. It is political fraud of the highest order. This abjectly fraudulent narrative is independent of causal facts.

greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 03, 2016
I have provides statistics and reference links in this thread, from the U.S. Department of Justice AND the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
Your link - in no way disproves the existence of structural racism in America - which is your assertion - and you have not supported it.
Every disparity
I am not basing my argument on the existence of simple disparity. I keep telling you the same thing over and over. I am basing my argument on the existence of a system - that is a high determinant of success in life. In that system we consistently spend more money on whites that we do on blacks - A very clear example of structural racism.
The intellectually corrupt political left are mining for these social statistics in order to insinuate the existence of racism, and to generalize the charge to encompass as many as possible. It is political fraud of the highest order. This abjectly fraudulent narrative is independent of causal facts.
More word salad.
greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 03, 2016
it is the result of particular causal circumstances. Only the former would justify invoking the charge of "racism", NOT the later.
Says who? Where is your support? A system that disadvantages and already disadvantaged group of people - is not a n example of structural racism? Just because you say it - does not make it true - especially as you provide no support. Here read
This gap also has to do with the structural and institutional racism that is deeply embedded within our public education system
From - https://www.minnp...l-racism Speaking in word salad - without providing any support - makes you look stupid.
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 03, 2016
It is NOT the result of deliberate policy concerning race,... it is the result of particular causal circumstances. Only the former would justify invoking the charge of "racism", NOT the later.
Says who? Where is your support? A system that disadvantages and already disadvantaged group of people - is not a n example of structural racism?


NO, absolutely NOT,.... because it is not DELIBERATELY targeting a race of people. That is the de facto condition for invoking the word "racism",.... not because Noumenon says so, but because of the words definition.

Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 03, 2016
"RACISM definition :

- the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

- prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

Nieher of these conditions are met in any of the examples for "institutionalized racism" in 2016 that you have cited.

Racially divisive liberals who toss that fraudulent phrase around, are NOT entitled to manufacture a new meaning for the term 'racism',... because it is conditioned upon common knowledge of its meaning, which implies historically and presently.... 'directed effort based on race',... conscious "prejudice" and "discrimination" based on race,.... belief of "inferiority" based on race.

Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 03, 2016
"This gap also has to do with the structural and institutional racism that is deeply embedded within our public education system "
From - [....] Speaking in word salad - without providing any support - makes you look stupid.


I never claimed that no one else ever used the phrase "institutionalized racism",... so referencing other idiots using that phrase does not disprove anything I said.

You can say 'institutional circumstantial disparities' or 'causal disparities',.... or any number of ways to express this,... but once you append the word 'racism' you are implying victimhood at the hands of directed and conscious policy ,.... which is factually wrong and racially divisive.

The "affirmative action" program evolved away from being rational and good to being actual institutionalized racism, because it actively discriminates based on race. It is banned in many states for THIS reason, and in England, I believe.

greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 03, 2016
Racism definition - http://www.merria...y/racism Nou - you argue like a 5 year old.
so referencing other idiots using that phrase does not disprove anything I said.
So when you say something it is the truth - because you said it. When someone else says something - they are an idiot. Despite the fact that you never provide support for you assertions. This is a science site. Science asks for evidence. Here is one article - which would lead any one interested to find mountains of evidence to support the assertion that there is structural racism in the U.S. http://www.usnews...-of-life Oh - I forgot - Nou said it was not so (without any support) - so all that evidence must be made up or something.......
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 03, 2016
Your own reference of the definition of 'racism' only supports my point. Notice in that definition the condition of "racial discrimination" and "poor treatment BECAUSE of race". The implies a specific motivation,..... which is lacking in what is fraudulently called "institutionalized racism", which is based not upon deliberate racial discrimination but only upon causal circumstances unrelated to any motivation of racism.

If you can't understand the distinction I'm making here and why that phrase is fraudulently designed to imply victimization at the hands of invented racial discrimination , then you're a lost cause who is vulnerable to all manner of left-wing propaganda. And the fact that you calld me a "racist" multiple times irrationally here, shows that you have already been "conditioned" by that propaganda.

Try thinking for yourself.

greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 04, 2016
poor treatment BECAUSE of race
So if you spend more money on a white kids education - than you do a black kids education - and education is a major predictor of success in life - that is obviously a case of "poor treatment BECAUSE of race." Of coure teasing out the complexity of the situation would require a great deal of research (which has been done - and you are not interested in educating yourself). Black kids are poorer than white kids - and attend schools that have less resources. This none the less - is a clear example of differential treatement - based on RACE (or structural racism). Understand - this is just one example of many regarding structural racism in America - and the references I have given provide multiple entry points into understanding this reality - if you were interested. Obviously you are not.
Try thinking for yourself.
I do. Try learning about the world you live in - from a non ideological bias, You are a racist.
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 04, 2016
So if you spend more money on a white kids education - than you do a black kids education


Stop right there. Show me where more money is spent on whites then blacks, as a concerted effort BECAUSE OF RACE,... as that is the necessary condition for "racism" to exist. No one is making conscious decisions to do that,.... therefore there is no racist motivation.

That statistic is mined after the fact, and in no way is it indicative of causation.

You have a very unscientific mind as you don't appear to understand evidence, correlation, and causation,.... indeed propaganda hinges on the existence of ignorance . And repeatedly calling me a racist is to contribute to racial divisiveness just as the phrase "institutionalized racism" is designed to do.

End.
greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 04, 2016
Institutional racism refers to the policies and practices within and across institutions that, intentionally or not, produce outcomes that chronically favor, or put a racial group at a disadvantage.
From - http://www.aspeni...sary.pdf Did you notice the words "intentional or not?" There are plenty of other definitions that make the same point - just learn to use google.
You have a very unscientific mind
You are the one making assertions without any support - and making shit up on the fly (structural racism requires intentionality).
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 04, 2016
You don't even understand the senselessness of referencing what is claimed by "institutionalized racism" when THATS WHATS UNDER CONTENTION here.

The debate isn't whether other people have ever used that phrase or whether anyone else thinks its a thing,..... but whether it is valid.

greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 04, 2016
THATS WHATS UNDER CONTENTION here.
I do understand that. On March 25th you said this
This present notion of "systemic racism" is an abject fraud, propagandized to perpetuate the victim industry.
You reinforced your opinion that the notion of systemic racism being a 'fraud' multiple times. But it is not a fraud. It is a very real and problematic issue - that we must address - if we are ever to really grow up as a species.
but whether it is valid.
It is valid. There is mountains of research out there to support this reality. I referenced plenty of links that could start on a path of learning about the experience of the black community in America - that you could pursue - if you were interested in understanding - rather than forcing your own opinion onto the issue. Seems to be a very common characteristic of racists.

Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 04, 2016
Obviously you are having a problem with comprehension or are intentionally dishonest. I'm NOT debating whether or not there exist racial disparities, as that is plainly factual !!!!

I'm objecting to the notion that those disparities exist on account of "institutionalized racism" or "systemic racism",... as the word "racism" implies intent of thought or action in treating or belief of a particular race in ill manner. My mailbox can't be racist. Casual circumstances leading to disparities can't themselves be racist,... because there is no intent.

99.99% of people upon hearing the word "racist" will immediately understand the word as implying a belief and intent to discriminate,..... but yet the stated definition of "institutionalized racism" by your own admission claims intent is not a condition. THEN IT IS INVALID TO USE THE WORD "RACISM". Obviously it IS used in order to claim victimhood and generalize the meaning of "racism" to encompass even my mailbox.



Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 04, 2016
You cited that more money is spent on education for whites than blacks as an example of "institutionalized racism". I gave you circumstantial reasons why that is the case, ....local property taxes, ....which has NOTHING to do with what 99.99% of people understand as being racism.

greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 04, 2016
which has NOTHING to do with what 99.99% of people understand as being racism.
Ahhh - another metric you just pulled out your ass. How do you know what 99.99% of people understand as being racism.? Where is the study? How many people of color were included in the study? Here - a quick google search on the evidence for systemic racism. Were the authors all included in your study? - or is their no study - and you made up some more rubbish?
http://www.huffin...104.html
http://www.common...e-system
http://www.usnews...-of-life
http://www.patheo...america/
etc. etc. etc.
greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 05, 2016
Obviously it IS used in order to claim victimhood and generalize the meaning of "racism" to encompass even my mailbox.
No it is not. I am not at all interested in victimhood. I am interested in understanding. We cannot improve the way we are organized - unless we understand things. Hence my interest in science. I pay attention to the world I live in. Things are complicated. I see people who are dependent on government programs, and very stuck in cycles of poverty and dependence. I work in a domestic violence group - and the majority of clients are of color. People who spend a lot of time in court, or jail, or probation etc. There a clearly no easy solutions (if any at all). But pulling facts out of my ass - and claiming that I understand such complex dynamics - is not going to help. I understand that many are ignorant (as I am - the situation is too complex). But maybe a first step is to listen to folks. You are too Duning Kruger to care.
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 05, 2016
Like a typical liberal, you only like to give the IMPRESSION that you care. Had you actually cared you would seek the non-PC answers and not charge "racist" at those who do.

Simply citing racial disparities is not itself evidence of "institutionalized racism", given the definition of "racism", because presumes causation with evidence. You need to show where there is intentional and conscious racial policy in structural institutions, despite that this is very illegal, and despite that the first black president and the first black attorney general has not fixed the problem for seven years nor even made it a major civil rights issue.

I'm not going to waste my time reading your links anymore unless you summarize what the point is.

It is even clear by the manufactured definition of "institutionalized racism" that there is no such evidence, because they go out of their way to rule of "intention" as a condition,…. even though THAT'S what "racism" means.
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 05, 2016
Most black Americans agree with me, … 61% Blacks say the breakup of the African American family is a major reason for economic and social problems facing them.

69% of blacks say past and present discrimination are/was a major factor. The study does not separate "past and present" here. Certainly the vast majority would think past generational discrimination is a factor than present.

"55% Black Americans are more likely to say that achieving the American Dream is easier for them than it was for their parents"

74% blacks say that hiring, promotion, and college admission should be based strictly on merit and qualifications other than race or ethnicity.
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 05, 2016
majority of clients are of color. People who spend a lot of time in court, or jail, or probation etc. [...] many are ignorant


Wow,.. what a racist comment,... you're a despicable racist pig. Racist.

Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 05, 2016
EDIT: they go out of their way to rule [out] "intention" as a condition,…. even though THAT'S what "racism" means
greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 05, 2016
Had you actually cared you would seek the non-PC answers and not charge "racist" at those who do.
You know nothing about me - or what I care or don't care about. Seems you are just offended that somewhere dare see the racism in your words and call you on it.
they go out of their way to rule [out] "intention" as a condition,…. even though THAT'S what "racism" means
Well - at least according to your one dictionary definition of racism - that was contradicted by my dictionary definition - and all the research and stats that I linked to - that you have no interest in reading - just promoting your own opinion - without any support - as fact. Then you comment on a science web site....
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 05, 2016
You know nothing about me - or what I care or don't care about. Seems you are just offended that somewhere dare see the racism in your words and call you on it.


You know nothing about me - or what I care or don't care about, but yet you repeat the charge of racism as if you do.

My definition of racism and the one YOU even provided indicate what everyone on the planet knows as its meaning,.... intent of belief and/or action to discriminate based on race.

The made up definition of "institutionalized racism" is self redundant as it even stipulates the above conditions don't apply.

Don't you understand that any group of idiots can redefine terms for their own convenience and then claim anything they want?

greenonions
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 05, 2016
but yet you repeat the charge of racism as if you do.
Nope - I repeat the charge of racism - because I have read your words. You declare there is no such thing as institutional racism. It is clear from your words that you do not have the understanding of our world - to make that declaration - but you feel compelled to do it any way. I do not have the authority either - I am white - and can only read about the experience of black people in America. These people do have the authority - and it is racist to dismiss their voices. http://www.buzzfe...2K8VRpjN
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (7) Apr 17, 2016
Facts can't be racist nor can they be racially exclusive.

"institutionalized racism" and the like is fraudulent as it obviously implies conscious racial discrimination, when no such racist institutionalized policy is ever cited. Indeed, had it actually existed, the first black attorney general and first black president, both of whom sympathize with the racial grievance industry, would have a political field day with it,... yet seven years of nothing.

The people who use that phrase are either 1) not intelligent enough to understand the distinction between 'causal circumstantial racial disparities' and 'active conscious racial discrimination',.... or 2) are deliberately and dishonestly manufacturing that obfuscation to benefit the victim-industry.

QED

Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (7) Apr 18, 2016
These people do have the authority - and it is racist to dismiss their voices


They categorically do NOT have the authority to manufacture their own facts. The American judicial system has the authority to determine facts and congress has the authority to determine laws,.... and "institutionalized racism",.... is ILLEGAL.

Yet, where is the first black Attorney General Eric Holder in prosecuting this racial conspiracy of "institutionalized racism"? Where is the first black president in making this a major civil rights issue? Nowhere, because it is a myth.

The notion that "it is racist to dismiss their voices" implies that they can't be wrong so that the only remaining reason to dismiss them would be based on race,.... which is an obvious idiotic fallacy.

There is no racism in "institutionalized racism" by their own admission, of the convoluted definition of that phrase. But yet, they still want to use the word "racism". Obviously, this is fraudulent.

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