Racism linked with gun ownership and opposition to gun control in white Americans

A new study has found that higher levels of racism in white Americans is associated with having a gun in the home and greater opposition to gun control policies.

The research, published in PLoS One, was led by Dr Kerry O'Brien from The University of Manchester and Monash University and used data from a large representative sample of white US voters.

After accounting for numerous other factors such as income, education and political ideology, the researchers found that for each one point increase (on a scale from one to five) in symbolic there was a 50 percent increase in the odds of having a gun in the home and a 28 percent increase in support for policies allowing people to carry concealed guns.

Each one point increase in symbolic racism (a modern measure of anti-black racism) was also associated with a 27 percent increase in the odds of opposing bans on hand guns in the home. After accounting for those who already had a gun in the home, the odds were reduced to a non-significant 17 percent increase. However, the authors note that this reduction is unsurprising as opposition to bans on guns equates to self interest on behalf of those who already own a gun and do not wish to give it up. And racism was already strongly associated with having a gun in the home.

The research was stimulated by gun control debates in the US after mass shootings such as the Sandy Hook tragedy, and research showing that with all things being equal black Americans are more likely to be shot than whites. The most recent figures show that there are approximately 38,000 gun related deaths in the US each year. With other research suggesting that having a gun in the home is related to a 2.7 and 4.8 fold increase in the risk of a member of that home dying from homicide or suicide, respectively.

Dr O'Brien said: "Coming from countries with strong gun control policies, and a 30-fold lower rate of gun-related homicides, we found the arguments for opposing gun control counterintuitive and somewhat illogical. For example, US whites oppose gun control to a far greater extent than do blacks, but whites are actually more likely to kill themselves with their guns, than be killed by someone else. Why would you keep them? So we decided to examine what social and psychological factors predict gun ownership and opposition to gun control."

Conservatism, anti-government sentiment, party identification, being from a southern state, were also associated with opposition to gun controls, but the association between racism and the gun-related outcomes remained after accounting for these factors and other participant characteristics (age, education, income, gender).

Symbolic racism supplanted old-fashioned or overt/blatant racism which was associated with open support for race inequality and segregation under 'Jim Crow Laws', but it still captures the anti-black sentiment and traditional values that underpinned blatant racism. Symbolic racism has also been found to be related to stronger opposition to policies that may benefit blacks (e.g. welfare), and greater support for policies that seem to disadvantage blacks (e.g. longer prison sentences).

Study co-author Dr Dermot Lynott, from Lancaster University, said: "We were initially surprised that no one had studied this issue before; however, the US government cut research funding for gun-related research over decade and a half ago, so research in this area has been somewhat suppressed."

Dr O'Brien said: "According to a Pew Research Center report the majority of white Americans support stricter , but the results of our study suggest that those who oppose reform tend to have a stronger racial bias, tend to be politically and ideologically conservative and from southern states, and have higher anti-government sentiment."

He added: "The study is a first step, but there needs to be more investment in empirical research around how racial bias may influence people's decisions, particularly those policies that impact on the health and wellbeing of US citizens."


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Citation: Racism linked with gun ownership and opposition to gun control in white Americans (2013, October 31) retrieved 19 October 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2013-10-racism-linked-gun-ownership-opposition.html
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Oct 31, 2013
Now do the same thing with black voters.... the outcome should be interesting.

Nov 01, 2013
Garbage... well, almost. Actually, I think the fear of our government and it's 'running wild' defense department and counter-terrorism department are what is behind this. Hell, look at the Congress! There are other factors too, but these two are paramount. Left or right,
If things were a bit different, I'd even say that there is a possibility of civil war in the US of A.

Nov 01, 2013
US propaganda. Bullets know no race

Nov 01, 2013
Combined B.S. and Balderdash = a 'hit piece' from what once was 'A Govt. Of, For, and By We The People'
An 'Aristocratic' congress, and a fraud king has made the/our govt. The Enemy of We The People, not the other-way 'round!
It has been alluded 'that congress should 'rent some backbone' . . . perhaps it is We The People who should be shopping for 'stiffer vertebrae'!
Washington represents 'repression, oppression, domination, re-election!
Washington DOES NOT Represent We The People!
We The People are on our own!

Roy J Stewart,
Phoenix AZ


Nov 01, 2013
Look at all the Conservative Dung-Heads denying the obvious.

Once Conservative disease is exterminated from the face of the earth, human progress will proceed without limit.

Nov 01, 2013
Good thing Jesus was an Israeli (white and christian) and not a jew, as jews are not allowed to own guns.

Nov 01, 2013
"Good thing Jesus was an Israeli" - Humpty

Looks like Humpty is here to post pure Tea-Tard idiocy.


Nov 01, 2013
'Liberals' can't defend themselves on the merits of their positions so they must accuse their opponents of...racism....
And 'liberals' say this site isn't biased.

Nov 01, 2013
This "study" is an unbelievable fraud. Why does Phys.Org not understand the difference between a "study" and propaganda?

Symbolic racism supplanted old-fashioned or overt/blatant racism which was associated with open support for race inequality and segregation under 'Jim Crow Laws', but it still captures the anti-black sentiment and traditional values that underpinned blatant racism. Symbolic racism has also been found to be related to stronger opposition to policies that may benefit blacks (e.g. welfare), and greater support for policies that seem to disadvantage blacks (e.g. longer prison sentences).


So when they can't find actual racism they invent a new term, "symbolic racism" and define it as being against policies that they advocate.

Nov 01, 2013
"Liberals' can't defend themselves on the merits of their positions" - RyggTard

I would say not cravenly wanting the tools to murder your neighbours is pretty good evidence that you don't want to murder your neighbours.

Here in the socialist states we generally have no need to murder our neighbours. We don't cower in fear of our neighbours like our American Counterparts do.

In Tea-Tards like RyggTard, the fear and cowardice runs deep.

Nov 01, 2013
For example, US whites oppose gun control to a far greater extent than do blacks, but whites are actually more likely to kill themselves with their guns, than be killed by someone else.


http://frontpagem...ite-men/ over ten times that of other races and their crime rate is off the charts, and this is indicative of a failed and out of control culture. Even if whites base their decision of gun ownership on this fact (false in general), it would be a natural reaction to events, not itself racism.

The "study" is an abject fraud.

Here in the socialist states we generally have no need to murder our neighbours. We don't cower in fear of our neighbours like our American Counterparts do.


It is only because you are all being robbed by your government equally, and are all forced to be equally poor and pathetic. When the Nazi's came to power, the crime rate plumeted too. This is a fact.

Nov 01, 2013
we found the arguments for opposing gun control counterintuitive and somewhat illogical.

No. Really? Do tell.

But seriously it makes a lot of sense: You own a gun because you're afraid. And racism is driven by fear. Fear of being worth less (not worthless...but that may be part of it).
Some people just can't escape from the fact that they are (below) average. This leads to (justifiable?) low self esteem, and the only way out is to turn to "being X" (where X may be a race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, religion, affiliation with a sports team,... whetever) as a sign of their - supposed - worth/supremacy over others.

And if everything fails it's turning to "I'm stronger than you". And as they can't make that happen physically (or mentally) their only out is: buying a gun.


Nov 01, 2013
"This "study" is an unbelievable fraud" - NumenTard

Of course NumenTard offers no evidence of Fraud.

I consider this "study" to be nothing more than a confirmation of a commonly accepted correlation between Racism and Conservatism and Conservatism and Gun Grubbing causing the correlation between Racism and Gun Grubbing.


Nov 01, 2013
"Fear of being worth less (not worthless...but that may be part of it).
Some people just can't escape from the fact that they are (below) average. This leads to (justifiable?) low self esteem, and the only way out is to turn to "being X" (where X may be a race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, religion, affiliation with a sports team,... whetever) as a sign of their - supposed - worth/supremacy over others. " - Antialias

Wow... A truly excellent observation Antialias.

I tip my cap to you in appreciation.

Nov 01, 2013
"This "study" is an unbelievable fraud" - NumenTard

Of course NumenTard offers no evidence of Fraud.

I consider this "study" to be nothing more than a confirmation of a commonly accepted correlation between Racism and Conservatism and Conservatism and Gun Grubbing causing the correlation between Racism and Gun Grubbing.



The notion of "symbolic racism" is the fraud and this obviously bias study is based on it. Being against welfare, opposing gun control, and disagreeing with Obama does not make one a racist.

Bill Clinton must have been a racist then for reducing those on welfare by that failed logic. Some of us on the right see implicit racism in liberals subjecting minorities to dependency via the welfare state, lowing of education standards, and ignoring and excuse making for off the chart crime rate of minorities.

Nov 01, 2013
You own a gun because you're afraid.

People own firearms in the USA because they, 1) have an Constitutional right and 2) a moral right to defend their lives and property from legal and illegal plunder.
Those who would depend upon the state to protect them soon find themselves state slaves or dead.
The state has no obligation to protect anyone. It is 'settled' law.

Nov 01, 2013
"Young Black Men Murder 14 Times More than Young White Men - over ten times that of other races and their crime rate is off the charts, and this is indicative of a failed and out of control culture." - NumenTard

NumenTard seems to be saying that there are legitimate reasons why white Conservatives cower in the corner with their gun in their hand.

They fear the coming of a black man.

Perhaps this is why so many of them would rather destroy their own country in order to get their black president out of the White House.

As a socialist, living in a socialist state, I frankly don't understand this Conservative Cowardice. I have no reason to fear black men in my country, or anyone else for that matter.

In any case NumenTard's observation that America is a cultural failure is right.

Uncle Sam is the poster child for Failure.


Nov 01, 2013
People own firearms in the USA because they, 1) have an Constitutional right

You have the constitutional right to eat your own dung too. Is that the explanation you offer for Tea-Tarders like yourself eating your own?

"a moral right to defend their lives and property from legal and illegal plunder" - RyggTard

There are no such thing as moral rights my little dung eater, just as there is no such thing as an immoral right.

Rights are rights, and they are granted by society to itself.

Nov 01, 2013
"The notion of "symbolic racism" is the fraud" - NumenTard

Imploding immigration reform is the Tea Party's next goal

http://www.kansas...link=cpy

Nov 01, 2013
Places like Chicago and D.C. have the toughest gun laws but also the highest crime rate. This fact alone exposes the incompetence of liberal anti-gun policy. A rational person would then conclude that gun laws do not reduce such crime as they don't effect criminals at all by definition, and thus cannot protect you.

The government is simply not competent to protect you. Self protection is an inalienable right, and gun ownership is a constitutional right.

Nov 01, 2013
"Those who would depend upon the state to protect them soon find themselves state slaves or dead." - RyggTard

Yes, that seems to be the way it works in Somalia and America.

Here in the socialist states, things are quite a bit different.

Here is how the Japanese prep for a trip to America.

http://www.youtub...WBjUUN3z

Nov 01, 2013
"Places like Chicago and D.C. have the toughest gun laws but also the highest crime rate. " - NumenTard

That couldn't possibly be, because guns are so common in the U.S. due to the corrupt NRA, that criminals have no trouble getting one could it?

Or are those street thugs running their own gun manufacturing companies?

It is self evident that they are... .Isn't it TardieBoy.

They just dress up in suits and call themselves honest "business men."

Nov 01, 2013
"The government is simply not competent to protect you" - NumenTard

I smell fear and cowardice coming from NumenTard.

Here in the socialist states we generally don't need to be "protected", since we have very little to fear.

So cower in the corner with your gun my little cowardly American Conservative. The world is laughing at you.

Nov 01, 2013
Young Black Men Murder 14 Times More than Young White Men - over ten times that of other races and their crime rate is off the charts, and this is indicative of a failed and out of control culture." - Numenon


Noumenon seems to be saying that there are legitimate reasons why white Conservatives cower in the corner with their gun in their hand.

They fear the coming of a black man.


You are a dishonest idiot as expected. Why do you think I "seem to saying that" when it is clear that I said it is NOT true in general,... it is a race card charge of liberals to demonize conservatives. Conservatives as Free Americans simply desire to protect their family in their own home, as a natural response to government incompetence in reducing high crime rate. Any rational person would be suspicious of those who would advocate against this.

Nov 01, 2013
Some people just can't escape from the fact that they are (below) average.

Is this why so many in Euroland persecute Jews?
So anti believes that banning weapons would have prevented short dictators with low self-esteem from rising to power in France and Germany?
Had the people of France and Germany had the will and the firepower, maybe they could have thwarted the rise of Napoleon and Hitler, or made it more difficult. Ultimately that is the real value of an armed citizenry. Tin pot tyrants and their fellow travelers have to weigh the risk of being killed during their attempt to seize power.

Nov 01, 2013
" it is a race card charge of liberals to demonize conservatives." - NumenTard

GOP precinct chair booted after racist Daily Show interview now blasts 'gutless' Republican Party

http://www.dailyk...n-Party#

Colin Powell's former chief of staff: GOP is 'full of racists'

http://www.washin...racists/

Chisago County Republican Party publishes extremely racist Facebook post

http://blogs.city...post.php


Nov 01, 2013
Bradlee Dean: Communists Invented Word 'Racism'

http://www.rightw...d-racism

Bradlee Dean: Gays Commit Half Of All Murders, Obama Is A 'Homo' And Maddow Is A 'Shim'

http://www.rightw...dow-shim

GOP Official Who Backs White Supremacist And Violent Groups Wants To Be Next Texas Attorney General

http://www.rightw...G6y.dpuf

Coulter: America Has Too Many Latinos

http://www.rightw...-latinos

Eagle Forum Assures Us That Bible's Mandate for 'Compassion' Does Not Include Immigrants

http://www.rightw...n9y.dpuf

Nov 01, 2013
" Ben Carson accused white liberal critics of racism.

"They're the most racist people there are," Carson told radio host Mark Levin on Monday. "Because they put you in a little category, a box: 'You have to think this way, how could you dare come off the plantation?'""
http://www.washin...-people/
"If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labeled a radical 60 years ago, a liberal 30 years ago and a racist today."

Thomas Sowell

Read more at http://www.brainy...HHGwh.99

Nov 01, 2013
"Is this why so many in Euroland persecute Jews?" - RyggTard

No, it is why there were so many KKKlansmen in AmeriKKKa burning crosses and persecuting Jews.

Aren't you a member, Tardieboy?

You sure smell like one.


Nov 01, 2013
The cure for racism is becoming conservative.
As soon as any minority becomes a conservative, they are no longer considered a black, brown, ....They are attacked for their ideas and skin color or gender no longer matters to 'liberals'.
Why do 'liberals' fear their minorities straying from the plantation?

Nov 01, 2013
Ben Carson accused white liberal critics of racism. "They're the most racist people there are"

Carson should come live in one of our Socialist states and get away from all that American Racism.

I would even buy him a beer.

As for you RiggieTard. Stay where you are. Your work in destroying your own country is doing the rest of the world a great service.


Nov 01, 2013
"The cure for racism is becoming conservative." - RyggTard

Colin Powell's former chief of staff: GOP is 'full of racists'

http://www.washin...racists/

Ahahahahaha... RiggTard.

You are such a buffoon.

Nov 01, 2013
"As soon as any minority becomes a conservative, they are no longer considered a black, brown" - RyggTard

I see, so According to RyggTard, racist conservatives are only racists toward black liberals, Hispanic liberals, etc.

What a Buffoon.


Nov 01, 2013
And yet the cities with highest per capita ownership of legal hand guns have the lowest crime rates including murder. I guess you are considered a "Racist" if you are a law abiding citizen.

Nov 01, 2013
As Firearm Ownership Rises, Florida Gun Murders Increasing

http://fcir.org/2...reasing/

Nov 01, 2013
Life in the Capitalist American Paradise.

Michael David Dunn didn't like the volume of music coming from the SUV parked next to him at a Jacksonville gas station. So he yelled over the bass vibrating from a boxed speaker in the back of a red Dodge Durango and told the men inside to quiet down.

"Kill him," one of the Durango's passengers responded, according to Dunn's account. Dunn, who is white, said one of the young black men in the SUV reached down for a shotgun. Dunn pulled out a 9-millimeter Taurus handgun from his glove box. He fired eight or nine times.

The bullets sliced through the rear passenger door, striking 17-year-old Jordan Davis in the chest and legs. A high school senior with plans to go into the military, Davis died before arriving at the hospital.

....

Murders by firearms have increased dramatically in the state since 2000, when there were 499 gun murders, according to data from Florida Department of Law Enforcement. Gun murders have since climbed 38 percent — with 691 murders committed with guns in 2011.


Nov 01, 2013
I would venture a guess that 90% of the gun deaths are related to gangs and or drug sales. Mexican drug cartels have invaded the US and are in total control of some areas.

A small percentage of deaths are caused by mentally ill teenage boys that have had all reality wiped from their brains by violent video games. If you want to go for "High Score" you have to go where the most defenseless people are. The combination of no mental health care facilities and violent video games is deadly.

Nov 01, 2013
Look at all the Conservative Dung-Heads denying the obvious.

Once Conservative disease is exterminated from the face of the earth, human progress will proceed without limit.


Indeed, because there are no problems with any other ideology (read made up set of convenient fictions to allay fears and promote cohesiveness and cooperation) which is a problem for human progress (however you define that)...

As far as the study goes...well it's pretty spurious at best and at worst blatantly intellectually dishonest.

You get to define your premise (someone please give me an OBJECTIVE definition of " symbolic racism), which is an opinion (racism is a made up human concept, it doesn't exist as a real entity outside human minds, it is not objective reality), and then ask questions about it in order to label people and put them in a box. Oooooh the irony...

Nov 01, 2013
People own firearms in the USA because they, 1) have an Constitutional right and 2) a moral right to defend their lives and property from legal and illegal plunder.

1) That you have the right to do something doesn't mean you have to do it.
2) If you don't realize the deep contradiction in putting the words 'moral' and 'property' in the same sentence then you haven't thought about...well...anything much at all in your life to any depth, have you?

Nov 01, 2013
1) That you have the right to do something doesn't mean you have to do it.


Yes, and? You realize the reverse is also true. That you have the right to do something doesn't mean you should refrain from doing it. I fail to see the point here, please clarify.

If you don't realize the deep contradiction in putting the words 'moral' and 'property' in the same sentence then you haven't thought about...well...anything much at all in your life to any depth, have you?


He hasn't thought the same way YOU do about YOUR life. That he doesn't do that isn't a failure on his part to be YOU.

Nov 01, 2013
words 'moral' and 'property' in the same sentence

You don't think it is moral to protect your life (property)?
Euros may not believe they own themselves since they have been subjugated for centuries to be conditioned to believe their lives (their property) belong to the state.
If you don't first own yourself, then you can't own any wealth you create.
That you have the right to do something doesn't mean you have to do it.

If rights are not exercised, they wither and are easily usurped by the state.

Nov 01, 2013
"You don't think it is moral to protect your life (property)?" - RyggTard

Of course not. A rich man murdering a starving man for stealing a loaf of bread is not a moral act.

The fact that you believe it is, shows how immoral and disgusting you Randite/Libertarians are.

You are Filth.


Nov 01, 2013
Europe only has a few years left before it's culture totally disappears. Unchecked immigration and an exploding welfare state will soon turn it into a 3rd world country.

Nov 01, 2013
Here in the socialist states we generally have no need to murder our neighbours. We don't cower in fear of our neighbours like our American Counterparts do. - VenDickare


Is that why people from your disgusting country risk their life to come to America on a floating door?

Nov 01, 2013
Of course not. A rich man murdering a starving man for stealing a loaf of bread is not a moral act.


Correction, YOU don't think it's a moral act. I don't think it's a moral act. This says nothing about whether or not it IS or ISN'T a moral act.

The fact that you believe it is, shows how immoral and disgusting you Randite/Libertarians are.


Correction. It shows they think differently than you do. This isn't a failure on their part, it simply is.

You are Filth.


Correction. He's a human being.

Nov 01, 2013
"You don't think it is moral to protect your life (property)?" - RyggTard

Of course not. A rich man murdering a starving man for stealing a loaf of bread is not a moral act. - CommieFace Vendickare



Maybe not, but if that "starving man" breaks into my home or otherwise threatens my life, rather than respectively asking for help, I will end his life with moral satisfaction.

Nov 01, 2013
Usually the 'starving man' straw man scenario is after decades of socialist tyranny where people are starving because the state has plundered all the wealth.
In a free market society, anyone who is starving would have dozens of charity organization to help, AND, dozens of employment opportunities to earn wealth to end his starving.

Nov 01, 2013
A coincidence?

"At an October 30th press briefing, Sens. Richard Blumenthal (D-CT) and Chris Murphy (D-CT) and Reps. Gwen Moore (D-WI) and Elizabeth Etsy (D-CT) called for more gun control laws, including those that would take guns from certain Americans. "
http://www.breitb...iscation

I think not.

Nov 01, 2013
"The government is simply not competent to protect you" - NumenTard

I smell fear and cowardice coming from [my superior] Noumenon - Vendicare


Your response here is one an adolescent would make. It's not about fear or cowardice when the criminal has to use a weapon or attack in a pack.

In the USA the gun control issue is, for the most part, a litmus test which signals that government has acquired too much power over individuals lives.

That is why gun rights are defended so passionately here. It is not up to the government to make decisions on behalf of free citizens. If so for gun's then what else? There are an inordinate number of things the government "could" regulate and control to save lives.

Eventually intelligent citizens begin to realize that a perfectly safe and harmless society is not worth the lose of liberty necessary to maintain it.

The greatest threat to personal liberty is the 'liberal progressive', the social engineer, and their army of statisticians.

Nov 01, 2013
You own a gun because you're afraid. And racism is driven by fear. Fear of being worth less (not worthless...but that may be part of it).
Some people just can't escape from the fact that they are (below) average. This leads to (justifiable?) low self esteem, and the only way out is to turn to "being X" (where X may be a race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, religion, affiliation with a sports team,... whetever) as a sign of their - supposed - worth/supremacy over others.

And if everything fails it's turning to "I'm stronger than you". And as they can't make that happen physically (or mentally) their only out is: buying a gun.


This is likely the case for illegal use of guns in gang and street thug mentality where the purpose of the gun is for Active confrontation. However, your comment has absolutely zero to do with Passive legal gun ownership to protect one's home.

"you haven't thought about...well...anything much at all in your life to any depth, have you?"

Nov 01, 2013
It seems in USA gun rights are framed somehow not progressive. That is a framejob by the media and has nothing to do with reality. Apparently the media cowboys's job in USA is to round up people into two camps of stupid. I can't understand what progress people can make being defenseless while their families and business are being attacked by thugs and mafia. I have found that the democratic party is not at all progressive, but simply spins opposite to the rethuglicans like a counterrotating gear. Democrats offer nothing new they are part of the same machine. For example Obamacare is nothing but Mittten's healthcare package, applied nationally. When people suffer Obama drones women and children abroad. When banksters cry Obama is Santa Claus. Now IBM is failing because Chinese don't want Americans spyware computers and are building their own. IBM depended upon China to same them, and now they will be too big to fail, needing an Obama bailout

Nov 01, 2013
Racism needs to be defined. Currently anyone who is white and does not Kiss Obama's rear end is considered a racist.

Nov 01, 2013
Just saw a news report several weeks back of a black woman stealing an old white ladies purse at a restaurant which broke the old lady arm. A bunch of men caught the black woman. The black woman stated, it was ok to steal the purse because the old white lady was rich as she was eating at a restaurant.

Nov 01, 2013
Since the majority of thugs and criminals vote and are Progressives, of course they support gun control. They know gun control means more defenseless victims.

A while ago I was talking to my son about gun control, and how Progressives hate old women and want them defenseless against thugs. I told him if I was a thug and an old lady came at me with a bat, I would take the bat and beat her with it. Only a gun would make an old lady equal to me..... shortly after I had that talk with my son, a news story came up about a thug breaking into a home of two old ladies, one old lady grabbed a bat which was taken from her by the thug who started beating her with it. The assault ended when the other old lady grabbed her gun and shot the thug.

Progressives, why do you love thugs and evil people so much that you want to make old ladies defenseless?

Nov 01, 2013
"Progressives, why do you love thugs and evil people so much that you want to make old ladies defenseless?"

The answer is simple, the progressive aim is to make everyone so dependent on the government that there can be no real dissent. Defenseless people are easy to control and enslave. The socialist ruling class live very well while the underclass starves. Why do you think that so many Soviet billionaires appeared right after the fall of Communism? Simple, they were part of the ruling system.

Nov 01, 2013
"Progressives, why do you love thugs and evil people so much that you want to make old ladies defenseless?"

The answer is simple, the progressive aim is to make everyone so dependent on the government that there can be no real dissent. Defenseless people are easy to control and enslave. The socialist ruling class live very well while the underclass starves. Why do you think that so many Soviet billionaires appeared right after the fall of Communism? Simple, they were part of the ruling system.

I reallly don't think this is a 'progressive' issue. However, if you changed 'progressive' to 'those in power', I'd tend to agree.

Nov 01, 2013
Yes, and? You realize the reverse is also true. That you have the right to do something doesn't mean you should refrain from doing it. I fail to see the point here, please clarify.

The point is that having the right is not a reason to excercise that right. Rygg argues that one SHOULD have a gun because the constutution grants one that right - that makes no sense.
You can own a gun legally in most any country (even Japan) but most people in most countries don't see the need to do so.
He hasn't thought the same way YOU do about YOUR life.

He lives in a country which has morals currently heavily influenced by christian values.
And if I remember correctly:
The founder of that religion was heavily against violence in any form whatsoever - even for self protection (and also absolutely opposed to him and his followers having personal property)

So yeah: When he conflates morals and property he's not thought that one through. He's acting exactly OPPOSITE his supposed morals.

Nov 01, 2013
What a "progressive liberal" IS, is one who believes in government planned society. Not necessarily socialists outright, but they believe that society, the environment, and economies are amendable to government design and fixes.

The problem is, is that they will make use of legitimate scientifically based statistics (albeit usually one sided) .....to justify social engineering, and people usually fall into the trap of debate about that particular issue, rather than countering that the "social ill" or "risk" in question is an acceptable one for the greater good of preserving liberty, and avoiding unintended consequences.

Liberal progressives never analyze the failure of their own agendas. If it "sounds good" at first listen without too much thought, they go with it.

They had three years to roll out ObamaCare and they couldn't even get the web site right,... so how could the rest of it possible work?!

Nov 01, 2013
"I reallly don't think this is a 'progressive' issue. However, if you changed 'progressive' to 'those in power', I'd tend to agree."

I am not excluding the Republican RHINOs from the progressive movement, AKA people in power. There are only a handful or real Republicans, true Libertarians or Tea Party Members that have any influence at all and both political parties and the progressive media does everything in their power to marginalize them. The US has never faced a threat of this magnitude before and that includes WW2 and the Cold War.

I can only hope that we are still intelligent enough, as a nation, to deserve and preserve our freedoms!

Nov 01, 2013
Anti you seem to think that most of the gun violence in the US is perpetrated by white christian males, who legally own guns, committing racial crimes. Nothing could be further from the truth. That number is miniscule in comparison to the number of guns used in a true self defense situation. Also, the self defense number is miniscule when compared to the drug/gang related shootings.

Nov 01, 2013
What a "progressive liberal" IS, is one who believes in government planned society. Not necessarily socialists outright, but they believe that society, the environment, and economies are amendable to government design and fixes.


Yes, they are socialists outright.
nflates morals and property

Individuals have a moral right to defend themselves. Maybe you missed the part where property includes your life.
You can own a gun legally in most any country

But the state decides if they think you NEED one. Just like the state can decide if you should keep your life.
, if you changed 'progressive' to 'those in power', I'd tend to agree.

'Progressives' have been in power in the US for over 100 years.

Nov 01, 2013
"Why are the horrors of Nazism so well-known and widely condemned but not those of socialism and communism?"
"socialist and communist ideas have produced the greatest evil in mankind's history. "
"Socialists, communists and their fellow travelers, such as the Wall Street occupiers supported by our president, care about the little guy in his struggle for a fair shake! They're trying to promote social justice." Let's look at some of the history of socialism and communism.

What's not appreciated is that Nazism is a form of socialism."
"Today's leftists, socialists and progressives would bristle at the suggestion that their agenda differs little from those of Nazi, Soviet and Maoist mass murderers. "
"One does not have to be in favor of death camps or wars of conquest to be a tyrant. The only requirement is that one has to believe in the primacy of the state over individual rights."
http://townhall.c...age/full

Nov 01, 2013
"The unspeakable horrors of Nazism didn't happen overnight. They were simply the end result of a long evolution of ideas leading to consolidation of power in central government in the quest for "social justice." It was decent but misguided earlier generations of Germans -- who would have cringed at the thought of genocide -- who created the Trojan horse for Hitler's ascendancy. Today's Americans are similarly accepting the massive consolidation of power in Washington in the name of social justice.

If you don't believe it, just ask yourself: Which way are we headed tiny steps at a time -- toward greater liberty or toward more government control over our lives?"
http://townhall.c...age/full
Those who refuse to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

Nov 01, 2013
"Progressives detested the bedrock principles of American government. They detested the Declaration of Independence, which enshrines the protection of individual natural rights (like property) as the unchangeable purpose of government; and they detested the Constitution, which places permanent limits on the scope of government and is structured in a way that makes the extension of national power beyond its original purpose very difficult. "Progressivism" was, for them, all about progressing, or moving beyond, the principles of our founders. "
http://www.glennb...3936/#II

Nov 01, 2013
OMG....what a crock of bullshlt this article is.

Nov 01, 2013
Another example of how socialism kills:
"More green energy trouble is brewing across the pond. UK families and businesses are being crushed under the weight of high energy costs due to rapidly rising gas prices. With 4.5 million British families facing "fuel poverty," thousands could die this winter.

Read more: http://dailycalle...jROLe4B9

Nov 01, 2013
Which article VD? The one disclosing how many were actually killed in the Communist purges or the one disclosing the hatred that the progressives have for that "Flawed Document" (per Obama) known as the US constitution. I know, the fact that rights and freedoms are granted to each person by God and not by the state is abhorrent to you.

Nov 01, 2013
Which article VD? The one disclosing how many were actually killed in the Communist purges or the one disclosing the hatred that the progressives have for that "Flawed Document" (per Obama) known as the US constitution. I know, the fact that rights and freedoms are granted to each person by God and not by the state is abhorrent to you.


VENDItardE is not the anti-American commie VendicarE, but his nemesis. I'm sure he was referring to the Phys.Org published propaganda.

Nov 01, 2013
Tribalism. Internal altruism in conjunction with animosity toward outsiders. The next tribe over is always a little less human than yours. And what is the greatest proponent of the 'us vs them' mindset? RELIGION.

Gangs are an example of tribalism. Gang members tend to be religious. They also tend to be well-armed, and live by their own rules. They will tend to prey on outsiders and rival gangs because they perceive them to be a little less worthy than they.

What is the most famous gang in history? The Israelites. Thou shalt not kill except for rival gang members; amalakites, philistines, unbelievers, apostates, those who comingle with Üntermenschen, etc. You get the picture.

MS13 are the chosen people. Ask them. The overwhelming majority of inmates are deeply religious. They didn't regard their crimes against outsiders as crimes. Stealing from other tribes is not a crime. Ask Joshua.

Nov 01, 2013
progressives have been in power in the US for over 100 years
Yes and during that time we have become the greatest, most prosperous, and most powerful nation that ever was. Thanks for pointing that out ryggy.

Nov 01, 2013
progressives have been in power in the US for over 100 years
Yes and during that time we have become the greatest, most prosperous, and most powerful nation that ever was. Thanks for pointing that out ryggy.

Not because of socialism.
If not for the Federal Reserve and the 'progressives', would the Great Depression have occurred? Not likely.
Had the US stayed out of WWI, no thanks to the 'progressive' Wilson, would WWII have occurred?
Had the US not attacked Spain to begin its Empire, would US soldiers died in the Philippines? (But then then the Colt .45 auto may not have been needed.)
The US is great because of the principles documented in the Declaration of Independence, not because of 'progressive' violations of the US Constitution.
Let's not forget the great 'progressive' power grab that resulted from the Volstead Act.

Nov 01, 2013
"Is that why people from your disgusting country risk their life to come to America on a floating door?" - NumenTard

It is a pity that you are not free enough to visit Cuba. How sad for you that America wasn't able to destroy the Cuban nation.

Awwwwwww.....

In any case, It was pure comedy to see Castro empty his prisons and send the convicts to America where they belong.

Man... I love that guy.

Nov 01, 2013
"Maybe not, but if that "starving man" breaks into my home or otherwise threatens my life, " - NumenTard

But that wasn't what RyggTard said. He said that he had a "moral right" to protect his property.

Normal, thinking, moral people see the phrase "moral right" as corrupt since morality is orthogonal to a person's state given rights.

Nov 01, 2013
" YOU don't think it's a moral act. I don't think it's a moral act." - MysticalTard

But RyggTard believes that murder is his "moral right".

He is sick in the head.


Nov 02, 2013
So the author is anti-gun. Sounds desperate when you start calling opposing views "racist". But then again, that's what liberals do.

Nov 02, 2013
as mother always said....the animals are fed first and never equate education with intelligence... http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/10/some-very-poorly-done-research-racism-gun-ownership-and-gun-control-biased-attitudes-in-us-whites-may-influence-policy-decisions/?fb_action_ids=10151951291288514&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%2210151951291288514%22%3A576447672402770%7D&action_type_map=%7B%2210151951291288514%22%3A%22og.likes%22%7D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

Nov 02, 2013
@VendicarE Normal, thinking, moral people see the phrase "moral right" as corrupt since morality is orthogonal to a person's state given rights.
The state can't give rights, but only delete them. Of course "moral right" refers to an invisible skyfairy pulling strings and involving itself in human affairs for amusement. "Human rights" is more exact. Few states recognize human rights. For example US government denies people their rights to speech and privacy, and human dignity is under attack with homo security massaging children's genitals at airports as part of a larger conditioning program. Because who pulls the state's strings? Corporate interests

Nov 02, 2013
"Is that why people from your disgusting country risk their life to come to America on a floating door?" - NumenTard

It is a pity that you are not free enough to visit Cuba. How sad for you that America wasn't able to destroy the Cuban nation.
...It was pure comedy to see Castro empty his prisons and send the convicts to America where they belong.


The USA uses your dirty country as a prison at will. "Convicts" in the eyes of Castro usually means political opposition and advocates for freedom, so yes the USA has gladly welcomed many Cubans, as often times those people understand the importance of freedom and liberty more so than Americans themselves who have taken it for granted because they were born into it.

And WhyTF would I ever want to visit Cuba? Most CUBANS don't even want to visit Cuba.

It seems I have guessed right that you're Cuban. You must have been to embarrassed to admit it when I asked previously. Your anti-American rants then become all the more comedic.

Nov 02, 2013
There are no jews in Jerusalem, only arabs.

Nov 02, 2013
Conservatism is a form of nationalism, which was the real evil in national socialism.


Nov 02, 2013
How sad for you that America wasn't able to destroy the Cuban nation. - Vendicartard


It wouldn't have been an achievement of much merit,..... not like in destroying the Soviet nation.

Nov 02, 2013
Conservatism is a form of nationalism, which was the real evil in national socialism.



Wrong. Every nation must support some measure of nationalism to maintain its sovereignty. It's that aspect of national socialism that advocates absolute government control as was the case with the NAZI's, .... which is fundamentally Counter to modern American Conservatism and Libertarianism. All the NAZI's did was to take the previous german socialist government to it natural conclusion, unhindered by moral consciousness.

Nov 02, 2013
would the great depression have occurred?
Of course. The economic cycles of growth, decay, collapse, and rebirth are inevitable given the human propensity to overpopulate.

The depression followed the greatest technological expansion in history. The industrial revolution enabled pops to grow faster and live longer than ever before. The biggest collapse and the worst wars were unavoidable.

Would they have happened differently without socialism? Socialism is the natural response to your free markets. During the decline phase of a cycle capitalists begin colluding to prey upon workers and consumers. Families begin to starve. People revolt.

But the grand artifice of communism is another creature entirely. It is a martial law dictatorship hiding behind socialism. It has nothing to do with peoples rights.

Communism/fascism. Two sides/one coin. The people were divided and set against one another in very Manageable and Contructive ways. The Result? Nukes, space travel, iPads, peace.

Nov 02, 2013
Conservatism is a form of nationalism, which was the real evil in national socialism.



Wrong. Every nation must support some measure of nationalism to maintain its sovereignty. It's that aspect of national socialism that advocates absolute government control as was the case with the NAZI's, .... which is fundamentally Counter to modern American Conservatism and Libertarianism. All the NAZI's did was to take the previous german socialist government to it natural conclusion, unhindered by moral consciousness.
Conservatives do nothing but start more wars and keep USA in a perpetual state of emergency since WWII. How the fuck is that not "absolute government control?"

Don't start with the libertarian lie that they're against all wars. They're advocating conflict over resources, which is the root of all wars.That's why Somalia is a libertarian paradise and the world's toxic waste dumping ground

Nov 02, 2013
"Conservatives do nothing but start more wars and keep USA in a perpetual state of emergency since WWII."

Before you make statements like that you have better bone up on American History that has not been rewritten by the progressive establishment. Here is a small hint-------Lincoln was a Republican and the Civil Rights Acts of the 60s were passed by Republicans over the objections of Southern Democrats. The US entered the Korean war under a Democrat. Vietnam was started under Eisenhower with a few advisers but hugely escalated under Kennedy and Johnson. It was ended under Nixon. Yes, Bush is responsible for Afghanistan and Iraq.

Nov 02, 2013
Oh yea, After Bush 1 defeated Iraq 1 he was spouting something about a "New World Order" !!!!
Does that sound "Progressive" to you?????????????????????

Nov 02, 2013
Yes, Bush is responsible for Afghanistan and Iraq.


But, many prominent democrats, including Clinton (Bill and Hillary), Kerry, Pelosi, Al Gore, Albright, Ted Kennedy, Graham, Rockefeller, etc, believed Saddam to have been a potential threat with WMD's.

I'd say Saddam was responsible as he failed to respect UN resolutions, and post 9/11 it was no longer possible to trust a dictator that had gassed 5,000 people to death.

I'd say also that the Taliban and Al-Quida was responsible for Afghanistan war. Not possible to do nothing in response to an concerted attack.

Nov 02, 2013

Wrong. Every nation must support some measure of nationalism to maintain its sovereignty.


Nationalism is about saying "we on our side of the fence are more important/better than those 'other' people, on the 'other' side of the imaginary fence", and then building lots of weapons until inevitable war. It feeds on fear, it feeds on paranoia from both sides of the fence, which is the most perpetually stupid relationship between racist nationalists the world over.

Why do we need to maintain that? We live in an evermore connected world now, people travel a lot more than ever and the lines are increasingly blurring when it comes to deciding whether someone is a national or not.

Embrace this unstoppable force and banish nationalism to the history books before it starts another fight.

Nov 02, 2013
We live in an evermore connected world now, people travel a lot more than ever and the lines are increasingly blurring
-Are they?

"A day after US drone strike killed Hakimullah Mehsud, Pakistani #Taliban 'elect new chief' Khan Syed Mehsud. The Taliban have vowed to take "unprecedented" revenge for the attack."

"The Muslim Brotherhood - a master plan for establishing Caliphate and Sharia in Europe..."

-Throughout the history of our civilization, each generation has felt that it was finally rational enough, educated enough, pious enough, egalitarian enough, to finally be beyond the need to fight war. But then along came an enemy that it absolutely HAD to fight. Why is that?

There are still cultures to be destroyed in this world. Cultures which will most assuredly destroy us if we do not destroy them. Nationalism is an extension of tribalism, an innate biological urge. It is a useful Tool in Planning and Executing wars at the Proper time and in the Proper place.

Nov 02, 2013
the lines are increasingly blurring when it comes to deciding whether someone is a national or not
It is easy to tell who is on the other side. They are the ones invading your allies, burning your embassies, blowing up your airplanes or flying them into your buildings. Pacifists want you to feel guilty for objecting to this and trying to stop it.

In russia the pacifists were inundated during the revolution, most of them shipped off to gulag. In nanking they were bayonetted and burned. In cambodia you could find mounds of them in rice paddies.

Nov 02, 2013
Conservatism is a form of nationalism, which was the real evil in national socialism.


The real evil of any socialism is state control over property rights.

'Conservative' is a relative term and what the conservatives in the USA want to conserve is the spirit and intent of those who started the nation as documented in the Constitution.
"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
Socialists of any flavor do NOT believe that humans have inherent rights from a Creator and that the state derives its power from the people. Socialists believe rights are not inherent and are granted by the state, for the benefit of the state, not the people.
The nationalism of the US conservatives is document in the Constitution, the Declaration, the Federalist Papers, .....

Nov 02, 2013
Why do we need to maintain that? We live in an evermore connected world now,

Do you lock the door of your house?
If not, what is your address so anyone and just hang out and crash?

A nation is borders, language and culture. And when a nation, because of its culture, is prosperous, creates wealth. and protects those within its borders, why shouldn't they protect what they have built from nations or cultures that are less prosperous because they would rather plunder the wealth of others?

Nov 02, 2013
banish nationalism

"Iran's Revolutionary Guards committed to 'Death to America'"
http://www.ynetne...,00.html
How do you plan to banish Iran? Start here first.

Nov 02, 2013
The Taliban have vowed to take "unprecedented" revenge for the attack."


Prime example of how it is never going to end through violence, violence feeds violence until the only option is more violence.
Useless.

Nov 02, 2013
"Left-wing activists and officials within President Barack Obama's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), part of Attorney General Eric Holder's Department of Justice (DOJ), attempted this week to reframe Operation Fast and Furious as a problem with America's gun laws."
http://www.breitb...-problem
This was the intent of the program from the beginning.
BHO needs ANOTHER diversion from the Fast and Furious scandal that killed a border patrol agent and dozens of Mexican citizens, IRS, Benghazi, NSA, Obamacare, .....

Nov 02, 2013
The Taliban have vowed to take "unprecedented" revenge for the attack."


Prime example of how it is never going to end through violence, violence feeds violence until the only option is more violence.
Useless.

How will submitting to Taliban tyranny, or Mao's tyranny, or HItler's tyranny or Stalin's tyranny or Pol Pot's tyranny or BHO's tyranny stop violence?

Nov 02, 2013
Lead by example, open up, understand where eachother is coming from, invest in health education and research, defense should mean defense, follow the golden rule of Confucius.

Nov 02, 2013
The Taliban have vowed to take "unprecedented" revenge for the attack."


Prime example of how it is never going to end through violence, violence feeds violence until the only option is more violence.
Useless.

"China vows to silence Dalai Lama in Tibet"
http://www.france...ma-tibet
Tibet should submit to tyranny to prevent more violence, right joe?

Nov 02, 2013
Lead by example, open up, understand where eachother is coming from, invest in health education and research, defense should mean defense, follow the golden rule of Confucius.

But defense may require VIOLENCE!
So joe agrees with the Reagan doctrine. Build up the largest, most power military force in the world so that no one could attack. And if they tried, they would be squashed like a bug.

Nov 02, 2013
If your are a socialist, you believe this:
"So third graders are learning:
-it is the President's job to make everything fair
-the people must obey the commands of government officials
-the individual's wants are less important than the nation's well-being.
Read more at http://minutemenn...tUYR.99"
This is the new 3rd grade civics indoctrination.

Nov 02, 2013

-the individual's wants are less important than the nation's well-being.


Do you even know what you are? What makes you want? Or are you the mindless consumer they want you to be?

Nov 02, 2013
"In the 1973 near-classic sci-fi film "Soylent Green," the year is 2022 and everything the left has always wished for has come to fruition. In this society, The Few control The Many, assisted suicide is all the rage, and The Many are reassured by their townhouse-living technocrat overlords that the bulldozers dispersing their free speech and the soylent green that feeds them is all… for the greater good."
"After all, in the film, the planet is overpopulated and warming -- you know, just like today! So of course a few must be sacrificed to serve the many -- and of course the only ones qualified to choose who "the losers" should be are the cold-hearted technocrats who also happen to be Obama's favorites."
http://www.breitb...liberals

Nov 02, 2013
Nationalism is about saying "we on our side of the fence are more important/better than those 'other' people, on the 'other' side of the imaginary fence", and then building lots of weapons until inevitable war.


You are very naive to suggest that borders are artificial, to the point of being intellectually irresponsible. Borders evolved for substantive and natural reasons.

Obviously it would be absurd if you thought the neighbor down the street was more important/better than your own family, such that you let him enter your home and take/use your stuff at will.

Nov 02, 2013
What makes you want?

A desire to see that every individual has the opportunity to pursue their happiness. No one can guarantee they will be happy, but a limited govt that protects individual rights won't crush that opportunity.

Nov 02, 2013
@ryggie a limited govt that protects individual rights won't crush that opportunity.
Unfortunately a limited government can't protect individual rights. Only a government with teeth and claws can do so

Nov 02, 2013
@ryggie a limited govt that protects individual rights won't crush that opportunity.
Unfortunately a limited government can't protect individual rights. Only a government with teeth and claws can do so

A govt that is LIMITED to ONLY protecting individuals rights can.
Govt by definition is violence and limited violence may be needed to defend individual's rights.
And don't forget, the individual has the right to defend his rights to life, liberty and property from anyone, including a tyrannical state.

Nov 02, 2013
Lead by example, open up, understand where eachother is coming from, invest in health education and research, defense should mean defense, follow the golden rule of Confucius.


Of course this assumes that other countries and cultures are as rational and willing to give in, as yours. It is easy to play pie-in-the-sky theoretical fantasy, but it takes effort to consider actual reality.

Nov 02, 2013
Defense means there is no intent to attack, violence is attacking with intent.

And the borders were imagined in the mind of man at one time, even if they are real now, we can imagine them away too.


Nov 02, 2013
Defense means there is no intent to attack, violence is the attacking with intent

Such a defense is pretty useless if a potential attacker knows the victim won't use violence to defend himself.
If we build nuclear weapons, but we are not prepared to use them then they should not be built.
Iraq invaded Kuwait, with violence, because Saddam didn't believe anyone would use violence to drive him out.
Criminals are attracted to gun free zones as they know only they will be armed.

Nov 02, 2013
"Iran's Revolutionary Guards committed to 'Death to America'"
This is why Iran does not fear the US. BHO has the same objective.

Nov 02, 2013
Ok ok, nationalism can stay. But know that nationalism does nothing to help one empathise with people from another country, while being 'free' to purchase fossil fuel based and chemical based products that have terrible effects on cultures in other parts of the world.

Nov 02, 2013
nationalism does nothing to help one empathise with people from another country,

So?
Most people in the USA, even during the height of the cold war, held little animosity toward the people under the hammer and sickle of the USSR.
I met a Bataan death march survivor Ben Steele at WSMR a few weeks ago. Here is his story:
http://www.artmon.../steele/
He reported that while teaching after the war he had a Japanese student. He then realized how much hatred he had, justifiably so, toward Japan, but not toward its people, who we later found out were victims of their state as well.
People in the US, soldiers who fought and watched their friend die at the hands of Germans, Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Afghans, Iraqis, ... do understand that these people were and are victims of their regimes.

Nov 02, 2013
"This "study" is an unbelievable fraud" - NumenTard

Of course NumenTard offers no evidence of Fraud.

I consider this "study" to be nothing more than a confirmation of a commonly accepted correlation between Racism and Conservatism and Conservatism and Gun Grubbing causing the correlation between Racism and Gun Grubbing.


Nov 02, 2013
@ryggie a limited govt that protects individual rights won't crush that opportunity.
Unfortunately a limited government can't protect individual rights. Only a government with teeth and claws can do so

A govt that is LIMITED to ONLY protecting individuals rights can.
Govt by definition is violence and limited violence may be needed to defend individual's rights.
Sorry Ryggie that makes no fucking sense. You either protect Walmart workers or Walmart owners. It cannot go both ways. The minimum amount of violence would be to eliminate the latter. I don't think most people are demanding that happen. No, instead violence is inflicted upon the workers. Violence of ripping apart families, discouraging representation and education, and encouraging dependance on government welfare

Nov 02, 2013
You either protect Walmart workers or Walmart owners. It cannot go both ways.

That is the socialist perspective.
violence is inflicted upon the workers.

Not by Wal Mart.
Wal Mart provides opportunities for those who work there, negotiates aggressively with suppliers so they can sell products at a low price which benefits the customers. No violence. No one is forced to work there. No one is forced to buy their products.
If you are complaining that there are few options for workers, blame govts for regulations that kill businesses, like Obamacare.
DC demanded Wal Mart pay workers an excessive wage, so Wal Mart declined to open so no one could earn any wages from Wal Mart. DC would rather have welfare dependents than productive workers. Wal Mart shrugged as Rand described in Atlas Shrugged.

Nov 02, 2013
You either protect Walmart workers or Walmart owners. It cannot go both ways.

That is the socialist perspective.
No, that's life. You should get one
violence is inflicted upon the workers.

Not by Wal Mart.
Wal Mart provides opportunities for those who work there, negotiates aggressively with suppliers so they can sell products at a low price which benefits the customers. No violence. No one is forced to work there. No one is forced to buy their products.
You are inferring that the workers don't need to eat or seek shelter? Exactly how much brain damage does being a rabid randite require?

Nov 02, 2013
"What the labor Republicans share is a respect for work. "Work for able-bodied adults is not a necessary evil," Lee said, "but an essential pathway to personal happiness." A labor Republican opposes the Senate immigration bill not only because it's a bureaucratic monstrosity, but also because an influx of cheap labor would decrease low-skilled wages. A labor Republican is well disposed to cuts in the payroll tax rate, or to an expanded child tax credit, because he thinks the GOP ought to do something for married couples with children. A labor Republican is not reluctant to embrace proposals to reduce the size and power of the Wall Street banks. Nor is he reluctant to discuss the social and cultural background—disintegrating families, radical abortion laws, legitimation of drugs and pornography—to economic malaise."
http://www.weekly...679.html
koch can't defend his socialism either.

Nov 02, 2013
workers don't need to eat or seek shelter?

What is limiting the opportunities for these workers to find better paying jobs?
One is a Regulatory State that crushes entrepreneurs, manufacturers, coal mining, oil production, ...
Another is a socialist state that forces some workers to join unions that use their dues to bribe more socialists into office.
A business like Home Depot could not be launched under the current Regulatory regime.
The socialist Regulatory state needs poorly paid workers dependent upon state's welfare so they will keep voting more socialists into office. Which is why amnesty is needed to create more dependent voters.

Nov 02, 2013
@ joe:
"Above all else, public officials must show that they are responsible for managing the public's business and safeguarding the public trust through their actions, not simply by their words. Indeed, in the absence of personal and collective responsibility, there can be no democracy, no real freedom, and no pursuit of happiness. So whoever may "win" next Tuesday, in the spirit and deeper meaning of Dr. Frankl's vision of a "Statue of Responsibility," they must honor their responsibilities to what should be considered a noble calling by transcending self-interest and seeking common ground in the name of the public interest. Failure to do so is not and should not be an option!"
http://www.huffin...735.html
The rub here is 'public interest'. Socialists claim to know what is in the best interest of the public, whether they want it or not. Which is different than the public's interest.
Has BHO not blamed others for his failures?

Nov 02, 2013
It never ends with violence...Violence feeds violence
Yah nice religionist sentiment. It most often ENDS when one side obliterates the other and destroys the CULTURE which causes the problem in the first place.

The French and russian revolutions destroyed monarchies. The US civil war destroyed the obsolete southern slave culture. WW2 destroyed Nazism and imperial japan.

Those cultures are dead. They needed to be killed as they would not have died by themselves. And this usually involves killing vast numbers of people who refuse to give them up and will fight to the death to preserve them.

Obsolete, virulent religionist cultures DESIGNED for reproductive aggression now threaten the species. 'Warfare of the cradle' as Teddy Roosevelt called it. Do you think family planning and Starbucks franchises will convince them to change their minds?

Children are a gift unto Allah. And they will not have their kids twerking like Miley Cyrus even if it does reduce the birthrate.

Nov 03, 2013
VendicarE said

I would say not cravenly wanting the tools to murder your neighbours is pretty good evidence that you don't want to murder your neighbours.

Here in the socialist states we generally have no need to murder our neighbours. We don't cower in fear of our neighbours like our American Counterparts do.


V-
people like you are a wet dream for terrorists, criminals and tyrants.

i dont WANT to murder my neighbors, i NEED a firearm to protect myself. period. from idiots and criminals (no 911 where i live), from animals like bears, coyote, feral dogs, wild pig, etc. it is NOT a choice, as most of the aggressors i listed above do NOT respond to cheap talk or pleas for leniency. In fact, it actually inflames the situation.

i am NOT a tea-tard. i am NOT a democrat or republican. i am at times conservative, and at times liberal. i am TYPICAL. especially for where i live.

more to come...

Nov 03, 2013
more...

i am also NOT a racist. i dont give two Sh*ts about race, gender, creed, social standing, sexual orientation, sock colour or anything else. as long as you dont try to impose YOUR beliefs on me, i really dont care one whit! so... calling me a RACIST because i oppose gun control, live in a southern state and dont like my gov't screwing with my constitution is pretty much proof enough to me that something in the study is hinkey... in fact, it is racist!

just because YOU believe that we shouldn't have the right or the ability to protect ourselves, does not mean that WE believe it, or should have to live by it. just because you dont mind being a target, and you are a sheep willingly led to slaughter, does not mean that we all are. Some of us actually care about family, self and others and are willing to protect them.

gun control is about CONTROL, of people, of power and of situations, not about safety, or stopping crime, or anything else you might dream up. and no gov't can protect all its citizens. it is not feasible unless you deputize every OTHER citizen and then make people walk around in pairs.

Nov 03, 2013
"people like you are a wet dream for terrorists, criminals and tyrants. " - StumpyTard

And yet there is no terrorism or tyranny in my country. Criminality is also reasonably low.

You see, Crime is largely a result of poverty and as socialism reduced poverty it also reduces crime.

"i dont WANT to murder my neighbors, i NEED a firearm to protect myself." - Stumpytard

You NEED a gun to protect yourself from your neighbors.

Here in the socialist states we don't cower in fear over what our neighbors do, or can do.

You see, in civil societies, there is relative trust among the community of it's citizens.

That is why America is such a failure. Americans cower in fear.

Nov 03, 2013
"This "study" is an unbelievable fraud" - NumenTard

Of course NumenTard offers no evidence of Fraud.

I consider this "study" to be nothing more than a confirmation of a commonly accepted correlation between Racism and Conservatism and Conservatism and Gun Grubbing causing the correlation between Racism and Gun Grubbing.


Nov 03, 2013
"This "study" is an unbelievable fraud" - NumenTard

Of course NumenTard offers no evidence of Fraud.


The notion of 'gun control laws' itself has had a long history of racist motivation, so it is not surprising that obviously political bias cranks would continue to use that propaganda tactic.

The notion of "symbolic racism" is itself defined at will by the corrupt idiots assembling the propaganda. If you disagree with Obama in the USA you're suspected of being a racist. It is slander, propaganda, and intellectual corruption at the highest order.

Here is how it works; 1) Find some common identification of those who are opposed to your agenda. 2) Find a means of demonizing them to supplant their reasoning with your own slander, so that your potential supporters receive the ad hominem slander and not the original rationale 3) Wrap a "study" around it, so that bias idiots publish it for you.

Nov 03, 2013
Here in the socialist states we don't cower in fear over what our neighbors do, or can do.

[...]

That is why America is such a failure. Americans cower in fear.


Is that why no one wants to visit your smelly country , but clamour instead into the USA?

Nov 03, 2013
How is it possible to get the masses to go along with the expulsion, persecution, and eventual slaughter of Jews in 1930's Germany?

Goebbels knew; ......a slow trickle of propaganda carefully designed for maximum demonization of your victim, complete with "studies", ...."scientifically demonstrating" various defects to assemble into a caricature and spoon feed to the doltish masses.

Nevermind that the decision of performing such a study in the first place, exposes all of this, and at minimum such a bias choice renders the study prejudicial, and unscientific in the extreme.

Nov 03, 2013
....:

Like the slow minute hand on a clock, people never notice it actually changing, .... nor their minds being conditioned by the propaganda machine.

All that matters is the rationale given directly by those who support gun ownership,.. not what their opposition would rather you to think is the rationale.

Once you understand this difference, you won't be a victim of propaganda, like the 'tard bot VendicarE, but instead will mature as an independent thinker. Impressionable young minds of mush are particularily susceptible to propaganda because its so much easier to be spoon fed than to activily feed yourself through independent and honest analysis of both orignal points of view.

Nov 03, 2013
"Is that why no one wants to visit your smelly country , but clamour instead into the USA?" - NumenTard

Americans are visiting Cuba in record numbers despite strict travel restrictions, joining the hundreds of thousands of Cuban Americans who travel home each year, according to Cuban government figures published on Friday.

Just over 98,000 U.S. citizens visited Cuba in 2012, up from 73,500 in 2011 and twice the number compared with five years ago, according to an online report by the National Statistics Office

The numbers do not include more than 350,000 Cuban Americans estimated by travel agents and U.S. diplomats to have visited the island last year. Because Cuba considers them nationals, they are not listed in its tourism statistics.

U.S. citizens are barred from traveling to Cuba without government permission under a U.S. trade embargo imposed half a century ago that can only be lifted by Congress.

Poor NumenTard. No one is immigrating to his fantasy Republican home world..

Nov 03, 2013
i am also NOT a racist.

Capt., when 'liberals' call you racist, they are acknowledging they have no rational response.

Nov 03, 2013
"All that matters is the rationale given directly by those who support gun ownership" - NumenTard

Meanwhile in the rest of the world, all that matters is a good life, happy, healthy children and the sustainable maintenance of a robust, clean, biosphere that makes it all possible.

That is how NumenTard and Conservatives in general differ from rational people.

Nov 03, 2013
"when 'liberals' call you racist" - Ryggtard

then you are most probably a racist.

When Republicans call their own party racist, then you are assured that it is racist.

Colin Powell's former chief of staff: GOP is 'full of racists'

http://www.washin...racists/


Nov 03, 2013
"Cuba will carry out free-market policies in its second largest island, as a test, in a bid to increase national food production, official media reported Wednesday."
"Thanks to the economic reforms launched in July 2008, as much as 70 percent of the country's agricultural land is operated by cooperatives and farmers who lease the land from the government." {Sounds like a feudal system.}
http://www.global...ELxAUZRw

Nov 03, 2013
Americans are visiting Cuba in record numbers despite strict travel restrictions, joining the hundreds of thousands of Cuban Americans who travel home each year, according to Cuban government figures published on Friday.

Just over 98,000 U.S. citizens visited Cuba in 2012, up from 73,500 in 2011 and twice the number compared with five years ago, according to an online report by the National Statistics Office


The only American citizens visiting Cuba are extended family members of other Cubans born in the USA, who's parents and grand parents had escaped from that wretched country and now wish to visit relatves with their kids,.... and paid personnel of Guantanamo Bay detention camp, USA Naval base personnel, and the prisoners brought their by force.

Is it embarrassing having an American Navel base on your island?

Nov 03, 2013
This new way to measure racism is kinda interesting. I read what symbolic racism is. Using this method anyone and everyone is a racist. That makes this study a fraud. The point of Americans having guns is to protect yourself from criminals and an opressive government. There is no justice or acceptability in me having to protect myself from a person breaking into my home with a butcher knife. Even if the person breaking in only has such a knife. I need to have the security of dealing with that criminal from a distance. Police cannot provide this service. You will be dead by the time they get there if you have the time to call them at all. There is a saying many people use. "You will have to pry my gun from my cold dead hands." I actually believe. "They will be prying your orders to collect my guns from your cold dead hands."
p.s. a guns is a gun is a gun is a gun. Attempting to outlaw an type or design is nothing more than a step to outlawing them all.

Nov 03, 2013
"All that matters is the rationale given directly by those who support gun ownership" - NumenTard

Meanwhile in the rest of the world, all that matters is a good life, happy, healthy children and the sustainable maintenance of a robust, clean, biosphere that makes it all possible.

That is how NumenTard and Conservatives in general differ from rational people.


So, after suckling on the teat of the propaganda machine, you conclude that conservatives desire a poor unhappy life, unhealthy children, and a sustainable dirty biosphere? You're a poster boy for victimhood at the hands of corrupt debate.

Nov 03, 2013
A good life, happy healthy offspring,....sounds like pets or kept animals in a zoo.

"Most of the credit, however, must go to capitalism and free trade, for they enable economies to grow—and it was growth, principally, that has eased destitution.

Poverty rates started to collapse towards the end of the 20th century largely because developing-country growth accelerated, from an average annual rate of 4.3% in 1960-2000 to 6% in 2000-10. "
http://www.econom...ould-aim

Nov 03, 2013
There is no justice or acceptability in me having to protect myself from a person breaking into my home with a butcher knife. Even if the person breaking in only has such a knife.


Exactly correct. You as an innocent victim are entitled to have the upper-hand against the intruder.

A 'progressive liberal' government presumes the role of decision making on your behalf, but it is not for your individual benefit, but for the benefit of idealistical collectivism. Through a disinterested, often bias, and potentially flawed homogeneous statistical analysis, they thus 'generalize' the individual, counter to his nature, because he must act egoistically as such.

Nov 03, 2013
"Abe Lincoln may have freed all men, but Sam Colt made them equal."
One would think egalitarian 'liberals' would appreciate how a firearm can put a 100kg thug and a 45kg woman at the same level of defense.
But this is assumes 'liberals' are truly interested in individual equality. What 'liberals' really want is every individual to be equally subservient and defenseless to the state they control.

Nov 03, 2013
pets or kept animals in a zoo
Yah ryggy demands the right (for others) to suffer and die as this is freedom as well. We are domesticated animals ryggy. We don't do well in the wild. We will do much better when your religions stop mass-producing us like puppy mills.

Stray cats and dogs are always a problem yes? Not enough farms for all the mousers.

Nov 03, 2013
"The principle of the ideological struggle with communism — that the power of the state was an inherent danger from which the individual must be protected — is being lost to memory. Government is always the custodian of virtue now, holding out against the wicked, self-serving forces of profit and private interests. It is as if we have learnt nothing from the history of the 20th century about which values and beliefs actually delivered a life that was worth living — and how much vigilance is required to preserve them. "
http://www.telegr...dom.html

Nov 03, 2013
@Anti, why rights, especially the right to keep and bear arms, must be exercised is to continuously test the true intentions of the state.
Maybe Germans don't mind the state spying on them, and it seems many Americans don't mind either. Until, one day, they find out the state will use that to take more liberty.
This is great line from a great movie, Demolition Man:
"You see, according to *Cacteau's* plan. *I'm* the enemy. Because I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, freedom of choice. I'm the kind if guy who would sit in the greasy spoon and think "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the big rack of Barbecued spare ribs with the side order of gravy fries?" I *want* high cholesterol. I want to eat bacon, butter and buckets of cheese alright? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinatti in a non-smoking section. I wanna run around naked with green jell-o all over my body reading a Playboy magazine. "

Nov 03, 2013
VendicarE-
You NEED a gun to protect yourself from your neighbors.blah bah blah Americans cower in fear


first: i dont NEED it for my NEIGHBORS, i need it for criminals and wild animals. there is more trust in my community then in yours, i guarantee it.

second: Americans dont "cower" behind anyone. i sure dont. i dont expect anyone to sweep in and "save the day" as this is unrealistic... in fact, in my area, it is not even possible. the cops dont come here. when they do have to come way out here, they travel in packs.

Nov 03, 2013
VendicarE-
now... about the rest... just because you dont see it does not mean that it does not exist. i dont believe there is ANY country not affected by terrorism. i have lived in more than a few, from Europe to Asia to Africa and South America... and they ALL had it, on some level or another. Terrorism is not just radical muslims running around killing people with car-bombs. Sometimes, it is the state that is the terrorist.

if your community is so safe, i give you this challenge. put up a large sign in your yard, keep it there for at least a month- 30 days; it must say "my property is unarmed, and unlocked, and i will not resist anyone" ... then unlock all your doors and keep your valuables in the open. do this for a month then get back to me. if you dont have a crime in all that time, i will reconsider.

my house does not even have locks on the doors. does yours?

ONE mans UTOPIA is another mans HELL

Nov 03, 2013
"All that matters is the rationale given directly by those who support gun ownership" - NumenTard

Meanwhile in the rest of the world, all that matters is a good life, happy, healthy children and the sustainable maintenance of a robust, clean, biosphere that makes it all possible.

That is how NumenTard and Conservatives in general differ from rational people.


So, after suckling on the teat of the propaganda machine, you conclude that conservatives desire a poor unhappy life, unhealthy children, and a sustainable dirty biosphere? You're a poster boy for victimhood at the hands of corrupt debate.

Exactly, Mr. Austerity Man

Nov 03, 2013
especially the right to keep and bear arms, must be exercised is to continuously test the true intentions of the state.

I disagree. That is what a FREE press and an informed citizenship (along with a true choice of political parties) is for.

Maybe Germans don't mind the state spying on them

We mind. And we kick their asses when they do. There's still quite a few people who remember the Stasi. I would have hoped that other countries would have learned from that example. But I guess it looks like this is something everyone must experience for themselves to believe it.

Because I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, freedom of choice.

Exactly. Now if you think the US media (down to the history books) aren't heavily edited you're just fooling yourself. I'd advise you to travel a bit. You'll quickly find out that the things you think you know about the world don't mesh with reality.

Nov 03, 2013
That is what a FREE press and an informed citizenship

The state co-ops the press and controls the indoctrination in state schools.

But in Germany, it is against the law to home school and free speech is heavily regulated when it comes to your history. Why are Germans afraid of national socialism, your 'N' word?
I have traveled and worked for Oerlikon Contraves and met a few Germans. I was surprised how anti-Jew they were.

US media (down to the history books) aren't heavily edited

EVERY media, not just the US.
We see this with the IPCC reports on climate.

Nov 03, 2013
Now if you think the US media (down to the history books) aren't heavily edited you're just fooling yourself. I'd advise you to travel a bit. You'll quickly find out that the things you think you know about the world don't mesh with reality.


THIS i totally agree with... i grew up overseas during the cold war, and spent most of my life living around the world. everyone should have a similar experience as it gives perspective.

I disagree. That is what a FREE press and an informed citizenship (along with a true choice of political parties) is for.


THIS i DONT agree with. IMHO- no matter HOW free the press is, if the state does not fear the public, or consider the public a force to be reckoned with, then the state will continuously move to subdue and subjugate the public. without at least the CHOICE to stand and fight for your belief, then there is no HOPE, and little chance for change, if ANY.

Nov 03, 2013
especially the right to keep and bear arms, must be exercised is to continuously test the true intentions of the state.


I disagree. That is what a FREE press and an informed citizenship (along with a true choice of political parties) is for.


It is what the Constitution IS for, to protect rights, so of course those rights should be continuously exercised and defended. The media itself is too corrupt and bias for this purpose.

The litmus test for out of control government encroachment, is not in the easy cases where everyone is likely to agree, ....but especially in those cases where some may find the free speech egregious or the gun ownership unnecessary. This is why gun rights are defended so vigorously in the USA, not necessarily because everyone wants a gun; I don't have one nor want one myself at this point.

Nov 03, 2013
everyone should have a similar experience as it gives perspective.

A former colleague worked in Nigeria for a time and witnessed kids pulling tapeworms out of their mouths.
He thought his kids should have an opportunity to witness such conditions.


Nov 03, 2013
Can't have too much liberty in Cuba or the people might get ideas.

"HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuba closed dozens of home-based movie theaters on Saturday and reaffirmed its plans to end the private sale of imported goods as communist authorities pressed for "order, discipline and obedience" in the growing small business sector."
"The import ban has created a fury among entrepreneurs and the public who have tired of buying high priced and low quality clothing from state-run establishments."
http://ca.news.ya...tor.html


Nov 03, 2013
" in Canada the British Columbia "Human Rights" Tribunal has just fined a stand-up comic, Guy Earle, $15,000 for the crime of "offending" lesbians at a comedy club. They were drunk and were heckling him, and he unburdened himself of some putdowns. But they were homophobic putdowns, and so he must be punished."
"For the crime of giving offense is in the eye of the offended. A "multicultural" society needs not sensitivity training but insensitivity training — that's to say, thicker skins. The alternative is what is happening in some of the oldest free societies on earth: a state ever more comfortable in regulating the citizenry's speech, thoughts, and jokes. There's a word for that, and it isn't "diversity"."
http://www.nation...rk-steyn

Nov 03, 2013
Hi Noumenon. :-)
Places like Chicago and D.C. have the toughest gun laws but also the highest crime rate. This fact alone exposes the incompetence of liberal anti-gun policy. A rational person would then conclude that gun laws do not reduce such crime as they don't effect criminals at all by definition, and thus cannot protect you. The government is simply not competent to protect you. Self protection is an inalienable right, and gun ownership is a constitutional right.


You're "reaching" a bit , aren't you, mate? It could be the other way: the gun laws are tougher there BECAUSE the crime rate is higher? And those laws are undermined by other states ALLOWING such guns which then come across those precincts' borders. Yes? :-)

Other countries like Australia etc don't have that "gun ownership" fixation as "inalienable constitutional right". So your example only applies to USA, not universally. Yes? :-)

Nov 03, 2013
Hi again, Noumenon. :-)
Here in the socialist states we generally have no need to murder our neighbours. We don't cower in fear of our neighbours like our American Counterparts do.


It is only because you are all being robbed by your government equally, and are all forced to be equally poor and pathetic. When the Nazi's came to power, the crime rate plumeted too. This is a fact.

Mate, it's getting to be a bad habit with you now, biased interpretation of observations/history.

Not every country has a 'mentality' of seeing themselves as under siege or attack at 'drop of a hat' by his countryman. Paranoia is not universal, but all GUN makers and sellers want and try to make it universal if they could.

And your exemplar Nazis BECAME THE criminal gang MONOPOLY; merely displacing, not stopping crime. Remember, they killed millions for political/religious beliefs. They stole/appropriated from millions. They ran a 'protection racket'. etc etc. Get real, mate! :-)

Nov 03, 2013
but all GUN makers and sellers want and try to make it universal if they could.

I don't think so.
Australia etc don't have that "gun ownership" fixation as "inalienable constitutional right".


American colonists rebelled, fought and beat Great Britain earning the right to decide for themselves how to govern themselves.
Australia was a penal colony and only recently were granted complete independence by GB.

Nov 03, 2013
Had the people of France and Germany had the will and the firepower, maybe they could have thwarted the rise of Napoleon and Hitler, or made it more difficult. Ultimately that is the real value of an armed citizenry. Tin pot tyrants and their fellow travelers have to weigh the risk of being killed during their attempt to seize power.


It was the hesitation born of not wanting to become the monster themselves that stayed their hand long enough for THE monster to attain power. That and despair of poor masses suffering the burden from WWI defeat/reparations. So it wasn't a question of not having arms, but a question of:

- reasonable opponents not wanting to resort to violence, and trusting to the political system (then perverted by the Nazis and supporters of money and prestige); and of

- poor/desperate masses being ripe for religious/class/nationalist hatred propaganda while kept in the dark of the real events/reasons (murder, pillage and power-madness etc).

Get real.

Nov 03, 2013
If the American colonies had not rebelled, would Great Britain have needed to colonize Australia?
Since Australia was colonized, partly in response to successful US rebellion, I suspect the GB govt was going to treat this colony a bit differently lest they face another humiliating defeat.

Nov 03, 2013
not wanting to become the monster themselves

Why would they fear using force to liberate themselves?
Socialism exploits two faults in many humans, both are related to responsibility.
Some don't want to be responsible and are willing to submit to the will of others and let them be responsible, even if they are not responsible, like BHO.
The other group may be like those 'not wanting to be monsters themselves' but are more than willing to allow tyrants to do their dirty work for them so they don't have to be responsible, but still get what they want.

Nov 03, 2013
Hi Modern Mystic. :-)
He's a human being.
hmmm. Your reply to VendicarE brings up an interesting series of questions:

- Is a corporation predicated on commercialism and profit motive embodying what it means to be a "human being"?

- Is a corporation executive predicated on making profit from making/selling guns acting/thinking as a "human being"?

- Is any shill posting here with the motive of propaganda against gun control laws motivated by his "humanity" or the profit motive?

I leave it to each "human being" posting here to ponder those questions raised by that extremely interesting answer of yours, modernmystic. Thanks for it. :-)

Nov 03, 2013
Don't think so
You don't think so? An opinion only. The same NRA and shills for the US/other gun makers/sellers are busy in Australia trying to spread hatred and fear and paranoia from the NRA/corporate propaganda 'playbook'. Your opinion is trumped by direct observation to the contrary in reality here 'on the ground'.
American colonists rebelled, fought and beat Great Britain earning the right to decide for themselves how to govern themselves. Australia was a penal colony and only recently were granted complete independence by GB.
What has that to do with internal matters AS 'one country', citizen-to-citizen/society relationships? No 'armed citizens' NOW will stop another nation from invading/conquering on the grand scale. Only a permanent, organized, well-equipped (long reach/heavy weaponry etc) STANDING NATIONAL MILITARY capacity has any hope. The armed citizenry' would be picked off/mopped up from long range in no time. Even French army/defenses didn't last long.

Nov 03, 2013
If the American colonies had not rebelled, would Great Britain have needed to colonize Australia?
Since Australia was colonized, partly in response to successful US rebellion, I suspect the GB govt was going to treat this colony a bit differently lest they face another humiliating defeat.

At the time British were in competition with the Napoleonic French exploration/mapping of Terra Australis coast etc. The fate of US colony had no part to play. The British and French were in a long war already, and competing long before the US colony's fate was being settled by war (history/documents reveal that war was preventable but communication delays let matters go beyond retrieval before compromise could be implemented). Read up the full history, especially relating to the last-minute offers/communications etc that did not reach in time.

Nov 03, 2013
You don't think so? An opinion only.

So? That's all you provided, opinion.
The armed citizenry' would be picked off/mopped up from long range in no time.

The French underground, among many others, gave the NAZIs quite a hard time.
It seems John Marsden doesn't agree that an armed citizenry couldn't fight back.

Nov 03, 2013
Why would they fear using force to liberate themselves?
Not 'fear'. They were in a democracy at the time. They trusted it would work. Too late. The Nazi propaganda and brownshirts etc quickly made 'democracy' null and void because those honorable men in charge of the military did not see the monster in time, and trusted in political process to the end (wanting to avoid the bloodshed which they still remembered from the earlier external/internal violence/conflicts which wasted life and treasure but solved nothing (as WWI especially proved after The Kaiser was defeated).

They just didn't have the stomach to add to the violence, and trusted their political democracy until it was stolen from the people by murder, propaganda and extortion. They acted too late to save their democracy, simply because they did not want to be the monster.

Similar to why Chamberlain tried to 'placate' Hitler/Nazis, believing Hitler would keep their word. Britain didn't want to be the monster then either.

Nov 03, 2013
"NSW police commissioner Andrew Scipione explained: "There is no single source of gun violence... guns have fallen into the hands of organized crime, outlaw motorcycle gangs, mid-level crime groups and petty thieves and the lines are often blurred.""
http://www.breitb...-Control
The excuse cities like Chicago and DC give about high gun crime rates is it is so easy to get firearms across the border.
Australia is a island continent with strict gun laws and still can't control criminal use of firearms.

Nov 03, 2013
So? That's all you provided, opinion.
Seems you missed this in support of my statement:
The same NRA and shills for the US/other gun makers/sellers are busy in Australia trying to spread hatred and fear and paranoia from the NRA/corporate propaganda 'playbook'. Your opinion is trumped by direct observation to the contrary in reality here 'on the ground'.
Observed fact, not just my 'opinion'. Yes?
The French underground, among many others, gave the NAZIs quite a hard time.
Seems your reading/knowledge of modern history is not up to scratch for purposes of your opinions on its real contents/events. If it wasn't for the British Special Operations Executive supplying intelligence, manpower and special arms and 'communications/escape/rescue' means etc, there WAS no effective 'French Resistance' capability to speak of at all. Only nuisance value without considerable EXTERNAL assist. It would have led nowhere without EXTERNAL plan for ALLIED INVASION to LIBERATE France. :-)

Nov 03, 2013
They trusted it would work.

Hitler was quite popular. His party, the NSDAP won 18% of the vote in 1930 and 37% in 1932.
http://www.spiege...634.html
"But even the slick and sophisticated techniques behind the creation of the Führer Myth would have been ineffective, had not fertile terrain been prepared long before Hitler became Reich Chancellor. Expectations of national salvation were by 1933 widespread, not just among Nazi supporters, and had already become vested in the person of Hitler. By the time that he took power, over 13 million voters had at least partially swallowed the Führer cult,"
"In the early years of the Third Reich, most people sensed that after the dismal years of hopelessness there was new direction, energy, and dynamism. There was a widespread feeling that finally a government was doing something to get Germany back on her feet."
http://www.spiege...over-the

Nov 03, 2013
"NSW police commissioner Andrew Scipione explained: "There is no single source of gun violence... guns have fallen into the hands of organized crime, outlaw motorcycle gangs, mid-level crime groups and petty thieves and the lines are often blurred.""
http://www.breitb...-Control
The excuse cities like Chicago and DC give about high gun crime rates is it is so easy to get firearms across the border.
Australia is a island continent with strict gun laws and still can't control criminal use of firearms.


The guns are smuggled into Australia. That is what happens. That is the point.
The more guns, the more gun-related incidents have arisen.
Making more and more powerful/automatic guns 'legally available' would only exacerbate the problem.
The reasonable course is minimization, education/culture; exposing the NRA/corporate shill/propaganda purveying fear, hatred and paranoia.

Nov 03, 2013
Observed fact, not just my 'opinion'. Yes?

No. Still, just your opinion.
They trusted it would work.

"At the grass roots, the growth of the Führer cult meant that Hitler could detach himself from policy areas which were unpopular and exploit immense reserves of personal support practically at will." {Sounds WAAY too familiear}
http://www.spiege...9-4.html

Nov 03, 2013
Hitler was quite popular. His party, the NSDAP won 18% of the vote in 1930 and 37% in 1932.
http://www.spiege...634.html
"But even the slick and sophisticated techniques behind the creation of the Führer Myth would have been ineffective, had not fertile terrain been prepared long before Hitler became Reich Chancellor. Expectations of national salvation were by 1933 widespread, not just among Nazi supporters, and had already become vested in the person of Hitler. By the time that he took power, over 13 million voters had at least partially swallowed the Führer cult,"
"In the early years of the Third Reich, most people sensed that after the dismal years of hopelessness there was new direction, energy, and dynamism. There was a widespread feeling that finally a government was doing something to get Germany back on her feet."

Didn't I just point out that? The WWI consequences, despair and propaganda and willingness to trust to the political (even if Furher cult involved)? Thanks. :)

Nov 03, 2013
The guns are smuggled into Australia.

So now it's the fault of the world?
The world must ban firearms to keep guns from criminals in Australia?
When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns is quite true.
Since firearms bans don't stop criminals and only keep the non-criminals defenseless, the real objective of such bans is not public safety but public control. Even in benevolent Australia.

Nov 03, 2013
No. Still, just your opinion.
So local observations of the NRA/corporate involvement in Australia propaganda activities etc is irrelevant to you? Ok. Have it your way, mate.
"At the grass roots, the growth of the F�Ľhrer cult meant that Hitler could detach himself from policy areas which were unpopular and exploit immense reserves of personal support practically at will." {Sounds WAAY too familiear}
Yes, I again just got through describing both method and the motives for exactly all that. How many times do you wish to just repeat/confirm what I have been pointing out to you? :-)

Nov 03, 2013
Only nuisance value without considerable EXTERNAL assist.
But they were still WILLING to fight back, like so many resistance groups in history.

Nov 03, 2013
So local observations of the NRA/corporate involvement in Australia propaganda activities etc is irrelevant to you?


Free speech is not allowed in Australia?
Your observations of the impact of NRA activities is still our opinion.
And it is not irrelevant. Why shouldn't Australian citizens have the right to defend themselves?

Nov 03, 2013
So now it's the fault of the world?
The world must ban firearms to keep guns from criminals in Australia?
When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns is quite true.
Since firearms bans don't stop criminals and only keep the non-criminals defenseless, the real objective of such bans is not public safety but public control. Even in benevolent Australia.
How 'glib' of you to trivialize it. Are you genuine, or just argumentative/shill for rationalizing away realities?

Can't you see the point being made? It doesn't matter who or how it happens, the point is it does happen that guns cross borders/precincts. Hence your and others' facile connection of stricter laws with higher crime is BOGUS. Especially when it could be the other way round, like I said, that tougher laws are BECAUSE of more guns WHICH may come across from ANYWHERE that guns are legally PROLIFERATED because of fear, paranoia and hatreds engendered by NRA/Corporate propaganda/influence. Get genuine, mate. :)

Nov 03, 2013
Sorry, ryggesogn2, but it seems your rationalizations and excuses make you blind to the real tragedy of the problem and its profit-motive 'players' propagating such rationalizations as you have been trying out on us. We are not ignorant or dumb like those poor unfortunates kept in the dark and fed bullshite propaganda so that some power/profit motivated corporations, NRA/individual shills and assorted crazies driven to fear, hatred and paranoia by those same "free speechers" perverting the meaning of that term for their own dangerous and tragic power/profit/political intents. Good bye, mate. I haven't any more time to spend on such. Good luck in being a "human being". :-)

Nov 04, 2013
the point is it does happen that guns cross borders/precincts.

Yep.
tougher laws are BECAUSE of more guns


But NOT for public safety but for public control.
Australians don't mind being sheep, I guess.

Nov 04, 2013
australians don't mind being sheep, I guess.


did you invent the gun? did you contribute to the technology in any way? oh, your too drunk on power to remember like all the other sheep sorry for asking.

Nov 04, 2013
Where "After accounting for numerous other factors ..." is the mechanism used to achieve the desired study outcome: white racists are afraid of the black man. So sad this bogus "study" had to be published.

Nov 04, 2013
"first: i dont NEED it for my NEIGHBORS, i need it for criminals and wild animals." - StumpyTard

America must be overrun by criminals and wild animals.

Never have I NEEDED to murder a criminal or a wild animal. In fact, I welcome Wild animals to my property.

Why do you think that America is overrun by Criminals? You have 3 million of them in your GULAG system already.

How man more Americans do you feel need to be imprisoned or murdered to keep you safe?


Nov 04, 2013
"Cuba closed dozens of home-based movie theaters on Saturday and reaffirmed its plans to end the private sale of imported goods as communist authorities pressed for "order, discipline and obedience" - RyggTard

Meanwhile in Neo-Nazi America...

At least 54 abortion providers across 27 states have shut down or ended their abortion services in the past three years, and several more clinics are only still open because judges have temporarily blocked legislation that would make it difficult for them to continue to operate.

More than 50 abortion clinics across the country have closed or stopped offering the procedure since a heavy wave of Republican legislative attacks on providers began in 2010

http://www.huffin...529.html

Nov 04, 2013
"All that matters is the rationale given directly by those who support gun ownership" - NumenTard

Meanwhile in the rest of the world, all that matters is a good life, happy, healthy children and the sustainable maintenance of a robust, clean, biosphere that makes it all possible.

That is how NumenTard and Conservatives in general differ from rational people.


Nov 04, 2013
"This "study" is an unbelievable fraud" - NumenTard

Of course NumenTard offers no evidence of Fraud.

I consider this "study" to be nothing more than a confirmation of a commonly accepted correlation between Racism and Conservatism and Conservatism and Gun Grubbing causing the correlation between Racism and Gun Grubbing.


Nov 04, 2013
The point is that having the right is not a reason to excercise that right. Rygg argues that one SHOULD have a gun because the constutution grants one that right - that makes no sense.


It makes no sense to you. Beyond that I don't know what you're saying. It is a different value set than yours. Why is this an issue for you?

You can own a gun legally in most any country (even Japan) but most people in most countries don't see the need to do so.


Yes, cultures around the world do things differently...so what?

He lives in a country which has morals currently heavily influenced by christian values.


Yours was too at one point and still is to some degree...what's your point? People are individuals, they are not their culture.

So yeah: When he conflates morals and property he's not thought that one through.


Again that's just your opinion, and your reasoning is extremely thin to say the least. AFAICS is a litany of non-sequitirs and subjectivity.

Nov 04, 2013
VendicarE
America must be overrun blah blah blah to keep you safe?


There are still wild places in america. Where i am, there are MANY wild animals that you cannot reason with. Bears and Mountain Lions dont give a Sh*t about your politics. you dont have Bears kicking down your door for easy food.
as for criminals. criminals are opportunistic. if they see someone in a remote location that the cops do not go to, they think they can get away with something... being armed insures that i can safely protect my life, and the lives of my family and grandchildren. There is no NEED to kill, only a CHOICE that i CAN PROTECT MY FAMILY. just because i have a firearm does not mean i have to KILL. i have used it before without firing a shot.

the 2nd amendment is not about killing everyone, it is about having the CHOICE to DEFEND YOURSELF. just because you are weak and you dont mind letting others destroy all that you love doesn't mean that i am the same way.

Nov 04, 2013
VendicarE

i see that you are not taking my challenge? perhaps you are afraid? you are the real coward. you would force others to live as you do, regardless of their circumstances, in the belief that your way of life is better than, or superior to, anyone else's. What makes you think it is so? because YOU personally think you are safe? in america, circa 1776 we had similar circumstances... being governed by people who were unaware of reality. we kicked them out.

perhaps your "utopia" is not as safe as you would have others believe. if you want to convince me that your was is better than mine, either you must come live in MY area or you must PROVE to me that it is better by meeting my challenge. but you will not, because it will invite folly into your world, and you would be a victim of crime. i REFUSE to be a victim. THAT is why i support owning firearms.

I don't even close MY back door...

Nov 04, 2013
VendicarE

CHOICE is what the Constitution is all about... CHOICE. the CHOICE to live life YOUR OWN WAY without people forcing you to believe their way... the choice to LIVE.

you wish to take away that CHOICE because YOU DONT have a choice. you believe your way is better than our way. your way may work where you live because your people are subdued by your gov't. this is a cultural difference between us, you actually CANNOT understand how i live. i can understand that because i have lived around the world and seen how others lived.

your issue is that you ASSUME that there is no crime where you live. you are WRONG. you just dont SEE it. if there were NO CRIME, you would not have police officers. period. but you do... why does your country have a military? or police? if your country is so idyllic? because there are outliers... there are people who DONT obey the law and wish to take what others have. this is common in ALL cultures. i have the CHOICE of an EFFECTIVE defense. you don't.

Nov 04, 2013
I've no doubt you'll always be granted a licence and you won't be affected, you can own guns in the UK too with a licence so don't think people wanna take your guns away. It just makes sense to treat weapons responsibly and carry out periodical license renewals, to provide good data for people to try and stop the flow of illegal weapons and reduce crime.
Gun crime in the UK is negligible and I assure you that's something worth striving for.

Nov 04, 2013
RealityCheck said: the point is it does happen that guns cross borders/precincts.

ryggesogn2 replied: Yep.
RealityCheck said: tougher laws are BECAUSE of more guns


ryggesogn2 replied: But NOT for public safety but for public control.
Australians don't mind being sheep, I guess.


What was that you were saying about 'opinions' then, mate? :-)

In my case I have local news to back me up with observations on the ground; whereas you just made a completely subjective assessment as to the reason for for the tougher laws.

Look to your motives, both personal and political and mercenary, mate! Good luck with that introspection, ryggesogn2, if ever you attempt it. :-)

Nov 04, 2013
Why do Progressives hate old ladies? Why do Progressives want to protect thugs?
I told my son a week before this story came about that if I wanted to harm an old lady, and she was armed with a baseball bat or a knife, I would take the knife or bat and use it against her. The only thing that would scare me in an old ladies hand would be a gun...... week later this story: http://www.thebla...oves-it/

We both laughed..... and I ask again, why do progressives protect thugs and hate old ladies?

Nov 04, 2013
Hi Captn Stumpy. :-) There is NO intention of making it 'criminal', or to remove guns from, those with legitimate (like yours) reasons/needs. But to identify/implement a RANGE of reasonable measures to minimize UNNECESSARY proliferation of UNNECESSARILY dangerous guns. Question your comments raise in my mind:
- Do you live in a place populated by reasonable folk, or in a jungle where 'dog eats dog'?
- Who/How many need automatic/assault weapons in town with police force?
- If certain laws didn't 'criminalize' (rather than 'medicalize/educalize/culturalize/minimalize strategies) drug addiction etc, would there be all those 'criminals' threatening you and clogging up your prison/justice system and wasting anti-terrorism/criminal resources etc?
- Are economic/political policies predicated on 'dog eat dog' "values" (depend on 'tips' for anywhere decent survival income; degrade people, criminalizing their medical, mental, poverty etc problems) better than giving dignity/fair wages etc? :-)

Nov 04, 2013
Who/How many need automatic/assault weapons in town with police force?
We've seen law and order break down a number of times during natural disasters, riots, blackouts, terrorist attack, etc. We can expect situations such as this to increase.

The only weapon appropriate against a gang of looters or carloads of gang bangers or a pack of wild dogs, is an autoload long gun of intermediate caliber or above with replaceable hi-cap mags; ie an assault rifle. Something that can hit multiple targets quickly from a safe distance and shoot through car doors.
But to identify/implement a RANGE of reasonable measures to minimize UNNECESSARY proliferation of UNNECESSARILY dangerous guns
We already restrict full-auto, silencers, sawed-off shotguns, grenades, RPGs, etc. Which means the only people who have them are the cartels.

Your concerns have already been addressed. And so have ours.

Nov 04, 2013
"This "study" is an unbelievable fraud" - NumenTard

Of course NumenTard offers no evidence of Fraud.

I consider this "study" to be nothing more than a confirmation of a commonly accepted correlation between Racism and Conservatism and Conservatism and Gun Grubbing causing the correlation between Racism and Gun Grubbing.

Nov 05, 2013
Hi TheGhostofOtto1923. Thanks for your genuine & polite response. :-)
Your concerns have already been addressed. And so have ours.
I'm not so sanguine as you are about that, mate. For instance, your 'take' on natural disasters etc would have every household hold rapid-load and high lethality/range weapons? Scary! Must be pretty terrible society that creates such fear/likely of gangs, terrorists and assorted crazies roaming the streets waiting for the lights to go out etc. Does it reflect the policies I mentioned? Where society/economics is currently predicated on 'dog eat dog' mentality at its roots? Might decent support mechanisms fostering dignity and social cohesion (ie, living wage; medical/poverty safety net with dignity; decriminalizing/addressing properly social issues like addiction, mental illness; not demonizing/discriminating as a political/racial ploy; go for highest common denominator instead of the lowest etc) help make your society less scary? Cheers! :-)

Nov 05, 2013
RealityCheck
Hmmm... let me start by answering questions and asking as well. When you say "police force", you mean multiple members of law enforcement, correct? In the nearest town to me, there is only three police officers. There has been no real need for more, unless they have to come out where i live, as the area is very wild still.
the issue is complicated, and you have valid points, however, we are constitutionally guaranteed to be allowed to own firearms. Now, YOU make a designation between them and say, why do you need (insert weapon here)? that is NOT the issue... the issue of gun control is CONTROL.

now...about owning weapons. Gun control advocates want regulations, and all this other crap... we already have regulations and all that other crap! As Otto said, we cannot own just anything. Again, we come back to CONTROL. a criminal, by definition, does not obey the law, so passing laws only affects law abiding citizens.

Nov 05, 2013
RealityCheck
identify/implement a RANGE of reasonable measures to minimize UNNECESSARY proliferation of UNNECESSARILY dangerous guns


a gun is an inanimate object. it is a TOOL. you cannot assign morality to tools, only to actions. and actions come from humans. period. i am more dangerous with a knife than you are with a gun. But i have also used a gun without discharging it. does that make it a dangerous weapon? no, it makes ME one, but not the tool. There is a meme: If guns kill people, then spoons make people fat, cars make people drive drunk... etc... you get the point. this is actually absolutely TRUE. it is not the tool, it is the user. What the issue SHOULD be is how to correct the violence problem, NOT how to control guns. Controlling guns only creates more victims, as they are no longer able to defend themselves with the same tools that the criminals WILL use. Passing gun control laws does not affect violence, it only affects the ability to defend yourself.

Nov 05, 2013
RealityCheck
- Who/How many need automatic/assault weapons in town with police force?


depends on where you live. in my woods, they can mean the difference between life and death.

If certain laws didn't 'criminalize' ... clogging up your prison/justice system and wasting anti-terrorism/criminal resources etc?


probably not.

- Are economic/political policies ...better than giving dignity/fair wages etc?


Laws and economic / political policies should have SOME basis on/in reality. Gun Control is NOT reality based. it is based upon the OPINIONS of wealthy, well protected urbanites who whish to dictate to others how to live. rich people with armed security guards and their own private police force in gated communities do NOT know or understand the violence that can be found in the inner city, or in the wild woods.

Nov 05, 2013
RealityCheck
- Do you live in a place populated by reasonable folk, or in a jungle where 'dog eats dog'?


i thought it was obvious. i have 4 neighbors, good people. no one closer than 2 miles. Where i live is mostly wild. the transient population is either hunters or poachers. Mostly poachers. Poachers are criminals. they are NOT reasonable. they are known to use VIOLENCE whenever it suits them. i also see a LOT of wild animals: from Bear and Mountain Lion, to skunk and feral pets. It is dog-eat-dog here MOST of the time. Animals dont understand reason or logic, and most poachers and criminals i have dealt here with are no better. they all only understand the ability and willingness to commit violence in defense, nothing else.

Nov 05, 2013
RealityCheck
about your reply to Otto... i dont know how he feels, but i would like to weigh in on it. our society does not CREATE the fear, it only recognizes the possibility of such things happening in reality, as we HAVE SEEN and noted that such things have ALREADY happened! in New Orleans, cops and military kicked down doors and (essentially) stole law abiding citizens weapons, leaving them defenseless against looters and criminals. REALITY.

reality is that criminals are out there. reality is that some people are opportunistic and will become criminals if the situations present themselves and they feel the risk is worth it. changing the cultural/political values only applies to those willing to listen and change. Criminals, do NOT obey laws, and operate OUTSIDE cultural values, it BECOMES their culture. THIS is REALITY. what you suggest will only work if forced upon everyone in some genetic/mechanical means. is it moral to force your viewpoint on someone who does not want it?

Nov 05, 2013
RealityCheck

continued from last post... and should you decide that it is in the best interest to breed out aggression or violence, or to add mechanical adaptations that will not allow people to become criminal... who, then, takes charge and then dictates to the masses what reality should be? who then takes the reigns and leads? who determines the parameters of what SHOULD be? who makes the decisions of what will be allowed? Musllims? Christians? Athiest? the Rich? the politically powerful? are you willing to lose your loved ones because they are no onger relevant to society, or because it is the whim of the ruling elite?

who is to say any ONE way is the RIGHT way. situations differ. there are a dozen answers to every question... there is never any RIGHT answer. Life is not the same as the SAT's. Gun Control is about control. it will NOT have ANY effect on criminals

Nov 05, 2013
How stupid are Conservative Gun Grubbers?

This stupid....

An apparent hunt for Bigfoot in the woods of Oklahoma went wrong after a man reportedly heard a "barking noise," turned around and shot his friend in the back, police say.

One of the men told authorities they were hunting for the mythical beast in the woods of Rogers County Saturday night.

---

Captian Stumpy needs a gun to protect himself against wild animals like Bigfoot.

And to murder his neighbours of course...

Ahahahahahhahahaha.... Morons.....


Nov 05, 2013
I've no doubt you'll always be granted a licence and you won't be affected, you can own guns in the UK too with a licence


Prove it.
Where is the data?

Nov 05, 2013
"While the poll continues, so far over 80 percent of the 11,000+ respondents have told the Telegraph that they want to see the handgun ban repealed. "
http://www.thecom...uns_back
A 'ban' means NOT allowed.

Nov 05, 2013
VendicarE
Captian Stumpy needs a gun to protect himself against wild animals like Bigfoot.
And to murder his neighbours of course...


absolutely fascinating. in his/her failure to logically dispute and the sure knowledge that his/her argument is total malarkey, VendicarE has taken instead to calling names and vilification.

by all means, V, show us how intelligent you are. so far, you are doing poorly. i have been called MUCH worse, and that person actually had the courage to stand and call me names to my face, unlike you! so... by all means, get creative! i look forward to seeing what you have! this should be fun!

P.S. I don't believe in bigfoot...

Nov 05, 2013

Prove it.
Where is the data?


http://en.wikiped..._Kingdom ..you would have found this if you briefly read the comments on your own link.
Some of my friends have guns too, they're visited by an inspector once a year for a check up, hardly a big deal is it? I've been told it works that way in new zealand too.


Nov 05, 2013
Republican Racism goes back to the origin of the party, with George Washington's slave ownership and his rape of child slave Sally Hemings.

Sad that few Americans know that George Washington was a slave owner and pedophile.

http://www.nytime...tml?_r=0


Nov 05, 2013
VD you lie just like Obama, often, blatantly and viciously,
Obama lying about lying: http://dailycalle...romises/
How about Obama lying about Benghazi:http://www.washin...log.html
How many people actually believe Obama did not know about Fast and Furious, the DOJ going after reporters who didn't toe the Democrats lines, or the IRS going after and hindering Conservative groups, or how HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius solicited donations from companies HHS might regulate, or how the Obama administration funded and promoted its poster boy for green energy despite warning signs the company was headed for bankruptcy, ? Oh yea he doesn't lie, He is just the worst informed President -EVER-

Nov 05, 2013
"VD you lie just like Obama" - FreeTard

It is historical fact that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. In fact he was one of the largest slave owners in Washington.

And it is also common knowledge, confirmed by genetic testing that Thomas Jefferson fathered children with Sally Hemings when she was a child.

In 1787, Sally Hemings, at the age of 14,[2] accompanied Jefferson's youngest daughter Mary (Polly) to London and then to Paris, where the widowed Jefferson was serving as the United States Ambassador to France. Hemings spent two years there. Hemings and Jefferson are believed to have begun a sexual relationship either in France or soon after their return to Monticello. Hemings had six children of record born into slavery; four survived to adulthood and were noted for their resemblance to Jefferson.[3] Sally Hemings remained a domestic servant in Jefferson's house until his death.

http://en.wikiped..._Hemings

Nov 06, 2013
Some of my friends have guns too,

Don't knop much about 'guns' do you joe?
"Can I own a handgun?
Handguns are banned in England. This applies to any firearm with an overall length of less than 30 cm. However muzzle-loading handguns are per"
http://content.me...singfaqs

Nov 06, 2013
Historians have written for years about the treatment of some of the slaves at Monticello for years. And also there are many contradictions - at least on the surface - between the opinion that Jefferson conveyed in his writings against slavery, and the fact that his home was indeed an estate who's operation was dependent on the backs of many slave laborers. But no one, can truly know what Jefferson's personal thoughts and feelings were with regards to anything - let alone the issue of slavery. All one can do is take the man's writings - his own words - and try to glean some sort of insight into what he likely believed and thought about a given subject. Taken in that context, I believe it's historically accurate to say that Jefferson fought against slavery his entire life. From the original draft of the declaration of independence to his support of the elimination of slavery in the Western Territories.

Nov 06, 2013