Study finds price of wind energy in US at an all-time low, averaging under 2.5 cent/kWh

Study finds price of wind energy in US at an all-time low, averaging under 2.5¢/kWh
Wind energy pricing is at an all-time low, according to a new report released by the US Department of Energy and prepared by Berkeley Lab. The prices offered by wind projects to utility purchasers averaged under 2.5¢/kWh for projects negotiating contracts in 2014, spurring demand for wind energy. Credit: Berkeley Lab

Wind energy pricing is at an all-time low, according to a new report released by the U.S. Department of Energy and prepared by Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab). The prices offered by wind projects to utility purchasers averaged under 2.5¢/kWh for projects negotiating contracts in 2014, spurring demand for wind energy.

"Wind energy prices—particularly in the central United States—have hit new lows, with utilities selecting as the low cost option," Berkeley Lab Senior Scientist Ryan Wiser said. "Moreover, enabled by technology advancements, wind projects are economically viable in a growing number of locations throughout the U.S."

Key findings from the U.S. Department of Energy's latest "Wind Technologies Market Report" include:

  • Wind is a credible source of new electricity generation in the United States. Wind power capacity additions in the United States rebounded in 2014, with $8.3 billion invested in 4.9 gigawatts (GW) of new capacity additions. Wind power has comprised 33% of all new U.S. electric capacity additions since 2007. Wind power currently meets almost 5% of the nation's electricity demand, and represents more than 12% of total electricity generation in nine states, and more than 20% in three states.
  • Turbine scaling is enhancing wind project performance. Since 1998-99, the average nameplate capacity of wind turbines installed in the United States has increased by 172% (to 1.9 MW in 2014), the average turbine hub height has increased by 48% (to 83 meters), and the average rotor diameter has increased by 108% (to 99 meters). This substantial scaling has enabled wind project developers to economically build projects in lower wind-speed sites, and is driving capacity factors higher for projects located in various wind resource regimes. Moreover, turbines originally designed for lower wind speeds are now regularly deployed in higher wind speed sites, further boosting project performance.
  • Low wind turbine pricing continues to push down installed project costs. Wind turbine prices have fallen 20% to 40% from their highs back in 2008, and these declines are pushing project-level costs down. Wind projects built in 2014 had an average installed cost of $1,710/kW, down almost $600/kW from the peak in 2009 and 2010.
  • Wind energy prices have reached all-time lows, improving the economic competitiveness of wind. Lower wind turbine prices and installed project costs, along with improvements in expected capacity factors, are enabling aggressive pricing. After topping out at nearly 7¢/kWh in 2009, the average levelized long-term price from wind power sales agreements signed in 2014 fell to just 2.35¢/kWh—the lowest-ever average price in the U.S. market, though admittedly focused on a sample of projects that largely hail from the lowest-priced central region of the country. The continued decline in average wind prices, along with a bit of a rebound in wholesale power prices, put wind below the bottom of the range of nationwide wholesale power prices in 2014. Wind energy contracts executed in 2014 also compare very favorably to a range of projections of the fuel costs of gas-fired generation extending out through 2040. These low prices have spurred demand for , both from traditional electric utilities and also, increasingly, from commercial customers.
  • The manufacturing supply chain continued to adjust to swings in domestic demand for wind equipment. Wind sector employment increased from 50,500 in 2013 to 73,000 in 2014. Moreover, the profitability of turbine suppliers has generally rebounded over the last two years, after a number of years in decline. For recently installed in the U.S., domestically made content is highest for nacelle assembly (>90%), towers (70-80%), and blades and hubs (45-65%), but is much lower (<20%) for most components internal to the nacelle. Exports of wind-powered generating sets from the United States rose from $16 million in 2007 to $488 million in 2014; tower exports equaled $116 million in 2014. Despite the significant growth in the domestic supply chain over the last decade, however, far more domestic manufacturing facilities closed in 2014 than opened. With an uncertain domestic market after 2016, some manufacturers have been hesitant to commit additional long-term resources to the U.S. market.
Study finds price of wind energy in US at an all-time low, averaging under 2.5&amp;cent;/kWh
This chart shows generation-weighted average levelized wind PPA prices by PPA execution date and region. Credit: Berkeley Lab

Berkeley Lab's contributions to this report were funded by the U.S. Department of Energy's Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy.


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New study finds price of wind energy in US at an all-time low; competitiveness of wind has improved

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Aug 10, 2015
Turbine scaling..turbine hub height has increased by 48% (to 83 meters)..rotor diameter has increased by 108% (to 99 meters).
"Study Links Taller Wind Turbines To More Bird Deaths"
"..strong correlation between turbine hub height and rotor diameter, .. increased bird mortality may be a result of both increased turbine height and increased rotor diameter. As turbines get taller, greater mortality may occur due to turbines extending further into altitudes that contain large numbers of flying birds."
"..turbine size coupled with our finding of greater bird collision mortality at taller turbines..impacts to wildlife populations.."
http://earthtechl...-deaths/

"If wind turbines get bigger, birds could pay the price"
http://www.nj.com...wil.html

http://summitcoun...d-farms/

Aug 10, 2015
The keywords in your comment are "may" and "could".

First thing to do is to look to see if taller turbines do, in fact, kill more birds.

If they do then there are two further actions that need to be taken:

1) Determine if there is some way to lower bird kills.

In 2009 there were 12.5 bird kills per MW installed wind capacity. In 2012 there were 9.5 bird kills per MW installed wind capacity. That's a 24% decrease. A very major improvement in bird safety.

Annual bird kills 2009 and 2012 - http://www.abcbir...dex.html

Aug 10, 2015
(My #2 disappeared during editing...)

2) Determine if taller towers are a net gain or net loss for birds.

If wind is replacing coal then there's almost certainly a net gain for them. Fossil-fueled power stations kill about 9.4 birds per GWh. (34.8x wind at 0.27 kills per GWh)

http://papers.ssr...=2198024

Aug 10, 2015
Willie does not understand the bigger turbine blades turn at slower speeds, letting birds avoid them.

Meanwhile, the estimate of cost to produce power at Vogtle is over eleven cents/kWh.

Aug 10, 2015
2.35¢/kWh—the lowest-ever average price in the U.S. market, though admittedly focused on a sample of projects that largely hail from the lowest-priced central region of the country.


Cherrypicked data, which doesn't account for the subsidies and incentives paid to these projects.

the average levelized long-term price from wind power sales agreements


Sales agreements do not show the true price.

For example, given the $1,710/kW installation cost, 3% yearly maintenance and capital cost, 25% achieved capacity factor over the lifetime including downtime, and 25 years of operation gives an actual total cost of ~$3,000/kW and 5.48¢/kWh.

So clearly there is more to the story than is being told.

Aug 10, 2015
Willie does not understand the bigger turbine blades turn at slower speeds, letting birds avoid them.


gkam doesn't understand that birds and bats don't die of just physically hitting the turbines but also by being pummeled by the turbulent wakes left behind. They have somewhat delicate lungs, which rupture and bleed when exposed to sudden pressure changes.

http://www.academ...turbines
Barotrauma is asignificant cause ofbat fatalities at windturbines

Aug 10, 2015
Annual bird kills 2009 and 2012 - http://www.abcbirds.org ..
"Those turbines killed nearly 600,000 birds in 2012, from Golden Eagles to migratory songbirds. By 2030 or before, a ten-fold increase in turbines is expected to boost annual bird mortality to 1.4 to 2 million."
"More Turbines and Towers: More Bird Strikes"
http://abcbirds.o...strikes/

Aug 10, 2015
" 25% achieved capacity factor over the lifetime"

The US average CF is now 33% (2014 DOE Wind Technology Market Report).

That number is lower than that for turbines which are now being installed and run from over 40% to over 50%. The average is pulled down by older wind farm performance.
---

"Those turbines killed nearly 600,000 birds in 2012"

That's a disputed number. That would be 12.2 birds per turbine and I don't think there is a single field study which reports that sort of kill rate. Most studies report between 0 and 2 kills per year except for early years data from Altamont Pass wind farm which had multiple problems.

I suspect that number comes from K. Smallwood's "estimates" which have never been supported by evidence.


Aug 10, 2015
Most definitely good news. Hopefully bird kills are the worst effect of the widespread use of these windmills.

Aug 10, 2015
25% is a last century number.

"Along with growing rotor diameters, turbine nameplate capacity and hub height have also increased significantly over the long term. With capacity factors now averaging 33%, up from 30% in 2000, wind turbines are converting a higher amount of wind into wind energy at a lower price."

http://energy.gov...ghts.pdf

The link is for the 2014 Wind Tech report summary that just came out today. Worth a read if one is interested in the state of US wind.

Aug 10, 2015
What Eikka misses is efficacy. When we put the wind turbines at Altamont in the late '70's, it was to provide peaking power in the afternoons for the air conditioning loads. Because of the topology, the winds increase over Altamont in the afternoons, providing us with the power we need where we need it, and exactly when we need it. Without fuel costs. Without using huge amounts of cooling water. Without toxic waste.

Oh, the alternative energy plants in Europe produced too much power, so he doesn't want us to have any.

Aug 10, 2015
Eikka doesn't have knowledge base of one person. He seems more a paid dyno-oil consultant employing a small ant army of members, such as an IRC channel, to foment obstruction and obstrufication at all turns. On trivial subjects he's just practicing obstrufication to stay in form

Aug 11, 2015
Well , let me give you some ideas , instead of counting the number of bird kills per KW wind energy .. BIRD REPELLENTS -The Ultrasound combined with sonic sound ,strobe lights ,distress calls and predator calls -can be installed at nearby on each and every Wind Turbine . Only few species of birds like "Bats" may be effected if used all time , may be you can turn them off at "night time" in order to help the baths to hunt at those areas that "baths are located" , since few birds actually fly at night time . In fact you can make it "mandatory" regulatory equipment for the large Wind Turbines ..
Birds can change their nesting locations very easily indeed ,they are not stubborn to the contrary vey dynamic in their decision making –they have to be , they only need little help"warning" . To be sure " Double blind study extending for reasonable period of time" will surely confirm the effectiveness of the BIRD REPELLENT system

Aug 11, 2015
The US average CF is now 33% (2014 DOE Wind Technology Market Report).
That number is lower than that for turbines which are now being installed and run from over 40% to over 50%. The average is pulled down by older wind farm performance

Eikka has been told over and over that capacity factor is now much higher


I have told you over and over, that the capacity factor is first and foremost a factor of location and not turbine age or technology. The biggest factor that influences capacity factor is the local mean wind speed, which, the higher the larger the CF - so naturally when you have a number of turbines in very good locations, the average CF goes up, and when you run out of good locations, the CF goes down.

And capacity factors between 40-50% are not achieved on-shore, but off-shore which is twice as expensive.

It's disingenuous to pretend that you can slap a wind turbine in just any state and get 33% capacity factor. It just doesn't happen.

Aug 11, 2015
When we put the wind turbines at Altamont in the late '70's, it was to provide peaking power in the afternoons for the air conditioning loads.


You've told that story twelve times in twelve different ways, and it's always wrong:

Reference:
Regulatory Choices
A Perspective on Developments in Energy Policy
EDITED BY
Richard J. Gilbert
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS
page 252.
http://publishing...ew=print
Comparison of the \ Pass wind farms output with PG&E system demand on peak demand days, July 17-18, 1984.

Picture: http://publishing...0025.jpg

the winds increase over Altamont in the afternoons


The Altamont Pass didn't even come online until 6 PM and was dead silent both noon and afternoon on peak demand days. In general, it was in almost total anti-phase to PG&E grid demand variation.

Aug 11, 2015
What Eikka misses is efficacy.


I understand efficacy very well. What you don't understand is that wind power doesn't have it. In Altamont Pass, California, and Texas alike, it goes mis-step with energy demand:

For example:

http://www.realcl...258.html
Wind Power Almost Perfectly Out of Phase with Demand

The reason is a well-known principle among meteorologists. Air currents are the most torpid on hot summer afternoons and don't begin to stir until the earth cools at night.


Of course there is the argument to be made that wind power works complementary to solar power, and that cannot be denied, but your explaination of the situation is just plain bull. You have no actual idea how these systems behave.

Aug 11, 2015
This comment has been removed by a moderator.

Aug 11, 2015
The average is pulled down by older wind farm performance.


There are very few old wind turbines to do that in the US for two reasons. First, they didn't build many back then, and secondly the old turbines didn't have much capacity, so they're not a significant factor.

See graph: http://c1cleantec...A-14.jpg

More than 90% of US wind power capacity is from 2004 or younger, so it's practically all new. It's been around for 10 years or less.

Then. Given the 33% average capacity factor, the argument doesn't change. Just the numbers in the calculation.

We also happen to know that the PTC was extended to projects in construction in 2014, so the turbines we're talking about DID recieve at least $23/MWh in federal subsidies, which means the 2.35¢/kWh is in reality at least 4.65 ¢/kWh.

And that's for the best case, best locations.

Aug 11, 2015
Turbine scaling..turbine hub height has increased by 48% (to 83 meters)..rotor diameter has increased by 108% (to 99 meters).
"Study Links Taller Wind Turbines To More Bird Deaths"
"..strong correlation between turbine hub height and rotor diameter, .. increased bird mortality may be a result of both increased turbine height and increased rotor diameter. As turbines get taller, greater mortality may occur due to turbines extending further into altitudes that contain large numbers of flying birds."
"..turbine size coupled with our finding of greater bird collision mortality at taller turbines..impacts to wildlife populations.."
http://earthtechl...-deaths/

Yeah, we all know it's all them friggin Green Lobby-Men trying to take away our guns.

Aug 11, 2015
price of wind energy in US at an all-time low, averaging under 2.5 cent/kWh
Mark Twain "There are lies, damned lies and statistics." It seriously depends, whether actual or nominal (projected) power of wind plants is considered.


Well, we always calculate all the hidden costs of alternatives making them look very pricey... I have however yet to see a similar calculation regarding fossil fuels... because we always compare to them as if they were gratis in terms of extraction, transport and derived costs. And well, yes, subsidies.

Aug 11, 2015
I have however yet to see a similar calculation regarding fossil fuels


I have. Coal is about 4x as expensive as what is says on the tin in terms of actual acute effects on health and environment, the rest less so.

The subject is somewhat confused, since some people tend to count in costs that nobody who is alive today has or will actually pay and then pretend as if we do, often making a false dilemma out of it. For example, pitching fossil fuels against renewables without considering nuclear power.


Aug 11, 2015
Oh, the alternative energy plants in Europe produced too much power, so he doesn't want us to have any.


Everyone can have as many as they like. I'm simply reminding what happens when you do.

The US has every opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others and do things differently - don't cripple your economy by hysterical doomsday politics, don't further impoverish the poor, don't destabilize your grids, don't give in to corrupt policies that only benefit a select industry at the expense of everyone else.

Unfortunately the US is doing the exact same mistakes under the same propaganda because you're not looking or listening - and people like you gkam, simply don't care. You even willingly and knowingly lie at every opportunity to obfuscate facts and spread propaganda.

I wish you'd have the compassion to stop.


Aug 11, 2015

Unfortunately the US is doing the exact same mistakes under the same propaganda because you're not looking or listening - and people like you gkam, simply don't care. You even willingly and knowingly lie at every opportunity to obfuscate facts and spread propaganda.

I wish you'd have the compassion to stop.



You are right, we are starving here in Holland, all the fault of the Green Lobby!!!

Aug 11, 2015
@Eikka

Objectivity is one of the hardest things to find in our society today. My impression is that there are so many vested interests chasing profits and not truth, that all these false ideologies develop. None of which is rooted in objective analyses. We're missing the kinds of solid engineering that cover the entire picture end to end. There are certain types of people that try their hardest to be dispassionately clinical and simply seek truth, even if it turns their world upside down or torpedoes their business. Most people do not fall into this category. As soon as you involve non-scientific and non-engineering personnel in the process, it becomes distorted and self perpetuating. Very sad.

Aug 11, 2015
" - and people like you gkam, simply don't care. You even willingly and knowingly lie at every opportunity to obfuscate facts and spread propaganda."
--------------------------------------

You lost the argument. Now, you are emotionally out of control.

You would not last ten seconds in Silicon Valley or in many places in California with your attitude.

Aug 11, 2015
What is the price of wholesale power from the new Vogtle reactors, when they come online? First, we have significant subsidies for nukes. We require a Police State to guard the fuels and wastes. And we still have no way to store the nasty waste.

But the real reason nukes will die is the costs of power from Vogtle just went from $0.11/kWh to $0.13/kWh. And that is with massive subsidies!!

Aug 11, 2015
"I have told you over and over, that the capacity factor is first and foremost a factor of location and not turbine age or technology."

And the DOE along with the entire wind industry and all the data says otherwise, so who are we to believe?

"And capacity factors between 40-50% are not achieved on-shore, but off-shore which is twice as expensive."

Here are some of the US onshore wind farms that reported >40% CF in 2012.

Buffalo Ridge I LLC SD 40.0
MinnDakota Wind LLC SD 42.7
Rolling Thunder Wind Farm SD 43.1
Wessington Springs SD 47.2
Prairie Winds SD1 SD 49.9
Day County Wind LLC SD 50.6
Crossroads Wind Farm OK 46.1
Blue Canyon Windpower VI LLC OK 46.1
Minco Wind I, LLC OK 46.3
Weatherford Wind Energy Center OK 48.2
Flat Water Wind Farm NE 44.8
TPW Petersburg NE 46.8
Laredo Ridge Wind LLC NE 50.7
EC&R Panther Creek Wind Farm I TX 40.3
Cedro Hill Wind LLC TX 40.4
Wolf Ridge Wind TX 42.8
Sunray Wind I TX 43.4
McAdoo Wind Energy LLC TX 44.5

Aug 11, 2015


Well, we always calculate all the hidden costs of alternatives making them look very pricey... I have however yet to see a similar calculation regarding fossil fuels... because we always compare to them as if they were gratis in terms of extraction, transport and derived costs. And well, yes, subsidies.


The external cost of burning coal is extremely high. Simply tallying public health impacts, coal costs the United States economy $140 billion to $242 billion a year.

http://green.blog...en-cost/

Coal-fired power stations cost the European Union up to €42.8 billion a year in health costs associated with coal-fired power stations.

http://www.evwind...ar/32333

That's just the health costs....

Aug 11, 2015
"The subject is somewhat confused, since some people tend to count in costs that nobody who is alive today has or will actually pay and then pretend as if we do, often making a false dilemma out of it. For example, pitching fossil fuels against renewables without considering nuclear power. "

It is morally wrong to knowingly create problems and dangers for the generations that will follow us.

Aug 11, 2015
The external cost of burning coal is extremely high. Simply tallying public health impacts, coal costs..
"Nuclear power replaces fossil fuels, while wind has the effect of locking them in"
"But worse, due to its intermittent nature, wind requires significant fossil fuel capacity to ensure that demand is met. Wind is in fact enabled by fossil fuels, and locks in their use, while nuclear replaces fossil fuels, in particular the most polluting baseload coal plants."
http://www.herald...them_in/

Aug 11, 2015
Two and one-half cents. That's death for Filthy Fuels, Willie. Look up the cost of power from Vogtle.

Aug 11, 2015
Willie uses a letter to the editor of a newspaper as his source of Absolute Technical Truth.

Why do we doubt the value of his sources?

Aug 11, 2015
"Nuclear power replaces fossil fuels, while wind has the effect of locking them in"
"But worse, due to its intermittent nature, wind requires significant fossil fuel capacity to ensure that demand is met."

Natural gas is only a temporary way to fill in around wind and solar. Storage will take over from NG.

Nuclear can't replace fossil fuels without using large amounts of storage or load-following. Since nuclear is already too expensive to use we won't go that route.

Aug 11, 2015
Hmm... wind energy is so cheap, yet..
Despite the significant growth in the domestic supply chain over the last decade, however, far more domestic manufacturing facilities closed in 2014 than opened. With an uncertain domestic market after 2016, some manufacturers have been hesitant to commit additional long-term resources to the U.S. market.

I suspect the real story is buried in those 2 sentences.

Aug 11, 2015
Goricle does not understand new technology shake-out.

How many new alternative energy plants going in? How many new coal plants? How many new nukes? Read the writing on the wall.

Aug 11, 2015
Hmm... wind energy is so cheap, yet..
Despite the significant growth in the domestic supply chain over the last decade, however, far more domestic manufacturing facilities closed in 2014 than opened. With an uncertain domestic market after 2016, some manufacturers have been hesitant to commit additional long-term resources to the U.S. market.

I suspect the real story is buried in those 2 sentences.


When younger voters did not show up to vote in 2012 Republicans gained control of Congress. By screwing around with the wind subsidy program the US wind industry was severely disrupted.

When demand is intentionally destroyed one expects manufacturing to suffer.

" uncertain domestic market after 2016" is code for "If we don't take control away from the fossil fuel industry that is now so influential in Washington we can expect to get screwed even worse after the next election.

Aug 11, 2015
"wind and solar in particular—is simply too volatile from minute to minute to produce the steady power we need."
"The Fantasy of 100% Renewable Energy"
http://www.thecri...ewables/
gkam and his mates love to stay believing in their own fantasy, a world powered by unicorn fart energy.

Aug 11, 2015
"Nuclear produces virtually no pollution by volume compared with any other energy source and is vastly more efficient in terms of materials and land used."
"The truth of the matter is that, for all of the cost declines in renewable energy production, wind and solar power are necessarily intermittent."
"The irony of the nuclear power issue is that, for all of the concerns over nuclear power accidents, there are actually very few deaths associated with nuclear."
"For instance, no one has died in the wake of the Fukushima plant accident, the worst accident in a generation. The World Health Organization reported that health risks are minimal from the "disaster" in fact."
http://oilprice.c...eds.html

Aug 11, 2015
"a world powered by unicorn fart energy. "
---------------------------------

Did you read the story? 2.5 cents/kWh.

The cost to produce power at Vogtle is now way up there, in double-digits. You ought to be praying for more unicorns.

Aug 11, 2015
"Nuclear energy: safe, clean, nothing to fear despite fear-mongering"
"What about the Fukushima nuclear meltdown and all the heroic deaths of workers there, exposing themselves to lethal doses of radiation while performing super-human exploits to save the reactor? Well, what about them? No one died."
"And given the official WHO findings that at no time were levels of radioactivity in the region a realistic health threat, the conclusion is clear: fear of radiation, among the population and especially among the government officials, was the real culprit in March 2011 and thereafter."
"nuclear energy supplies many fold more units of energy per "greenhouse gas" emitted than any other source"
http://acsh.org/2...ngering/

Aug 11, 2015
Hey, Willie, cut and paste one of your postings which discusses the relative costs of power from new wind versus new nukes.

Aug 11, 2015
2.5 cents/kWh.
Why pay for it? If it can be for free, just install a windmill in a backyard, or a solar panel on a roof.

Aug 11, 2015
Goricle does not understand new technology shake-out.

How many new alternative energy plants going in? How many new coal plants? How many new nukes? Read the writing on the wall.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present gskam, the know-it-all.
Well, actually the only thing he knows is how to say a lot without telling us anything.


Aug 11, 2015
see Germany, Denmark, Costa Rica..
Germany and Denmark backed by fossil fuels, Costa Rica backed by hydroelectric.
Excluding hydro, renewable energy has proven to be unreliable as baseload, needing to be compensated by fossil fuels.
"A large proportion of electricity is produced from coal;"
http://en.wikiped..._Denmark
Nuclear is our best carbon-free option.

Aug 11, 2015
Hm... 600,000 bird kills in one year from wind turbines eh?

So how many bird deaths each year from cats?

Look it up. It's not hard.

So.... What's more deadly to the bird population? Are you opposed to cats?

Aug 11, 2015
I love unicorn farts. I hope one day my whole home will be powered by nothing but unicorn farts.

The best part is that unicorn farts are free and don't come with a "community service fee" and a "debt retirement fee" and then taxed and taxed again.

Aug 11, 2015
Unicorns are not radioactive.

Aug 11, 2015
So how many bird deaths each year from cats?..
So.... What's more deadly to the bird population? Are you opposed to cats?
Windmills are more ecologically friendly than cats.
http://www.youtub...xBhqcjqY

Aug 11, 2015
"Study finds price of wind energy in US at an all-time low, averaging under 2.5 cent/kWh"

This headline highlights the difference between the views of green energy advocates and real economists. The advocates jump for glee at 2.5 cents/KWH where as the economists wonder why they need to sell something for half price. For you see, when something sells for far below market value it just means it is less desirable for some reason.

Aug 11, 2015
"For you see, when something sells for far below market value it just means it is less desirable for some reason."
------------------------------------

Go see how desirable the price of power from Vogtle is going to be.

Aug 12, 2015
" And if company A can make a product for less money that company B - then company A gets to undercut company B - and determine the new market value. Guess you missed free market 101...."

But Eikka has already proven that they can't make a profit selling the power for 2.5 cents. So that argument does not hold water. When you are able to show me a true yearly profit and loss statement for these companies I will concede your point if it is proven that 2.5 cents can generate a profit.

Aug 12, 2015
So what determines market value? Isn't that determined by the free market?


There is no free market in energy.
The price is whatever the govt wants it to be.

Aug 12, 2015
"When you are able to show me a true yearly profit and loss statement for these companies I will concede your point if it is proven that 2.5 cents can generate a profit."
---------------------------------

Hilarious! Who are you to decide? They do not need your permission, nor that of Eikka. You are just anonymous text on the internet. They are real.


Aug 12, 2015
Eikka has "proven" nothing. He also "proved" other things, like the $17,000 battery, facts about the two YAT-37D aircraft we had at Test Pilot School, and a plethora of other nonsense. He simply hates alternative energy, absolutely TERRIFIED it may cost him more money!

Aug 12, 2015
"When you are able to show me a true yearly profit and loss statement for these companies I will concede your point if it is proven that 2.5 cents can generate a profit."

Wind farms can't make a profit at 2.5 cents (or are at least highly unlikely to be profitable at that price point). 2.5 cents is the subsidized price. The subsidy probably lets the wind farm sell below production cost.

Wind farms get a choice between a 30% investment tax credit (ITC) or a 2.3c/kWh production tax credit (PTC) for the first 10 years of production. Without access to corporate financials one can't calculate the "value" of the ITC so let's look at the PTC. (The financial impact should be roughly the same.)

(running out of characters...)

Aug 12, 2015
"Wind farms can't make a profit at 2.5 cents (or are at least highly unlikely to be profitable at that price point). 2.5 cents is the subsidized price. The subsidy probably lets the wind farm sell below production cost."

Thank You BW! Thus the headline is purposely misleading. This sort of thing is a major problem with the entire green movement. The end always justifies the means and truth is irrelevant.

Aug 12, 2015
Wind (and solar) farms sell their electricity before they are built. They sign a power purchase agreement (PPA) with a buyer (utility) and then start building. They are not going to sign a contract to sell at a loss.

PPAs generally run for 20 to 25 years. A 2.3c/kWh PTC over the first 10 years means an average of 1.15c over 20 years or 0.9c over 25 years. That 0.9 to 1.15 subsidy likely covers profits and a bit of expense.

But. But before someone goes on a tear about RE subsidies - all electricity sources are subsidized. Wind and solar are subsidized less than coal and natural gas.

Wind and solar receive "out in the open" subsidies. (And those subsidies are disappearing in the US.)

Coal and natural gas make gigantic messes which they are not required to pay for. Taxpayers pay the external costs of coal and NG.

The unsubsidized cost of wind is about 4c/kWh. The unsubsidized cost of coal is over 15c/kWh.

Aug 12, 2015
"Thank You BW! Thus the headline is purposely misleading. This sort of thing is a major problem with the entire green movement. The end always justifies the means and truth is irrelevant."

No. I gave you a shovelful of truth in the second part of my comment.

Wind PPAs average 2.5c/kWh in 2014. That is the truth.

The actual cost of wind production is likely just under 4c/kWh in the US 'interior'. That is also the truth.

The price of wind from just under 4c/kWh to 2.5c/kWh due to subsidies. More truth.

Coal is highly subsidized, much more subsidized than wind, but the subsidies are paid indirectly rather than through tax credits like wind (and solar) receive.

And that is the huge truth that we need to understand.

Coal is an incredibly expensive way to make electricity. (Nuclear is right up there with it.)

Aug 12, 2015
Well I have a plan to make wind power even better. What say we raise the subsidy to 4c/kwh and then the farms could PAY the distributors 1c/kwh to market their power. That would make for even better headlines.

Aug 12, 2015
OK the math is all cockeyed. We should raise the subsidy to 5c/kwh and claim that solar power is too cheap to meter or free.

Aug 12, 2015
OK the math is all cockeyed. We should raise the subsidy to 5c/kwh and claim that solar power is too cheap to meter or free.


Do you wish to be taken seriously as a participant in this conversation or are you checking out?

Look, all electricity generation in the US is subsidized. The real cost of new coal, were we to build any, would be close to 20c/kWh. The real cost of new nuclear, when it comes on line, will be well over 15c/kWh, 13c/kWh for the Vogtle reactors plus subsidies.

Wind and solar have received only a small portion of what fossil fuels and nuclear have received. You may not like it, but the fact is, wind and solar are our least expensive ways to bring new capacity online. Coal and nuclear are economic failures.

Aug 12, 2015
Who is talking new plants, just stop closing the ones in service now!!!! Electricity usage in US has been declining anyway. And yes unfavorable regulations can make any type of new construction impossible.

Aug 12, 2015
Who is talking new plants, just stop closing the ones in service now!!!! Electricity usage in US has been declining anyway. And yes unfavorable regulations can make any type of new construction impossible.


We must close coal plants. That is not an option if we wish to have any chance of avoiding extreme climate change.

If you're talking about not closing existing nuclear plants then we're going to need to start subsidizing paid off reactors. Which we have started doing. The five paid off Exelon reactors in Illinois which have been losing money for over five years will now be subsidized with consumers electricity costs raised to cover the subsidy.

There are more than a dozen US reactors which are in danger of going bankrupt. Wind and natural gas have take away their profitability. To keep them going may mean increasing utility rates in those districts.

Aug 12, 2015
There are more than a dozen US reactors which are in danger of going bankrupt.

So?

Fascism == socialism.


Aug 12, 2015
I understand efficacy very well. What you don't understand is that wind power doesn't have it. In Altamont Pass, California, and Texas alike, it goes mis-step with energy demand:

For example:

http://www.realcl...258.html
Wind Power Almost Perfectly Out of Phase with Demand

The reason is a well-known principle among meteorologists. Air currents are the most torpid on hot summer afternoons and don't begin to stir until the earth cools at night. -Eikka


Cherry-picked data from one state during just one week in August 2011, followed by a completely incorrect quote. Actual wind experts who studied global diurnal wind patterns say this: "Surface wind speed peaks in the early afternoon over most of the globe." http://www.cgd.uc...aper.pdf

Aug 12, 2015
Ryggy, why do you ignore the questions you cannot answer?

Why not just admit failure?

Here it is: What is your favorite libertarian government? Are there any? At all? Really??

I wonder why, . . . .

Aug 12, 2015
"Wind and natural gas have take away their profitability. To keep them going may mean increasing utility rates in those districts.

Be honest BW don't say wind say SUBSIDIZED wind. As of 2012 nuclear is cheaper than gas.

http://www.eia.go..._04.html

Also gas is a much more valuable fuel from a transportation standpoint than coal and nuclear and it should not be wasted producing electricity since it's supply is much more limited.

Aug 12, 2015
Ryggy, why do you ignore the questions you cannot answer?
Why do you fail to answer these...

What are you being treated for down at the VA psycho ward?

How could you have an MS while being a dropout?

How can you claim that you were a senior engr at PG&E while evidence shows that they do not hire people for senior level positions without degrees and licenses?

Why wont you post your complete CV along with hire and fire dates, on your website?

How come there are so many questions you yourself refuse to answer about the shit you make up?

Is it because your past is a lie?

Aug 12, 2015
Please get help, otto.

Aug 12, 2015
"The idiosyncratic physics of electricity will ultimately doom the aspirational goals of the new 1,560 page Clean Power Plan, more than will an army of lobbyists, lawsuits and laborious studies. It is an inconvenient truth that electricity is profoundly different from every other energy source society uses; it is, in fact, weird.

In energy equivalent terms, the nation's electric utilities deliver 5 oil supertankers every day. This feat is performed on a network where operational dynamics and disasters can happen at near lightspeed. And here is the critical singular fact: Over 99 percent of all electricity has to be generated at the same instant that it is consumed. Try doing that with wheat, steel, or oil."
http://www.forbes...s=energy

Aug 12, 2015
In the end the decisions on whether to maintain or expand wind power capacity will be made on the basis of economics - as always.

Aug 12, 2015
Ryggy, stop hiding, and show us a single libertarian government.

Why are there none?

Aug 12, 2015
In the end the decisions on whether to maintain or expand wind power capacity will be made on the basis of economics - as always.

After much wasted wealth.

Aug 12, 2015
"Be honest BW don't say wind say SUBSIDIZED wind. As of 2012 nuclear is cheaper than gas."

If you look up the thread then you know that I have talked about the price of wind being subsidized. You simply ignore that.

Nuclear is also subsidized. You choose to ignore that as well.

Aug 12, 2015
In the end the decisions on whether to maintain or expand wind power capacity will be made on the basis of economics - as always.

After much wasted wealth.


Yes, people invested in coal are losing money right now.

The same thing happened as digital replaced film (Kodak), computers replaced typewriters (Olivetti, Royal), calculators replaced slide rules, trains replaced stagecoaches, and bronze points put flint knappers out of business.


Aug 12, 2015
The same thing happened as digital replaced film (Kodak), computers replaced typewriters (Olivetti, Royal), calculators replaced slide rules, trains replaced stagecoaches, and bronze points put flint knappers out of business.
Steam power has already replaced medieval sails, windmills and wind powered factories.

Aug 12, 2015
Yes, people invested in coal are losing money right now.

"The same thing happened as digital replaced film (Kodak), computers replaced typewriters (Olivetti, Royal), calculators replaced slide rules, trains replaced stagecoaches, and bronze points put flint knappers out of business."

Thanks for that post BW, I never realized that the above examples were due to government mandates.

Aug 12, 2015
Yes, people invested in coal are losing money right now.

"The same thing happened as digital replaced film (Kodak), computers replaced typewriters (Olivetti, Royal), calculators replaced slide rules, trains replaced stagecoaches, and bronze points put flint knappers out of business."

Thanks for that post BW, I never realized that the above examples were due to government mandates.


You really think government money and support played no role in some of those transitions?


Aug 12, 2015
"While price remains the primary factor in the short-term race between gas and coal, four other factors help gas displace coal in the long term, according to EIA:"

"Efficiency: The efficiency of power generation from gas means it competes with coal even when it costs 1.5 times as much. "When the ratio of natural gas prices to coal prices is approximately 1.5 or lower, a typical natural gas-fired combined-cycle plant has lower generating costs than a typical coal-fired plant."
Competitiveness: "For new builds, natural gas and renewables generally are more competitive than coal."
Flexibility: "In general, combined-cycle (gas) units are considered to be more flexible than steam turbines. They can ramp their output up and down more easily, and their start-up and shutdown procedures involve less time and expense."

http://www.forbes...ise-eia/

Cont.

Aug 12, 2015
Regulation: "The interaction of fuel prices and environmental rules is a key factor in coal plant retirements. AEO2013 assumes that all coal-fired plants have flue gas desulfurization equipment (scrubbers) or dry sorbent injection systems installed by 2016 to comply with the Mercury and Air Toxics Standards. Higher coal prices, lower wholesale electricity prices (often tied to natural gas prices), and reduced use may make investment in such equipment uneconomical in some cases, resulting in plant retirements."

http://www.forbes...ise-eia/


Aug 12, 2015
The same thing happened as digital replaced film

This was the result of free competition, not a Regulatory State.

Aug 12, 2015

Nuclear is also subsidized.


Of course it is. That's why Ontarians pay huge "Debt retirement fee's"

What debt? Where did this debt come from? Oh that was the 20 billion dollars spent on the Darlington nuclear plant. We get to pay it off, $50/month for the next 40 years PER meter.

Of course without having to pay for the fuel, the buildings, the waste disposal, Nuclear is SUPER cheap.

Just think how cheap driving would be if you didn't have to pay for the car, the gas, the cleaning etc. WOW!

Aug 12, 2015
So, I see another Chicken Little LIAR has joined the cult. Nuclear is not as cheap as your lies.
http://www.fin.go...tax/drc/

Aug 12, 2015
Great link Mr. Goracle!!

Aug 12, 2015
Their site seems to blur the difference between stranded assets and those producing revenue. Why does it not reveal to us what assets they mismanaged?

Aug 12, 2015
So, I see another Chicken Little LIAR has joined the cult. Nuclear is not as cheap as your lies.
http://www.fin.go...tax/drc/


Lord Jag must have more up to date info than a year old report I found, but 12.9 billion dollars isn't chump change.http://www.thesta...ort.html


Aug 13, 2015
I did a really gross calculation of the cost/kwh involved. If the refurbished plant puts out 3500MWH as the old one did and lasts for 20 years that works out to about 2.2c/kwh for the rehab. Average for a plant is about 30 to 40 years I think so it could be as low as 1.1c/kwh.

Of course you have to add the costs of running the plant to that figure to get a real final cost/kwh.

Aug 13, 2015
"Except I did not include the cost of running the plant - or decommissioning the plant - which are of course significant costs. So I really said nothing of any significance - but I sure want people to take me seriously when I argue against renewable energy."

Onions I was just commenting on the viability of rehabbing an existing plant. Also, one would think that decommissioning costs would be about the same even if the plant is permanently closed and not refurbished.

Aug 13, 2015
Onions say you wanted to replace this plant with wind power, you would also have to include the cost of a new gas plant that will be needed to provide power when the wind is not blowing. 3500 MW coming on and off line at random intervals is very hard to compensate for.

Aug 13, 2015
"3500 MW coming on and off line at random intervals is very hard to compensate for."
---------------------------------

What do you know about it? Do you think you know more than the professionals actually doing it? First of all, the grid is the aggregate, and all wind sources do not start and stop at the same time. Only those with no knowledge at all make the mistake of thinking all of our sources will be the same.


Aug 13, 2015
I agree. The Globe and Mail is a tabloid with political prejudice guiding its stories. Deceit is the word for it. What did they tell you about Iraq? Hmmmm? Did they allege "WMD!"?

Aug 13, 2015
Please get help, otto
Plenty of people here willing to help in exposing your lies. In this thread
http://phys.org/n...ent.html

-ira caught you lying yet again, just yesterday.

Catching you is easy. Youre not smart enough to realize just how transparent your lies are.

This is the result of a disease which makes you think youre far smarter than anyone who disagrees with you.

Thats why you think you can make up outrageously stupid lies such as fallout being the main cause of lung cancer, and get away with it.

Its the best that your stunted intellect can come up with.

Aug 13, 2015
It's a damn shame that a science based site like this one does not put a little effort into keeping the crap and petty bickering out of its forum.

This could be a great place for people interested in science to discuss science.

A little moderating could go a long way....

Aug 13, 2015
Bob, help me in getting rid of the snipers here. Look at the posts of otto the monomaniac. If I dare mention experience, he goes wild, in his public display of psychopathy.

We can discuss the phenomena of alternative systems taking over so rapidly, and the beneficial effects on all of us, if we can get these cranks off the forum. This otto character has already bragged about being a pseudonym of someone playing what he calls "games" with the rest of us.

When he goes out of his way to attack others instead of debating the issue, report him, and sooner or later we can get him off the forum, or drive him to use Tooti again.

Aug 13, 2015
This could be a great place for people interested in science to discuss science.
"Two-Thirds of Scientists Support Building More Nuclear Power Plants"
http://www.mrctv....snb2:IWk

Aug 13, 2015
Will they buy the power from them? The Vogtle reactors are now up to 13 cents to PRODUCE a kWh, while wind is less than three cents and PV under four cents. And they have NO toxic waste or fuel costs.

Aug 13, 2015
Willie, would YOU buy power from Vogtle?

Tell us!!

Aug 13, 2015
..while wind is less than three cents and PV under four cents..
It could be for free, but even so, it needs to be backed by fossils or by expensive/polluting batteries due to intermittency/out-of-phase with demand.
There is a lot of contradictory information about the final costs. So what is the real price?
..NO toxic waste..
lithium, trichlorosilane, radioactive rare-earth metals, silicon tetrachloride, sulfur dioxide, hydrogen fluoride, sulfuric acid, phosphine gas, arsine gas, lead...

Aug 13, 2015
Bob, help me in getting rid of the snipers here. Look at the posts of otto the monomaniac. If I dare mention experience, he goes wild, in his public display of psychopathy
Im not a liar george.

I dont claim that 'experience' has taught me that fallout is the main cause of lung cancer or that Pu is raining down on Idaho.

I dont make up facts.

I reference what I post.

I dont come here to talk about myself.

You do all these things.

Youre the CAUSE of all attacks by the good people here at physorg.

YOURE the reason why your ratings continue to fall precipitously.

YOU DONT BELONG HERE. You probably dont belong anywhere except perhaps as an inpatient.

I and others will continue to expose your lies as long as you post them here.

Aug 13, 2015
This could be a great place for people interested in science to discuss science.

Then physorg should stick to posting science articles instead of AGW and socialist propaganda.

Aug 13, 2015
Lord Jag must have more up to date info than a year old report I found

I never thought someone would actually check my facts.

I was going from memory. I knew it was more than 10B but less than 50.

What happened was we paid for it for several years, but then the province was going broke paying for it and instead of raising taxes - the usual way to pay for these - they decided to give OPG a loan for the remaining amount - plus a little interest of course.

It's inflated a few times since then. They're doing the ole - "Lets add this maintenance job to the tab and they can pay that too" thing.

I'm sure by the time we stop paying for it 20B will be a low number.

Aug 13, 2015
I'm one of the mods on another site and we simply do not put up with the crap I see here.

People are free to post another opinion as long as they can support their claims with facts. People who engage in personal attacks or post FUD are simply banned.

People who disrupt discussions with off-topic posts are also shown the door.

It doesn't take much effort to run a discussion forum but it does take an intention to do so.

Aug 13, 2015
We can discuss the phenomena of alternative systems taking over so rapidly, and the beneficial effects on all of us, if we can get these cranks off the forum.

A better world, through censorship.


Aug 13, 2015
"A better world, through censorship."
------------------------------------

Oh, stop it. All we want to do is stop the personal attacks so loved by you and otto and others. They drive any real commenters from this forum. When they see the fixation of otto, they know this is not a serious forum at all, but has been taken over by snipers and "sock puppets", infected with psychological diseases.

Aug 13, 2015
We can discuss the phenomena of alternative systems taking over so rapidly, and the beneficial effects on all of us, if we can get these cranks off the forum.

A better world, through censorship.



If you want to call culling personal attacks, posting clearly false information, and disrupting conversations censorship, so be it.

I call it "Get the hell out of my livingroom with your garbage".

Aug 13, 2015
censorship
Fidel Castro, Kim Jong-un, dictators in general, punish any individual who is against their ideological truths. Eco-fascists and Nazi-environmentalists seem to be in this way.
I still prefer democracy.
Democracy does not solve problems, but it allows problems to come up to be solved.

Aug 13, 2015
Willie, this thread is about the extremely low cost of wind power.

We are comparing it to the projected cost of power from the nukes at Vogtle. The Votgle nukes seem to be between four and five times the cost from wind and PV. Then, there are the problems with the high-level nuclear waste we cannot store yet, after decades of trying.

Aug 13, 2015
censorship
Fidel Castro, Kim Jong-un, dictators in general, punish any individual who is against their ideological truths. Eco-fascists and Nazi-environmentalists seem to be in this way.
I still prefer democracy.
Democracy does not solve problems, but it allows problems to come up to be solved.


Science kicks liars to the curb.

Aug 13, 2015
Votgle
Huge industrial parks will have their demand continuously supplied by carbon-free energy.
"two new 1,100-megawatt(1.1 GW) AP1000 units"
Ecologically, it is worth the price.
Millions birds, bats, tortoises, and other endangered species, will thank us.

Aug 13, 2015
All we want to do is stop the personal attacks

Perhaps you shouldn't have engaged in such a behavior as to make people resent you so violently. I know, I know...you're innocent.

I call it "Get the hell out of my livingroom with your garbage".

The 1st amendment does not protect language you agree with. It protects language you disagree with.

That said, I understand your intent, and agree with it. Unfortunately, the internet equivalent of a punch in the mouth (muting) doesn't' seem to be popular here. Has something to do with the last word being right I suppose.

Aug 13, 2015
high-level nuclear waste
Storage of nuclear waste is a purely political issue, not to be confused with a technical, or engineering problem.
Advanced reactors use up all the transuranics (plutonium and uranium) so there isn't any left requiring long term storage and protection.
Nuclear is the safest energy production today and there is no reason to believe new advanced nuclear plants will be less safe.

Aug 13, 2015
"if you don't like the articles Physorg posts


Bob asserted this article is about science. This article has nothing to do with science.

So either demand physorg publish science articles or deal with objections to the propaganda.


Aug 13, 2015
It seems to be hate that drives you to be a mean spirited little troll. I wish you would stop being so negative.

Oh, sweet irony...what would I do without you? hahahahahahaha

Aug 13, 2015
"The 1st amendment does not protect language you agree with. It protects language you disagree with."

Perhaps you were absent the day they covered the 1st Amendment in junior high?

Look it up, give it a read, catch up....

Aug 13, 2015
"Willie, this thread is about the extremely low cost of wind power. "

Actually Gkam the thread is about the extremely low value of wind power to be more precise. About 1/2 that of conventional electricity.

Aug 13, 2015
"The 1st amendment does not protect language you agree with. It protects language you disagree with."

Perhaps you were absent the day they covered the 1st Amendment in junior high?

Look it up, give it a read, catch up....

You'll need to be specific re: where you think I went wrong. As far as I can tell, I nailed it.

Are you sure you're a mod on another site? You're lack of specificity when addressing something you don't agree with isn't something a seasoned mod does.

I hope you're not getting into the false persona game. There is far too much of it going on around here.

Aug 13, 2015
Denglish the 1st amendment protects freedom of speech and not language. I think that this is what he was referring to.

Aug 13, 2015
Bob, denglish is like the others here: They will blast you with sarcasm and personal attacks until you leave, like the others.

The guy who bleats: "I hope you're not getting into the false persona game." hides behind a pseudonym.


Aug 13, 2015
Science is a broad subject - and renewable energy certainly comes under that umbrella.


Science is a very specific, well defined process.

For greenie, slap the word 'study' if front of something and it is science.

Aug 13, 2015
Denglish the 1st amendment protects freedom of speech and not language. I think that this is what he was referring to.

I hope not. In the context, it is the same thing, and it should be readily recognized; especially by a person that needs to understand the content of posts.

and try to contribute to the site - by supporting what they are doing

Interesting.

who spend their time trashing the articles

Requiring good content and presenting feedback is not trashing; it is communicating. Are you sure you're a trained communicator?

seems you have an agenda of hate.

OMG I've been PC'd! I am an awful person.

The guy who bleats: "I hope you're not getting into the false persona game.", truly hopes that; people trying to build internet credibility with false rl claims are sad.

Fixed it for ya.


Aug 13, 2015
I was going from memory.
--Lord_jag_off
So, you did just pull it out of your arse.

Aug 13, 2015
Yes, goricle he got it from you.

Aug 13, 2015
this thread is about the extremely low cost of wind power.
Wind and solar are ever more worthless commercially,
while nuclear is proven more worthwhile ecologically.

Aug 13, 2015
as long as they can support their claims with facts
Gkam often makes up his own facts and lies about his credentials in order to support what he posts.

Do you expect the people here to ignore this behavior?

Like Ive said, if you havent seen it then you havent been paying attention.
People who engage in personal attacks or post FUD are simply banned
Define personal attacks. When gkam lies and fabricates is it wrong to call him a liar and a fabricator?

Myself and many others have provided much evidence to support this. We are tired of having to expose this asshole time and again.

The mods here used to routinely ban people like gkam for flooding, fabricating, posting off-topic, one-line posts, and talking incessantly about themselves.

If you are truly a mod (and there is after all no evidence to support this, is there?) then you can understand why posters here have stepped up to police their own ranks.

Gkam will continue to be dogged and outed.

Aug 13, 2015
Do you think you know more than the professionals actually doing it?
Lie. Youre no professional and never were, by your own admission. And you never earned an MS as you are a college dropout, which you were clumsy enough to reveal to ira in info you sent directly to him.

Stop lying and pretending and the people here will let you be.

Can you do this?
Science kicks liars to the curb
Gkam claims that an H2 explosion at fukushima compressed dirty molten Pu puddles to criticality which then threw containment vessel parts 130km... without leaving a crater... even though nuclear explosives cant throw debris more than a few km, while leaving a huge crater.

When presented with these facts gkam offered hiroshima, nagasaki, and alamagordo as craterless examples.

These were all airbursts.

And so we must conclude that gkam thinks an H2 explosion caused a Pu criticality somewhere high above fukushima.

Sometimes science needs people to do the kicking for it.

Aug 13, 2015
always criticizing the articles


I criticize the assertion this article has anything to do with science.

hateful and negative behavior


And pointing out how fellow travelers don't know anything about science if they believe this article is about science.
This article is AGW propaganda. One of many on physorg.

Do a study on the articles with the most comments and they will most likely have nothing to do with science and are likely promoting some 'liberal' agenda.

Aug 13, 2015
The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances. (Wiki)

The first amendment does not give one the right to say anything, anywhere. It does not protect you from getting fired if you call your boss an AH. It does not protect you from getting booted out of someone's house if they don't like what you are saying. It does not give one the right to say anything they like on someone else's web site.


Aug 14, 2015
Why do you do that?


Because someone asserted THIS article is about science. This article is about AGW propaganda and not science.

For some, science is like a religion and must not be questioned.

To greenie, if he says this is article is about science, then there can be no more discussion as he won't defend that assertion. An assertion he did not make and Bob is not defending his assertion.

Just as 'liberals' cry 'racism' when they want to shut down any discussion. Greenie does that, too.

Aug 14, 2015
Science kicks liars to the curb.
For some, science is like a religion and must not be questioned.

Aug 14, 2015
Bob did not say that this article is about science, he said


It was in a discussion about THIS article.
An article that has nothing to do with science.

Maybe. So what?

Funny coming from someone who claims to hate religion.

why do you need to be the police


Why do you attack those who challenge your faith?

trolling and disrupting?


In science it's called peer review.
But you seem to like pal review.

Aug 14, 2015
Greenie, you are correct. it is time to clean out this forum. I suggest continuous reporting of those who cannot follow guidelines until we can wake up a monitor. I have reported my own posts to get their attention, but they must be off watching Donald T. Rump.

Or looking for "WMD!".

Aug 14, 2015
but that was not the core of his point.


Yes it was.
It was intended to shut down any discussion about the real issue, socialist AGW propaganda.

You are just hateful.


Another tactic to avoid discussing your worship of science.


Aug 14, 2015
Greenie, we have to stop the abuses by otto and denglish and the other lurkers here. I suggest we simply report every instance of personal attack. Eventually, we may WAKE UP the alleged monitor here. Do they pay him?

Aug 14, 2015
This could be a great place for people interested in science to discuss science.

A little moderating could go a long way....

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp


But this article is NOT about science.

Aug 14, 2015
"But this article is NOT about science."
---------------------------------

But it is. It regards applied science and how we use it to save the Earth.

Aug 14, 2015
Gkam still wants to pretend hes not the offender here. The following, according to george, is why he is here:
And you dream of me. You can't help it. Every comment I leave gets under your skin.

You can be played like a cheap kazoo
-Right george? Whose here to play games, you or me?

Lying on a science forum is no game. Your game is to lie about your past in order to justify the facts you make up.
I suggest continuous reporting
Reporting no longer works. You continue to post your lies and the good people here will continue to expose you.

This is not some job interview with some poor overworked supervisor who you can bullshit into giving you a job, only to discover your incompetence some months later.

This is the INTERNET. As long as the good people here are willing to check what you post, you will be exposed as the pathological liar that you are.

This will not change.

Get used to it.

Or get out.

Aug 14, 2015
we may WAKE UP the alleged monitor here
Youve broken every one of the site guidelines and continue to do so every day, in addition to making up facts and expecting people to accept them verbatim because you post under your real name.

If the mods were banning according to the guidelines, you would have been gone a long time ago.

And so I wouldnt be too eager to scream about 'reporting' if I were you.

Mods can spot liars and troublemakers even if the offenders are so delusional that they think everything that occurs to them must be factual.

You still think Pu is raining down on idaho george?

Aug 14, 2015
Gkam, I don't always agree with you, but I do here.
Personal attacks never belong in a respectable news site
Dear godder.

Let me explain something to you. THIS:
Lie. Youre no professional and never were, by your own admission. And you never earned an MS as you are a college dropout, which you were clumsy enough to reveal to ira in info you sent directly to him
-is not a personal attack. It is a statement of fact. It is evidence of an offense.

The link to the gkam/ira discussion is posted above.

I am aware of your personal disdain for evidence so perhaps you shouldnt be commenting on it.

Aug 14, 2015
Monomania.

Look it up.

Meanwhile, the issue is the cost of windpower. Did I tell you while at PG&E we had a Boeing Mod 2, which held the record for kWh produced for one wind turbine? It was a 2.5 MW unit, I think, with a 300-foot blade.

All that research has paid off with the progress we have today, and the chance to rid ourselves of Filthy Fuels.

Aug 14, 2015
The drive to develop alternative energy for utilities has had a long road. In the 1980's we tried every testable alternative, looking for ways to do things better, from landfill gas to pumped storage to all kinds of fuel cells, to geothermal to PV to thermal storage with CSP, to making our customers more efficient by doing their energy studies for them, then often arranging financing to get it done.

It has paid off, and we are on the way to a better energy future. If we had paid attention to the gripers we would just be in the same sorry spot we had been in before, only worse.

Aug 14, 2015
Monomania.

Look it up
ok.

"monomania (from Greek monos, one, and mania, meaning "madness" or "frenzy") was a form of partial insanity conceived as single pathological preoccupation in an otherwise sound mind."

-Hmmm. I think this would more aptly describe your unnatural preoccupation with yourself, wouldnt you?

But I guess you didnt see that the term is archaic. Its that damn 5 second attention span again, isnt it? Which explains why the bulk of your floods are only one sentence.

"Monomania existed as a diagnosis for half a century until being replaced by what
is legally and psychologically recognized today as the PSYCHOPATH."

-And so we're back to the Ursache, the Immoveable Mover... George Kamburoff, who lies, avoids pointed questions, has delusions about his qualifications, and who likes to play people like kazoos.

So george, since you seem so eager to talk about it, what exactly are you being treated for down at the VA psycho ward?

Please elucidate.

Aug 14, 2015
Have you no decency at all?

Can we get rid of this psychologically-troubled sniper? I was warned about him, but refuse to be intimidated by a big filthy mouth.

This issue is the cost of power, and the development of wind resources, in which I have professional experience. I suggest we force the emotionally-maladjusted off these threads.

Aug 14, 2015
This issue is the cost of power, and the development of wind resources, in which I have professional experience. I suggest we force the emotionally-maladjusted off these threads
Lie. Youre no professional and never were, by your own admission.

You have no relevant education, no degree, no EIT-level experience, and no licence to practice as a professional.

And you never earned an MS as you are a college dropout, which you were clumsy enough to reveal to ira in info you sent directly to him.

Stop lying and pretending and the people here will let you be.

Aug 14, 2015
Meanwhile, the issue is the cost of windpower.
Wind and solar are becoming ever cheaper by taking acres and acres with no restrictions from natural wildlife's habitats and by reducing costs letting mining pollution to third worlds.
"more than 2.4 million tons of lead pollution in China and India"
http://wattsupwit...untries/
" environmental impacts of its mining, namely water pollution and radioactive sludge"
http://www.thinkg...als.html

Aug 14, 2015
- "Can we stop bickering - and discuss the articles"


It's 'bickering' when your AGWism is challenged?
It's NOT 'bickering' when everyone agrees with the AGW propaganda?

Instead of addressing the real issue of wind or solar that others raise, you cry 'bickering' and demand the site delete their comments.

You don't want a discussion. You demand compliance.


Aug 14, 2015
Green, bullies are not going to stop me here. I was a professional, and we identified ourselves if we were to be taken seriously. That is the difference between professionalism and internet snipers playing the "games" they bragged about.

I was hoping to find experienced professionals in other fields to use this as a clearing center for educating each other. What I found was a private cabal of snipers hiding behind phony names insulting others with filthy language and no manners at all.

Were none of these folk professionals? Did none have professional ethics, or take responsibility for their actions and words?

Aug 14, 2015
Bob was simply asking for the personal attacks to stop - and maybe focus on the articles.


You are speaking for Bob, why won't you heed his advice?

Aug 14, 2015
I was a professional
Lie. Youre no professional and never were, by your own admission.

You have no relevant education, no degree, no EIT-level experience, and no licence to practice as a professional.

And you never earned an MS as you are a college dropout, which you were clumsy enough to reveal to ira in info you sent directly to him.
we identified ourselves if we were to be taken seriously
How can anyone take you seriously when you make up so many facts? For instance...

Fallout is the main cause of lung cancer

HIGH ENERGY alpha cannot penetrate skin

Swimming pools are routinely used to provide residential cooling

There was an H2-initiated prompt criticality in dirty molten Pu at fukushima which mustve occured somewhere high above the site because a crater wasnt created

Manure dust is called volatile solids and is a main constituent of pollution in the 'high air' above the central valley

Etcetcetc.

Who could possibly take you seriously george???

Aug 14, 2015
We have several choices. Leave the board is one option. Engage in constructive discussion - and try not to let the bullies bother you (probably the best option). Pick your battles - think about how much time you want to spend. As Bob points out above - there is too much bickering, when we could be focusing on the articles
You forgot the most important - not making up facts and not lying about how you think you know them.

You actually believe that people have a right to lie and fabricate here? You think it is bullying to expose their lies and their lack of integrity?

It is NOT bullying to expose liars and fabricators. It is a duty we all have, as supporters of science.

And it doesnt depend on whether the liar supports our cause or not. In fact, adherents to a particular cause should be especially vigilant to ensure that their position is not being weakened by lies and untruths.

Aug 14, 2015
You are speaking for Bob, why won't you heed his advice?


Doing my best RR. I don't think that calling for more discussion of the science - and less bickering is a bad goal. It is hard when the board is so dominated by trolls. I will try to keep my snark under control.

Failed, again.

Aug 14, 2015
Awesome! I love it! Keep it coming guys! hahaha

Aug 14, 2015
Green, challenged, and being a real person, I sent some proof of my service to Ira, thinking that would end the attacks. Instead, he chose to grossly misrepresent it, not able to admit error, and no professional. I will not send him the diplomas or service record, it is just bait. These kids have no intent of discussing the technology, . . they bragged about being here for their "games".

Now, the issue here is the plunging cost of wind power, so we can compare it to the exploding cost of nuclear monsters, and how we are still trying to deal with Chernobyl and Fukushima.

Let's go back to it.

Aug 14, 2015
Awesome! I love it! Keep it coming guys! hahaha


Aug 14, 2015
I agree Otto. Does it have to reach the level of personal attack that you and the others are engaging in?
These ARENT personal attacks. They are responses to personal info that george himself has provided.

George claims to be an expert in nuclear reactors while the info he has provided makes it clear that his 'experience' consisted of job shop validation of a single system, off-site.

Claiming that this experience makes him an expert is a pathetic lie, and his insane evaluation of fukushima explosions attests to his intellectual incompetence.
and then openly admitting that even if I sent the evidence of my degree (in counselling from a 3rd rate college) denglish would not accept that
Georges so-called experience, according to his own admission, has little to do with the crap he posts. He himself has provided ample evidence that his education is a lie.

Georges problems here have nothing to do with you. Evidence from him tells us he has had them all his life.

Aug 14, 2015
I sent some proof of my service to Ira, thinking that would end the attacks
As I and others have told you many times, the only thing that will stop the attacks is for you to stop lying.

But then it is the only way for you to get attention, isnt it?

Testimony of another psychopath

"When we (psychopaths) do care about whether or not we get attention it is not because we have an emotional dependency on being recognized or confirmed by our surroundings. It doesn't matter to us that people speak badly about us, or that they try to avoid us. Being feared makes an opening for controlling those who fear you, and control leads to possible power.

"Making sure you get a lot of attention is also a kind of control, it is a potential opener for gaining power, and it is the central, and often the only, reason why we seek to get it."

-You have no control here.

People here are smarter than you.

Many are genuine pros who can spot a phony from experience.

Aug 14, 2015
Calling me a liar - and then openly admitting that even if I sent the evidence of my degree (in counselling from a 3rd rate college) denglish would not accept that.

Don't forget how you started it. Your story was all over the place, and your inability to stay on topic or interpret written word belied your claims. It is quite clear you are playing the same game that gkam is, and are just as transparent.

As Otto has said: stop it, and it will stop.


Aug 14, 2015
Hi gkam, greenonions et al. :)

Did you catch the expose' of "Troll Factories" such as this: Putin's very own 'brand'... http://www.abc.ne.../6692318 ).

Forget trying to get any sense or honest engagement from the goobers who post here from other 'brands' of Troll Factories; ie: Fossil/Nuclear,/GOP/Religionist/Lobbyists etc; and also just plain Moron-Gangs of 'internet trolls' who have serious sociopathic tendencies they act out on-line where they can attack others anonymously. You know which "brand" of Troll-House they belong to by their pattern of posting/personal attacks in lieu of actual honest facts and logics.

Willie belongs to the Coal/Nuclear brand and takes blood money for spreading long-discredited propaganda for same.

ryggesogn2 belongs to the NRA-Religious/GOP brand, and sprouts self-contradictory codswallop even a sixth grader economy/history student could demolish easily;

cont...


Aug 14, 2015
...cont

denglish, Uncle Ira, Ghost and certain others belong to internet-morons brand of troll gangs/opportunists who jump on others coat-tails and pretend to be 'legit' while taking cheap shots to make themselves 'relevant' and/or 'players' on social/science sites. They are losers through and through. Some of them are even active sociopaths sabotaging science voting/comment pages/metrics because they cannot stand on their own 'contributions' to justify what they do without being found out immediately. So they hide among a 'gang' of personality-cult trolls on-line because they are cowards and losers who delude themselves they 'manipulate others' and site metrics/discussions while they themselves are so easy to manipulate because of their patent sociopathic tendencies which makes them objects of pity and censure by all decent scientists and non-scientists online and in real life.

Let them stew in their own moronicity/malice. They are losers. Waste no more time on them. :)

Aug 14, 2015
PS: gkam et al, what the above listed morons don't realize is that before 'professional fields' became the 'formalized' domain of the 'professionals and buzzwords' brigade, the pioneering efforts of pre-field-formalization was made by those who DID the original work on which later formalization/fields of professional study/practice are built. Leave the losers go their sad and repetitive sociopathic way, mateys; they have already been well and oft exposed, and self-damned out of their own mouths/behaviors on a science site. They are losers and wreckers and just plain criminal/mental cases. Let their record be their epitaphs, because that is all they bring to science and humanity discourse so far. Sad but that's the way sociopaths go, online and off.

Anyhow, good luck with your discussions, guys. Will be too busy to post much. But will be reading-only once in a while. Cheers and bye for now! :)

Aug 14, 2015
Let's see if the physorg purists condemn RC......

Aug 14, 2015
Hi ryggesogn2. :)
Let's see if the physorg purists condemn RC......
Why would they? After all, I was the victim of the trolls long before now. Only, I made it my duty to expose and shame those very same trolls. So it's a bit 'precious' and somewhat silly of the trolls to appeal to the rules of behavior which they themselves have made a mockery of all this time, isn't it? See? It's too late for you to pretend your victims have no recourse because if they respond in kind to expose you then you will 'complain' and demand the standards be applied and the victims 'condemned' when it suits you but not when you were the perpetrators. Take the hint, mate: It's over; your and other trolls' pretences and trolling behavior was busted long ago. Move on or just behave properly and stop posting easily exposed garbage from your 'brand' of troll factory 'propaganda houses'. Futile complaining to your victims now. Get it? Hope so. Good luck with your futurte choices/behavior. Bye. :)

Aug 14, 2015
Anyhow, good luck with your discussions, guys. Will be too busy to post much. But will be reading-only once in a while. Cheers and bye for now! :)


@ Really-Skippy. How you are Cher? I am fine and dandy me, thanks for asking.

It's too bad you can only be reading and not posting any postums. I really enjoy them a lot. How is the book about the toes coming along? You promised I could read him before January, remember? (In case in January you try to claim you never said that, I got the article comment section marked up so I'll be able to remind you.)

Oh yeah, I almost forget. At the climatic conference? How did the Really-Cavalry presentation go over? You said it would be so monumental that the world would have to listen. I am still listening but I have not heard anything about it non.

Anyhoo, if you take the break from working on your toes, make a postum or two so we will know you are getting along about like you always get along.

Aug 14, 2015
gkam, RC and their gang hate an inconvenient truth:
"nuclear power causes fewer deaths per unit of energy generated than even wind and solar power" - Aug. 13, 2015
http://www.wsj.co...39506952

Aug 14, 2015
I was the victim of the trolls long before now.

How can anyone be a victim here? Someone hurt your feelings? (Typical 'liberal' BS victimology.)

I had one guy that thought he knew who I was and threatened me in the real world. I told him to go ahead.

Aug 14, 2015
gkam, RC and their gang hide themselves behind science to spread their anti-science (myths, beliefs, fictional data, conspiracy theories, scaremongering) against nuclear power. Lamentable.

Aug 14, 2015
if they respond in kind to expose you then you will 'complain' and demand the standards be applied and the victims 'condemned' when it suits you but not when you were the perpetrators. Take the hint, mate: It's over;


What's over? Y'all stop calling me stupid or something?

I will keep on challenging you all to defend your positions no matter how many bad names you call me or how many times you call me a racist.
Why won't you defend your positions with facts instead of invective?
Because you can't.

Aug 15, 2015
I was the victim of the trolls long before now.

Its not trolling; its refutation and correction.

Just like gkam, greenonions, and others, the bulk of your posts are nonsense; its no wonder you find your feelings hurt so much.

Aug 15, 2015
The issue here is the cost of wind power, which has blown all other technologies away, except for PV. Thermal power is the dinosaur we will all be happy to retire, especially the forever-long legacy of our ridiculous toying with nuclear weapons and power. Our extremely-high-level radioactive waste will last essentially forever in Human terms, and all others from here on will have to take care of it. We can't even contain it successfully.

Why would you want 13 cents/kWh nuclear power from Vogtle instead of cleaner and cheaper power from alternatives, which do not produce toxic wastes?

Aug 15, 2015
Looking at the prices of wind, PV, and the new batteries, why would anybody build dangerous nuclear and filthy coal plants anymore? The calculated (and subsidized) cost to PRODUCE power at Vogtle is now up to 13 cents/kWh. That is the cost to produce, not transmit and sell. What are the customers going to have to pay for that power?

Aug 15, 2015
..do not produce toxic wastes?
"..the entire process, the construction and operation of wind turbines is a dangerous and toxic affair. It begins with the mining of rare earth minerals, a collection of chemical elements.."
"workers are exposed to hazardous materials like hydrofluoric acid and radioactive particles."
http://stoptheset...embrace/

"Manufacturing wind turbines is a resource-intensive process."
"kill hundreds of thousands of birds each year.."
http://stoptheset...chalice/

"the proponents of solar energy can claim the moral high ground, they may need to deal with an inconvenient truth of their own: mountains of hazardous waste being created by the production of solar panels."
"Metals that go into solar panels are often mined in jurisdictions with low environmental standards.."
http://oilprice.c...age.html

Aug 15, 2015
Solar and wind even for free, are still ecologically expensive, acres and more acres taken from wildlife's habitats, millions birds and bats butchered; backed by fossil fuels.

Aug 15, 2015
The anti-science pro-business-as-usual crowd are losing this fight. Their dependence on the Fuel of James Watt in the 1700's is finally over. Appropriate technologies will be used in the future, where we learn to live with and use Nature, instead of trying to brute-force it.

Aug 15, 2015
The anti-science pro-business-as-usual crowd are losing this fight. Their dependence on the Fuel of James Watt in the 1700's is finally over. Appropriate technologies will be used in the future, where we learn to live with and use Nature, instead of trying to brute-force it.

This is the same person that says the US sold Nuclear Secrets to North Korea and Pakistan.

This is also the same person that has been outed for lying about their military service, and their education.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Aug 15, 2015
..to live with and use Nature, instead of trying to brute-force it.
environmental hypocrisy, occupying ever more natural habitats.
Their dependence on the Fuel of James Watt in the 1700's is finally over.
Wind and solar are out-of-phase with demand thereby need by backed be fossil fuels, what irony.

Aug 15, 2015
"This is the same person that says the US sold Nuclear Secrets to North Korea and Pakistan."
-------------------------------

Once again, No, I did not. I reported how AQ Khan got our drawings and Krytrons, when we could have stopped it. He was the source of nukes for North Korea. Please have the integrity to report correctly.

Lying about my military service? Look me up. I gave you folk several military sites with my name and picture on them, plus the pdf of the front page of the base paper of the Air Force Flight Test Center at Edwards AFB showing my picture, name and date of service.

If you want to debate this issue of the price of power, let's do it. Otherwise go elsewhere for game-playing.

Thanks.

BTW, who are you and what have YOU done?

Aug 15, 2015
Hi rc :)
denglish, Uncle Ira, Ghost and certain others belong to internet-morons brand of troll gangs/opportunists who jump on others coat-tails and pretend to be 'legit' while taking cheap shots to make themselves 'relevant'
rc belongs to a select group of posters who will defend fellow liars and fabricators because they feel more comfortable as members of a group.
PS: gkam et al, what the above listed morons don't realize is that before 'professional fields' became the 'formalized' domain of the 'professionals and buzzwords' brigade
32 weeks of technical training in the air force didnt make one an engineer 50 years ago and it doesnt make one an engineer now.

Gkam had, and lost, a few job shop positions labeled 'engineer'. This included running boilers in a shop somewhere.

This doesnt make him an engineer either. He has further proven this by his ignorance of fundamental issues. He lies to himself as he lies to the world.

He cant not lie. Its a symptom.

Aug 15, 2015
"Wind and solar are out-of-phase with demand"
---------------------------------

You have it exactly backwards. PV comes out as the daily load increases, and wind comes up inlate afternoons when we need it for late peak, cooking and lights.

When we needed peaking power in the afternoons for air conditioning on top of the usual loads, we put the wind turbines up at Altamont in the late 1970's. It meant we had the clean power exactly when we needed it, did not use any water like thermal plants, had no fuel costs, and was exactly where we needed it, so there were no transmission costs.

Would you rather we put up a coal plant in our air basin? Where would we get the water for cooling?

Aug 15, 2015
Lying about my military service? Look me up. I gave you folk several military sites with my name and picture on them
Gkam the robot psychopath repeats the same bullshit despite being proven a liar in the SAME THREAD.

You were never an engineer and you dont have an MS in anything. The evidence you yourself have provided, and have failed to provide, confirms this.

"Psychopaths just have what it takes to defraud and bilk others: they can be fast talkers, they can be charming, they can be self-assured and at ease in social situations; they are cool under pressure, unfazed by the possibility of being found out, and totally ruthless. And even when they are exposed, they can carry on as if nothing has happened, often making their accusers the targets of accusations of being victimized by THEM."

-My god youre sick.

Aug 15, 2015
Once again: "Would you rather we put up a coal plant in our air basin? Where would we get the water for cooling?"

The use of wind and PV have so much benefit, we will use them primarily, and relegate thermal plants to backups, as their proponents now admit.

Aug 15, 2015
Once again: "Would you rather we put up a coal plant in our air basin? Where would we get the water for cooling?"

The use of wind and PV have so much benefit, we will use them primarily, and relegate thermal plants to backups, as their proponents now admit.
"Psychopaths just have what it takes to defraud and bilk others: they can be fast talkers, they can be charming, they can be self-assured and at ease in social situations; they are cool under pressure, unfazed by the possibility of being found out, and totally ruthless. And even when they are exposed, they can carry on as if nothing has happened, often making their accusers the targets of accusations of being victimized by THEM."

Aug 15, 2015
BTW, who are you and what have YOU done?

Haven't you learned anything about putting your personal info out on the internet?

My god, you are sick.

Aug 15, 2015
I am real,and you are just another anonymous sniper, like otto, playing your silly "games" with the rest of us.

I will continue to return to the issue of how wind and PV are changing the world, and relegating your coal and nukes to backup status. Where do you want to buy your power? Got lots potentially coming online at Vogtle. You can contract for that stuff right now.

Aug 15, 2015
Solar-powered cars? no power.
Wind-powered sailboats, replaced by steam power.
And now, without any environmental impact, almost for free, it will replace completely fossil fuels, what fib.

Aug 15, 2015
" it will replace completely fossil fuels, what fib."
-------------------------------

Not right away. It takes time to change technologies in infrastructure, because infrastructure has such long periods of use. But our changes now are unprecedented. We are closing coal plants one every ten days.

The cost of nukes is out of control, and the world needs to get off Filthy Carbon Fuels. The newer cleaner, more appropriate technologies are already replacing them.

For the future, thermal plants are already being regarded as backup systems.

Aug 15, 2015
The newer cleaner..
'Baghdad Bob'

Aug 15, 2015
I will continue to return to the issue of
-how george kamburoff thinks he can lie through his teeth unchallenged just because he uses his real name.

"And even when they are exposed, they can carry on as if nothing has happened, often making their accusers the targets of accusations of being victimized by THEM."

My god youre sick.

Aug 15, 2015
Despite the complaints of Eikka, the cut-and-paste of Willie, and the offensive maladjustment of otto, I find the defense of Filthy Fuels sorely lacking. If you folk were true scientists, you would have admitted failure by now, and assisted in the replacement of the old, inefficient, and dirty power systems of petroleum and nukes.

Instead, we see whining and wallowing in hate and the inability to adjust to the future.

Aug 15, 2015
When I said "I will continue to return to the issue of how wind and PV are changing the world, and relegating your coal and nukes to backup status. Where do you want to buy your power? Got lots potentially coming online at Vogtle. You can contract for that stuff right now.", I got awarded ones by antigoracle, rbrtwjohnson, TheGhostofOtto1923, WillieWard, Estevan57, and Uncle Ira.

Does that mean they WILL buy that power from Vogtle? It COSTS them 13 cents to produce each kWh, as opposed to 2 1/2 cents for wind, and about three cents for PV.

Who is going to buy it? The six malcontents above?

Aug 15, 2015
Are universities turning out ignorant 'victims'?

"During the time when people are supposed to be learning to face an often hard world as adults, and going through the often uncomfortable process of building their intellectual foundations, they are demanding to be sheltered from anything that might challenge their beliefs or recall unpleasant facts to their mind. And increasingly, colleges are accommodating them."
http://www.bloomb...ducation

Aug 15, 2015
If you folk were true scientists...
"Two-Thirds of Scientists Support Building More Nuclear Power Plants"
http://www.mrctv....snb2:IWk
assisted in the replacement of the old, inefficient
Steam power has already replaced medieval sails, windmills and wind powered factories.

Aug 15, 2015
The cost of nukes is out of control, and the world needs to get off Filthy Carbon Fuels.

This is the same person that says the US sold nuclear secrets to North Korea and Pakistan, lies about their education (claiming a MS, but proven to have been a drop-out by their own poorly reviewed proofs), lies about their military service, and god-knows what else.

Liberalism truly is a mental disorder.

Aug 15, 2015
Ryggy, the issue here is the price of alternative energy, not your politics.

Aug 15, 2015
denglish, thanks for admitting failure in the debate. Doing an otto is not exactly the intellectual equivalent of celebrating, is it? Yes, my mother wears Army boots, and all that other stuff you have to bleat in your losing cause.

Can you defend your Filthy Fuels in a debate? Can you? Then try it, and stop screaming personal nasties across the playground in defeat.

Aug 15, 2015
the issue here is the price of alternative energy
politics, subsidies, governmental mandates, vested interests, green lobby, predatory/artificial pricing, ...

Aug 15, 2015
Can you defend your Filthy Fuels in a debate?

Easily. They are the only source of power that will sustain us until we develop viable sources of alternative power.

Refute that.

It just occurred to me; you hate the established methods of power because you were recognized as an ass and drummed out of the industry.

btw, I showed my kid your ordeal. He used the term naive narcissist to describe your actions. You did something good today George, you were an example of how not to be. You should be proud of yourself.

Aug 15, 2015
Here is a new one for Willie, otto, and the other nuke apologists:
"Japan raises eruption warning for volcano near nuclear plant"
Japan raises eruption warning for volcano near nuclear plant

Japan's weather agency on Saturday told thousands of residents of a city in Kyushu to prepare for a possible evacuation as it upgraded a volcanic eruption warning.

Officials raised their alert to its second-highest level after picking up increasing seismic activity around the volcano Sakurajima, which sits just off the coast of Kagoshima, a city of more than 600,000 people.."
-------------------------------
Another volcano erupted near the area earlier, in May. Which one will take it out?

Do you happen to know that one is the ONLY operating nuke plant in Japan, and they JUST turned it on!?

Aug 15, 2015
Another volcano erupted near the area earlier, in May. Which one will take it out?

Do you happen to know that one is the ONLY operating nuke plant in Japan, and they JUST turned it on!?

You take pleasure in tragedy.

You are a sick person.


Aug 15, 2015
eruption warning for volcano..possible evacuation..
It is causing tsunamis, earthquakes and volcano eruptions, What more? Godzilla!
gkam love biased/scaremongering correlations.

Aug 15, 2015
"You are a sick person."
--------------------------------

Oh,stop it. I have seen enough misery, and advised against nuclear plants. Go accuse the folk who put it there, . . for money.

Now look at the worry and potential consequences they face because of bureaucrats and Big Money.

We do not need to play with stuff we cannot control.

Aug 15, 2015
Oh,stop it. I have seen enough misery, and advised against nuclear plants.

Uh oh, he's warming up for more lies! An energy policy consultant, eh?

Go accuse the folk who put it there, . . for money.

Yeah. People that have something valuable sell it. We know by now that this concept is foreign to you.

Now look at the worry and potential consequences they face because of bureaucrats and Big Money.

You take pleasure in tragedy. You are a sick person.

We do not need to play with stuff we cannot control.

Like the climate. Nuclear power is totally controllable, and at the moment, our best option.

Its shame you resent being drummed out of the community. I wonder what you did to convince them that you're an ass.

Aug 15, 2015
the issue here is the price of alternative energy
politics, subsidies, governmental mandates, vested interests, green lobby, predatory/artificial pricing, ...

All add to the real cost.

Still true:

"Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing."

Aug 15, 2015

"Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing."
------------------------------

Ryggy, . . You admitted it!!!

That's the first step in overcoming it. Those of you who see everything through the penny have a hard time in society.

Aug 15, 2015
http://holykaw.al...es-infog

Price of fossil fuels?

Aug 15, 2015
"Gates says renewables are rubbish. Probably won't win over the Linux fanciers."
"Unfortunately a lot of people aren't numerate and/or aren't honest, so it's far from sure that the colossal subsidies pumped into today's useless renewables will get diverted into R&D which could produce something worthwhile." http://www.thereg...into_rd/

Aug 16, 2015
http://iceagenow....t-video/

No wonder they are in such a rush to pass AGW legislation, they really only have a few years remaining until the hoax is obvious even to college students.

Aug 16, 2015
"widespread deployment of nuclear power is acting to decrease the radiation burden of the average individual. "
http://www.physic...03422357

Aug 16, 2015
"A study in the American Journal of Epidemiology by researchers at the London School of Economics and Erasmus University Medical Center in the Netherlands found that the secret to sustained happiness lies in participation in religion.

"The church appears to play a very important social role in keeping depression at bay and also as a coping mechanism during periods of illness in later life," Mauricio Avendano, an epidemiologist at LSE and an author of the study, said in a statement. "It is not clear to us how much this is about religion per se, or whether it may be about the sense of belonging and not being socially isolated.""
http://www.washin...uggests/

Maybe this is why some here claim to be victims and become so emotional when their AGW faith is challenged. Science in general and AGWism in particular substitutes for religion for too many here.

Aug 16, 2015
http://holykaw.al...es-infog

Price of fossil fuels?

gskam and his lies.
Have a gander where the billions in subsidies are going.
http://www.eia.go...subsidy/

Aug 16, 2015
"Maybe this is why some here claim to be victims and become so emotional when their AGW faith is challenged."

There is no doubt that worshiping Giai is the progressive response to the threat posed to them by other religions. Giai is an ideal tool since progressives can pass laws that appear to protect her while increasing their power and control.

Aug 16, 2015
increasing their power and control.


That is the objective of many organized religions.
After the Reformation, people could read a Bible in their own language and decided for themselves about the Pope.
And this is one reason for the first clause of the first amendment to the US Constitution.

Aug 16, 2015
I love it! The issue is cheap, safe, and non-polluting wind power, and all the chronic malcontents can do is gripe about everything else, religion, failed capitalist economics, quotations from others, . . all while the Real World is at their front door.

The game is over for fossil fuels and nukes. Simple economics did them in.

Now, they are relegated to backup status, as their fans even agree.

So why the debate? The last screams of the losers?

Aug 16, 2015
Have a gander where the billions in subsidies are going.

Check out Figure ES1. No wonder why wind is getting cheaper, the capacity additions have tanked!

Why?

You never reinforce failure.


Aug 16, 2015
Then, check out table ES4. Wind is getting 37% of total subsidies and support, of 11 possible beneficiaries.

A person with more time than I may do the math to see what the ration to subsidies vs. benefit is for wind vs other energy sources (Table ES5). At first glance, that number may explain why wind is being trotted out as getting cheaper.