Major scientific programs could be slashed or eliminated under debt-reduction deal

The American Physical Society, the nation's leading organization of physicists, is deeply concerned that proposals to drastically reduce the nation's debt would do serious harm to major scientific projects.

APS understand that America must get its fiscal house in order, but the Society also believes that it is important to make wise choices that will create jobs and build a better America.

Under the debt-reduction deal, across-the-board cuts to reduce discretionary spending would mean the cancellation of major scientific projects. In a newly released statement, the APS Executive Board expressed dismay that impending U.S. House action on appropriations for Commerce, Justice, Science and Related Agencies had identified the (JWST) as a prime candidate for termination.

APS urges Congress to restore funding for JWST and believes it deserves special attention for the following reasons:

Successor to the extraordinarily successful with similar potential to transform astronomy, JWST is the centerpiece of the future American space astrophysics program. It was the highest-ranked mission in the 2000 National Academy of Sciences' Astronomy Decadal Survey and is a cornerstone of the 2010 Survey.

JWST is 100 times more powerful than Hubble and would revolutionize our understanding of the birth of the Universe, reveal much about the first stars and galaxies, and play a crucial role in the quest to find life on distant planets.

Seventy-five percent of the JWST hardware is being fabricated or has been delivered, and 3.5 billion dollars (about half of the total cost) has been spent. The Casani report, commissioned by Senator Mikulski, found no technical problems and NASA and its contractors have corrected management deficiencies that the report identified.

JWST would continue Hubble's legacy as one of the greatest inspirations for young people and as a symbol of American leadership in science and space.Cancellation of JWST would eliminate thousands of high-tech jobs, especially in the aerospace industry.

The Canadian and the European Space Agencies are contributing around a to JWST; cancellation would again call into question our nation's record as a reliable international partner.


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Aug 05, 2011
Idiot politicians. America needs to cut its spending overall but should actually increase it in vital areas such as infrastructure, higher education, R&D and scientific technologies like the James Webb. The currency of knowledge is priceless, these are investments for the future! The returns could be exponential compared to what is originally spent on them.

Aug 05, 2011
I can't say it better.

Aug 05, 2011
Those that rule have much more invested in the defense industries than in the educational industries.

Too bad.

Aug 05, 2011
America needs to cut its spending overall but should actually increase it in vital areas such as infrastructure, higher education, R&D and scientific technologies like the James Webb.


I believe scientists would be more productive in the free market rather than living from money taken by force. Similarly, education provided by the free market is a better investment than government schools.

Aug 06, 2011
Congress does not need universe-spanning resolving powers. Their uncorrectable congenitally defective visions are only required to go no futher than the ballot boxes, their shares portfolios, oil and Israel. Look at what their wrecking balls have done to America's AAA credit rating. Now America has to pay hundreds of billions more every year on the debts. The fat pigs themselves don't have to pay more taxes, the stupid taxpayers will as always. Cutting left, right and center is the way it should be!

Aug 06, 2011
The LHC or Hubble would never be funded in a "free market" system.

Vendy acknowledges the US is NOT a free market system so he and his fellow socialists can stop blaming the current economic failures on 'free markets'.
Universities were and are funded by foundations created by those who acquired great wealth in a freer market system. Ever hear of Andrew Carnegie or Howard Hughes?
The Roman Catholic Church established and funds observatories.
So explain why Peter Branson or Warren Buffet or Bill Gate or Paul Allen would NOT have funded Hubbble?
Had they done so, they could have sold the images, AND they may have spent the money to ensure the primary mirror was built to spec.

Aug 06, 2011
Those that rule have much more invested in the defense industries than in the educational industries.

Too bad.

The defense industry needs scientists and engineers. Many have established their own education and training programs as the university system proves they can't provide the talent they need.

http://www.mathmo...m/#/home

If the govt schools were doing their job, why would Raytheon be compelled to start a middle school math program?

Aug 06, 2011
Of course the APS is doing exactly what the 'progressive' state wants them to do.
Start a tantrum to keep their place at the teat of the state.
Socialism is wonderful until you run out of other people's money.

Aug 06, 2011
"SPOT 6 and SPOT 7 form a constellation of Earth-imaging satellites designed to provide continuity of high-resolution, wide-swath data up to 2023. EADS Astrium took the decision to build this constellation in 2009 on the basis of a perceived government need for this kind of data."
Wiki
What! A private company built imaging satellites to make a profit?

Aug 06, 2011
"A growing chorus of economists and educators think that the higher education industry will be America's next bubble. Easy credit, high tuition, and poor job prospects have resulted in growing delinquency and default rates on nearly $1 trillion worth of private and federally subsidized loans. Now the ratings agency Moody's has weighed in with a chilling diagnosis: "Unless students limit their debt burdens, choose fields of study that are in demand, and successfully complete their degrees on time, they will find themselves in worse financial positions and unable to earn the projected income that justified taking out their loans in the first place." "
http://reason.com...m-on-stu
What!? Choose fields of study that are in demand?

Aug 06, 2011
Those that rule have much more invested in the defense industries than in the educational industries.

Too bad.
But theoretical science inevitably benefits the military, and they know it. That's why DARPA and the navy fund so much of it. Perhaps someone realized that by the time the Webb is launched it will be obsolete?

And now for cruel sarcasm...

Hey rygg, what's the biggest drain on the economy? Right, it's the entitlements. Socialist Medicare, SS, etc. Just like with GM, the country is being dragged under by the growing masses of post-productive old people. Who needs them? Let's feed them to the polar bears like the esquimaux:
http://www.youtub...a_player

-Then we can afford all the telescopes and robot tanks and supertrains and obamacare we want.

Aug 06, 2011
"Of course the APS is doing exactly what the 'progressive' state wants them to do." - RyggTard

Yup. They are promoting science. Exactly what we progressives want them to do.

No, they are demanding the govt take money from others and give it to them because they are so smart and deserve it.
All 'intellectual' elites believe they shouldn't have to earn their way in the world.
The 2008 Hubble service mission alone cost 900 million, and there have been 5 service missions?

Sounds like a very poor design. Oh, that's right, it was a govt project.
The defense industry spends more on how NOT to kill the people they don't want to kill. An RPG is cheap and needs little engineering. An IR,GPS guided cruise missile much more. And to hit a incoming RV nuke, much more.

Aug 06, 2011
Auto, it was the US Navy that has continues to fund research on cold fusion when the rest of the physics community was too afraid.
The first internet was created to maintain communications with the US nuclear missile silos in case of an attack.

Aug 06, 2011
Auto, it was the US Navy that has continues to fund research on cold fusion when the rest of the physics community was too afraid.
The first internet was created to maintain communications with the US nuclear missile silos in case of an attack.
I KNOW. The military LOVES as well as fears science. They need to make sure that anything potentially dangerous is developed by them first. Or effectively suppressed until such Time as it can be developed safely.

Good thing eh? We don't need to be wasting valuable resources on another maginot line do we?

So what about socialist entitlements? You think the elderly should be setting up lemonade stands? Selling quilts on eBay? Machines can make them better than arthritic fingers can.

Aug 06, 2011
An RPG is cheap and needs little engineering. An IR,GPS guided cruise missile much more. And to hit a incoming RV nuke, much more.
An rpg just brought down a chinook in afghanystan. Killed many Seals. Too bad they weren't using Ospreys. Why not?
The first internet was created to maintain communications with the US nuclear missile silos in case of an attack.
Uh, they're not still connected to the Internet are they?? Because hackersec and anonymous and china are looking for trouble...

Aug 06, 2011
die in the middle of the ocean from lack of health care.

What happened to the Hippocratic oath?
There is a market for health care. People will pay money to be healthy, if they are allowed to by their govt.
scientists doing research into basic science are in fact worthless deadbeats.

Yes, if that is their motivation.
It is interesting that just about every major 'basic science' discovery is tied to some potential application 10-30 years in the future, if more funding is provided of course. Sounds like hot fusion doesn't it?
Basic science is also discovered when current engineering and science don't respond as predicted. The photo electric effect has significant economic applications.

Well, they seem to be doing a pretty pathetic job of it.

Compared to what?

Aug 07, 2011
What motivated Einstein to develop special relativity?

Is this his real motivation?

"Komisaruk hopes that this new research will lead to information to help people who are unable to reach orgasm but is also looking at ways to use this pleasurable stimulation to directly control brain activity. According to Komisaruk, learning to better understand and control the part of the brain that produces pleasurable sensations could make a difference in the treatment of depression, anxiety, addiction or even obesity."
http://medicalxpr...firstCmt

"ered a last resort in the effort to provide fresh water to the world's populations and suggests that long-term research is needed to determine the impact of seawater desalination on the aquatic environment, but believes that desalination has a major role to play now and in the future.

"All of this will require new materials and new chemistry,..."
http://www.physor...nation-t

Aug 07, 2011
"Besides proving the Van Allen radiation belt theory correct, the discovery also opens the door to other possibilities, such as using the discovered antiprotons for manmade purposes, such as one day perhaps serving as fuel for rockets."
http://www.physor...firstCmt

"Because of continued interest in plutonium's behavior in the environment, from both environmental and security angles, the researchers will continue to perform research directed at identifying and understanding subsurface reactions involving iron and plutonium. New capabilities in EMSL, a national scientific user facility, will play a critical role in this research."
http://www.physor...firstCmt


Aug 07, 2011
Vendy once again ignores the point that the 'basic' research must make some claim for future benefit to obtain more money, especially from the govt.
Why does this research take to long to produce the benefit claimed? Hot fusion research has made claims, sucked up money, and failed to deliver.
Einstein was motivated by Maxwell's equations to develop special relativity.

Aug 07, 2011
"The only way that state benefit programmes could be extended in the ways that are forecast for Europes ageing population would be by government seizing all the levers of the economy and producing as much (externally) worthless currency as was needed in the manner of the old Soviet Union. "
A general correction of the imbalance between wealth production and wealth redistribution is now a matter of basic necessity, not ideological preference. "
The hardest obstacle to overcome will be the idea that anyone who challenges the prevailing consensus of the past 50 years is irrational and irresponsible. That is what is being said about the Tea Partiers. In fact, what is irrational and irresponsible is the assumption that we can go on as we are. "
http://www.telegr...uth.html
This was predicted by Mises, Hayek and many others. Do 'progressives' want prosperity or control? Pick one

Aug 07, 2011
Why does this research take to long to produce the benefit claimed? Hot fusion research has made claims, sucked up money, and failed to deliver.
Deliver what ryggadygg? Plasma physics has compiled increasing knowledge on how to store, manipulate, and transport materials in plasma form. This will be invaluable to future tech which will absolutely need these capabilities.

Govt wizards know that this takes a great deal of time and money. They also know that the public needs to believe this research will produce unlimited free power (well it MIGHT you know) in order to keep funding it.

The govt also knows that the pursuit of this particular knowledge base is so IMPORTANT that alternative methods of producing fusion energy, such as polywell, z pinch, or even cold fusion, may need to be suppressed until this knowledge base matures.

Bussard, former DOE bigwig and Insider, did a very good job of this by sitting on polywell until he died.

Aug 07, 2011
"Why does this research take to long to produce the benefit claimed?"-Rygg

You realize some areas of our technology are already so advanced that it takes years or decades of research and trial and error to make a marketable, cost-effective improvement? Read today's new article. They're down to genetically engineering bacteria to make nano-wires. That doesn't sound like something you can do in two days in your basement, like back in the days of Tesla and Edison.

Aug 07, 2011
"A general correction of the imbalance between wealth production and wealth redistribution is now a matter of basic necessity, not ideological preference. " Rygg

You must be joking!

The wealthy in America are verifiably richer than they have ever been, and have a higher percentage of both income and total accumulated wealth than they ever have since the colonial period.

Do you realize that voting "republican" does not even benefit you financially unless you make at least around 4 to 5 times the MEAN annual income (more like 7 to 8 times the Median)?

The tax breaks they are for only affect people who are, in most cases, already filthy rich: CEOs, entertainers, tyccoons, etc.

How much more income and accumulated wealth do millionaires and billionaires need at the expense of everyone else?

Do you seriously believe medical care should be a priviledge for the very wealthy only, as Republicans seem to believe?

Continued...

Aug 07, 2011
Wow, or Conservative (and often allegedly "Christian") Republitards and Teatards want tax cuts for the rich, and end "entitlements"...Wow.

Firstly, "entitlements" are typically mostly paid for by the person receiving them, although admittedly social security is losing money primarily because of a GOOD reason, being the life expectancy has mushroomed due to modern medicine, and primarily the Vaccine: MMR, Polio, and Smallpox Vaccines went a long way, I should think.

The average person pays enough into SS to retire for 7 years, but unfortunately, the average woman is now drawing benefits for 19 years, while the average man is now drawing benefits for around 12 years....So the SOLUTION is to push the eligibility back by 5 years (excepting disability) RETROACTIVELY if possible...

However, if the greedy, filthy rich hadn't "accumulated" 90% of wealth at everyone else's expense, instead of actually...paying...people...then you wouldn't even need Social Security system at all...

Aug 07, 2011
You realize some areas of our technology are already so advanced that it takes years or decades of research and trial and error to make a marketable, cost-effective improvement?

And who pays for this? Who should reap the rewards for the risk?
at everyone else's expense,

You mean at everyone else's benefit? After all, those greedy companies pay half of the social security tax.
What do you socialists think those filthy rich do with THEIR wealth?
Many buy govt bonds to fund your welfare programs. Others invest in stocks, municipal bonds to fund roads and schools. Some provide capital to entrepreneurs to research and develop new technologies.

But the socialists knows much better what these filthy rich should do with the 'peoples' money, right?
Like China's high speed rail system that kills people and is too expensive for the commoner to use?


Aug 07, 2011
Socialism may make you feel better, as this clip shows, there is not enough wealth for you to confiscate to satisfy your socialist fantasies.

http://www.youtub...pi6K-8WQ

Aug 07, 2011
Just so you know, I watched that entire video, so...in rebuttal, an opportunistic video presented itself...

Warren Buffet wants to raise his own taxes....

http://www.youtub...amp;NR=1

Rygg:

High speed rail systems are an example of a good idea but bad implementation. Since kinetic energy is the square of velocity, doubling speed quadruples fuel costs.

Travelling 300mph costs 16 times as much energy as travelling 75mph, neglecting air resistance, etc. So "high speed" mass transit is a waste of resources.

Nevertheless, a high-speed train would be much cheaper and safer than an aircraft and more affordable. Highjacking a train would not be a good terrorist plot, for example.

Aug 07, 2011
Why do we spend more money than the next 13 to 15 nations combined on military, particularly when 80% of them are our allies?

http://en.wikiped...tes_Navy

Military spending:

http://www.warres...hart.htm

1 Aircraft carrier and a compliment of a few destroyers annihilated Libya's ENTIRE AA capability, and most of it's entire military in 2 days...

Why do we need 400 CONVENTIONAL super-ships, each capable of destroying an entire country's military in a day or two?

My God, I'm all for security and stuff, but this is completely INSANE, particularly since our presidents and generals end up fighting stupid Guerilla wars/urban wars anyway, and getting so many people injured needlessly.

They should cut the military literally in half. Keep the R&D divisions, and cut the SIZE (number of ships, planes, tanks and pilots,etc,) to like 40% of what it is now.

Aug 07, 2011
Warren Buffet wants to raise his own taxes....

No, he does not.
Buffet, like everyone else, is FREE to donate any amount of money to the US Treasury as they desire. Buffet wants to force other people to pay more taxes.
He is free to pay more at any time.

much cheaper and safer than an aircraft and more affordable.

If so, some company would have built one without govt subsidy.
Commercial freight rail operates at a profit. Why can't passenger rail? Bus service is becoming quite affordable between major cities. It is much cheaper, and takes about the same time to take a bus between Boston and NYC.

Aug 07, 2011
WAIT EVERYONE. We are falling for the government trap. When to government says it is cutting back, they don't mean they are cutting back. To me, if I cut my next year budget it means I spend LESS next year. To the government if they say they cut spending they mean they will spend MORE next year, just not as much as they hoped to spend. Thats not a budge cut.

The lie is that government is cutting anything.

Aug 07, 2011
Why do we spend more money than the next 13 to 15 nations combined on military, particularly when 80% of them are our allies?

Because we don't want them to.
Aircraft carrier and a compliment of a few destroyers annihilated Libya's ENTIRE AA capability, and most of it's entire military in 2 days...

So? Libya is still fighting and the Taliban are still quite effective. Air superiority is just the first step.

If aircraft carriers are such a bad idea, why is China planning to build three? India too is building aircraft carriers.

cut the SIZE (number of ships, planes, tanks and pilots,etc,) to like 40% of what it is now.

Will China, India, Russia... also stop their military build up? But your wish is occurring, at least with manned aircraft. UAVs are becoming quite popular.

Aug 07, 2011
The govt NEVER cuts spending under baseline budgeting. A 'cut' is considered a reduction in the next year's markup.
The govt would consider a budget freeze a cut.
Also, govt agencies that don't spend all their money are at risk for not having the same funding levels as the previous year.
There is NO incentive for any govt agency to save money or to return money. Managers are rewarded for spending and for having more staff.
Private employers reward for doing more with less.

Aug 07, 2011
Its interesting that the more progressive someone claims to be, the more derogatory they become to those that disagree with them. I respect people who have mental disabilities, so I would never called them retarded as I find that offensive to them. They are human beings worth of respect and using that term to demean someone is reprehensible

Aug 07, 2011
How sad it is that the more progressive someone claims to be the more derogatory they become to those that disagree with them. I respect people who have mental disablities, so I would never call them retarted or a retard, as that is offensive to them. They are human beings worthy of respect and using that term to demean someone is reprehensible.

Aug 07, 2011
Vendicar, who is the founder of your ideology?

Aug 07, 2011
Hope:
"The percentage of Americans who expressly state that they are supporters of the Tea Party movement is currently about as large at 22 percent of the population as the 21 percent who say they are liberals, according to recent but separate Gallup polls.

Meanwhile, at 41 percent of the population, according to Gallup, self-described conservatives outnumber both Tea Party movement supporters and liberals by nearly 2-to-1."
http://cnsnews.cl...s-entire

Aug 08, 2011
Enough slander, this is a science site.

My progressive view:
We've got it wrong on spending. I'd build a high speed rail network connecting every city, rebuild the bridges and roads, 100x the research money to the DOE and others, give college grants for degrees that would have a positive impact on the future, forgive college loans in half when filing for bankruptcy, add prizes for breakthroughs & cures for diseases (1 trillion for finding that one that everyone wants), all while taxing the holy hell out of the rich. We pulled money essentially out of our backside for Iraq, we can do the same for non-idiotic doings.

Aug 08, 2011
J Edgar Hoover in his book: "Masters of Deceit" wrote that subversive elements in any society would use 'useful fools' who would willingly act against their own interest in order to forward the interests of others who cared less for them than the dirt on the underside of their shoes. All those fools needed was skillful propagandizing, a few 'big lies' in a roomful of like minded vacuous mentalities and they would work tirelessly. Talked to one the other day. This worthy was harrassing a union demonstration with a cheap cell fone camera. When questioned, he offered how 'George Bush was for freedom.....Bush!?, the same man that hired shifty-eyed lawyers to write murky 'opinions' that were used by the jack booted thugs of 'Homeland Security' and others to arrest American citizens off of the streets of this nation and take them abroad to be tortured in secret prisons operated by barbaric warlords. I was so shocked that I did not think of that until later and write it here now.

Aug 08, 2011
Enough slander, this is a science site.

My progressive view:
We've got it wrong on spending. I'd build a high speed rail network connecting every city, rebuild the bridges and roads, 100x the research money to the DOE and others, give college grants for degrees that would have a positive impact on the future, forgive college loans in half when filing for bankruptcy, add prizes for breakthroughs & cures for diseases (1 trillion for finding that one that everyone wants), all while taxing the holy hell out of the rich. We pulled money essentially out of our backside for Iraq, we can do the same for non-idiotic doings.

There is not enough money to fulfill your socialist fantasies. Unless the govt prints more.

Aug 08, 2011
The govt can take ALL the money from the rich, and more, and it would still not be enough.
After you have killed off all your productive businesses and destroyed all your capital, how will the 'progressive' pay for next year?
http://www.youtub...pi6K-8WQ

'Progressives' claim to be so smart, but they can't manage the JWST and they refuse to acknowledge the failure of socialism.

Aug 08, 2011
Rygg, don't you get it. Progressives are smart because they believe they are smart and they are told by their parents and teachers they are smart. Thats why they hate you when you show them they know nothing about economics.

BTW progressives don't need to pay for stuff next year because they either live in their parents basement or are on wealfare, or are in jail. All of which of course is Bush's fault.

Aug 08, 2011
I consider someone as "smart" when they use logical reasoning based on valid assumptions to support their arguments.

I consider someone as "not smart" when they use logical fallacies, straw men, ad hominems, non sequiturs, and biased generalizations to support their arguments.

http://en.wikiped...allacies

http://en.wikiped..._(logic)

http://en.wikiped..._hominem

http://en.wikiped...traw_man

Aug 08, 2011
This bickering back and forth is one of the main reasons the US is in this situation in the first place. This is everyone's problem and no single person or group is at fault more than the other. The current situation is the result of many private and public missteps over multiple years (covering multiple presidencies). The complexity of this whole economic situation will require multiple approaches to be fixed so it'd be nice to see a little more respect about others opinions rather than branding them idiots for not agreeing.

Aug 08, 2011
Wrong... Wrong.... and uhm..... Wrong...

Anyone who claims otherwise is profoundly ignorant of the last 30 years of recent history, and is guilty of employing a low brow blanket condemnation of everyone in place of a reasoned, attribution of blame based on evidence.

And it is this evidence that causes 98 percent of all scientists to be Liberal.

"This bickering back and forth is one of the main reasons the US is in this situation in the first place." - Spiffy


I'm a both a Democrat and a chemical engineer. You're a fanatic who is no different than the others whom you oppose at the other end of the political spectrum.

Aug 08, 2011
I consider someone as "smart" when they use logical reasoning based on valid assumptions to support their arguments.

I consider someone as "not smart" when they use logical fallacies, straw men, ad hominems, non sequiturs, and biased generalizations to support their arguments.

http://en.wikiped...allacies

Or people that use Wikie as a reference.

Spending is NOT controlled because that is what the 'progressives' wanted with entitlements. That way they won't have face the beneficiariess at the ballot box every two years.
Even if ALL 'discretionary' spending were eliminated, entitlements will soon take ALL of the GNP.

The first job of a politician is to be reelected, not do what is right.
Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money.

Aug 08, 2011
Or people that use Wikie as a reference.


What does the fact that I used wiki have to do with anything? That's an ad homin... ohhhh I get it.

Also, are you suggesting that logical fallacies, straw men, ad hominems, non sequiturs, and biased generalizations are valid methods of debate?

(If you don't know what those are, feel free to use the handy wiki links I provided above)

Aug 08, 2011
The govt can take ALL the money from the rich, and more, and it would still not be enough...how will the 'progressive' pay for next year?
But doncha see MJ, we've got to destroy the old to make room for the new. Just like the way the obsolete antebellum slave infrastructure had to be destroyed to create room for the industrial revolution to take hold there.

Not to mention the 1/3 of the southern pops who were slaves and had to be dispersed throughout the north and west, and who needed room and jobs waiting for them.

Whats that section in the bible about the end times which says in effect that, just when you think you are safe, here comes the Angel of Death for you? Never can find that.

The rich will suffer just like everyone else. The techno changes approaching will eclipse even the industrial revolution. The world must be Prepared.

Fire Sale! Everything Must GO!!! Haha

Crazy Eddie - his prices are INSANE!! (That guy still in jail? Great freemarketer...)

Aug 09, 2011
The first job of a politician is to be reelected, not do what is right.
Interesting. Since you ARE a politician, and posting from work, you just called yourself someone that does not do right. Which is clear in the nonsense you post even without us knowing that you are using taxpayer money to insult taxpayers.

For those whining about the toxic nature of the posts here please keep in mind that Marjon, Freethinking and several others here consider words like liberal, progressive and science to be thing that only commie pinko thieving monsters would be for. So it should come as no surprise that they get the same back in return.

However I do wish the Canadian would drop the term TARD as it makes him look like an idiot. Even when the post is otherwise correct. After all Marjon is NOT a tard. He is a lying hypocritical troll but he is not a tard.

Unless he actually believes the contradictory crap he is pushing. But trolls rarely believe the crap they write.

Ethelred

Aug 09, 2011
Since you ARE a politician,
Who says? You need to be more skeptical.
I used 'progressive' to describe what those who think they are progressive do and advocate. 'Progressives' used to call themselves 'liberal'. I put these words in quotes because what 'progressives/liberal' advocate and support only make progress towards a more socialist state.
If this makes those who feel they are 'progressive' or 'liberal' uncomfortable, there may be hope for you.

Aug 09, 2011
Do you put your straw men in fields to scare the crows away? You have so many I figure you should put them to use (since they're of no actual use in a debate or discussion).

Aug 09, 2011
"I'm a both a Democrat and a chemical engineer." - Spiffy

And ignorant of the last 40 years of your own American history.

That is why you have lost your nation. Political ignorance and apathy among Liberals and Independents.



You've convinced me. Run for election, tell me your district, and I will move there to vote for you. I have seen the light and the future shall be glorious with you shepherding us sheeple!

Aug 09, 2011
VD, conservatives have been against spending for a long time. In Canada and in the US. It is the progressives that constantly push/demand to spend.

I'm with Rygg. I use progressive to describe what those who think they are progressive do and advocate. I know history enough to know something about the heros and founders of the modern progressive movements and how evil they were.

Aug 09, 2011
@notthinking:
VD, conservatives have been against spending for a long time. In Canada and in the US. It is the progressives that constantly push/demand to spend.

Once again, you demonstrate that you are hopelessly uneducated and simply talking out of your ass about things of which you are clueless, in no small part because you are a religious and ideological cripple.

In CANADA it was the LIBERALS, or 'Progressives' as you call them, under Jean Chretien and his appointed finance minister Paul Martin in the mid-nineties to early 2000s that got our country's fiscal house IN ORDER. Under Martin's stewardship Canada eliminated its deficit, accumulated surpluses and began to pay down its debt. (BTW, that's not to say that I don't think Harper's Conservatives haven't since done pretty much as well as could be hoped for given how American public & private mismanagement has soured the world economy.)

But for god's sake, man, GET A CLUE before you open your bullshit spewer!

Aug 09, 2011
Who says? You need to be more skeptical.
Since YOU have NEVER said you weren't a politician and only tried to attack SH credibility it is quite clear that you are one. When people try to evade like that it is usually, indeed almost always, the case that the person whose credibility is being attacked has nailed it. Thus it is unreasonable to assume that you are not a politician.

And I thank you for doing that for the umpteenth time.

'Progressives' used to call themselves 'liberal'.
No. Funny how you are willing to lie about so much but can't bring yourself to lie that you aren't a politician.

If this makes those who feel they are 'progressive' or 'liberal' uncomfortable, there may be hope for you.
You lies don't make me feel uncomfortable. Just tired of you.

Again I thank you for taking the bait. You did exactly what was expected. Attacked the source and hope no would notice that you did not say you weren't a politician.

Ethelred

Aug 09, 2011
LIBERALS, or 'Progressives' as you call them, under Jean Chretien and his appointed finance minister Paul Martin in the mid-nineties to early 2000s that got our country's fiscal house IN ORDER. Under Martin's stewardship Canada eliminated its deficit, accumulated surpluses and began to pay down its debt.

It's not what I call them. It's what they call themselves. It sounds like Canada found some classical liberals. But then you still have socialist health care and tried to stop people from seeing private doctors.

What lies?
"Until FDR, "progressive" was actually the most common term used to describe the mainstream of American leftism. In what can be considered an early example of triangulation, FDR instead chose to call himself a "liberal," thereby poaching some of Hoover's turf while also distancing himself from the left-wing label "progressive." http://mydd.com/2...tymology

Aug 09, 2011
History lesson of Canada please see Reform Party of Canada. It was they that started up the debate about the deficit.

Though not the best source, it should remind Canadians how a small conservative voice made major changes in the Canadian deficit debate.
http://en.wikiped...f_Canada

Aug 09, 2011
And it was Newt Gingrich and Republicans who put a leash on liberals in the mid 90s.

Aug 10, 2011
I have never encountered a Conservative who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
I have. You must be young. American Conservativism didn't go batshit insane till Reagan became President. Most don't even have a clue that they are telling lies. Rush had to have know that he lied UNLESS he has lost his mind. The latter seems possible.

What lies?
This was just one amongst many.
And it was Newt Gingrich and Republicans who put a leash on liberals in the mid 90s.


And I want to point out that once again you had the opportunity to say that you weren't a politician and once again you attacked the messenger instead.

It couldn't be more clear that Skeptic Heretic was right. You a politician AND you post here on the taxpayers dime.

Ethelred

Aug 10, 2011
If the govt can 'legally' plunder, why shouldn't the people?
"Economic Uncertainty Leading to Global Unrest"
http://www.cnbc.c...44073673

Aug 10, 2011
"For nearly five years weve had massive and unprecedented run ups in government spending and debt in the United States and around the world. Weve had vast expansion of government powers over banks, energy policy, financial markets, health care and other sectors. Weve had staggering and unprecedented monetary policy interventions across Europe and in the United States. All of which have produced no growth and lousy job numbers, with the likelihood that the debts may not be repaid as a result. And the charge is laid that a small cadre of congenitally ineffectual free market libertarians is the cause of it all."
http://opinion.fi...a-party/
Too bad socialists are too afraid to take credit for their accomplishments. After all, prosperity is not their objective, power and control is.

Aug 10, 2011
If the govt can 'legally' plunder, why shouldn't the people?
Thank you for that admission that you are wasting taxpayer's money when you post here.

Too bad socialists are too afraid to take credit for their accomplishments.
Too bad you aren't doing what you are paid to do instead of posting lies here.

Corruption is so popular with politicians that hate government. No wonder they call everyone but themselves corrupt.

Ethelred

Aug 10, 2011
Don't worry:
"We Can't Even Cut Programs That Don't Work"
http://www.realcl...176.html

It's not surprising Ethel wants to continue lying. That's what being a 'progressive' is all about.
SH lies about me and Ethel repeats the lies. What a surprise!

Aug 10, 2011
History lesson of Canada please see Reform Party of Canada. It was they that started up the debate about the deficit.
Wow, the boy who gave up his brain tries to save face with a misleading reference to Refoooooorrrrmmm! (as we use to say 'round here). You know, FreeFromThinking, some of us were actually THERE. No brain, no face; shit, boy, you're starting to look like some kind of monster out of zombie B-movie!

Just the idea that you would try to co-opt what was so hard won by the Liberals at the time with such a LAME reference to a political party that was hardly even on the radar back in '94 makes me wonder if you're not actually suffering from organic brain damage. Do you have health insurence? If so, then USE IT!

The deficit debate actually started back in Trudeau's latter yrs. as PM. FAIL!

Chretien's were MAJORITY governments, meaning Refoooorm! had no real pull. FAIL!

In 1993 CND's credit rating was dropped to AA plus, THAT'S what made things get serious. FAIL!

Aug 10, 2011
n 1993 CND's credit rating was dropped to AA plus, THAT'S what made things get serious. FAIL!

Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money.

Aug 10, 2011
Too bad socialists are too afraid to take credit for their accomplishments. After all, prosperity is not their objective, power and control is.


That's what being a 'progressive' is all about.


So I feel like you don't know what a straw man is and why it's not an acceptable debate tactic to anyone who uses logic to form their responses (PS, above two quotes are straw man responses that you use).

Creating a "straw man" is when someone (take Ethelred in this case) makes an argument. You then construct a "straw man" to represent Ethelred. In this thread you use the terms progressive and socialist. You then assume the position of the "straw man" on either the topic at hand or another topic completely and attempt to refute that point (often with a link to a blog post or with a rhetorical question).

By doing this, you fail to engage in the actual debate/discussion.

Aug 10, 2011
Wow, the boy who gave up his brain tries to save face with a misleading reference to Refoooooorrrrmmm! (as we use to say 'round here).


You've been watching too much Air Farce ;)

Aug 10, 2011
I don't create straw people.
Ehtel and many others here are 'progressive' and do support socialism based upon what they write.
Socialism is as socialism does, not who they say they are.

Aug 10, 2011
"The Federal Housing Finance Agency said Wednesday it is seeking input from investors on how to rent homes owned by government-controlled mortgage companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and the Federal Housing Administration."
http://hosted.ap....13-18-31

As the socialist turns....

Aug 10, 2011
Ehtel and many others here are 'progressive' and do support socialism based upon what they write.


But there is no slippery slope. When you start equating socialism, progressivism, communism, liberalism... There are different words for these -isms because they're different things. There may be some overlapping values, but that still does not equate them and using the terms interchangeably simply shows a lack of understanding for the debate.

Basically when you start telling someone what they're thinking, what they support, what they believe and who their heroes are ("progressive heroes" like Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc), what you're doing is attempting to transfer the negative aspects of the progressive straw man you've created in your mind onto the person you're debating.

I've never agreed 100% with any party I've ever voted with. I don't think I know anyone in real life who does either. The straw man you've created, however, does. And that's who you're arguing with.

Aug 10, 2011
Wow, the boy who gave up his brain tries to save face with a misleading reference to Refoooooorrrrmmm! (as we use to say 'round here).


You've been watching too much Air Farce ;)

HEY! That's ROYAL CANADIAN Air Farce to you Javinator!

And good luck, man! And happy hunting and all that!

Aug 10, 2011
Progressives love to re-write history, even Canadian History. I lived in Canada when the reform movement sprang up. The progressive media used the same tatics on them as the progressive media is doing now to the tea party.

Progressive tactic. Dismiss, lie, insult, deny, shout, riot.

FHA is the cause of so many people loosing their homes, then they turn around and rent the homes. Can this be said to be government enslaving people?

Aug 10, 2011
Progressives love to re-write history, even Canadian History
Well, that's what you've maliciously just failed to do.

Maybe you haven't yet clued in, but anybody can look up the facts (Martin, Chretien, Canada's debt history) and *immediately* see you're full of it, as usual.

The bullshit you spew doesn't change what was actually done and by whom, freefromthinking. What a complete, total and utter hypocrite you are.

Aug 10, 2011
because they're different things.

No they are not.
All support more govt control of private property and the subversion of the law to those ends.
As Hayek noted, it was very easy for Germans to support national socialism because the socialists/communists had already destroyed classical liberalism.
From the perspective of free markets and private property rights, 'liberals', 'progressives', socialists, communists, fascists, ... all want more govt control of private property. They may just disagree who will be wielding the power of govt.
A lion, a shark or a cobra are all different species, but they will all kill you if you are not careful.

Aug 10, 2011
n 1993 CND's credit rating was dropped to AA plus, THAT'S what made things get serious. FAIL!

Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money.

I can tell you like that line. You slink around PhysOrg just waiting to pie us in the face with it, don't you ;)

O.k., how about about its corollary: Unregulated capitalism is great until everybody else runs out of money.

Yeah. I like that. It's about as pithy and as brilliant, eh?

Aug 10, 2011
It's not surprising Ethel wants to continue lying. That's what being a 'progressive' is all about.
Lying is for life and death or a good joke. You are neither. Not even a good joke.

SH lies about me and Ethel repeats the lies. What a surprise!
That is not saying you are not a politician. Such a simple thing for confirmed liar to do yet you can't bring yourself to do it. Odd that.

I don't claim to understand you behavior on this but you do keep doing it. Instead of saying you are not a politician you call the other person a liar. Bizarre even for a person that lies as much as you.

Ethelred

Aug 10, 2011
Progressives shout it is the conservatives fault we are in debt, not progressives spending more, and wanting to spend even more, than we make that is the problem.

Lying and progressives go hand in hand, like progressives and spending.

Aug 10, 2011
"Bankers like to call this creating new money. Indeed, it is the process of creating money out of thin air and then charging interest on it.

Peter Schiff, president of Euro Pacific Capital, says the government is trying to perpetuate a phony economy based on borrowing and spending. The bond bubble will soon burst and will ultimately lead to a collapse of the dollar and an inflationary depression worse than anything any of us have ever seen. It will be an unmitigated disaster, warns Schiff.

Our rulers at the behest of the international bankers want an unmitigated disaster and have anointed Obama to deliver it. "
http://www.infowa...ne-deal/

Aug 11, 2011
being insulted by someone whose username initials are VD is hilarious. VD will you riot in the street when the government stops giving you money or expects something from you like your friends in England?
http://www.dailym...ths.html

Progressives VD and rioting seem to go hand in hand!

Aug 11, 2011
A lion, a shark or a cobra are all different species, but they will all kill you if you are not careful.


So now you're equating lions, sharks, and cobras? How does that analogy support your position of gross generalization? If anything it supports what I'm saying even more.

A shark, a lion, and a cobra are related is that they will all kill you if you're not careful. How else are they related? They're definitely not so closely related that I would refer to a shark as a lion or a cobra and vice versa.

Imagine the dumbstruck look on someone's face if you actually told them in real life that a shark, a cobra, and a lion were essentially the same thing because they all kill stuff and that the words are interchangeable.

Similarly, progressivism, communism, and liberalism are all related in some ways and different in others. It's because of their significant differences they shouldn't used interchangeably.

Aug 11, 2011
So you agree javinator that progressivism, communism, and liberalism are similar in their endings. They all lead to distruction.

One is poison, one will cut you in half, and one will rip you to shreds.

So the real question is communism the poison or is it progressivism or liberalism, and so on with cutting in half or ripping you to shreds.

Aug 11, 2011
A shark, a lion, and a cobra are related is that they will all kill you if you're not careful. How else are they related?

They are all related in that the hippo kill more than all three of them.

Thank you, that is all.

Aug 11, 2011
A shark, a lion, and a cobra are related is that they will all kill you if you're not careful. How else are they related?

They are all related in that the hippo kill more than all three of them.

Thank you, that is all.
So, as I'm following this, the hippo represents religion am I right?

Aug 11, 2011
So, as I'm following this, the hippo represents religion am I right?

I was just throwing that in as a little bit of absurdism in a minor attempt to derail another mind-numbing political debate, but that's actually a very appropriate attribution.

Aug 11, 2011
So, as I'm following this, the hippo represents religion am I right?

I was just throwing that in as a little bit of absurdism in a minor attempt to derail another mind-numbing political debate, but that's actually a very appropriate attribution.
Oh and I thought you were exemplifying the exactitude of word calculationisms. My mistake.

Aug 11, 2011
I would say that Marjon and Antithinking had gone downhill on this thread but since they started with absurd lies they actually are still the bottom.

When are you up for reelection Marjon?

Ethelred

Aug 11, 2011
So you agree javinator that progressivism, communism, and liberalism are similar in their endings. They all lead to distruction.


No, I really didn't say anything like that.

Here's a quick summary:

I agreed some dangerous animals can kill you. Then I said that just cause they have something in common doesn't mean they're the same animal. Then I said that those different political stances are related in some ways, but different in others.

Also: destruction.

Aug 11, 2011
Then I said that those different political stances are related in some ways,

And those ways destroy individual liberty, private property and prosperity.
For those who truly care about individual liberty, private property, and prosperity, how they differ is immaterial.

Aug 11, 2011
The hippo represents the vegan socialist, vegetarian killer.

Aug 11, 2011
Science funding cutbacks morphs into greedy Hippos. So funny I'm in tears.

Aug 12, 2011
The hippo represents the vegan socialist, vegetarian killer.


Captain Marjon of the SPS Atlas Jerked announced today that he would forgo the Capitalistic Wonders of Piracy and Kidnap to go on a voyage up the Nile to wage war against the hideous monsters Hippos.

"those very vile vegans verify the horror that is Progressive Vegetarian Eats. Their killing of humans that could have made excellent slaves for the Somali Engine of Commerce shows that there is no such thing as a vegetarian. They all munch on human flesh. Clearly the human vegans are following the example of these horrid. In the dark of night the members of Peta feast upon the flesh of the Children of AnnRandLand Somalia."

"There can be no doubt. They are both vegetarians and thus they must be be eaters of the humans. If anyone has ever even thought of eating a sprout or bowl of rice they cannot be trusted near Ann Rand Worshiping Somali Capitalists."

Yes there is more

Aug 12, 2011
"Unfortunately the diet of these vile Peta members has degraded their value on the Auction Block at AnnRandCity and thus we have to destroy them instead of making them useful members of the Somali Pirate Engine of Commerce by selling them on the slave bloc at AnnRand City, Somalia."

Captain Marjon then weighed anchor (twenty pounds) and headed north towards the Red Sea while the All Kazoo AnnRandMarchingBand played the Somali National Anthem. He plans on taking the Suez Canal hostage to force the British Navy to back off his fleet of Three Masted Canoes and assorted Zodiacs armed with massive brass 12 pounders firing copies of Atlas Jerked and Soda Fountain Jerked.

Ethelred

Aug 12, 2011
For those who truly care about individual liberty, private property, and prosperity, how they differ is immaterial.


How the differ matters. Being willfully ignorant is never the answer, regardless of what side of the debate you're on.

Aug 12, 2011
Captain Marjon then weighed anchor (twenty pounds) and headed north towards the Red Sea while the All Kazoo AnnRandMarchingBand played the Somali National Anthem...

Haarrdie matie! And in the finest PhysOrg tradition, I'll like to nominate THAT for Post of the Week! Aye!

Aug 12, 2011
The hippo represents the vegan socialist, vegetarian killer.

Well! At least no one can say you don't have some kind of sense of humour! I can just picture Bluehigh all cracked up there!

Aug 12, 2011
Progressives shout it is the conservatives fault we are in debt, not progressives spending more, and wanting to spend even more, than we make that is the problem.

Lying and progressives go hand in hand, like progressives and spending.

It's obvious to anyone with a brain that both the left and right spent on their pet projects until they could spend no more, in both NA and Europe. On the one hand it could be generous social programs and entitlements, on the other outlandish military spending. This is the default behaviour for politicians of all stripes because they want to please their constituents and other supporters. Only jabbering monkeys with their ears plugged and eyes closed could claim one side blames it all on the other.

In America, however, conservatives HAVE engaged in massive spending WHILE cutting revenue sources, which means either they have become completely disconnected from reality or something like what VD suggests is actually motivating them.

Aug 12, 2011
And now the TeaPublicans want deficit spending to stop COLD TURKEY and claim this won't have any significant impact on the economy.

This leads me to lean more toward the completely disconnected from reality thesis than the nefarious plan thesis because:

1. The above clearly falls under the "I have no idea how people, the economy or reality actually work, just how my [broken] Randian model tells me this should work" banner.

2. I'd think if they were trying to send the Fed into bankruptcy they'd just keep the spending going and/or try to remove the Feds ability to create more money...of course we *do* see the latter demand from some of them, though they claim it's about controlling inflation, eh Marjon?

Besides, even if they had such a nefarious plan, given TeaPublicans' apparently loose grip on reality I have trouble believing they could actually pull it off. Though they might well screw us all over trying.

Aug 12, 2011
How the differ matters

If a dictator steals your property or if it is a democratic mob, your property has been stolen.
What is the difference?

Aug 12, 2011
Physicists ignored cold fusion research twenty years due their fear of future jobs and carriers. Now we are facing energetic and financial crisis because of high oil prices and these guys are just suffering the consequences of their shortsighted ignorance.

http://en.wikiped...sibility

http://www.natura...ine.html

http://www.wired...._pr.html

Aug 12, 2011
How the differ matters

If a dictator steals your property or if it is a democratic mob, your property has been stolen.
What is the difference?

That's an, ah, let's call it a rather "reductive" way of putting it, though it's still really an attempt at the same kind of equivocation (specifically semantic shift equivocation). Now, I know it's quite irrelevant to you that this is universally decried as a logical fallacy and therefor a useless way to make an argument. But hey, even if it were, that wouldn't save you here, because EVEN IN THOSE TERMS there's a fundamental qualitative difference.

It's that in a democracy you are part of the mob that "steals" your property. You may even have supported the "theft" by voting for or making use of the services the "theft" pays for.

And if you didn't vote or USE any of those and can't deal with the cost ("theft"), Christ man, SOMALIA AWAITS. It's CALLING to you, Marjon. GO THERE. Surely there's a dime to be made on the famine!

Aug 12, 2011
Think about it, Marjon (Hell, I'm sure you have!): you could convert to Islam and have multiple wives (and they'll never be overweight!), arm yourself to the teeth (you'll need it!), even build up your own army (oops, 'scuse me, I meant "defense force"). You said you want the right to print your own money and used Somalia as an example, well why wait? You can do that right now over there!

Come on, man, SOMALIA: your own cache of weapons, your own cache of women, Hell, your own cache of cash! You'll be able to screw around with the girls on piles of money while firing AK-47s into the air, laughing at us who are still back in NA and Europe filling out our INCOME TAX forms!

It will be like PARADISE, man!

Can't you hear them calling? "...Marjon, come and play with us...for ever and ever and ever..."

Now come on lad, GO! Just pleas don't bring your iPad.

I'll be filling out my income tax form, thanks!

Aug 12, 2011
If it is wrong for you to steal my property, why is it right for a gang to pass laws making it 'legal' to steal my property?
Conversely, as the rioters in the UK demonstrate, if the state (the legal mob) doesn't respect private property, why should an ad hoc mob respect private property?

Aug 12, 2011
If it is wrong for you to steal my property, why is it right for a gang to pass laws making it 'legal' to steal my property?
Your still equivocating: it's not "theft" that's the point. You can call it "theft" if you like and I can call you a rock star, but that won't turn you into Bono.

You're one of the gang members. Not so in a dictatorship. You get a voice. That's the price for being in one of the many variants of democracy. It's the price of being a member of society. GROW UP. It's almost like you're still 6yrs old and all that matters is being king of the hill.
Conversely, as the rioters in the UK demonstrate,
HOW the HELL did they demonstrate THAT:
if the state (the legal mob) doesn't respect private property, why should an ad hoc mob respect private property?
The STATE is still legally BOUND--that's how they respect it: by taking only what is agreed to in LAW--an ad hoc mob does not act that way. HOW CAN THAT NOT BE BLEEDINGLY OBVIOUS!? WTF is WRONG with you?

Aug 12, 2011
a democratic mob, your property has been stolen.
Oh great Captain of Piracy based theft it is NOT a mob if it is democratic voting based on laws. If you don't like the laws you can vote with your feet.

So go, go raise that vast fleet of rubber duckies, mount those arcaic smooth bore cannons, and join the other pirates in the warm waters of Somalia where theft is called commerce by YOU.

Taxes are part of living in decent society instead Somalia which you made many idiotic posts that show it as a AnnRandWonderLand. Since you simply don't want to pay the cost of living here quit stealing taxpayer money, shirking your duty as an elected official by posting here at work AND GO to your WonderLand.

Ethelred

Aug 12, 2011
The STATE is still legally BOUND--that's how they respect it: by taking only what is agreed to in LAW--

Agreed to by law?
So a 50% 1 majority (a mob ) can pass laws authorizing the state to plunder the wealth of 50%-1?
That is the definition of 'agreed to'?

"President Barack Obama's signature healthcare law suffered a setback on Friday when an appeals court ruled that it was unconstitutional to require all Americans to buy insurance or face a penalty."
http://ca.news.ya...777.html

The president has no plans to follow the LAW. The court has ruled and the president ignores the Court. What law?

Aug 12, 2011
WTF is WRONG with you?
He feels a smidgeon of guilt for stealing from his constituents by posting here on their dime. This tiny, very tiny, bit of guilt has festered in what passes for his mind and driven him to tell more lies to cover up that tiny bit of reality that infests his otherwise reality free brain.

Or maybe he is just a green and scaly troll.

Ethelred

Aug 12, 2011
The STATE is still legally BOUND--that's how they respect it: by taking only what is agreed to in LAW--

Agreed to by law?

"President Barack Obama's signature healthcare law suffered a setback on Friday when an appeals court ruled that it was unconstitutional to require all Americans to buy insurance or face a penalty."
http://ca.news.ya...777.html

The president has no plans to follow the LAW. The court has ruled and the president ignores the Court. What law?
Yes and another court ruled in the opposite direction, which you know. Only one more court to go. He'll probably win, in which case he WILL be following the law.

As has been pointed out the uninsured ARE consuming health care which already costs everybody more. Why not make them pay for it? That sounds very unprogressive (regressive?) to me. Nicht wahr?

Hey - maybe marjon is a JUDGE? From Scranton??

Aug 12, 2011
"when the law, by means of its necessary agent, force,
imposes upon men a regulation of labor, a method or a subject of
education, a religious faith or creedthen the law is no longer
negative; it acts positively upon people. It substitutes the will of
the legislator for their own wills; the initiative of the legislator
for their own initiatives. When this happens, the people no
longer need to discuss, to compare, to plan ahead; the law does
all this for them. Intelligence becomes a useless prop for the
people; they cease to be men; they lose their personality, their
liberty, their property."
"Nothing can enter the public treasury
for the benefit of one citizen or one class unless other citizens
and other classes have been forced to send it in. If"
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf

Aug 12, 2011
"The law can be an instrument of
equalization only as it takes from some persons and gives to
other persons. When the law does this, it is an instrument of
plunder.
With this in mind, examine the protective tariffs, subsidies,
guaranteed profits, guaranteed jobs, relief and welfare schemes,
public education, progressive taxation, free credit, and public
works. You will find that they are always based on legal plunder,
organized injustice."
"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses
the distinction between government and society. As a
result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done
at all."
http://www.physor...firstCmt

Aug 12, 2011
""Actually, what is the political struggle that we witness? It is
the instinctive struggle of all people toward liberty. And what is
this liberty, whose very name makes the heart beat faster and
shakes the world? Is it not the union of all libertiesliberty of
conscience, of education, of association, of the press, of travel, of
labor, of trade? In short, is not liberty the freedom of every person
to make full use of his faculties, so long as he does not harm
other persons while doing so? Is not liberty the destruction of all
despotismincluding, of course, LEGAL despotism?"
"It must be admitted that the tendency of the human race
toward liberty is largely thwarted, especially in France. This is
greatly due to a fatal desirelearned from the teachings of
antiquitythat our writers on public affairs have in common:
They desire to set themselves above mankind in order to
arrange, organize, and regulate it according to their fancy."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf

Aug 12, 2011
Hey - maybe marjon is THIS guy:
http://www.youtub...a_player

-An outstanding example of a free marketeer-

Aug 12, 2011
"Usually, however, these gentlementhe reformers, the
legislators, and the writers on public affairs do not desire to
impose direct despotism upon mankind. Oh no, they are too
moderate and philanthropic for such direct action. Instead, they
turn to the law for this despotism, this absolutism, this omnipotence.
They desire only to make the laws."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf

Aug 12, 2011
I love the posts Pirate Captain Marjon makes. They are dependent on the paranoid delusions of other sociopaths. People like Marjon that want the society but refuse to contribute to it.

Of course in Marjon's case he is a reverse contributor since he steal from his constituents and could never get their vote if they knew what he was doing with their money on this site.

Ethelred

Aug 12, 2011
"As long as these (socialist) ideas prevail, it is clear that the responsibility of government is enormous. Good fortune and bad fortune, wealth and destitution, equality and inequality, virtue and
viceall then depend upon political administration. It is burdened
with everything, it undertakes everything, it does everything;
therefore it is responsible for everything.
If we are fortunate, then government has a claim to our gratitude; but if we are unfortunate, then government must bear the blame."

"In regulating industry, the government has contracted to
make it prosper; otherwise it is absurd to deprive industry of its
liberty. And if industry now suffers, whose fault is it?"

http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf

Aug 12, 2011
"Mr. de Saint-Cricq would extend his philanthropy only to some of the industrial groups; he would demand that the law control the consumers to benefit the producers.
Mr. Considerant would sponsor the cause of the labor groups; he would use the law to secure for them a guaranteed minimum of clothing, housing, food, and all other necessities of life.
Mr. Louis Blanc would sayand with reasonthat these minimum guarantees are merely the beginning of complete fraternity;
he would say that the law should give tools of production
and free education to all working people.
Another person would observe that this arrangement would still leave room for inequality; he would claim that the law should give to everyoneeven in the most inaccessible hamlet
luxury, literature, and art.
All of these proposals are the high road to communism..."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf

Aug 12, 2011
"....legislation will then bein fact, it already isthe battlefield for the fantasies and greed of everyone."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf
If a Capitalist steals your property or if it is a Libertarian mob, your property has been stolen.

The difference is that capitalists must persuade and no such Libertarian mob has never existed.
The same can't be said of socialist mobs, or 'progressive' mobs or...

Aug 12, 2011
The STATE is still legally BOUND--that's how they respect it: by taking only what is agreed to in LAW--

Agreed to by law?
So a 50% 1 majority (a mob ) can pass laws authorizing the state to plunder the wealth of 50%-1?
That is the definition of 'agreed to'?
NO. It means 50% & 1 *within the bounds laid out by a democracy's Constitution and Bill/Charter of Rights* (if it has one of the latter). It's those, as upheld by a strong justice system, that prevent your simple 50% & 1 from degenerating into mob rule. That's why we have them.

"President Barack Obama's signature healthcare law suffered a setback on Friday..."
Well thanks for making my point!

The president has no plans to follow the LAW. The court has ruled and the president ignores the Court. What law?

Lies, Marjon. You know very well this is STILL working its way around the legal arena: "The legality of the individual mandate...is widely expected to be decided by the U.S. Supreme Court."

Aug 12, 2011
within the bounds laid out by a democracy's Constitution and Bill/Charter of Rights

What if the courts change the intent of the law?
Socialists claim the 'general welfare' clause enables their welfare state.
If one studies the meaning of the term, there is no way anyone could interpret their intent was to redistribute wealth.

How does class warfare promote 'the general welfare'?
Bastiat was correct. The law must be limited to defending the individual rights of all, not trying to make everyone 'equal'.
Socialism leads to the equal sharing of misery as Churchill said.

Aug 12, 2011
The Founding Fathers knew of diseases like bubonic plague that killed millions.
Barely had printing presses?
Gutenberg popularized that technology in the 1400s.
Ships were sailing the world. All sorts of new technology was being invented. Jefferson did his share as did Ben Franklin.

And of course they understood the destructive power of the modern welfare state. It had been attempted many times throughout history.

Aug 12, 2011
Socialism leads to the equal sharing of misery as Churchill said.
Socialism? Socialist? Did you find a socialist wandering about somewhere? Oh, wait, I thought we were talking about democracy! Oh, Marjon, that's just an other logical fallacy of yours. Equating communism to socialism and then socialism to DEMOCRACY. Wow. Does anyone vote in your Rand Wonderland? Are there any LAWS? Take two aspirin and post us in the morning.

As far as Churchill he also said democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried. And all the others includes Randpark Wonderland now as that, according to you at least is in force in Somalia.

Unregulated capitalism is great until everybody else runs out of money. See, that's what your Rand Wonderland leads to: Abject misery for most, paranoid happiness for a tiny few.

It's DEMOCRACY, Marjon, not Heaven. But your Rand Wonderland basically comes across as some kind of combined Wild West Jungle Hell.

Aug 12, 2011
Why don't the socialists demand Soros pay more taxes, or Teresa Hines?

If you all hadn't noticed I was quoting Bastiat' THE LAW.

So, VD, and the other socialists here, please justify your support of LAW that uses its force to take wealth. Justify your support of legal plunder as Bastiat described. When will your support of legal plunder end? As Bastiat notes, does it end when the govt confiscates enough wealth so all can have fine food and fine art?

Instead of challenging Bastiat's themes, which have been well demonstrated, the 'progressive' tries to shout down the opposition. Which, of course, means even the 'progressive' can't defend his socialism in the face of daily failure.

Aug 13, 2011
Egad, what a troll fest...

Vendicar, your assessment of Republicans is well-justified. However, you're missing the other 50% of the problem: the Democrats. Once upon a time they at least pretended to represent the little guy; ever since Clinton they are a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street (i.e. Republican-Lite.)

We *ARE* in Great Depression 2.0. We cannot inflate out of it. Our government is not allowed to "print" money: it can only _borrow_ money. Every dollar printed, was only able to be printed because an interest-bearing U.S. Treasury Note was sold to bring it into existence. Our currency is debt-backed. Our debt grows faster than our income, and faster than it can generate inflation. We have in fact crossed the line, already, where each additional dollar spewed forth by the Treasury generates less than 1 dollar gain in GDP.

We are in a debt-spiral, our entire financial sector is bankrupt, and our Federal Reserve is fresh-out of ammunition.

ctd.

Aug 13, 2011
Children have the right to life, the right to be protected, don't they VD?
That is the essence of The Law, defense of life, liberty and property.

Aug 13, 2011
Our economic policy has been to trash the Unions, open up "Free Trade", and export our industries into foreign nations. We are beset not only by deficit-spending on the Federal level, but also by chronic trade deficits. The former is an indirect transfer of wealth out of the country (to foreign bond-holders, most notably China and Japan); the latter is a direct transfer of wealth out of the country (to foreign exporters.)

The developing world is developing and thriving, in no small part thanks to our economic policies. Ever since Reagan, we have been either knowingly or unintentionally bleeding ourselves dry, so that the rest of the world may feed on our vitae.

Whatever the government does or doesn't do, Americans can't compete with indentured servants harnessed into labor camp-like factories in China, Indonesia, Bangladesh, and so on. We can't compete until our wages fall to the level of those indentured servants ( a little more to compensate for transportation overhead.)

ctd.

Aug 13, 2011
We won't be able to compete as long as we want clean water and fresh air: because these things cost money and raise the cost of doing business. We won't be able to compete until our water and air are as filthy as those in the developing world.

We won't be able to compete as long as we want safe and healthy working environment, an eight hour work-day, and a five-day work-week.

Either we devolve into a banana republic -- at which point we will finally be able to compete with all the other banana republics -- or we bring back Tariffs. Specifically, environmental and wage parity tariffs. Yes, that would instantly make all of our "cheap" goods vastly less affordable. They've only been "cheap" because they were being paid for by draining us of our wealth through the backdoor of "free trade".

In the meantime, we masked our economic bleed-out by blowing bubbles. Tech bubble under Clinton, housing under Bush, stocks under Obama. All of it futile, and only compounding the damage.

ctd.

Aug 13, 2011
We also "thrived" despite our economic bleed-out, by running up debts. Not just government debts: private debt has grown exponentially as well. People ran up credit cards, and paid for increasingly overpriced housing by borrowing increasingly obscene amounts of money. The U.S. and global economies were widely and openly heralded as a credit to the almighty American Consumer. A CREDIT, indeed, as it was all just one gigantic ongoing CREDIT bubble. One started by Reagan, and growing cancerously, pervasively, metastatically ever more lethal across all aspects and facets of our economy.

We got here thanks to several decades of economic Ponzi schemes.

In reality, Great Depression 2.0 was brought about exactly through the same mechanisms and for the same reasons as the original Great Depression: a "Gilded Age" enjoyed for a short while at the crushing cost of too much systemic debt. And just like with the original Great Depression, this one will take decades to work through.

ctd.

Aug 13, 2011
Pinkie, credit bubbles are created by the govt with a fiat currency and the 'progressive' Federal Reserve.
You are beginning to sound like Ross Perot or Buchanan.

Aug 13, 2011
Sooner or later, we will have to start by recognizing the bankruptcy of Wall Street. Every single one of our major banks is broke. The "assets" they are hiding on their balance sheets, have fantasy valuations that bear no semblance to reality. Citibank, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Chase Manhattan, you name them -- they are all broke. When the inevitability of this recognition finally dawns, the DOW and S&P500 will drop back to where they were before Reagan came into office (inflation-adjusted.)

Yes, we will have massive unemployment. 30-40% is virtually guaranteed now, and the longer we continue to play tricks and kick the can, the worse it will eventually be when we have to square up and eat the beans.

BOTH Republicans AND Democrats are owned by the very mega-banks that would be annihilated. Yet truth will be revealed the instant our creditors recognize us as the broke thieving grifters that we are, and cut us off. Going cold-turkey after a 30-year bender is a real b*tch...

Aug 13, 2011
And, of course, Pinkie won't blame the system, the govt control of the economy.
Nor will he recognize comparative advantage.

Aug 13, 2011
@troll,

I blame you, and Vendicar, and everyone like you. Ideological tools shouting partisan inanities past each other, while utterly oblivious to the actual reality. Both of you great shining examples of what money in politics can do to presumably initially intact human brain.

Aug 13, 2011
I answered, many times. The purpose of the law is organized defense of life, liberty and property.

Aug 13, 2011
This fact was repeatedly raised by progressives during the 80's
It was paid lip service. But the politicos are very adept at saying one thing, then doing something else when nobody's looking. Ironically, the person to actually try to champion it in a serious fashion was a flaming Libertarian (Ross Perot.) He was laughed out the door -- by BOTH parties.

Aug 13, 2011
Tax Cuts And 'Starving The Beast'
The most pernicious fiscal doctrine in history.
Yes, yes, but what about Free Trade? Clinton championed it. His corporate-owned DNC swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. Remember the "Policy of Engagement" with China (more like the "Policy of Sell-Out")? All of them Randite TeaParticans, by your interpretation, then?

Aug 13, 2011
Pinkie, it has been people like Adam Smith, Bastiat, Hayek, Mises who have been stating reality.
It is the socialists who have chosen to disregard reality to build their utopia. Are you angry for buying into the socialist fantasies Pinkie?

Hayek's Road to Serfdom is dedicated to the socialists of all parties.

BTW, tariffs made the 30s depression worse.

"In short, it was at a precarious time of depression that the Hoover administration chose to hobble international trade, injure the American consumer, and cripple the American farmers' export markets by raising tariffs higher than their already high levels. Hoover was urged to veto the SmootHawley Tariff by almost all the nation's economists, in a remarkable display of consensus, by the leading bankers, and by many other leaders. The main proponents were the Progressive bloc, the three leading farm organizations, and the American Federation of Labor. "
http://mises.org/...ter9.asp


Aug 13, 2011
Reading this: http://mises.org/...er9.asp,
Obama is following the failed example set by Hoover.

Aug 13, 2011
Tax Cuts And 'Starving The Beast'
The most pernicious fiscal doctrine in history.
Other than the evisceration of our manufacturing base, another huge reason why government is such a huge force in our economy these days, is because all the private actors are flat-broke. Too much leverage and too cute by a ton "financial innovation", that blew up in their faces. It wasn't due to any "Starving" of any "Beast". More like over-feeding the beast of Deregulation and financial gamesmanship, while turning a blind eye to all the fraud and theft and criminality that has become endemic to the system.

All of it: a set of BIPARTISAN "accomplishments".

Aug 13, 2011
all the private actors are flat-broke.

Who made them flat broke? A govt that is a huge force in the economy maybe?
What deregulation? Freddie and Fannie ARE govt agencies. They were required, by law, to purchase a certain quantity of mortgages.
It's good you are not happy Pinkie, but you need to look a little deeper for the blame. Maybe in the mirror?

Aug 13, 2011
people like Adam Smith, Bastiat, Hayek, Mises who have been stating reality.
Every single one of them would've argued for deregulation and free trade, with the same exact disastrous results.
BTW, tariffs made the 30s depression worse.
Removal of tariffs makes sense only for trading PARTNERS who are equally COMPETENT. When one of the "partners" uses SLAVE LABOR and POISONS its own land with the EXPLICIT goal of destroying the economic capacity on the other side of the trade equation and thus make them utterly dependent upon it for all production -- in that case, lack of tariffs to mitigate such ECONOMIC WARFARE is a policy of disaster. It is nothing short of TREASON, which is a point on which I agree with Vendicar. I just don't lay the blame exclusively on Republicans, because Democrats are EQUALLY guilty.

Aug 13, 2011
Who made them flat broke?
The Free Market did. When there are no rules, the meanest, baddest Brigand takes all, and runs away with it to some tax haven with no extradition treaty. Cutthroat capitalism respects no law, and ultimately it is exceptionally good at cutting its own throat.
A govt that is a huge force in the economy maybe?
Now it is, because it stepped in to hide the reality of economic contraction engendered by 30 years of self-destructive economic policies. Policies YOU and your ideological idols champion the loudest.
What deregulation?
We've been over this many times, troll. Repeal of Glass-Steagall, for one. Deregulation of derivatives, for another.
Freddie and Fannie ARE govt agencies.
And were minority players in the housing market, all the way until it started reaching such a crescendo that they had to step in to keep it going just a little longer.

Aug 13, 2011
"Barely had printing presses?
You went a bit overboard. Again.

Ben Franklyn WAS a printer. And he did fly the kite. The fairy story is the lighting bold striking the kite. That didn't happen. He lived rather a bit longer because of the that.

Of course Ben also pushed civic health and a national bank. He was all for lending via the government.

Marjon is careful to avoid this reality. Then again he seriously reality deficient at all times. Especially when he is up for election. None of this crap he posts gets mentioned.

Ethelred

Aug 13, 2011
Hush1 it would help if you gave us a clue at to who that was pointed at. This thread is so full of crap it is rather hard to distinguish just who you were replying to.

I sure can't figure it out.

Are you sure you want to deal with this? I am here to make fun of Marjon. He makes for good comedy.

Ethelred

Aug 13, 2011
You sunk (at sea!)over a trillion dollars in one human being: Usama.
And are still at it.

For that alone, you all deserve to fail, if not die.
Your math and your politics make no sense and
typifies this thread.
lol

Aug 13, 2011
"The GSEs' underwriting standards did not become more lax because of a lack of government regulation. Rather, the government pushed the GSEs to lower their standards in order to increase the availability of home mortgages for low-income Americans. "
"In 1996, the quota was set at 40%, and it continued to rise until 2008 when it reached 56%. Many commentators have argued that through these regulations, the government was promoting lower lending standards. The lower standards made it possible for nearly anyone to get a mortgage, even individuals with poor credit histories and little income."
"Today, the private market plays an even smaller role in the mortgage market than it did pre-2008 and the GSEs back almost the entire U.S. mortgage market. "
http://blogs.law....ieBP.pdf

Aug 13, 2011
"This thread is so full of crap it is rather hard to distinguish just who you were." - Ethelred

(Two words too many dropped)

Well...yes. The veil of Mist obscures everyone from view.
O.k. All in jest. All good in making fun. Makes sense.

(Mist=German word for the English word shit)
Und otto would like to give you a little Gift i think yes

Aug 13, 2011
And for the most part, NAFTA has been beneficial to the U.S.
Now you're starting to sound just like the el primo troll. NAFTA beneficial to the U.S.? How: by exporting production capacity to Mexico? NAFTA has had exactly the same motivation, and the same end-result, as similar "free trade" agreements and policies in Asia. Granted, China outdid Mexico when it came to polluting its lands and underpaying its overexploited workers, so to a large extent it has more than eclipsed Mexico as the most powerful vacuum amid America's giant sucking sound chorus. NAFTA was just the first and rather auspicious step down the road to perdition.
If by private actors you mean citizens
No, it's not what I mean, though the point about citizens is valid. I meant the private lenders and investors. The financial sector is bankrupt, and those few investors who aren't broke see nothing productive to invest in, so they speculate in the equities and commodities markets instead.

Aug 13, 2011
it would be 95% the result of Republican action based on Libertarian/Randite ideology and 5% Liberal error
That's where your partisan blinders get in the way. I don't know about Canada's politics a whole lot, but I can tell you here in the States the so-called "Liberals" have been nothing of the sort. True Liberals are an endangered species, if not altogether extinct, amid the echelons of professional politicians. One doesn't get to play on the national stage unless one is heavily funded and supported by Wall Street: if not, one gets vastly outspent and buried by those who are. I call the Democrats, Republican-lite. It's what they've been ever since the 90's. So I'd apportion the blame in more of a roughly 60%-40% ratio -- in terms of 'official' acts. But in reality, they are all bought and paid for, so based on actions rather than words, the responsibility truly is 50%-50%.

Aug 13, 2011
the TeaPublican demand for an immediate balancing of Federal Expenditures - These moves were championed by Wall Street Trader and Traitor Rick Santelli - these are demands that would have added another 30 million to the unemployed.
You don't get it. What Wall Street wants is more "Quantitative Easing". They WANT the government to keep propping them up and bailing them out. They don't give a rat's fart about national debt, or long-term fiscal health of the nation. They insisted back in 2008 that FASB change accounting rules and permit mark-to-fantasy; and to this day they continue to perpetrate fraud upon the markets by misrepresenting the true state of their balance sheets -- a massive fraud that has been made officially lawful on Obama's watch! In the meantime, they continue working frantically to offload their toxic garbage onto the government or some other sucker. But to do that, they need to keep the government borrowing the money to pay for that putrid sludge.

ctd.

Aug 13, 2011
Now you're starting to sound just like the el primo troll. NAFTA beneficial to the U.S.? How: by exporting production capacity to Mexico? NAFTA has had exactly the same motivation, and the same end-result, as similar "free trade" agreements and policies in Asia.
-By strengthening neighbors and allies and giving illegals a reason to stay home?

"Well it hasn't done a very good job of that has it?" - says PE

-Not yet says otto. Actually illegal immigration is down thanks to drug gangs patrolling Mex borders, funded by US drug consumption.

Aug 13, 2011
"Another 30 million unemployed" is an gross underestimate. The real impact, once the QE games stop and reality dawns, will be much worse. During the first Great Depression, unemployment reached well above 20%. This time we have managed to dig ourselves an even _deeper_ hole. I expect 30% unemployment, and possibly worse, when we finally do hit bottom. It's going to be riots in the streets and martial law. And the longer we keep pushing off the day of reckoning, the worse it's going to be when it finally arrives: because with every passing day, we compound our fiscal problems by refusing to deal with them.

Once upon a time, Democrats at least paid lip service to balanced budgets. No longer. Now, their policy is defined by Larry Summers and Tim Geithner and Ben Bernanke, and other such Wall Street hacks. They preach a horribly perverted and distorted version of Keynsianism, which can only lead to inevitable national bankruptcy.

Aug 13, 2011
the Bush tax cuts that turned the Clinton Surplus into a 440 billion per year deficit in 3 years
Another steaming load of partisan BS. Yes, the Bush cuts were disastrous. But there has never been any such thing as "the Clinton Surplus". This "surplus" was a result of fraudulent "revenues" skimmed from the .com bubble. The economy under Clinton was ridiculously distorted, not in a small part due to Clinton's willful and malicious refusal to actually police the markets -- in other words, to do his JOB as the Chief Executive in charge of implementing and enforcing the nation's laws and regulations! Clinton and his party were every bit as complicit in the overall deregulation saga as Bush Jr. and his Republicans. They are two sides of the same coin.

Not to mention, Clinton got his "surpluses" by playing games with budget numbers and stealing from the Social Security trust fund (which made Gore's exhortations for a 'lockbox' in 2000 all the more slap-in-the-face ironic.)

Aug 13, 2011
And today, Obama just as willfully and maliciously refuses to audit and resolve the bankrupt financial behemoths he inherited from Bush Jr. Rather than cleaning up the financial industry through lawful mechanisms of bankruptcy, putting all the mega-thieves and professional fraudsters behind bars while disgorging them of ill-gotten gains, and allowing the economy to rebound from a fresh start, Obama and his team of Wall Street financial vampires have consigned our country to a slow death by a thousand cuts, with the zombie banks doing all the cutting. I don't relish the thought of being eaten alive, by Wall Street from one end and our 'free trade' "partners" from the other. How many "Liberals" do we hear today stating these barren and basic truths, copping to what has to be done, and admitting that the country has tremendous hardship ahead before it is all over? All we continue to get is an unending stream of lies, evasions, deflections, and false promises.

Aug 14, 2011
a trade off between improving the Mexican Economy and Reducing the influx of illegal Mexican workers into the U.S. economy
Bull. The tradeoff is between producing things natively, vs. exploiting workers and the environment across the border. Why don't you ask Mexican farmers how much their economy was "improved" once Fed-subsidized U.S. produce and GM crops flooded their markets? As for reducing Mexican illegals, well that was clearly a raging success, wasn't it? LMAO Not that I'm one of those nutters who blame illegals for everything including the Original Sin, but you have to admit that NAFTA was never about any lofty plans or goals. It was about greed in the upper echelons: goose the profit margins by slashing input and labor costs. Short-term pleasure at the cost of long-term health. Economic heroin.

Aug 14, 2011
Adding 30 million to the unemployment ranks will increase the U.S. unemployment rate to just over 30 percent.
One has to figure there are about 200 million people in this country of working age. So... what sort of 'math' are you doing, and whose BS definitions are you using?
Cut spending and throw more people onto the unemployment line, or maintain your deficit - increasing future problems - until the economy improves.

Both are unpalatable options forced upon you by the last 40 years of Republican fiscal treason.

What are you going to do about it? Vote for Ron Paul?
One cannot save a junkie by mainlining more smack into his collapsing veins. The economy will not and CANNOT improve through deficit spending. The "stimulus" has long since become a chronic condition. We are now dependent on it for our "well-being", every bit like a drug addict becomes physiologically dependent on the drugs. If we want to live, we're going to have to quit. And it'll feel like hell.

Aug 14, 2011
Perhaps you would rather not have had the positive effects of the Obama Stimulus and now be in year 3 of a 30 year long Depression.
"Positive effects"??? Postponing the inevitable by another couple of election cycles, while condemning the nation to fiscal insolvency and refusing to deal with the real problems that are continuing to get worse. Awesome strategy. But it does generate nice bonuses on Wall Street... You're too blind to see the next collapse approaching. But don't even think you'll be safe in Canada. Europe is even worse off economically than U.S., Asia is addicted to European and American consumption. When this powder keg of economic lies and frauds detonates, every single economy out there will be blown to bits. And it's INEVITABLE. And the longer we put it off by piling on even more debt and fraud, the greater the eventual detonation. Nothing is 'free' in economics. There is no 'free money'. And unsustainable debt creation is not 'spending'. It's fraud.

Aug 14, 2011
you expect a complete overhaul of the banking industry to be conducted at the same time they are trying to prevent the system from collapsing?
This system cannot be saved. And we should not even try. The system does not DESERVE to be saved, even if it could be. The system is criminal and corrupt to its core.

Trying to save the system is the mistake Japan made two decades ago. They got 2 decades of deflation for their efforts. And their real estate is STILL unaffordable even today. But they entered into those two lost decades with hardly any debt, and they were a net exporter. We're up to our gills in debt already, and suffer from gigantic and chronic trade deficits, so won't be able to even repeat Japan's "accomplishments". We are headed the way of Argentina, Iceland, Ireland, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and so on. And yes, of course, it can't possibly happen here -- because we're different and special and favored by the gods -- right up until it does happen.

Aug 14, 2011
The U.S. financial industry is now stable
Sure it is. About as stable as it was in the summer of 2007.
American Corporations are sitting on 3 trillion in cash
But who's counting their debts and CDOs against that cash?
and the U.S. economy is out of recession, although still growing sluggishly.
Bullshit definitions cooked up for political convenience. Recessions are defined as contraction in GDP, but that definition doesn't take into account that GDP can be artificially inflated through debt issuance. When you lose your job and start living on your credit cards, you haven't regained fiscal health. We never left recession. We are in fact in a Depression. We've been trying to paper it over and put up smokescreens, and by the sound of you it does work well on naive partisans. But the charade is now coming to an end. The eCONomy is steadily loosing the CONfidence of the markets and the consumers. And QE3 is both politically and fiscally impossible.

Aug 14, 2011
Wall Street wants whatever will give it the most money.
Which just happens to coincide with your pleas to "save the system". Wall Street IS the system. And you, and Obama, and the rest of you hacks quite regardless of party affiliation, are worshiping at its altar whether you even realize it or not. You defend the very monster that repeatedly bends you over and rapes you. You have a raging case of Stockholm Syndrome.
Which laws did the Clinton Administration ignore with regard to market enforcement?
Which didn't it? False claims on budget statements and hinky accounting and auditing, pump-and-dump schemes, insider trading, willful misrepresentation of asset quality by brokers and investment advisers. You think it all got invented under Bush Jr.? The dot bomb catastrophe took years to develop, and no such development is possible in a lawful and well-regulated market.

Aug 14, 2011
I love the sound of rants in the morning
That hot tempered sound
It sounds it sounds
Like like
Ignorance

Which goes for rather a lot of people on this thread that don't understand how money can be created and what happens to economies that fail to do it.

I strongly recommend reading Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle. Yes its fiction, yes it long. Original published version is 3 900 page novels. Pocket book is about 8 I think. But you will begin to get an understanding of just how poverty stricken Europe and England were before the creation of national banks. The silver and gold were there. The land was there. There simply was no to way turn them into actual usable money due to antiquated financial instruments and the infrastructure sucked.

Ethelred

Aug 14, 2011
"trade has the effect of increasing social cooperation by allowing us to specialize and expand the division of labor. This is beneficial for everyone in society because it allows us to do more than is possible if everyone was in isolation. In other words, trade allows us to work together for our own benefits. We become dependent, in a good way, upon each other, which allows for greater cooperation and wealth. Take this away and conflict is the likely alternative outcome."
http://www.fee.or...borders/
Both Pinkie and VD argue the statist position. The STATE must control the economy. They just disagree on the method and who the STATE should grant special privilege.
When the STATE limits its force to protection of private property, the individuals in societies will, as they have for thousands of years, find ways to trade for MUTUAL benefit creating wealth.

Ethel promotes fiction instead or reality.

Aug 14, 2011
trade allows us to work together for our own benefits
That is only true of trade partners who are at approximately equivalent levels of economic development, and who have similar labor, wage, and environmental standards. When one of the "partners" exploits near-slave labor and destroys its environment for profit, trading with such a partner is economically equivalent to cutting your own throat.
Both Pinkie and VD argue the statist position. The STATE must control the economy.
No. The STATE must enforce contract law. The state must prosecute theft and fraud and embezzlement. The state must ensure that fiduciary duty is fulfilled. The state must make sure that everyone plays by the rules. The state must police the land and sea to eradicate brigands and pirates. The state must not look the other way while mega banks reorganize their structure and function along the lines of La Cosa Nostra.

Aug 14, 2011
@pinkster

You seem a little agitated of late. What's the matter? Your portfolio shrink during this latest downturn?
Yes, the Bush cuts were disastrous. But there has never been any such thing as "the Clinton Surplus". This "surplus" was a result of fraudulent "revenues" skimmed from the .com bubble. The economy under Clinton was ridiculously distorted, not in a small part due to Clinton's willful and malicious refusal to actually police the markets -- in other words, to do his JOB as the Chief Executive
I like to repeat the oft-repeated maxim that blaming the president for a bad economy is like blaming Ronald macdonald when you get a bad hamburger. Spokesmodels are not responsible for the content of the Happy Meal. Their job is to get you to buy it, and swallow it.

Thinking that these guys would be allowed to make decisions on the fly regarding Programs of such major Importance, and which take decades of Planning and Preparation to maintain, is absurd.

Aug 14, 2011
What's the matter?
I'm getting really tired of watching 300 million lemmings in a death march toward the cliff. It's well past time they stopped the pointless partisan games and meaningless confrontations over vacuous non-issues, and woke up to reality. I would like this dealt with while we still have a chance of surviving the cure.
blaming the president for a bad economy is like blaming Ronald macdonald when you get a bad hamburger
The President's job is to implement and enforce the nation's laws. That's the explicit designated purpose for the Executive Branch, per the U.S. Constitution. Failure to implement and enforce the law is a direct failure of the President.
Spokesmodels are not responsible for the content of the Happy Meal.
My point exactly. Our Presidents -- regardless of party -- are no longer doing the job they are supposed to do; they have devolved into bought-and-paid-for spokesmen.

Aug 14, 2011
That is only true of trade partners who are at approximately equivalent levels of economic development, and who have similar labor, wage, and environmental standards.

No, it does not, and empirical data and logic does not support your assertion.
The President's job is to implement and enforce the nation's laws.

Even if they are bad laws? I agree immigration laws should be enforced or changed, but Obamacare needs to be struck down along with the Federal Reserve Act.

Aug 14, 2011
Ethel:
"In 1913, the American banking system received a central bank on the European model. The U.S. was the last great nation to introduce central banking.[42]"
http://wiki.mises..._banking
And 100 years later, the US is no longer so great a nation following the path of other 'great nations' that have central national banks.

Aug 14, 2011
No, it does not, and empirical data and logic does not support your assertion.
Keep telling yourself that, troll.
Even if they are bad laws?
Absolutely, unequivocally, yes. The job of determining which laws are good or bad is reserved for the Judicial Branch. The job of creating laws is for the Legislative Branch, and if the people don't like the laws it makes they can elect different legislators. The President's job is to execute and enforce the law as legislated, period.
And 100 years later, the US is no longer so great a nation
It wasn't so great a nation 100 years ago, either. It became "great" when it was left the last man standing after WWII.

Aug 14, 2011
The President's job is to implement and enforce the nation's laws. That's the explicit designated purpose for the Executive Branch, per the U.S. Constitution. Failure to implement and enforce the law is a direct failure of the President.
You are naive
My point exactly. Our Presidents -- regardless of party -- are no longer doing the job they are supposed to do; they have devolved into bought-and-paid-for spokesmen.
You are naiver than I thought. The sorts of issues you and the rest of the American people are assuming are a presidents job to deal with, are parts of Programs decided upon decades and generations in advance. They are Planned, Organized, and set upon a preordained Course which is adjusted periodically only by People who fully understand what they are intended to accomplish and how they are supposed to Work.

No 4 year electee with a toothy smile and a way with words is going to be allowed to endanger these Plans because the people ask him to.
Cont

Aug 14, 2011
This is not even conspiracy stuff it is just common sense. Problems of overpopulation can be anticipated gens in advance and Strategies devised to deal with them regionally. The effects of tech innovation such as steamships and rail travel can be anticipated, such as enabling larger political units to form. Their integration and the assemblage of these political units HAS to be Planned, and these plans have to be followed and managed over the course of decades to ensure they are not disrupted. 

These Programs often involve many countries. They often cause people and populations with relative power and influence to suffer. But for civilization to survive and thrive they MUST happen. And presidents and parliaments can have the potential to unwittingly disrupt them.

JFK may have learned this the hard way.
http://www.youtub...a_player

There are Issues which the people absolutely cannot be allowed to decide. Including oftentimes their own fates.

Aug 14, 2011
The decline in America didn't start with the advent creation of a Central Bank.

20 years after the creation of the Federal Reserve, it triggers a worldwide Depression.

"Consumer prices in July rose 6.5% compared with the same month last year, the National Bureau of Statistics said.

The rise comes even as China's central bank has raised interest rates five times since October 2010 in a bid to control prices. "
http://www.bbc.co...14454472
Chinese central bank is doing well, too.

There is a saying, if you owe the bank $1000, the bank owns you. If you owe the bank $2 trillion, you own the bank.

Aug 14, 2011
Look what' happening in China. See what happens when people earn a little bit of wealth?
"Please respect FT.com's ts&cs and copyright policy which allow you to: share links; copy content for personal use; & redistribute limited extracts. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights or use this link to reference the article - http://www.ft.com...V3ygsjRA

Sundays mass action was one of the largest urban protests of recent years and the latest in a growing number of demonstrations against environmental disasters and degradation caused by Chinas rapid industrialisation and economic development.

Chinese authorities ordered a petrochemical factory to close on Sunday after more than 12,000 demonstrators confronted riot police, demanding the plants relocation over health fears."

Aug 14, 2011
More from China:
"Please respect FT.com's ts&cs and copyright policy which allow you to: share links; copy content for personal use; & redistribute limited extracts. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights or use this link to reference the article - http://www.ft.com...V3z3voe0

It also presented the latest challenge to a stability-obsessed government that refuses to countenance meaningful political reforms but must govern a population that is increasingly wealthy, connected via the internet, critical of poor governance and distrustful of its leaders."

Aug 14, 2011
Yes, the USA was the only major economic power left after WWII.
But it was the US Army that did not want to make the same mistake the world powers did after WWI. So they helped Germany rebuild, they helped Japan rebuild. East Germany and the Soviet block didn't benefit from such assistance. And after the Korean War, ROK was rebuilt.
Now the world has many economic powers with more liberty and prosperity in spite of the socialism in the EU and USA.
The only politician force that recognizes that what made the US great was limited govt and entrepreneurs is the tea parties.
It's great to hear a presidential candidate state he wants to make the federal govt LESS important in our lives.
How refreshing!

Aug 15, 2011
But it was the US Army that did not want to make the same mistake the world powers did after WWI. So they helped Germany rebuild, they helped Japan rebuild.
Yah dats a pleasant story but the reality is different. WW1 was ended early because armor and air power threatened to remobilize the front and no one knew the ramifications of that. Germans were kept embittered and economically stressed so the war could more easily be resumed in a gen or 2.

In the meantime German and soviet military practiced together with their new toys in the steppes and Germans got a feel for blitzkrieg in guernica.

The German people were SET UP to fight another war. Hitler gave out pretty little Xian crosses with hakenkreutze in the middle to mothers who bore cannon fodder for the Reich. Much healthy cultural destruction ensued. ONE BILLION ABORTIONS could take place as a result. The cycle of Eurasian wars caused by chronic overpopulation could finally be ended.

THIS is meaningful Victory.

Aug 15, 2011
Marjon has been making some phone calls..

"Warren Buffett has called for Congress to make him and his "mega-rich friends" pay more income tax.

In a piece in the left-leaning New York Times, the billionaire investor and philanthropist said the rich should do more to help plug the deficit.

He called for a tax rise for those earning more than $1m (£600,000), and a higher rate for those on over $10m.

In a rebuttal of arguments made by Republicans, he said tax rises would not hurt investment or jobs in the US.

He told Congress to "stop coddling the super-rich"." BBC

Aug 15, 2011
Politics and otto's conspiracy theories aside, as long as there is room for economic growth, somebody, preferably the government, has to be in debt. This is because the financial side of the economy, not the real goods, services and labor, but the money and debt, is a zero sum game. In order for somebody to have money left over in the bank after they're done spending after a given period, then somebody else has to be in debt after they're done spending after that same period. And in order for the economy to grow, somebody has to have money left over after they're done spending in the previous period, so they can increase spending in the upcoming period. Who better to carry debt so the other guy can increase spending than the government? They're immortal, so they can carry debt for a long time, and they can borrow from themselves, so they can get the best terms on the debt they hold.

Aug 15, 2011
The current U.S. GDP is close to 14 trillion per year.
A patently false number that doesn't subtract debt issuance, and doesn't compensate for extensive undercapitalization and overleverage still pervasive throughout the economy. And you know it.
assuming that the average American has 40 years of life remaining, this government bailout has saved at least 10 percent of gdp per capita for every year over those 40 years
Unbelievably bad reasoning. Firstly, the bailout bailed out bankrupt and corrupt institutions that should have been allowed to fail. Instead, they were rewarded for their malfeasance and misfeasance. Secondly, the bailout addicted the economy to the point that it now relies upon perhaps 20% of its total GDP from nothing more than federal deficit spending (i.e. from charging the collective credit card.) Third, if this kind of "savings" continues for another 40 years, at 10% per year the debt will have grown to 656 trillion.

Aug 15, 2011
rapid change as demanded by the Republicans and TeaTards is immediate economic suicide.
There is no alternative to rapid change. There is absolutely no chance that Washington could sustain multi-year and even multi-decadal discipline to gradually and continually cut expenses while increasing taxes. No freaking way in hell. And if Democrats were kept in charge, you KNOW they would continue growing spending without limit, while attempting to keep stimulating the economy through more tax cuts. Here's who the "Democrats" running the government today are, and here's how they run it and for whom:

http://www.truthd..._bubble/

Returning accounting standards back to reality, returning the economy to a rational basis, and restoring sustainability and JUSTICE is not suicide -- even if it would result in several years of extreme pain and dislocation. Continuing with things as they are, IS suicide.

Aug 15, 2011
I want specifics. Which laws were ignored, which laws were broken.


http://en.wikiped...0.932000

You want to see who the Democrats REALLY are, who they work for, and how they operate? Read this:

http://www.rollin...20100405

Aug 15, 2011
[qThere is no alternative to rapid change. There is absolutely no chance that Washington could sustain multi-year and even multi-decadal discipline to gradually and continually cut expenses while increasing taxes. No freaking way in hell. Unless there was some Mechanism in place to ensure that it was done -?

You Know - none of these theories take into account what a major calamity would do to economies in their present state. For instance what would a middle east-centered world war do to western debt? Would we need to borrow even MORE money like Britain did from the rothschilds to defeat Napoleon?

What would happen if an earthquake swarm destroyed major cities on the west coast or in Europe? Would the west be left helpless to defend itself? Or a major pandemic? Would obamacare be sufficient to prevent economic collapse?

Asteroid impact, methane volcano, supervolcano, etc. Any combination of the above. What would happen with our fragile economies? Would they benefit or implode?

Aug 15, 2011
For those fans of China:
"Beijing has chastised the U.S. for fiscal recklessness, but it may be headed for an economic collapse of its own."
"es, this looks a lot like a real-estate bubblewith Chinese characteristics. As for debt problems, Chinese bank loans were 97 percent of GDP in 2008. Now theyre at 120 percent."
http://www.thedai...ems.html
Central national banks will save the world!
[q}Who better to carry debt so the other guy can increase spending than the government?
Someone who wants his money back with interest for the risk of the loan. A govt doesn't care if it gets paid back because they can force the risk onto others.

Aug 15, 2011
Asteroid impact, methane volcano, supervolcano, etc. Any combination of the above. What would happen with our fragile economies?

Mormons save resources for such events. That's what wise people do, be prepared.

Aug 15, 2011
Who better to carry debt so the other guy can increase spending than the government?

Someone who wants his money back with interest for the risk of the loan. A govt doesn't care if it gets paid back because they can force the risk onto others.

Wtf? That doesn't even make any sense marjon. People who loan money to the government by buying bonds are assured of getting that money back, plus the stated interest on the face of the note. It's the surest bet there is, which is why the return often doesn't outpace inflation by much if at all. And the reason the government can always pay any mature bond no matter how many there are or how much they're worth is because it can borrow from itself to do so, which allows it to set the terms of the bonds it issues.

As opposed to a private household, business or individual borrowing, who might go broke before they can pay off their loan, meaning it will effectively never get paid back.

Aug 15, 2011
are assured of getting that money back, plus the stated interest on the face of the note.

Until the govt can't take anymore wealth from its victims and if it tries to print its way out, the money won't buy anything.
Govt does not create wealth. It can only take it from those who do.

But why should any govt bother to repay any debt? Why not just nationalize it?
And if it can just print money, why should it need to borrow any money in the first place?
it can borrow from itself to do so, which allows it to set the terms of the bonds it issues.

What if no one but the govt is willing to buy its bonds?

Aug 16, 2011
If no one is buying it's bonds, it's because they've got better things to buy, so the government better not be spending in that economy any more than it is taking in through taxes or they'll be competing with private spending, causing inflation. But that's clearly not the case, as $950 billion worth of them were bought on average every day just last month, and that excludes securities with a maturity of less than 1 year.

If private institutions are buying government securities with their low yields, it's because they don't have anything better to spend their money on. With 9% unemployment, failing schools, failing roads and bridges and a failing middle class lifestyle, the government ought to be borrowing that money at the low rates it pays and spending it to address those problems.

Aug 16, 2011
VD
I want specifics. Which laws were ignored, which laws were broken.


PE
http://en.wikiped...0.932000


VD
A reference that doesn't show that any laws were broken.
I don't see laws being broken in the Clinton Admin on the timeline either. I do see once case where someone wanted more regulation and resigned when her investigation was shut down.

May: Brooksley Born at the Commodity Futures Trading Commission wants to investigate over the Counter derivatives like credit default swaps; their lack of transparency, lack of regulation, and possible systemic risk. Alan Greenspan, Robert Rubin, and Arthur Levitt of Clinton's Working Group on Financial Markets, and Larry Summers shut her down. She resigns soon after.
While I think this was bad decision it wasn't against the law.>>

Aug 16, 2011
Why ever did you post that link in reply to VD's question? You claimed laws ignored and broken and you posted something did not in any way support the claim.

And the other link does mention Bill Clinton but mostly it is about Goldman-Sachs and Republican behavior.

That was a strange post from. It was like you were channeling Marjon. Please do not go that way.

Ethelred

Aug 16, 2011
Save during the good times, deficit spend during the bad ones.

Socialists don't SAVE during the good times. They SPEND more because they must TAKE everything from their serfs.
Mormons work, earn wealth, and then save that wealth in various ways.
Govt only takes the wealth others earn.
If private institutions are buying government securities with their low yields, it's because they don't have anything better to spend their money on.

And this is a good thing? A govt promoting economic growth and prosperity would not think this a good thing.

Aug 16, 2011
Perhaps you should re-read my post Vendi. That $950 billion dollars per day trading volume was in securities with a longer maturity than one year. I don't believe there is any requirement that any institution is required to hold any amount of long-term securities. That so many of them are being bought indicates that private institutions and households are preferring to lend their money to the government, even with that low return, than preferring to lend it to someone else for better returns, or spend it on stocks of futures.

And the fractional reserve system does not operationally hinder banks from making loans. If a bank lacks the necessary reserves to back a loan they've already decided to make, they can borrow those reserves from other banks, or in the last case, from the Federal Reserve. It is the creditworthiness of borrowers that limits lending, not the reserve position of banks.

Aug 16, 2011

If private institutions are buying government securities with their low yields, it's because they don't have anything better to spend their money on.

And this is a good thing? A govt promoting economic growth and prosperity would not think this a good thing.

It's neither good nor bad, it's what free individuals choose to do with their money. There are literally untold numbers of reasons a person would rather not spend their money and instead buys government bonds. Would you rather deprive those individuals of that choice?

Aug 16, 2011
Would you rather deprive those individuals of that choice?

The govt is depriving people of their money by having to use confiscated wealth, AKA taxes, to pay the interest on the bonds.
Why not let the people keep more of their wealth as they know better than the govt as to how to make more.
And if there were not govt bonds, which have an unfair market advantage as govts have the power to take wealth to pay them back, investors would seek alternatives in the market place.

Aug 16, 2011
You keep drinking that TeaTard cool aid little boy. Demand that Economic Depression. You deserve every part of it.
You know, if it were only "TeaTard" Republicans insisting on flushing themselves down the toilet at this point, I couldn't care less. Thing is, if the 100 story American economic edifice, with its cracked masonry, overstressed load bearing walls and looted I-beams, comes crumbling down, it won't just take TeaPublicans with it. And its neighbors across the street will probably also be crushed under the debris no matter how responsibly they've been running their own house.

That isn't a pleasant prospect and once there it won't matter much anymore who's fault it was. Unless we're cutting heads off at that point.

I agree with your overall assessment, VD, but PE does point out some important problems, not the least of which is the US's 2yr campaign cycle which makes it very easy to just punt big long terms problems like this down the road.

Aug 16, 2011
That isn't a pleasant prospect and once there it won't matter much anymore who's fault it was. Unless we're cutting heads off at that point.

It does matter who is at fault to prevent the same thing from happening again.
That's what the corrupt union/govt construction industry wants, crisis. The govt will have to throw money at them to fix everything. Then the unions will recycle that into political campaign coffers.
Better to limit the power of the govt which limits its corruptibility.

Aug 16, 2011
It does matter who is at fault to prevent the same thing from happening again.
No. The specific "who" makes no real difference, it's the what, how and why that does.

Aug 16, 2011
20 million here http://www.komone...048.html
58 million here
http://www.thebla...o-china/

You got to love government green job scam.

Aug 16, 2011
As a result, you will either have to endure their continued economic treason, or make an example of a few thousand of them through public hangings.

All you need are a few trees. I will provide all the rope you need.
Careful VD, don't get all warm and fuzzy on us!

Anyway, you appear to be mistaking me for an American. Just want to clear that up...just in case.

Aug 16, 2011
"If the federal government's regulatory operation were a business, it would be one of the 50 biggest in the country in terms of revenues, and the third largest in terms of employees, with more people working for it than McDonald's, Ford, Disney and Boeing combined.

Under President Obama, while the economy is struggling to grow and create jobs, the federal regulatory business is booming.

Regulatory agencies have seen their combined budgets grow a healthy 16% since 2008, topping $54 billion, according to the annual "Regulator's Budget," compiled by George Washington University and Washington University in St. Louis.

That's at a time when the overall economy grew a paltry 5%.

Meanwhile, employment at these agencies has climbed 13% since Obama took office to more than 281,000, while private-sector jobs shrank by 5.6%."
http://www.invest...g-Up.htm
Why don't the scientists complain about this?

Aug 16, 2011
VD is a Progressive lunatic who espouses killing those that disagree with him. Has anyone who claims to be conservative on this board espoused killing another person?
If you are a progressive, do you agree with VD's feelings?

Aug 16, 2011
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

By this definition, in the Constitution, the socialist Federal govt has committed treason by levying war against the states.

Aug 16, 2011
"VD is a Progressive lunatic who espouses killing those that disagree with him." - FreeTard

The crime of Treason exists for a reason. The ultimate punishment is death. Republicans/Libertarians/Randites have actively been engaged in acts of treason against the state.

The conclusions to be drawn are self evident, and will become obvious in the very near future when retribution against the traitors begins.


Lets start the countdown to Vendickarian's expulsion from yet another forum:
http://forums.reg.../18858/3


Aug 16, 2011
VD is a socialist sympathizer, just like the editors.
He won't be banned.

Aug 17, 2011
Lets not get VD banned, he expresses plainly what progressives believes. If the other progressives (or liberals)on this board don't say a word or rates this lunatic progressive comments a 5, don't they show the progressive movement for what it is? Don't they too show that they agree with him in principle?

Aug 17, 2011
Lets not get VD banned, he expresses plainly what progressives believes.
Suuure. Just as you and Marj are supposed to be typical "conservatives". [Rolls eyes. Yawns.]

AFAIC, scoring posts are about the ideas in those posts--and how post from one author hang together from one to the other. Can't speak for anyone else, but I don't automatically rate post a certain way because they come from a particular person. Even Marj gets an occasional 4 or 5 from me, when he makes a sound point. Then again, he's actually evidently quite a bit smarter than you are.

Of course, I sure wish he'd answer VD's two questions....

Aug 17, 2011
For the record, I do agree that calling for anyone's execution for political reasons is completely over the top and irresponsible. It's on par with 3rd world tin pot dictator thinking, and I think VD only contributes to discrediting himself (including an otherwise largely correct economic analysis) by throwing out such statements.

Aug 17, 2011
Don't they too show that they agree with him in principle?
Considering the stuff you give ones to that is pretty rich. However I only give his good stuff 5's not the over the top crap that is difficult to distinguish, behaviorally,from your or especially Marjons crap. Both of you lie frequently, engage in ludicrous claims that progressive = communist and are irrational much of the rest of the time.

For instance both you and The Somali Pirate Captain are found telling the lie that taxes = theft. If either of you don't feel like paying the bill for a being an American you both move to Somalia anytime. It will improve the country.

Note that I do not recommend calling you and the Pirate traitors. Well not both of you anyway. Marjon posts here when he is supposed to be working for the people that voted him into office not knowing just what he really thinks. I think that is betraying their trust at the very least though it doesn't fit the definition of treason.

Ethelred

Aug 17, 2011
Interesting that Ethelred wants two conservatives to move to Somalia, yet doesnt condemn VD calling for the execution of conservatives.

Aug 17, 2011
If either of you don't feel like paying the bill for a being an American

The correct response is to support politicians who want to reduce the size, scope and power of the govt.
That's what I and a few others advocate here and elsewhere.
If Ethel and VD and others here LIKE bending over and grabbing your ankles for the federal govt, I am sure YOU could find other govts around the world that will accommodate.

Aug 17, 2011
Interesting that Ethelred wants two conservatives to move to Somalia,/q]I never said any such a thing.

I only said that you should move there if you don't want to pay the bill for living in America or any other country that has taxes. Taxes are part of living in decent country. Calling taxes theft is a lie. Vote against taxes with your feet. Somalia has no taxes as it has no government in any real sense. Thus it is ideal for all those Ann Rand fans. Also you and Marjon are not Conservatives. You are radicals and that is not conservative.

Interesting that antithinker doesn't understand that the Somalia has exactly the kind of government and economic system that he and Marjon are demanding.

Now unlike Marjon you have not supported Somali piracy so I have not suggested that you become a pirate.

Since it is now clear that you think Somalia is dangerous perhaps it is time reconsider your idiotic ideas on government.

It would also be nice if you would stop lying.

Ethelred