Biologists identify pot gardens as salmon threat

Biologists identify pot gardens as salmon threat
This 2013 photo provided by the California Department of Fish and Wildlife shows a department environmental scientist holding a dead juvenile Coho salmon found in Little Larabee Creek in Humboldt County, Calif. Federal biologists have identified the free-wheeling marijuana industry in the Emerald Triangle of Northern California and Southern Oregon as a key threat to salmon in danger of extinction. The final recovery plan for threatened coho salmon in the region was published Tuesday, Sept. 30, 2014 in the Federal Register. It calls for getting a better handle on how much water pot growers illegally withdraw from creeks where young fish struggle to survive, and minimizing it. (AP Photo/California Department of Fish and Wildlife)

Federal biologists say the marijuana industry in the Emerald Triangle of Northern California and southern Oregon is a key threat to salmon in danger of extinction.

The NOAA Fisheries Service announced Tuesday that it's issuing the final recovery plan for threatened coho salmon in the region.

It calls for getting a better handle on the amount of water pot growers illegally withdraw from creeks where young fish struggle to survive, and then minimizing it. Pot in the region is grown legally for medical purposes and illegally for the black market.

Other threats from the unregulated industry include clear-cutting forests to create pot plantations, building roads that send sediment into salmon streams, and spreading fertilizer and pesticides that poison the water.

The spotlight on grew out of a California study estimating how much water growers suck out of salmon streams.


Explore further

Study finds medical pot farms draining streams dry

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Citation: Biologists identify pot gardens as salmon threat (2014, September 30) retrieved 18 October 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2014-09-biologists-pot-gardens-salmon-threat.html
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Sep 30, 2014
I don't understand why responsible marijuana users can't accept there are negative affects on the environment when cultivation is done irresponsibly.

Sep 30, 2014
I don't understand why responsible marijuana users can't accept there are negative affects on the environment when cultivation is done irresponsibly.


Isn't 'responsible marijuana users' an oxymoron?

Sep 30, 2014
"Detective Chandler Baird of the Humboldt County Sheriff showed KPIX 5 how growers are clear-cutting 100 year old redwoods, leveling hills and sucking dry rivers that are already stricken by drought. Not to mention the violence."
http://sanfrancis...en-rush/
How many 'responsible' pot smokers care?

Sep 30, 2014
I don't understand why responsible marijuana users can't accept there are negative affects on the environment when cultivation is done irresponsibly.


Because it's not the users doing the growing. Like users of anything, they get their supply from wherever they can find it.

The problem is that prohibition forces growers out of a traditional Greenhouse or garden setting "into the wilds" to fill demand. Where there is demand, there will always be a supplier. And often times that supplier is a Latin America/other-illegal immigrant/criminal syndicate member who doesn't give two teepees for the environment they aren't legally allowed in anyway.

If you want to protect nature, protect watersheds, and all these other things people blame on Pot use, just legalize it. There's no way anyone will tramp 10 miles into the bush with a thousand pounds of equipment to set up elaborate nature-killing-grow when anyone can just pop a few seeds in a flower pot in their spare bedroom without fear.

Sep 30, 2014
Isn't 'responsible marijuana users' an oxymoron?


So you're saying users of Alcohol, tobacco, caffeinated energy drinks, pain pills, video games, the internet, religion, etc are all responsible right? I'm sure marijuana has that certain special something that makes it the devil, when every other substance that does substantially more harm is off the hook. I bet ISIS was caused by pot use, we'll see that on Fox News next week.

Sep 30, 2014
There are pesticides that control spider mites that are extremely toxic to fish. Just a tiny bit of runoff can kill many fish. It is time for the Fish and WIldlife Serice to team up with CAMP to identify and punish these pseudo-farmers.

Sep 30, 2014
So you're saying users of Alcohol, tobacco, caffeinated energy drinks, pain pills, video games, the internet, religion, etc are all responsible right?


Are they killing the salmon and destroying the redwood forests?

It's quite amusing how the libertine 'liberals' are destroying the environment for their high.

I wouldn't legalize any drug. I would decriminalize. It should NOT be taxed and any act while under the influence must be vigorously prosecuted.
Homeless flocking to CO for pot should NOT receive any welfare from any govt agency. Maybe potheads could start a mutual aid society to support those who want to lay about and smoke pot all day.

Sep 30, 2014
Any connection to being homeless and using pot?

"Officials at some Denver homeless shelters say the legalization of marijuana has contributed to an increase in the number of younger people living on the city's streets.

One organization dealing with the increase is Urban Peak, which provides food, shelter and other services to homeless people aged 15 to 24 in Denver and Colorado Springs.

'Of the new kids we're seeing, the majority are saying they're here because of the weed,' deputy director Kendall Rames told The Denver Post. 'They're traveling through. It is very unfortunate.'"
http://www.dailym...ana.html

Sep 30, 2014
WOW!!! Marywonnie is the devil's flower!! HA HA HA Such IGNORANCE on this board!

Sep 30, 2014
I'm not against legalizing recreational use of marijuana. But I was struck by all the knee jerk down votes on a story about environmental damage done by it's cultivation.

Got a beef with present laws, fine, so do I, but down voting an article because "marijuana " and "damage" appear in the same story is denying that a very real problem doesn't exsist.

Sep 30, 2014
down voting an article because "marijuana " and "damage" appear in the same story is denying that a very real problem doesn't exsist.


Shows the priorities of the 'liberal' enviros:
1. Getting high
2. Trees....

Sep 30, 2014
Shows the priorities of the 'liberal' enviros:
1. Getting high
2. Trees....

Conservative objectives: Give the tobacco companies taxpayer paid subsidies as they employ children as young as 7 in the tobacco fields.

Making hot rod sounds

NOM
Sep 30, 2014
...Such IGNORANCE on this board!
Sick around, there's plenty where that came from.

Sep 30, 2014


down voting an article because "marijuana " and "damage" appear in the same story is denying that a very real problem doesn't exsist.


Shows the priorities of the 'liberal' enviros:
1. Getting high
2. Trees....


So what's your priority? Giving tax breaks to for profit prison corporations who build prisons and lobby for stronger drug laws just so they can make more money by locking more people up?

By the way, the people who do things like steal water, grow on land they don't own, and cause environmental damage are almost universally reviled by pot users. The term used for these people are "guerrilla growers" and most pot smokers agree they should be jailed for their actions against the environment and private property. However, no one should ever be locked up for responsibly cultivating and using this plant, even for recreational purposes.

Sep 30, 2014
"most pot smokers agree they should be jailed for their actions against the environment and private property."

I've got to take exception about your use of "most". I'm sure some fraction have some concerns but "most" is a stretch considering the total number of marijuana users in the country.

Oct 01, 2014
"ryggesogn2" is obviously just another brainwashed, lying propagandist.

Oct 01, 2014
By the way, the people who do things like steal water, grow on land they don't own, and cause environmental damage are almost universally reviled by pot users.


How many potheads demand certified fair trade organic pot?

Oct 01, 2014
It's quite amusing how the libertine 'liberals' are destroying the environment for their high. -soggyring2
You would be surprised by how many of your conservative friends are closet smokers, you ignorant douchebag.

Oct 01, 2014
I wonder how many pot heads demand organic, non-GMO food yet have no idea where the pot is from or how its grown?

Oct 01, 2014
Hmm... I wonder how much pot went up in smoke during the making of this story.

Oct 01, 2014
"most pot smokers agree they should be jailed for their actions against the environment and private property."

I've got to take exception about your use of "most". I'm sure some fraction have some concerns but "most" is a stretch considering the total number of marijuana users in the country.


Yeah, and I'm sure you care loads about how the production of your Andriod/iPhone is literally stripping the hillsides of china and toxifying villagers so that for 3 generations they are likely to be born with cancer. Admit it, you don't give two flying fuchsias about the environment anyway, you just have an axe to grind against people doing things to themselves on their own time.

Oct 01, 2014
By the way, the people who do things like steal water, grow on land they don't own, and cause environmental damage are almost universally reviled by pot users.


How many potheads demand certified fair trade organic pot?


Most of them would, if they could get it. That kind of Forest Weed is even more universally reviled because it's usually the worst quality imaginable. Just imagine the difference between moonshine and professionally processed Rum or Vodka. Do you regularly buy the stuff that could make you go blind? Hey, it's cheaper though, and people who drink alcohol don't have any expectations of quality or standards or anything right?

Oct 01, 2014
Most of them would, if they could get it

Again, now we know the priority for 'recreational' drug users, the drug.


Oct 01, 2014
Any connection to being homeless and using pot?

"Officials at some Denver homeless shelters say the legalization of marijuana has contributed to an increase in the number of younger people living on the city's streets.

One organization dealing with the increase is Urban Peak, which provides food, shelter and other services to homeless people aged 15 to 24 in Denver and Colorado Springs.

'Of the new kids we're seeing, the majority are saying they're here because of the weed,' deputy director Kendall Rames told The Denver Post. 'They're traveling through. It is very unfortunate.'"
http://www.dailym...ana.html


Correlation =/= Causation. Also, because people are camping and visiting, doesn't mean they are homeless. Or of they are homeless, Weed didn't make them any more homeless than they were already. They just want a nicer place to live. Is that a crime?

Oct 01, 2014
Weed didn't make them any more homeless than they were already.

How do you know?
Drug abuse is common among homeless.

Oct 01, 2014
@SciTechdude

"you just have an axe to grind against people doing things to themselves on their own time."

The only ax I have to grind is against the fanatic marijuana advocates who refuse to acknowledge
there can be negative consequences from marijuana use. I've voted for medical marijuana use and depending on how the law for recreational use is structured I'm prepared to vote yes when that's on the ballot.

Your attitude isn't going to win any support from people sitting on the fence, voters who could be crucial in legalizing recreational use.


Oct 01, 2014
Hmm... I wonder how much pot went up in smoke during the making of this story.


I'd bet you're still wondering where you are and how you got there.

You sure are stupid!

Do better ignoracle!

Oct 01, 2014
Weed didn't make them any more homeless than they were already.

How do you know?
Drug abuse is common among homeless.


Especially alcohol abuse. Do you really think the production of wine, beer and liquor is environmentally inert?

They all come from farms of one type or another and all cause loss of wildlife, water shortages and chemical run off.

Do you have any concept of how many lives have been utterly destroyed by alcohol?

It's interesting to discover you're not only on Big Oil's payroll but also that of the alcohol lobby.

You really are a sad, pitiful, and disgusting excuse for a human being.

Oct 01, 2014
@ryggysoggypants

Have you ever considered how many starving people could be fed either directly with food converted to alcoholic beverages or by switching those crops to other food sources?

Many people are crying and complaining about corn being turned into ethanol when it could be used as food but how much arable land is committed to the production of booze?

How much land is committed to the production of hops which merely add flavor to beer?

What are the environmental and social costs of such production for a product that is not really necessary for our survival?

But you don't really care do you? All that matters to you is that you get a few bucks for selling out your species.

F you Ryggysoggypants!

@Vietvet

Your concerns are duly noted but have you considered the issues I mentioned above?

That is why the article got a 1 star vote from me. The damage from illicit MJ production (while concerning) is a drop in the bucket compared to everything else going on.

Oct 01, 2014
"That is why the article got a 1 star vote from me. The damage from illicit MJ production (while concerning) is a drop in the bucket compared to everything else going on."

It's not a drop in the bucket for the salmon.


Oct 01, 2014
Alcohol for fuel is a wet dream of the 'liberal' AGWites.

The intersection of the set of 'liberal' enviros and pot heads is likely quite large.
All this invective is demonstrating my theory that pot heads are more worried about pot than the environment.

Oct 01, 2014
"Your concerns are duly noted but have you considered the issues I mentioned above?"

My concern is that legalizing marijuana would overall be a positive thing, but nothing happens without some negative consequences. To think otherwise is unrealistic.

Washington and Colorado are running a great experiment and I hope it works but problems are to be expected.


Oct 02, 2014
Why limit to only marijuana?
Why not abolish all laws regarding drugs? Put the DEA out of business.
This would end much funding to Afghan Taliban, Mexican cartels, and ...many police departments.
There would likely be many drug deaths and there would likely be much social unrest.
But if the state refuses to subsidize addiction with welfare, evolution will take its course.

Oct 02, 2014
"That is why the article got a 1 star vote from me. The damage from illicit MJ production (while concerning) is a drop in the bucket compared to everything else going on."

It's not a drop in the bucket for the salmon.



That is true! But I doubt that is the biggest problem for them. These issues would not be occurring if not for the current legal paradigm.

MJ could be grown in more suitable locations if not for the legal issues and stigma.

Lets not forget that farms of all sorts in California are drawing water from rivers at the expense of wildlife and at a scale that dwarfs these clandestine MJ operations.

The evidence is quickly mounting that there are too many people are drawing water resources in California whether they be farmers, corporations or residents. The situation is clearly not sustainable yet the population boom continues.

The study has "Alcohol Lobby" written all over it and it is not the first and certainly not the last.

Oct 02, 2014
"Your concerns are duly noted but have you considered the issues I mentioned above?"

My concern is that legalizing marijuana would overall be a positive thing, but nothing happens without some negative consequences. To think otherwise is unrealistic.

Washington and Colorado are running a great experiment and I hope it works but problems are to be expected.



Again, you are correct.

Yet we have accepted the problems with alcohol as an inextricable fact of life. While the single greatest danger of MJ continues to be getting caught possessing it and the legal and financial ramifications that ensue. Less so in CO and WA now however!

Oct 02, 2014
I will add that if ANYONE is drawing water from a stream or river for ANY reason at a rate that will kill salmon or any other wildlife they should be stopped immediately unless they are firefighters taking water to combat a dangerous fire.

And even in that circumstance some restraint and consideration should be employed.

Oct 02, 2014
Rygg calls it "pot" broadcasting his ignorance of Cannabis and its forms and constituents.

Those who speak from ignorance have nothing to say.

Oct 02, 2014
"A Nevada wind farm has killed triple the number of bats allowed under an agreement with federal wildlife officials, yet the federal government has imposed no significant penalties."
http://humanevent...problem/

single greatest danger of MJ continues to be getting caught


"Emergency room physician and toxicology expert George "Sam" Wang of Children's Hospital Denver says his emergency room is treating one to two kids a month for accidental marijuana ingestion, mostly in the form of edibles such as brownies or candies."
http://www.usatod...7154651/

"the Denver man who, hours after buying a package of marijuana-infused Karma Kandy from one of Colorado's new recreational marijuana shops, began raving about the end of the world and then pulled a handgun from the family safe and killed his wife, "
http://www.nytime...ado-sees

Oct 02, 2014
single greatest danger of MJ continues to be getting caught


"In March, the state logged what appeared to be its first death directly tied to legal recreational marijuana when a 19-year-old African exchange student, Levy Thamba Pongi, plunged to his death in Denver. He and three other students had driven from their college in Wyoming to sample Colorado's newly legal wares. Mr. Pongi ate marijuana-infused cookies, began acting wildly and leapt from a hotel balcony, officials said; the medical examiner's office said marijuana intoxication had made a "significant" contribution to the accident."
http://www.nytime...igh.html


Oct 03, 2014
single greatest danger of MJ continues to be getting caught


"In March, the state logged what appeared to be its first death directly tied to legal recreational marijuana when a 19-year-old African exchange student, Levy Thamba Pongi, plunged to his death in Denver. He and three other students had driven from their college in Wyoming to sample Colorado's newly legal wares. Mr. Pongi ate marijuana-infused cookies, began acting wildly and leapt from a hotel balcony, officials said; the medical examiner's office said marijuana intoxication had made a "significant" contribution to the accident."
http://www.nytime...igh.html



See what happens when corporations get involved?

Everything goes to "pot"

All your examples are from people consuming "products". IOW modified and adulterated.

Give me an example of a bad reaction to someone who used MJ as intended. i.e. smoked

Oct 03, 2014
Unintended side effects and negative reactions are ubiquitous. My girlfriend has a bad reaction to strawberries and pineapple.

Should they also be illegal?

Many other people have bad and often fatal reactions to alcohol and it is certainly toxic to children in certain amounts. While still others end up in violent, depressive, or suicidal states.

Millions of people have died from alcohol. The same can not be said for MJ no matter how many news clippings you find.

By your logic it should also be illegal.

How many have died from Viagra?

Oct 03, 2014
Unintended side effects and negative reactions are ubiquitous.

But you asserted pot is NOT dangerous.

By your logic it should also be illegal.


I support decriminalization of ALL drugs: heroin, oxy, viagra, alcohol, tobacco, ....This means the govt can't impose 'sin' taxes, everyone will be held accountable for their actions and no welfare benefits to purchase.
Clorox bleach kills if swallowed and is not illegal.

Oct 03, 2014
Unintended side effects and negative reactions are ubiquitous.

But you asserted pot is NOT dangerous.


I did no such thing. I simply stated that the most dangerous thing is getting caught in possession with it. This statement is true for the vast majority of people.

Everything is dangerous to a degree. Even a soft fluffy kitten can make you very ill.
http://en.wikiped..._disease

By your logic it should also be illegal.


I support decriminalization of ALL drugs: heroin, oxy, viagra, alcohol, tobacco, ....This means the govt can't impose 'sin' taxes, everyone will be held accountable for their actions and no welfare benefits to purchase.
Clorox bleach kills if swallowed and is not illegal.


The government may not be able to impose sin taxes in your scheme but they certainly would have to increase other taxes to pay for the problems created by decriminalizing heroin oxy and other dangerously addictive and mind altering drugs.


Oct 03, 2014
single greatest danger of MJ continues to be getting caught


"In March, the state logged what appeared to be its first death directly tied to legal recreational marijuana when a 19-year-old African exchange student, Levy Thamba Pongi, plunged to his death in Denver. He and three other students had driven from their college in Wyoming to sample Colorado's newly legal wares. Mr. Pongi ate marijuana-infused cookies, began acting wildly and leapt from a hotel balcony, officials said; the medical examiner's office said marijuana intoxication had made a "significant" contribution to the accident."
http://www.nytime...igh.html


" the medical examiner's office said marijuana intoxication had made a "significant" contribution to the accident."

That is a claim that's tough to prove. Ever heard of pre-existing conditions?

Oct 03, 2014
have to increase other taxes to pay for the problems created by decriminalizing heroin oxy and other dangerously addictive and mind altering drugs.


But not pot?

Why should anyone who doesn't abuse drugs be forced to pay for those who do?

I did no such thing. I simply stated that the most dangerous thing ...

Yes, you did. "The MOST dangerous thing... " The most dangerous thing is killing yourself or others by using pot.

It's amusing to watch the potheads twist themselves into knots justifying their addiction.

Oct 03, 2014
have to increase other taxes to pay for the problems created by decriminalizing heroin oxy and other dangerously addictive and mind altering drugs.


But not pot?


Pot has never been shown to cause the same issues or dependency as those other drugs.

Why should anyone who doesn't abuse drugs be forced to pay for those who do?


Who said that?

I did no such thing. I simply stated that the most dangerous thing ...

Yes, you did. "The MOST dangerous thing... " The most dangerous thing is killing yourself or others by using pot.

Not possible.

It's amusing to watch the potheads twist themselves into knots justifying their addiction.


Who has killed themselves using pot that hasn't been altered by your beloved corporations?

Using MJ is not a lethal act nor is it addictive. Prove otherwise.

More lies from ryggysoggypants.

Supported by Vietvet I see.

Too much agent orange in Nam eh?

Maybe antigoracle is right about you after all? Pity


Oct 03, 2014
Pot has never been shown to cause the same issues or dependency as those other drugs.

It think it has based upon your rabid support.

Not possible.

You don't believe the newspapers?

"One man jumped to his death after consuming a large amount of marijuana contained in a cookie, and in the other case, a man allegedly shot and killed his wife after eating marijuana candy."
http://www.cbsnew...ana-use/

Oct 03, 2014
""Cannabis is as dangerous as cigarette smoking - in fact, it may be even worse - and downgrading its legal status has simply confused people.

"We have a clear public message about cigarette smoking. Every year, the number of smokers gets smaller and the message on packets about the dangers gets bigger.

"At present, there is no battle against cannabis and no clear public health message."

In today's issue of the British Medical Journal, Prof Henry and other doctors from Imperial College, and St Mary's Hospital, both in London, say cannabis could be a major contributor to UK deaths. "
"The level of active ingredient in cannabis, tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) has increased from around 0.5 per cent 20 years ago to almost five per cent today. THC affects the heart and blood vessels and many sudden deaths have been attributed to cannabis smoking. "
http://www.dailym...ear.html

Oct 03, 2014
This explains rocky:

"Marijuana increases the risk of psychosis, in which people lose touch with reality and may experience delusions, hallucinations and paranoia"
http://www.usatod...0386699/

Oct 03, 2014
This explains rocky:

"Marijuana increases the risk of psychosis, in which people lose touch with reality and may experience delusions, hallucinations and paranoia"
http://www.usatod...0386699/


Rhetoric.


Oct 03, 2014
It's amusing to watch the potheads twist themselves into knots justifying their addiction.


You have again presented more false assumptions.

Although I have indulged in the past I cannot, due to my asthma smoke MJ or cigarettes. Which is also the source of my fervid support for alternative enegry.

I'm just well aware of the BS that has been presented regarding MJ.

I personally have known several people who have ended up in the hospital or the morgue due to alcohol or hard drugs. The same cannot be said for MJ.

I'm not trying to present a story that MJ is harmless, but that its harm has been overstated and the measures used to control are barbaric, cruel and unjustified.

You cannot present to me a valid argument stating MJ is dangerous and should be illegal and alcohol is safe and should remain legal.

What is it with you? Do you like being wrong all the time?

Oct 03, 2014
Pot has never been shown to cause the same issues or dependency as those other drugs.

It think it has based upon your rabid support.

Not possible.

You don't believe the newspapers?

"One man jumped to his death after consuming a large amount of marijuana contained in a cookie, and in the other case, a man allegedly shot and killed his wife after eating marijuana candy."
http://www.cbsnew...ana-use/


Again, deaths caused by MJ that has been processed by a corporation.

Some unscrupulous growers have been known to add toxic ingredients for one reason or another. Whether to increase yields during growth or dry weight or to "improve" quality. All the more reason for legalization.

Come on ryg. You capitalists should be thrilled at the prospect of obtaining a new and vast industry. Think of all the $$$$ your buddies in the alcohol lobby could make if they started growing.

Oct 03, 2014
This explains rocky:

"Marijuana increases the risk of psychosis, in which people lose touch with reality and may experience delusions, hallucinations and paranoia"
http://www.usatod...0386699/


Rhetoric.



I'm deeply disappointed in your rejection of EVIDENCE that there can be negative consequences of using marijuana. I'm puzzled by your emotional reactions when this is pointed out to you.

Is it okay to hand a joint and the car keys to minor and say "have fun kid"? Or an adult to smoke MJ and drive?

By your reasoning marijuana is so safe a pilot can toke up and fly 300 passengers across the country.

You seem to have a persecution complex when it comes to pot and I'm puzzled why.


Oct 03, 2014
I do not smoke the pot my own self. I tried it a few times years ago but did not like it. But I really don't have strong feelings against it no. I prefer that peoples don't use around me at work and they test real often for that. And it probably is not a good idea to smoke and then drive but drinking and driving is bad too.

But this article is about how some of the growers is affecting the streams and fish. It don't matter none to me if you are for or against pot but everybody ought to be against ruining streams and fisheries.

Oct 03, 2014
You seem to have a persecution complex when it comes to pot and I'm puzzled why


I wonder why Soros is so eager to promote pot?

"Loughner's use of marijuana apparently began in high school. Caitie Parker, who attended Mountain View High School and Pima Community College along with Loughner, called him a pothead who was "quite liberal" and "left-wing." He hated religion, listened to acid rock, and posted a link to an American flag-burning video.

Because of the evidence that Loughner was a pothead, and the evidence that marijuana abuse is linked to mental illness, the Soros-funded marijuana lobby is working overtime to try to draw media attention away from his addiction to the drug.

Interestingly, the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML) had attacked Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, who was seriously wounded in the shootings, for opposing decriminalization of marijuana. "
http://www.rights...ros-fund

Oct 04, 2014
""If the marijuana industry really wants to influence the political process, they need to start by helping stoners remember to vote. I wonder if regular pot smokers pay enough attention to politics to make a positive impact.""
http://www.tpnn.c...estions/

Oct 04, 2014
Is it okay to hand a joint and the car keys to minor and say "have fun kid"? Or an adult to smoke MJ and drive?
ok, from MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, i have certain feelings about MJ...
1- I have picked up the remains of people who tried MJ and drove on the autobahn, so I am against MJ use and driving, flying or heavy machinery
2- I have also done this with regard to alcohol, and I am also dead against this
3- I have never touched the stuff but most of my family members are burnt out pot-heads, so i have a very negative attachment there
4- I personally don't care one whit about it being legal. after all, people chill out after its use (like Rock says) but I also know that it does affect the brain (like Vietvet says)

IMHO - i think that it should be legal for personal use like it is in Seville/Spain, etc but I think that there should be repercussions for using it and causing any problems/injuries, just like alcohol induced stupidity


Oct 05, 2014
Too funny! The stuff cures cancer and just about everything else. For fun it's safe, unlike tobacco and alcohol. Were it never criminalized in 1937 we would be enjoying plastic that was biodegradable. Not today's plastic that is clogging up our waterways and environment.

Oct 05, 2014
Hey ryggesogn2, you forgot one:

"I now have absolute proof that smoking even one marijuana cigarette is equal in brain damage to being on Bikini Island during an H-bomb blast."

Ronald Reagan

Oct 05, 2014
I'm ambivalent on recreational drug use. Seems like (for me, at least) there's always lots of better ways to spend time. But if ryg and his encyclopedia of cut-and-paste quotes don't approve, maybe there's something to it.

Oct 05, 2014
Hey ryggesogn2, you forgot one:

"I now have absolute proof that smoking even one marijuana cigarette is equal in brain damage to being on Bikini Island during an H-bomb blast."

Ronald Reagan

Smoke up. I don't care. Get cancer and/or brain damage, or not.

I said I support decriminalizing ALL drugs: tobacco, alcohol (which means ending the taxes and govt profit), opiates, cocaine, meth, ....
Stock up on body bags and with Obama socialized health care, all the risks are covered.

Oct 06, 2014

1- I have picked up the remains of people who tried MJ and drove on the autobahn, so I am against MJ use and driving, flying or heavy machinery
2- I have also done this with regard to alcohol, and I am also dead against this
3- I have never touched the stuff but most of my family members are burnt out pot-heads, so i have a very negative attachment there
4- I personally don't care one whit about it being legal. after all, people chill out after its use (like Rock says) but I also know that it does affect the brain (like Vietvet says)


Have you ever collected the remains of sober people? I'm sure you have. People crash all the time.

Either alcohol, MJ, painkillers, cough medicine, anti-depressants, cell phone, kids, pets, sleepiness, inattentiveness, stupidity, lack of skill.

The reasons are legion. Those people are all just as dead.

Oct 06, 2014
IMHO - i think that it should be legal for personal use like it is in Seville/Spain, etc but I think that there should be repercussions for using it and causing any problems/injuries, just like alcohol induced stupidity


Why should it matter what causes their stupidity. If a person causes harm to another person they should be held accountable.

If someone crashes into your house and kills your dog would you be mad if they were drunk?

Would you give them a pass if they were sober? If so why?

If a drunk crashes a car the reasons are fairly obvious and the blame is allocated accordingly. Yet if a sober person crashes people say "accidents happen".

But a drunk or a stoner never has an unavoidable crash, only sober people do right?

I'll add that although I don't condone drunk driving, the statistics are very skewed. A friend who had a few beers was rear ended while stopped at a red light and he was arrested/charged with impaired driving while the sober driver got a ticket.

?!?

Oct 06, 2014
"I'll add that although I don't condone drunk driving, the statistics are very skewed. A friend who had a few beers was rear ended while stopped at a red light and he was arrested/charged with impaired driving while the sober driver got a ticket."

That case ends up in the stats as an "alcohol involved collision".

Oct 06, 2014
Reagan never touched the stuff.

See the result?

Oct 06, 2014
@Vietvet
Rhetoric.


I'm deeply disappointed in your rejection of EVIDENCE that there can be negative consequences of using marijuana. I'm puzzled by your emotional reactions when this is pointed out to you.


1st of all it's ryggy's link which I never look at.

2nd. It's usa today. Garbage.

3rd. I've known lots of people who smoke MJ and none have ever reported hallucinations or delusions. Paranoia tho mild is fairly ubiquitous but could be related to illegality and stigma. If you wanna see someone paranoid check out some tweekers. Those hallucination stories are right out of the "Reefer Madness" movie.

4th. I've known lots of people who had hallucinations delusions and paranoia with alcohol plus extreme violence, vomiting, alcohol poisoning, pants pissing, self mutilation, terrible falls and other injuries.

MJ is an intoxicant. Why wouldn't I expect some negative aspects. Of course there is. Especially when mixed with alcohol and/or stupid people.

Oct 06, 2014
@Vietvet

Is it okay to hand a joint and the car keys to minor and say "have fun kid"? Or an adult to smoke MJ and drive?


I never said it was ok for kids. Better MJ than alcohol.

By your reasoning marijuana is so safe a pilot can toke up and fly 300 passengers across the country.


It's meant for after work same as booze. I have never said otherwise.

You seem to have a persecution complex when it comes to pot and I'm puzzled why.


Because I know lots of people who have been prosecuted for MJ. I consider that to be persecution due to the fact its less a danger to society than alcohol.

My friends have been prosecuted unjustly thus I feel they have been persecuted.

You who would go to Vietnam to fight on behalf of others thinks I should just ignore this injustice. For that I have a complex?

Give your fucking head a shake.


Oct 06, 2014
This points out the need for regulation and taxation of supply.

Oct 06, 2014
@Rockwolf

"MJ is an intoxicant. Why wouldn't I expect some negative aspects. Of course there is."

That's what I've been pointing out.

So why the the personal attacks?


Oct 06, 2014
Better MJ than alcohol.

In the case of handling machinery I'd argue there is no 'better'.

I bet ISIS was caused by pot use

Well...at least alcohol is off the hook, there (j/k)


The only ax I have to grind is against the fanatic marijuana advocates who refuse to acknowledge
there can be negative consequences

I'm not sure there is anyone (who isn't completely averse to the idea of marijuana) who says this is a black and white issue. Even users know that there are down sides (e.g. people who overindulge or use it while performing complicated/dangerous tasks)

So as long as we stick to alcohol I see no real argument against marijuana. There's always gonna be people who are willing to play with their mind. However, we should teach kids that their mind is the ONLY resource they can ever depend upon. And that if it fails then it's 'game over'. That might limit the impulse to damage it.

Oct 06, 2014
Think of the number of lives lost because of Harry Anslinger.

Oct 06, 2014
Have you ever collected the remains of sober people?
@rockwolf
yes, I have. But considering the bulk of the bodies were people under the influence, I can honestly state that the sober people were usually the victims of the people under the influence
Why should it matter what causes their stupidity
I think you misunderstood me. My point is that people should not be able to use the excuse of being under the influence to mitigate punishment AND there should be repercussions for ANY acts done as a direct result of being impaired... with ANYTHING... not just MJ

that is it

Please don't make assumptions that proclaim something that is not evident or written, rock... Thanks

I personally don't care one whit about the stuff, and I know that people don't normally get aggressive on the stuff (as long as alcohol is not involved)

I just don't personally like it, will never use it, and I don't care to have it around

Oct 06, 2014
That case ends up in the stats as an "alcohol involved collision"
@Rock
without knowing all the facts, i cannot comment, but it is not uncommon that law enforcement is cracking down hard on any impaired drivers. it happens here as well.
Yet if a sober person crashes people say "accidents happen"
depends on the accident
MOST accidents are avoidable and are not accidents so much as stupidity, inattention or driver error

I would also like to share AA_P's point that I agree with as well. He said
In the case of handling machinery I'd argue there is no 'better'
My POV is coloured by my past. I admit that. I have reservations due to my involvement with drugs/alcohol as an investigator, Paramedic and because of my siblings

it is also MY personal opinion
Don't take it personal
it was not meant to be taken this, nor was it meant to be an attack, towards you or anyone else

Thanks
no hard feelings

Oct 06, 2014
@Rockwolf

"MJ is an intoxicant. Why wouldn't I expect some negative aspects. Of course there is."

That's what I've been pointing out.

So why the the personal attacks?


Wow!! It's Dumb and Dumber.

Oct 06, 2014
@Rockwolf

"MJ is an intoxicant. Why wouldn't I expect some negative aspects. Of course there is."

That's what I've been pointing out.

So why the the personal attacks?


Wow!! It's Dumb and Dumber.


Your comments always are.

Keep up the good work ignoracle!

Oct 06, 2014
@Rockwolf

"MJ is an intoxicant. Why wouldn't I expect some negative aspects. Of course there is."

That's what I've been pointing out.

So why the the personal attacks?



I was a little perplexed to see your stamp of approval on ryggysoggypants the racist liar's post.

If you take issue with anything I say, please ask about it, or down vote it. But I would never uprate any of our in-house liars, racists or those with shit fetishes (ignoracle).

Oct 06, 2014
That case ends up in the stats as an "alcohol involved collision"
@Rock
without knowing all the facts, i cannot comment, but it is not uncommon that law enforcement is cracking down hard on any impaired drivers. it happens here as well.
Yet if a sober person crashes people say "accidents happen"
depends on the accident
MOST accidents are avoidable and are not accidents so much as stupidity, inattention or driver error

The proof is in the outcome. If a sober person kills another in an accident the charge is usually dangerous or careless driving at the most. Jail time is unheard of for most cases. Yet if a person who may have had a drink too many gets in the same exact accident the charge is vehicular manslaughter at a minimum. They are vilified and ostracized. Yet the sober killer is reassured by family and friends "accidents happen".

What we should be asking them is: You killed someone and your not even drunk - what's your excuse?

We know why drunks kill.


Oct 06, 2014
I would also like to share AA_P's point that I agree with as well. He said "In the case of handling machinery I'd argue there is no 'better'


There is no evidence to confirm that. I will always argue that alcohol has more power to intoxicate than MJ. It alters the mind in a very different fashion. I've seen it with my own eyes many times. People get drunk then they go crazy.

As a firefighter you must know lots of cops. Ask them which represents a greater danger.
1. A MJ user that has the munchies and an inability to stop laughing.
or
2. A belligerent violent drunk that considers himself not only intelligent but invincible.

Ask them how many MJ users became uncontrollably violent. How many drunks?

Why do you presume there is no common stereotype for a violent MJ user?

Oct 06, 2014
@Rockwolf

I understand your reaction to anything Ryggy posts because 99.99999999% of the time it's bs.

This is only the second time he has gotten an up vote from me because the news articles were valid.

Oct 06, 2014
@Rockwolf

I understand your reaction to anything Ryggy posts because 99.99999999% of the time it's bs.

This is only the second time he has gotten an up vote from me because the news articles were valid.


When I went back to college I did a report for English class on MJ. I specifically asked my friends, and for them to ask their friends if any of them had ever hallucinated on MJ alone.

The only response was no.

Alcohol - yes.
Mushrooms - yes.
LSD - yes.
Crack cocaine - yes.
Heroin - ?
Speed - yes.

MJ - no.

So although my evidence is purely anecdotal, I will point out the the study data is also anecdotal. There is no test to prove hallucinations occured as claimed.

Also, a lot of first time users said they were overwhelmed by the how MJ affected them and it scared them a little. I suspect many who claim hallucinations were those types of people or those who like to embellish the story a bit, more so if they have an ax to grind.

Oct 06, 2014
@Vietvet

cont'd

If they did have hallucinations so what???

We both know alcohol has the same effect yet it is legal while MJ is illegal. WHY?

What is the point of laying out all the negative (real or otherwise) aspects of MJ while ignoring the same for alcohol?

MJ and alcohol are not performance enhancing drugs (MJ might be depending on who you ask - see - http://en.wikiped...bagliati - or ask many artists, rock stars)

Thus they should not be used before or during potentially dangerous work. Suggesting one should be illegal while the other is legal simply because some people choose to indulge at work is ludicrous. Either they should both be legal or illegal.

I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how/why you draw a distinction between the two.

It's far easier to hide clandestine drinking than clandestine smoking given the distinct odor. Jeez a pilot could mix vodka in his coffee and drink it right in front of you. How would you know?

Try that with a joint!

Oct 06, 2014
How would you know?

Odor.

VV:
All my news articles are valid.

Oct 06, 2014
"A definitive 20-year study into the effects of long-term cannabis use has demolished the argument that the drug is safe.

Cannabis is highly addictive, causes mental health problems and opens the door to hard drugs, the study found.

"
"Last night Professor Hall, a professor of addiction policy at King's College London, dismissed the views of those who say that cannabis is harmless.

'If cannabis is not addictive then neither is heroin or alcohol,' he said.

'It is often harder to get people who are dependent on cannabis through withdrawal than for heroin – we just don't know how to do it.'

Those who try to stop taking cannabis often suffer anxiety, insomnia, appetite disturbance and depression, he found. Even after treatment, less than half can stay off the drug for six months."
http://www.dailym...ess.html

Oct 06, 2014
Yet if a person who may have had a drink ...They are vilified and ostracized.
@Rockwolf
a lot of that also depends on the investigating officer or prosecutor
I've never been so nice

one reason that I see a lot of that happening is the "show of force" tactic, where the gov't and all its many resources and arms, from local to federal, want to make people aware that it will crack down on use of mind altering substances while operating machines, etc.

This is similar to a case I argued recently with someone else about a man getting no charges because he shot his son with an unloaded gun
Had I been the investigator, I would have pushed for manslaughter at the least... because everyone knows there is no such thing as an unloaded gun (anyone responsible, anyway)
but the prosecutor took pity on him

I dont agree with it, but i cannot change that either

so you are railing against the system
i understand it
go ahead... I got big shoulders

Oct 06, 2014
It alters the mind in a very different fashion
@Rock
I also believed this once

now... the following is NOT A CHALLENGE to your beliefs, but simply something that I personally was involved in

When in Germany (Ramstein), a test was given to a few of us (in participation with the college and the military). A person was given a driving test sober, and then on MJ (yeah- lucky bastard, right?)
The sober person did very well in the test, but when affected by MJ he wrecked more than four times (BTW - the person chosen was a chronic user; i know this because he was my best friend at the time)
Luckily, those were just cones and dummies.
This same person had told me time and again that he drives MUCH better after toking up, by the way. I watched this unfold and I learned a little something important: just because I might believe something doesn't make it true

That is what drove me to accept much stricter standards of proof than just someone's word
and back into college as well
JUST IMHO

Oct 06, 2014
As a firefighter you must know lots of cops. Ask them which represents a greater danger.
@Rock
Yeah.. I know plenty(family business)
I don't need to ask a cop about this one though.
I've lived it myself many times... when I was at Ramstein, we did all the emergency medical runs from Landstuhl (yes, the hospital) to Baumholder, and most points in between including on the autobahn

that meant all those great alcohol related fights and injuries that the cops respond to...

I understand where you are coming from
really, I do
if any of them had ever hallucinated on MJ alone.
& Let me CLARIFY MY POSITION about this
there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between hallucinations and impairment
I am talking about IMPAIRMENT... NOT hallucinations
I also prefer dealing with pot-heads (except when they should be talking science, like on here) rather than drunks, FYI

i also think it should be legal (pot)

Oct 06, 2014
I will point out the the study data is also anecdotal. There is no test to prove hallucinations occured as claimed.
@Rock OR Vietvet
ok... which study is this in reference to?

and what was being done?
Self reporting or checking with MRI or other methods that CAN indicate altered status of the brain like hallucinations?

Just asking... and if you wouldn't mind telling me WHICH study, too..

THANKS

Oct 06, 2014
This is amusing to see stumpy sounding so nice.

We almost agree. I don't want drugs legalized which leads to taxation. I want decriminalization: govt doesn't care and doesn't control any aspects of any drugs.
The govt could only act as the referee in court cases, where, for example, drug users sue manufactures for faulty products or victims of drug users are sued.
No drug use could be excused for any criminal offense.
"Ain't Nobody's Business If They Do" is a good book on the topic.

Oct 07, 2014
We both know alcohol has the same effect yet it is legal while MJ is illegal. WHY?

It's easily taxable and it's easily testable. (It -used to be- impossible to test for MJ without a blood test or other expensive testing apparatus until quite recently. So it isn't easy to make sure people under the influence don't drive, etc. ) . In the end I suspect it comes down to tradition. The conservative part of the population has accepted alcohol for millennia (without thinking about it - as usual), but MJ is 'new'. 'New' equates to dangeous/to be feared to conservatives. They like everything to stay the way it is so that they feel some semblance of 'control' (forgetting that the world/the universe is a dynamic system - but that's another discussion).

Jeez a pilot could mix vodka in his coffee and drink it right in front of you. How would you know?

Try that with a joint

Ewww. A joint in coffee? That sounds nasty.

Oct 07, 2014
This is amusing to see stumpy sounding so nice.
@rygtard
I happen to like both people and I understand and can relate with both points of view
And you would be surprised about the things we agree on... but since you usually have your head stuck up your backside, you don't notice those things... so I stopped giving you positive votes a long time ago because you ignore everything else anyway

I started out being nice to you as well, but you simply ran stupidity into the ground, and then did a Mexican Hat dance, the Flamenco, Texas Two Step, Waltz, Windmill, Backspin, the Stomp, Twerking and more all over it

you don't deserve nice because you don't use logic, science, communication

and you lie blatantly... and then blame others for your shortcomings and stupidity

and i don't like your political logic or your conspiracy crap, either

http://phys.org/n...firstCmt

Oct 07, 2014
The truth comes out:

i don't like your political logic


Not very scientific of you.

Oct 07, 2014
"Delaware State Police say they have arrested the mother of a 4-year-old girl after the child allegedly brought heroin to a daycare center and started to pass it out to other classmates."
http://patriotupd...daycare/

'Interstate 60' is a great movie. One segment highlights a town run by sheriff Kurt Russel. All in the town can use an addicting,ecstasy type drug, free, party all night but must labor for the town during the day.

Should those who want to be drug addicts submit to sterilization and be like Huxley's gamma people?

Oct 07, 2014
"Price was "forthcoming" about his role as the headmaster at Branson. He portrayed his relationship with Hall as a "casual hookup," according to the Independent Journal.

Police believe Price has been carrying on an ongoing, drug-laden "casual hookup" with the 21-year-old Hall for a couple years now.

Price is currently free on $75,000 bail. However, he apparently didn't bother to bail out his "casual hookup" partner, according to the San Francisco Chronicle. She was still sitting in jail as of Monday, waiting to be arraigned.

The former headmaster is a two-time Ivy League graduate. He holds a master's degree from Columbia University and a doctorate from the University of Pennsylvania."
http://dailycalle...d-woman/

Oct 07, 2014
"A prosecutor told a jury Monday that a friend of Boston Marathon bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev lied repeatedly to the FBI during the investigation into the deadly attack, while the friend's lawyer said he was a frightened 19-year-old whose memory was clouded by heavy marijuana use."
http://www.myfoxb...too-high

"During his ABC show Monday, late night host Jimmy Kimmel aired a rather funny video of one of his staff asking Angelenos to identify Biden. Not a single one of those interviewed (which, in fairness, was slightly less than the entire population of Los Angeles) knew Biden was the Vice President of the United States."
http://dailycalle...iden-is/
One admitted to being wasted wearing a MJ scarf.

Oct 07, 2014
It alters the mind in a very different fashion
@Rock
I also believed this once

now... the following is NOT A CHALLENGE to your beliefs, but simply something that I personally was involved in

When in Germany (Ramstein), a test was given to a few of us (in participation with the college and the military). A person was given a driving test sober, and then on MJ (yeah- lucky bastard, right?)
The sober person did very well in the test, but when affected by MJ he wrecked more than four times (BTW - the person chosen was a chronic user; i know this because he was my best friend at the time)


So to make it a valid test someone must have performed it under the influence of alcohol.

What was that result?

If your friend had never crashed in real life while using MJ what made the results of the test so different?

Oct 07, 2014
@CS

There was a distracted driving test on TV where people were asked to negotiate an obstacle course while answering questions on a cell phone. The test was totally unrealistic as the drivers were forced to drive quickly thru a combination of WW2 and Grand Pris conditions while holding a cell phone and maintaining a minimum speed.

Most thinking people would probably put down the phone or slow down if they had to make emergency stops, high G turns or had pedestrians purposely jumping in front of them every 5 seconds.

Sometimes such tests are constructed to obtain a certain outcome and are not relevant to everyday life. Not suggesting the test you witnessed was one, but they do exist.

Oct 07, 2014
"Two new studies have found that voice-activated smartphones and dashboard infotainment systems may be making the distracted-driving problem worse instead of better."

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp

Oct 07, 2014
@Rock OR Vietvet
ok... which study is this in reference to?

and what was being done?
Self reporting or checking with MRI or other methods that CAN indicate altered status of the brain like hallucinations?

THANKS


I was in general, responding to the quote rygg provided stating: "Marijuana increases the risk of psychosis, in which people lose touch with reality and may experience delusions, hallucinations and paranoia" in USAToday. I didn't read it but have read similar hogwash elsewhere.

Saying "MJ causes hallucinations"
is exactly equivalent to saying
"Peanuts cause fatal allergic reactions"

It may be true in certain limited instances but is not true generally. Remember Strawberries & Pineapples?

Again, I have never heard of or seen anyone have psychosis using MJ.

Delusions? Jeez, almost everyone has these. See the posts at phys.org!

Losing touch with reality? Watch the news. It's rampant.

Withdrawal? Ever saw a caffeine addict go without his coffee? That's scary!

Oct 07, 2014
"Two new studies have found that voice-activated smartphones and dashboard infotainment systems may be making the distracted-driving problem worse instead of better."

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp


Other studies have indicated distracted driving has eclipsed impaired driving in the total number of casualties. (Feel free to look it up)

Yet where is the support for automatic jail sentences for distracted drivers?

Is there a push to have convicted distracted drivers install a device in their car to ensure that no cell phones etc. are being used?

The main issue is people don't know how to be reasonable.

Oct 07, 2014
The truth comes out:

i don't like your political logic


Not very scientific of you.
@ryg
you are right...
but since you don't offer SCIENCE then that is the only thing which I can vote on in your posts...

you also have a fear and loathing of empirical evidence as well as studies (especially scientific studies)

given that, there are not many other choices with regard to your posts, is there?

http://phys.org/n...firstCmt


Oct 07, 2014
Does Rocky support the vigorous prosecution of anyone using drugs and causing harm to otters?
Should the friend of the Boston bomber be excused for being high?

Oct 07, 2014
you also have a fear and loathing of empirical evidence as well as studies

Are referring to THE GLOBAL CLIMATE MODEL that asserts ONLY human generated CO2 is the cause of 'climate change'?

"Break out the record book: 49 a new low temp for Oct. 6"
http://www.ocala....or-Oct-6

"Winter Arrives Early in Alaska, Snow for All Canadian Provinces"
http://www.drroys...ovinces/

Oct 07, 2014
Most thinking people would probably put down the phone or slow down if they had to make emergency stops, high G turns or had pedestrians purposely jumping in front of them every 5 seconds.

The point of such a test is more what would happen if suddenly an emergency condition appeared (i.e. no time to put the phone down and the need to make difficult driving moves). In that these tests are even on the easy siode, a the driver knows he's going to be tested and knows can see the course seconds in advance.

It's pretty obvious that if you're holding a phone to your ear taking your reaction time (and the ability to steer given you're using one hand less) does suffer.
Driving is not 'fun-time' (however much the auto industry would like us to believe it). It's serious business where we move a hunk of metal around at potentially lethal speeds to us and everyone around us..

Oct 07, 2014
So to make it a valid test ...alcohol.
What was that result?
@rock
the alcoholic did far worse
but that was not the point of the test
the point of the test was to show people who believed that they were better drivers under the influence of certain drugs that they were not as in control as they thought they were
distracted driving test on TV
I've seen some clips
I am against using a cell phone when driving - this test point was pretty much the same thing
are not relevant to everyday life
true. those tests are out there.
mostly what I remember was that there were many people (like my friend) who actually believed that they were better at something under the influence of drugs or alcohol... they were proven wrong and it was a very cogent test with a serious impact on how i viewed things
never crashed in real life while using MJ
1yr after this test he flipped a vehicle because of it... but the other occupants saved his butt because no one was hurt bad

Oct 07, 2014
Are referring to THE GLOBAL CLIMATE MODEL that asserts ONLY human generated CO2 is the cause of 'climate change'?
@Rygtard
i am referring to pretty much ANY science article... but you can pick whatever you like
after all, you've demonstrated my point with your post!
your "evidence" is an article from florida & A BLOG
NEITHER one was a study published in a reputable peer reveiwed publication with an impact in climate science...
AND
you start the whole argument off with a FALSE PREMISS
THE GLOBAL CLIMATE MODEL that asserts ONLY human generated CO2 is the cause of 'climate change'
Strawman much?
http://phys.org/n...firstCmt

http://arstechnic...nformed/

what do you do for an encore? blame the global sex trade on chicken promiscuity?

Oct 07, 2014
Somebody tell Rygg to disconnect from his keyboard and go see how the world has changed since he last had the guts to look.

Oct 07, 2014
Does Rocky support the vigorous prosecution of anyone using drugs and causing harm to otters?
Should the friend of the Boston bomber be excused for being high?


Either you don't read my comments, can't understand them, or have terrible memory (are you smoking too much pot?) otherwise you would have recognized this comment I made further up the thread.

"Why should it matter what causes their stupidity. If a person causes harm to another person they should be held accountable."

I believe everyone should be held accountable for every harm the commit upon others.

Oct 07, 2014
Most thinking people would probably put down the phone or slow down if they had to make emergency stops, high G turns or had pedestrians purposely jumping .

The point of such a test is more what would happen if suddenly an emergency condition appeared (i.e. no time to put the phone down and the need to make difficult driving moves). In that these tests are even on the easy siode, a the driver knows he's going to be tested and knows can see the course seconds in advance.


Yes you're absolutely correct.

I thought it was peculiar that they felt it was necessary to force people to drive the course at a minimum speed (fast) as if that were a requirement in real life when in actual fact people who continue to talk in those conditions would most likely slow down. The speed and shape of the course was such that 2 handed steering was required.

I can't remember the last time I needed 2 hands to steer my car.

I see them everyday, dragging ass and gabbing on the phone.

Oct 07, 2014
So to make it a valid test ...alcohol.
What was that result? @rock the alcoholic did far worse


Not surprised at all. Alcohol is way worse than MJ.

but that was not the point of the test
the point of the test was to show people who believed that they were better drivers under the influence of certain drugs that they were not as in control as they thought they were


Interesting. I've heard of people claiming they were still competent to drive on MJ but haven't heard any say they were better on it. Some say they have more focus on MJ. Perhaps the stress of the test environment and the expectation to preform well played a role? Performance anxiety?

Would be interesting to run the test on painkillers, anti-depressants, mood stabilizers, muscle relaxers, antibiotics or during caffeine withdrawal.

1yr after this test he flipped a vehicle because of it... but the other occupants saved his butt because no one was hurt bad


What factors determined causality?

Oct 07, 2014
"Would be interesting to run the test on painkillers, anti-depressants, mood stabilizers, muscle relaxers, antibiotics or during caffeine withdrawal."


I think most people would be shocked that everyday medications leave them in a state comparable to drunkenness. In fact, if tests for these substances were possible, a sizable fraction of the population would find themselves in contravention of impaired driving laws without realizing it.

Now take old age. It has been shown to reduce reaction times substantially, to impede visual/mental acuity and to reduce physical strength and endurance. Yet being old and driving is not a crime. Certainly not punishable by jail time but the fact remains that these people are controlling large and dangerous equipment even though their ability has been impaired by old age.

Can you be sued for causing a crash while driving under the influence of old age and if not, why?

What is the difference?

Driving while ability is known to be impaired.

Oct 07, 2014
reputable peer reveiwed publication

How can any 'pal' reviewed climate journal be considered credible, except by fellow travelers?

Oct 07, 2014
"One issue of particular concern in the context of climate models is the existence of adequate documentation for the model's conceptual basis, assumptions, solution methods, sources of significant uncertainty, input data, and model history. This documentation is needed for the models to be useful and credible for scientists outside the core modeling group, and for public accountability when these models are used for decision making. Further, the validation of climate models and their evaluation against observation is inadequate (and much less extensive than it could/should be), particularly in the context of fitness for many of the purposes for which they are being used."
http://judithcurr...idation/

Oct 07, 2014
"The cold waters of Earth's deep ocean have not warmed measurably since 2005, according to a new NASA study, leaving unsolved the mystery of why global warming appears to have slowed in recent years."
http://www.jpl.na...ure=4321

Oct 08, 2014
Can you be sued for causing a crash while driving under the influence of old age and if not, why?

You can if it can be shown that you were
- under the influence of medication that prohibits driving/operating machinery
- are 'unfit to drive' (which is a very vague way of stating it, but if reaction, sight or hearing can be shown to have been seriously impaired then that person will losed their license at the very least)

- and basically: you can ALWAYS be sued for causing a crash. Whether the cause is medical, biological, drug induced or just lack of attention.

You are required to give your undivided attention to the road. Using a phone is not 'undivded attention' (even with a headset)


Oct 08, 2014
Can you be sued for causing a crash while driving under the influence of old age and if not, why?
@Rock
I was going to answer this but AA_P is absolutely correct. no need to repeat it.
I think most people would be shocked that ...contravention of impaired driving laws without realizing it
absolutely
What factors determined causality?
small tight mountain road with poor long range visibility and lots of curves, oncoming traffic, his being stoned (but the least stoned of the group), increased speed (too fast for safety), showing off how excellent a driver he was while stoned (the group passed this on)
reputable peer reveiwed publication

How can any 'pal' reviewed climate journal be considered credible, except by fellow travelers?
@ryg
buy a dictionary, moron, and try re-reading that for comprehension
just more proof that you have NO IDEA about the scientific method, SCIENCE in general or the peer review process

Oct 08, 2014
"Well, this is "the way it is supposed to be." But in the intellectually inbred, filthy-rich world of climate science, where billions of dollars of government research money support trillions of dollars of government policy, peer review has become anything but that.

There is simply no "double blindness." For reasons that remain mysterious, all the major climate journals leave the authors' names on the manuscripts sent out for review."
"Peer review has become "pal review." Send a paper to one of the very many journals published by the American Geophysical Union–the world's largest publisher of academic climate science–and you can suggest five reviewers. The editor doesn't have to take your advice, but he's more likely to if you bought him dinner at the last AGU meeting, isn't he? That is, of course, unless journal editors are somehow different than government officials, congressmen, or you."
http://www.forbes...n-climat

Oct 09, 2014
I would murder anyone in a heartbeat that threatens to take away my tax payer subsidized pot and cell phone.

Oct 10, 2014
She has a point:

"On a similar note, Aristotle wisely observed that while there is a connection between character and law, the aim of law is not to make the lawbreaker virtuous but to "protect civic virtue between citizens," says Professor Ekow N. Yankah. Thus, criminalizing drug use or prostitution does not seek to instill virtue in the drug user or the prostitute. Rather, it protects civic virtue. It protects children from the absentee drug-ridden parents and the female gender from sexual exploitation."
http://dailycalle...ation/2/

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