Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, formulated by the theoretical physicist in 1927, is one of the cornerstones of quantum mechanics. In its most familiar form, it says that it is impossible to measure anything without disturbing it. For instance, any attempt to measure a particle's position must randomly change its speed.
The principle has bedeviled quantum physicists for nearly a century, until recently, when researchers at the University of Toronto demonstrated the ability to directly measure the disturbance and confirm that Heisenberg was too pessimistic.
"We designed an apparatus to measure a property – the polarization – of a single photon. We then needed to measure how much that apparatus disturbed that photon," says Lee Rozema, a Ph.D. candidate in Professor Aephraim Steinberg's quantum optics research group at U of T, and lead author of a study published this week in Physical Review Letters.
"To do this, we would need to measure the photon before the apparatus but that measurement would also disturb the photon," Rozema says.
In order to overcome this hurdle, Rozema and his colleagues employed a technique known as weak measurement wherein the action of a measuring device is weak enough to have an imperceptible impact on what is being measured. Before each photon was sent to the measurement apparatus, the researchers measured it weakly and then measured it again afterwards, comparing the results. They found that the disturbance induced by the measurement is less than Heisenberg's precision-disturbance relation would require.
"Each shot only gave us a tiny bit of information about the disturbance, but by repeating the experiment many times we were able to get a very good idea about how much the photon was disturbed," says Rozema.
The findings build on recent challenges to Heisenberg's principle by scientists the world over. Nagoya University physicist Masanao Ozawa suggested in 2003 that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle does not apply to measurement, but could only suggest an indirect way to confirm his predictions. A validation of the sort he proposed was carried out last year by Yuji Hasegawa's group at the Vienna University of Technology. In 2010, Griffith University scientists Austin Lund and Howard Wiseman showed that weak measurements could be used to characterize the process of measuring a quantum system. However, there were still hurdles to clear as their idea effectively required a small quantum computer, which is difficult to build.
"In the past, we have worked experimentally both on implementing weak measurements, and using a technique called 'cluster state quantum computing' to simplify building quantum computers. The combination of these two ideas led to the realization that there was a way to implement Lund and Wiseman's ideas in the lab," says Rozema.
It is often assumed that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle applies to both the intrinsic uncertainty that a quantum system must possess, as well as to measurements. These results show that this is not the case and demonstrate the degree of precision that can be achieved with weak-measurement techniques.
"The results force us to adjust our view of exactly what limits quantum mechanics places on measurement," says Rozema. "These limits are important to fundamental quantum mechanics and also central in developing 'quantum cryptography' technology, which relies on the uncertainty principle to guarantee that any eavesdropper would be detected due to the disturbance caused by her measurements."
"The quantum world is still full of uncertainty, but at least our attempts to look at it don't have to add as much uncertainty as we used to think!"
Explore further:
Are you certain, Mr. Heisenberg? New measurements deepen understanding of quantum uncertainty
More information:
The findings are reported in the paper "Violation of Heisenberg's Measurement-Disturbance Relationship by Weak Measurements". prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v109/i10/e100404
ArtflDgr
They just said its imperceptible… so how did they perceive it? do they know what these words mean? They are wrong… all they did was shrink the uncertainty down till it seems to go away… but if you scale the view, and get down there, and could sit on the particle, you would find that within the size of the perturbations, its unpredictable… ie. when you use more energy, the size of the zone of perturbation is larger and so more unpredictable. When you use less energy, the zone of perturbation is smaller and so you can see the general in it more easily. But in BOTH cases. Given a point target to strike… both would miss the target equal times, but be clustered near it inversely to the power…
Deathclock
HTK
Sep 07, 2012El_Nose
I understood what was stated maybe you got confused.
HUP = Heisenberg's uncertainty principle
1) weak measurement -- should not change the photon
2) normal measurement -- HUP says this will greatly change the photon
3) weak measurement -- should not change the photon
delta(3,1)= change created by 2 small change from 3
if the results from 1 and 3 are almost identical then 2 did not do much change. That was the experiment. If each tradiditonal measurement is changing the particle then a measurement before and after that do not change the particle should be able to measure the change that the traditional measurement makes on the photon.
that is pretty straight forward.
Eikka
Non-sequitur.
They could be existing in multiple particular places at the same time with some probability, or not completely in any one particular place.
hemitite
panorama
I see what you did there.
hemitite
antonima
indio007
Quantum Entanglement of Very High Angular Momenta
"Furthermore, the OAM degree of freedom can
be used to increase the difference in the quantum number between entangled photon pairs (19),
such that before any measurement took place both photons can carry different, arbitrarily high
values of OAM. As soon as the OAM value of one photon is measured, the amount of OAM
carried by the other photon is instantaneously well-defined no matter how big the difference of
the two possible angular momenta is."
ValeriaT
This comment was downvoted here, whereas it represents exactly the point of this new article.
Torbjorn_Larsson_OM
One such test was described recently here. [ http://phys.org/n...tml#nRlv ]
In fact, weak measurements in and of themselves would be a failed test for the observer effect. But it is nice that they test every situation.
"if the results from 1 and 3 are almost identical then 2 did not do much change." The reason for the particular experiments involved were a lot more complicated. In principle they could have gotten away with two measurements, #1 measuring weakly the property #2 measured strongly. (Fig 1 in the paper.)
Torbjorn_Larsson_OM
@ ValeriaT:
Fractal failure comment.
- This article says precisely nothing on light speed limits.
- The phase velocity says precisely nothing on light speed limits.
- Group velocities and wave forms combine to say something, and it is known beyond reasonable doubt that signals obey relativity (causality allows at most vacuum speed of light information transfer).
This is well known, it is conceptually simple, and it has been well tested for a century without fail despite very, very, yes in fact very, many tests. Open a physics book and check out for yourself.
Oh, and I need to let my browser access the voting scripts. Thanks for the tip!
ValeriaT
Deathclock
This is an expression of our inability to probe at these scales... that's all. Existing in multiple places at the same time violates the definition of a "thing"... it would be multiple things with the same properties. Physical location is a property of a "thing"... The difference between one "thing" existing in multiple locations and multiple identical "things" each existing in their own location is purely semantics.
Deathclock
Obviously we are talking about the most fundamental constituents of reality here and not complex things like me, but the principle is the same. Physical location is a defining property of a thing, to say that something exists in two places simultaneously is the same as saying that two identical things exist in different places.
Try not to get confused between human-invented concepts used to refer to reality and ACTUAL reality.
dtyarbrough
del2
dtyarbrough
Dug
fmfbrestel
OHH! You got them! They tried to sneak one past us, but you didn't let them. Good for you. /sarcasm
google it yourself.
jimbo92107
What is location? Perhaps we have been misunderstanding what the word means. If we limit the definition of "location" to discrete cubicles of space, then we're telling nature how to be, rather than observing and describing it. Perhaps under certain conditions location has no more meaning than time does to a photon.
Mike_Massen
Now, if I rode on a photon, how long would I be in transit according to the passage of time as far as the photon perceives it, ends up as approaching infinity or rather T over 0 - which too me, isnt infinity - rather I interpret that to mean "time does not apply to the perception of time from a photon's perspective"
Sorry to hijack this discussion, this has been bothering me for a while until a dream put some things in context last month hmmm...
ValeriaT
Deathclock
An object cannot exist in two places at once because it violates the definition of an object... an object has a location, ONE location... If you tell me that an object exists in two places simultaneously I will tell you that you are wrong, that there are actually two objects, and they are identical EXCEPT for their location in space... the different locations of the two objects, if identical in every other way, is itself enough to make them TWO objects.
An "object" is an abstract and concept... it means what we dictate that it means, and right now, due to our perception of reality, existing in a single location is a defined property of EVERY object.
Deathclock
The question is meaningless, photons cannot perceive anything. Perception is an emergent phenomenon of neural activity, which operates at FAR less than light speed. I know it's a hypothetical question, I know that you know that photons cannot perceive anything, but I think it's important to realize that some questions are simply nonsense. You might as well ask how happy a photon is... it simply doesn't apply, "happiness" and "perception" are properties that photons do not possess.
The passage of time is a perception, the perception of change of the physical state of reality. If nothing perceives it, the presence or absence of it is meaningless.
Furthermore, as far as we know photons are merely energy and energy is eternal... what meaning would time possibly have to something that is eternal? Photons ARE time... in that energy IS time, in that energy is responsible for change.
logic_run
I understand that it is possible to send a beam of light through a polarizing lens and those photons that make it through are considered to be "polarised." But viewing the property of polarisation as something inherently contained within the photon, how is it possible to test for this?
I have a suspicion about what the answer may be. I think polarisation may relate to "spin" (otherwise called "angular momentum") and there may be magnetic resonance involved? But I would be interested to hear from anyone that knows this in empirical terms or someone who can give me an insight into the accepted theory.
Help much appreciated.
Job001
johanfprins
HUP is not, anymore, about not being able to measure without changing the result. It has become a postulate that "uncertainty" is inbuilt into Nature whether you measure or do not measure: The latter is claptrap, since it violates Galileo's concept of inertia.
Noumenon
I was under the impression that was always the case, that the measurement aspect of the principal was merely a some what 'classical' analogy to explain to classically minded physicists of the time ,.... while fundamentally it expresses that conjugate variables are Fourier transforms of each other, which still holds of course.
Noumenon
Bernd
ValeriaT
johanfprins
This is where Heisenberg misled physicists: Mind you he was clever like a fox: He even misled Einstein!!
There is NO uncertainty in momentum and position of an electron when solving the Schroedinger wave-equation. The electron-wave, like ALL harmonic waves has a size (delta)x in position space and a size (delta)k in reciprocal space. This has NOTHING to do wih the centre-of-mass of such a wave: For example, any stationary Schroedinger-wave of an electron has distributed mass-energy and therefore a centre-of-mass which has a DEFINITE position (say x=0) and a definite momentum whuch MUST be p=0: This is mandatory for Newton's first law (Galileo's inertia), which must be valid, even within the QM domain
ValeriaT
The another question is, both these theories are formulated being as local (causual) as possible - so that the conservative purists will always adhere on their strictly local formulations, which would enable to work with them (and to generate articles, jobs and money) most reliably and comfortably. All these extensions of relativity and quantum mechanics are dirty mixes, which violate the original postulates of these theories on background.
johanfprins
ValeriaT
johanfprins
I know he did and therefore he and Bohr led physics back into a New Age of superstition. WE are not supposed to know how Nature does it! If we "look" at what the "particles" are doing, they do not want to diffract anymore: What a load of claptrap!
ValeriaT
johanfprins
One cannot reconcile the Copenhagen-interpretation with realism and causality, so I doubt whether you have any sapshots of a real garden that you are able to wave around. Thus, maybe my snapshot is the only correct one??
ValeriaT
johanfprins
Furthermore, as we know from radio-waves, an EM wave can only be absorbed when it resonates with an absorber (antenna). The lower the frequency, the longer the wavelength, and the larger the dimensions of the absorber must be. The observation screen consists of a distribution of absorbers for each frequency. Since the absorbers for light with long wavelengths cause larger "dots" they merge sooner, giving the perception that these photons do not cause "dots".
It is really very simple you know; unless you prefer to believe in Voodoo instead of reality.
johanfprins
A wave packet is NOT a coherent wave and will therefore give a washed-out diffraction pattern. This is not observed for single photons: Therefore Copenhagen is claptrap.
BS!! They are both nonsense!
Deathclock
ValeriaT
I explained you already, the wake wave around photon is, what is diffracted during double slit experiment. And this wake wave is essentially coherent and monochromatic. Which is the reason, why the deBroglie pilot wave theory has its place in physics.
@Deathclock: I'm not following the voting here as well because of its abusing with various individuals.
indio007
NMvoiceofreason
This is a non-conflict conflict.
johanfprins
johanfprins
When you make a measurement which changes the boundary conditions a wave will morph to adapt to the new boundary conditions, but this does not mean that there is an uncertainty in the position or the momentum of a wave. There NEVER has been NOR ever will be such uncertainties.
Mike_Massen
Try telling the perception to gps satellites too etc...
When I meant perception surely its best to see that as 'passage of time, from the perspective of the particle' and this is a real issue !
Take a radioactive nucleon if its travelling relativistically with respect to a stationary reference frame it *does* last longer before the classic decay, this is not mere perception it is demonstrable as a fact. SR does apply !
There are experiments where photons are slowed right down at very low temperatures and in relation to bose-einstein condensates so the equations of SR must be applied, photons have also disappeared ! variants of SR equations therefore must apply !
Dont oversimplify my query, see it in context and lift your intellect/game ?
johanfprins
It is so relative to a clock on earth but not a clock travelling with the decaying entity. But this is another topic!
The eqs. of SR do apply. When stopping a light-wave the time within the body of the wave stops and its energy becomes rest-mass. They do not "disappear" they only stop to add to the mass-energy of the absorber
Mike_Massen
The SR equations re twins dont require gravity its v^2 related, ie Velocity not gravitational field, look up SR and do the maths yourself - they wont be the same age at all - no arbitrary claims, dont be a dunderhead - check it and get an education Please before commenting again so as not to waste time !
Photons dont have a 'rest mass' (as such), observations of photon 'decay' or loss under those bose-einstein conditions dont increase the mass of the system - the photons do seem to disappear...
The relationship between electrons, relativistic effects, photons and the photoelectric effect appears much more complex than initially described. Understand why Einstein got the Nobel, there might be another opportunity in that field for another Nobel...
sstritt
Actually he got the Nobel for the photoelectric effect, not SR or GR, but agree with the rest.
Mike_Massen
btw. I did expand by suggesting the photoelectric effect has a great deal more to be understood, the relationship between the e- creating a photon, time, the photon being absorbed and moving an e- or ejecting it etc There seems to me to be more room for another Nobel in that field...
vacuum-mechanics
Okay, but it is interesting to note that nowadays physicists still not know its physical meaning, may be this (below) could help us to understand it.
http://www.vacuum...19〈=en
daywalk3r
Pinning down the real fundaments (principles) behind the whole process (eg. understanding what planck units really mean) would finally allow us to move beyond quantum mechanics, which I think is a feat worth many Nobels, not just one.
Though there's a pletora of mental/formal straitjackets currently standing in its way, so it might be a bit rough of a journey before it gets finally recognized/accepted.
But, most importantly, we are getting there.. just slowly :-)
rah
No, they didn't.
ValeriaT
Deathclock
Wow you really didn't understand what I said... Two people can of course perceive time differently per time dilation of GR, no shit... you completely missed the point I was making.
nevermind... not worth my time.
johanfprins
johanfprins
johanfprins
What is generated within a metal are pseudo-electrons, each having a mass energy LESS than the rest-mass energy of a free electron. An incoming photon-WAVE resonates with the pseudo e-WAVE, stops in its tracks and converts its dynamic mass-energy partly or totally into rest-mass energy which increases the mass-energy of the pseudo-electron: If this increase in mass-energy is larger than the rest-mass of a free electron, the pseudo-electron ejects from the metal to be a really free-electron.
The energy does not disappear when a ph is absorbed by an electron-wave: It is gobbled-up by the e-wave which then morphs into a higher energy e-wave.
Noumenon
The two clocks are only stationary relative to their own reference frame, not to each other. Perhaps you misspoke. The situation for the two twins is not symmetrical,... as the traveling one must enter two reference frames to arrive back at earth.
Noumenon
I think 'Deathclock's-tangent' (cool name for a band btw) was saying is that Time is a conceptual artifact, not a physical entity in itself. There is no observable time-particle or time-field. You say "time passes" which is vague physically. Fundamentally, time is the comparison between the number of cycles of one standard physical system congruent with the number of cycles of other systems. Thats it. It's a difference in physical circumstance that causes this relative difference, and which we conceptualize as "time".
Noumenon
Are you sure. I'm saying the "measurement aspect" of HUP, that is, as Heisenberg explained it in intuitive terms, i.e. can't measure without disturbing the system.
In other words, what is being defeated above (if valid) is merely his intuitive analogy, not his physical relation dxdp>h.
Noumenon
Wrong. #obnoxious buzzer sound#
Your mistake is in interpretation of the wave-function as having a center of mass. The wavefunction is NOT a physical entity.
This state-vector as represented in Hilbert space, is NOT observable unless it is congruent with a basis vector. That is to say, it must collapse or project onto a basis vector representation,... which are the possible observables.
The wave-function expresses probabilities, not center-mass physical entities.
johanfprins
Why are we arguing about SR: This thread is about HUP; which you also obviously do not understand.
johanfprins
johanfprins
Noumenon
Yes in each frame the laws of physics don't change, but the representation does. The entire point of Einstein was to state "Lorenzt invariance", not time invariance. The components of a physical representation vary wrt velocity, but not the physics being represented,.. for example the four-momentum vector does not change, but the components used in a particular coordinate system do change,.. one of which is time, i.e. in time dilation, length contraction.
It's even worse in GR, where there are NO synchronized clocks.
johanfprins
You like to believe in Voodoo physics!! Einstein correctly stated: God does not play dice!
johanfprins
If you synchronise all the clocks along a railway-line and a train passes by, an observer within the train will observe these clocks along the platform to be out of synchronisation WHILE THEY ARE NOT. An observer on the platform will find that the nose and tail are simultaneously further apart than the actual length of the train! No contraction but an elongation!!
Noumenon
How so? You correctly pointed out above that Einstein stated that physics should remain the same irrespective of reference frame,... That's what Lorentz invariance IS.
It's called "Lorentz" invariance because of the signature (-, , , ) of the spacetime. The Lorentz transformation is another concept.
Noumenon
Correct, the physics observed "appear", and thus ARE, effected by relative velocity of different frames of reference. Apart from the philosophical issue of time tangent, Mike mentioned several good examples about of measurable effects that SR correctly predicts. That is what a theory does,.. it predicts observations.
What is your objection?
Noumenon
Are you totally unable to follow SR? The Twin thought experiment is not a paradox, because the situation is not symmetrical wrt reference frames, the moving one changing frames.
Einsteins postulate IS correct, yes,, AND time dilation occurs. The two atomic clocks will run at different rates if they move at different velocities, which IS the physics. Einstein was a physicist. Btw, wrt appearances, the speed of light is already taken account of in SR, so it's not merely about an appearance due to a finite light speed, if that was your meaning above.
Noumenon
Actually, their point was to remove metaphysics and conceptual assumptions from physics. That 'god does not play dice' is an intuitive assumption. That the wavefunction is a physical entity is an intuitive assumption. It is you who wish to keep superstition, while physics progresses from observations only, not from "what goes on in between". In fact in QM, the exact "realism" mechanism of electron absorption and emission is entirely unknown.
johanfprins
In my example above, I pointed out that an observer on the train will see the sync clocks along the railway showing different times while these clocks do no such thing. Similarly if there are sync clocks within the train along the whole length of the train, they will also not show different times. Thus, within both IRF's time does not change with position. Neither does any clock in one IRF keep time at a different rate than an identical clock within the other IRF.
Sync clocks will not go out of sync when a train is passing by.
johanfprins
It would only have been correct if time-rate could actually have been different at different positions within an IRF. This is not the case! Minkowski caused this misperception.
johanfprins
This is what relativity is all about: When a ball is launched vertically within a passing IRF you will observe it to follow parabolic path while it is not doing so within the IRF within which it has been launched. If you want it to follow a vertical path in your IRF, you will have to ensure that it is launched at an angle. For the same reason you have to adjust the clock-rate on a GPS.
johanfprins
It is incorrectly understood: Two simultaneous events at different positions within a passing IRF will be observed at different times within your IRF, but this does not mean that the clocks at the positions within your IRF, where you observe the two events, are simultaneously showing different times. They are keeping the exact same time: If they did not, you would not have been able to conclude that the two events are not simultaneous within your IRF.
Noumenon
It is implicit in SR that relative simultaneity fails. That is to say the person on the train will disagree with the person on the platform over what is simultaneous.
johanfprins
There is NO experimental proof that the wave-intensity of an electron is a probability distribution. All experiments quoted in support of this ridiculous assumption can be explained in terms of wave-behaviour
Mike_Massen
To clarify, in respect of the twin problem/paradox, that when the twins are reconciled after travel will:-
i. Be the same age ?
ii. Have different age but *only* due to GR (GTD) ?
iii. Have different age due to GR (GTD) and to a lesser effect of SR (Velocity TD) than conventionally accepted ?
In light of your thoughts above on the three points,
Would you care to comment specifically on corrections applied to GPS satellites being in line with predictions of GR *and* SR ?
Finally, as it seems many experiments for decades confirm GR and SR effects re time dilation, are you aware of and can you reference any definitive experiments which confirm your objection/theory re SR TD and by what degree etc ?
johanfprins
I am first taking a break: But will be back!
Noumenon
To know that you have to be in the IRF with all the sync'd clocks, so therefore in accord with SR, your spacial coordinates define simultaneity. The passenger on the train will disagree though, as there is no absolute space-time.
Consider a modified version; Two space ships in different IRF fly at different velocities passed two exploding bombs. Ship A says they both exploded at the same time, while ship B says they didn't. Who is correct?
The question itself is entirely frame dependant.
johanfprins
If there is an age difference it will NOT have been caused by SR.
Of course these corrections are required for both. In the case of GR, the clock is actually going faster since it is in a lower gravitational field. In the case of SR, the correction is required since it seems from earth as if the clock is running slower while it is not doing so.
If you do not correct for SR and bring the clocks together after say 50 years you will find no time difference that was caused by SR.
johanfprins
Obviously, simultaneity only makes sense when the two events occur simultaneously within a single IRF within which space-time is absolute. Since the two simultaneous events did not occur within the IRF's of either spaceship, your question is irrelevant.
Noumenon
Bohr and Heisenberg were anything but superstitious (metaphysicians), they were in fact logical positivists. It was a sarcastic response to Einstein saying "God does not play dice". In other words, Einstein expected reality to accord with his intuitions. To presume an a-priori conceptual structure as consistently operative to all of reality, is metaphysics in pure form.
Such was the quantum revolution and the break with tradional "classical" physics, where intuitive conceptualizations had to be abondoned to make progress.
Noumenon
It's relevance is in showing that you're talking out of your ass. So, in other words my example, the purpose of which was to demonstrate failure of relative simultaneity, ,.. is "irrelevent" because simultaneity doesn't make sense in that example?
Read it again. I said one of the ships OBSERVES the bombs going off simualtaneously. The space ship example is as valid as your train example, and shows that different observers at different velocities will not agree on what are simultaneous events.
Noumenon
Botopfbber
johanfprins
I did, and I again noted that you give no definition of what simultaneity means. If you are a scientist you are a very sloppy one!
Noumenon
In response to you stating,...
johanfprins
Such was the quantum revolution and the break with tradional "classical" physics, where intuitive conceptualizations had to be abondoned to make progress.
johanfprins
johanfprins
ValeriaT
Mike_Massen
johanfprins went on to offer a stark contradiction with If that were the case why do you think it is necessary to correct for SR as in your statement earlier each & every day ?
So when the admins have corrected for GR & SR as if they are real effects & not perceptions you claim they are totally wrong, how so ?
johanfprins
This was clearly explained: If it is not corrected for this relativistic perception from earth, one will not be able to calculate positions on earth correctly!
I did not claim this at all!! The correction is required when it is real (as for gravity) and when it is a perception (as for SR).
Deathclock
Thank you!
Mike_Massen
Which doesn't invalidate my question. The atomic clocks on the GPS when interrogated spit out their 'local' time, presumably after being calibrated just prior to launch. It is reported they run faster by 45,900 ns/day due to the lower gravitational field but also run slower by 7,200 ns/day due their velocity re SR.
So when they spit out a number which is 45,900-7,200 ns diff. per day how can *you* or the admins tell if real and measurable change in rate as being due to what combination of GR or SR since you seem to only suggest SR is a perception, But the numbers are real they are not a mere perception its a measurable quantity?
johanfprins
Noumenon
Do you mean, 'are the two events moving'? It depends on the circumstances of your thought experiment. You tell me.
It is possible that Ship A sees two events as simultaneous even though the two events may be moving relative to each other. Simultanety being of an instant, naturally.
johanfprins
As I have pointed out, you do not need to know this to adjust the clock on the satellite.
johanfprins
I am asking YOU to define when two events separated by a distance L in space are simultaneous or not. And I have asked you whether two events at two points can be simultaneous when the two points are moving relative to one another. It is a simple question with a yes or no answer. Einstein used simultaneous events to explain SR: So there MUST be conditions under which two events are actually simultaneos or not simultaneous. If there are not such conditions, two events can NEVER be simultaneous.
That is correct but it does not define when two events are actually simultaneous!
Noumenon
To measure a velocity requires a standard of time. But, this standard of time is really just the number of cycles of some reference system, which will be congruent with the event in question. So, what is physically being compared are two events. It's just easier to say one second than "the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom."
Entropy is an epiphenomenon.
johanfprins
Noumenon
I answered both questions somewhere above, but I'll answer the former one again; When the two events are observed at the same time in a particular reference frame. There is no absolute simultaneity however, it is observer dependent.
Google is your friend and mentor. I mean entropy is not a fundamental physical law, it's just a statistical based result, thus cannot be physical "time" .
ValeriaT
ValeriaT
I highly recommend the supplemental information if you want to actually follow how many ways these guys semi-collapse the photons polarization state.
Mike_Massen
The admins report the atomic clocks speed up by 45,900ns/day due to GR and slow down by 7,200 ns due to SR.
So when they interrogate the atomic clocks they see a real difference between ground clocks of 45,900-7,200 then, following your issue re perception, how do they know which aspect of that number is real and which is mere perception ?
You stated earlier that if they didnt correct for SR that after 50 years the clocks will be the same (as ground units) if only corrected for GR.
Are you therefore implying SR is to be treated much like doppler shift and it will therefore (mostly) cancel out after 50 years ie sometimes plus & sometimes minus etc ?
The Lorentz factor seems to me to be a scalar, if so, then how can it cancel out after 50 years ?
cyberCMDR
johanfprins
It has nothing to do with the presence of an observer or not. Let us cut through your BS:
Simultaneity of two events can only occur within a specific IRF. This mens that the two events MUST be stationary relative to one another. It also means that two clocks at the positions of the two events MUST show the SAME time. Since two events can occur simultaneously at any two separated points within the IRF, it mandates that within an IRF clocks at different positions can be synchronised to keep the exact same time: This, in turn, means that time is NOT position-dependent within an IRF: i.e. that an IRF defines an ABSOLUTE space-time: Just like Newton has assumed.
This does not mean that you will observe events within a passing IRF to be the same as observed within the passing IRF: Even Newton new this: Ergo his first law.
johanfprins
I have not stated that entropy IS physical time: YOu really have a problem with reading and comprehension you know.
What is clear is that when you have maximum entropy, time does npt have a direction (a past and a future). For time to have a direction, irreversable processes must occur and the latter requires a change in entropy. Have you EVER read a book on thermodynamics? I doubt it!
johanfprins
PLEASE stop drowning us in verbose bollox!!
johanfprins
This is probably actually happening WITHIN the satellite
This is as observed from earth: It is a purely relativistic effect and does not actually occur on the clock within the satellite.
Let me try and explain again in terms of relativity without involving time: When an aeroplane passes by and drops a bomb, you will from the earth see the bomb following a parabolic path: Relative to the aeroplane the bomb will drop straight down. If you use this straight-down motion to also be the motion relative to earth, you will miscalculate where the bomb will explode.
Although the parabolic motion relative to earth is REAL, it is NOT REAL relative to the aeroplane.
Similarly although the SR time-dilation relative to earth is experienced as being real it is not really occurring on the clock within the satellite.
johanfprins
That is obviously correct, since the SR ajdustments are made to get the correct results on earth. If they are not made, the clock on the satellite (excluding GR) will keep the SAME time as the clock on earth.
It is not neccessary to complicate the issue by bringing the d-shift into this.
It only gives you the change in time as observed from earth, which is not the same as what is actually occurring on the satellite: On the sattelite, except for GR, the clock keeps EXACTLY the same time as the clock on earth.
drhoo
One basic example is frequency/value as the observed time scale becomes small.
As for position of small particles i though it was settled that until measured a small particle does not have a precise position.
Mike_Massen
I notice you have ignored my idea to use the GPS atomic clock as an instrument. Please dont get fixated on corrections of time, use it as an instrument of the environment it is in, can we converge on the detail of the use as an instrument which has no issue of anthropomorphism or judgement of reality vs perception.
ie. When the GPS is interrogated it spits out a number which must reflect the rate of the clock - whether GR or SR or *any* issue as to why faster or slower, the GPS doesnt care ! The numbers spat out surely are real reflection of its environment however it is impacted by GR or any other factor making it report it is faster or slower, how can you separate confidently that which you claim is real from that which you claim is perception for a scalar number ?
Presumably when the base atomic clock & the GPS atomic clock are both on ground & both stationary with respect to each other than they would show the same rate, those initial conditions are valid surely ?
johanfprins
as well as time and reciprocal time (frequency) space. These attributes have NOTHING to do with a "particle" having "uncertainties" in position and momentum; nor with "uncertainties" in time and frequency. They are proof that light- and matter-energy consist purely as waves.
This is the Voodoo dogma which is at present accepted by the mainstream physicists (read "mainstream" as "mediocre"). But it is of course total nonsense: It leads to a non-real interpretation of physics.
johanfprins
Yes
In that case, you know where you are and you know your impulse so to say. However you could not communicate the results with others, without changing your own properties.
LOL
Noumenon
I noticed at your profile page under other interests your wrote;
"To promote integrity in Physics"
Reality has no use for your notion of "realism". You are promoting metaphysics by imposing your subjective concepts onto reality. The QM revolution was the lesson that physics is about making predictions based only on observations, not to satisfy our intuitive predilections.
johanfprins
Reality has no use for your notion of "realism". You are promoting metaphysics by imposing your subjective concepts onto reality. I am not doing that at all. You must be talking about Heisenberg, Bohr, Born, Dirac etc. This is exactly what they have done and what the mainstream theoretical physicists are still doing at present. If you think you are doing physics by not trying to find out what causes what you are observing, you are not a physicist but superstitious fool.
johanfprins
I hope you do, since it will be extremely embarrassing to have a fool like you on my side!
FS1
johanfprins
remoran
drhoo
One experiment that seems to prove HUP is the stellar interferometer that uses HUP directly to measure stellar diameter
johanfprins
"Particles" do not exist, only mass-intensities with centres-of-mass. A centre-of-mass is NOT a "particle": Whatever the latter undefined term means.
Mike_Massen
For the sake of brevity and to pin this down please:-
- Neglect effects due to GR
- Neglect comms delay, either up or down.
- Assume GPS computer response time is the same
- Assume ground electronics response time is the same.
- Assume signal path length is the same, Eg. Directly overhead
Are you claiming the data stream back from the GPS will show the same count as the clock on earth since the last time the earth and GPS clocks were interrogated ?
johanfprins
A measurement made from earth is subject to the LT, and it is thus impossible to measure the same rate, even when the GPS clock keeps the same time-rate as a reference clock on earth. The LT does not allow this to be possible.
Just as it is impossible to measure an up-and-down movement on the satellite as an up-and-down movement wrt to earth.
Noumenon
Are you saying that the qm wave-function describing a system has a "classically" identifiable center-of-mass-[energy]? Even the pilot-wave interpretation is non-local.
The problem with such (desperate) attempts at maintaining the 'classical' notion of Realism, is that one is lead into metaphysics, precisely because you are making statements about what is not observable. The aether was a like idea, a theoretical crutch to lean on,.. entirely unobservable and redundant.
Physics cannot make progress without observations. 'Center of mass energy' is not observable in itself.
Noumenon
Only after repeating many diffractions, with many electrons, does it become apparent that the electron interferes with itself. A Single electron is never observed as a wave, ....as a spread of electron-intensity.
This only means that the electron is neither a wave, nor a particle,... that what it is, in-itself, apart from the act of observation, ...is unknowable in principal.
As I explained above the Hilbert-space formulation of qm defines what is Observable; The basis frame onto which the state is projected, is experimentally dependant, which is to say, is supplied given the nature of the experiment.
Your desire of "realism" requires that you speak of metaphysics.
johanfprins
For simplicity let us stick to a single-electron-wave. Within its own IRF it MUST have a stationary centre-of-mass (NO uncertainties in position and momentum or else inertia on which ALL physics equations are based must be scrapped). It must thus be an actual stationary wave with distribued mass-energy.
It is not "desperate" and it does not need metaphysics to explain physics like the probability interpretaion requires: eg. Wheeler's delayed choice experiment.
What can be more metaphysical than to postulate that photons or electrons "know" when we are looking at them?
johanfprins
When you derive the relativistic equation for an electron moving through free space correctly (not the Dirac nonsense) you will find that this wave is modelled by Maxwell's equation for the potential of light, but where this light-energy is moving at a speed less than c.
It is: Wnen an entity follows a classical path through space, this path is delineated by the centre-of-mass. An electron does follow such a path and must thus have a centre-of-mass. If this were not so, we would not have had electron microscopes. Thus the electron is an electromagnetic wave with a centre-of-mass.
Assuming wave-particle duality is metaphysics!
johanfprins
If it could not have moved through both slits and spread out on the other side, one would not have observed a diffraction pattern on a screen after many of them have passed through the slits.
The spread-out wave that reaches the screen must be stopped to be observed: This requires that the electron-wave must morph from being a moving (spread-out) wave to become a stationary wave. It thus ACTUALLY collapses and leaves a spot.
The probability to leave a spot is highest where EACH IDENTICAL, spread-out electron-wave has the highest intensity: Voila, after many electrons formed spots, one can see the diffracted intensity of each identical spread-out electron-wave: No metaphysics required. Why do you like Voodoo?
I am taking a short break!
Noumenon
That doesn't require a metaphysical explanation at all. In fact the non-intuitive nature of qm is an epistemological issue...;
The notion of Realism in physics is untenable because Reality 'as it is in itself', that is, apart from our conceptualizations of it, can not be known, by definition. All we can do is subject Reality to a conceptual structure supplied by us, in the way we design, perform, and interpret experiments.
This is implicit in von Neumann's Hilbert formulation of qm, since we supply the basis in which the qm-state is decomposed.
Those are the forms in which that reality is conceptualized,... I stated above that the Reality apart from those forms are NOT of that nature.
Noumenon
This is correct, except it is not about "intensity", which is a misapplication of that notion. Intensity implies many electrons, or many photons. We are speaking of one indivisible. Do you mean mass-energy density?
How physically does the collapse occur then, if the wave-function is Real? Theoretically, your "electron wave" could be spread out over large distances. How does the detecting atom suck in this "physical wave".
johanfprins
This is mathematical jargon for saying that when you measure, you might change the boundary-conditions and since reality consists of waves, the waves change when their boundary conditions change! Mathematics is a useful language when doing physics BUT IT IS NOT IN ITSELF PHYSICS!! Physics requires visualisation of what is occurring!!
johanfprins
Parallel universes etc.! And I am blamed to practice metaphysics? You must all be demented!!
Noumenon
No, I'm not opposing the concept of "wave function", only a physical interpretation of it. Yes, decoherence occurs, but with the probability interpretation.
johanfprins
As usual your opinion is BS! A photon is a real EM coherent wave moving with speed c. A moving electron is also a real EM coherent wave but propagating at a speed v
johanfprins
johanfprins
Whose definition? I will buy this but why do you then insist to interpret these results in terms of the absurd and impossible? It makes much more sense when you interpret the results in terms of what we have experienced is possible and not absurd. We know that diffraction usually occurs when coherent wavefronts move consecutively through both slits: Why assume that this is not what happens?
Noumenon
The exact opposite is being stated by me. I am denying it is meaningful to speak of things that are unobservable in principal.
Our intuitive conceptualizations of reality changes the form of reality to one dependent upon us,.. thus purely logically, conceptualized reality must be different in form from Reality as it is in itself. Mind(R) != R.
This is why qm is non-classical and non-intuitive. This is why Bohr told Einstein " Albert, stop telling God what He can or cannot do". Einstein wish to subject Reality to preconceived notions (determinism),... while Bohr denied the validity of doing so.
The mention of God by both men was purely an allegory.
johanfprins
When the bounadary conditions change, the wave MUST change shape and size (sometimes also energy) to adapt: This need not just happen by becomong smaller (collapse) but also by becomong larger (inflate). It has NO OTHER CHOICE when its boundary conditions change! Have you never solved a differential wave equation subject to different boundary conditions?
Mike_Massen
Furthermore, my understanding is that immediately prior to launch each GPS has their clock speed altered to account for GR *&* SR together as real factors which affect the atomic clock on board according to the experience the GPS is exposed to in its environment ie. GR *&* SR.
GPS has been in use for years, without this correction (in the GPS clock rate) for SR it would not show the correct position *&* would be progressively worse especially so after 50 years.
Earlier, I asked re experiments which confirmed your theory you ignored/skipped it with no comment - why ?
johanfprins
AND IT IS NOT RELEVANT IN THIS CASE!!
Deathclock
johanfprins
johanfprins
To interpret the intensity of an electron wave as a probability-distribution is the worst metaphysical Voodoo EVER!!
johanfprins
I observed electron-diffraction which confirms that an electron moving through space is a single coherent wave, AND I observed the path of an electron within a bubble chamber which confirms that the electron has a centre-of-mass; and a centre-of charge.
Thus the interpretation of the intensity of an electron wave as a probability-distribution is not a conceptualisation? It is just another one which prefers superstitious Voodoo!
If it is simpler to conceptualise it so that the wave-intensity dovetails with what we already know about waves, why is this a SIN? Get out of your drug-stupor!
johanfprins
I know that! But the mentality shown by Bohr by his remark proved that he is a metaphysicist; not a REAL physicist!
Noumenon
No, a single photon does not have an "intensity", which is why in the photo-electric effect phenomenon, the energy imparted to an electron from light depends not on it's intensity, but on it's frequency,... because the electron is absorbing single photons. Your e=hv is the energy.
johanfprins
Noumenon
I asked you physically. You are the one stating that the wavefunction is a real thing.
Didn't you just say to me a few days ago,.....
johanfprins
What experiments do you want? I am not NASA you know. I am just stating what the LT mandates MUST be the case when SR applies: AND this is that even when the clocks on the sattelite and on earth keep the exact same time, from the perspective of earth the clock on the satellite will be slower, while from the perspective of the satellite the clock on earth will be slower. This is in all elementary textbooks!
Noumenon
Is it not clear to you that natello was referring to decoherance? You should have taken this as help.
johanfprins
Especially your inane ideas!
johanfprins
johanfprins
Furthermore ant staionary light-wave; for example within a laser cavity or a black-body cavity has a comples wave-amplitude: When the dimensiona of the cavity changes, the complex amplitude and the intensity it represents must also change physically.
I am arguing physics as you can see, but also using the correct mathematics: Not Dirac's singularities and similar claptrap.
johanfprins
Why? It is clear that neither natello, or you, even knows what decoherence is. If you cannot even understand the simplest of simplest issues that I have been trying to explain to you, why should I even try to get into decoherence?
OK goodnight for now!
Noumenon
Intensity by definition in qm, means the number of photons per unit area per unit time.
Should you really be insulting me?
Mike_Massen
johanfprins went on NO.
GPS packet digital data is not a (delta)T WRT earth. The digital data are numbers in a comms packet from the GPS, cannot change in transit !
We are not observing (delta)T on earth, we get the REPORT of only what the GPS experiences. Btw: This interrogation is not the method used by consumers, purely used by the admins to check GPS atomic clock.
This is the correct experimental methodology to cut through many types of issues as measurement is made at source etc...
Surely you can see the value of that approach ?
Argiod
Or, the universe is wholly made up of pure energy, in all its magnificent forms; and, like in the Matrix... there is no spoon (or matter)...
johanfprins
The fact is that a photon is a SINGLE coherent light-wave which propagates through space like ANY other SINGLE coherent light-wave does (for example a laser beam WHICH DOES NOT CONSIST OF DISTINGUISHABLE PHOTONS). Thus, the photon-wave has oscillating electric- and magnetic-field components. It is well known from Maxwell's equations that such a wave has a real energy-intensity.
A single electron wave MOVING through free space is simIlarly propagating as an EM field (except that it moves at a speed v
johanfprins
To complete: ......(except that it moves with a speed v
Mike_Massen
SR is asymmetrical, it applies to the IRF that moves away under acceleration (no matter how brief or otherwise) & if/when the moving IRF returns the clocks will not reconcile, the period of time at motion & velocity are critical.
This is confirmed by the GPS in their role as instruments (& designed that way to report on GR and SR as required to maintain accuracy).
Change in atomic clock rate is measured in the GPS environment & assessed not by (delta)T from Earth but instead by a comms packet containing the digital data count (ie doesnt change in transit).
Your claim SR is merely a perception (with impatient, nasty & impolite bluster) is NOT correct.
General discussion can be found on here:- http://en.wikiped...lativity
Understandably as its wikipedia (can be amended) its obviously appropriate to rifle through the references with due diligence.
Your polite response please, when convenient (& take your time too) ?
johanfprins
johanfprins
LET ME TRY AGAIN:
I know that this is the standard WRONG interpretation.
The fact is that a photon is a SINGLE coherent light-wave which propagates through space like ANY other SINGLE coherent light-wave does (for example a laser beam WHICH DOES NOT CONSIST OF DISTINGUISHABLE PHOTONS). Thus, the photon-wave has oscillating electric- and magnetic-field components. It is well known from Maxwell's equations that such a wave has a real energy-intensity.
A single electron wave MOVING through free space is simIlarly propagating as an EM field (except that it moves at a speed v that is less than c). It thius has an EM field-intensity equal to m*c^2.
I apologise if you find me insulting; but you are exasperating since you are not even willing to try and think outside mainstream dogma: Not even for argument's sake: Mainstream dogma is like the Pater Noster to you!
johanfprins
All I am stating is that when two IRF's move relative to one another with a relative speed v, no matter whether they are approaching or receding, the clock running at a rate measured within the IRF, within which it is stationary, is observed to be running slower within the other IRF and vice versa. This means that the rate within your IRF is NOT the rate at which the moving clock actually keeps time.
Whether this is also the case when the clock follows a circular path relative to me, I do not know, and frankly I do not care. All I know is that twins receding from one another cannot age at different rates.
johanfprins
Please read my statement above and let us stick to HUP.
Mike_Massen
Please look here:- http://en.wikiped...periment
And prelim discussion http://en.wikiped..._paradox
There does appear to be significant evidence confirming SR is asymmetrical.
There is no evidence suggesting your hypothesis has foundation that SR is merely a perception. GPS deals with this many many times on a daily basis !
Please take my advice and sleep on it, a week is fine, get to grips with not being needlessly emotionally attached to an idea and willing to seek out the provenance of truth with great detachment & integrity as claimed.
johanfprins
I made NO hypothesis. I only applied the LT when IRF's are moving with a constant speed relative to one another, and found that the clocks must be keeping the same time-rate relative to their own IRF's.
Where have I been emotional? YOU are deducing results from experiments which are contaminated by gravitational effects. This is irresponsible and naive!
Mike_Massen
Did you BOTHER to read the links I offered fully & with integrity ?
There are many experiments which confirm SR is not perception, read links fully PLEASE & browse references !
In case of the jumbo jets, (delta) gravitational field is small wrt the atomic clocks on ground, the effect shown re eastward and westward is significant & does fit with the predictions of SR.
Please read & try not to get impolite again and argue for the sake of it - else I'll recommend you see your doctor re the onset of alzheimers, no joke, I have studied this with great depth along with engineering, psychology & food science.
Please take the TIME & re-examine honestly your thinking processes, you seem to be falling into the classic crystalline paradigm of ignoring evidence which doesnt support your hypothesis & seeking evidence which supports it, so far there is NONE in that latter respect.
Please Please, take your time, quick responses show reactionary zeal not integrity or maturity !
Noumenon
I know enough, not be so confident with naïveté to think I can improve upon SR and QM.
johanfprins
Noumenon
I'm saying that one can know just enough to think they know better, but not enough to know they don't.
You've have stated a few factually incorrect things, then when called on it you retort that "mainstream" physics is wrong. Generally, they are not "wrong" per say since they are back by experimental confirmation directly or indirectly.
johanfprins
Examples please! Obviously I disagree with quite a bit of mainsteam physics but I also give valid reasons why it is wrong. You in your typical dishonest manner try to create the impression that I do not give any physics-reasons for what I claim. Neither do you follow up on my valid arguments. It is clear that you are not willing to argue issues but to at all costs defend mainstream dogma; no matter how absurd and Voodoo it has become. Like the Higgs boson, like claiming that what we do at present affects the past? Sheez
johanfprins
It is ludicrous to claim that when twin A experiences twin B's clock to be slower by a certain amount while twin B experiences that twin A's clock is slower by the same amount, that there can be asymmetry so that one clock does actually go slower than the other. It is like stating that the two twins are identical, especially the one!
johanfprins
This is what I am asking YOU to do!!! Take your time to do the derivation I have just pointed out, then take your time to try and figure it out: The asymmetry is your Alzheimer head.
drhoo
My question is that if an electron is a traditional EM wave propagating in every possible direction with energy density decreasing as the wavefront expands then how is it that a detector finds all the electron energy at one point when a detection occurs??
Noumenon
But I guess John Wheeler, Albert Eintein, Roger Pentose, Stephen Hawking, Rochard Feynman, etc,.. are all wrong, and johanfprins who spends time arguing about it over the Internet , is right. Is this what you're telling me?
http://en.wikiped..._paradox tripy
Noumenon
He will tell you it's because the "electron wave" enters boundary conditions at the detection point as a standing wave. He wil not say how physically the electron enters a particular atom rather than another some distance away. I already tried.
drhoo
Standing wave ??? A standing wave at least in my understanding is only something that is set up after very many reflections back and forth between two boundaries, not sure how that would apply here..
What happens to the energy that was propagating in all the other directions after the detection at a particular point?
It would have to mysteriously vanish if thermodynamics is valid.
drhoo
It is the acceleration that makes the difference.
Deathclock
It is impossible to know which one accelerated and which one remained stationary...
It's possible that when we send a rocket into space it is all of reality that moves around it while the rocket remains stationary. It may sound ridiculous, but that's the fundamental point of relativity, that it's impossible to determine whether one object is moving or the other, or if they are both moving, and if both are moving which percentage of the relative velocity is contributed by each... there is no difference between any of these possibilities.
drhoo
I don't know for sure what i am talking about but i always wondered what would happen if you had two perfect timepieces, one on each wrist that were perfectly synchronized with the wrists together and then one moved away and returned. Which timepiece would run slower after the return. The one that moved i always reasoned.
johanfprins
It is refreshing to have an intelligent question:
A coherent light-wave need not be a spherical wave: For example, a laser-beam of any length is a coherent wave along the direction in which it moves.
An electron-wave is similar: Its wavelength is determined within te IRF relative to which it is moving. Within the IRF within the e-wave is stationary it is spherical. When viewed from another IRF moving with speed v, it is longer and it has wave-fronts owing to the Lorentz transformation. In fact, the LT is responsible (or is the result) of the wave nature of matter.
The wave-energy within the IRF within which the e-wave is stationary is the rest-mass of the electron. No Higgs boson needed to explain mass-energy
johanfprins
johanfprins
In order for a wave to be detected it has to resonate with the detector: Do you know what a radio is and how to detect radio-waves? Or have you not yet understood this simple physics.
Resonance involves (delta)E*(delta)t of Heisenberg. This allows the electron wave to borrow energy and to jump into the absorber with which it resonates.
If the buffoons in charge of mainstream physics did not consistently block my publications you will have known how it works already 8 years ago.
There is not enough space here to do the simple mathematics involved.
Part of a radio-wave also collapses into your radio's antenna, or else your radio would not have worked
johanfprins
When a light wave resonates with an electron wave, it "enters" the electron-wave and thus adds mass-energy to the electron-wave: For this reason the electron-wave must morph into a higher-energy electron wave. Bohr stupidly called this morphing a "quantum jump".
As pointed out above, an electron-wave cannot propagate in all directions.
johanfprins
Even so there is no proof that time slows down on a clock when it accelerates except for Einstein's postulate of equivalence: I suspect that this postulate is not correct. But I am willing to accept for the time being that acceleration might be responsible. This, however, does not mean that the LT mandates a difference in time rate when the relative motion is at constant speed.
johanfprins
johanfprins
These issues still need objective studies from balanced phycisists: If one can still find such persons! Not people like Noumenon!! God forbid!!
After all, why would light move at another speed than c relative to an accelerating IRF. If it could, one should be able to break the light-barrier by accelerating. I do not think so!
dutchman
What I read, when I saw the headline was: "We are not sure about the uncertainty principle." But what about Heisenberg...?
Mike_Massen
johanfprins is fixated on interpretation of LT hypothesised BEFORE experiments were undertaken !
Please exercise "INTEGRITY" by examining evidence Eg:-
http://en.wikiped...periment
There are others if able to move outside blind attachment to LT.
Ah johanfprins, 'might' be waking with EXACTLY what GPS shows as they were also SET UP to examine it!
Confirmed you know little of GPS, look it up with "INTEGRITY".
The clocks are preset faster to account for GR *&* SR, the results are successful & for decades, continuous confirmation.
Evidence & INTEGRITY please !
johanfprins
If, as you claim the experiments prove that the two clocks keep different rates then LT must be rejected as being wrong! Do you conclude that LT is wrong?
There is no blind attachment on my part: There are only two possibilities: 1. LT is correct and no time rate difference OR 2. experimenatlly there is a time difference so LT has to be rejected. You claim the experiments prove there is a time difference. Do you reject LT?
I do not see any EVIDENCE in the experimental data that LT is wrong.
Yes! Why do you not try your own advice?
johanfprins
So what is your argument? After attacking me like a rabid dog, you now agree that GPS does not prove that two clocks moving with a constant linear speed relative to one another keep different times: Bravo!
Noumenon
You a crank and a fraud and are dishonest. You continue to purposely and dishinestly ignore that the two moving clocks are not simply moving away from each other,... one of them RETURNS, meaning changes IFR during the return.
You have been told by me and mike multiple times that in order for the moving twin to return to earth he must change his IRF, so they're asymmetrical wrt SR.
In fact the effect of acceleration is not even required to get the point, if one imagines upon taking a gradual. urged path back to earth, each tangent along the path is another IRF and therefore another application of LT.
We are talking about speeds approaching c, and there for space-time.
Noumenon
[edited above]
johanfprins
You can only say this if the twins are referenced to a third really stationary IRF. This does not exist.
If it is possible that two clocks are moving at a constant, relative speed to one another can keep time at a different rates, the LT is invalid. I have asked Mike to do the calculation: but he refuses: And YOU call me dishonest and a fraud?
johanfprins
Please derive from Einstein's postulates that each tangent is an IRF! You are just assuming this with no theoretical OR experimental evidence. And YOU think you are a scientist?
But even if you are correct, the LT still demands that two clocks moving with a constant relative speed to one another cannot keep different time rates.
So? Define what you mean by space-time in SR, so that I can see whether you really know what the Hell you are spouting about.
Noumenon
Where did I say in moving along a cured path there is no acceleration? This is what I mean by you being dishonest.
Clearly I said the EFFECT OF ACCELERATION is not required TO GET THE POINT (of the twin experiment), that is to say, ...one can instead imagine a gradual series of straight tangent lines to the curved path taken to return to earth. Each of these tangent paths in (space-time) are separate IRF, therefore each require the LT applied again,..... so it is obvious that the experiment is asymmetrical.
You continue to misrepresent the experiment by insisting the two twins just recede at constant IRF from each other. Factually incorrect.
Noumenon
We are talking about SR, so a tangent line (to a return path) at constant velocity is a straight line in space-time. Imagine the moving twin has a friend taking such a path, clearly the friend is moving in a different IRF than the moving twin. Theoretically the moving twin could jump onto the friends ship and there change his IRF. This would require another application of LT for the earth bound twin, would it not?
I'm saying one could approximate close enough using a jump onto space-time tangent paths (to the curve returning to earth), to show that within SR, the moving twin will age slower. Got it?
Noumenon
The LT does NOT say this in SR, where the space and time components get mixed.
It is not "speed" that is required to be constant, it is "velocity", which obviously means direction. The tangent paths may have the same speed, but different velocity because the coordinate component are different.
johanfprins
ANOTHER LIE BY YOU. I am just saying that during the stretches of the journey that the two IRF's are moving with a constant speed relative to one another, the clocks cannot keep different time rates.
johanfprins
I am afraid that you are hallucinating!
johanfprins
You might have a point here, Although I even doubt that this is correct: BUT this does not change the fact that, according to the LT, a time-interval on one clock is equal to a time-interval on the other clock when the clocks are moving with a constant VELOCITY relative to one another. I ask you again to derive these time-intervals and compare them.
johanfprins
ANOTHER LIE BY YOU. I am just saying that during the stretches of the journey that the two IRF's are moving with a constant VELOCITY relative to one another, the clocks cannot keep different time-rates.
Mike_Massen
claims Please have INTEGRITY to answer:-
i. Why you feel it's 'pathetic' ?
ii. What did the analysis of 'results' show ?
iii. You feel maths of LT is more important than experiments ?
Surely it's analysis of experimental method that's key (not just results - a table of numbers), what did you find that you so strenuously object to, details please ?
May I remind you, experiment was performed in 1971 & must have formed part of your education since you claim to know more about SR than I will ever know - yet in all your comments you have never brought a reasoned refutation of this historical proof of asymmetrical SR to bear.
Maybe you're applying Lorentz Factor (LF) inappropriately & falling into confusion with Lorentz Transformation (LT).
Doesn't it make sense to focus on the specific experiment & earnest analysis thereof ?
Edouard A_M_L_ Duriau
I am fully aware that we cannot extract a wave function for a photon. However, in the context of "normal" wave functions (i.e. for particles), polarization is is a berry phase of the wave function (a property induced by the phase of the wave function). In other words, it is a property that cannot be cast by any observable. BUT Heisenberg's uncertainty principle stands for OBSERVABLES without any mention of Berry phases. How does this fit into this result?
(I really would like to have an enlightened answer to this ;)
johanfprins
What the investigators wanted it to show.
Only experimental results which have been correctly analysed without any fudging.
I have just now given my reasons. LT was not correctly applied; and therefore their results violate LT.
I find it patronising that you are suggesting that I do not know this.
I already did this 25 years ago!
johanfprins
A stationary electron-wave has NO MOMENTUM but one can still write the "uncertainty" in position and "momentum" while momentum cannot be observed. By dividing by Planck's constant you get the reciprocal relationship between position and wave number which is valid for ALL stationary harmonic waves. It gives the reciprocal sizes of the electron wave within real and reciprocal space: It has NOTHING to do with "uncertainties" in mom. or pos. of the centre-of-mass of an electron.
An electron is a wave with a COM. This COM can during resonance jump non-classically. This does not mean an uncertainty in pos. or mom.
Noumenon
That's correct, but that is NOT the twin experiment, so why do you continue to mention this? The moving twin subsequently undergoes acceleration in order to return, which by definition, is a change in IRF, as I tried to explain with my tangent path example.
IOW, you can determine who the moving twin was because of the changes in acceleration, changes in IRF,... thus you can see that the experiment is asymmetrical, and therefore not a paradox.
johanfprins
Whose definition? YOURS? You can define anything you want but you must prove from the postulates of SR and the LT that this actually does cause the clock-rate to change. A definition is not a proof. As Sam Goldwyn would have said: It is like a verbal contract: Not even worth the paper it is written on.
Give me proof that the time will be different, not daffynitions.
Noumenon
johanfprins
In fact, on the return trip, the LT transformed time rate of the returning twin is now faster relative to the clock at home. You must take BOTH your time and poosition coordinates into account as well as the direction of the relative velocity!
Nonetheless, this is irrelevant in the case of thye twins since both their clocks actually keep time at exactly the same rate during the whole trip. It is only the LT transformed times that differ.
johanfprins
As usual you do not have a clue.
A "photon" is the smallest-energy, coherent light-wave that can be emitted by a source or be absorbed by an absorber. This determines its "quantum" of energy.
When it moves through free space it is modelled by the SAME Maxwell equation which models ANY coherent light-wave with ANY energy which moves with speed c through free space.
You can derive this by starting off from the relativistic energy equation for a body with mass m moving through free space. When you set m=0, so that the equation is that for a photon, you get Maxwell's equation for light moving at a speed c (NOT THE KLEIN-GORDON EQUATION).
When you set m equal to the rest-mass of the electron, you AGAIN get Maxwell's equation for light (NOT DIRAC's EQUATION), but now the coherent light-wave is moving with a speed less than c.
Mike_Massen
Sorry you can't understand SE or GPS for that matter. Easy for me as I'm an engineer.
But, to make generalisation NOBODY understands is plain idiocy, obviously we're smarter.
SE relates to interferometry & EM relativity confirms SR, your education starts here:- http://en.wikiped...c_effect
Re: Hafele–Keating
Couldnt use SE because there was no interferometry or EM signalling, clearly you HAVENT read their paper!
johanfprins claimed about the results Implying Hafele–Keating are guilty of fraud by interfering with atomic clocks & fabricating readings, what conspiracy here ?
Clocks provided numerical output & confirmed asymmetrical SR!
johanfprins blurted
Why, what's wrong with all clocks sync'ed with ground before takeoff ?
Your integrity please ?
johanfprins
I have read it and analysed it. I state again that if their conclusion is correct it actually violates the LT, not confirms it.
You do not have to be a fraud to subconsciously manipulate your data to get what you expect to get.
Nothing! If you do not have to again adjust them, it proves that time-dilation as derived from SR does not occur; and that Haefele-and Keating reached the wrong conclusion.
Have you got any!!
ValeriaT
johanfprins
QED is the utter the pinnacle of BS; even worse than the BCS model which is also based on the same BS of QED. QED is based on Bohr's hallucination called complementarity. This is not required since light and all matter consist of electromagnetic wave-energy. There are no particles to be "compliment" the waves
ValeriaT
johanfprins
Mike_Massen
Why are you so dogmatically attached to view there's no asymmetrical SR effect, even to extent of CLAIM Hafele_Keating 'subconsciously' altered readings on the 4 atomic clocks AND the printed records just to follow consensus in the early 70's ? Pretty LAME that !
Cant you see johanfprins, there is a huge preponderance of evidence that doesn't favour your dogmatic view one little bit !
What is odd, you shift to want to compare qualifications, isnt analysis better !?
Asymmetrical SR is well documented and much experimental evidence, yet there is no evidence for your view, why is that ?
You claim integrity, demonstration please ?
johanfprins
Yes, provided that the analysis is based on data which cannot be contaminated by other effects.
Because these experiments were not done in gravity-free space as they must be done to test SR.
Where does my integrity come into this? No person with integrity will try and bully another person as you are trying here to do to me.
Mike_Massen
johanfprins offered yet more unclear issues for argument are you implying there is an interaction between GR and SR effects as 'contamination' if not then what 'contamination' is most likely other than subconscious ?
AND that all experiments which show GR and SR are arithmetically linear are also incorrect, how so ?
Then what is your hypothesis then that offers a realistic alternative ?
johanfprins mumbled Have you heard of the word hypocrisy, care to refresh yourself re your claims & insults of me & others on this thread since day one - how is that evidence of your integrity ?
Gone back on claiming Sagnac effect misuse have you ?
johanfprins
johanfprins
johanfprins mumbled You demonstrated it very well on this thread. If ever I did not understand this word I now do: Hypocrisy = Mike Massen.
Mike_Massen
Why are you ignorant of the large amount of experiments ?
johanfprins cant understand differential analysis when I asked johanfprins forgot the precision of GPS with Why not email the physicist employed by the Naval authority that manages GPS corrections ?
johanfprins sputtered Why are you ignoring prior experiments with high speed moving radioactive atoms, there are many, why dont you open up your reading ?
Bony Head ?
johanfprins
Why are you ignoring prior experiments with high speed moving radioactive atoms, there are many, why dont you open up your reading ? There is not a single experiment which was done while ensuring that there is NO change in gravity.
Mike_Massen
johanfprins makes odd claims re theoretical/experimental logic What do you interpret as maximum experimental bound of "NO change" ?
ie.
Implies you claim even a small delta_g has significant effect on SR, as you claim you know this then surely you have made an expert calculation between the differential of delta_g vs delta_v to delineate GR from SR in terms of experimental assessment, what then is your uppermost delta_g to qualify ?
johanfprins its Physics !!!
johanfprins
Simple logic should also tell you that after a time-interval t' on the other clock the distance as calculated on this clock to the first clock is v*t'.
Even more logical is the fact that the one clock cannot be further from the other than the other is from this clock. Thus if at a distance D apart the time on the first clock is t and on the other clock is t', one MUST have that
D=v*t=v*t':
This tells you in no uncertain terms that t MUST be equal to t': i.e. THAT SIMPLE LOGIC TELLS YOU THAT THEY CANNOT KKEEP DIFFERENT TIMES!
Clearly, logic is not your strong point and therefore I am wasting my valable time when arguing with you. So I hope this is not goodbye but farewell.
Mike_Massen
a. Observation with
b. Mathematics with
c. Hypothesis &
d. Experiment, interpretation, go to a. above
It is NOT based upon simplistic static logic (to suit feeble minds).
johanfprins continued simplistic waffle Is this your best Daffynition ?
How does that narrow 'simple logic' predict:-
- Universal speed limit 'c'
- Lorentz Factor & how not to apply it
- Proper Time as maths application to determine SR effect ?
Please focus on key question of your claim to assess "NO change" in gravity ie (d)g
What's your max (d)g bound to allow minimal change affecting SR observation in a suitable experiment Eg Car park, runway ?
johanfprins
As usual you do not know what you are talking about. Just take you first statement quoted just above: "Universal speed limit".
The Lorentz transformation mandates that the speed of light must always be equal to c relative to any moving object. This means that you can NEVER have light moving with a speed v plus c into an object moving with speed v,
You will notice that in the analyses done in all these experiments which you so religiously want to believe, it is assumed that light approaching an object moving with speed v head-on, can approach this object with speed v plus c; or can recede with a speed c minus v. If you can do the mathematics, which I doubt, you will find that this violates the Lorentz transformation: Why? Because you are applying the Galilean transformation to light-speed and thus violating Einstein's second postulate.
To even try to explain SR to you is a waste of my valuable time!
Mike_Massen
You write as if you are trying to apply LF equally to a non accel. reference frame to one which is or has been accelerated, isnt that Wrong ?
Isnt the relative non-accelerated reference frame THE preferred reference frame ?
Experiments so far, lets see who is 'religious' in their denial of SR:-
GPS
You claim to not know how its reset & claim GR & SR cant be separated arithmetically.
Hafele-Keating
You claim both of them AND the recorders 'subconsciously' altered results.
Recent experiments & radioactive atoms.
You claim there should be "NO change" in gravity BUT
You REFUSE to show the maximum delta g is allowed to be to show definitive SR effect & try to sidestep it !
Why not converge & show maximum (delta)g at least as a good step ?
johanfprins
All inertial reference frames are equal: There is no preferred reference frame since this will be in violation of Einstein's very first postulate! It is just incredible that a person like you who have no clue what you are talking about keeps on coming back.
Obviously the experiments must be done within constant gravity.
Mike_Massen
johanfprins Still hasn't indicated what the uncertainty level of this 'constant' has to be to separate influence of delta g from an observed effect of SR ?
Claim you have seen all SR experiments with recent stable & precise atomic clocks at lower speeds in large car parks & runways BUT,
You still haven't stated the maximum level of 'constant' as any mature physicist knows there is no such paradigm as 'constant' in measurement frameworks !
So on a disused runway near Bristol in UK, g is ~ 9.81m/s^2 what then is the allowed maximum variation - to how many significant digits to qualify as 'constant' ?
And why do you digress and diverge instead of being smart & converge on this crucial experimental detail you can factor into the theoretical calculations ?
Why are you suspicious so intently on all experiments & especially the ongoing GPS operation of decades which proves SR is real ?
ValeriaT
johanfprins
When they analyse these results by assuming that light can travel at speeds c plus v or c-v, they will get wrong results even if the gravity is 100% the same. A stupid analysis gives wrong results.
I am not suspicious! The time-rates on two clocks travelling with a constant speed relative to one another can according to Einstein's own first postulate NOT keep different time. If you want to believe they can, you must first reject Einstein.
Mike_Massen
You are missing the key issue of how they get there !
Of course this can never happen can it, in order to make this experiment functional they both start in the same IRF at SOME point & THEN one of them is accelerated, that accelerated RF is no longer an IRF. This is Einstein's SR which you strenuously object to & has been verified many times.
Along with educating you re Sagnac & how its easy to understand, when you claimed no-one understands it, your education continues with:-
http://en.wikiped..._paradox
&
http://en.wikiped...lativity
&
http://en.wikiped...per_time
Where is Einstein wrong then ?
johanfprins
If the time difference is caused by acceleration and deceleration then give me the bloody formula for this. I do not see ANY acceleration term in the formula for "time-dilation" obtained from SR. So there cannot be any time-dilation when two clocks travel with a constant speed relative to one another! Finally you realised this. Bravo!
Mike_Massen
Just look at the links PLEASE, SR is a special case of GR, the time dilation as real phenomena pops out, just READ the links and by the equivalence principle it makes perfect sense as it is derived.
You claim asymmetric SR is only perception - WRONG.
Read and study the links, esp the DETAILS re Proper Time calculations...
Asymetrical SR as derived from GR with the equivalence principle works, there is no need for an explicit acceleration term in these formulae it is implicit by virtue of the derivation, wakey wakey...!
So instead of all your excuses & distractions re:-
1. GPS
2. Hafele_ Keating
3. radioactive atoms in motion
4. atomic clock tests of SR in car parks
All above have accelerated *and* de-accelerated the calculations re this effect are rather well described in the link re Proper_Time, if you open your eyes you will see there need be no specific issue re acceleration as the velocity is reached and implicit re equivalence principle...
night night
johanfprins
Mike_Massen
- insults
- claiming recorded data is 'subconsciously' altered
- ignoring a need that "Constant" gravity needs experimental qualification
- Expecting to only test in intergalactic space, where gravity still exists
- Claiming ALL other's analyses are wrong when YOU can get the data directly !
This long series of dialectic with your psychoses does look as if you are grasping for ways to PROTECT your notion & ignore experimental evidence as much as you can.
There is nothing definitive in any of your objections.
Integrity, get the base data from any of the 30 or so experiments of last 40 years & do the analyses yourself without resorting to claim it need "Constant" gravity, which is an experimental paradigm you refuse to qualify !
Practice !
johanfprins
Yes if I am not attacked by people who claim the imposssible, and then only after many altercations admit that two clocks moving with a constant speed relative to one another are both stationary within an inertial reference frame and can therefore not keep time at different rates.
The formula for so-called SR time dilation was deived for such clocks and must thus have another interpretation than that the the clocks keep time at different rates.
I know what the correct interpreation of this formula is, and have tried for years to publish it. I am at present again writing it up, hopefully in a simpler manner, so that even the Orwellian swine in charge of theoretical physics might be able to understand it.
Mike_Massen
"In science, relevant experimental facts supersede theoretical arguments"
I am stunned you hand-wave away so MANY SR experiments with accusations of subconscious alterations or wrong analyses yet have NEVER provided one of your own ?
You said earlier "its easy to prove" !
Why not focus on the design of an experiment if and only if you are so certain the 30 or so experiments that independently prove SR up till now are wrong in all the various dubious ways you claim ?
My youngest is also about to embark on relativity, so you might want to explain to him (WITHOUT INSULT PLEASE) what is wrong with the explanation on this link:-
http://www.phys.u...adox.htm
And if you are unable to answer all those SIMPLE questions I have asked then respectfully, I think you need to see your aged care doctor re variants of Alzheimers :-(
night night
Eikka
Nope, because two separate identical things cannot converge back to one thing in one location without breaking the conservation of energy.
Whereas quantum mechanical systems can demonstratably do this. For example, a mechanical oscillator can maintain a superposition of two different physical modes of vibration which means that its individual atoms appear in two different points of space simultaneously.
It seems that your definition of a "physical thing" is somehow lacking or naive.
johanfprins
Cheers for now!
johanfprins
I am going to ask you and your youngest a question at a time: Maybe your youngest should answer these questions, since she/he has probably inhereted your brains: This will explain why you now have none!
If the twin who has left does not decelerate and turn around, how old will she be, at any instant in time during the journey, compared to her twin who stayed behind?
Mike_Massen
Any person involved with discussion and/or dialectic who makes the claim, which you have, that you know more about special relativity than I will ever know, has therefore put the onus on themselves as a self-styled teacher & source of education to explain.
But instead you want to diverge & waste time with When clearly you therefore accept the twin who leaves has already accelerated but instead want to add a hypothetical to cause divergent argument !
I will ask you again what is your interpretation of the proposition on this link, as a whole:-
http://www.phys.u...adox.htm
Perhaps I should make it easy for you, can you possibly focus on the geometry ?
Are you able in fact, even a little, to be able to converge without making insults ?
Eg1
Have you seen your Doctor & had tests for cholesterol, amyloid-beta & any genetics which may predispose you to any form of alzheimers ?
johanfprins
I ask you again, and will try and make it simpler so that even YOU might be able to understand it: Let the moving twin accelerate in one direction, then turn around and move past the other twin at a constant speed v, which need not be very high so that the twin's ages are not yet signifibcantly different (if they are different as only a fool will claim): The twins then synchronise their clocks while they are still looking about the same age. If the twin leaving the other twin behind keeps moving with this speed for 40 years, will this twin, according to SR, have aged more than the other twin from the instant that they have synchronised their clocks? This is a simple question!
Mike_Massen
You are doing it again, diverging.
You claim to be a theoretical physicist, fine but, are you a good one?
have you ability to analyse data without insults ?
All GOOD theoretical physicists can exercise mental flexibility to analyse experimental results, yet all you can say about such data is:- Since they had data recorders & you have access to that data & question I have asked of you is long before any issue of passing from IRF to NIRF in your last few posts then I ask WHY are you NOT able to use your mindset to PROGRESS an analysis of existing experimental data ?
There are some 30 SR experiments, not one it seems is able to be analysed by you, even a little, without distraction or insults.
You have neglected:-
What is wrong with the proposition, ie the geometry on this link ?
http://www.phys.u...adox.htm
And
What problem do you have thinking analytically about any experimental data ?
johanfprins
Let me reframe the question without using twins. Two persons born on different planets pass each other with a constant speed on two spaceships and synchronise their clocks: Which one will age faster than the other during the subsequent time of say 40 years?
Mike_Massen
Long before you raised the issue in your last post, I asked you about the 30 or so experiments which confirm SR, all of which you have sidestepped - WHY ?
Why cant you, as a claimed theoretical physicist with integrity, offer analyses on data from any of the 30 or so experiments ?
Have you a problem with time sequence ?
These experiments go back decades, where is ONE of your analyses that does not rely on claims the experimenters "subconsciously altered the results" ?
Clearly any issue of speed depends on the origin of the frame of reference whether inertial or otherwise, so please deal with the much earlier question I raised instead of meaningless divergence which does not deal with experimental data...
Please reread yours and my earlier posts in the last few days.
NOW, please deal with my much earlier questions and with INTEGRITY you claim to follow.
johanfprins
This is what I want to do; but it is obvious that your physics-logic is so out of kelter that I first have to ask you some questions. The question I asked just above is simple: Why do you not want to answer it? A lack of INTEGRITY I suppose!
Mike_Massen
WHY are you not able to offer AT LEAST ONE analysis of ANY of the experiments of the last 40 years or so ?
Why does it suit your bloated ego to claim:-
"The experimenters 'subconsciously' altered their data" ?
Why didnt you just get data from DECADES ago and perform the analysis & so long ago ?
Whats wrong with your approach, your thinking, your analysis ?
Why do you insist on showing you are feebly behind the times ?
johanfprins
You see things already went wrong 100 years ago when Einstein, after brilliantly concluding that the speed of light must be c relative to ALL moving bodies, then assumed that light approaching a moving body can do so at a speed c-v when "chasing" the body and with a speed c v when moving into an approaching body: continued
johanfprins
All the analyses which you refer to have been done by mixing Galilean relativity, according to which the speed of light can be c-v and/or c plus v, with the Lorentz-transformation according to which the speed of light relative to all moving bodies MUST ALWAYS BE JUST c.
Obviously the analyses, on which you want to force me to waste my valuable time, MUST all therefore be wrong!
So will you now be honest enough to answer my question above?
Mike_Massen
I've NEVER suggested you REPEAT analyses of others by using THEIR assumptions EVER, show INTEGRITY please.
ie.
Get raw data (before ANYONE'S analysis) on at least ONE of the 30 experiments of the last 40 years which test SR & analyse afresh, INTEGRITY demands it.
Raw data re clock rates of moving or stationary clocks is just raw data no odd assumptions!
ie.
You know the path of each clock, you have the recorded data why dont you share YOUR analysis NOT based on other's assumptions ?
You CLAIMED you did this, where & what does it show ?
Prior onus is on YOU, show a critique of prior experiments, there is NO onus on me to render opinion on hypotheticals when you haven't done your F.CKING job yet!
johanfprins
Not as easy as that. Their data does not give me all the information I need to make an analysis.
No I do not They did not have gravitometers or accelerometers on the their vehicles. I found their experiments and analyses to be flawed. Furthermore I do not think it is possible to disentangle those data caused by gravity and acceleration from all the data.
There is an easier path to just argue about SR without having to disentangle other effects caused by gravity and acceleration. We can proceed with this if you will F-ing answer the simple question I have asked above.
Mike_Massen
I dont claim to be an expert in special relativity, YOU CLAIM to "know more than I will ever know", which is a very stupid EGOTISTICAL claim!
Yet, you try to distract from having done BASIC analytical work in the last 40 years & keep excusing it. You realise YOU are going around in circles.
SR does not require knowledge of acceleration in formulae!
Gravitometers can only be deemed necessary if you have a maximum bound where gravitational variations expect to impact on SR. Of course if you REALLY are a 'theoretical physicist' then you can work backward from experimental results to determine the max variation in gravitational readings to be of significance, what are these?
For the experiments done on an airfield near Bristol UK, which you CLAIM to "know all about" what is the tolerable differential in gravitational data which might impact (even a little) on atomic clock readings?
Physics is based on experimental data not ego bluff!
johanfprins
I dont claim to be an expert in special relativity, YOU CLAIM to "know more than I will ever know", which is a very stupid EGOTISTICAL claim! Your raving and ranting on this thread proves that this calaim is not egotistical; but just a statement of fact.
Any experiment that gets a result that violates the most basic aspect of relativity: i.e. that different inertial refrence frames are the same and must give the same experimental results, MUST be flawed and totally wrong. To claim that two clocks moving with a constant speed relative to one another keep different time rates is just as impossible as to claim that an elephant can wipe its arse with a piece of confetti. You are the one who is going around in circles by refusing to answer a simple question.
continued:
johanfprins
When you do an experiment in a real scientific manner you will measure all parameters that can have an impact. If you do not since you have decided beforehand, in terms of the dogma you want to believ, that this parameter will not have an impact, you are not a competent scientist, but an idiot.
Only a fool will try and work backwards from incomplete data. We know that gravity affects clock-rate and we SUSPECT that acceleration does the same. Thus by doing an experiment without continuously recording gravity and acceleration is the same as f--ting against thunder.
johanfprins
Then why are YOU ego bluffing all the time on this thread?
Mike_Massen
It is part of the essential analytic technique to assess potential for ANY external influence. To ignore this step is sheer incompetence.
In the case of the runway experiment acceleration is known, I recall it was recorded, gravitation can be assumed to be 9.81m/s^2 to within 1 part in 100,000 in such a small area, I understand it was also assessed.
Why do you wish to ignore experimental history ?
Why do you maintain the claim experimenters 'subconsciously' altered data, there were too many people involved ?
Where is the INTEGRITY by making stupid claims which have no evidence ?
johanfprins
If one clock keeps slower time than the other while they are moving at a constant velocity relative to one another it will be proof that Einstein's first postulate is wrong. Maybe it is wrong, but I doubt it very much.
BTW: If you synchronise two clocks and after a time t1 on the first clock the second clock shows a time t2>t1, which clock is slower than the other one? Try to have INTEGRITY by answering this simple question, by not dishonestly dodging it as you have done to my previous question.
Mike_Massen
1.
I've never claimed to be a theoretical physicist & dont keep track of the articles I've read over the last 30 years.
I am not your secretary.
2.
You claim to know more about SR "then I will ever know", so why questions.
You are not my teacher.
johanfprins claimed IDIOT. Its called "solving for the unknown" with differential calculus YOU can work out WHAT value of (delta)g might spill over in SR. You refuse or cant do analysis re (delta)g variance affecting SR records !
johanfprins lumbered a contrived example You have worded this badly, not 'after a time' you need to review the conditions 'at a time' in coordinate or the proper time of c1,c2!
My advice is to find a local theoretical physicist who has a good grounding in differential calculus.
johanfprins
Neither am I your slave to drop all I am doing to convince you that you are an idiot. I do not care that you are one, and I do not care to prove to you that I am not one like you. I have far more important fish to fry.
In order to prove to you that you do not have the logic to understand anything in physics.
Thank God for that since you are not teachable.
I know more about differential calculus than an ape like you can learn in three lifetimes.
This thread is NOT about SR: So just F-off!
Noumenon
Let me ask a question then. Lets say you pass light through a polariod film, to polarize it in some direction. Then you setup another such sheet parallel to the first but turned at an angle, say 30*. One can then calculate the amount of em energy that gets absobed or passes through,... say 75% gets through.
Continued,....
Noumenon
Noumenon
Perhaps you could explain, because Minkowski never claimed that. Within a particular IFR the time coordinate is orthogonal to the spacial coordinates, so time does not change with position, and therefore simultaneity is not violated (within the same IRF).
From the perspective of an observer determinng the 'proper time' of a moving object, it is a mixture of time and space coordinates of the observer, and thus based on the objects relative velocity,.. not position.
Noumenon
Another misrepresentation. IF Einstein assumed that light can chase an observer at c - v , it was only in using reductio-ad-adsurdum to show that Galilean relativity must be wrong, and that either time dilation and or spacial contraction must occur, depending on experimental arrangement.
johanfprins
Light is not necessarily absorbed and released in photon-packets. A laser emits a SINGLE coherent light-wave with a MUCH larger energy than that of a photon.
What Planck has ACTUALLY discovered is that one cannot have a source or an absorber which can emit or absorb a single coherent-wave which has LESS energy than that of a photon. He DID NOT discover that this photon cannot be sliced into two or more parts while it is not being emitted or being absorbed.
When the photon moves through the polariser set-up, it does actually split up into two parts (just as it does when it moves through a double slt diffractometer). To measure the photon, one needs a detector: But it cannot detect less energy than that of a photon. When the photon resonates with a detector it sliced parts must collapse for the detector to observe it.
johanfprins
Nope! You are half-witted correct. To be absorbed by a detector, the photon must resonate with the detector: The PROBABILITY that it resonates with a detector at a position in space is higher when its intensity is higher at this position. But once it resonates to be absorbed, no matter how large the wave is, and no matter out of how many sliced pieces it exists, the whole wave MUST collapse into the detector; since the detector cannot detect less energy than this. Thus the PROBABILITY that a detector will collapse the sliced photon-wave is 75% higher for a dtector on the exit side of the impinging photon-wave than on the entrance side.
The same for double-slit diffraction: The photon actually splits into two parts as any coherent light-wave can do. These parts interfere so that the single photon-wave has a diffracted intensity distribution when it reaches the observation screen.
johanfprins
Consecutive photon-waves form many spots, and since the PROBABILITY of resonance is higher for each impinging photon-wave where its intensity is higher, the spots eventually coalesce to form a picture of the wave-intensity each photon-wave has had when arriving at the screen.
If you now try to be clever in a stupid manner, you will place two detectors at the slits to record through whivh slit each photon has moved. The photon which has actually moved through BOTH slits now has a 50-50 probability to resonate with either one of the detectors.
johanfprins
The fact is that by collapsing the photon waves at the slits, each one does not consist of two sliced pieces anymore; which can interfere to develop a diffracted intensity: AND Voila! There is no diffraction pattern anymore.
Take: E^2=pc^2 (mc^2)^2: For a photon m=0; and e=(hbar)(omega) and p=(hbar)k:
Thus:
k=(omega)/c: The latter is the relationship between frequency and the wave-number FOR any and ALL coherent light waves NO MATTER WHAT THEIR ENERGIES ARE. It is also valid for a photon wave since (hbar)cancels out.
Substitute the standard operators for momentum (-iDEL) and energy (id/dt) into E^2=C^2P^2: You obtain Maxwell's equation for a coherent light wave; which is valid for ANY energy; also that of a photon-wave!
johanfprins
I dislike the concept of "proper time@ since it bonly serves to confuse the issue. Position does play an important role: See further below.
johanfprins
The fact is that at any instant in time, the positions within IRF(m) and IRF(s) all overlap. If you could stop time, and teleport around you will find that ALL clocks within both IRF's will show the EXACT same time.
When an event occurs within IRF(m) at coordinates x(m) and t(m), then at the position within IRF(s) which overlaps with the position x(m) at the same time t(m), an observer will observe the event simultaneously with its occurrance within IRF(m).
The Lorentz transformation, however , gives the coordinates and time as referenced to the origin O(s)of IRF(s) and this information can only reach O(s) with the speed of light which is the same within both IRF(m) and IRF(s).
See below
johanfprins
If IRF(m) moves away from IRF(s), the Lorentz-transformed time in IRF(s) t(s)>t(m) and the position is also further away. Thus, even though the event occurs simultaneously within both IRF(m) and IRF(s) at time t(m), the time for the event as referenced at the origin O(s) is later: The event only manifests within IRF(s) after it manifested within IRF(m).
The interesting aspect of this is that when the event occurs within IRF(m) while the origin of IRF(m) approaches the origin of IRF(s), the Lorentz-transformed-time within IRF(s) is BEFORE the event occurs within IRF(m).
continued
johanfprins
Now send a twin(m) away within a spacewship IRF(m) at a speed v: All the events occurring within IRF(m) of this twin occurs within the future of the twin(s) who stayed at home. If after 20 years, twin(m) turns around and comes back, he/she is approaching twin(s) and every event that occurs within the spaceship of twin(m) now occurs within the past of twin(s).
If you add up the time at the end, you will find that the twins experienced the exact same amount of time.
Note, however, that I have neglected acceleration effects!
johanfprins
As usual you do not know your physics. Go to Einstein's popular book which he wrote in 1916, and look at his explanation for non-simutaneity. He explitly states that an oberser on the train will move INTO the light coming from the front (to do this c v) and AWAY from the light coming from the back (to do this c-v), and that this is the reason why the observer will conclude that the two lightning flashes were not simultaneous.
Kaku als wrote a book about Einstein is which he describes how a motorcyclest rides into an oncoming light wave (c v).
Mike_Massen
Can you explain ?
Can you explain the longer decays radioactive ions in synchrotrons recorded by several experimental physicists ?
The continuous operation of Global Position Satellites which have their clock rates set to account for General & Special relativity are all wrong as well ?
And all the other 30 or so experiments of the last 40 plus years all produce data that you claim is "subconsciously altered" ?
How is it you are the one who claims experiments are all fake ?
You have claimed to have background in theoretical physics, interesting, so has anyone who has been at school and done any physics even before high school, you are therefore in good company :-)
Can you maybe focus on one special relativity experiment in detail ?
johanfprins
I have never claimed this: I have claimed that the experiments have not tested SR which does not involve acceleration and gravity.
Let us now stick to Heisenberg's so-called "uncertainty relationship".
Noumenon
Why are you changing the experiment? The polarizer experiment is fundamentally different from the two-slit experiment. Please stick to the experiment as I have described it.
The polaroid film can be used as a DETECTOR when it absorbs the em energy, by measuring it's temperature say.
By your own admittance then, the wave-packet collapses upon this detector, the polaroid film, if absorbed,... otherwise passes through. There is no interference of these two possibilities, since in principal one can determine which path the photon took.
Thus, the wave-function (^2) interpretation is of probability, not energy.
Noumenon
The time dilation effect of SR cannot be explained away 'to correct for the time for light to reach one observer or the other'. Way before Maxwell and Einstein, it was known that the speed of light was finite, and thus that was already being taken into account.
Because c is finite, the components of any 4-vector which describes an invariant physical event with a Lorentzian metric (-, + , + , +), must transform to another reference frame, according to the Lorentz Transformation. Each Component.
This means, that in order to maintain invariance of a physically measurable event,
both the time and spatial components get mixed together, from the perspective of an observer. This is what brings about time dilation or spatial contraction.
You can't compare two twins to ask which time has dilated, unless you bring them back together,... by then you have performed more Lorentz transforms on one than the other, and thus the experiment is asymmetrical.
johanfprins
Since it is a light-wave its intensity is energy: It only seems as if it is a prob-distibution when many of them collapse
Noumenon
I don't have that book, can you quote it verbatim?
IF it is assumed that Galilean relativity is correct,... that is, that velocities are additive (c-v, c+v) even approaching c, then since light is fixed irrespective of observer, it must be that time dilation or length contraction occurs.
Noumenon
The cosmic rays penetrate the atmosphere deeper, so while yes they don't "feel themselves as if they have aged slower", they have according to an observer, and thus have according to us.
johanfprins
Eisntein Loretz-transormed (LT) a second on a stationary clock onto a moving clock and obtained that on the moving clock an interval tau has passed given by (beta)(tau). Since beta>>1, E concluded that this clock keesp slower time than the stationary clock, notwithstanding the fact that a larger time interval on onme clock as compared to another demands that the clock with the larger time interval must have kept time at a faster rate. To determine what the moving clock is doing relative to the staionary clock, he should have transformed 1 second on the moving clock onto the stationary clock. Copntinued
johanfprins
The mistake Einstein made was not to use the FULL LT: Both time and position: If he did that he would have found that after a time t the clocks have moved a distance D apart: Then according to the stat-clock, the mov-clock would be (beta)D from it, and that the time on the mov-clock will be (beta)*(v/c^2)t. Now say at this distance D, the mov-clock abruptly stops and moves back with the same speed: The LT still gives the same distance (beta)D, but the time on the moving clock is now (MINUS)(beta)(beta)(v/c^2)t. The time has jumped from future-time to past-time. When the clocks meet up these times cancel.
johanfprins
p 26: "If an observer sitting in the position Mp in the train did not possess this velocity, then he would remain permanently at M, and the light rays emitted by the flashes of lightning at A and B would reach him simultaneously: i.e. they would meet just where he is situated. Now in reality (considered with reference to the railway embankment) he is hastening towards the beam of light coming from B, whilst he is riding ahead of the beam of light coming from A. Observers who take the railway train as their reference-body must therefore come to the conclusion that the lightning flash B took place earlier than the lightning flash A."
From the mouth of the genius himself.
What does "hastening towards" mean other than c PLUS v and what does "riding ahead" mean other than c MINUS v?
Noumenon
You are contradicting yourself. The polaroid film does not reflect 25% or pass 75%, it can be arranged to either ABSORBE 100% of the wave-packet energy OR pass 100% of the wave-packet.
It is NOT like the two-slit experiment, which is why I choose it here, ...the polaroid can DETECT the photon by absorbing the measurable energy, thus by your own statement, "which collapses them into one.". The film IS the DETECTOR, therefore the classical interpretation is wrong for singular wave-packets, and the M.Born must be the case.
johanfprins
owever, in text books the muon is incorrectly modelled by invoking length contraction; which does not occur. By just stating that the muon decays at a height H above earth and therefore can only reach earth when the time it takes to reach the earth is less than its stationary decay time, AND then applying the Lorentz transformation, the LT height is (beta)*H which is higher than H, and it sit LT lifetime is longer by an amount (beta)(v/c^2)H. This higher height and longer lifetime is observed on earth even though the muon decays at a height H which is less than v*(tau) where (tau) is the decay time of a stationary muon.
johanfprins
So? What is your problem? Even for the "probability distribution" the wave collapses when being absorbed! A photon is NOT a "wave-packet". Did they not teach you that a wave-packet is NOT a single coherent wave? Where in hell did you learn your physics?
Noumenon
OK, I now see the text Here. Yes, it is a poor choice of wording.
Einstein has stated of course (probably earlier in that text) that all observers see the speed of light as c, irrespective of their velocity, therefore, one should interpret what he is saying with that in mind....
He is not saying that the speed of light as seen by M' is slower or faster coming from A or B. He is saying that the TIMING of those EVENTS are different as determined by M',...
"...Hence the observer will see the beam of light emitted from B earlier than he will see that emitted from A - Einstein"
The Minkowski description shows explicitly that the spatial coordinates of two relative moving observers are not congruent, thus absolute simultaneity is false.
Noumenon
We're talking about polaroid film, so it should be obvious given the context, what I was saying.
johanfprins
So why does he violate his own postulate and why do ALL textbooks do the same: As you should know if you knew your physics: Which you have demonstrtaed time and again the you do not.
I am sick and tired of your semantics to worm yourself out of positions in order to defend your blind-stupid faith in mainstreanm dogma. You will NEVER be able to think outside of the HEAVY eyeflaps you are wearing.
Einsnein's explanation of non-simultaneity is WRONG. His deduction of time dilation is WRONG. And his deduction of length contraction is also WRONG.
This does NOT mean that he was not brilliant to notice that the Lorentz transformation demands that the speed of light is the same relative to ALL moving objects. Why he then violated this fact is a mystery!
Mike_Massen
Case 1. Radioactive ions in trap have expected half life Th
Case 2. Radioactive ions in synchrotron at high v have
longer Th by OUR experience in accordance with Lorentz Factor, prove's Special Relativity & confirmed frequently. Of course the time ions experience in THEIR IRF does not change thats why its called Special "RELATIVITY" !
Odd thing is you agree with this yet do not accept even a little that GPS HAS TO work with SR. You claimed before when clocks are 'brought together' they will be the same - this shows ignorance of how they are set up & administered & continue to WORK for our benefit reliably !
Please look at GPS closely & get an education & save time...
johanfprins
No it is NOT obvious at all. What do you mean by polaroid film? Any film that absorbs light totally will collapse a photon when absorbing it! So what?
johanfprins
Also correct! If you are not so stupid, you would have realised that I never argued with this at all. Thank God! The penny has FINALLY dropped. Congratulations.
I did not: I only disagreed that the SR correction is required since the clock in the sattelite is actually slowing down.
Noumenon
You're being abuse. Reread my original post of the polarizer experiment. The photon concept cannot be explained via the classical Maxwell wave notion.
If you pass polarized light through another polarizer at an angle to the polarization of the light, one can determine the amount of light intensity and thus energy that gets through or is absorbed by the polarizer,.. see Malus_Law.
When the intensity is lowered so that a single photon is emitted one at a time, however, one can no longer say that (i.e.) 25% of the photon was absorbed,... so, one then requires a Particle interpretation of light, in that either it is absorbed or it is not. One requires a probability interpretation for many such trials,.. 25% of the time a photon will be absorbed.
Noumenon
If you perform the experiment twice using two EM waves at different frequencies yet with the SAME intensity, and thus carrying the SAME energy,... one can see that the EM at the higher frequency will cause electrons to eject with more momentum,.. AND there will be less electrons ejected. This implies that the EM at higher frequency contains fewer photons.
Another case where the wave picture of EM fails is in Compton scattering, at low intensity, and another in the case of Thermal equilibrium of EM and a gas.
johanfprins
Correct! It does not require that the photon first split up, like any coherent wave does, and then collapses when it passes through, or when it does not pass through. Thus, you are correct that a probability is involved, but not as interpreted according to the Voodoo of wave-particle duality and complementarity.
Or do you believe Wheeler's Voodoo-concept of what we do now changes the past?
johanfprins
Just as I have derived above that the photon is modelled by Maxwell's equation.
johanfprins
Why should it depend on the intensity when a bound electronic-state can only absorb a photon as Planck has discovered. Obviously the energy of a photon-wave is determined by its frequency: What has this to do with a "particle"?
When the pseudo-electron traps a photon, the photon becomes a stationary wave so that its energy adds to the mass-energy of the pseudo-electron. If this increase in mass-energy exceeds the rest-mass energy of an electron, an electron is ejected from the metal. The photo-electric effect is thus purely a wave-wave interaction owing to the absorbtion of a photon-WAVE: In the same manner as an atomic electron absorbs a light-wave.
johanfprins
These experiments do NOT prove that a photon is a separate "particle" which cannot be a coherent wave: Maxwell's equations prove that it must be a wave.
Mike_Massen
Eg. Sep 29 & Sep 24 & Sep 16 & 9 Sep So how is it you accept the issue re radioactive ions now & argued against SR before ?
Also I've asked before but, you have never commented on this explanation re geometry regarding SR, why?
http://www.phys.u...adox.htm
johanfprins
I have jsut finished a letter-paper on moving clock rates: This is the abstract:Simultaneous events are only possible within gravity-free space when identical perfect-clocks, even when moving relative to one another, keep time at exactly the same rate. Since it is known that events can occur simultaneously, there must be a global time-rate in gravity-free space. The mechanism responsible for relativistic time-dilation, even though a global time-rate must exist, is derived from the Lorentz-transfor-mation and explained. This mechanism requires transformation of both time- and distance-intervals. The decay-time of cosmic-ray muons is used as an example to show that the
johanfprins
Simultaneous events are only possible within gravity-free space when identical perfect-clocks, even when moving relative to one another, keep time at exactly the same rate. Since it is known that events can occur simultaneously, there must be a global time-rate in gravity-free space. The mechanism responsible for relativistic time-dilation, even though a global time-rate must exist, is derived from the Lorentz-transformation and explained. This mechanism requires transformation of both time- and distance-intervals. The decay-time of cosmic-ray muons is used as an example to show that the explanation found in text books, for the increase in decay-time, is wrong.
Mike_Massen
johanfprins still imagines NO. Not possible, gravity is everywhere, even if weak & everything is ALWAYS MOVING, its ALL RELATIVE !
You're starting out on a WRONG basis, wasting ALL our time.
Makes far more sense to 'solve for the unknown' in respect of maximum allowable gravitational field before SR is affected in ANY experiment by (d)g.
Now THAT algorithm would be really USEFUL.
Why not explain errors in this ?
http://www.phys.u...adox.htm
THEN, you can perhaps, consider these guys:-
http://en.wikiped...periment
Had integrity & professionalism to not 'subjectively alter data' from printouts, your claim of that is really NUTS & nicely CONVENIENT for you !
sigh
Mike_Massen
Please READ para below:-
http://en.wikiped...periment
Are you also claiming ALL other separate entities & their physics staff & students ALL collaborated & were subject to the same EQUAL 'subjective altering of data' ?
Do you know how you come across claiming ALL these people are dumb or lying but have EXPERIMENTAL evidence consistent over 25 plus years ?
I think your reaction to my posts shows much linguistic misunderstanding, you seem to be arguing against what you think I said not what I actually did say !
johanfprins
johanfprins
Clock Km passes clock Ks with speed v and they synchronise: After a time tm on Km, Km is a distance
Ds=v(tm)
from Ks. According to the LT, the time on clock Ks is ts where:
ts=(beta)tm
This is the "time-dilation" formula. BUT! One MUST LT BOTH time and space. According to the LT, Km is at a distance Dm from Ks where:
Dm=(beta)(v)(tm)=(beta)Ds.
Thus according to the LT the distance between the clocks when the time on Ks is ts, is larger than the distance between the clocks when Km reached the time tm.
Km did NOT keep time slower: The LT time on Ks is larger since Km is now further from Ks as it was when it showed the time tm. Thus, the time-difference HAS NOTHING to do with time dilation on Km, but by the fact that the LT time on Ks is the time on clock Km after it has moved further to also show the time ts at a distance Dm from Ks.
The clocks keep the same time!
johanfprins
You see it is closed-minded bigots like YOU who placed Galileo under house arrest; and who are even at present still keeping physics back.
Just accept it, you are an idiot and will die being an idiot!
Noumenon
The above LT is not in terms of Ks coordinates, and you have to be careful to state from 'who's perspective'.
dm = y(ds - v*ts) and ds = y(dm + v*tm) ,.... where y = gamma.
If you substitute to eliminate dm and ds in the above you can solve for ts,...
ts = y(tm + v*dm),... which would be the time of the event according to ts,.... of an event that occurred at tm according to Km.
At close to c, in the above, ks will determine a later time for the event than km, implying km is running slow.
johanfprins
Why do you have to go to differentials? The equations of the LT are NOT based on differentials! And where does ds (whatever it is) come into the picture? NOWHERE!
johanfprins
Logic demands that simultaneous events at different positions within gravity-free space can only occur when identical perfect-clocks, even when moving relative to one another, keep instantaneous time at exactly the same rate. Since it is known that events can occur simultaneously, there must be a global time-rate in gravity-free space. Relativistic-effects, which have been interpreted to date as being caused by "time-dilation" on moving clocks, are found to be caused by the comparison of non-simultaneous times on stationary and moving clocks which can be synchronized to simultaneously show identical times. The decay-time of cosmic-ray muons is used as an example to show that the explanation found in textbooks, for the increase in such a muon's decay-time relative to earth when it approaches earth at a high speed v, has nothing to do with "time-dilation" as this concept has been introduced by Einstein 100 years ago.
Noumenon
I'm not using differentials, i'm using YOUR variables Dm and Ds for distance, I just didn't capitalize the D's.
dm = y(ds - v*ts) and ds = y(dm + v*tm) ,.... where y = gamma,... (I took c = 1 here)
Substitute the 2nd equation into the 1st to find ts , where y = (1 - v^2/c^2)^-1/2 = gamma
dm = y(y(dm + v*tm) - v*ts),...
dm = y^2*dm + y^2*v*tm - y*v*ts,.... divide by y^2 ,...
dm/y^2 = dm + v*tm - v*ts/y,..... now since 1/y^2 = (1-v^2/c^2),...
dm - v^2*dm/c^2 = dm + v*tm - v*ts/y,.... subtract out dm,...
- v^2*dm/c^2 = v*tm - v*ts/y,... divide out by v,...
- v*dm/c^2 = tm - ts/y,....
ts/y = tm + v*dm/c^2,... multiply both sides by y (gamma)
ts = y(tm + v*dm/c^2) ----> the time on Ks of the event (the event being the time tm on Km, say of a explosion).
ts will show a later time than tm.
Mike_Massen
There is NO such place as "gravity-free space", what an immature concept, you are wasting our time with childish pursuits !
Are you pretending to have a thick skull with minimal neurons ?
Gravity free space is a dream - it DOESNT exist !
And yet you CLAIM to know more about SR then I do, what a laugh !
LOL
Why cant you focus on any of the 60 or so experimental results of SR and GR and methods of 'disentangling' them, why ONLY theory ?
Physics is SO MUCH MUCH more than your banal theory - where is there ANY analysis of ANY experiment that does NOT involve the CLAIM the experiments of so many people were "subjectively altered" the data ?
You come across as a paranoid schizophrenic with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) about THEORY, where is your understanding of PRACTICE & EXPERIMENTS already DONE ?
HA
Lets see you make sense of experimental data or are you so UNABLE to do that ?
Noumenon
A transformation equation means the left side represents one IRF and the right the other. You are using Km's time tm to derive Dm,... you need to use ts there instead of tm, plus take into account that Km is moving,... as was already required prior to SR to compare two events.
You should use ts time for Ds here, not tm!
Noumenon
Logic is not what determines that, definitions is what determines that,.... and the definition of "simultaneous" implies "wrt the SAME IRF",... otherwise such a relation has no logical meaning.
Noumenon
If you call event A the event when the two clocks passed and synced with ts = tm, and the event B some time later when Km reads tm,... then the Space-Time Interval between them is invariant and thus the SAME. It is therefore wrong to say ,...
johanfprins
Obviously the time ts will be later than tm since by the time ts is observed within Ks, the clock within Km has moved FURTHER away from the clock in Ks: So that it also MUST show this same later time equal to ts. The times ts and tm ARE NOT SIMULTANEOUS!
This what relativity is all about: Events that are simultaneous are not observed to be simultaneous UNLESS the observer is at the position at which the event is occurring.
Noumenon
If they are not observed to be simultaneous then it is meaningless to proclaim that they are.
johanfprins
johanfprins
johanfprins
This is the correct physics interpretation! Unless you want to believe in Voodoo: Which you have done time-and again on this forum.
Noumenon
johanfprins
Correct! I have used beta=(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2 all along. By synchronising clocks after they have been intially synchronised when time started, you choose an artifical origin for time and you can then get negative time intervals from the LT.
All this means is that the event is moving towards the observer instead of away from the observer. This is why a twin leaving the earth moves into the future, but when he/she moves back he/she is approaching from the past. These times cancel so that both twins will have the SAME age when again meeting up!
Obviously I have ignored any acceleration effects; if they play a part: Which I doubt!
johanfprins
So Einstein also talked BS when he claimed that two events within an IRF can be simultaneous even though they can be observed from a passing IRF not to be simultaneous?
Noumenon
You use +v or -v as I have done above. I think that you are "approaching from the past" in order to refute time dilation.
To any given observer A, in his IRF his motion is 100% in Time and zero in space, thus time can never be negative for him. From a different observer B, observer A's relative spatial motion in B's coordinate frame, takes away from A's time-component, thus again B's determination of A's time would not be negative.
Noumenon
No, he was stating a fact. Simultaneity is fundamentally observer dependent, and not an absolute concept.
johanfprins
Why do not at least try and use your three braincells (and that is giving you a HUGE credit). Take three clocks at a distance Dm apart moving past a clock Ks so that the centre-clock in Km coincides with the clock is Ks and they are3 synchronised.
Assume that simultaneous events are happening at this instance in time on all three clocks. Use the LT to calulate the times and postions of the other two clocks within Km as observed from the clock in Ks. What do you get?
If you cannot do this calculation, ask a grade 8 pupil to do it for you!
johanfprins
Only when the observer is moving relative to the simultaneous events. If not, the events remain simultaneous even if the observer see them as occurring at seperate times owing to he speed of light! Jeesh, my man, are you REALLY so slow?
BTW: Einstein's explanation of non-simultaneity (his train and lightning-flashes thought-experiment) is wrong, since an observer cannot move INTO a light beam or AWAY from a light beam. The relative speed of light to ANY observer is c!!
Noumenon
Noumenon
The is NO independent and absolute "the simultaneous events".
If two explosions occur at the same time ACCORDING TO observer O not moving relative to the explosions,... and two more observers, A and B at different velocities see these two events, ...it is possible given the arrangement, that A and B will not only disagree that the two explosions occured simultaneously, but may not even agree with each other over which explosion occurred first,... all three points of view equally justified and legitimate.
Yes, c is taken into account (as i've stated in this thread a few times), so observer O sees the two explosions as being simultaneous even if they occur at different distances in O's IRF.
johanfprins
Thank God that it SEEMS that you at least understand this! Although I do not think that you have yet been competent enough to understand the full implication!
johanfprins
There must be: If this were impossible then Einstein's argument that two simultaneous events are not observed to be simultaneous by an observer moving past is based on the false premise that two simultaneous events can occur; while "his holiness" Noumenon states that simultaneous events are not possible.
So what? The fact is still that two events occurring at two separate positions CAN OCCUR simultaneously; even when there is no observer. Any person who denies this is an ape!
So what are you trying to say? I have not disagreed with this. Try to THINK before posting further BS?
johanfprins
1. All IRF's are equivalent and must give the same results when doing the same experiment within any one of them: GENIUS.
2. The speed of light relative to ANY object must always be the same constant value c: GENIUS
3. Two events that occur simultaneously at two different positions within a single IRF, cannot be observed to be simultaneous from ANY position within a passing IRF: GENIUS
4. Thought experiment of train with two lightning strikes to explain non-simultaneity: BLUNDER (it violates point 2 above)
5. Conclusion that a moving clock keeps slower time than a clock relative to which it is moving: BLUNDER
6. Conclusion that a moving rod contracts: BLUNDER