Tesla CEO plugs into new market with home battery system

April 30, 2015 byMichael Liedtke And Jonathan Fahey
Tesla CEO plugs into new market with home battery system (Update)
Elon Musk, CEO of Tesla Motors Inc., unveils the company's newest product, Powerpack in Hawthorne, Calif., Thursday, April 30, 2015. (AP Photo/Ringo H.W. Chiu)

Never lacking daring ideas, billionaire entrepreneur Elon Musk is determined to jolt the electricity market.

The CEO of electric car maker Tesla Motors hopes to park hundreds of millions of large, solar panel-connected batteries in homes and businesses so the world can disconnect from power plants—and he can profit. On Thursday night, before an adoring crowd and a party-like atmosphere, Musk unveiled how he intends to do it.

Musk took the stage at Tesla's design studio near Los Angeles International Airport, an audience of drink-toting enthusiasts cheering him on, in a scene fitting for an audacious dreamer renowned for pursuing far-out projects. Colonizing Mars is one of Musk's goals at Space X, a rocket maker that he also runs.

Now, he is setting out on another ambitious mission. "Our goal here is to fundamentally change the way the world uses energy," Musk told reporters gathered in Hawthorne, California.

Although Tesla will make the battery called "Powerwall," it will be sold by a variety of other companies. The list of partners includes SolarCity, a solar installer founded by Musk's cousins, Lyndon and Peter Rive. Musk is SolarCity's chairman and largest shareholder.

As with Tesla's electric cars, which start around $70,000, the battery might be too expensive for most consumers. The system will carry a suggested price of $3,000 to $3,500, depending on the desired capacity. Installation will be extra. That could discourage widespread adoption, especially for a product that may only have limited use.

"I don't believe this product in its first incarnation will be interesting to the average person," conceded Peter Rive, SolarCity's chief technology officer. Rive, though, still expects there to be enough demand to substantially increase the number of batteries in homes.

Musk is so encouraged by the initial demand that he believes Tesla and other future entrants in the market will be able to sell 2 billion battery packs around the world—roughly the same number of vehicles already on roads. Although that may sound like a "super crazy" goal, Musk insisted it "is within the power of humanity to do."

Elon Musk, CEO of Tesla Motors Inc., unveils the company's newest product, Powerpack in Hawthorne, Calif., Thursday, April. 30, 2015. (AP Photo/Ringo H.W. Chiu)

It will take a long time to get there. Tesla hopes to begin shipping a limited number of Powerwall batteries this summer in the U.S. before expanding internationally next year.

The long-term goal is to reduce the world's reliance on energy generated from fossil fuels while creating regional networks of home batteries that could be controlled as if they were a power plant. That would give utilities another way to ensure that they can provide power at times of peak demand.

Tesla CEO plugs into new market with home battery system (Update)
Media members line to enter Tesla Design Studio to wait for Tesla Motors Inc. to announce its expansion into the home battery market in Hawthorne, Calif., Thursday, April 30, 2015. Tesla CEO Elon Musk is trying to steer his electric car company's battery technology into homes and businesses as part of an elaborate plan to reshape the power grid with millions of small power plants made of solar panels on roofs and batteries in garages. (AP Photo/Ringo H.W. Chiu)

For now, the battery primarily serves as an expensive backup system during blackouts for customers like David Cunningham, an aerospace engineer from Foster City, California. He installed a Tesla battery late last year to pair with his solar panels as part of a pilot program run by the California Public Utilities Commission to test home battery performance.

Although Cunningham's home has not endured a blackout in the six months that he has had the battery, it's capable of running critical home appliances like lights and refrigeration and can be recharged by solar panels during the day.

"As long as a person has solar panels, it's just a natural fit for the two to go together," Cunningham, 77, said. "I consider it to be a whole power system right here in my home."

Cunningham took advantage of state incentives that sharply reduced the battery's $18,300 sticker price under the pilot program. He still paid $7,500.

"The value proposition now is around reliability and backup power more than it is around savings, but over time that may change," said Shayle Kann, an analyst at GTM Research.

Tesla CEO plugs into new market with home battery system (Update)
In this April 20, 2015 photo, David Cunnigham shows a prototype Tesla battery system that powers his Foster City, Calif. home. Cunnigham installed the battery late last year to pair with his solar panels as part of a pilot program run by the California Public Utilities Commission to test home battery performance. Tesla is expected to unveil a stationary battery for homeowners and businesses on Thursday, April 30, 2015. (AP Photo/Jeff Chiu)

The batteries are likely to become more useful if, as expected, more utilities and regulators allow power prices to change throughout the day based on market conditions. That way, the software that controls the solar and battery system will allow customers to use their home-generated power—and not expensive grid power—when grid prices spike.

Many commercial customers already buy power this way, and Tesla also announced battery systems designed for them, along with bigger battery packs that utilities can use to manage their grids. Analysts say these utility and commercial markets will probably be more promising for Tesla during the next few years than residential customers.

This April 20, 2015 photo shows a prototype Tesla battery system that powers the home of David Cunningham in Foster City, Calif. Cunnigham installed the battery late last year to pair with his solar panels as part of a pilot program run by the California Public Utilities Commission to test home battery performance. Tesla is expected to unveil a stationary battery for homeowners and businesses on Thursday, April 30, 2015. (AP Photo/Jeff Chiu)

Several businesses, including Amazon.com and Target, plan to use Tesla's battery storage system on a limited basis. Southern California Edison is already using Tesla batteries to store energy.

Tesla is building a giant factory in Nevada that will begin churning out batteries in 2017, so Musk needs to begin drumming up customers now. The spotlight may help Musk push policy makers and utilities to consider reshaping regulations so solar and battery storage could be more easily incorporated into the larger electric system, Kann said.

This April 20, 2015 photo shows a prototype Tesla battery system that powers the home of David Cunningham in Foster City, Calif. Cunnigham installed the battery late last year to pair with his solar panels as part of a pilot program run by the California Public Utilities Commission to test home battery performance. Tesla is expected to unveil a stationary battery for homeowners and businesses on Thursday, April 30, 2015. (AP Photo/Jeff Chiu)

Tesla's ambitions already have intrigued homeowners like Mike Thielen, who installed one of the prototype batteries with SolarCity panels on his Redondo Beach, California, home last year. Although he hasn't needed the backup power yet, he has embraced the concept.

"I think it's brilliant," he said. "I would consider upgrading to a more powerful home battery if they could figure out a way to get me totally off the grid."

Investors seemed unmoved by Musk's latest vision. Tesla's stock dipped 2 cents Friday to close at $226.03.

Tesla CEO plugs into new market with home battery system (Update)
In this April 20, 2015 photo, David Cunningham points toward his SolarCity Web page, which details his solar energy output at his home in Foster City, Calif. Cunnigham installed a Tesla battery late last year to pair with his solar panels as part of a pilot program run by the California Public Utilities Commission to test home battery performance. Tesla is expected to unveil a stationary battery for homeowners and businesses on Thursday, April 30, 2015. (AP Photo/Jeff Chiu)
Tesla CEO plugs into new market with home battery system (Update)
In this April 20, 2015 photo, David Cunningham walks toward his solar panel-topped home, in Foster City, Calif. Cunnigham installed a Tesla battery late last year to pair with his solar panels as part of a pilot program run by the California Public Utilities Commission to test home battery performance. Tesla is expected to unveil a stationary battery for homeowners and businesses on Thursday, April 30, 2015. (AP Photo/Jeff Chiu)
Tesla CEO plugs into new market with home battery system (Update)
Media members and guests wait for the Tesla Motors Inc. to announce its expansion into the home battery market in Hawthorne, Calif., Thursday, April 30, 2015. Tesla CEO Elon Musk is trying to steer his electric car company's battery technology into homes and businesses as part of an elaborate plan to reshape the power grid with millions of small power plants made of solar panels on roofs and batteries in garages. (AP Photo/Ringo H.W. Chiu)

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86 comments

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24volts
1.8 / 5 (6) Apr 30, 2015
If I was going to spend that much on batteries I would go with the Edison cells versus lithium types... While the old Edison cells types are not as efficient they will last many many years and they won't blow up and burn the place down if they happened to get overcharged.
HeyDude
4 / 5 (8) Apr 30, 2015
@24volts
Lithium batteries allow rapid dispersion and high amp draw. Traditional cells don't allow for that.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Apr 30, 2015
This is not needed in residential settings, but valuable for commercial and industrial customers with time-of-use rates with high demand charges.
PhysicsMatter
1 / 5 (12) Apr 30, 2015
Sales of electric cars have plummeted. No demand. Hence, there is no significant demand for batteries that's why this concocted idea to justify plans and entice investors for battery mega factory to be build by TESLA. Another Ponzi scheme from Silicon Valley "guru", to pump up stock price that's all.
gkam
3 / 5 (12) May 01, 2015
Some folk assume everybody is as crooked and as flawed as they are. They do not start car companies.
Shootist
1 / 5 (7) May 01, 2015
Too bad the crony capitalist didn't perfect the PEM fuel cell. That would be far more useful, what with each home being its own generating station.
betterexists
1 / 5 (1) May 01, 2015
This is Actually a GREAT Advancement.
The Difference between Car Battery & This Wall-Mounted Battery is that the former uses NON-Renewable Energy and the latter one uses RENEWABLE, SOLAR Energy and works as a Storage Device Too!
It will certainly make a lot of difference to the Quality of the Environment since the announcement also includes power packs for Industries/Apartment Complexes etc., at a cost of $25,000/100 kwh. Also, Musk said that The System Is STACKABLE Too! You got more money in your wallet & You want more power for your house....Then, Stack'em!
Good for the Environment, Bad for the Purse.
Acts as Replacement for Generators...They got to shut down their businesses soon.
ab3a
5 / 5 (2) May 01, 2015
I predict another fantastic business model in three years: Battery recycling.

Storing energy in any form is going to be a dangerous proposition no matter what methods you use. The point is that the potential energy is present and that if it is to be useful, it would have to be capable of being released quite rapidly.

However, by distributing the storage, the risk to the region if one is released is less than if it were centralized in to just a few large facilities.

This evens out load for the grid and it also enables the generation (over)capacity to be matched to the load much closer.

It also addresses many overall privacy concerns of the home. Right now, with the precision in a meter, I heard one researcher brag that he could almost tell what programs you were watching on TV based upon power consumption patterns. A battery system would even out the load and thus keep patterns of that sort from leaking in to the metered grid data.

HTK
4.2 / 5 (5) May 01, 2015
This is what I've been waiting for!

Genius! Now Off the grid can really take off!
Eikka
4 / 5 (8) May 01, 2015
@24volts
Lithium batteries allow rapid dispersion and high amp draw. Traditional cells don't allow for that.


You don't need very high specific current capacity from a household battery. In a house you have loads that vary between 1-5 kW, whereas in a car you got 10-50 kW and more.

A household battery needs to be very large in capacity, extremely cheap and extremely durable first and foremost. That's because the battery system costs easily ten times as much per kWh throughput than the electricity you're buying or generating.

Suppose in 10 years, typical lithium batteries cost $150/kWh with a lifespan of 2000 cycles. That's 7.5c/kWh on top of the electricity you're paying. It's not going to make much economical sense, nor environmental sense because money spent in one place means economic activity, energy use, in another place.

Currently they cost $400-500/kWh. That's why we're not there yet.

betterexists
3 / 5 (4) May 01, 2015
The Difference between Car Battery & This Wall-Mounted Battery is that

The reasons for which the Car Batteries were in focus for severe criticism were:
1) Too Expensive
2) Had to be Recharged Everyday using Electricity
3) Not enough places for Recharging'em
4) Cars do not run for long distances
5) About $30,000 replacement charge after a few years without purchasing pre-paid replacement options which may be around $15,000.
6) And the Major one is that the Battery is Heavy, occupies a large part of the car and so much energy is unnecessarily wasted in pulling the battery along with the car.
Nothing Renewable About it!
betterexists
4 / 5 (1) May 01, 2015
These Tesla Powerwall units & Solar Panels over the Roofs work in a hand in glove manner. We will Certainly see drastic reduction in prices for poorer, late comers, particularly because Musk had said that he would allow free outsourcing of his patents to his competitors too. Once Everybody is in Business...It will become OmniPotent, WoW! We even read recently about Spray-painting of Walls & Windows with some material to Capture the Abundant Solar Energy. Tesla's Powerwall units sure will be Very Eager to Gobble it all up!
Eikka
5 / 5 (3) May 01, 2015
However, by distributing the storage, the risk to the region if one is released is less than if it were centralized in to just a few large facilities.


There's still the need for seasonal energy storage on the grid, which isn't feasible in the domestic scale - given that the domestic units only deal with about 1/5th of the total load on the grid in the first place. Large centralized units are still need for industry and for energy security.

Think: a hurricane wipes all solar panels from a coastal town, and it takes a year to rebuild.

Electricity is actually only less than a quarter of all energy we use, so the problem of powering ourselves with renewable energy, and storing renewable energy all-year-round and from good years to bad years is a bigger problem than even 2 billion car batteries.

That's just the starting scratch.

TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (9) May 01, 2015
The need to decentralize power is a national security issue due to the vulnerability of certain components of the grid.
http://www.wsj.co...25984744

-Transformers can take years to replace. Cyber attacks could also deactivate large portions of the grid.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (8) May 01, 2015
The need to decentralize power is a national security issue due to the vulnerability of certain components of the grid.
http://www.wsj.co...25984744

-Transformers can take years to replace. Cyber attacks could also deactivate large portions of the grid.
gkam
1.5 / 5 (8) May 01, 2015
Toyota has been looking into stationary applications for its PEM auto cell for years. I worked with the VP for Special Projects, and thought I was going to get to design a power system. I had already found two places for them.

The best places are in petroleum refineries and semiconductor manufacturers, both places which used or produced large quantities of Hydrogen, in which I had contacts, and knew the infrastructure.

But instead, we did studies, talked to dozens of utility executives, and he made his report. It made no sense to me. I asked why they did not pounce on the opportunity to emplace their cells in such good places, and he explained the Japanese way of making decisions.
betterexists
not rated yet May 01, 2015
Tesla's Powerwall unit Stores power from Solar panels at Daytime, from Electricity Grid when it is typically cheaper at Nights and then provides secure backup in case of any Power Outage!
That is Complete Transformation of Entire Energy Infrastructure of this Very Sacred Planet to Zero Carbon!
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (8) May 01, 2015
Helpful tip: don't press the submit button if it doesn't appear to work the first time. Apparently it circumvents the 3 minute flood control. Like I'm trying to submit this post and it won't let me for 3 minutes.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (7) May 01, 2015
But instead, we did studies, talked to dozens of utility executives, and he made his report. It made no sense to me. I asked why they did not pounce on the opportunity to emplace their cells in such good places, and he explained the Japanese way of making decisions
-Perhaps he just realized that your suggestions weren't very useful? Did you consider this George? Did he have anything to say about wasting time on personal projects and not sticking to your job?

Hard to make meaningful contributions when you're out of the loop.
gkam
1.5 / 5 (8) May 01, 2015
betterex, it will be commercial and industrial users who will employ these first. Shopping centers, and factories will find them very useful. When I was Plant Engineer of H.C. MacAulay Foundry in Berkeley, my demand charges exceeded my energy charges.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (7) May 01, 2015
betterex, it will be commercial and industrial users who will employ these first. Shopping centers, and factories will find them very useful. When I was Plant Engineer of H.C. MacAulay Foundry in Berkeley, my demand charges exceeded my energy charges.
Gkams short-term (assumed) position as grease monkey and button-pusher was 'engineer' in name only, and does not imply he was in any way an engr in fact; only fiction.
betterexists
1 / 5 (2) May 01, 2015
What happened to Japan's Talk of Wireless Transfer of Energy from up above?
If it is really feasible, why not Install miles & miles of solar panels over the seas in the names of each & every family in this world & Transfer the captured energies to these Tesla Batteries installed inside/outside the homes here on the land?
gkam
1.6 / 5 (7) May 01, 2015
Perhaps cost has something to do with it. Geostationary orbits are very expensive. How many pounds do you have to send up, assemble, aim, and keep on target?
betterexists
not rated yet May 01, 2015
What happened to Japan's Talk of Wireless Transfer of Energy from up above?
If it is really feasible, why not Install miles & miles of solar panels over the seas in the names of each & every family in this world & Transfer the captured energies to these Tesla Batteries installed inside/outside the homes here on the land?

Read on this website /news176879161. "Japan eyes solar station in space as new energy source" Nov 08, 2009 by Karyn Poupee
It talks of a system of space solar power system (SSPS) which consists of a large solar power generator and transmission panel. Japan's space agency hopes to by 2030 collect solar power in space and zap it down to Earth, using laser beams or microwaves.
gkam
1.5 / 5 (8) May 01, 2015
Bet'cha not. Talk is cheap. Boosters and assemblies in space are not.
WillieWard
5 / 5 (2) May 01, 2015
Lithium commodity's prices will rocket;
lithium mining pollution too.
http://www.thever...in-china
gkam
1.5 / 5 (8) May 01, 2015
Yeah, . . check them against coal and oil to see where to find the future.
holoman
4.2 / 5 (5) May 01, 2015
You know where you can put your battery, NOT in my home.
Bookbinder
3.7 / 5 (3) May 02, 2015
Except for the summer, I use less than 10kwh/day. This battery is way cool. I think super insulation, passive solar, and propane could do the winter. maybe.
wiggers
5 / 5 (3) May 03, 2015
I'd rather be connected to a nuclear-powered grid.
gkam
1.5 / 5 (8) May 03, 2015
"I'd rather be connected to a nuclear-powered grid."
---------------------------------------

Go build one. The rest of us have outgrown them.

Now, we are looking for ways to take care of all the damage, and to store the waste nobody has found a way to do.
Mike_Massen
2.6 / 5 (5) May 03, 2015
circa 1986 I worked at Pretron Electronics in Osborne Park, Western Australia, one of our customers for Hydrabend press brakes & dual axis controllers was a Remote Area Power Systems (RAPS) enthusiast, we discussed at length his approach to fully working power backup at his home, rather simple.

Surplus WW2 submarine (conventional design) lead acid batteries, the size of very large pots comparable to those used to plant palms, housing made from ceramic with separators also ceramic. His were over 40yrs old & still had ~95% original capacity though were 'reconditioned' ~10 years before. ie. Their design allowed the tubular cells innards to be lifted & the lead & lead-oxide easily replaced quickly with due care re acid ~35%. DC bussing 48v around home, motor/alternator for high loads where high AC power needed. Small bipolar transistor inverters for loads less than ~600W.

So with ~20-30yr physical cheap battery maintenance & upgraded electronics seems ideal approach :-)
WillieWard
5 / 5 (1) May 03, 2015
Now, we are looking for ways to take care of all the damage, and to store the waste nobody has found a way to do.

The amount of radioactive wastes is very small relative to wastes produced indirectly by renewables, e.g. rare earth (radioactive) metals.
"Safe methods for the final disposal of high-level radioactive waste are technically proven; the international consensus is that this should be geological disposal."
http://www.world-...agement/

gkam
1.9 / 5 (9) May 03, 2015
Nope, Willie. I suggest that instead of the cut and paste of weasel words by those who make their money in radiation, you look into what is actually going on at Hanford and WIPP.

At Hanford, babies have been born with partial brains. At WIPP, they cannot even store contaminated gloves!!

Look it up and get back to us, . . thanks.
bluehigh
3 / 5 (4) May 03, 2015
It's kinda like something from a 'Boy Scientist' magazine. Build your own home power plant from army surplus. Mike, do tell us more of your ancient history. Actually don't, it's excruciatingly tedious and often irrelevant.
gkam
1.6 / 5 (7) May 03, 2015
bluehigh, what have you done?
bluehigh
4 / 5 (4) May 03, 2015
@gkam, I've learned enough to tell ignorant narrow minded zealots like you to piss off. I won't be intimated by a bully. The only reason, gkam, you have any standing in this forum is because you choose to be part of a gang. You are a simple minded sycophant without any original thought. You are dull and boring.
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 03, 2015
bluehigh claims
It's kinda like something from a 'Boy Scientist' magazine. Build your own home power plant from army surplus
So what, been done & can still be done (better) by those interested in technology & appreciate it is feasible as it was long ago & reliably, what is wrong with that & deserves your naive condemnation ?

bluehigh claims
Mike, do tell us more of your ancient history. Actually don't, it's excruciatingly tedious and often irrelevant
It is relevant to this topic, isn't it - if not then why not ?

When have I offered anything irrelevant to the topic & irrelevant to a comment response.

bluehigh, you come across as an angry uneducated teenager who missed out on further education at a university or technical college, what's your problem ?

bluehigh instead of barking at the sidelines, why can't you answer basic questions I've posed, iirc the last time you got upset was when I asked you for something definitive re Rossi/BLP - still nothing ?
gkam
1.6 / 5 (7) May 03, 2015
"The only reason, gkam, you have any standing in this forum is because you choose to be part of a gang. You are a simple minded sycophant without any original thought. You are dull and boring."
--------------------------------------

Oh, good!

Then, you read my posts?
bluehigh
2.3 / 5 (3) May 03, 2015
Oh, I forget to answer your question gkam. I've told you to piss off. That's what's I've done. Ok?
Mike_Massen
3 / 5 (4) May 03, 2015
WillieWard stated as if to claim
The amount of radioactive wastes is very small relative to wastes produced indirectly by renewables, e.g. rare earth (radioactive) metals
Beg pardon ?

What radioactive wastes do you imply are produced indirectly by renewables ?
https://en.wikipe...h_magnet

OR are you under the impression that 'rare-earths' are all dangerous ?

Presumably NOT the direct use of rare-earth magnets or maybe dopants used in Solar panels - surely not ?

Do you have a link to something definitive or if not then at least one source of your opinion please ?
bluehigh
not rated yet May 03, 2015
@Mike, you can form whatever view you prefer about my character. I'll do the same about you. My objection is your repetitive attacks on other commentators education so as to justify your comments. It's pathetic, annoying and detracts from the substance of the arguments. If you expect respect from others then you should give it out. You don't need to prove that you are correct, use your maturity to take on board the alternative views in this forum. It's not a contest.
gkam
1.5 / 5 (8) May 03, 2015
"Mike, do tell us more of your ancient history. Actually don't, it's excruciatingly tedious and often irrelevant."
-------------------------------------

So much for "maturity".

bluehigh
not rated yet May 03, 2015
Thanks, after several years of comments in this forum and seeing some greater and lesser minds come and go, I am pleased that I could be classified as a teenager on the side lines. I'll go have a bourbon and say goodnight.
bluehigh
5 / 5 (1) May 03, 2015
@gkam, I've said a few times that if you want to get into the gutter and punch it out I'm good to oblige. Sadly, it can spoil what is a mostly amicable community here. So, I'll have that bourbon and watch to see if you want to step into gutter. Maybe better to agree to disagree.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (9) May 03, 2015
What is the talk about the gutter? "Punch it out"??

What are you saying?

I responded because I was in the field at one time, and learned to look behind the scenes. Why would you find that in the gutter?

Enjoy the bourbon, . . no hostility here.
Mike_Massen
3 / 5 (4) May 03, 2015
bluehigh claims
My objection is your repetitive attacks on other commentators education so as to justify your comments
No. I have Never relied on my educational background to respond to commenters naive, stupid & ill-informed claims. I have first asked their clarification by question or pointed them to the prevailing physics & asked re exceptions - one particular weasel Telekinetic made the most stupid claims tantamount to defamation/libel & are also immensely un-intelligent barking as he hasn't considered ANY consequences if Eg MIT had acted as he claimed to lie to US government !

bluehigh claims
. pathetic, annoying and detracts from the substance of the arguments
Only when trolls shift position, distract & make stupid claims, their fault

bluehigh claims
If you expect respect from others then you should give it out
No. Not when they lie, obfuscate & claim ignorantly to failures of the ethics of Eg MIT

Focus on Science 1st in each post please !
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 03, 2015
bluehigh shows his naive immature character with this
.. I've said a few times that if you want to get into the gutter and punch it out I'm good to oblige
You propose violence ?

Is that mature ?

Why can't you focus on the Science and instead of barking off like a hooligan & lout - ask FIRST as it is clear you are jealous either of other's education or experience or both. This is NOT how people should comment, reply or argue - mature dialectic is the first priority BUT, learn to be curious & respectful when your naive ideas or speculations are recognised as ill-considered & unintelligent then AND only then might you learn something

bluehigh claims
Sadly, it can spoil what is a mostly amicable community here
Then look squarely at your associate Telekinetic & why you vent anger so easily, thats a great clue

bluehigh claims
... Maybe better to agree to disagree.
No. Either learn through convergence or don't comment without thinking through first !
WillieWard
5 / 5 (1) May 03, 2015
What radioactive wastes do you imply are produced indirectly by renewables ?
"To quantify this in terms of environmental damages, consider that mining one ton of rare earth minerals produces about one ton of radioactive waste, according to the Institute for the Analysis of Global Security."
"For perspective, America's nuclear industry produces between 4.4 million and 5 million pounds of spent nuclear fuel each year. That means the U.S. wind industry may well have created more radioactive waste last year than our entire nuclear industry produced in spent fuel."
"In this sense, the nuclear industry seems to be doing more with less: nuclear energy comprised about one-fifth of America's electrical generation in 2012, while wind accounted for just 3.5 percent of all electricity generated in the United States."
http://canadafree...ve-waste
http://www.thecut...le=21777
Mike_Massen
3.4 / 5 (5) May 03, 2015
bluehigh claims
You don't need to prove that you are correct, use your maturity to take on board the alternative views in this forum
This is NOT an IRC channel, its primarily Science forum to discuss the article & associated concepts/approaches etc. It is NOT a means to become aggressive when your particular views are NOT demonstrated by Evidence or the prevailing Scientific opinion.

If you or other such as dimwit Telekinetic have a position then have the respect to reason through their position & ask questions & NOT to claim there is conspiracy & the idiotic position that MIT would falsify research when its OBVIOUS details of Experimental Methodology of the research MUST be shown re Due Diligence...

bluehigh added
It's not a contest
No. It IS a contest - of ideas & how they are evaluated, that is the competitive nature of the human scientific process BUT, it is moderated by Evidence, irrationality re static beliefs without evidence are impotent
gkam
1.4 / 5 (9) May 03, 2015
Willie, you are quoting from advocate sources. They will not give you the entire story. For example, no plutonium is produced by wind turbines, and is not able to be stored, in the hundreds of tons of we have made in the nuclear Faustian Bargain.

Look up the differences between radiation sources and their effects on Humanity.
WillieWard
5 / 5 (1) May 03, 2015
... their effects on Humanity.
"Deaths per TWh for all energy sources: Rooftop solar power is actually more dangerous than Chernobyl"
http://nextbigfut...ces.html
http://www.forbes...-humans/
betterexists
3.7 / 5 (3) May 03, 2015
To bluehigh
@gkam, I've said a few times that if you want to get into the gutter and punch it out I'm good to oblige. Sadly, it can spoil what is a mostly amicable community here. So, I'll have that bourbon and watch to see if you want to step into gutter. Maybe better to agree to disagree.

Just click on Ignore User and you are done!
I did the same to them.
Telekinetic
3 / 5 (2) May 03, 2015
"If you or other such as dimwit Telekinetic have a position then have the respect to reason through their position & ask questions & NOT to claim there is conspiracy & the idiotic position that MIT would falsify research when its OBVIOUS details of Experimental Methodology of the research MUST be shown re Due Diligence..."

You lowlife coward, Mike Massen- I have to stumble onto a forum where I'm being besmirched by you without opportunity to respond while you're defaming and libeling me? Get your lawyer on the horn- you're gonna need him. Oh, yeah, have you shined my shoes yet?

Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 04, 2015
Telekinetic claims
You lowlife coward, Mike Massen- I have to stumble onto a forum where I'm being besmirched by you without opportunity to respond while you're defaming and libeling me
No. Its in response to bluehigh which made comments on the that same forum, no stumbling involved, your comments prove indisputably you are a complete dimwit in respect of your unintelligent claim MIT falsified results, here is just WHY you are a dimwit, you put NIL thought into your claim

1. MIT operate to charter
2. MIT prepared various tests in accordance with known "Experimental Methodology"
3. MIT reported to US government in accordance with LEGAL & technical requirements
4. MIT would have gained immensely if there was any useful 'over-unity' putting MIT
in forefront
5. Reports, data & methodology detail all recorded for future reference & can be examined
any time to assess if any malfeasance was ever involved
6. Other ?

Better thinking next time Telekinetic, a fail.
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 04, 2015
Telekinetic claims with his usual immense idiocy & ignorance of US law
... I'm being besmirched by you without opportunity to respond while you're defaming and libeling me? Get your lawyer on the horn- you're gonna need him. Oh, yeah, have you shined my shoes yet?
Really ?
Just where & when did you identify yourself ?

Whereas, YOU claimed MIT (identified) were liars & cheats - NOT smart !

I dismiss your legal claim, I even take federal governments & their legislation to task, eg Australia:-
http://www.austli...245.html

Far better, you should focus on learning Physics, not idle stupid threats. My family's from France/ Eastern Europe, we operate by a simple axiom in respect of threats, words to the effect. "..Only make a threat if you have; means, interest & resources and are really prepared to carry it out..".

Go to the Science instead Telekinetic, did you watch the whole video as I linked for MIT ?
HeloMenelo
4.3 / 5 (6) May 04, 2015
bluehigh claims
If you expect respect from others then you should give it out
No. Not when they lie, obfuscate & claim ignorantly to failures of the ethics of Eg MIT

Focus on Science 1st in each post please !

Blueclown really gave me a deep belly laugh right here, Mike doesn't expect respect, he knows he's got it, He knows his science. The reason for pulling laughter out of BH's comments is because he gives clownlike comments.. ;)
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (6) May 04, 2015
Nope, Willie. I suggest that instead of the cut and paste of weasel words by those who make their money in radiation, you look into what is actually going on at Hanford and WIPP
And I suggest that instead of the cut and paste of weasel words by those who make their money in t shirts, you look into actual facts and not those you make up yourself.
At Hanford, babies have been born with partial brains
Well who knows what the truth is. You only reference some jap expat with self-diagnosed radiation poisoning, and also what you can pull out of your ass. Ergo, anything you say is suspect.
Look it up and get back to us, . . thanks
Yeah. Please do look_it_up for a change.
gkam
1.5 / 5 (8) May 04, 2015
Those of you, like otto, who live by wiki may not understand the technological restructuring we will need for our power systems, allowed by new technologies. The massive injection of poor-quality power can overwhelm the system with harmonics and instability. A/C power is dependent on reactance, which is not easy to control with reactive and non-linear loads.

I expect some stronger quality standards for inverters.

Look up Power Quality, otto, and ask the expert the largest power companies used.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (6) May 04, 2015
Two goobers gave me ones. Can I expect them to get sufficiently brave to debate the issue?

Did they look up Power Quality?
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (2) May 04, 2015
@Mike Massen:

"…. MY CHANGE OF MIND WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF TALKING WITH DR. DENNIS BUSHNELL, THE CHIEF SCIENTIST FOR NASA LANGLEY WHO HAS ASSURED ME THAT OVER 100 EXPERIMENTS WORLDWIDE INDICATE THAT LENR IS REAL, CAPABLE OF PRODUCING ENERGY MUCH GREATER THAT CHEMICAL REACTIONS...
…HE BELIEVES THAT THE ROSSI DEMONSTRATIONS SUGGEST THAT LENR MAY PRODUCE "USEFUL" QUANTITIES OF HEAT, AND WHAT IS NEEDED IS 10-20 YEARS OF WORK TO ENGINEER ROSSI'S IDEAS FOR PERFORMANCE.HOWEVER, IF ROSSI HAS ALREADY SOLD MORE THAN 10 OF THE 1 MW PLANTS AS I AM READING ON THE NET, AND IT TURNS OUT THAT THE PLANTS WORK, AND ROSSI'S CUSTOMERS ARE HAPPY WITH THEM, I DO NOT THINK THAT THE DOE NEEDS TO GET INTO THE MIX TO CONVINCE PEOPLE TO BUY A PRODUCT THAT OTHERS HAVE ALREADY BOUGHT AND ARE WILDLY HAPPY WITH."-DOE Fusion Director Opdenaker (2011)
So Mike, go shit in the ocean!
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (3) May 04, 2015
I'd be curious how this powerwall meshes with an electric vehicle.
DC-DC charging of an EV should be faster. So there might be benefits to people who don't own solar roof sbeyond a mere 'backup power source'.
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (1) May 04, 2015
@ antialias:
You being a vehement Rossi skeptic, thought you might be interested in the endorsements of Rossi by Nasa's chief scientist and DOE Fusion program director way back in 2011. But of course, your credentials and research experience far outweigh their's. Sucker.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (6) May 04, 2015
AA, that is exactly the plan. BMW and PG&E are already making plans to have their electric cars be used as peak supplies for the utility. A house with PV and batteries can make money by selling peak power and buying off-peak power.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (4) May 04, 2015
But of course, your credentials and research experience far outweigh their's.

You're free to buy Rossi's contraption. No one is stopping you. It's available for purchase. Go ahead and tell us how it works.

A house with PV and batteries can make money by selling peak power and buying off-peak power.

Depends whether you get access to the energy market as an individual. Currently you buy energy through your supplier. If your supplier does not pass on low purchasing prices (and why would they?) then that won't work.

The only way I see this happening is if there is legislation that mandates that consumer prices are coupled to current market prices. That way, at least, people with solar power plants and a powerwall could maximize their feed in profits.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (6) May 04, 2015
AA, did you miss the part where it is between the utility and the customer? The PUC will aver to them, making small changes in the rate structures.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (4) May 04, 2015
In that case it should work. Will be interesting to see at what kind of energy turnover it becomes economically sensible. Maybe it would make most sense to buy several of these for a street or a small community rather than one per household to get the most use out of it.
Should be interesting to model the various scales to see which one makes the most economic sense.
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (1) May 04, 2015
antialias:
Even with the concessions from the highest levels in energy research, you still have the gall to patronize 'Rossi's contraption". You exhibit here once again the behavior of the close-minded, which you've adamantly denied exists in the scientific community. The top directors at NASA and DOE at least had the class to admit that they changed their minds about Rossi.
How does it work? At present, there are at least a dozen theories being bandied about. Time will tell, and visionaries like Rossi who ignore you will lead the way.
gkam
2 / 5 (8) May 04, 2015
Show me it works and is practical.

No, . . . just show me it works.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) May 04, 2015
You're free to buy Rossi's contraption. No one is stopping you. It's available for purchase
Pre-order only until the commercial trial is concluded. Dec or Jan.

"Today Andrea Rossi responded to a question about the length of time it might take for IH to fulfill an order for 100 E-Cat plants with the following comments:

Andrea Rossi
May 2nd, 2015 at 10:29 AM
Eernie1:
Provided the test on course ends up positively, an outsouring system and a manufacturing system has already been organized to be able to sustain the amount of plants that will be ordered. We will manufacture only the confidential parts, outsourcing all the rest.
The development of the manufacturing capacity will be developed proportionally to the actual amount of orders.
Warm Regards,
A.R."
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (5) May 04, 2015
No, . . . just show me it works
Why? You believe that:

-HIGH ENERGY alpha cant penetrate skin

-Fallout is the MAJOR cause of lung cancer (not even on the list)

-Fukushima H2 explosions can cause Pu nuclear detonations which throw macroscopic vessel parts 130km without making a crater

-There is plutonium or americium raining down on idaho

-Swimming pools are commonly being used to cool houses

-Only 1 scientist ever concluded that the next ice age is imminent

-Thorium reactor research is being abandoned worldwide

-Radiation exposure (including HIGH ENERGY alpha) cant kill you in minutes

-In your professional opinion floating concentrated power stations cannot be installed on reservoirs even though you 'evaluated' such a system 25 years ago

-Youre an engineer

-Etcetcetcetcetcetc

-Obviously youre not a very good judge of what is real and what is not. And so providing evidence as usual would be a waste of time.
gkam
1.5 / 5 (8) May 04, 2015
otto dreams of me at night. He wakes up in a real sweat, having fouled himself in his excitement.

Okay, I have stooped to your level to communicate. What now, more screaming of your filthy words in ALL CAPS?

Let's talk about the battery pack and the quality of the power it puts out. Seen the waveform?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (5) May 05, 2015
Let's talk about the battery pack and the quality of the power it puts out. Seen the waveform?
Why? We need to resolve your compulsion to lie, exaggerate, flood, and bullshit first. Why would anyone want to attempt a rational discussion with someone who always does these things?

Why did you claim that you've had 2 earthquakes above 4.0 in the last week when USGS so easily proves you a liar?

And you really need to read posts with the minimum amount of diligence necessary to understand who posts in all-caps and who does not. Unless you don't care about any posts but your own.
Eikka
5 / 5 (4) May 05, 2015
Depends whether you get access to the energy market as an individual. Currently you buy energy through your supplier. If your supplier does not pass on low purchasing prices (and why would they?) then that won't work.


It actually depends on whether you're paid the going market rate for power, or a subsidized rate. The subsidy effectively makes or breaks it.

The actual bulk price of electricity on the grid is something like 3-5 cents a kWh because that's the price at which most powerplants are making it. It would make little sense for a utility to pay any more as long as they can choose who to buy from. If your battery system costs 20 cents a kWh to operate including the power you buy/make and the financing costs, it's simpy not profitable.

Of course there will be occasions when the power market price goes above your cost and you can make a profit, but that shoudn't be more than a handful hours a week.

And solar PV is shaving off the midday peaks directly anyhow
gkam
1.6 / 5 (7) May 06, 2015
Meanwhile, we have to fight Big Money from Filthy Fuels:

http://www.utilit...e/394648
Mike_Massen
3.7 / 5 (3) May 07, 2015
Telekinetic claims
.. thought you might be interested in the endorsements of Rossi by Nasa's chief scientist and DOE Fusion program director way back in 2011
Where is it ?

After 5 yrs a very big FAIL :-(

Telekinetic here
http://phys.org/n...nar.html
claims
I don't personally know the scientists ..
But here Telekinetic claims
..TALKING WITH DR. DENNIS BUSHNELL, THE CHIEF SCIENTIST FOR NASA..
So clearly claim from Telekinetic is mere hearsay yet he imagines my deduction of his claim is "..deaf, dumb, and blind." which goes to show yet again really bad thinking since anything D.Bushnell 'said' to him is hearsay.

Address details, necessary Science, can Telekinetic locate endorsement of Rossi he claims & "..admissions of NASA's chief scientist" re Rossi or will he be caught struck dumb again?

Specific "endorsements" & "admissions" by the Nasa Chief please ?

Will Telekinetic retract claim re MIT ?
WillieWard
2.3 / 5 (3) May 07, 2015
"Why Tesla's Powerwall Is Just Another Toy For Rich Green People"
http://www.forbes...-people/
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (2) May 07, 2015
How DUMB are you, anyway, Mike Massen? That was a quote from Al Opdenaker, scientist from the DOE about HIS conversations with Dennis Bushnell, Chief Scientist at NASA. His name is printed at the end of the quote. What an addlepated dunderhead you are! Sickening and dismaying.
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 08, 2015
Telekinetic being offensive again
How DUMB are you, anyway, Mike Massen? That was a quote from Al Opdenaker, scientist from the DOE about HIS conversations with Dennis Bushnell, Chief Scientist at NASA. His name is printed at the end of the quote. What an addlepated dunderhead you are! Sickening and dismaying
Apologies, the quote fell off when I quoted due to 1000ch limit, so focused on opening however,

Doesn't invalidate my point, its hearsay, worse you nest it, its feeble & attempt to manipulate, ie just what most religions do, not smart.

Also launching into offensive language & insults without appreciating my point is that 'hearsay' is not definitive, you STILL missed that key point !

Where is ANY endorsement by ANYONE in the scientific/physics community of Rossi's power output ?

THINK man, why his device NEEDs a gas line plumbed in & CANNOT work off a starter for the CF ?

You STILL haven't retracted your defamatory claim against MIT, why Not ?

tut tut
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (2) May 08, 2015
When the country's top scientists weigh in on a new technology and both are convinced of its validity, that's NOT hearsay, that's expert opinion. What IS hearsay is your believing those who haven't even witnessed Rossi's demonstrations or have even spoken to anyone who had been physically present at Rossi's demonstrations- that's worse than hearsay. It's gossip. And that's what you've based your opinion on and made steadfast conclusions about Rossi, knucklehead.
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 08, 2015
Telekinetic claims
When the country's top scientists weigh in on a new technology and both are convinced of its validity, that's NOT hearsay, that's expert opinion
No, not when its related by mere claim ie "someone said something to someone who said..." this is NOT expert opinion its a claim someone claimed there was an expert opinion, please learn, it will help you immensely to separate claim from information which should be substantive
https://en.wikipe.../Hearsay

Telekinetic claims
What IS hearsay is your believing those who haven't even witnessed Rossi's demonstrations or have even spoken to anyone who had been physically present at Rossi's demonstrations- that's worse than hearsay
No. You don't understand belief in conceptual relationship with "experimental evidence" AND how it is reported. I have looked at his so called 'experiments' they FAIL to address delineation between energy from applied input to that from CF.

cont
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 08, 2015
continued @Telekinetic

Just because you imagine I rely on gossip does not make it so, its referential because YOU obviously do rely on things you cannot confirm in a Scientific framework which also fails the test in Law.

I have examined Rossi's "Experimental Methodology" often along with that of Blacklightpower & both fail simplest test in relation to delineating source of their claim of excess energy or source (blp) then when you ADD to that, the fact Rossi requires a plumbed in gas source then apply Occam's razor, which is more likely:-

a. CF does produce excess power but, the gas is only for starting it up
or
b. CF doesnt provide enough excess power, its output is overwhelmed by the gas energy input

Its called inference & deduction but, relies upon education in several combinatorial factors, just one is
https://en.wikipe...eriments

Just because someone claims via a person isnt substantive, what makes it is Eg 1 "signed-off report"

cont
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 08, 2015
continued @Telekinetic
claims
It's gossip. And that's what you've based your opinion on and made steadfast conclusions about Rossi, knucklehead
No, not mature !

Don't stupidly assume I only follow claims like you without ANY due thought & method.

Rossi's crooked background doesnt help but, his failure to address SIMPLE methodology AND his devices reliance on plumbed gas or replaced gas tank when batteries would suffice further goes to raise doubt !

Have you thought on that key issue:- "If his system did produce the claimed amount of excess energy then why can't it be started by a suitable battery & the excess energy, some of which, recharges the battery whilst it produces the power specified ?"

Besides where is the industrial specification & of course it needs an MSDS for the core item too !

It does not help your case to be emotionally influenced

Where are the endorsements/admission reports please ?

Why will you not retract your defamation of MIT ?
Mike_Massen
1 / 5 (2) May 10, 2015
Telekinetic claims
Again, because it's in your nature to deny defeat at any cost including your own embarrassment, any attempt to convince you that you're wrong is futile
No. Where do you imagine I'm wrong, articulate it clearly ?
I haven't changed my position & despite the onus being on you to prove your implied claim Rossi is credible AND has endorsements, you have refused offer anything AT ALL definitive, Nada - its that simple, you FAIL.

You ARE a dimwit-1
You IGNORE fact Rossi (& blp) set up "experiments" to cloud & obfuscate just how much energy & where it comes from when it is so VERY EASY to prove by simple Physics methodology, can't you see that ?

Telekinetic states
.. Whydening Gyre, language slung at me like "dimwit" entitles me to counter punch ... After all, it's just language
No. Childish retaliation of the gutter snipe, detracts from any point you tried to make & STILL fail to prove admission/endorsements you claim exist, why ?

cont
Mike_Massen
1 / 5 (2) May 10, 2015
continued@Telekinetic

You ARE a dimwit-2
You claim MIT falsified research for DOE re Cold Fusion (CF) and together with NOT thinking about the environment MIT operates in AND is involved with re research AND the IMMENSE benefits they would have gained had it been found viable & the consequences if they did (which I don't believe they did) falsify as EVERY component point re audit procedures of their research has to be documented ALSO makes you so immensely stupid !

You ARE a dimwit-3
You ignored a polite complaint from Whydening Gyre and my urging you take this argument back to this forum.

You ARE a dimwit-4
So far 3 separate points confirming you indeed are a dimwit, take heart though its not necessarily a static, you might just get an education in Physics & have the presence of mind to watch the whole video from MIT I linked you to instead of barking at intro & stopping, had you watched it you wouldn't be dimwit-4

Why haven't you retracted defamation re MIT ?
24volts
5 / 5 (1) May 27, 2015
@24volts
Lithium batteries allow rapid dispersion and high amp draw. Traditional cells don't allow for that.

I'll tell ya what. Let me buy $3500 worth of Edison cells and I'm pretty sure I'll have a large enough pack to supply any current draw I might have at home.
The problem I have with lithium cells isn't their current capability but with their lifespan. Most are good for less than 10 years and many don't make 5. While they are cheaper over the long run than lead acid systems as a rule they don't come come anywhere near the Edison batteries in longevity. Even good lead acid systems will sometimes make 10 years on a home setup.

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