Unearthed tools rewrite saga of human migration

Jul 07, 2010 by Marlowe Hood
Palaeontologist Simon Parfitt shows a newly discovered fossil of hyena droppings found in a United Kingdom river deposit, during a press conference to reveal the findings at the Royal Institution in London, Wednesday, July 7, 2010. The finds, revealed in this week's Nature magazine, indicate that early humans were living in northern Europe more than 780,000 years ago and tell us more about the dispersal of early humans out of Africa and will likely prompt a re-evaluation of the adaptations and capabilities of early humans. (AP Photo/Sang Tan)

Early humans migrating out of Africa adapted to freezing climes more than 800,000 years ago, far sooner than previously thought possible, according to a landmark study released Wednesday.

A trove of flint tools found near Happisburgh in the eastern English county of Norfolk marks Homo sapiens' earliest known settlement in a location where winter temperatures fell below zero degrees Celsius (32 degrees Fahrenheit).

The discovery implies our ancestors some 26,000 generations ago survived climates like those of southern Sweden today, perhaps without the comforting benefit of fire or clothes, the study says.

Until now, almost every archeological site testifying to habitation across Eurasia during the Early Pleistocene period, 1.8 million to 780,000 years ago, has been below the 45th parallel, suggesting a natural temperature barrier to further northward expansion.

All these sites were either tropical, savannah or Mediterranean in character.

The climate boundary cut across southern France and northern Italy, Romania, southern Kazakhstan and Mongolia, as well as northeastern China and the northern tip of Hokkaido Island in Japan.

The only known exception -- a site at Pakefield in Suffolk, southern England -- was occupied by humans during a balmy interlude.

But the new research, led by Nick Ashton of the British Museum, has thrown down a challenge to the 45th-parallel rule.

It has shown for the first time that our hardy forebears, armed with a few or weapons, could survive in a challenging, frigid environment.

"The new flint artefacts are incredibly important," said Ashton.

"Not only are they much earlier than other finds, but they are associated with a unique array of environmental data that gives a clear picture of the vegetation and climate."

Piecing that information together required several strains of complex detective work.

To date the tools, the researchers examined the magnetic data locked in different layers and types of sediment, comparing them to known changes in the direction and intensity of Earth's magnetic fields.

The materials, however, did not lend themselves easily to such analysis, both because of the lack of magnetic minerals, and because of "noise" created by the presence of an iron-rich rock called greigite.

Ashton and colleagues also used a technique called biostratigraphy, which analyses the remnant traces of plants and animals.

By cross-referencing species known to be already extinct or not yet present, they succeeded in narrowing down the timeframe.

Together, the magnetic and biological evidence "indicate a date toward the end of the Early Pleistocene," concludes the study, published in the British journal Nature.

Reconstructing the climate and environment -- near an estuary of the River Thames, which has since changed course -- also called for identifying long-dead flora and fauna, including several types of pollen, seeds, pinecones, barnacles and beetles.

Summers probably averaged 16 to 18 C (61 to 64 F), and winters a frosty zero to - 3.0 C (32 to 26 F).

During the harsh winters, the area's two-legged predators almost certainly relied on hunting animals, as edible plants would have been in very short supply, the study says.

Still, they would have also benefited from the warming impact of the ocean, as well as species-rich freshwater pools, salt marshes and a large tidal flood plain with a large range of grass-eating creatures and their predators.

Further excavation is already under way to resolve other mysteries.

"It remains unclear whether expansion into northern latitudes with lower winder temperatures required human physical adaptation, seasonal migration or developments in technology such as hunting, clothes, the use of shelters or control of fire," the researchers said.

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sstritt
4.4 / 5 (7) Jul 07, 2010
Zero degrees C is NOT minus 32 F! Who proof reads these stories?
Caliban
4 / 5 (4) Jul 07, 2010
If the dating is accurate, then this puts modern humans in europe 10x earlier than is generally believed. And present in an environment thought to be impossible of sustaining human population.

This makes it difficult to sustain the accepted model of human migration and population of the world, and especially the accepted model of the populating of the New World.

Suddenly, anomalous settlement sites that are 100,000 years old in South America don't seem so anomalous. Nor do "anomalous" evidence for urban civilizations that predate Sumer and Egypt.

We seem to be getting closer and closer to definitive proof that we are not the first iteration of H. Civilitatis.
otto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jul 07, 2010
Caliban-
Ever see this mag at barnes and noble?
http://www.ancien...can.com/
-They sometimes print interesting things-
Caliban
1 / 5 (1) Jul 07, 2010
Otto-
Thanks. I was not familiar with it- but have, instead, been getting info piecemeal over the years or from the occasional book on the subject. I will keep an eye open for it in future- I can see that they will publish items of interest.
frajo
3 / 5 (2) Jul 08, 2010
Ever see this mag at barnes and noble?
http://www.ancien...can.com/
-They sometimes print interesting things-
From that site:
suppressed factual evidence demonstrating the lasting impact made on the Americas by Scandinavian Norsemen, Pharaonic Egyptians, Bronze Age Mediterraneans, Semitic Phoenicians, West Africans, Dynastic Chinese, seafaring Polynesians, and many other culture- bearers.
Not really interesting.
In sharp contrast to majority academic opinion, its editorial position stands firmly on behalf of evidence for the arrival of overseas visitors to the Americas hundreds and even thousands of years before Columbus
This means they don't care whatever scientists with differing views have to say. Is there a better operational definition for "sect"?
yyz
4 / 5 (3) Jul 08, 2010
"Ever see this mag at barnes and noble?
http://www.ancien...can.com/
-They sometimes print interesting things- "

Why would I want to consult this magazine for science info? Among the 'interesting' statements frajo quotes from the site is this gem:

"....our staff and contributing reporters believe they are writing a New History of our nation by convincingly offering research that, in the coming century, will amount to virtually a total revision of American antiquity."

and

"Ancient American, although authoritatively written, is not a scholarly journal. It is a popular science publication specifically aimed at attracting the broadest possible general readership, while refusing to compromise its scientific credibility."

Looks like their scientific credibility is compromised from the git go.
Skeptic_Heretic
4 / 5 (2) Jul 08, 2010
I'm of mind that anomalous sites with earlier dates are a mix of poor study and in some cases actual pre-civilization. Over the past several hundred thousand years there have been many events that would be deleterious to hunter gatherer civilizatioons, in some cases to the point of extinction of large swathes of homo-similiar organisms. I don't doubt that human history is older than we recognize, but I highly doubt anything similar to a global society/Atlantis high civilization/etc ever really existed outside of chronological relativism. IE: the Minoans looked like a super race to other's due to their proficient sailing techniques and trade technology. An urban, or proto-urban society is not out of the running though and I'd be more surprised if we determined that our current understanding of human migration was primarily accurate and complete.
Caliban
3.7 / 5 (3) Jul 08, 2010
Allright.

For any of you here that think the model for the populating of the Americas is correct- or even close to it- please have a look at this:

http://en.wikiped...al_site)

this one site, alone, is enough to stand the model on its head.

A further brief web search will yield PLENTY more well-dated and thoroughly authenticated archaelogical sites the whole world over that are anomalously ancient for the region in which they are found. This is more true for settlement sites, but there are large proto-urban or urban sites as well.

As I have said before- they represent a possibility that runs entirely counter to the accepted, let's say, "Flat Earth" model, and can only be reconciled if the accepted model is entirely overhauled. What will provide the energy to overturn the academic inertia?

The current model represents many decades of earnest, career-long effort on the part of thousands of scientists. You can appreciate the dilemma.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Jul 08, 2010
Caliban, big problems with that article, and with the site in general.

1) You can't perform radiocarbon dating back to 50k years as the article suggests. This is possibly just a mistake for another form of radiological dating so it isn't crippling to the Topper site.

2) It is a wholly unique site at that date range in the Americas. There are zero other sites even close to that range, lending further creedence to a potential misdating of the rock compounds in the area.

3) Lack of control. The Topper site had been visited by several local yokels prior to any formal archaeological research, allowing for potential contamination.

I don't doubt preclovis humans. I do doubt the 50k year figure.
otto1923
3 / 5 (3) Jul 08, 2010
This means they don't care whatever scientists with differing views have to say. Is there a better operational definition for "sect"?

Looks like their scientific credibility is compromised from the git go.

Unwarranted preconceptions from uninformed posers who will always fail to accept that good, sound knowledge might be found in the midst of crap.

Otto looks everywhere for knowledge and knows how to pick good from bad. Others only look for the Official Academic Stamp of Approval and miss SO MUCH, and get duped anyway because theyve forgotten how to think for themselves.

Approval stamps are issued by politicians who want to lead people by the nose, like those who gave you Piltdown man to prove your ancestors came from europe, the good continent full of superior people with Manifest Destiny. The politicians who told you the poor aztecs and incas were peaceful, artistic people to make you feel guilty you killed them all off.
otto1923
4 / 5 (2) Jul 08, 2010
-And with his above commentary you all can see that Otto was only responding in kind to aggression, not initiating it; as usual. An unaggressive reply would go like "Well, otto, we've visited your site and it doesnt seem like it has much science to offer. Why then, dear otto, did you post it and what do you think we have to gain from it?"

To which otto would reply, "Yes, i know it appears to be rather spurious, and they often do publish a lot of nonsense, but as otto says there are sometimes good things to be found there. And even studying nonsense is a good way of learning to recognize it when you see it being issued from your Official Academic Politician types.

Piltdown man was suspected and denounced for decades for the obvious crude fake that it was, but Official Academic Politicians wouldnt let it go until they all died (and Utility of it had passed) which is sadly but understandably typical.
otto1923
3 / 5 (2) Jul 08, 2010
From Calibans site:

"Until the recent challenges to the Clovis theory, it was unusual for archaeologists to dig deeper than the layer of the Clovis culture, on the grounds that no human artifacts would be found older than Clovis."

-Doesnt this seem rather bizarre to you? Wouldnt scientists WANT to dig deeper in order to confirm that they had uncovered the earliest evidence? In the spirit of how hard scientists are re-measuring the proton or re-confirming einsteins work for instance?
Caliban
3 / 5 (3) Jul 08, 2010
Otto,
My point, exactly. Paradigm shift often requires nearly cataclysmic upheaval and overturn, since it goes against the built-up inertia of "convention"

Skeptic,
I understand your point(s), but specifically with reference to methodology versus possible contamination- the site exhibits well-defined and undisturbed stratigraphy below the clovis horizon.
Also to be considered is that the Eastern US wasn't even supposed to have been settled at that point in time. Plus the fact that this is an inter-linked set of sites.

All else being equal, this guy is well-respected, and has absolutely nothing to gain by going against the status quo here, except for the contempt and derision of his peers. No- this evidence is solid- in fact, far more solid than many sites, which just get shoe-horned into the current model, if they are even close- based on the assumed dating margin of error.

You are a reasonable person- I urge you to reconsider your views on this. Search "Topper Site".
Caliban
3 / 5 (3) Jul 08, 2010
And as far as "Ancient America" is concerned: do these people not, in a forthright and upfront manner, state that they are a journal devoted to the consideration of alternative, out-of-the-mainstream, unpublished research and speculation regarding the populating of the New World- by both Academics and Laymen? How, then, is this deceitful or spurious? They make it explicit that they are concerned with an alternative model.

Was Bohr, then, being deceitful or spurious or in some other way irrelevant by proposing the nuclear model of the atom, when everyone thought it was a damned Plum Pudding!?!
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (3) Jul 08, 2010
You are a reasonable person- I urge you to reconsider your views on this. Search "Topper Site".
Oh I have, many times, and I've read a great many things on the Topper site. I think the Topper site is a wild exageration as I think stating that preclovis humans or that the eastern seaboard wasn't populated pre-clovis is also wildly inaccurate.

Topper is certainly older than established sites and is anomalous to the current ideology, I don't deny that. A populated North America 50,000 years ago is not out of the question. A populated and structurally protocivilized North America is almost entirely mad.
Caliban
3.7 / 5 (3) Jul 08, 2010
A populated and structurally protocivilized North America is almost entirely mad.


I agree - that would be stretching it a good bit, even though we must admit that no-one was expecting Kahokia, either, and that it would have been supremely difficult to reconstruct the Iroquois League from archaeological evidence alone.

But I also agree with the Bard about there being many more things in heaven and earth "than your philosophy can conceive."

Therefore the necessity of not only an open mind, but, also -open eyes.

Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (3) Jul 09, 2010
But I also agree with the Bard about there being many more things in heaven and earth "than your philosophy can conceive."

Therefore the necessity of not only an open mind, but, also -open eyes.

If you like that quote, you should also remember this one.

Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.
Caliban
3 / 5 (2) Jul 09, 2010

Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.


That reminds me of "Bad Taste" an early Peter Jackson film. Worth a look, if you get the chance.
otto1923
5 / 5 (2) Jul 09, 2010
It reminds me... of THIS:
http://www.youtub...be_gdata
Caliban
1 / 5 (1) Jul 09, 2010
Red hot devil girls suddenly transformed into moon maidens! Sweet! But where's the brains falling out of heads?
otto1923
5 / 5 (2) Jul 09, 2010
The bald guitarist with his head bobbing up and down... I just imagined his brains dropping onto the floor. Outtake.
Caliban
1 / 5 (1) Jul 09, 2010
hahaha!

However- this just in, gentlemen:

http://www.eutime...uropean/

King Tut a scion of the Ancient Pelopsian Sea Kings, aka the Celts?

This time, at least, my brains didn't burst out my head. My eyes almost did, though!!!!
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Jul 09, 2010
hahaha!

However- this just in, gentlemen:

http://www.eutime...uropean/

King Tut a scion of the Ancient Pelopsian Sea Kings, aka the Celts?

This time, at least, my brains didn't burst out my head. My eyes almost did, though!!!!

I'm at a total loss for words. It matches what I've suspected for a while. Thank you Caliban, and thank you for being an ignoramus Zahi Hawass. I can only hope this is further verified. The problem here is, the EU times is kinda run by white supremacists.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Jul 09, 2010
Ok,

I'm going to state that my post above was premature.

http://rationalwi...on_Times

EU times is not a new agency. I went through a few more of their articles and found this listing for them elsewhere. I still think Zahi is a douchebag and hiding something, but I can't credit the above story.
Caliban
1 / 5 (1) Jul 09, 2010
Yeah, I'll have to agree with you, at least for now, pending further, authoritative, analysis. Maybe a few brainy bits did slip over the scuppers, afterall.
Just the same, I'm not quite prepared to completely dismiss the veracity of the article.
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet Jul 10, 2010
I did a little more digging on this and talked with a friend in the field. According to him from the brief piece of information found within the video clip, Tut shows 3 primary haplogroups, all of which are fairly closely related. Western European clocks in at a measley 22% match. Eastern European clocks in at 38%. But the Proto Berbers from North Africa match most closely at 50%. E3B1 is the group and they were a mix of sub saharan africa and european migrants.

This makes the most sense to me and also explains why Hawass wouldn't come right out with it. Hawass has stated vehemently that no Pharaoh was from Africa. Well, the DNA states otherwise and most closely matches the Haplogroup of Northern Africans, and not so much the Egyptian peoples. In effect it's a massive amount of egg on an Egyptian racist's face.
zbarlici
not rated yet Jul 10, 2010
dude shouldn`t be touching that.. :)
Caliban
1 / 5 (1) Jul 10, 2010
Skeptic,
Were your knowledgeable people able to get enough info from the videoclip to make an authoritative determination, or is this based on partial info?
pubwvj
5 / 5 (1) Jul 10, 2010
"Summers probably averaged 16 to 18 C (61 to 64 F), and winters a frosty zero to - 3.0 C (32 to 26 F)."

These temperatures are not very low. That is about the same as we experience here in the mountains of northern Vermont. Very survivable, even without modern technology.
droom
5 / 5 (1) Jul 10, 2010
Great comments, kept it very civil and provided some solid information. Keep it up :D
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Jul 11, 2010
Skeptic,
Were your knowledgeable people able to get enough info from the videoclip to make an authoritative determination, or is this based on partial info?

I was told it was pretty explicit. If it wasn't jsut staged for the show it's just about exactly what the print out would look like for review.
Caliban
1 / 5 (1) Jul 11, 2010

I was told it was pretty explicit. If it wasn't jsut staged for the show it's just about exactly what the print out would look like for review.


Well, then. I suppose my pet theory, yours, and that racist Hawass's are thereby shot to hell, then.
More or less, anyway. At least until or unless finer resolution of genetic inheritance distribution can be achieved.

Until then, I suppose the idea that we could be linear descendents of the Pharaohs is done for. The Sea Kings are still in the running, however.
getgoa
1 / 5 (4) Jul 11, 2010
The bible already says this in Ecclesiastes:

Ecclesiastes 1:10 found 6
Nothing under the sun is new, neither is any man able to say: Behold this is new: for it hath already gone before in the ages that were before us.

why do poeple keep questioning the bible when it has not been wrong yet about anything--These are not mysteries they are already told truths.(drbo.org)
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (3) Jul 11, 2010
why do poeple keep questioning the bible when it has not been wrong yet about anything
So bats are birds and pi is an exactly rounded 3?

The Bible is full of bullshit.
getgoa
1 / 5 (4) Jul 11, 2010
I did not write the bible but the poeple who did are not wrong--- many are jsut stealing or copyrighting the biblical truths.

Example:
-Study links propensity toward worry to early death is a direct rip-off of the biblical verse written by Jesus of Sirach in 200 B.C. p.713 drbo.org.
The saying is found here:
Ecclesiasticus 30:26
Envy and anger shorten a man's days, and pensiveness will bring old age before the time.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Jul 11, 2010
I did not write the bible but the poeple who did are not wrong--- many are jsut stealing or copyrighting the biblical truths.

The Bible was written by a group of people who had little observational knowledge of the world outside of the Judaen desert. To them, bats appeared to be birds simply because they flew like birds. pi was 3 because they were not skilled in mathematics. All of their comparisons to stars and sand are in existence because it is the only way to produce a statement of uncountable abundance if you don't know of prairies and endless fields of grass or molecules of water or that the galaxy is enormous and doesn't rotate around the Earth, etc.

It makes observational statements about men and things found in the region only.

Would an all knowing God refrain from speaking about any other part of the world simply because the person he's speaking to is from a single part of the world and not well traveled? Relativism disproves Biblical veracity.
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet Jul 11, 2010
Caliban, It doesn't shoot mine to hell. Primarily I look at the egyptians as a second civilization. I think we became an urban creature within the region that is now the mediterranean sea. If that area was primarily arable land and the glacial flooding washed over the area it would explain many of the "myths" of light skinned migrants bringing higher technology to cultures. Not western europeans but the Indus valley "aryan" peoples. IE: Northern African/Southern European peoples who show common haplogroups far further back than is expected by the out of africa/egypt model.
getgoa
1 / 5 (4) Jul 11, 2010
observations are all in light--there is no difference in light from one area to the next is a biblical observation, the 10 commandments is light that will not fade. Deutoronomy are conseqences of stars/light for trying to make relative the light rather than observing this light that the bible calls the ten commandments. Like I have previously said I did not write the bible and the light involved in the bible is right-- you don't eat pi nor bats.
Copernicus defies this by defining a concept that envelops all living things, but no human can understand at every moment why from such a distance light can still be seen as if it is in your own hand or that we know the world rotates but none of us feel a thing? It can be simply explained but no one understands the light behind the simple math. Between thought and reality exists a book called the bible.
Caliban
1 / 5 (1) Jul 11, 2010
Not western europeans but the Indus valley "aryan" peoples. IE: Northern African/Southern European peoples who show common haplogroups far further back than is expected by the out of africa/egypt model.


I'm not sure i follow you here.

My best bet is that civilization arose, and to quite an extent of development, along the extended coasts of the continents during the last ice age. That's where the greatest abundance of food and ease of transportation would have existed. Only after the flooding of the Mediterranean basin would these same conditions have begun to prevail in contigous areas- N Africa, S Europe, the Near East.

My theory, anyway.
otto1923
3 / 5 (2) Jul 11, 2010
So bats are birds and pi is an exactly rounded 3?
And rabbits have cuds.
Well, then. I suppose my pet theory, yours, and that racist Hawass's are thereby shot to hell, then
But then... Anybody ever read the Book of Enoch? Important for Freemasons and others. It talks about the nephilim, and dividing the people up and setting them against one another, etc. 

Enoch is the grandfather of Noah and the supposed Founder of a Priesthood charged with preserving the accumulated Knowledge of mankind. The book features a journey by Enoch to heaven, in which he describes a structure with shining walls which some have taken to be the ancient observatory at newgrange. Some have said Thoth is the original Enoch. 

Try wiki for enoch and newgrange. This euro connection would add some credence to a euro priesthood which spread civilization around the world. 
Caliban
2.3 / 5 (3) Jul 12, 2010
Otto-
I'm familiar with the story of Enoch by hearsay- have not yet gotten to read for myself.

What strikes me is the virtually universal myth of a flood, a golden age, the frequent presence/interactions between gods and humans, and, of course, the Light Bringers", "Seedbearers" and others of similar description who brough the knowledge to (re)build civilisation/society after the flood.
I'm not so sure about euro, specifically, but it does seem pretty clear that these mangods/priests seem to have radiated from somewhere on the western/central verge of Europe/Africa.
It's pretty much incontrovertible fact that there was urban culture prior to the end of the last ice age, just from the submerged megalithic ruins dotted here and there along the continental coastlines(A minimum of 9kybp), and various inland sites. But it will be a while still before this is ever part of the accepted model.
One thing is certain- we've only scratched the surface of the true antiquity of Civilization.
frajo
1 / 5 (1) Jul 12, 2010
From Calibans site:
"Until the recent challenges to the Clovis theory, it was unusual for archaeologists to dig deeper than the layer of the Clovis culture, on the grounds that no human artifacts would be found older than Clovis."
-Doesnt this seem rather bizarre to you? Wouldnt scientists WANT to dig deeper
Did you dig deeper? Did you ask yourself (or anybody else) whether that site has credibility?
Obviously you didn't. You believe what you want to believe and don't care about any objections.
Does this seem rather bizarre to me? No, unfortunately not.
Caliban
1 / 5 (1) Jul 12, 2010
frajo,

Well then- exactly how far did you dig? There is actually quite a bit of reporting on Topper, and it converges on the single salient fact(among others) that it makes plain that humans have been in N America for considerably longer than thought.

You can argue with that if you want, but I can't imagine why you would want to. Does this knowledge threaten you in some way?
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Jul 12, 2010
observations are all in light--there is no difference in light from one area to the next is a biblical observation
No, this is a common sense observation for an organism that can only percieve visible light. Everywhere where light is "different" we can't see it.
Like I have previously said I did not write the bible and the light involved in the bible is right-- you don't eat pi nor bats.
I eat pie quite often. I've also eaten bat, no ill effects, no lightning from the heavens striking me down.
Copernicus defies this by defining a concept that envelops all living things, but no human can understand at every moment why from such a distance light can still be seen as if it is in your own hand or that we know the world rotates but none of us feel a thing?
Actually all of it is well explained. Youp might want to know something of science if you're going to post idiocy on a science forum.
getgoa
1 / 5 (3) Jul 12, 2010
it just keeps proving the first statement that in Ecclesiastes nothing is new under the sun--meaning if you "read" the bible and do decide to keep digging the commandments are a lamp not a stumblingblock to science, the speed of light in science is directly translated from the bible, so are all the planets, and how to correctly read the host of heaven/ how to define distance correctly to make better predictions/observations.

When science decides to go into God's providence of light (10 commandments) there is no science only consequences-- proofs have to be set up in order to get the best result and make sure the distances as said in the bible are acknowledged.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Jul 12, 2010
the speed of light in science is directly translated from the bible,
No it's not.
so are all the planets,
No they're not.
and how to correctly read the host of heaven
What?
how to define distance correctly to make better predictions/observations.
No it's not.

If the Bible contained the knowledge of modern science why did we wait 2000 years to use it? Biblical literalism is ridiculous. I've said before I have no problem with Christianity. I do take issue with large swathes of Christianity's adherants due to dogmatic biblical literalism.
CarolinaScotsman
5 / 5 (3) Jul 12, 2010
To get back to the actual article, the researchers believe the humans present at that time were Homo Antecessor, not modern humans. For a more detailed look at this discovery you can check the following video and two articles:
Video
http://www.guardi...-britons

Articles
http://www.guardi...ne-tools

and

http://www.scienc...exposure
otto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jul 12, 2010
From Calibans site:
"Until the recent challenges to the Clovis theory, it was unusual for archaeologists to dig deeper than the layer of the Clovis culture, on the grounds that no human artifacts would be found older than Clovis."
-Doesnt this seem rather bizarre to you? Wouldnt scientists WANT to dig deeper
Did you dig deeper? Did you ask yourself (or anybody else) whether that site has credibility?
Obviously you didn't.
Sure I did. I always do. I found the statement bizarre and commented on it here in the hope that someone here would enlighten me. You did not.
You believe what you want to believe and don't care about any objections.
Does this seem rather bizarre to me? No, unfortunately not.
You believe this about otto while discounting much evidence to the contrary, because your conclusions differ from otto's.

I say otto considers a greater range of ideas as well as alternatives as to how to interpret them, and that frajo does not.
otto1923
not rated yet Jul 12, 2010
From another thread:
"However, in the public perception, hydrogen bombs, or H-bombs, are multi-megaton devices a thousand times more powerful than Hiroshima's Little Boy. Such high-yield bombs are actually two-stage thermonuclears, scaled up to the desired yield, with uranium fission, as usual, providing most of their energy."
http://en.wikiped...ear_bomb

-Huh. I did not know this.
Here is otto admitting his ignorance and still getting one'd for it, one of thousands of examples I bet. No matter. Ottos conclusions stand
1. Because they make more sense than current explanations and
2. Because nobody has yet proven otto wrong in his beliefs.
Yellowdart
3 / 5 (2) Jul 12, 2010
And rabbits have cuds.


Rabbits practice refection, which is chewing partially digested food. The hebrew does not qualify regurgitation, nor is it bound by poor translation in english. You should find better passages to pick on.

bats are birds and pi is an exactly rounded 3?


Hebrew associates commonality of wings, not Linnean classification.

and no it doesnt use pi=3

http://www.purple...eval.htm

What it does say is that the world is round, that there are pathways in the sea, that the heavens/universe was expanded, long before modern science.

otto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jul 12, 2010

Rabbits practice refection, which is chewing partially digested food. The hebrew does not qualify regurgitation, nor is it bound by poor translation in english. You should find better passages to pick on.

Lev. 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. (See also Deut. 14:7)
-I think you are splitting hares here. It is much more reasonable that the people who wrote the bible simply did not know the difference, than that 'god' would make a crude and unqualified comparison. This makes more sense in the context of the other clumsy mistakes which can be found in the bible. Like the difference between parting a respectable Sea and draining a reedy marsh.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (3) Jul 12, 2010
Hebrew associates commonality of wings, not Linnean classification.
And then why are flying insects not considered birds?
and no it doesnt use pi=3
http://www.purple...eval.htm
Forcing the text to fit your own notions eh? Watch the dubious substitution of terms in the phrase and the fact he has omitted the rest of the description within the passage.
What it does say is that the world is round, that there are pathways in the sea, that the heavens/universe was expanded, long before modern science.
The Bible says nothing of the shape of the Earth nor does it give any form of inference into the Universe. Please just stop. The Bible is limited because the people who wrote it were limited. There have been multiple retranslations adding in knowledge of the day of the translation.
I'm going to stop arguing the text with you gents as this conversation is of no merit. If the Bible contained the revelations of science then why did it take so long to state them?
frajo
not rated yet Jul 18, 2010
If the Bible contained the revelations of science then why did it take so long to state them?
Why are you discussing only on the levels of highly uneducated believers like the Creationists? Why don't you take on believers on the level of Theodosius Dobzhansky or the Jesuits? It seems a bit too easy to rant in a generalizing manner about "the believers", covering up their diversity and treating them all like a bunch of ahistorical Creationists.
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet Jul 18, 2010
Why are you discussing only on the levels of highly uneducated believers like the Creationists? Why don't you take on believers on the level of Theodosius Dobzhansky or the Jesuits? It seems a bit too easy to rant in a generalizing manner about "the believers", covering up their diversity and treating them all like a bunch of ahistorical Creationists.
Well I'd say those that have current scientific knowledge, yet still believe in religions, are indoctrinated above and beyond creationists. Someone educated has made their choice already. Someone, brutally under-educated, has received no choice. To attack the educated is to use the manners that I most revile within religion, to do so would be hypocritical. I'd always enjoy a good debate with the people you refer to, however they don't appear to ever be interested in such debate.

Atheism doesn't lead to rational thought, rational thought leads to atheism.
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet Jul 18, 2010
To address your second point more completely, the generalization is intentional. I treat them all as a bunch of ahistorical creationists because they are ahistorical creationists. Religions all require miracles to be believed. Without the miracles, there is nothing. Jesus could have been the result of parthenogenesis, doubtful but not impossible, and not divine by any stretch. Muhammad's miracles of Iron was a simple reference to a commonly held fact that meteroites contain iron. The rantings of Abraham, father of the western faiths, are the mere ramblings of a man driven mad by stress. It's all rather simply explained.

If a man walked up to you on the street today and stated that he's talked to God, and God told him, that people should start having sex as often as possible with indiscriminate partners, what would you say? What would you say if you were an uneducated person living on the streets of India? How about Jerusalem 2000 years ago.