Eternal 5D data storage could record the history of humankind

February 15, 2016
Eternal 5D data storage could record the history of humankind
Universal Declaration of Human Rights recorded into 5D optical data

Scientists at the University of Southampton have made a major step forward in the development of digital data storage that is capable of surviving for billions of years.

Using nanostructured glass, scientists from the University's Optoelectronics Research Centre (ORC) have developed the recording and retrieval processes of five dimensional (5D) digital data by femtosecond laser writing.

The storage allows unprecedented properties including 360 TB/disc data capacity, thermal stability up to 1,000°C and virtually unlimited lifetime at room temperature (13.8 billion years at 190°C ) opening a new era of eternal data archiving. As a very stable and safe form of portable memory, the technology could be highly useful for organisations with big archives, such as national archives, museums and libraries, to preserve their information and records.

The technology was first experimentally demonstrated in 2013 when a 300 kb digital copy of a text file was successfully recorded in 5D.

Now, major documents from human history such as Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), Newton's Opticks, Magna Carta and Kings James Bible, have been saved as digital copies that could survive the human race. A copy of the UDHR encoded to 5D data storage was recently presented to UNESCO by the ORC at the International Year of Light (IYL) closing ceremony in Mexico.

Eternal 5D data storage could record the history of humankind
Eternal 5D data storage

The documents were recorded using ultrafast laser, producing extremely short and intense pulses of light. The file is written in three layers of nanostructured dots separated by five micrometres (one millionth of a metre).

The self-assembled nanostructures change the way light travels through glass, modifying polarisation of light that can then be read by combination of optical microscope and a polariser, similar to that found in Polaroid sunglasses.

Coined as the 'Superman memory crystal', as the glass memory has been compared to the "memory crystals" used in the Superman films, the data is recorded via self-assembled nanostructures created in fused quartz. The information encoding is realised in five dimensions: the size and orientation in addition to the three dimensional position of these nanostructures.

Professor Peter Kazansky, from the ORC, says: "It is thrilling to think that we have created the technology to preserve documents and information and store it in space for future generations. This technology can secure the last evidence of our civilisation: all we've learnt will not be forgotten."

The researchers will present their research at the photonics industry's renowned SPIE—The International Society for Optical Engineering Conference in San Francisco, USA this week. The invited paper, '5D Data Storage by Ultrafast Laser Writing in Glass' will be presented on Wednesday 17 February.

The team are now looking for industry partners to further develop and commercialise this ground-breaking new technology.

Explore further: 5D optical memory in glass could record the last evidence of civilization

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mvg
4.2 / 5 (12) Feb 15, 2016
Such a long-lasting historical archive should be a valuable tool to demonstrate to future generations what NOT to do to the planet and each other.
daqman
2.7 / 5 (6) Feb 15, 2016
This is a great invention and I've got nothing against it but "eternal data storage" is a bit of a stretch. Supposing a collapse of civilization or extinction event that completely takes out the human race glass disks will last a long time but not forever. Geological processes will bury the archive and grind it into dust in maybe a few million years.

Barring total extinction of humanity and supposing that civilization rises again (dubious since we took all of the easily extractable resources and only left behind the hard to get at stuff) would they be able to read the medium? If they could read it what will they get? Probably something that won't be understandable. It sounds like the contents of books are being archived, in that case what language? If English then I doubt anyone will be around who can read it.
holoman
1.4 / 5 (8) Feb 15, 2016
So can write really small.

How are the futurist supposed to read the data ?

Any disk drive company can write the data presently but recovering the data without errors ?

SciTechdude
2.8 / 5 (6) Feb 15, 2016
A data storage medium is only as good as availability of readers to access it. If every city in the world has a library full of these with a reader, it'll survive the test of time. If there's only one here and there, it's likely they will break and nobody will be able to read them. How hard is this technology to access if your society is broken back to the feudal age by disaster?
Eikka
4.4 / 5 (7) Feb 15, 2016
How are the futurist supposed to read the data ?


Read the article: optical microscope with a polarizing filter.

You could in theory send one of the glass discs back to 1893 and the best scientists would be able to read it. The bigger trouble would be to make them understand what it is to decipher the 5D encoding.
Pooua
4.3 / 5 (7) Feb 15, 2016
We could put the most significant documents from throughout human history on disks and launch them into orbit out beyond Mars, to serve as a cosmic time capsule for thousands of years. We could put them on the planetary bodies, where, perhaps, future generations could discover them.
NoStrings
2.3 / 5 (7) Feb 15, 2016
So, a billion years from now the aliens visit this planet. Apart from having to recognize there is something recorded on whatever media and language. Are you sure they will care much about history of this extinct monkey subspecies, or a randomly picked ant hill or bee hive? Really?
Aren't we considering ourselves IMPORTANT?
Captain Stumpy
4.4 / 5 (13) Feb 15, 2016
So, a billion years from now the aliens ...this extinct monkey subspecies, or a randomly picked ant hill or bee hive? Really?
Aren't we considering ourselves IMPORTANT?
@NoStrings
assuming said species is intelligent, we can logically conclude that, in order to reach our planet and travel the vast distances, they are a curious species (at least enough to seek out the laws of physics, etc)
therefore, we can make an assumption that, like ourselves, they would be interested in not only artifacts of past civilizations, but also in their technology (after all, we still dig up Dino bones and seek to validate hypothesis about past climate, tectonic plates, locations and distributions of animals, etc)

it is not THAT we think we are important, but that we have the ability to share knowledge or find a means to save knowledge for future reference

any intelligent species would be curious even if only for a laugh at our quaint methods
or to see how far we got before extinction
promile
Feb 15, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Captain Stumpy
3.7 / 5 (10) Feb 15, 2016
99% of data would be a porn. Future civilizations would get mislead with the way
@ZEPH
i disagree
you can tell a lot about a person, culture, species, nation, race, etc by what they choose to promote and make popular as well as by what they intentionally choose to promote...
after all, it does reflect our society fairly well today (in more than a few nations)

besides, most of the porn will likely be repetitious (either by sharing the same images elsewhere or by pirating imagery and data for release) so there likely isn't as much original stuff as you think
nilbud
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 15, 2016
I suppose if you're stuck for space you could use the King James abridged bible but they could have used a real bible instead.
promile
Feb 15, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
nilbud
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 15, 2016
Eternal 5D data storage could record the history of humankind
I just hope, they don't want to backup the whole Internet with it - 99% of data would be a porn. Future civilizations would get mislead with the way, in which we gained superiority over the rest of species...


Porn is collective, singular is porno.
Captain Stumpy
3.9 / 5 (11) Feb 15, 2016
you can tell a lot what they choose to promote and make popular as well as by what they intentionally choose to promote
You wouldn't believe, we have evidence of cold fusion or overunity for one century from data, which the scientists are only willing to share... :-)
@zeph
sharing a delusion that has no reputable evidence doesn't make it more legit by repetition any more than repeating a lie makes it more true...

the only thing it does is repeat the lie/delusion/religion etc in a manner that makes it easier to swallow by the gullible which is the tactic of circular reasoning used by religions all over the planet

IF you had evidence that was reputable, you would be able to prove it in a scientific journal with results that would (and you can quote me on this) literally give you the next nobel prize in physics as well as make you the founding father of the future of humanity
baudrunner
2.2 / 5 (11) Feb 15, 2016
I hope that they don't store the Encyclopedia Britannica on that disc for posterity. It's so grossly skewed into the direction of the glorification of the history of British Imperialism that it has turned it into a virtual mythology. Hardly what I would call a preservation of accurate data. Bunch of misleading liars.
malapropism
4.4 / 5 (7) Feb 15, 2016
@NoStrings
So, a billion years from now the aliens visit this planet. Apart from having to recognize there is something recorded on whatever media and language. Are you sure they will care much about history of this extinct monkey subspecies...

We can do this as a current thought experiment: few hundred years from now the first human explorers of a previously-inhabited planet stumble across the inhabitants' archive of their civilisation over a few thousand years of documented history.

Don't you think those explorers and the rest of humanity (ok, to be fair, perhaps not you, if you're still around) would be vitally interested and excited to discover this and to decipher it and find out about those people? If it happened tomorrow, I would be intensely interested and I suspect many other commenters and contributors here and on other science sites would be too.

And including an easily-read and decoded primer on each disk would be a sensible start to such an archive.
gkam
2.2 / 5 (10) Feb 15, 2016
Why don't we wait until we have something intelligent to say?
antialias_physorg
4.1 / 5 (9) Feb 16, 2016
How are the futurist supposed to read the data ?

Remember microfilm (from some old agent movies...or even from your own visits to the library depending on your age)? Just because something is small doesn't mean it's unreadable.

We could put them on the planetary bodies, where, perhaps, future generations could discover them.

I would rather not have embarassing stuff (like the Bible) strewn all over our back yard for aliens to find.

Aren't we considering ourselves IMPORTANT?

I guess this is more of a "can we do it" excecise. (which is pretty neat, I have to admit). Or something that would be useful to have if we send out generation ships or long distance probes. Probably doesn't need the billion year plus stability, but not having to worry about loss of data is certainly nice.
daqddyo
5 / 5 (7) Feb 16, 2016
What I want is a memory device that can store my stuff (including data, pictures, movies and programs) and that will never fail in my lifetime. After that, I don't care so much.
If my computer bites the dust, I should be able to just pull out my memory device, plop it into my new machine and I'm good to go.

Is there no computer company in our present civilization that can make such a compatible machine for me?
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (6) Feb 16, 2016
Is there no computer company in our present civilization that can make such a compatible machine for me?

There is. You can buy guaranteed failsafe discs (to any number of average bits per year failure rate) but it becomes exponentially expensive since they usually work by saving stuff multiply redundant.

in the end you can go for cloud storage, which does just what you want. (Personally I don't like having my stuff in the cloud - even if its encrypted - because that is always subject to weird legislative shennanigans I have no control over dependent where the servers are located and which hubs the data passes through)

Also note that the memory proposed in the article is not RAM but WORM (write once, read many).
alvesman
5 / 5 (10) Feb 16, 2016
... and the first thing they "print" is the "holy bible"... (sigh)
_ermann_ellness
not rated yet Feb 16, 2016
You folks are not very smart. Future civilizations would decode it with a decoder ring.
cjones1
5 / 5 (2) Feb 16, 2016
I can imagine one of our ancestors finding such a thing and wearing it as jewelry or trading it for food. God knows how many libraries and how much knowledge has been lost in the ravages of war and the wear of time.
Noumenon
4.1 / 5 (9) Feb 16, 2016
It's so grossly skewed into the direction of the glorification of the history of British Imperialism that it has turned it into a virtual mythology.


Not enough "cultural diversity"? That is nothing more than an invented emotional politically-correct phrase, which has zero to do with reality or facts.

In fact it was the greatest historical event for the advancement of the human condition. As in elements of evolutionary history with failed species, humanity has also seen failed cultures come and go. Western culture has proven itself the greatest influential force for the evolution of the human condition.

All long before the aborigines of the Americas would have started building cars? It even seems a ridiculous question.
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Feb 16, 2016
@Nou
loved the reply above but WTF is the last line about?
All long before the aborigines of the Americas would have started building cars?
what exactly do you mean by that?
It doesn't make sense
or is it just a matter of being obscured because you added the question mark?
Noumenon
4.4 / 5 (8) Feb 16, 2016
I have a love hate relationship with my auto-correct....

"[How] long before the aborigines of the Americas would have started building cars? It even seems a ridiculous question. "

A rhetorical question,... some cultures are not adept to technologically advancement.

Captain Stumpy
4.6 / 5 (9) Feb 16, 2016
I have a love hate relationship with my auto-correct....
I see... thanks
makes sense now

and yes, it is very unlikely that American aboriginals would have started building cars given their culture

just a thought- IMHO
it is not so much their "not adept to technologically advancement" as it is their cultural belief system which required them to be far more tied to certain things

as an example: The powerful Plains tribes were willing to include technology and change to a large degree (Horse, rifle, gun) ... just not at the expense of certain other things (cultural and religious)
https://en.wikipe..._Indians

their biggest problem was not accepting tech but accepting the invasive leadership tactics of a singular person in a manner similar to the Euro governance which allowed for a different fighting tactic
Zzzzzzzz
4.6 / 5 (9) Feb 16, 2016
So, a billion years from now the aliens visit this planet. Apart from having to recognize there is something recorded on whatever media and language. Are you sure they will care much about history of this extinct monkey subspecies, or a randomly picked ant hill or bee hive? Really?
Aren't we considering ourselves IMPORTANT?

Don't we always? But at the same time, it we ever visited another planet, and found evidence of even the most rudimentary single celled life, we would think that was VERY important. If we found a recording, we would study it until it was deciphered/decoded. It would all be considered the biggest news to ever hit humanity.
mvg
5 / 5 (3) Feb 16, 2016
It seems to me that very small records might easily never be found within the context of a billion years of jumbled chaos.

Better to make something less comprehensive, but unmistakably evident.
lrshultis
3.4 / 5 (5) Feb 16, 2016
Anyone remember Surveyer and Apollo 12. Brought back camera from Surveyer and found that the glass filter had lots of cosmic ray tracks in the glass. Would cosmic rays harm the data on the stored data?
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (3) Feb 16, 2016
It seems to me that very small records might easily never be found within the context of a billion years of jumbled chaos
@mvg
point taken, but this only assumes aliens/future investigators have the same level of technology that we do now

and *we* even find minuscule (even microscopic) evidence in broad (or large) chaotic environments that help define the historical events (forensics is a great example of this, but we also have medicine, evolution, geology and more)
Better to make something less comprehensive, but unmistakably evident
a great argument, but physically and fiscally a bad idea due to storage space requirements

i can understand your point but we are also dealing with a tremendous volume of information (not conducive to rock carving unless we start hacking up planets, IMHO - LOL - jk)
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (5) Feb 16, 2016
Would cosmic rays harm the data on the stored data?
@lrshultis
well... given the medium of choice (glass) then we know that any physical object (especially one in motion or under pressure) can have a detrimental effect on it - sand, powder, etc... so the storage facility (or case, etc) would have to be substantial to protect it from physical damage...

as for cosmic rays on Surveyor 3 - i didn't find your cosmic ray impacts on the lens... all i found was this

http://www.lpi.us...lais.pdf

do you have a study that you can forward ??

EDIT:
found this: http://ntrs.nasa....20019112

is that what you are talking about?
baudrunner
3 / 5 (4) Feb 16, 2016
In fact it was the greatest historical event for the advancement of the human condition.
I take it you're talking about British Imperialism. What hogwash, the British have a history of thievery and piracy on the high seas. Their monarchs have ruled through terrorism and by instilling fear in their own people (the gallows for eg.). They obtained their wealth through seizure, extortion and piracy. Long story short, Charles I was beheaded by William of Orange after William seized the throne following his defeat of and obliteration of the English navy and the English naval ship building capabilities for the unforgivable crime of Charles' torching of 300 merchant vessels lying at anchor in a safe harbor north of Amsterdam, because he was jealous of the Dutch success in international trade. William established the Bank of England. Queen Victoria broke that bank by building railways across India. Who was it then who gave us civilization - not England.
Noumenon
4.4 / 5 (7) Feb 16, 2016
Better to make something less comprehensive, but unmistakably evident

a great argument, but physically and fiscally a bad idea due to storage space requirements

i can understand your point but we are also dealing with a tremendous volume of information (not conducive to rock carving unless we start hacking up planets, IMHO - LOL - jk)


That's why the Egyptians built the pyramids,.... they just couldn't get them launched into space.
baudrunner
2 / 5 (4) Feb 16, 2016
In fact it was the greatest historical event for the advancement of the human condition.
I should point out that the Dutch invented the afternoon tea break. They had a middle class by the middle of the 1600's. Before the English came to India and ruined it, India was a beautiful and stable, not to mention highly civilized place where there was no poverty and everybody knew their place. Their skills at cultivation, the production of elaborate linens, their sophisticated culinary skills and their enviable way of life were unmatched anywhere on Earth. This is from the reports of people who had traveled there before the English arrived and ran roughshod over the population, destroying an ancient and balanced civilization. The English certainly didn't advance their human condition, that's for sure.

I could go on. Holland ceded New Amsterdam to the English. English ruined India with their railways; Dutch enriched America with their railways etc...
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (8) Feb 16, 2016
the British have a history of thievery and piracy on the high seas
@baud
so do the Americans, Africans, Greeks, Romans, Spanish, French, Russians, Vikings, Chinese, and just about every other civilization
Their monarchs have ruled through terrorism and by instilling fear in their own people (the gallows for eg.)
France, Spain, Austria, Germany, Hungary, Italy...

this is getting redundant...

you really didn't actually think about your comment at all, did you? because you are ignoring 90% of world history to focus hate on the Brits... WTF?

That's why the Egyptians built the pyramids,.... they just couldn't get them launched into space.
ROTFLMFAO
now THAT is funny!

baudrunner
2 / 5 (4) Feb 16, 2016
In fact it was the greatest historical event for the advancement of the human condition.
Now you've got me on a roll. Let's just say this, compare the works of the Dutch Golden Age masters to the crap that England's J. M. W. Turner produced. And here's an excerpt out of Wikipedia on Turner
Turner was considered a controversial figure in his day, but is now regarded as the artist who elevated landscape painting to an eminence rivalling history painting
An Englishman must have written that. He is just as bad now as he was considered to be back then before this age of propaganda.
Noumenon
4.2 / 5 (6) Feb 16, 2016
In fact it was the greatest historical event for the advancement of the human condition.
I take it you're talking about British Imperialism. What hogwash, the British have a history of thievery and piracy on the high seas.......


You're lost in unimportant micro-details. The important point was in establishing trade routes and active exploration, industry, science, .... spreading the notion of commerce, ...competition. Capitalism with private property protection would evolve from this.

Great Britain controlled some 98% of the surface of the earth at one time,... for the better. Of course they are only one representative of [superior] western culture.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (9) Feb 16, 2016
India was a beautiful and stable, not to mention highly civilized place where there was no poverty and everybody knew their place
@baud
this is called a delusional belief based upon your personal bias and racial hatred: IF the Indians (hindu) had no poverty, where did the Untouchable Varna come from (the fifth element of segregation in said caste system from the begining)?
http://reserves.f...86-1.pdf

https://en.wikipe...in_India

the untouchables were known to exist in BCE times... so that completely invalidates your claims and suggest a racial or political hatred you have
baudrunner
1.3 / 5 (3) Feb 16, 2016
you really didn't actually think about your comment at all, did you? because you are ignoring 90% of world history to focus hate on the Brits... WTF?
My point is that English history writers are ignoring 90% of the world's true history to focus glory on British Imperialism.

I'm not ignoring 90% of world history. When the Japanese Empire tired of their international trading partners' avarice they kicked them all out of Japan. With the exception of the Dutch, who are the ones truly responsible for the advancement of the human condition. I stand my ground.
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Feb 16, 2016
[superior] western culture.
@Nou
subjective term based upon a technological perspective...
i would suggest that this is a malleable term that is dependent upon the observer... after all, i am sure the Lakota believe their culture to be superior, and i *know* the Japanese feel theirs is superior... i've also met people from all over the world who make the same claims about *their own* cultures...

but that is a niggling point unlike the disrespectful spewing of baud in this case...
Captain Stumpy
4 / 5 (7) Feb 16, 2016
My point is that English history writers are ignoring 90% of the world's true history to focus glory on British Imperialism.
@Baud
1- this is a huge exaggeration
2- ALL cultures tend to focus primarily upon their own culture and not others (do americans learn french history like the french? NO... do Japanese learn about Russian history and culture? NO)
so, that argument is kinda BS... it is also refuted in that the encyclopaedia also contain a lot of world history (have you actually read them? recently or at all?)
When the Japanese Empire tired of their international trading partners' avarice they kicked them all out of Japan. With the exception of the Dutch
do not think that the Dutch were considered "insiders" in Japan... they are still Gaijin
and don't confuse political maneuvering and keeping resources as indication of anything BUT what it is

the Japanese can be very intelligent and tactically brilliant
Noumenon
5 / 5 (7) Feb 16, 2016
@baudrunner, your argument is like that of complaining that the auto-industry hurt the horse-shoe industry. Well yea, it did,... but....

Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (7) Feb 16, 2016
My point is that English history writers are ignoring 90% of the world's true history to focus glory on British Imperialism.


I remember being in grade school wondering why they were telling me about American Indians dancing around in a circle to make it rain and that they called corn "maze". My instinct was right, they wasted my time. American Indians should be impressed by western culture, not western culture by American Indian culture. Probably the same is true for India.

What is orders of magnitude more relevant to who we are now is western culture. This goes for minutiae cultural histories as well. It's not that they were ignored,... it's that they didn't matter.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (6) Feb 16, 2016
[superior] western culture.
@Nou
subjective term based upon a technological perspective...
i would suggest that this is a malleable term that is dependent upon the observer... after all, i am sure the Lakota believe their culture to be superior, and i *know* the Japanese feel theirs is superior... i've also met people from all over the world who make the same claims about *their own* cultures...

but that is a niggling point unlike the disrespectful spewing of baud in this case...


I agree, but I was still referring to "human condition" which in not subjective, but in fact quantifiable via standard of living, expected life expectancy, economics.
Captain Stumpy
4.4 / 5 (7) Feb 16, 2016
American Indians should be impressed by western culture, not western culture by American Indian culture
@Nou
Why?

because of your comment " I was still referring to "human condition" which in not subjective"?

this depends a lot on what you value and what you view as important for existence and the "human condition"... should we revere a longer life when most geriatrics are treated like crap by family and society?
should we revere technology when it also facilitates the spread of problems like pseudoscience, disease (mass transit), hatred (ISIS, skinheads, racism, sexism etc)?

I need clarification on that one

There is good and bad in everything, so i will suggest (IMHO) that the human condition is also subjective to the individual perspective
It may well be quantifiable, but the whole discussion of "standard of living" is subjective to the culture, person, and beliefs
lrshultis
5 / 5 (1) Feb 16, 2016
Captain Stumpy:
I remembered seeing cosmic ray tracts long ago in some science mag. My reference was from a note in May 1971 Popular Mechanics which dealt with an estimate, from 31 days exposure to cosmic rays to the glass filter, from the tracts in the glass applied to an estimate of erosion rates to the surface of the moon.
As of now, I would say that there is no real long term data storage. I doubt that dvd storage will last as long as paper storage has lasted.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 16, 2016
It will all be moot in a few million years.
baudrunner
3 / 5 (2) Feb 16, 2016
Great Britain controlled some 98% of the surface of the earth at one time,... for the better. Of course they are only one representative of [superior] western culture.
Woah! That's a perfect example of the ingrained indoctrination of just the kind of brainwashing I am talking about.

Maybe you have forgotten that in the desperate effort to secure wealth at all costs because of their lack of territorial control, which would have afforded them exotic trades in the East the English attempted to monopolize the Opium trade and were soundly trounced by the Chinese. Drug dealers, now. It is a fact that today every monetary note in U.K. has traces of cocaine on it, and they are the most prolific users of illegal drugs in Europe, by far.

For that matter, a half dozen other nations could have claimed that the sun never set on their "empire" but their interests were more in doing business than in global domination.
baudrunner
5 / 5 (1) Feb 16, 2016
@Stumpy, I am neither a racist nor a hater of people or things British. I like every Englishman, from the Prime Minister down...

I'm sure they understand.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (5) Feb 16, 2016
@Stumpy, I thought I expanded on the objective meaning of "human condition", ....." quantifiable via standard of living, expected life expectancy, economics."

should we revere a longer life when most geriatrics are treated like crap by family and society?
should we revere technology when it also facilitates the spread of problems like pseudoscience, disease (mass transit), hatred (ISIS, skinheads, racism, sexism etc)?


Should one walk to work because a car may get a flat?
Noumenon
5 / 5 (5) Feb 16, 2016
Drug dealers, now. It is a fact that today every monetary note in U.K. has traces of cocaine on it, and they are the most prolific users of illegal drugs in Europe, by far.


The harmful effects of such plants was not entirely understood as much as was the demand understood. I don't blame the American Indians for cancer by turning us onto tobacco. Do you?

lrshultis
3 / 5 (4) Feb 16, 2016
@Stumpy:
1957 (Gross?) produced Lichtenberg figures in borosilicate glass with 2 MEV electrons. I don't know if mesons or other radiation could make such tracks from electrical discharge in the glass used for this data storage.
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Feb 16, 2016
I remembered seeing ...in some science mag
@lrshultis
Good memory! well, considering this link: http://ntrs.nasa....20019112

and this
Particle tracks were investigated in the glass plate of a neutral density (clear flint) optical filter housed in the Surveyor 3 TV camera but exposed directly to space...
Several tracks were of V-shapes characteristic of high energy induced fission
then you must be correct in that the glass would be affected by exposure, right?
I ordered the full doc (from the link) so i can't see the whole thing till i get it - sorry

well, IMHO i would think that considering the glass materials said library would have to be protected and controlled from certain exposures anyway
it is a far better method than DVD/CD as well because it doesn't require high tech to access it... and it is far lighter than etched granite (LOL)

I wonder if we could etch man-made diamond in the same way?

Captain Stumpy
4.4 / 5 (7) Feb 16, 2016
I am neither a racist nor a hater of people or things British
@Baud
then why post this?
It's so grossly skewed into the direction of the glorification of the history of British Imperialism that it has turned it into a virtual mythology. ...Bunch of misleading liars
or
the British have a history of thievery and piracy on the high seas. Their monarchs have ruled through terrorism and by instilling fear in their own people
did you forget about everyone else in the world doing the same thing?
what about
Before the English came to India and ruined it, India was a beautiful and stable, not to mention highly civilized place where there was no poverty and everybody knew their place
that is NOT the voice of reason or rationality, baud
it sounds like you simply hate the Brits

as for the blue-bloods... WHO the f*ck cares?
not i... and i married into it (Wife is related to a LOT of blue-bloods)
so why the hatred?
Captain Stumpy
4.4 / 5 (7) Feb 16, 2016
Should one walk... flat?
@Nou
yes, you expanded, but you also assume that everyone holds the same opinion or measurements for quality of life
some people don't hold with technology at all
some find it useful but dislike it
some eschew it
would you say their quality of life is better or worse than yours or your definition?

it is not a matter of your question
what the point really boils down to is this:
is the acceptance of technology required for a good quality of life?
Is the acceptance of western culture the only quality life that can be given?

now, i agree with a certain few things from western advancements, like equality and such... but i will suggest again, IMHO, that the human condition and quality of life is also subjective to the individual perspective

It may well be quantifiable, but the whole discussion of "standard of living" is subjective to the culture, person, and beliefs
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (5) Feb 16, 2016
Drug dealers, now. It is a fact that today every monetary note in U.K. has traces of cocaine on it, and they are the most prolific users of illegal drugs in Europe, by far.
@Baud
the same holds true for American currency (take any wad of cash you like to the local forensic lab or just meet me in mine and i will show you)
but their interests were more in doing business than in global domination.
if you think this is true and you consider nations to be so "altruistic" than you have some serious learnin' to do, Lucy...
lrshultis
3 / 5 (4) Feb 17, 2016
@Stumpy:
See:

http://www.scielo..._arttext

for an account of Lichenberg figures produced in glass by MEV energy electrons.
Eikka
5 / 5 (4) Feb 17, 2016
I don't blame the American Indians for cancer by turning us onto tobacco. Do you?


For that you have to blame the Spanish and Dutch traders who bought and sold the stuff in Europe.
Eikka
5 / 5 (5) Feb 17, 2016
Let's just say this, compare the works of the Dutch Golden Age masters to the crap that England's J. M. W. Turner produced.


If you think Turner is "crap", you either haven't understood Turner or you don't understand painting in general.

Turner was among the first to explore the proper use of color in rendering light and atmosphere. Rather than just turn a shadow a darker value of the light, or use any random color that looked nice, he observed how the light changes in diffuse back-reflection, and in part inspired impressionist artist like Renoir who said "No shadow is black. It always has a color. Nature knows only colors - white and black are not colors. "
Captain Stumpy
4 / 5 (4) Feb 18, 2016
lrshultis said
I remembered seeing cosmic ray tracts long ago in some science mag. My reference was from a note in May 1971
@lrshultis
just for your information... you have a good memory! THANK YOU for making me go look this up

I also found the following paper with a little help from the NASA site i linked above:

http://ntrs.nasa....9081.pdf

I haven't been through the paper yet but i will be going through it over the next few days. it is hoped that it will answer your question as well as give some more to consider.

publication Pg 146 (pg 158 of 308 in the PDF) did have some interesting info- look for "high velocity"

Captain Stumpy
4 / 5 (4) Feb 18, 2016
I don't blame the American Indians for cancer by turning us onto tobacco. Do you?
For that you have to blame the Spanish and Dutch traders who bought and sold the stuff in Europe.
it also doesn't help that they made a lot of money off of the product by adding fillers and other crap to it that exacerbated the "cancer" situation (like Tar)
LOL
lrshultis
3 / 5 (2) Feb 18, 2016
@Stumpy:
I cannot find the photos of tracts that I remember from decades ago. They may have been in minerals such as quartz.
baudrunner
1 / 5 (2) Feb 18, 2016
It's so grossly skewed into the direction of the glorification of the history of British Imperialism that it has turned it into a virtual mythology. ...Bunch of misleading liars
Exactly as I said. It's about the misleading presentation of that encyclopedia, which is supposed to be a book of facts, that ignores the real causes and events that molded English history in the 17th century. It's about the bias and the manipulation of students' perceptions about English history - the propaganda and the twisted tale-telling that hides the evil that men did, that paints the wrong picture of those events.

Most international trade after all the deals and treaties were recognized - no telephone in those days - still ended up in Rotterdam anyway, because the feudal English hadn't yet made it possible for any English middle class to enjoy all those imported products. That was the frustration that Charles felt. He thought that all his trade existed to serve him alone.
Eikka
5 / 5 (7) Feb 19, 2016
it also doesn't help that they made a lot of money off of the product by adding fillers and other crap to it that exacerbated the "cancer" situation (like Tar)


Tar wasn't and isn't added to tobacco. It's a product of the process of smoking it.

What made tobacco worse for cancer is the act of curing it in smoke-filled sheds to make production faster and cheaper. Tobacco is cured to get rid of chlorophyll which would otherwise make a pungent sharp weed-like flavor to it, and it can be done air-drying slowly under the sun, or in heated barns.

promile
Feb 19, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
promile
Feb 19, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
gkam
3 / 5 (8) Feb 19, 2016
promile, it was this crystallization which ruined the idea of glassification or vitrification of nuclear waste. They found he impurities become points of nucleation for the glass, resulting in eventual fracturing of the glass, the release of radionuclides, which are then dissolved or contained in the ground water drawn to the site by the thermal plumes of the exothermic waste. The plumes carry the radionuclides to the surface, where they are evaporated and carried by the wind into our lungs.

This already occurred in tests. We may just have to send the nuclear waste to the corporate offices of those who created it.
promile
Feb 19, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
gkam
1 / 5 (5) Feb 19, 2016
Pro, according to my friends in the biz, the new way is to coat each little bit of nasty stuff with some kind of glass or ceramic. I do not know how that will solve the problem.
gkam
1 / 5 (7) Feb 19, 2016
"I don't understand, which prick downoted you for this comment. It's completely relevant"
------------------------------------
Yeah, this one, too. Having had some interesting jobs in my 71 years and relating some, a few folk here started calling me a liar, a sure sign of their professionalism and maturity.

To be honest, my experiences are unusual and unusually varied. But when I provided proof, these folk went crazy, and now follow me around to assign "ones" to everything I post, even those with which they agree.

I suggest we ignore them.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (5) Feb 19, 2016
@Stumpy:
I cannot find the photos of tracts that I remember from decades ago. They may have been in minerals such as quartz.
@lrshultis
Not a problem... there are photo's in the study i linked above. do they correspond with what you remember?
if you saw an article about it, they likely just used existing photo's from a publication (like the NASA study i linked above)
it has a lot of information and i'm still reading through it... quite fascinating, IMHO

It is also likely the original source that inspired the article you read, too, so it will have information the article missed or didn't feel relevant

Thanks for making me find it... it is awesome
makes me wonder why we aren't putting more $$ into NASA and it's endeavors ... but then again: politics isn't known for it's logic or ability to plan ahead, either
gkam
1.2 / 5 (6) Feb 19, 2016
"makes me wonder why we aren't putting more $$ into NASA and it's endeavors ."
------------------------------

Yup, and the spin-offs from civilian space grossly exceed those from military spending. But we all really know the reason: Military-Industrial Complex, the one which owns our politicians and the panderers running for office.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (4) Feb 19, 2016
It's about the misleading presentation of that encyclopedia, which is supposed to be a book of facts
@baud
facts are as people percieve them to be. don't confuse "facts" with "data"... that is one of the biggest problems with "history" anyway... a "fact" to you is not necessarily viewed the same way as a "fact" to the opposition or another party (IOW- the story is subjective to interpretations, hence your disapproval of the perspective)

This has always been a problem for history, and b/c it is typically written by the victors (and humans), it will continue to be such

this can be viewed in the history of the US expansion west into the plains. the US tells one story; the Lakota, however, tell a completely different story

just b/c you dislike it doesn't mean you can't learn from it... and just because your perspective differs doesn't mean it is THE CORRECT version any more than my family history is the most accurate version of the western US expansion
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (6) Feb 19, 2016
But we all really know the reason: Military-Industrial Complex
this is the reason i downrated your comment: you can't expect us to not fund a military, and the military now has a global mission that is integrated with more than just our own interests (though our interests come first, as it should)

Tar wasn't and isn't added to tobacco. It's a product of the process of smoking it
@Eikka
Yes, thank you. that was a mistake and i caught it after the ability to edit
apologies to everyone on that... i meant to type something else but i rushed and i have fat fingers
SORRY

gkam
1 / 5 (7) Feb 19, 2016
"this is the reason i downrated your comment: you can't expect us to not fund a military, . . "
--------------------------------

Oh, stop it. You did it because of spite. You know I am not anti-military.
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (5) Feb 19, 2016
I don't understand, which prick downoted you for this comment. It's completely relevant
@ZEPH
really?
so... when you intentionally down-rate others who also produce evidence backed relevant posts that refute your own personal ideals... what is the reason you are down-rating those?

are you being a "prick"?
or are you being defensive because you are promoting a falsified belief system and you know it?
are you angry b/c you don't have evidence?
or is it simply an emotional reaction to someone you simply don't like and want to lash out at?
https://www.psych...ttle-ego

you are the worst offender here of down-rating relevant information or posts simply because you don't like the person or you want to "add credibility" to your perspective

PRO-TIP
credibility comes from being able to prove something with evidence
NOT from a sock army you create yourself
Captain Stumpy
4.4 / 5 (7) Feb 19, 2016
You know I am not anti-military.
@g
i did not do it from spite, and you ARE anti-military
you made comments like saying i helped "mass-murder those 200,000 civilians" in Iraq
http://phys.org/n...rse.html

this is not a matter of speculation but taken directly from your own posts and words
you tried to backpedal but then you also denigrated other vets on PO for various reasons as well

by definition that is someone who is anti-military

say what you will- at least i can justify my responses and validate my claims with evidence
your reply to factual refute of your posts tends to be "but i have a degree" or "my experience" or "says the [insert ad hominem] with no experience in [random topic]"

this is also my last post to you on that topic as you've made these rants all over PO (not just once)
gkam
1 / 5 (6) Feb 19, 2016
Let's get back to information storage. I'm not sure I want any survivors of ours to know how stupid and emotional we were, and how we killed ourselves over silly ego and emotion.
gkam
1 / 5 (7) Feb 19, 2016
"you made comments like saying i helped "mass-murder those 200,000 civilians" in Iraq"
-------------------------------------
That message was for all the goobers who got fooled into the Bush Wars. If it fits, do not blame me. I opposed that trumped-up quest for Dubya's "greatness" (please ask about that word), and said so repeatedly, having learned from the Gulf of Tonkin.

I still cannot understand how folk like you, who I consider to be more intelligent than others here, could get fooled by those draft-dodging cowards screaming "Bring 'em on!".

That was the context. I chided you for being Dubya's fool and enabler.
Estevan57
4.5 / 5 (8) Feb 19, 2016
Thanks, gkam. You killed a nice discussion by making it about yourself. Again.

"That's why the Egyptians built the pyramids,.... they just couldn't get them launched into space."
-Noumenon

A gem of a quote, Noum.
gkam
1 / 5 (7) Feb 19, 2016
Yeah, like the discussion of fractures in crystalline materials, and such.

Be glad I didn't talk about playing with our GE 2000KVP 2 MeV electron beams at Raychem, and what they do to crystalline materials.
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Feb 19, 2016
That message was for all the goobers who got fooled into the Bush Wars.
answered privately, where this conversation belongs

also: OT
political ranting, false claim and personal conjecture based on ignorance
reported
gkam
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 19, 2016
Stumpy,
Stop trying to change my disgust with our politicians into attacks on our troops. It is wrong and disgraceful.

I was talking about the civilians who boosted that war, hiding, but wanting to feel good by kicking the ass of someone else. Our troops were the victims, as they always are.

I am sick of violence, sick of the excuses for it, and sick of those who need it. I did not mean you. Unless you need more violence or thought the Bush Wars were a good idea.

Now go "report" this post, too. Meanwhile, the rest of us want to discuss the implications of this technology.

Thanks.
DonGateley
5 / 5 (1) Feb 22, 2016
To bring this discussion closer to the present, is there any realistic chance of seeing a consumer priced implementation of this in any reasonable time frame? A backup medium that I could put in a small container that could keep it under 1000 C, or in the ground, to protect against intense fire and which is immune to other common degeneration processes would give me a sense of security I don't have now.

Incremental writing capability for incremental backups would be perfect.
gkam
1 / 5 (5) Feb 22, 2016
Well, gosh, it is not just the medium which must survive and be kept viable for eons, but the reader, as well. Lots of implications there, . .

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