Study shows religion is a potent force for cooperation, conflict
Across history and cultures, religion increases trust within groups but also may increase conflict with other groups, according to an article in a special issue of Science.
"Moralizing gods, emerging over the last few millennia, have enabled large-scale cooperation and sociopolitical conquest even without war," says University of Michigan anthropologist Scott Atran, lead author of the article with Jeremy Ginges of the New School for Social Research.
"Sacred values sustain intractable conflicts like those between the Israelis and the Palestinians that defy rational, business-like negotiation. But they also provide surprising opportunities for resolution."
As evidence for their claim that religion increases trust within groups but may increase conflict with other groups, Atran and Ginges cite a number of studies among different populations. These include cross-cultural surveys and experiments in dozens of societies showing that people who participate most in collective religious rituals are more likely to cooperate with others, and that groups most intensely involved in conflict have the costliest and most physically demanding rituals to galvanize group solidarity in common defense and blind group members to exit strategies. Secular social contracts are more prone to defection, they argue. Their research also indicates that participation in collective religious ritual increases parochial altruism and, in relevant contexts, support for suicide attacks.
They also identify what they call the "backfire effect," which dooms many efforts to broker peace. In many studies that Atran and Ginges carried out with colleagues in Palestine, Israel, Iran, India, Indonesia and Afghanistan, they found that offers of money or other material incentives to compromise sacred values increased anger and opposition to a deal.
"In a 2010 study, Iranians who regarded Iran's right to a nuclear program as a sacred value more violently opposed sacrificing Iran's nuclear program for conflict-resolution deals involving substantial economic aid, or relaxation of sanctions, than the same deals without aid or sanctions," they write. "In a 2005 study in the West Bank and Gaza, Palestinian refugees who held their 'right of return' to former homes in Israel as a sacred value more violently opposed abandoning this right for a Palestinian state plus substantial economic aid than the same peace deal without aid."
This dynamic is behind the paradoxical reality that the world finds itself in today: "Modern multiculturalism and global exposure to multifarious values is increasingly challenged by fundamentalist movements to revive primary group loyalties through greater ritual commitments to ideological purity."
But Atran and Ginges also offer some insights that could help to solve conflicts fueled by religious conviction. Casting these conflicts as sacred initially blocks standard business-like negotiation tactics. But making strong symbolic gestures such as sincere apologies and demonstrations of respect for the other's values generates surprising flexibility, even among militants and political leaders, and may enable subsequent material negotiations, they point out.
"In an age where religious and sacred causes are resurgent, there is urgent need for joint scientific effort to understand them," they conclude. "In-depth ethnography, combined with cognitive and behavioral experiments among diverse societies (including those lacking a world religion), can help identify and isolate the moral imperatives for decisions on war or peace."
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User comments
Sigh. Will they ever listen to those who already know we can be good and moral without a boogieman to threaten us. It's just not that hard to do. Loving one another is so much more direct without divisive gods standing in the way.
"Good is better than evil 'cause it's nicer" - Mammy Yokum
Instead of snarking, send this page to everyone in your address book. You may save a world from bad religion!
Of course, the same ideological cement has become a brake of the further evolution later. After all, in the same way, like so-called the scientific method, which replaced the religion during last two centuries. Every good thing becomes a dinosaur gradually.
Will dense aether model make peace and prosperity for humankind? Should we kill non beleivers or convert them?
But this done solely for the purpose if conquest. All religions want to conquer the world and are DESIGNED to do so. The ones which survived are merely BETTER at this.
All believers want you to give up your evil god and accept their obvious source of universal good. To do this they will proselytize, threaten, or wait patiently until they outnumber you and then attack. Or today they can outvote you.
In the beginning, it gave us comfort, community and purpose. The down side is it sticks like glue. By now we should know why we need to be compassionate and moral beings. We know so much more about our initial ignorance. Back then it was even fine to think the world was flat! We were nicely comforted by our beliefs. But religion hangs on and sabotages progress. Some of us get it, others are stuck.
I do not have a solution. I think we need to be compassionate and understanding, but we need to fix it before it kills us, the planet, or both.
The problem is not the principles, it's the people who use those ideas to acquire power and control over others.
What part of "love your neighbor as yourself" do you object to?
Which of the ten commandments to you find harmful?
In anticipation, 'you shall have no other gods' can be interpreted secularly to mean one should try not to let animal nature control your life. The second commandment suggests one should not deceive using God's name, and the third, resting on the 7th day has been demonstrated to have a positive influence on productivity.
Of the remaining 7 which ones make you chafe?
This IS the root of religionist power over others and it is an outrageous LIE. Neither your religion nor any other could exist without this LIE to sustain them.
The 10 commandments BEGIN with the insistence to believe in and worship YOUR god alone. Every other religion contains these same caveats. Every one claims that they are the ONLY source of goodness, peace, and morality. They ALL warn that the other religions are sources of evil.
One can imagine the problems this can cause among people.
Exclusivism is a necessity of any religion. Us vs them. You know what happened to the Israelites who wandered from the one true god don't you?
As a socialist, Auto must want violate the first, Govt is god to the socialist, and all the remaining commandments that prohibit the coveting and theft of property.
"All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense." (Lev 20:9 NLT)
This ones a little extreme:
"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death." (Lev 20:10 NLT)
Or this:
"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chron 15:12-13 NAB)
I have violated this one many times:
"If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through." Zech13:3
-So many Laws to break, so little time-
So far, you seem to want to make Govt god of all and you covet everyone's property and want to steal it.
"13 When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people, 14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 15 Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place. 16 I have chosen and consecrated this temple so that my Name may be there forever. My eyes and my heart will always be there." 2chron7
"Pray for Our Nation"
-No gain without pain eh? His eyes and heart will always be there to send drought and locusts and plague... this must be tough love. He cant heal the land until he messes it up a little?
10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves.
19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. No! they said. We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles."
http://www.bibleg...search=1 Samuel 8&version=NIV
Socialist Auto worships the State and cannot abide a God who says he can't steal the property of others.
Auto should like this passage as God abandoned those who want to be taken care of by the State.
Auto claims to be a socialist and atheist. His tribal affiliations (or religion), or personal desires, promote control of other people and their property.
Among other things, the "researchers" describe Iranians as seeing it as a "sacred" right to have their own atomic bomb. They see it as a national right. If Americans are asked if they felt the U.S. had a right to nuclear weapons and they said "yes", would that be interpreted as their feeling it was a "sacred" right? And why not condemn, then, the assertion of "inalienable rights" referred to as "endowed" by the "Creator"?
And, again, religion never caused any wars, it was always greed and craven machination. Religion did not start the Korean War, the Falklands Islands War, the Revolutionary War, the Spanish Civil War, the War of 1812, the Korean War, the invasion of Panama, the Spanish-Amercan War, World War I, Vietnam.
As proof the corporatist NWO hates God, note that the alternative given to religious motivation is "business-like" operation, based on profit.
i have no problem with god.
my problem are the believers, the followers of all those archaic religions and ways of thinking involving magic and miracles and martyrs and stuff.
all those believers who are unable to adapt their morale standards to the time they live in but insist to live like 2000 or 3000 years ago.
all those believers who insist to replace science with some divine magic, and who insist to teach divine magic in science classes as if it were science and indoctrinate young childrens in to their religious ways to close their young minds to all reason and destroy their curiosity .
all those believers who insist that their religion is the best of all religions and only true one and try to impose it on everyone else by proselytizing it everywhere at every moment by any mean.
stop trying to impose religious dogma on scientific observations and no problem anymore.
problem with god ? no
problem with believers ? yes
But you don't have a problem with those who believe in atheism or believe in a utopian socialist society?
As for science, why do you believe science? Why do you believe the process will give you the same results today and tomorrow? Planck stated we have no reason to expect physical 'laws' to be the same today as they are tomorrow.
well its impossible to believe in atheism, since atheism is simply lack of belief in gods. personally i define my self as polyatheist, since there is many gods i don't believe in, it just happens that yours is also on the list. health is not disease, its just absence of of disease. atheism is not religion, just absence of it.
utopia is impossible, no mater how you take it, thats why paradise cant exist since paradise of ones is hell of others, no mater if we talk about material life or some hypothetical afterlife.
i believe in results that science have provided since always, agriculture, architecture, engineering, medicine, ....since always it helped us to make our life better and richer and easier... and we are just scratching the surface. so much wonders waiting for us.
why expect laws of physics to be same ?
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
You BELIEVE no gods exist. Where is the data to support your CERTAIN belief in the face of data from those who believe God does exist?
The only honest position is uncertainty which is referred to being agnostic.
"We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future."
Max Planck
Read more at http://www.brainy...7SmR1.99
no, i don't believe that he doesn't exist.
i just lack belief that he do. since there isn't any reason that he should exist. why should i believe that he exist ? there is no reason to believe something like that.
its like believing that there is an asteroid in alpha of century and that on that asteroid live an pink elephant who can red my mind and see what i think . i don't have faith or believe that he doesn't exist. i just lack the believe that he do, in the start, unless you can demonstrate me that he do. can you demonstrate me that pink et elephant or your god exist ? no you cant, so the notion it self of those 2 entities is irrelevant to me, my life, this planet, science,...
Science has given us dependable tools with which we can begin to dismantle all superstition for good.
Why reject reality for gods which are entirely superfluous? Because they make you FEEL good? That is certainly not a sufficient excuse for all the trouble they cause.
You ask silly questions.
Science has shown religious faith has NO effect on the world?
The success of Western Civilization is just a coincidence?
"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve."
"Whence come I and whither go I? That is the great unfathomable question, the same for every one of us. Science has no answer to it."
http://www.brainy...nck.html
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," reads the story of creation described in Genesis, the first book of the Bible. Schroeder, who earned two Ph.D.s from MIT, says those opening chapters are descriptions of the big bang itself. They are, as he says, "identical realities."
His thesis hinges on the fact that time is not a constant: It's relative, at least according to Albert Einstein. Schroeder insists that the biblical calendar begins with the appearance of Adam on the sixth day, not with the creation of the world. "Relativity," he says, "has proven the flexibility of time during those six pre-Adam days of Genesis."
Read more: http://www.foxnew...vQ4N0kUJ
Re; your Planck quote; since you don't watch vids you won't get to see niel tysons convincing explanation of why these guys used to tend to invoke god for the things that science hadn't gotten to yet. Shameful really.
http://www.youtub...a_player
-What do you think a thing such as 'the ultimate mystery of nature' could be ryggy? What makes you think it is a real or informative or useful concept at all? What else could such a nonsense concept be, but the ultimate nonsense concept of all, which is god?
We need no such religionist crap to explain anything.
What is the point in your participating here if you insist on posting lies? I know - this is what religionists do. This is how religionists think. You are an informative demonstration of this ryggy - keep up the good work. You make the world a little saner every time you post insanity.
Science has told us that religions as a whole begin to lose their grip in multicultural societies. You're performance shows us how this works.
Who has measured the impact of the millions of individuals of faith who have positive effects of the lives of those they interact with?
There is an insurance commercial showing a chain reaction of positive acts that were inspired by the observation of other positive actions.
Napoleon Hill wondered what made people successful and with the support of Andrew Carnegie spent 20 years interviewing and documenting how individuals of his day achieved success. One common thread was a powerful faith, in God, and in their ability to succeed.
Where are the scientific studies that follow millions of individuals who are inspired and motivated by MLK, a Christian minister?
How many scientific theories and hypotheses of the creation of the universe contradict?
And I understand why socialists must attack God as their socialism is a religion and the idea and philosophy of God threatens their collective view. The axiom stated in the US Declaration if Independence, motivated by the authors' faith in God, is that humans have inherent and unalienable rights to life, liberty and property from a Creator not from a tyrant or tyrannical mob now called the State.
What is the point in your participating here if you insist on posting lies? I know - this is what religionists do. This is how religionists think. You are an informative demonstration of this ryggy - keep up the good work. You make the world a little saner every time you post insanity.
Science has told us that religions as a whole begin to lose their grip in multicultural societies. You're performance shows us how this works.
Why does the book he wrote say one thing while the world he created says something completely different? More unresolvable conflict. Conclusion: no god, just audacious men in power.
Who wrote the book?
Hey shouldn't you be in church? You're not sitting in a pew typing on your iPhone are you? Shame shame.
theocracy is a total fail, no mater where no mater when, it just don't work, cause its against human nature. against our fundamental right to QUESTION EVERYTHING. and your religion don't stand questioning.
what are you talking about ?
George W Bush is a famous christian and he invoked his belief in many speeches.
A late 2009 online Harris poll of 2,303 U.S. adults (18 and older)[57] found that "82% of adult Americans believe in god", the same number as in two earlier polls in 2005 and 2007. Another 9% said they did not believe in god, and 9% said that they were not sure.
if George W Bush was under influence of some external power then its religion, wasn't he republican ? , religion exist, on other hand nwo, illuminati , ....and stuff like that....please give me a break
Religion by definition is based upon faith.
It is also interesting how those who claim to be 'scientists' believe in socialism. Especially after Carl Popper, inspired by the scientific failures of Marxism, developed his theory of falsifiability, which many 'scientists' claim as the standard for any science.
What must really bother hard core atheist/scientists is that science is limited and cannot explain all.
Except for your faith is science?
But if you, as a believer, actually respected your god you would type his name G_d. For as we know destroying the word god is disrespecting him, whether this is burning the quran or deleting type on your computer. Ask any haredi or wahabbi.
You trash your god every time you type his name. I think you should stop this.
Julian doesnt even respect himself enough to capitalize his own name, which tells us a lot about his character. Self-deprecators for jesus, who is god. The almighty.
It's that socialists claim to use science and rationality to dismantle religion but don't apply the same standards to their faith, socialism.
Rand was an atheist and a capitalist who had a huge ego that allowed no room for humility.
For your sake, that is probably a good thing as atheists would have been reliably wished away by now. Do you believe children should have every wish reliably granted by their parents?
Bloomberg is mayor of New York, but is addressed as "Mr. Mayor". When you address a judge, you rerefer to them as "Judge", as well as "Your Honor", even though "your" and "honor", under other circumstances, are written differently. And, among house staff, for example, "Chef" and "Driver" are common uses. It's not certain, though, whether the name God came from an honorary reference to a particular role or whether the word "god" came from God, but the fact that that God haters don't ever go this deep into the discussion strongly demonsrates that they do it only out of petty spite. It is no more bigoted to say that God is the name of the Deity than it is to say that you think Bloomberg is the only mayor since your use a capitalized form referring to him. But liars commonly use the tactic of taking a legitimate point of view and pretending it's wrong.
What must really bother hard core believers is that science actually help humanity , in tangible , material way, via medicine and architecture and engineering, in this life, witch is real, contrary to religion who only make void promises of some hypothetical paradise in some hypothetical afterlife. and that each time there is conflict between science an religion , its science who win; flat / round earth, geo / helio centrism , age of the earth ,...
i don't have FAITH in science, i just trust information, found by observation, logic, rationality,...(science) more than those provided by some old mythology book explaining everything by magic.
flash news, we are humans, not bears, bears live alone, each one by them self.
humans are social beings, we live in groups, familys, clans, nations... we help each other, humans are social beings, that's why they live together and take care of young and old and incapacitate fellow humans, aka human society. its default human social organization.
what is not normal is wild cold capitalism when each work just for his own profit and leave his fellow humans to die cause they cant afford medicine or food or shelter.
Or like when the people DECIDE that they want socialism. Like in france. Whats that you say? You dont think the people know what is best for them do they?
Well now that is a very curious statement for you to make. If the people cannot be relied on to decide what is best for them, then what good is democracy? What good is a system in which the people are allowed to determine its course based on short-term personal interests rather than on what might be best for society as a whole?
This is why I personally think that experts should be deciding these things.
http://en.wikiped...hnocracy
-Which is most likely the Way it already is.
It must really bother hard-core atheists that it was true believers that developed modern science and did so be better understand God and His creation.
Of course you do, if you are a scientist.
"Anybody who has been seriously engaged is scientific work of any kind realizes that over the entrance to the gates of the temple of science are written the words: 'Ye must have faith.'"
Max Planck
Right, you want to be god.
You don't support the axiom that every human being has an inherent right life, liberty, and property.
So please, use science to demonstrate that command and control, top down tyrannies benefit individuals.
it dont bother me at all, all those people were victims of their times, indoctrinated since very young age and never proposed alternative and until recently in occident , saying not believing in god, was punished by torture and death or social exclusion or prison ... its still case in some islamic countrys.
inquisition in the past, religious police today.
it makes those people even more amazing, since even they were indoctrinated all their life, they were able disband all those myths and superstitions and to see that real world observation counter explanation from religious fanatics.
This is CONFIDENCE in natural laws as opposed to FAITH in some vaporgod who would decide to alter these laws in your favor just because you ask him nicely.
You see the difference? Confidence is a sign of maturity. Faith is only an indication of a desire to CHEAT. 'If I believe HARD enough then god will make things turn out the way I want them to...' -with endless respectable and admirable variations. Youve all had SO much practice.
Max Planck
-Yeah and ryggy still has not watched the neil tyson vid. Too bad. Neil explains why scientists tended to invoke god when they ran out of answers. And when those answers invariably came they looked a little stupid.
But they were human. Not like god, who will never admit that he had NO IDEA how the universe was created. Obviously. Nor can we expect him to amend his book to conform to the world he apparently created, now that we have a better understanding of it.
Why is that? It should be in god the father almightys power to change text in billions of copies if his book without us ever being the wiser; or at least republishing. Where is his integrity?
Yet more reasons not to respect god.
That may be what you want faith to be, but that is not what Christians consider to be be faith.
Christian faith is quite difficult, probably too difficult for socialist wanna-be tyrants like Auto. Christian faith demands faith regardless of what the faithful wants or demands.
Faith would not be required if all your wishes were fulfilled.
No, they were not.
Nobel laureate William Phillips is a victim of his time (1997)?
http://www.nobelp...bio.html
Or Paul Davies? http://cosmos.asu.edu/
http://www.youtub...=related
Xian faith demands the sort of nonsense convolution that this sentence represents.
and ? i said until recently in the occident. that means until enlightenment, it changed only when church lost its power. and apostasy is still punished by death in some islamic country, and even if not, in those country an non muslim don't have any chance to come in some important job or anything...
and fact that there are believers today, doesn't mean they werent brain washed as kids and indoctrinated in religions.
and even those religious scientist have mostly very large faith, aka place god very far away in creation, somewhere around big bang and such, and don't read bible literally like all trolls who come preach on this site.
and if your so sure that religion is so awesome, stop talking about religion to kids before they 20-30 years old, and only then talk them about religion and make them read those supposedly holy books and let them choose if they wanna be believers or not , you will see how many will choose to become part of religion ...
It is deceitful in the extreme to say that pointing out that terms of position or employment, when related to specific individuals, are typically capitalized, is "neurotic", The GhostofOtto1923 has nothing to mock in what I say, so, rather than prove something is wrong, they just call it names.
TheGhostofOtto1923 proves their personal greed by saying only being a wish answerer would make God worthy of respect, then they turn it around and accuse those who make wishes greedy.
And, of course, they would refuse to take the sensible answer I gave for my username. Ignoring that cowards refuse giving their real names.
Then you must support the end of socialist/global warming/'progressive' indoctrination in schools.
http://www.mayocl.../SR00009
"Gratitude is more than saying thank you. It's a sense of wonder, appreciation and, yes, thankfulness for life."
http://www.mayocl...NGROUP=2
"Spirituality has many benefits for stress relief and overall mental health."
http://www.mayocl.../SR00035
Issac Newton was Muslim?
In Newton's day, what power did the Church of England have?
Ever hear of Mendel?
"The monastery had a well-earned reputation for cultural and scientific achievement... Its monk-scholars were in many cass authorities in their fields. Among them was Cyril Franz Napp, the prelate of St. Thomas and a noted Old Testament scholar... "http://www.adhere...del.html
He would be a liar and a con artist if he actually existed but he does not, as the only things which describe him, the holy books, are the obvious creations of people inspired only by the possibility of making others do what these charlatans want them to.
These are some of the reasons why your god does not warrant respect.
"It is important to note that some Catholic theologians saw nothing wrong with what Galileo was doing, and even supported it. However, the ones who supported Galileo were not the most powerful politically. "
http://classweb.g...srfr.htm
http://descmath.c...nts.html
"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
Max Planck
Max Planck
TheGhostofOtto1923 "proves" God does not deserve respect because He "promises to grant wishes but never follows through". That is a patent falsehood! Nowhere does God say that He will give anyone whatever they ask for! The GhostofOtto1923 is a liar. Peoiple are exhorted to pray to God, but, in the end, if you have acted to make the world worse, you do not deserve God's beneficence beyond what normally occurs, and maybe not even that totally. But The GhostofOtto1923 could not win arguing from truth.
maybe just like Galileo , who almost got killed by promoting heliocentrism , and he had to retract him self to save his life.
The Inquisition, Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis (inquiry on heretical perversity), was the "fight against heretics" by several institutions within the justice system of the Roman Catholic Church. It started in the 12th century, with the introduction of torture in the persecution of heresy. Inquisition practices were used also on offences against canon law other than heresy.
Witch hunting and burning, tortures, crusades,.... ?
most recently, church hiding pedophiles,.... just confess them and switch them to another region...
and julian , if you read your bible you would see that your god killed millions, childrens of Egypt and much more....
your god should be executed for crimes against humanity.
I think it's important to note that the current pope was, before he became pope, head of "The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith". That organization was renamed in 1904. Before that it was called "The Inquisition".
Its much better that they are out in the open, NAMBLA, and demand govt protection and the right to molest children.
http://www.evilbi...Lied.htm
-But like you he lies.
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)
Translation: 'Believe and serve the way you are supposed to and god will give you whatever you want.' This is what it SAYS, not what you might want it to say. And millions have taken Jesus on his word, and have been disappointed, but have held on in the hope that he would at least deliver on that greatest Gift of all: immortality.
The thing that your buddy the lovegod never actually has to prove, if his minions can promise it with enough Authority. The perfect bribe.
" A lot of Christians ignore what Jesus actually says in the Bible. They also tend to add things to the actual words to make them say something else. If you honestly and truthfully read these quotes, without adding to them, it is very easy to see that Jesus is not saying that God will think about your prayers. He says God will grant all your prayers. Clearly, God doesnt grant all prayers and this proves that Jesus was a habitual liar."
-You might not like his tone but what he says is true. Conversely you might love jesus' tone but what he says is the basest of deception.
"9Â Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Â Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11Â If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"
-Well of course. If satan existed (he doesn't either) he wouldn't be the frightful leering demon in the pictures. No he would be much smarter than any of us. He would be the epitome of goodness and kindness, healing a few blind lepers here and there, throwing free fishfrys and the like, maybe flying to montana to walk among the ojibways or somesuch; and promising the most wondrous and impossible gifts.
It would only be in what he required of his followers, what his minions DEMANDED of believers, which would inform us of his true Nature. This is true of any guru or prophet who has claimed to speak for god.
Now Auto is mad at God for not giving him what he wanted.
Wa,wa,wa,....
Al Qaeda claims deadly Yemen attack
http://www.abc.ne.../4024902
-And:
Will Iran Take the Next Step?
http://www.nytime...tep.html
-And:
A Spasm of Violence
http://www.time.c...tsmodule
-And:
Catholic Church Attacks Birth-Control Mandate in Court
http://www.bloomb...urt.html
-And:
Jerusalem Day
http://www.haaret...1.431602
-But he said it wasnt him it was you idiot religionists making this mess and anyways it was up to us to solve our own problems. Good luck he says.
"The events in Srebrenica in 1995 included the killing of more than 8,000 Bosnian Muslims as well as the mass expulsion of another 25,00030,000 Bosnian Muslims, in and around the town of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina, committed by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of General Ratko Mladi"
-currently on trial for genocide, many regard him as a hero.
Maybe you would like to read through this website for enlightenment on xian fervor?
http://rosarubico...ide.html
-The only good heathen is a dead heathen eh?
A tyrant is a tyrant regardless of intention.
C. S. Lewis"
yeah that describe religion perfectly
Only the STATE can 'legally' use force to tyrannize its victims.
BTW, anyone notice that incinerated aborted baby remains are being smuggled out of socialist China?
In the USA no one is forced to join or belong to a church or a religion. Where is the tyranny? And anyone who doesn't like the religion he was born into, or joined, is free to quit.
but USA is not an theocracy, its an democracy with separation of church and state. in theocracy you don't have that liberty.
false. religious have always and still are oppressing others while justifying their deeds by their so called holy book, witch they believe is word of their god and as such ultimate and indisputable law. ex; forbid sex without have an marriage approved by religious authorities, forbid marriage of people of same sex, denies right of womans to control their bodys and have / not have as many kids as they want, punish by death adultery (mostly womans, mans are rarely punished for that),....so on, so on... if you recognize your god as supreme leader, your holy book as his word, then you live in an theocracy and its LEGAL to use force to tyrannize no believers or different religions followers, since your god say so.
Especially the socialist religion.
http://en.wikiped...ocialism
As soon as one individual does not want to 'share', the state must use force to take his property or kick him out.
any "primitive" tribe is a socialism, just observe tribes in amazonia or bushman in africa, or nomad tribes in siberia or mongolia,...they all live together, share everything, everyone take care of everyone childrens, when hunter kill an animal everyone get its share, when womans gather fruits or so, everyone get its share, womans who can lactate do it so for all babys who need it,...american indians used to live like that too before christian colonization,.... aka socialism in its purest form. nothing to do with monastery who actually are financed by population who give them money or gifts , pay for religious 'services' , buy products of monks no mater of its quality to support them...
This is what socialists want? To kill off billions of people and return to tribal living?
And your tribal analogy is the same as the monastery, 100% voluntary participation.
How successful are the tribes you describe?
dishonest and lame reply from you , since i was only replying to your claim that monastery are only socialist humans societies, witch is false. they not socialist organizations and even if, they not only ones.
All others can rot in hell with their golden calves correct? Those who stray will be CULLED as the bible describes, over and over and over again. Even Moses and Aaron didn't make the cut. Billions would of course have to die today wouldn't they? Just like the Rapture .
There is no competition in heaven. There is no money in heaven. There is no CAPITALISM in heaven.
Heaven on earth would be exactly as Jesus described it and as you yourself have admitted - a socialist state. Maybe it IS the only correct religion... there can only be at most ONE you know. All others should be paying taxes like any social club.
Hey buddy can I borrow your chainsaw? Hah!
Like the AGWites and other environuts who want to depopulate the earth to save Gaia?
Nothing here is inconsistent with what Jesus said.
What God said in 1 Samuel8:11-20 condemns the socialist state.
Anyone who believes Jesus advocated a coercive state, aka socialism, is more a socialist than a Christian.
"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel." Deut 17:12
-Nothing coercive about this at all, is there? And of course priests and prophets arent KINGS are they? There is a difference of some sort. Different raiments. Priests get to eat burnt offerings, kings need cooks. Something.
Of course there are.
A socialist state is defined by how much control it wields over private property.
It does not matter who the leader is or how the leader(s) are chosen.
"Former British Labour leader Tony Blair is a member of the Christian Socialist Movement"
I challenge anyone, Christian or not, to find where Jesus supports plunder.
Rob from the rich to give to the poor. Somebody was trying to tell you that Jesus was a socialist. Jesus was not materialized to replace the law but to FULFILL it. And that would include by extension all the plundering committed by joshuas merry band of sturmtruppen.
Jesus also convinced the rich to give up everything and follow him. Plunder by deception.
Anything else you need to know about the grand robber baron? Did you know that there is a good chance the Hebrews - Habiru of Egyptian lore - were thieves inhabiting the hilltop village of Jerusalem during the purported time of Solomon and davids mighty kingdoms, which in fact never existed. These merry plunderers invented a glorious past for themselves indeed.
Why does Auto compare a fictional character, Robin Hood, to Jesus, who Auto believes is also fictional?
But in any event, Robin Hood, real or not, returned the wealth, stolen by the state, to the people.
So we've concluded that heaven would necessarily be a socialist environment. Whatever few things you might need in heaven (sackcloth, confetti?) would be supplied by st Peter/the state.
And so if xians truly want heaven on earth, why wouldn't they be creating the kind of environment that Jesus would be proud of? If I never returned your chainsaw or tried cutting barbed wire with it, wouldn't it be better if it wasn't yours to begin with? Wouldn't it be easier to 'turn the other cheek', 'go the extra mile', if this was the case ?
Your property rights are based on mistrust of your fellow humans. Jesus would say it also signifies an unhealthy attachment to worldly goods. You should WELCOME socialism as it is one step closer to the RIGHT hand of god.
http://bible.cc/m...9-21.htm
Note the various translations all say to voluntarily SELL and voluntarily GIVE what you own and follow Jesus.
Socialists don't believe in buying or selling.
"God commands us to use our talents towards productive ends. The parable emphasizes the need for work and creativity as opposed to idleness."
"Critics link capitalism with greed, yet the fundamental nature of the entrepreneurial vocation is to focus on the needs of customers. To succeed, the entrepreneur must serve others."
"God commands all people to use the talents they have been given, yet in the name of charity our welfare system encourages people to let their natural skills atrophy, or keeps them from discovering their talents at all."
http://www.thefre...reneurs/
http://www.thefre...reneurs/
The parable is saying that profiteers CANNOT get into heaven unless they give away what they accumulated. The mans wealth is a liability. Better to have remained poor all your life.
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