As gay marriage gains voter acceptance, study illuminates a possible reason

Conventional wisdom holds that changing the views of voters on divisive issues is difficult if not impossible—and that when change does occur, it is almost always temporary.

But Michael LaCour, a UCLA doctoral candidate in political science, and Donald Green, a Columbia University political science professor, have demonstrated that a single conversation can go a long way toward building lasting for a controversial social issue. In addition—nearly as surprisingly—the effect tends to spill over to friends and family members.

The key is putting in direct contact with individuals who are directly affected by the issue. The findings are reported in a study that will be published Dec. 12 in the journal Science.

"You forget the message, but you remember the messenger," said LaCour, the study's lead author and a research affiliate at the California Center for Population Research at UCLA.

The issue LaCour and Green were studying was Americans' support for , but LaCour is in the process of replicating the results with another hot-button issue, abortion rights. He hopes to eventually test whether a similar approach could shift people's attitudes toward undocumented immigrants.

The project unfolded in 2013, during the month leading up to a U.S. Supreme Court decision that effectively overturned California's Proposition 8, which had outlawed same-sex marriage in 2008. The study evaluated a long-standing door-to-door campaign in support of gay marriage by the nonprofit Los Angeles LGBT Center.

LaCour and Green began by identifying California precincts that had supported the ban on gay marriage, eventually settling on an especially conservative area of Southern California. They then used voter rolls to invite every voter in those precincts, as well as their housemates, to participate in an Internet survey on politics, including only two questions about support for . (Involving housemates in the study would later allow the researchers to measure whether changes in voters' attitudes ultimately influence those in their social networks.) Eventually, researchers would survey the same 9,500 voters four times over the course of a year.

Participants were randomly divided into three groups. One received house calls from specially trained LGBT Center canvassers who advocated gay marriage. Half of the canvassers were gay; the other half were straight.

A second group received visits from the same canvassers, but the canvassers discussed the benefits of recycling—not the topic of gay marriage. In these visits, the canvassers did not reveal whether they were gay or straight.

The third set was not visited by canvassers.

The gay marriage canvassers asked voters what they enjoyed about being married (if the subjects were married) or the benefits they'd witnessed in the lives of married friends and relatives (if they weren't). Gay canvassers then revealed their own sexual orientation and explained that they longed for the same benefits the interviewees had described, and straight canvassers discussed how they hoped a close relative who was gay could enjoy the benefits of marriage.

The average length of these conversations was only 22 minutes, but the visits had dramatic effects.

In follow-up surveys three days later, the researchers found that attitudes were unchanged among the voters who discussed recycling and those who weren't visited by the interviewers. But among those who spoke with canvassers about gay marriage, support had jumped eight percentage points.

"The change was equivalent to transforming a Midwesterner into a New Englander on the issue of gay marriage," quipped Green, a highly regarded authority on research methods in the social sciences.

Within three weeks, however, kicked in: Support for gay marriage among the voters who had been approached by straight canvassers retreated to where it had originally been; any effect of the conversation had been wiped out. Among voters who had been approached by gay canvassers, however, the attitude shift persisted. In fact, support for gay marriage among that group grew even further when the Supreme Court handed down its decision—jumping an additional seven percentage points. The researchers also found that among these voters' the support remained a year later.

Green, a 27-year veteran researcher and author of four books and more than 100 studies, couldn't believe what LaCour had found. So he advised him to rerun the experiment. The second round replicated the original results.

"Previously, I've been really pessimistic about the prospect of changing someone's views, and that kind of pessimism suffuses much of the research on attitude change," Green said. "But the results of our study convinced me that enduring change is possible. They're eye-popping."

Housemates of voters who spoke to straight canvassers didn't change their attitudes on gay marriage. But the housemates of voters who had spoken with the gay canvassers registered a three percentage-point increase, and their support for gay marriage continued to rise throughout the following year, especially after the decision.

"This suggested to us that views were being reinforced by conversations going on in the household," Green said.

By the end of the year, support for gay marriage drifted slightly upward among the other voters in the study, reflecting the growing increased acceptance of gay marriage in the wake of the court's decision and its simultaneous overturn of the Defense of Marriage Act. But the increase in support for gay marriage among those who had been contacted by gay canvassers was five times higher than that of the other participants.

"When those being denied marriage equality have names and faces, hearts and minds are changed," LaCour said. "And that's what we found."


Explore further

Religious denominations friendly to same-sex marriage may protect gay youth from depression

More information: "When contact changes minds: An experiment on transmission of support for gay equality," by M.J. LaCour et al. Science, www.sciencemag.org/lookup/doi/ … 1126/science.1256151
Journal information: Science

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Dec 11, 2014
Is this why isolated rural communities are so racist, sexist, homophobic...er...conservative? Lack of exposure to real people coupled with a constant feed of Fox induced fear == conservative?

Dec 11, 2014
Or it could be the "Oh Whatever" effect.
Voters fed up of liberal social legislation, and annoying canvasing: Say "OK. Can we move on to the real problems now please..."

Dec 11, 2014
This has been true for decades on every issue affecting gays and lesbians; the real fora of equality has not been the courts or the streets, or the legislature, but rather the living room and the diningroom table. Every family, every church, every community, every workplace has the same share of homosexuals. And, you get used to it, just like you did with Blacks and Jews and Roman Catholics, and Aboriginals.

Dec 11, 2014
When we ignore what God teaches us about sin, we are only dooming ourselves. Rest assured Homosexuality is a sin, and the promotion and acceptance of this in the American society is only catalyst for destruction. There are only two paths to walk in life, The righteous path to God almighty and the Path of destruction lead by satan. Homosexuality is in high gear on the destructive path. Please do not let a temptation separate you from Gods Holiness, by allowing it into your life and accepting it as normal behavior, it is NOT, it is a very Sinful chosen act of defiance to God.
"We all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God", but to make sin a acceptable lifestyle and be unrepentant of it, you are only choosing to walk the path of destruction. Learn the teachings of Jesus Christ and accept him as your personal Savior, then you will know what true happiness is. You have so much more to gain, by accepting, Loving and being obedient to God almighty and Jesus Christ.

Dec 11, 2014
The voters aren't willing to have gays marry. Ii is be forced on them by liberal judges.

Dec 11, 2014
@Ben The voters aren't willing to have gays marry. Ii is be forced on them by liberal judges.
How do you know the judges are liberal? Many conservatives are gay. In fact I observe more gay conservatives. Being in the closet doesn't make them heterosexual. I know a gay disgusted by liberal gays who moved to a red state to mingle with other conservative gays and share their various closets

The reality is that you're a judgmental asshole who doesn't want to fix his own life and so spies on other people without knowing them

Dec 11, 2014
Timmy, you claim to have a wife. Microscopic tears on the skin of the penis and inside the vaginal canal result in the transmission of blood borne illness. According to your logic, this also means you have some sort of weird urine fetish, and I'm quoting your "wife's medical book" here: "[You, Timmy, have]either lost control over their thought process because of some kind of brain deterioration or have some kind of mental illness."

For a guy who claims homophobia is fake, you sure seem to spend a lot of time imagining blood covered disease ridden cocks coming out of another man's asshole. Fantasize about it much?

It also doesn't really matter what your supposed majority thinks of the issue. That's tyranny of the majority. And this is a human rights issue. They want a marriage. You keep arguing that what gay people do is not normal, but what is more normal than marrying someone you love? Sadly for you, your invisible sky king's magic book is not a legally enforceable document.

Dec 11, 2014
Democracy is unstable.

yep
Dec 11, 2014
Giraffes are especially gay!
http://miista.com...lly-gay/
Timmy there is a special blurb on full anal penetration between bulls in that article you might like since your in to that.
Last time I read about it homosexuality was scientifically documented in 1500 species.
Wiki has a big list of mammals http://en.wikiped...behavior
There was a comedian who said why should hetro's be the only ones to suffer or something to that affect, which is quite funny.

Hey BigScott God is Gay!
Should be obvious with all the critters he made that way.
And since you do not know Shite about your religion nor its origin take this opportunity to educate yourself.
http://www.wearen...egro.pdf

Dec 11, 2014
The newly arrived groups tend to over-reach or over compensate, and create problems when they demand ratification for things others are not willing to accept.

Dec 12, 2014
I can't be the only person who has noticed that surveys and canvasing have increasingly been manipulated to support the agendas of whoever is paying for the surveys. Questions are framed within a restricted "agenda safe" range. Contrary "agenda unsafe" issues are avoided or rephrased to prevent effective opposing thought expression.
The results can provide false supporting statistics, or indicate how they can better circumnavigate opposition to their agenda.
This has become so blatant that I rarely take part in these surveys any more.

Dec 12, 2014
What voter acceptance?
Homosexual marriage was imposed by judicial fiat around the USA.
Even in MA, the state legislature DENIED citizens their right to vote on the issue.
Since the homosexual lobby chose the 'civil' right route to redefine 'marriage', the same process will, and is, being used to legalize polygamy. Most polygamist have a better legal basis as Mormons and Muslims have a tradition of polygamy. Freedom of religion is in the FIRST amendment.
Of course the state can get out of this mess by ending its recognition of marriage.

Dec 12, 2014
"When those being denied marriage equality have names and faces, hearts and minds are changed,"

A conclusion that should be acted upon for all kinds of issues. Especially violent ones (from the perception of race specific brutality to international wars). It's hard to shoot at someone you know is a fellow human being instead of just "a member of group X".

Dec 12, 2014
@ryggy

"Of course the state can get out of this mess by ending its recognition of marriage."

One of your more thoughtless statements.

Dec 12, 2014
Note, though, decisions should be made on the issues themselves, not on any feeling of closeness engendered by contacting an individual with a particular agenda! And one who changes their mind necessarily solely on the basis of contact with an individual representing that point of view and not from the values of the point of view cannot be said to be making that decision legitimately! That means that those who support Nazism or totalitarianism because they spoke personally with another supporter should be considered valid! Incidentally, note that there are many representatives on "the other side" of abortion and homosexuality, but they don't seem to have changed the minds of supporters! Anyone who uses this and not the argument to promote an issue is unethical and their agenda possibly if not likely depraved and malignant.

Dec 12, 2014
Why must the govt define or recognize marriage?
Homosexuals are using the state for social engineering.
Civil union laws covered all the legal issues homosexuals complained about regarding 'family' issues.
But no, homosexuals are using the hammer of the state to impose their definition of marriage. They have used the state to force people out of business for refusing to serve them, and even gone out of their way to attack those who won't bake their wedding cake or host their wedding party.
Coercion is not the way to change 'hearts and minds'.

Dec 12, 2014
This is not science. It is a battle between good and evil; a battle between Christians and pagans; a battle between truth and lies.

Whose side are you on?

It's sort of funny that the only violent comment comes from an adherent of a peace-loving religion.

Oh Christianity - how far have you fallen.

Dec 12, 2014
This is not science. It is a battle between good and evil; a battle between Christians and pagans; a battle between truth and lies.

Whose side are you on?

It's sort of funny that the only violent comment comes from an adherent of a peace-loving religion.

Oh Christianity - how far have you fallen.

Muslims execute homosexuals that get caught.

Dec 12, 2014
Muslims execute homosexuals that get caught.


Aren't you going to finish the thought with "Why can't we?"

Dec 12, 2014
Is this why isolated rural communities are so racist, sexist, homophobic...er...conservative? Lack of exposure to real people coupled with a constant feed of Fox induced fear == conservative?


I live in such a community, and from my personal experience I believe it is BOTH a lack of exposure and a FEAR that they will be confronted with the issue on a very personal level and will then actually have to take a SERIOUS look at their worldview on the subject.

IOW it's all fine and dandy to hate, judge, and denigrate other people in theory. It's quite another to do it when you know one of "those people" on a personal level, you see that they are fundamentally no different than you are in every important way, and then.....well you have to do some hard internal introspection and work. Most human beings really really REALLY don't like to do that kind of work :)

Dec 12, 2014
It's sort of funny that the only violent comment comes from an adherent of a peace-loving religion.

Oh Christianity - how far have you fallen.


Quite the contrary Anti, the Christians, despite themselves, have been dragged kicking and screaming back to many of the passages in red in their book. I see them becoming more and more tolerant every day. This comes from several things, but I think the two most important are a fairly good divide between the secular and the religious in general in western societies (though not perfect by any means), AND this has enabled many people to "come out into the open" and then give Christians real world examples of their hostility to grapple with. It's much harder to continue to hate when confronted in real life with someone who doesn't "fit the description" you pre-painted in your mind.

However, I must say that without ANY doubt I've become a much MUCH better "christian" since I quit being a Christian...

Dec 12, 2014
@verkle This is not science. It is a battle between good and evil; a battle between Christians and pagans; a battle between truth and lies.

Whose side are you on?
Which side is Big Sean ft. E40 on?

Dec 12, 2014
Muslims execute homosexuals that get caught.


Aren't you going to finish the thought with "Why can't we?"

No.
Christians were being attacked by anti and I was pointing out the 'religion of peace' executes homosexuals who are caught. Even though they have a long history of homosexual behavior in the Arab world.
As a counter point, the Catholics 'liberalized' their ranks in the '60s enabling much of the resulting sexual abuse and cover-ups in the past few decades.
BTW, how does the homosexual community justify NAMBLA?
If homosexuals can eliminate by fiat gender requirements for marriage, why not age?

Dec 12, 2014
Christians were being attacked by anti and I was pointing out the 'religion of peace' executes homosexuals who are caught.

Yeah..because saying: "look over there - they are worse" makes everything so much better, doesn't it?

All your arguments boil down to: "murderes are saints because mass murderers exist."

That may make sense in your fantasy world. In the real world? Not so much.

Dec 12, 2014
BTW, how does the homosexual community justify NAMBLA?
If homosexuals can eliminate by fiat gender requirements for marriage, why not age?


Might as well ask how the hetorsexual community justifies rape...the answer is that it DOESN'T.

This is the "complex question fallacy" in formal logic.

Really though ryg, such a response tells far more about YOU than it does about homosexuals. It might be worth asking yourself what you're so invested in that prevents you from just accepting people and why you have to introduce a violent or non consenting aspect into a subject in order to justify your bigotry.

In short, apples are red and shiny, oranges are orange and have rougher skin....

Dec 12, 2014
"murderes are saints because mass murderers exist."


It's cowardly for atheists to attack Christians as Christians won't kill them.

Muslims are torturing, murdering, raping Christians, women, homosexuals, ....and 'liberals', atheists, feminists, homosexuals, ...say nothing. Cowards.

A former US Sec. of State, Clinton, state we must empathize with the Muslims who rape, murder, .....

Dec 12, 2014
such a response tells far more about YOU


My questions still stand with no answers:

Why should the state recognize marriage? And the corollary would be, "Would homosexuals campaign so hard if the state granted no preference to marriage?"

If any activist group can get courts to change the definition of marriage for that special interest group, why not others? Mormons and Muslims have a legitimate case for polygamy.
If there are no standards, except 'civil rights', why deny marriage based on age?


Dec 12, 2014
"murderes are saints because mass murderers exist."


It's cowardly for atheists to attack Christians as Christians won't kill them.

Muslims are torturing, murdering, raping Christians, women, homosexuals, ....and 'liberals', atheists, feminists, homosexuals, ...say nothing. Cowards.

A former US Sec. of State, Clinton, state we must empathize with the Muslims who rape, murder, .....


Well I can't speak for liberals (whatever that means), feminists, or homosexuals...but as an atheist I can tell you I say plenty about ANYONE who tortures, murders, and rapes. What YOU want is for people to focus on those that you revile and hate in particular in order to bolster your own worldview and make you feel better....

Go see a therapist if you're needing some help propping up your ego....the rest of us are just fine with our conscience and living our lives without the benefit of your agenda dictating our responses to atrocity.

Dec 12, 2014
My questions still stand with no answers:


Correction, your question presumed a false position and this was explained to you...even though you chose to willfully ignore it.

How often to you break legs ryg??

ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!!

Do you see the problem with your question now?

Dec 12, 2014
I say plenty about ANYONE who tortures, murders, and rapes.

Not here.
What false position?

If the state can essentially define 'marriage' to be whatever anyone wants it to be, why limit marriage based on age?

Dec 12, 2014
It just shows the elitist gay agenda is working. A society full of effeminate gays is much easier to control than a society of strong family men who help raise well adjusted individuals. The traditional family unit is under attack from those who benefit the most without them.

Dec 12, 2014
I say plenty about ANYONE who tortures, murders, and rapes.

Not here.
What false position?

If the state can essentially define 'marriage' to be whatever anyone wants it to be, why limit marriage based on age?


The false position is that gender equates to age.

This is the equivocation fallacy in logic...

http://en.wikiped...easoning

Now answer my question ryg, how many legs did you break today?

And yes I do say plenty about anyone who murders, rapes, and tortures HERE. Because I don't do it the way you NEED me to is irrelevant.

Dec 12, 2014
BTW, when will they reinstate my ability to marry more than one woman, this is certainly discrimination against my "choice" of marriage.

Dec 12, 2014
BTW, when will they reinstate my ability to marry more than one woman, this is certainly discrimination against my "choice" of marriage.


Apparently Jacob's, David's, Solomon's, and Abraham's as well..

Dec 12, 2014
I said it is the essence of a point of view and not whether you feel a connection, which may not actually be there, to the commenter, that should more affect acceptance of the point of view. And the hate Mafia at work here gave me nothing but low rank 1's. In other words, they are saying that truth means nothing, just the engineered impression your get. And, yes, that is exactly what they are saying and this proves the cravenness behind the machinations of "science' devotees. Too, notice, if a face to face contact can change opinions. Why is it the people being polled whose opinions change and not those doing the polling! Another demonstration of the illegitimacy of "science" and its devotees.

Dec 12, 2014
Julian, you, as is the norm amongst people of your perspective, are caught up in equivocation.

To wit;

In your initial post you resort to equating fascism to homosexuality. Equivocation is an intellectually dishonest, unethical, and very immature method of persuasion. It represents a complete abandonment of reason on the part of the user and an appeal to a false (read lie) representation of the opposing view. You were, quite properly, down-voted not because you were presenting a values based argument, but because you were (ironically) presenting a veiled appeal to emotionalism by comparing sexual orientation to people who slaughtered other human beings wholesale BASED on their sexual orientation (amongst other criteria to be sure).

Climb down off your cross...you deserved it.

Dec 12, 2014
The false position is that gender equates to age.

I never said it did.
The 'logic' used to redefine marriage as two people of the same sex can be applied to multiple people of same or different sex and/or of any age.

Dec 12, 2014
The false position is that gender equates to age.

I never said it did.
The 'logic' used to redefine marriage as two people of the same sex can be applied to multiple people of same or different sex and/or of any age.


You just did it again...and you still don't get it because you have a prejudice against homosexuals. It's just that simple.

This is no different than saying the "logic" used to define violent crime can be applied to multiple crimes of any type, including walking incorrectly.

You are saying that age and gender are EQUAL factors in determining a specific legal status...when they obviously aren't.

Dec 12, 2014
Rest assured Homosexuality is a sin... only catalyst for destruction
Ahaahaaa heres a real fire and brimstoner. Sin is bearing children you know you cant afford. Evil is forcing women to bear children until it kills them, and convincing couples that if they remain pious then god will provide for those children. In reality they invariably grow up hungry and angry, and die on the battlefield.

Natural ways of limiting population have evolved throughout the animal world. Rabbit does in overcrowded warrens will absorb their unborn fetuses. Birds which hatch first will push unhatched eggs out of the nest. Infanticide is rife. Etc.

It is reasonable to assume that the human species has such innate growth-limiting traits. Mothers who perceive limited resources the children they have already born may epigenetically neuter subsequent fetuses in the womb.

There is a higher rate of gaydom in younger brothers. Did their mothers wish to limit competition for their firstborn?

Dec 12, 2014
You are saying that age and gender are EQUAL factors in determining a specific legal status...when they obviously aren't.


Defenders of homosexual marriage refuse to defend the logic used to redefine marriage.

That same logic can be applied in courts to claim it is a violation of civil rights to deny marriage on the basis of multiple spouses or age.
Mormons and Muslims have a strong case to assert their Constitutional right of religious liberty is violated by denying them the right to have more than one wife.


Dec 12, 2014
Defenders of homosexual marriage refuse to defend the logic used to redefine marriage.


No, we refuse to accept that all factors that might redefine marriage are equal. Which is very consistent with logical thought. It's illogical, and dishonest to assert that all such factors are equivalent, in effect comparing apples to oranges and saying it's logical to do so because you PERSONALLY don't like apples.

That same logic can be applied in courts to claim it is a violation of civil rights to deny marriage on the basis of multiple spouses or age.


Perhaps multiple spouses is more of an apples to apples argument because it deals with consenting adults deemed legally competent and emotionally capable of making such decisions, but then again those people are in the company of venerable Biblical actors, so Christians can't complain about that and not be stupendously hypocritical.

Age is not an equivalent factor for obvious reasons.


Dec 12, 2014
Defenders of homosexual marriage refuse to defend the logic used to redefine marriage
Marriage was invented to reinforce the tribal dynamic. It reduces conflict within the tribe, increasing trust and the tendency of warriors to sacrifice themselves to save their fellows.

It also has the added advantage of maximizing growth, especially with polygamy. Women widowed via conflict can aid in replacing battle losses and outgrowing enemy tribes.

There is a reason that gaydom is apparently more common in overcrowded cities. It is being legitimized expressly BECAUSE it inhibits growth. I would like to see some statistics on the rate of gays born in cities vs rural areas.
Mormons and Muslims have a strong case to assert their Constitutional right of religious liberty is violated by denying them the right to have more than one wife
Polygamy was only outlawed in the US after mormons had populated utah in record time. This is WHY that religion was invented in the first place.

Dec 12, 2014
consenting adults... emotionally capable of making such decisions
Adolescents have usually been considered adults in the context of these state-sponsored religions. The bat and bar mitzvahs traditionally signified adulthood, with all the duties and freedoms that it implied. The bible makes clear that 'children of our youth', or those children borne as early as possible in a womans life, were an especially valuable commodity when outgrowing the enemy was an imperative..

Modern society has struggled to redefine adolescents as children, and to keep women from reproducing until they are well into their 20s and 30s, expressly for the purpose of restricting population growth.

As animals which evolved at the mercy of high tropical attrition rates, we are naturally inclined to WANT to reproduce. Adolescents are emotionally incapable of resisting this urge without firm social restraint. Kids need to be convinced that going to school is more rewarding than making babies (its not.)

Dec 12, 2014
we refuse to accept that all factors that might redefine marriage are equal.

Doesn't matter in a court of law, which is the route chosen by homosexual marriage proponents to coerce society to accept their definition and to punish those who don't agree.
Muslims, Mormons and NAMBLA have just as much legal right to force society to define marriage their way regardless of what homosexuals want.

Age is not an equivalent factor for obvious reasons.

It's not obvious.
Historically, marriage could occur when a man and woman attained puberty and could bear children.
Homosexual couples can't naturally procreate so why does age matter to either partner?

Dec 12, 2014
And the hate Mafia at work here gave me nothing but low rank 1's.


I will try to give you the easy simple answer Skippy. The science experimenting has proven Ira-Skippy's Law. I'll dumb him down for you, basically it says: "Juliapenneross-Skippy is a moron and whenever he writes something everybody but stupid people give him a low rank 1's" It's more better tested than the Einstein-Skippy's theories.

In other words, they are saying that truth means nothing, just the engineered impression your get.


You should be thankful that the nice peoples at the physorg don't let us give the minus karma points. Now put your silly looking pointy cap back on and get over in that corner for being the couyon.

Dec 12, 2014
Ryggy thinks only the Quran demands the slaughter of unbelievers. His myopia is tiresome.

"BANGUI, Central African Republic – Tens of thousands of Muslims are fleeing to neighboring countries by plane and truck as Christian militias stage brutal attacks, shattering the social fabric of this war-ravaged nation.

"In towns and villages as well as here in the capital, Christian vigilantes wielding machetes have killed scores of Muslims, who are a minority here, and burned and looted their houses and mosques in recent days, according to witnesses, aid agencies and peacekeepers. Tens of thousands of Muslims have fled their homes."

-Also lets not forget Lebanese xian militias, the IRA, the lords resistance army, rwanda and Burundi, xian Serb militias, etc, etc, etc. All xian atrocity.

The books are all identical where it matters.

Dec 13, 2014
Which of God's laws and principles you do not like or think that are incorrect?

How about "there is a god?". That one seems pretty obviously false.

Dec 13, 2014
Which of God's laws and principles you do not like or think that are incorrect?

How about "there is a god?". That one seems pretty obviously false.

How can anyone who claims to support science say such a this?


Dec 13, 2014
Which of God's laws and principles you do not like or think that are incorrect?

How about "there is a god?". That one seems pretty obviously false.

How can anyone who claims to support science say such a this?


Correction: How can anyone who claims to support science say this?

Dec 13, 2014
Which of God's laws and principles you do not like or think that are incorrect?

How about "there is a god?". That one seems pretty obviously false.
@ryggie Correction: How can anyone who claims to support science say this?
They [positivists] proposed this principle to test if a statement makes a genuine true claim:

"A statement makes a genuine truth claim (is true or false) if and only if it's either EMPIRICAL (testable by sense experience) or ANALYTIC (true by definition)."

The positivists thought that "God exists" fails the test, since it's neither empirical (testable by sense experience) nor analytic (true by definition). They concluded that "God exists" isn't true or false; it lacks cognitive meaning and only expresses vague feelings. So it's senseless to ask whether there is a God.

http://www.harryh...--00.htm

Dec 13, 2014
Only a very confused person that never opened the Bible can claim such a thing. Which of God's laws and principles you do not like or think that are incorrect? Are you familiar with feeling love?
There are many offensive things in the bible, like condoning slavery and stoning insolent children and encouraging self-castration, but the most offensive is probably this:

"18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light" john3

-You can only be good if you believe in the godman. This god-mandated bigotry has killed the most people by far.

Dec 13, 2014
Which of God's laws and principles you do not like or think that are incorrect?

How about "there is a god?". That one seems pretty obviously false.
How can anyone who claims to support science say such a this?
There might well be a god but he is most certainly not the god who lies about the past, who writes a book that fails so thoroughly to describe the world he created, who requires genital mutilation and execution for blasphemy, who brings a sword into the world in order to destroy families, or who by example holds martyrdom as the highest expression of devotion to him.

THAT god is obviously man-made.

Dec 13, 2014
Only a very confused person that never opened the Bible can claim such a thing. Which of God's laws and principles you do not like or think that are incorrect?


Well, I guess I'm ok with the bible's support of prostitution ;), but I'm not wild about the bible's support for slavery, incest, and abortion. I also think that any requirements for getting into heaven are pretty amazingly evil considering the bible isn't clear on what those requirements are (given the number of religions that disagree on that point) and the bible is contradictory in general.

Dec 13, 2014
bible's support of prostitution

Really? Where?

Dec 13, 2014
21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light" john3
At any time 1/4 of humanity is coming toward the light with sunrise and 1/4 are leaving the light with sunset. Also half are in complete darkness. Will gawd simply appear randomly and smite 75% of humanity arbitrarily?

bible's support of prostitution
Really? Where?
Your Jesus, sun of Isis, loved wine and the hos so much he probably ran a brothel to support his extended family

Dec 13, 2014
>antialias_physorg

Person must have a good independent education to be able to see the works of God the in the world we live in. I do not know about you, but to me the idea that highly ordered world with finely tuned physical laws that emerged out of nowhere for no reason seems to me very strange.
Doesnt matter what 'seems' strange, it only matters what the evidence says. As far as strange goes, it seems strange to me that your omniscient, omnipotent god of truth and clarity is composed of 3 different parts. Or is it 3 separate entities combined into one? Church fathers spent decades trying to figure out how to make that work.

And instead of flooding the world and drowning every living thing on it, why didn't he just write his book a few thousand years earlier? Had not paper been invented back then?

Dec 13, 2014
At any time 1/4 of humanity is coming toward the light with sunrise and 1/4 are leaving the light with sunset. Also half are in complete darkness. Will gawd simply appear randomly and smite 75% of humanity arbitrarily?
Actually, lucifer means 'the illuminator'. I'm sure this is an inside xian joke. Religions can only survive by keeping people in the dark about the nature of themselves and the natural world.

Dec 13, 2014
Doesnt matter what 'seems' strange, it only matters what the evidence says. As far as strange goes, it seems strange to me that your omniscient, omnipotent god of truth and clarity is composed of 3 different parts. Or is it 3 separate entities combined into one? Church fathers spent decades trying to figure out how to make that work.

This originates from the incest queen whore Semiramus, or Ishtar with her King Nimrod. After his death when he became the sungod she became pregnant and declared that he had impregnated her from the sky. Since they were brother and sister the son (sun) of Nimrod the sungod was born. Tamus was the savior of humanity and a virgin birth since Semiramus claimed she never slept with her brother, she was divine, and she was above fucking other men. Semiramus was thus mother of gawd and Queen of Heaven. Tamus was born on 25 December and the 40 days of Lent are for mourning his death in a hunting accident with a wild boar

Dec 13, 2014
Actually, lucifer means 'the illuminator'. I'm sure this is an inside xian joke. Religions can only survive by keeping people in the dark about the nature of themselves and the natural world.
Yes Adam's frustration at being kept illiterate by his creator cast humanity out of paradise. Gawd likes his creations kept stupid and in darkness. In other words, his is a pathological liar with infinite power. Nice model for the kids

Dec 13, 2014
This originates from the incest queen whore Semiramus, or Ishtar with her King Nimrod. After his death when he became the sungod she became pregnant and declared that he had impregnated her from the sky. Since they were brother and sister the son (sun) of Nimrod the sungod was born. Tamus was the savior of humanity and a virgin birth since Semiramus claimed she never slept with her brother, she was divine, and she was above fucking other men. Semiramus was thus mother of gawd and Queen of Heaven
-and/or the Osiris/Isis/Horus trilogy.
Yes Adam's frustration at being kept illiterate by his creator cast humanity out of paradise. Gawd likes his creations kept stupid and in darkness
Because they ate of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil). Knowledge increases overgrowth. Good is what benefits your tribe and hurts rival tribes; evil is the reciprocal.

Dec 13, 2014
@Ren I do not know about you, but to me the idea that highly ordered world with finely tuned physical laws that emerged out of nowhere for no reason seems to me very strange.
In other words, your entire xtian schema presumes the existence of nothingness, which is a oxymoron. Your gawd is the gawd of nothing. Additionally you obviously lack a good education so your fantasies about same are only that

Dec 13, 2014
bible's support of prostitution


Really? Where?


There's a number of them, but the one I usually think about is Tamar in Genesis 38:1-26. In short, Tamar is married to Er, son of Judah. God kill Er for some unnamed offense. His brother can't bring himself to impregnate Tamar, so God kills him. Tamar gets tired of waiting for another husband and goes to confront Judah. But the garments Tamar is wearing hide her identity and Judah takes her as a prostitute. He has sex with her in exchange for a kid from his flock (kind of the definition of prostitution). When he finds out that she's pregnant, he sentences her to death - the punishment for adultery. After she mentions that he's the father, she's allowed to live. And God doesn't kill her, so he's not displeased - not surprising since Tamar is an ancestor of Jesus ;). So God's ok with prostitutes.

Also see http://noreligion...e-bible/

Dec 13, 2014
bible's support of prostitution


Really? Where?


There's a number of them, but the one I usually think about is Tamar in Genesis 38:1-26.
...
Also see http://noreligion...e-bible/


But as a good Christian, I'm sure you've read the entire bible and know all about them already, right? ;)

Dec 13, 2014
This comment has been removed by a moderator.

Dec 13, 2014
>kochevnik

According to the gurus of the big bang theory the universe originated from a very dense very hot spot, which emerged as a result of some random quantum instability in the primary space. Therefore, according to their view point can say that appeared literally out of nowhere after they can not know how and why.

No, the theorists do not build a theory for something outside spacetime, Ren. When you write about things outside spactime you sound like some Haitian voodoo witch doctor with a bone through your nose. Except the Haitian didn't know any better and he didn't murder a billion people with some bullshiyte religion invented by a Roman emperor who made himself pope. Also your byllshiyte religion was named for the pagan god Catholicus - the pagan cosmic god

If you know so much about nowhere, Ren, maybe that is where you are from

Dec 13, 2014
According to the gurus of the big bang theory the universe originated from a very dense very hot spot, which emerged as a result of some random quantum instability in the primary space. Therefore, according to their view point can say that appeared literally out of nowhere after they can not know how and why
No, according to religionists they cannot know how or why. No scientist would claim this.
According to my and of many others point of view universe came thanks to God's will and opportunities.
Your god says joshua fit the battle of jericho. Evidence says it had been a ruin for 200 years before joshua would have gotten there.

And you know thats not the only thing your god got wrong. He got most everything wrong in that history book of his.

What makes you think he knows anything at all about how the universe got started?

Dec 13, 2014
bible's support of prostitution


Really? Where?


There's a number of them, but the one I usually think about is Tamar in Genesis 38:1-26.
...
Also see http://noreligion...e-bible/


But as a good Christian, I'm sure you've read the entire bible and know all about them already, right? ;)

Where does God support prostitution in the Bible?
God opposed the state, 1 Samuel 8: 10-20.

Dec 13, 2014
bible's support of prostitution


Really? Where?


There's a number of them, but the one I usually think about is Tamar in Genesis 38:1-26.
...
Also see http://noreligion...e-bible/


But as a good Christian, I'm sure you've read the entire bible and know all about them already, right? ;)

Where does God support prostitution in the Bible?
God opposed the state, 1 Samuel 8: 10-20.
ryggy doesn't care what it SAYS. He only cares what it's SUPPOSED to say.

"20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

Dec 13, 2014
Why do those who are religious like capital punishment and hate homosexual love?

Dec 13, 2014
Why do those who are religious like capital punishment and hate homosexual love?

It's weird, isn't it? Especially since the purported founder was so much for extending compassion towards anyone who was outcast in any way (and also the fact that not killing is pretty central to the old and especially the new)

It's bizarre to see how the current crop of 'believers' are so exactly opposite to what they supposedly base their belief on. It's just a perversion of what the religion was supposed to be to make it into a justification for what mean, little minds crave to do.

Dec 13, 2014
Why do those who are religious like capital punishment and hate homosexual love?


Not a very scientific assertion is it?

What percent of what religions?

Hate the sin, love the sinner.
I don't support the death penalty.

Dec 13, 2014
The atheist police state. No wonder anti is such a rabid atheist. The state is most important.

""Whether it's a grown man placed in a chokehold by police for selling cigarettes, or a middle school student body slammed for wearing rosary beads to a football game, the end result is the same: Americans can no longer take for granted the possibility of peaceful, nonviolent, routine interactions with police,"
Read more at http://freedomout...wSS7p.99

Dec 13, 2014
At the end of the day when two adults engage in sex how is it anyone else's business but theirs? Why do people care what consenting adults do in their bedrooms, jealousy perhaps?

Dec 13, 2014
The atheist police state. No wonder anti is such a rabid atheist. The state is most important
Are you homeless, Ryggie? You rant like some of the derelicts I pass when taking walks

Dec 13, 2014
'Liberals' try to impose upon the rest of the world their schemes to save the human race from itself.
Why do people care what consenting adults do in their bedrooms,


Ever hear of HIV or AIDS? How many have died and will die?
Chlamydia leads to cervical cancer.
Syphilis has changed the history of the world, many times.

Why should anyone care?

Dec 13, 2014
Where does God support prostitution in the Bible?


So let's see if I understand you. We know from this story in the bible that god kills those who displease him. We know that adultery is prohibited in the bible. Yet we have two people who commit adultery, one of who accepted pay for the act and so was a prostitute, and not only does god not punish them but the result of their tryst eventually results in Jesus. The fact that they weren't smote down is clear indication that their adulterous affair did not offend god and, yet, god prohibits adultery. The two things the bible story says is that one of the participants was a prostitute and the other was a political/religious leader. So you could go with saying the bible supports adultery as long as one participant is a political or religious leader, but I don't think that helps you. I think most people will accept no adultery except through prostitution before they'll accept no adultery except with a politician. ;)

Dec 13, 2014
'Liberals' try to impose upon the rest of the world their schemes to save the human race from itself.
Why do people care what consenting adults do in their bedrooms,
@ryggie the righteous
Ever hear of HIV or AIDS? How many have died and will die?
Chlamydia leads to cervical cancer.
Syphilis has changed the history of the world, many times.

Why should anyone care?
So now you're a socialist or a communist, ryggie? You still don't want to fund public health, but want people instead judged and marginalized. Very christian of you. I'm not even an advocate of gay marriage or marriage in general. But the insect politics of conservaturds drives me to the other side of that pendulum. Humanity has evolved beyond the insect phase, ryggie

Dec 14, 2014
Satan is referred to in the Bible.
God created Satan, yet did not destroy him.
God didn't destroy Eve for following Satan.
Based on z's logic, the Bible supports evil.

Dec 14, 2014
"Christian bakeries that refuse to make pro-homosexual marriage cakes are getting sued, they get fined, they get death threats, and they lose their businesses.

So Shoebat.com called some 13 prominent bakers who are pro-gay and requested that they make a pro-traditional marriage cake with the words "Gay marriage is wrong" placed on the cake. Each one denied us service, and even used deviant insults and obscenities against us. "
http://shoebat.co...g-video/

Dec 14, 2014
>kochevnik

To understand that you are familiar with pseudo scientific (purely philosophical) concept of the big bang, explain the view of the big bang gurus for the origin of the universe as you know it. Will be curious to read this from your comment.
Yes the big bang theory was proposed by a religionist. Scientists are searching for better models. Google it yourself Ren, you lazy xtian

Dec 14, 2014
How many atheists are funding research into Biblical archeology?

After watching Curse of Oak Island, I wonder why no serious, well funded expedition is underway. Maybe too many really don't want to know.

Dec 14, 2014
The atheist police state. No wonder anti is such a rabid atheist. The state is most important.

You have this very weird black and white attitude. I can see that absolutes appeal to simple minds. But I'm more for seeing things in a differentiated way. Reality is far too complex for anything else (physical reality - but especially social reality).

The state has its place. And it need to be confined to that place:
Providing that which individuals can't:
- security systems that help out in case of individual hardship beyond the individual's control
- a measure of justice and a level playing field between people
- a long term persepective to keep people from plunging society into chaos due to the individual's time-horizon being rather short.

But as for acts that do not impact on other people (e.g. their sexuality or their religious affiliation and many other areas) the state had better butt out.

Dec 14, 2014
level playing field between people


From each, to each?

long term persepective to keep people from plunging society into chaos


If reality is so complex, as you say, how can the state have more perfect knowledge then individuals?

Dec 14, 2014
"Christian bakeries that refuse to make pro-homosexual marriage cakes are getting sued, they get fined, they get death threats, and they lose their businesses.

So Shoebat.com called some 13 prominent bakers who are pro-gay and requested that they make a pro-traditional marriage cake with the words "Gay marriage is wrong" placed on the cake. Each one denied us service, and even used deviant insults and obscenities against us. "
http://shoebat.co...g-video/


You're doing it again....you're equating bigotry with tolerance.

Dec 14, 2014
a possible reason


Progressives have vigorously controlled both education and the media for 50 years?

Propaganda is a powerful tool, controlling the definition of words, what is allowed, and not allowed, to be discussed in the public arena, and the (mis)education of callow youts, even more so.

Dec 14, 2014
"The state" doesn't have the answers any more: They are just fiddling around in the noise while Rome burns around them: They give sound bite answers based on what they think will get them re-elected: While the real power brokers plough on regardless.
The economists and environmentalists tell us how we are screwed.
The open minded folk may ask why our banks and malls look like modern temples:
That leaves the psychologists and religious folk to explain 'why' we are so screwed, if their words are of real value.
Bigots and dogmatics here don't have the answers either. They are part of the wilful ignorance which is the real root of the problem.

Dec 14, 2014
>kochevnik

Late proposal. I did it long before your recommendation. After you claim something you must be able to explain it.
What is the antecedent of "it", Ren? Knowledge does not require explanation. Knowledge IS explanation. Again i recommend you go to school and stop displaying your illiteracy in public

Dec 14, 2014
>kochevnik

To understand that you are familiar with pseudo scientific (purely philosophical) concept of the big bang, explain the view of the big bang gurus for the origin of the universe as you know it. Will be curious to read this from your comment.

There are many scientific facts that contradict the big bang theory imposed as dogma in scientific community, but you barely do not know them and I doubt that even you doing trial to teach them. This theory have the status of religion because do not rely ot scientific facts and evidence.


We all know that space is expanding. This has been observed by countless different scientists and researchers.

Now, since we know this as a fact, if you want to know what happened a long time ago and you were to push "rewind" on the universe....what happens?

Dec 14, 2014
Then again, if it's science you think is "weak" and religion and faith is superior...what is your alternate explanation? It was all done 5000 years ago in seven days?

The same science that powers your computer, lights, car, cell phone, television, that printed your bible, that saved you with antibiotics the last time you had an infection, etc etc ETC gives us the theory of the big bang. A theory which has been vindicated by virtually every observation to date, the biggest of which was the CMB, and the abundance of light elements which can't really be explained any other way.

Now did reading the bible ever allow you to talk to someone else around the world on a small box? Cure an infection? Transmit video data to you home? Get you to work in a vehicle? Allow you to post religious nonsense on your computer to the internet?

I have a suggestion. Leave the REAL world to science. Feel free to count angels on pin heads in your own time if you wish, no one here cares.

Dec 14, 2014
I don't know why some folks think they have anything to do who is loving who and why the law should regulate it.
If you are in love with another person it's your choise and others could go and fuck them self.
I couldn't care less who you love

Dec 14, 2014
Why do those who are religious like capital punishment and hate homosexual love?


Research has shown beyond doubt that the biggest homophobes are in fact homosexuals who have not yet come out.
Just look at the former leader of "pray for a gay" who has married a man.

We other men is just happy with the fact that for every gay marrige there is two more women for us.

Dec 14, 2014
You're doing it again....you're equating bigotry with tolerance

Homosexuals who attack Christians who don't support homosexual marriage are not intolerant?
Leave the REAL world to science.

Human society, art, philosophy, consciousness, the soul, ...are not a part of the real world?

I couldn't care less who you love

Then you must support the state granting no preference or recognition to 'marriage'.

Dec 14, 2014
"The state" doesn't have the answers any more:


When did the state ever have the answers?

Dec 14, 2014
Satan is referred to in the Bible.
God created Satan, yet did not destroy him.
God didn't destroy Eve for following Satan.
Based on z's logic, the Bible supports evil.

Hmm, wasn't Eve (and all women) punished for her actions? Haven't you read the bible? Contrast this to the story of Tamar who was sentenced to death, in accordance with god's laws, and who only won reprieve after it was revealed that she was acting as a prostitute at the time.

Now stories in the bible are supposed to serve as lessons for the rest of us in how we should live our lives. Here we have a story in the bible that shows that, according to the bible, the sentence for adultery is death unless one of the participants is a prostitute. That seems like support for prostitution.

Or you could claim it's just a story and doesn't have any significance. But since there's no way to tell which stories are important that means that either all stories are important or none of them are.

Dec 14, 2014
So, ryggesogn2, which do you follow: Are all stories in the bible important and the bible supports prostitution (and slavery and abortion and incest) or are none of the stories important and it's just another piece of fiction?

Dec 14, 2014
Are all stories in the bible important

Yes.

just another piece of fiction?


Does it matter?

Meaningful fiction is called literature.

Aesop's Fables have much truth to teach.

Atheists must be quite opposed to all literature courses in schools and universities as all literature is fiction is is meaningless.

At a minimum, the Bible must be taken as historical literature and those who have faith can choose to believe it contains the Word of God.

Satan and his followers are quite knowledgeable of every word of the Bible. But those who have faith in God don't need to waste their time on the details as they understand the message the Bible is conveying. They understand the big picture.

Dec 14, 2014
Satan and his followers are quite knowledgeable of every word of the Bible
-as opposed to believers who have no idea what's in there. So bible critics are now satanists, eh ryggy? You're really sinking fast aren't you?
But those who have faith in God don't need to waste their time on the details as they understand the message the Bible is conveying
IOW they don't CARE what it says, they only care what it's SUPPOSED to say. Churchers sit in their pews smug in the knowledge that the bible says they are going to heaven, while shunning the the unbelievers next door. Because the bible says THIS is how you get to heaven.

Meanwhile, believers elsewhere are slaughtering the unbelievers next door because the bible says THIS is how you get to heaven.

Ryggy could care less about what the bible actually says. Neither do they. Religionists are first and foremost selfish. They don't care what others do in the name of their god, as long as they themselves get into paradise.

Dec 14, 2014
minimum, the Bible must be taken as historical literature and those who have faith can choose to believe it contains the Word of God
So your only explanation for all the evidence which says the bible stories didn't happen, is that god obliterated it all and replaced it with completely convincing contrary evidence. But why would the omnipotent, omniscient source of everything good and true, the god who could do absolutely ANYTHING at all, choose to go to such extreme lengths to deceive us about the past?

Is he really the kind of god who would LIE to us to find out how much we TRUST him?? Doesn't that seem particularly wicked to you ryggy?

Accept the most reasonable explanation, that the bible was composed by people who WERE that wicked. They invented a whole history out of thin air, for the purpose of ruling and conquering.

Dec 14, 2014
Now did reading the bible ever allow you to talk to someone else around the world on a small box? Cure an infection? Transmit video data to you home? Get you to work in a vehicle? Allow you to post religious nonsense on your computer to the internet?


Science has never provided anyone with peace or joy.

Technology is not wisdom.

How does science make people more wise?
Science has supported the folly of a Utopia. Many socialists who post here have faith that science can and must be used to impose a perfect society, one to rule us all.

A recurring theme in Bible is God's people have 'faith' for a generation or two after God demonstrates his power.
It continues today. The past 2500 years can be roughly divided into 500 year blocks where a civilization rose, then fell while another rose. Greeks to Rome, to Holy Roman Empire to Spain, Britain, USA. The trend over this time as been more individual liberty and more prosperity, but not wisdom.

Dec 14, 2014
'Liberals' who have benefited from this liberty and prosperity are rejecting the wisdom that earned that liberty.
Eschewing laws and custom that build and support society.
Aiding and supporting barbarians who would slit their throats in a second.
'Liberalism' is a cult of death, destruction and debauchery with no faith and no hope.

Dec 14, 2014
How many atheists are funding research into Biblical archeology?

After watching Curse of Oak Island, I wonder why no serious, well funded expedition is underway. Maybe too many really don't want to know.
Its obvious you don't know anything about the history of archeology in the Middle East. Many of these scientists are very religious indeed. And they will admit that what they found convinces them that the bible stories didn't happen.

Dec 14, 2014
>kochevnik

Late proposal. I did it long before your recommendation. After you claim something you must be able to explain it.

... In a way that others clearly and logically understand and accept...

Dec 14, 2014
Science has never provided anyone with peace or joy
What a ridiculous statement. Consider the joy of parents when medicine cures their sick children. Watch Neil degrasse Tyson describe the wonder and majesty he feels when contemplating the universe as it actually is.

But then according to you he's a satanist so oh well.
the folly of a utopia
This does not match the folly of a heaven, which millions have sacrificed their lives to reach ahead of schedule.

If heaven is as real as Nazareth at the time of jesus' birth, then they needn't have bothered. Because uh Nazareth didn't exist back then, according to the evidence your god left.

Dec 14, 2014
Homosexuals who attack Christians who don't support homosexual marriage are not intolerant?


What?

Who's attacking Christians? I was talking about bigots...unless you're saying all Christians are bigots...

Human society, art, philosophy, consciousness, the soul, ...are not a part of the real world?


Yep, by definition anything is part of the real world. Including human fantasies. They may not be real, but they're concepts in a real framework.

Dec 14, 2014
Well if you use the power of government to silence critics of Homosexual Marriage, if you use the power of the government to bankrupt anyone business owners who disagree with Homosexual Marriage, if you use Media to portray a false narrative of Homosexuals and Homosexual Marriage, if you use schools to promote homosexual lifestyles, while at the same time preventing the truth about homosexual lifestyle from being discussed, what do you think would happen.

Dec 14, 2014
Technology is not wisdom.

How does science make people more wise?

Shouldn't you be delivering this message via burning bush, or voice from the sky rather than on a computer? The fact that you are using science to spread your message is ironic.

Dec 14, 2014
Another example of 'liberal' folly:

"How Government Killed the Medical Profession"
http://www.cato.o...ofession

The fact that you are using science to spread your message is ironic.


You think technology has improved wisdom?

Who's attacking Christians?

Homosexual and atheist bigots who don't agree with them.

Dec 14, 2014
Homosexual fascism:

" In Oregon, Christian bakers who refused to sell a wedding cake to two lesbians face hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines.

In Washington state, an elderly Christian florist could face hefty fines after she refused to provide wedding flowers to two gay men.

A Christian Colorado baker is appealing a judge's decision ordering him to start baking wedding cakes for homosexuals and to provide his staff with sensitivity training, after he refused to create a wedding cake for two gay guys.
"
http://nypost.com...ir-farm/

As a reminder, under Fascism, the state controls private property forcing property owners to do state bidding without compensation, state slaves.

Dec 14, 2014
You think technology has improved wisdom?

Technology allows the rapid acquisition of knowledge. What one decides to do with that knowledge decides wisdom.
You seem to have the philosophy that knowledge is irrelevant to wisdom.
Satan and his followers are quite knowledgeable of every word of the Bible. But those who have faith in God don't need to waste their time on the details as they understand the message the Bible is conveying. They understand the big picture.

In your words the knowledge of Bible is a waste of time.

Dec 14, 2014
...what do you think would happen.

That's an excellent question - what do you think will happen as a result of giving minority cultures and lifestyles a greater level of equality with everyone else?

Where I live, some years ago (1980s) there was a major nationwide debate about "homosexual law reform" - making homosexuality between males legal (note that it never was illegal for women to be in gay relationships). There was a vocal minority, mostly made up of the religious conservative right, who pointed to this as being "the beginning of the end, the breakdown of society and law and order was certain to follow, children would be conscripted or lured into homosexuality from school age, AIDS would become prevalent, family would become an anachronism, god would smite us", etc, etc. These proponents of bigotry called for rallies against the Bill, presented petitions and tried their best to foment antagonism against gays in the population. The Bill passed into Law anyway.

Cont.

Dec 14, 2014
In the early 2000s there was a move to decriminalise prostitution. The old Law that criminalised prostitution was outmoded, difficult to police and administer, easily got around anyway and discriminated against women in the sex industry while allowing pimping by gangs and others without fear of prosecution. The proposed Law would remedy this and be non-discriminatory against sex workers thereby empowering them. There was a vocal minority, mostly made up of the religious conservative right, who pointed to this as being "the beginning of the end, the breakdown of society and law and order was certain to follow, otherwise good family men would all become clients of prostitutes, marriages would suffer, family would become an anachronism, god would smite us", etc, etc. These proponents of bigotry called for rallies against the Bill, presented petitions and tried their best to keep the discriminatory "good old ways". The Bill passed into Law anyway.

Cont.

Dec 14, 2014
" In Oregon, Christian bakers who refused to sell a wedding cake to two lesbians face hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines.


The segregationist-Skippys made the same complaint.

In Washington state, an elderly Christian florist could face hefty fines after she refused to provide wedding flowers to two gay men.


That's the same complaint that the "white only" crowd had.

A Christian Colorado baker is appealing a judge's decision ordering him to start baking wedding cakes for homosexuals and to provide his staff with sensitivity training, after he refused to create a wedding cake for two gay guys.


You win the trifecta Skippy.

But you get the fascist-Skippy part backwards. The NAZI-Skippys made discrimination the law, not the other way around.

A business open to the public, has to serve the whole public. That's the law and it is a good law.

Dec 14, 2014
Last year, after "Civil Unions" (living together as a formalised de facto couple) were allowed in Law in 2005, a Bill to allow marriage for same-sex couples was proposed. This followed several high-profile gay and lesbian people and many others speaking out in favour of this equality under the Law for all couples wishing to be married. There was a vocal minority, mostly made up of the religious conservative right, who pointed to this as being "the beginning of the end, the breakdown of society and law and order was certain to follow, children would suffer because who would be the father/mother figure in the household, we'd have a generation of people with psychiatric and gender identification problems, family would become an anachronism, god would smite us", etc, etc. These proponents of bigotry called for rallies against the Bill, presented petitions and tried their best to keep the "good old ways" that made same-sex marriage illegal. The Bill passed into Law anyway.

Cont.

Dec 14, 2014
I'm sure you begin (however dimly, perhaps) to see some thematic similarities amongst the arguments made against each of these Laws. Well, here we are nearly in 2015 and none of those dire forewarnings have happened yet. In my opinion, our society is more stable, more diverse, richer, more liberal and more equal under the Law because of these changes.

So I reiterate my question to you: what exactly do you think will happen as a result of making people more equal under the Law?

Dec 14, 2014
The segregationist-Skippys made the same complaint.

Segregation was state imposed and supported.

children would suffer because who would be the father/mother figure in the household,

Like most black youth who are murdering each other.

Dec 14, 2014
You people spouting shit about homosexuality being a sin are disgusting, you have no idea how to even follow your own religious teachings. You rampantly run around committing sins your entire life, whether it is stealing a piece of gum, lusting after a neighbor, or friend, telling lies. And yet you are so damned brainwashed by this book you claim to build your life around you are too blind to see how hypocritical you are. No where in your beloved bible at any point does it say to hate people, black, white, yellow, brown, straight, gay, transgender, mentally or physically handicapped. According to the book you swear by (when it suits your needs), everyone is supposed to be loved, and if they are sinners your so-called God is the one who will deal with that. Not you, it isn't your job to persecute them, or to spread hate and unwarranted fear. You are nothing but bigots, and If I were your god, I would send you to the deepest depths of hell until you realized your ignorance.

Dec 14, 2014


Satan and his followers are quite knowledgeable of every word of the Bible. But those who have faith in God don't need to waste their time on the details as they understand the message the Bible is conveying. They understand the big picture.


Typical "Christian"

"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?"

- Mark Twain

It is amazing to me that some of the most hateful people in the world are those who spout the word of "God". The only people you accept are people with similar religious values to your own. Congratulations on being a bigot. If you are looking to keep "Satan" out of your lives stay away from mirrors.

Dec 14, 2014

I couldn't care less who you love

Then you must support the state granting no preference or recognition to 'marriage'.

?


Dec 14, 2014
The segregationist-Skippys made the same complaint.

Segregation was state imposed and supported..


No, you are wrong about that Skippy. It was business & church imposed and state supported.

Sort of like those NAZI-Skippys you were whining about. But it does not suprise me that you wouldn't see the contradiction when you describe the gay peoples as Homosexual-fascists. That would be like calling the European Jews as fascist because they didn't like the way they were singled out for discrimination.

Dec 14, 2014
Are all stories in the bible important?


Yes.

Then an important story that shows that a woman was saved from death merely because she's a prostitute would certainly indicate that the bible supports prostitution.

At a minimum, the Bible must be taken as historical literature and those who have faith can choose to believe it contains the Word of God.

So, as you indicate, those who have faith would have to say that the bible supports prostitution - unless, of course, you're denying that part of the bible (has the cock crowed yet? ;).

But those who have faith in God don't need to waste their time on the details as they understand the message the Bible is conveying. They understand the big picture.

So, in other words, you're saying that those who have faith in god can ignore the parts of the "word of god" that they don't like and just stick with the part that matches their philosophy. ;)

Dec 14, 2014
Well if you use the power of government to silence critics of Homosexual Marriage, if you use the power of the government to bankrupt anyone business owners who disagree with Homosexual Marriage, if you use Media to portray a false narrative of Homosexuals and Homosexual Marriage, if you use schools to promote homosexual lifestyles, while at the same time preventing the truth about homosexual lifestyle from being discussed, what do you think would happen.


Most likely everyone in the world would become homosexual and the human race would no longer exist as we would be unable to reproduce.

You can't possibly be stupid enough to believe that.. i mean really. I realize that you're stupid, just from your comments, but you can't be that stupid. If I die, I would rather my two sons get adopted by a nice gay couple than be within 1000 miles of your ignorance, stupidity, and cloud of hate you have around you.

Dec 14, 2014
You think technology has improved wisdom?
Well science gave us technology. Technology is the reward for understanding the importance of evidence in figuring out how the world really works. Accepting the world for what it is instead of what you think it ought to be, is very wise indeed.

Understanding the holy books for what they say instead of what you want them to say, and what the salesmen tell you they say, is also very wise indeed. Wisdom helps you to avoid being taken for a ride, sold a bill of goods, fleeced, bamboozled, swindled, etc.

What does your book say about wisdom? "Fear of god is the beginning of wisdom" -it says. And verily, I do fear and loathe your god. Evidence tells me he is a very wicked, evil guy.

Dec 14, 2014
Listened to an interesting program on NPR the other night (yes NPR! It was painful but it was the only thing on!) It was an interview with a woman who along with her husband had adopted 4 crack-addicted babies (from the same woman), one after the other.

She finally decided that something had to be done, and so set up a program to pay addicts who would agree to voluntary sterilization. You can imagine ryggy how much hate mail she received, a lot from indignant religionists who thought god was already handling this appropriately, but she also got over $1M in donations for the cause.

She said the majority of the women were white so it's hard to argue eugenics. It's just another example of accepting the world for what it is.

'God helps those who help themselves.' But since he never really does, it's good to know that people like this are ready to step up, eh ryggy? Mother Theresa was happy to house destitute women but was unwilling to hand out birth control and treat the cause.

Dec 15, 2014
But those who have faith in God don't need to waste their time on the details as they understand the message the Bible is conveying. They understand the big picture.

So, in other words, you're saying that those who have faith in god can ignore the parts of the "word of god" that they don't like and just stick with the part that matches their philosophy


Yep. To quote myself:
It's just a perversion of what the religion was supposed to be to make it into a justification for what mean, little minds crave to do.


The sad part is that they don't even know how mean they are. It's those people that will happily watch as others are burned, gassed, executed, etc. ..and even help in the act if given half the chance.

Dec 15, 2014
you're saying that those who have faith in god can ignore the parts of the "word of god" that they don't like and just stick with the part that matches their philosophy. ;)


Nope.
But that is what the atheist do.

Dec 15, 2014
you're saying that those who have faith in god can ignore the parts of the "word of god" that they don't like and just stick with the part that matches their philosophy. ;)


Nope.
But that is what the atheist do.


A couple points:
1. You have admitted in this thread that you do ignore the parts of the bible that you don't like. How arrogant do you have to be to say that god was wrong in parts of the bible.
2. Atheists understand that the bible is a piece of fiction written by humans and that there's nothing magical about it. There are good parts and there are evil parts. We may get some ideas from it, but by and large we do ignore it because we know there's nothing special about it. I've also read another ancient book, The Odyssey, but I've never claimed that it's a blueprint on how to live my life.

Dec 15, 2014
I'm just loving the comments on this article. Keep it up.

Dec 15, 2014
I just want to make it clear that I believe gays are sick, depraved and totally bad for society.
In the bible story of Sodom and Gomorrah God made it very clear what should happen to them.

Dec 15, 2014
you're saying that those who have faith in god can ignore the parts of the "word of god" that they don't like and just stick with the part that matches their philosophy. ;)


Nope.
But that is what the atheist do.
I would say that most atheists have little idea what's in the bible and don't much care. But religionists who accept the word of god as it was written are necessarily fundys. What choice do they have but to do what God TOLD them to do?

Where in your book does it say that you get to pick and choose what to follow? This selective worship was invented during the enlightenment because it was the only way for the church to survive. Secular law forbade the barbarism of the literal bible and so the clergy had to get creative.

But the barbarism is still in your book and true believers are free to act in it when they can get away with it.

Dec 15, 2014
I just want to make it clear that I believe gays are sick, depraved and totally bad for society.
In the bible story of Sodom and Gomorrah God made it very clear what should happen to them.
Every form of sex disgusts someone, and probably for very good biological reasons. Tribalists in the tropics would naturally abhor sexual practices which would restrict it's growth, because the tribe could fail to match attrition rates. Disgust might be the natural reaction to non-procreative sex in this environment.

Conversely, societies in overcrowded regions would prefer sexual practices which restrict growth, and our biology apparently has innate mechanisms to allow for this.

Religions create an artificial perception of a tribe in the wilderness. Believers are brainwashed into believing that the world needs to be filled up with THEM. The subsequent overcrowding and the suffering it causes is the infidels fault.

This may indicate how powerful culture can be in altering biology.

Dec 15, 2014

Homosexual and atheist bigots who don't agree with them.


Now we really have to make distinctions with you. I understand why you equivocate....I did the same thing when I was a Christian.

Here's the difference. Christians who also happen to be bigots actually DO attack homosexuals, including legislation which prohibits consenting adults from entering into legal and consensual agreements based on nothing other than who they sleep with, and up to MURDER.

Someone refusing to put a backward and bigoted message on a cake ISN'T an attack. It's an affirmation that they've moved past the middle ages and have joined the modern world. Moreover it isn't even an attack on Christians, it's an attack on ignorance and hateful behavior.

Seriously get off your cross and put on some big boy pants here...

Dec 15, 2014
I say again that I think epigenetics creates homosexuals. Mothers who perceive a state of overcrowding, insufficient resources, and excess reproductive competition for their first born, may epigenetically neuter their unborn children.

Is this a 'hormonal imbalance'? Can, and should, it be treated? If religion would stop forcing overgrowth then the perception would be that there is room enough in this world for everybody. Western civilization has demonstrated it can produce zero growth.

So perhaps if we want to 'cure' homosexuality we need to end religion.

A possibly related issue - upwards of 50% of the clergy in the Catholic Church, are gay. The images of the effeminate godman and his mother, the only woman ever to conceive without being sullied by the touch of a man, seem to have been designed to attract gays to serve in monasteries and nunneries where they would be free to enjoy their alternative lifestyles. Celibacy is a convenient way of avoiding a sham marriage.

Dec 15, 2014
@barely-human I just want to make it clear that I believe gays are sick, depraved and totally bad for society. In the bible story of Sodom and Gomorrah God made it very clear what should happen to them.
Did you know your handle means you like sex with men? You wouldn't sleep with an attractive woman because she is bisexual? Fine by me. BTW many women are bisexual usually the better looking in particular

Dec 15, 2014
Information about Homosexuality and the Nazi Party:

the Nazi Party began in a gay bar in Munich, and Ernst Roehm, Hitler's right hand in the early days of Nazism, was well-known for his taste in young boys. William Shirer says in his definitive "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," not only that Roehm was "important in the rise of Hitler," but also "like so many of the early Nazis, (he was) a homosexual."

Hitler eventually had Roehm shot, not because he was a homosexual but because his influence over the Brown Shirts made him a political threat to Hitler's control. The Roehm Purge, or "Night of the Long Knives," was largely implemented by homosexuals.

Hitler's Brown Shirts, the dreaded SA, better known as "Storm Troopers," were the creation of another homosexual, Gerhard Rossbach, and Storm Troopers were almost exclusively homosexual. They also, sadly, comprised most of the leadership of the Hitler Youth, resulting in frequent instances of sexual molestation

Dec 15, 2014
The Brown Shirts were Hitler's enforcers. According to Nazi historian Louis Snyder, Roehm recruited homosexuals into the SA because Roehm felt Germany needed "a proud and arrogant lot who could brawl, carouse, smash windows, kill and slaughter for the hell of it. Straights, in (Roehm's) eyes, were not as adept in such behavior as practicing homosexuals."

Of the Brown Shirts, historian Thomas Fuchs says, "The principle function of this army-like organization was beating up on anyone who opposed the Nazis, and Hitler believed this was a job best undertaken by homosexuals."

Historian H.R. Knickerbocker writes, "Roehm, as the head of 2,500,000 Storm Troops, had surrounded himself with a staff of perverts. His chiefs were almost without exception homosexuals. Indeed, unless a Storm Troop officer were homosexual, he had no chance of advancement."

Dec 15, 2014
OMG.....

What do you say to something like that ignorant diatribe ^

Again, it's equivocation on the worst level, and shows the absolute worst in a human being short of physical violence. It's so disgusting it almost makes me physically ill....

Dec 15, 2014
There of course is no question that the Nazis rounded up effeminate homosexuals and a great many of them died in slave labor camps as a result of mistreatment and disease. Historians estimate that less than one percent of Europe's homosexual community died at the hands of the Nazis. While even one such death is too many, this pales in comparison to the 85% of Europe's Jews who, unlike homosexuals, were sent to gas chambers.

Many of the guards and administrators responsible for concentration camp horrors were themselves homosexuals. Famous Nazi hunter Elie Weisel was sent to Auschwitz, where he discovered that the head of his part of the camp "loved children," and observed that "there was a considerable traffic in young children among homosexuals there."

A Nazi administrator at Treblinka, according to one historian, "had a harem of little Jewish boys" and "sought in Treblinka only the satisfaction of his homosexual instincts."


Dec 15, 2014
I find it interesting that Truth about Homosexuals is considered hate speech by Progressives.

We can talk about homosexuals more likely to commit child abuse but that might offend those that hate the truth.

Dec 15, 2014
Homosexuals are overrepresented in child sex offenses: Individuals from the 1 to 3 percent of the population that is sexually attracted to the same sex are committing up to one-third of the sex crimes against children.

Pedophile themes abound in and is accepted as normal in homosexual literary culture: Gay fiction as well as serious academic treatises promote "intergenerational intimacy."

Then you need to remember that Sexual Abuse of Boys is Underreported

The actual percentage of child sexual abuse victims who are boys very likely exceeds the above estimates. Many researchers echo the view of the Journal of Child Psychiatry study, which refers to the "under-reporting of the incidence and prevalence of sexual abuse in boys."

Dec 15, 2014
I find it interesting that Truth about Homosexuals is considered hate speech by Progressives.

We can talk about homosexuals more likely to commit child abuse but that might offend those that hate the truth.


It's not that we don't want to hear about the history. It's not that we want to deny anything. It's the malicious INTENT behind your comments that I find astoundingly ignorant and repulsive. It's your attempt to smear by association in this CONTEXT all homosexuals as Nazis. Look up the logical fallacy of equivocation and try to LEARN something when you read it.

Seriously? You can't see what your doing here and how inappropriate it is?

Dec 15, 2014
The top six U.S. male serial killers were all gay:

• Donald Harvey claimed 37 victims in Kentucky;

• John Wayne Gacy raped and killed 33 boys in Chicago, burying them under his house and in his yard;

• Patrick Kearney accounted for 32, cutting his victims into small pieces after sex and leaving them in trash bags along the Los Angeles freeways;

• Bruce Davis molested and killed 27 young men and boys in Illinois;

• A gay sex-murder-torture ring (Corll-Henley-Brooks) sent 27 Texas men and boys to their grave; and

• Juan Corona was convicted of murdering 25 migrant workers (he "made love" with their corpses).

Dec 15, 2014
The two biggest mass murderers in history were heterosexual....Mao and Stalin. Should we lock you up now? Give you electroshock therapy? Give you hormone injections to make you gay? I mean it's just a matter of time before you go off half cocked because you sleep with women isn't it?!

Well?

You couldn't have provided a more text book example of a bigot, seriously. Everything from equivocation to trying to make everyone else share your fears that if homosexuals were accepted into society that it would somehow "all fall down"...

Classic.


Dec 15, 2014
@freeofthinking Your bye-bull prescribes pedophilia: "They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man........Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7,17-18)"

Dec 15, 2014
In case you want a counter example I'll give you ONE that killed more than EVERY serial killer you listed combined...

http://en.wikiped...iller%29

Dec 15, 2014
We can talk about homosexuals more likely to commit child abuse but that might offend those that hate the truth
See this proves my point. Freethinking the frothing fundy feels instinctive disgust of those who threaten the maximum reproductive rate of the favorite tribe of god.

Rejoice! You're an animal ft. And as the bible tells us, 'god tests us so that we may see we are like the animals.' Ecc3

Ft exhibits other strong tribalist traits. Just like his Religionist buddy ryggy he has a strong affinity for separatist conservatives, who want nothing to do with anyone else but themselves.

The 2 of them would like nothing more than a Canaan to depopulate.

BTW your source apparently confuses the SA with the SS. The SS swore an oath to hitler, but it ends with 'bis in den Todt, so wahr mir Gott helfe.' IOW God was their F�Ľhrer. It said so on the army's belt buckles.

Nazis have out stylish little xian crosses to mothers who bore cannon fodder for the Reich.

Dec 15, 2014
including legislation which prohibits consenting adults from entering into legal and consensual agreements based on nothing other than who they sleep with,


When the homosexual's 'logic' is applied to polygamy, homosexuals get defensive and assert that their 'logic' won't apply to polygamy.
Are homosexuals polygamy bigots?

Dec 15, 2014
including legislation which prohibits consenting adults from entering into legal and consensual agreements based on nothing other than who they sleep with,


When the homosexual's 'logic' is applied to polygamy, homosexuals get defensive and assert that their 'logic' won't apply to polygamy.
Are homosexuals polygamy bigots?
So ryggy if you believe what the bible says about gays, do you also believe that insolent children and wayward women and apostates should be stoned? Are you waiting for slavery to be legalized maybe? Do you agree that it's ok to encourage self-castration per Matthew 19:12?

Or did you not pick that verse at the personal god buffet? Or did you not know it was there along with all the other vile stuff?

Dec 15, 2014
Quite the spirited "discussion" here, this morning.
Freethinking -
It's not that being homosexual makes a person a killer - it's the nurtured notion that homosexuality is an gross aberration and subsequently the guilt of being labeled as such that is the driver. Societal "norms" generate the self hate that creates these types of killers.
We're all female at the start...


Dec 15, 2014
When the homosexual's 'logic' is applied to polygamy, homosexuals get defensive and assert that their 'logic' won't apply to polygamy.
Are homosexuals polygamy bigots?


How many do you know that do this? I know quite a few and not a single one of them get judgmental about this particular issue. They usually say something "well it's not for me, but none of my business"....which is pretty much what they say about my heterosexuality and me about theirs.

In short I'm rejecting your complex question ryg....

http://en.wikiped...question

That being said I'm pretty sure there exists somewhere in this world a homosexual who'd be so uptight about someone else's sexuality that they might go as far as legislation against polygamy....no...wait...I'm actually not sure about that at all.

What I AM sure is the Bible says Jacob, David, Abraham, and Solomon were polygamists.. So polygamy is biblically sound. After all David was "A man after God's own heart"

Dec 15, 2014
Here's a simple solution to the "problem" -
in addition to their already present equipment, give all men a vagina and all women a penis.
No more "homosexuality"...
We won't be women OR men - just HUman....

Dec 15, 2014
In short I'm rejecting your complex question ryg....

Of course you do.

" time and again, advocates of same-sex marriage have pooh-poohed the warning that if marriage is redefined so that the sex of the spouses is irrelevant, it can be further redefined so that the number of spouses, or the family relationship of the spouses, is also irrelevant. "Many gay-marriage proponents oppose polygamy. Andrew Sullivan has always said society's rule should be: "We won't let you legally marry more than one person, but we encourage you to marry one."

But if the essence of marriage is a right to marry whomever you love, what reasonable grounds are left for saying no to polygamists like Kody Brown and his multiple wives? Or any other union of consenting adults?"
http://www.boston...ory.html

Dec 15, 2014
Why is it hate speech to show evidence that homosexuality is abnormal?
Why is it hate speech to present information that the homosexual lifestyle is extremely unhealthy?
Why is it hate speech to present the fact that homosexuals are significantly over represented as child molesters, murderers, and criminals of all sorts.
Why is it hate speech to show that homosexuals were intrinsic to the Nazi party?


Dec 15, 2014
There is no civil rights issue for homosexuals for marriage being defined as one man and one woman. Both who are unmarried and of a certain age.
A homosexual man can marry a hetero, or homosexual woman , or a heterosexual man can marry a homosexual or heterosexual woman.

I still have had not seen a response to my question as to why the state should be in the business of defining marriage at all.
Of course if the state did not recognize or define marriage, then homosexuals wouldn't have the legal club to force society to accept their lifestyle.

Dec 15, 2014
How many parents, when a child is born, wish that the child be a homosexual and marry someone of the same sex.

Dec 15, 2014
@ ryygeson2-Skippy, hooweei that is hard to spell I tell you. Where you come up with that one?

I got the serious question for you that I never understood from most religious-type-Skippys. Why do you care so much if the gay peoples get married? I mean how it change the way you and your wife feel for each other? It seems to me that your god would care more about how you live and not so much about how you going around telling other peoples how they should live.

What I mean, when you go to heaven, it's a one on one deal right? Just you and god. As long as you show up alone without any gay peoples, god will still take you right? If the gay peoples don't want to go heaven with you, why you take that personal?

Are you so perfect and ready for god and heaven, that you got some extra time to make sure all those other people get to be as perfected as you think you are?

Dec 15, 2014
How many parents, when a child is born, wish that the child be a homosexual and marry someone of the same sex.


How many parents have the choice? They got less choice about it than the child. You are one silly-Tea-Party-Skippy you. That's makes you the double couyon.

Dec 15, 2014
freethinking - well that name is inappropriate for a start as your writing reflects the outlook of a seriously repressed uptight individual.

I hope that your rants are just trolling and attention seeking and you don't honestly believe the drivel you write.

If you honestly believe your comments then I seriously hope that you have no influence in the lives of any children.

Dec 15, 2014
Let us not forget that king David was also an adulterer - with Bathsheba, the wife of a Hittite king. But David was 'reproved' so it was ok I guess.

A complex tale of intrigue, remorse, murder, public debauchery (which god apparently let slide), etc. God punished David by causing a civil war which killed many of his people.
http://en.wikiped...athsheba

God also killed many of the kings people when David had the temerity to take a census. This is akin to killing Job's entire family in order to win a bet.

Ryggy your god is a beast. In order to make people suffer he kills other people. 'Sins of the fathers' to the third and fourth gen of hapless innocents.

Dec 15, 2014
saying no to polygamists like Kody Brown and his multiple wives? Or any other union of consenting adults?"
Well quite obviously it's about POPULATION. It has always been about POPULATION. Your book gives explicit instructions in Ecclesiastes.

"3 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal...
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing"

-and most importantly, a Time for war and a Time for peace.

Leaders who could make these things happen at the proper Time could establish an enduring Empire.

Dec 15, 2014
Why do you care so much if the gay peoples get married?

Why do homosexuals care and want to force it upon society?

Still no response about why the govt should recognize and grant privilege to marriage.

Dec 15, 2014
How many parents, when a child is born, wish that the child be a homosexual and marry someone of the same sex.
I dunno maybe these parents?
http://en.wikiped...nal_life

-Naw, they probably wouldn't care. How many godders would disown their kids if they grew up to be atheists? Way too many I bet. For as jesus said, 'I come not to bring peace but a sword.' To destroy families, who would shun each other 'unto death'.

Because your god requires you to love him more than absolutely anything else, or you will not get into heaven. And he requires you to kill atheists whether they are kin or not.

I wonder if ryggy has shunned me by hitting the ignore button? Testing, is this thing on tap tap? Maybe it's because I ask too many questions that he is unable to answer.

Dec 15, 2014
Why do you care so much if the gay peoples get married?

Why do homosexuals care and want to force it upon society?


They aren't forcing anything on society. They probably won't even invite you to the wedding or reception. Skippy you could pretend that they aren't even there if you wouldn't work so hard to be worrying about they are doing.

Still no response about why the govt should recognize and grant privilege to marriage.


I don't know why so that is a silly question because you don't know either. But since they do, they got to do it fairly for everybody unless you can come up with a good reason they shouldn't do it fairly.

Ryggeson-Skippy don't like it is not a good enough reason, because if he would mind his own sins and let other peoples mind theirs, the world would be a better place.

Dec 15, 2014
The way godders like ryggy and ft maintain their faith
http://youtu.be/3O1_3zBUKM8
They aren't forcing anything on society. They probably won't even invite you to the wedding or reception. Skippy you could pretend that they aren't even there if you wouldn't work so hard to be worrying about they are doing
I dunno it does bother me when they follow me into the shower room at the gym.

Dec 15, 2014
Homosexual people tend to experience more mental health problems than heterosexual people, research indicates.

A team looked at rates of mental disorder among 7,403 adults living in the UK, whose details were obtained from the Adult Psychiatric Morbidity Survey 2007. Rates of depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, phobia, self-harm, suicidal thoughts, and alcohol and drug dependence were significantly higher in homosexual respondents.

Four percent had a depressive episode in the last week, compared to two percent of heterosexual people. The rate of alcohol dependence was ten percent versus five percent, and for self-harming it was nine percent versus five percent.

The proportion of homosexual people who described themselves as being fairly or very happy was 30 percent, versus 40 percent for heterosexual people.

Yup, Gay and Happy do not go together it seems.

Dec 15, 2014
I do agree with ryg on one point - why is the state involved in defining the relationship an individual can hold with another or other individuals...? The state should only be involved in accepting it, not defining it...

Dec 15, 2014
Otto, Homosexuals WILL force (or destroy) photographers, florists, and others attend their wedding especially if they are against Homosexual marriage.

Dec 15, 2014
I do agree with ryg on one point - why is the state involved in defining the relationship an individual can hold with another or other individuals...? The state should only be involved in accepting it, not defining it...

(prob'ly get one'd a lot for that one)...

Dec 15, 2014
I do agree with ryg on one point - why is the state involved in defining the relationship an individual can hold with another or other individuals...? The state should only be involved in accepting it, not defining it...


Somehow I get the feeling that he wants to define it in a way that he wants and making sure everybody else accepts it that way and only that way.

Dec 15, 2014
They aren't forcing anything on society.

Yes, they are.
When people are punished by the the state and when a court over rules voters, they are using FORCE.
The people of Massachusetts wanted to have popular vote on marriage. The 'liberal' legislature denied the will of the people.
Homosexual marriage in MA was NEVER voted in by the people or even by the legislature. It was imposed by a biased state court.

Dec 15, 2014
I don't know why so that is a silly question because you don't know either.

I know why the state chooses to recognize and grant privilege to marriage.
The supporters of homosexual marriage don't want to admit to the reason because it does not apply to them.
But 'liberals' have been doing their best to destroy the family and marriage for generations. They have succeed in the black community and we see the results when the state becomes the parent.
In 'liberal' Mass., the Dept. of Children and Family allows children under their supervision to be murdered and they kidnap children from their parents. And the 'liberal' governor does nothing.

Dec 15, 2014
They aren't forcing anything on society.

Yes, they are.
When people are punished by the the state and when a court over rules voters, they are using FORCE.


That's what all the white peoples were saying about the courts, the schools and businesses too. It didn't seem to hold any legal water non.

Homosexual marriage in MA was NEVER voted in by the people or even by the legislature. It was imposed by a biased state court.


The peoples here in Lousiana never voted to let black peoples marry white people either. The peoples in Mississippi never voted to let black kids go to white only schools. And I'm pretty darned sure that the peoples in Alabama voted to let black peoples ride on the front of the bus.

So what's your point? My point is that you have to treat everybody the same under the laws and if you are doing a public business you have to do business with all the public, not just the parts of the public you like.

Dec 15, 2014
I know why the state chooses to recognize and grant privilege to marriage.
The supporters of homosexual marriage don't want to admit to the reason because it does not apply to them.
But 'liberals' have been doing their best to destroy the family and marriage for generations. They have succeed in the black community and we see the results when the state becomes the parent.
In 'liberal' Mass., the Dept. of Children and Family allows children under their supervision to be murdered and they kidnap children from their parents. And the 'liberal' governor does nothing.


There is the word for that type of postum. I can't think of it right now, it means to exaggerate your words so much that they are over the top and silly. It's one of those mathematical words. Let me get back to you on that.

Dec 15, 2014
But if the essence of marriage is a right to marry whomever you love, what reasonable grounds are left for saying no to polygamists like Kody Brown and his multiple wives? Or any other union of consenting adults?"


What does that have to do with you Ryg? You're asking me a question, but I'm not the one wanting to be the marriage police here...AM I? You posed your question in the framework of a logical fallacy, I pointed that out to you. You continue to ignore it over and over again. I'm willing to be present here and hang with you through this, but YOU are the one with the problem here...let's be clear. You seem to thing that if YOU have a personal problem with something then so should everyone else on the planet, INCLUDING people you are bigoted against.

Now, are you saying something should be illegal that Yahweh said is just fine? What is your issue? As a Libertarian, how does this break legs or pick pockets?

Dec 15, 2014
@ Reggyson-Skippy. I found the word. Actually it was the little-Ira-Skippy who found him. Hyperbole, that's what that stuffs you wrote is.

Anyhoo, why you not spend your days and nights writing the MA papers and forums if what they are doing is so bad? I don't think there are many peoples here that are from MA, and the ones who are probably don't think the stuff you get so worked up over is so much a very big deal.

How many converts you make here? How many did you think you make? So, if you haven't made any, and didn't really think you would make any, why you waste your time? I suspect it is for no other reason except to try bug peoples as much you seem to be bugged. Misery love the company, eh Cher? But it doesn't seem to be working, you get more bugged, and peoples have fun watching you get more bugged. You are not too much smart Skippy.

Dec 15, 2014

Yup, Gay and Happy do not go together it seems.


Does it surprise you when they live in a society where IGNORANT people equate them to Nazis?

So why do you care anyway. As far as your concerned one would think that this would make you happy. Are you just patting yourself on the back that you can make people miserable, or that people you don't agree with are miserable?

What do you think that tells people about YOU?

yep
Dec 16, 2014
Homosexuality in hundreds of species is evidence of it being a natural behavior existing to prevent overpopulation and overuse of resources insuring the future progression of the species. To ascribe it morality is nescient and a distraction to the looting of our Republic and our children's future. Billions missing from the pentagon every few years, the middle class relegated to serfs. Americans make a pittance while Wall street and the banks keep gobbling independents, streamlining profits with off shoring and automation. The destruction of the family is in the hands of both political parties that have sold our future to the banks and their investment companies for personal profit. The chemical/military/agriculture/prison/industrial complex is a fat and happy cow with most people living day to day unable to think beyond their next paycheck, and what distractions the media tells them are important.

Dec 16, 2014
The state should only be involved in accepting it, not defining it
@WGyre
the state defines laws
the law must be defined so that marriage can be used for all people, not just select people involved within a certain set of religious practices, race, belief, etc...

Think of it like this:
marriage (by law) is a contractual obligation between you and another person
period

there should be no "qualifiers" that designate that the person has to be same/different sex, same/different race, same/different religion

the legal definition is prejudiced and thus needs practical refining so that there is no prejudice within the legal system
PERIOD

The religious org's are fighting the "moral" definition based upon their particular religion, not upon any equality
In matter of fact, religions are ABOUT segregation and prejudice, and are formed specifically to separate those who believe

religion is inequality

LAW should be about equality
as it is applied to everyone equally

Dec 16, 2014
How many converts you make here?

I don't care.
It is great fun to point out the irrationality of 'liberals'. Especially 'liberals' who believe themselves to be sooo intelligent.
One great example for today. 'Liberals' in Boston are protesting the police while the police are earning overtime to keep the peace. Protests are economically benefiting the police.
you have to treat everybody the same under the laws

Marriage between one man and one woman IS treating everybody the same under the law.

Dec 16, 2014
It is great fun to point out the irrationality of 'liberals'. Especially 'liberals' who believe themselves to be sooo intelligent.


And you the libertarian who insists the government prevent consenting adults from entering into legal contracts that hurt absolutely no one.

Is it REALLY great fun to point out your irrationality and hypocrisy? No it isn't, I wish that you could see how hateful and hurtful you and people like you have been to other human beings over this issue. There's NOTHING fun about it at all.

Marriage between one man and one woman IS treating everybody the same under the law.


What if someone told you that you, as a competent adult, couldn't purchase a house UNLESS you were married? Doesn't matter how they rationalized it...they could say they wanted the loans saved for people who were having families. What if someone said that everyone was being treated the same under the law...just go get married if you want to legally buy a house.

Dec 16, 2014
Homosexual people tend to experience more mental health problems than heterosexual people, research indicates.

Not surprising. If you're part of a group that is being heavily persecuted against, wouldn't you expect to be more prone to mental health problems?

Yup, Gay and Happy do not go together it seems.

I dunno. Ask my neighbors. They seem quite happy (and make a cute couple). But that is probably because they aren't surrounded by paranoid bible-thumpers.

Dec 16, 2014
Marriage between one man and one woman IS treating everybody the same under the law.


So was marriage between one white man and one white woman. One Native American man and one Native American woman. You don't make a point with your silliness.

The only thing you say that makes any sense is the part about "It is great fun to point out the irrationality of 'liberals'." And the only reason that makes the sense is because we already know that. And because you are so stupid that you don't realize you are making the point for those peoples who you disagree with.

Dec 16, 2014
Cap'n,
The law should be concerned with qualifying the contract, not the contractors.

Dec 16, 2014
there should be no "qualifiers" that designate that the person has to be same/different sex, same/different race, same/different religion

The law should be concerned with qualifying the contract, not the contractors.

Probably should qualify that both have to be human. Otherwise you get people marrying inanimate objects and the like. While that may be OK from a moral standpoint it is probably a nightmare from the legal standpoint (can inanimate objects inherit? etc. )

In the end I'd much rather have marriage and civil unions as separate things. You can marry in a church (if you want to) but that has should have no legally binding character (neither obligations nor privileges). On the other hand you should have a civil union which should entail legal obligations/privileges.

Dec 16, 2014
Marriage is going away in western societies anyway. That might scare people who need to feel like they have a "lock" or "hold" on another human being...especially if they are psychologically needy in that respect. In the end it will be a good thing when the whole idea goes in the cultural dustbin of history...

That isn't a fact of course, just a personal opinion ;)

http://www.scienc...1335.htm

Dec 16, 2014
And you the libertarian who insists the government prevent consenting adults from entering into legal contracts that hurt absolutely no one.

He isn't a libertarian.
He is a theocrat.
A true libertarian would never allow the government to regulate marriage.

Dec 16, 2014
Marriage is going away in western societies anyway. That might scare people who need to feel like they have a "lock" or "hold" on another human being.

There are advantages in having civil unions. Especially when you think about the rights and safety features for any born or adopted children.
Then there are the obligations of the parents for one another in the event of a breakup.
When people have been accumulating wealth in a way where one part sacrificed by going for a stay-at-home role while the other could focus on a career then it's important to have some sort of balancing mechanism if the model comes to an end.

In the end it will be a good thing when the whole idea goes in the cultural dustbin of history...

Only if we ever go towards a model of raising kids by community (as in some 'primitive' cultures) or we do away with the issue of having children at all (through some radical transformation in terms of technology or immortality)

Dec 16, 2014
There are advantages in having civil unions.


I agree to a point. It just seems soooo rare that people eventually don't start taking each other for granted and then get "lazy" with respect to...well respecting each other. I don't worry so much about how the rights of the children will get sorted out. I think some stability is preferable, but that's just my cultural bias if I'm being honest. It's MUCH worse for kids to endure an unhappy union rather than the adults split IMO.

Only if we ever go towards a model of raising kids by community (as in some 'primitive' cultures) or we do away with the issue of having children at all (through some radical transformation in terms of technology or immortality)


I like this idea in theory, but what I see is that when organizations get "big" (that includes private and public ones) there creeps in an inevitable indifference towards other people. Human beings do very well in groups of 50.(cont)

Dec 16, 2014
(cont) any more than this and you start needing a cultural framework because it's impossible for humans to intimately know more than about 50 other people and honestly be emotionally invested in the relationship. I'm not sure that will ever work well with children who, I believe, absolutely need those deep emotional roots in order to become well centered adults themselves.

I don't think it matters what mix of genders raises them, though it would seem preferable to have a good emotional connection with both a male and a female growing up (though hardly necessary). I would be concerned with, say, something the size of a municipality raising a child. Institutions don't have a good track record there IMVHO.

Dec 16, 2014
Marriage is going away in western societies anyway

Because the govt is taking over control of society.
Individuals create societies and societies create a state.
The best a state can do is not destroy the society and the individual. But that is what the 'liberal'/socialists are doing.

When the fascist state forces a business to serve customers they don't want to serve, for any reason, the state owns the business.
The only solution is to do what Ayn Rand recommended, shrug. Individuals need to stop opening a business and if you do own a business, liquidate and find Galt's Gulch.

Dec 16, 2014
civil union which should entail legal obligations/privileges.

Why should the state care about protecting women and children?

I don't worry so much about how the rights of the children will get sorted out.

What a surprise.

Dec 16, 2014
Marriage is going away in western societies anyway

Because the govt is taking over control of society.
Individuals create societies and societies create a state.
The best a state can do is not destroy the society and the individual. But that is what the 'liberal'/socialists are doing.

When the fascist state forces a business to serve customers they don't want to serve, for any reason, the state owns the business.
The only solution is to do what Ayn Rand recommended, shrug. Individuals need to stop opening a business and if you do own a business, liquidate and find Galt's Gulch.


You bump your head this morning Cher? That is about the stupidest set of bumper stickers as I never did see.

Dec 16, 2014
Because the govt is taking over control of society.


I might agree that government is far too large in the US at the moment, but a government can NEVER control a society. Ask government how prohibition worked for them. How's that war on drugs going? Control is an illusion on an individual, societal, state...heck on EVERY level with human beings. You can influence, you can't control.

The best a state can do is not destroy the society and the individual. But that is what the 'liberal'/socialists are doing.


What "they" are doing is the EXACT same thing "you" are doing and that's trying to influence culture in a way you like. I must admit they're allowing for more social freedom. No one is "destroying" anything...gawd the drama and histrionics displayed here is gobsmacking sometimes.

Open any history book and read it, this isn't new bud. "This has all happened before, and it will all happen again".

...liquidate and find Galt's Gulch.


Mmmmmkay....

Dec 16, 2014
""It's pretty simple," Carlson began. "I mean, if you want to have a gay wedding, fine, go ahead. If I don't want to bake you a cake for your gay wedding, that's OK too. Or should be. That's called tolerance. But when you try and force me to bake a cake for your gay wedding and threaten me with prison if I don't, that's called fascism." Carlson then went on to argue that no gay people he knows want to see cake refuseniks go to jail, anyway, and asked, "So who are we protecting here?""
http://www.salon....fascism/

Now why would anyone want to buy a cake, and eat it, from someone who was FORCED to make it?
I'm sure any quality baker could make wedding cake that was tasted terrible if he chose to.
That will need to be the answer to the 'liberal', homosexual fascists who demand services.

Free markets work because the seller must persuade customers to buy their stuff.

Dec 16, 2014
No one is "destroying" anything.


" After the war on poverty in the 60s, we began to see the unraveling of the entire black community because the family collapsed. During the 60s, the black family was pretty healthy. Seventy-eight percent of husbands were in their homes with their wives raising their children. But after this lure to government that said "you don't have to work, you don't have to save, you don't have to get married," over time marriage stopped occurring to where now 7 out of 10 black children are born outside of marriage and what happens when you don't have that intact family is your values change. So your culture changes. So your community changes."
http://www.urbanc...sp?id=76

Blacks and Hispanics in Calf. voted to oppose homosexual marriage.

Dec 16, 2014
Blacks and Hispanics in Calf. voted to oppose homosexual marriage.


How unfortunate for them we live in a Republic which at least pays lip service to the rule of law. That means the mob doesn't get to legalize bigotry here (by default anyway). All the bigots will actually be forced to deal with their fears and not impose them on other people for the sake of their own fragile ego.

Them's the brakes...


Dec 16, 2014
Now why would anyone want to buy a cake, and eat it, from someone who was FORCED to make it?


Yeah, I have to admit I don't get that one either. I'd sooner piss on a cake made by a bigoted child than actually give him money to make it.

Dec 16, 2014
Free markets work because the seller must persuade customers to buy their stuff.

Free markets work when the government protect property rights. That includes being protected from unfair taxes and tariffs. The British tried economic warfare leading to a certain Tea Party and the creation of a free country. The sale of products is economics, while the sale of moral judgement is the realm of religion.

Dec 16, 2014
Now why would anyone want to buy a cake, and eat it, from someone who was FORCED to make it?


So Ryggesogn - you do not believe the government should be forcing this baker to bake a cake for gay people. What about black people. Do you believe this baker should be allowed to say "I refuse to make cakes for black people?"

What about the doctor who refuses to treat religious people. Their prayers to their god or gods should suffice to cure them. However, refusing to provide services does equate to a tax on people due to their need to obtain the same services from others at increased prices. This goes against the free market and it is the governments responsibility to protect against such attacks.

Dec 16, 2014
Now why would anyone want to buy a cake, and eat it, from someone who was FORCED to make it?


So Ryggesogn - you do not believe the government should be forcing this baker to bake a cake for gay people. What about black people. Do you believe this baker should be allowed to say "I refuse to make cakes for black people?"

Yes.
Why would anyone want to eat a cake someone was forced to make for them?
A slave baker could be executed if he did not satisfy his master.
A free baker would not earn a repeat customer if he did not satisfy his customer.
A state slave 'free' baker could be sued out of business if he refuses but risks little if he bakes a cake that dissatisfies the customer he did not want to satisfy in the first place.
Why would potential customer want to use the state's club to force a baker to bake a cake for him, except for spite and punishment?

Dec 16, 2014
A black mob destroyed a black cake baker's shop in Missouri.
People from all over provided funds for her to rebuild. Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and many other promoted the site to help her rebuild her bake shop destroyed by her black neighbors.

Dec 16, 2014
I am a little puzzled that someone would not want to "bake a cake" (doing what you love, supposedly) for a paying customer...
money is money, business is business...

Dec 16, 2014
A slave baker could be executed if he did not satisfy his master.
A free baker would not earn a repeat customer if he did not satisfy his customer.
A state slave 'free' baker could be sued out of business if he refuses but risks little if he bakes a cake that dissatisfies the customer he did not want to satisfy in the first place.
Why would potential customer want to use the state's club to force a baker to bake a cake for him, except for spite and punishment?

Who is being forced to bake cakes? Nobody is being forced to provide a service. They choose to provide a service in a country that has laws that protect their rights. Those rights cannot be used to infringe upon the rights of others. Taxing others unfairly based on moral objections infringes on those rights. If you disagree with these rights, you are free to take your business to another country, and will no longer have the same protection provided.

Dec 16, 2014

Who is being forced to bake cakes? Nobody is being forced to provide a service. They choose to provide a service in a country that has laws that protect their rights. Those rights cannot be used to infringe upon the rights of others. Taxing others unfairly based on moral objections infringes on those rights. If you disagree with these rights, you are free to take your business to another country, and will no longer have the same protection provided.


Here's where I play devils advocate a bit...not because I AGREE with the premise, but because I feel it's important to understand the weaknesses of our positions as well as the strengths.

Now, a simple question, where did the right to enforce the laws we're talking about come from?

You can't say the government, because the government giving the government rights is circular reasoning....you have to do better than that to be consistent.

Dec 16, 2014
Here's where I play devils advocate a bit...not because I AGREE with the premise, but because I feel it's important to understand the weaknesses of our positions as well as the strengths.

Now, a simple question, where did the right to enforce the laws we're talking about come from?

You can't say the government, because the government giving the government rights is circular reasoning....you have to do better than that to be consistent.

Even animals have been proven to have a sense of fairness. However, more recently, the Declaration of the Rights of man and the Citizen would be a good start of the modern belief that Men are born free and remain free and equal in rights. This idea is the basis of many democracies. Ultimately this idea was created by citizens who later became the government.

Dec 16, 2014
Even animals have been proven to have a sense of fairness. However, more recently, the Declaration of the Rights of man and the Citizen would be a good start of the modern belief that Men are born free and remain free and equal in rights. This idea is the basis of many democracies. Ultimately this idea was created by citizens who later became the government.


Indeed, and I agree...however this is insufficient.

To wit;

This idea is the basis of many democracies. Ultimately this idea was created by citizens who later became the government.


That's using your premise to arrive at your conclusion....

Moreover, since we all know some people define "free" as the freedom to refuse to bake the cake and some of us define freedom as the right to obtain the cake it becomes even more problematic.......

Dec 16, 2014
freedom as the right to obtain the cake


Who is being denied the opportunity to buy a cake?

No one.

But homosexual fascists want to deny people the right to refuse to bake them a cake.

One way to identify a legitimate right, it must not infringe upon the rights of anyone else.

Fascist coercion forcing a business to serve someone the 'owner' doesn't want to serve is violates the property rights of the owner.

IF the US govt hadn't used its fascist power to force banks to make bad loans to minorities, (Community Reinvestment Act), it is unlikely the mortgage backed securities would never have been created and the resulting worldwide financial collapse would not have occurred.

So, 'liberals', be very careful about what you want to be a 'right'.