Science historian cracks the 'Plato code'

Jun 28, 2010

(PhysOrg.com) -- A science historian at The University of Manchester has cracked "The Plato Code" - the long disputed secret messages hidden in the great philosopher's writings.

Plato was the Einstein of Greece's Golden Age and his work founded Western culture and science. Dr Jay Kennedy's findings are set to revolutionise the history of the origins of Western thought.

Dr Kennedy, whose findings are published in the leading US journal Apeiron, reveals that Plato used a regular pattern of symbols, inherited from the ancient followers of Pythagoras, to give his books a musical structure. A century earlier, Pythagoras had declared that the planets and stars made an inaudible music, a 'harmony of the spheres'. Plato imitated this hidden music in his books.

The hidden codes show that Plato anticipated the Scientific Revolution 2,000 years before , discovering its most important idea - the book of nature is written in the language of mathematics. The decoded messages also open up a surprising way to unite science and religion. The awe and beauty we feel in nature, Plato says, shows that it is divine; discovering the scientific order of nature is getting closer to God. This could transform today's culture wars between science and religion.


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"Plato's books played a major role in founding Western culture but they are mysterious and end in riddles," Dr Kennedy, at Manchester's Faculty of Life Sciences explains.

"In antiquity, many of his followers said the books contained hidden layers of meaning and secret codes, but this was rejected by modern scholars.

"It is a long and exciting story, but basically I cracked the code. I have shown rigorously that the books do contain codes and symbols and that unraveling them reveals the hidden of Plato.

"This is a true discovery, not simply reinterpretation."

This will transform the early history of Western thought, and especially the histories of ancient science, mathematics, music, and .

Dr Kennedy spent five years studying Plato's writing and found that in his best-known work the Republic he placed clusters of words related to music after each twelfth of the text - at one-twelfth, two-twelfths, etc. This regular pattern represented the twelve notes of a Greek musical scale. Some notes were harmonic, others dissonant. At the locations of the harmonic notes he described sounds associated with love or laughter, while the locations of dissonant notes were marked with screeching sounds or war or death. This musical code was key to cracking Plato's entire symbolic system.

Dr Kennedy, a researcher in the Centre for the History of Science, Technology and Medicine, says: "As we read his books, our emotions follow the ups and downs of a musical scale. Plato plays his readers like musical instruments."

However Plato did not design his secret patterns purely for pleasure - it was for his own safety. Plato's ideas were a dangerous threat to Greek religion. He said that mathematical laws and not the gods controlled the universe. Plato's own teacher had been executed for heresy. Secrecy was normal in ancient times, especially for esoteric and religious knowledge, but for Plato it was a matter of life and death. Encoding his ideas in secret patterns was the only way to be safe.

Plato led a dramatic and fascinating life. Born four centuries before Christ, when Sparta defeated plague-ravaged Athens, he wrote 30 books and founded the world's first university, called the Academy. He was a feminist, allowing women to study at the Academy, the first great defender of romantic love (as opposed to marriages arranged for political or financial reasons) and defended homosexuality in his books. In addition, he was captured by pirates and sold into slavery before being ransomed by friends.

Dr Kennedy explains: "Plato's importance cannot be overstated. He shifted humanity from a warrior society to a wisdom society. Today our heroes are Einstein and Shakespeare - and not knights in shining armour - because of him."

Over the years Dr Kennedy carefully peeled back layer after symbolic layer, sharing each step in lectures in Manchester and with experts in the UK and US.

He recalls: "There was no Rosetta Stone. To announce a result like this I needed rigorous, independent proofs based on crystal-clear evidence.

"The result was amazing - it was like opening a tomb and finding new set of gospels written by Jesus Christ himself.

"Plato is smiling. He sent us a time capsule."

Dr Kennedy's findings are not only surprising and important; they overthrow conventional wisdom on Plato. Modern historians have always denied that there were codes; now Dr Kennedy has proved otherwise.

He adds: "This is the beginning of something big. It will take a generation to work out the implications. All 2,000 pages contain undetected symbols."

Plato quoted:

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

“If women are expected to do the same work as men, we must teach them the same things.”

“Ignorance: the root of all evil.”

“Only the dead have seen the end of war.”

“The price good men pay for indifference to publiuc affairs is to be ruled by evil men.”

“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.”

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User comments : 64

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Milou
Jun 28, 2010
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
MikeMike
3.6 / 5 (10) Jun 28, 2010
The decoded messages also open up a surprising way to unite science and religion. The awe and beauty we feel in nature, Plato says, shows that it is divine; discovering the scientific order of nature is getting closer to God. This could transform today's culture wars between science and religion.

Plato's going to have to come up with something better than this to convince me that god exists.

Sonhouse
5 / 5 (2) Jun 28, 2010
Are the quotes at the end of the piece from the decoded work or already known ones?
WhiteJim
2.1 / 5 (9) Jun 28, 2010
God is Nature and Nature is God.... that is what he is saying.
aroven
5 / 5 (8) Jun 28, 2010
So, do we have to buy the book or something to find out what the discovery actually was? We've got the who, where, when and why of this story but no WHAT? So, uh... WHAT? The only concrete thing described is that there are 12 references to music in the Republic, which line up to a 12 note Greek scale. The article hints that this is a key to understanding some other codes in Plato but doesn't explain what or where they are. I'm tempted to discount the whole story because of the lack of facts, but maybe it's just a poorly written article... So will somebody else please explain what was discovered here???
GSwift7
1.6 / 5 (11) Jun 28, 2010
@Sonhouse: Those are well-known.

"Plato's going to have to come up with something better than this to convince me that god exists"

With all due respect, opinions about that topic don't really matter, do they? ..unless it's somehow important to you that other people agree with you.

"Looks like it clearly describes the last 8 yrs of Bush and cronies"

I would expand your 8 year time frame to include both the Clinton and Obama presidencies, but I think a much better example of evil men ruling due to good men not paying attention would be the United Nations.
ArtflDgr
5 / 5 (3) Jun 28, 2010
If women are to have the same duties as men, they must have the same nurture and education. — Plato, The Republic, Book V, trans. Benjamin Jowett, third edition, Oxford University Press, 1892
Caliban
3.6 / 5 (9) Jun 28, 2010
If you are seeking revelation, have no fear- the fruits of the good professor's efforts will no doubt soon be available on Amazon.

Did you expect to get anything of value for free?
Besides which- what guarantee do we have, other than Kennedy's- that there is anything at all of note in this supposed encoded philosophy?

Haven't we already been enlightened by the Secret Bible Code? The Gospel of J? The DaVinci Code? Code this? Code that?

Almost every passing day provides us with some new claim of a seeker- against all odds, somehow -miraculously- doing the unthinkable- what others have struggled for millenia to accomplish- and recover some lost knowledge from antiquity, that Humankind ignore at their peril.

Kennedy will be more than happy to sell you this enlightenment, so don't worry. I would suggest, however, that you not get your hopes up that it will transform our world in any significant way.

To our everlasting sorrow, I believe that BP is more likely to do
Caliban
3.6 / 5 (9) Jun 28, 2010
I'm not saying that Kennedy's claims should be rejected, out-of-hand, I'm just saying that a little scepticism will be a healthy thing when confronted with claims like this.

If Kennedy has, in fact, stumbled upon the wisdom of the ages, and has received some scientific/spiritual enlightenment- what do you suppose the odds are that he would RETAIL that transformative knowledge to the rest of Humanity?

According to the stories, this isn't how Illumination comes into the world. Gautama, Christ, Muhammed- none of them PEDDLED their wisdom to the people, so why would this guy?

We can hope for some real wisdom, but I would expect little more than some quaint aphorisms, a la Aesop. I hope I'm wrong, but I'll wait and see.
trekgeek1
5 / 5 (7) Jun 28, 2010
" The decoded messages also open up a surprising way to unite science and religion. The awe and beauty we feel in nature, Plato says, shows that it is divine; discovering the scientific order of nature is getting closer to God. This could transform today's culture wars between science and religion."

Stop expecting everything to work nicely together. If two views offer contradicting data, then you must pick the most sensible and realize the other is wrong. Contradicted views will never be reconciled, that is why they are contradicting. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Accept the validity of science for deny it, you cannot pick and choose.
Starblade_Enkai
4.1 / 5 (9) Jun 28, 2010
I'm sorry, but it's clearly wrong that science is based on Plato. Science is based on Aristotle. Kant is based on Plato, and Kant has done nothing but harm to today's science.
PinkElephant
4.5 / 5 (11) Jun 28, 2010
The awe and beauty we feel in nature, Plato says, shows that it is divine
The only thing it shows, is that we feel awe and beauty. The only way to derive divinity from that, is to assume that emotions are supernatural either in origin or in essence. This was a common assumption in Plato's day (and in Plato's philosophy), but aside from begging the question, it falls quite flat (to put it charitably) in the wake of modern neuroscience.
Pete83
3.1 / 5 (12) Jun 28, 2010
There seems to be a lot of people here taking issue with this supposed "God" figure everyone keeps talking about. Please remember, just because you were brought up in a society where the god image is an old man sitting on a Persian throne somewhere up in the clouds, doesn't mean that's what EVERYONE is talking about when they say god. Any rational person who says the word "god" is not talking about this crotchety old man.

"The awe and beauty we feel in nature, Plato says, shows that it is divine; discovering the scientific order of nature is getting closer to God"

Clearly the above statement is saying that nature is god. Again, be careful, as another term for nature here could be reality. The thing us physorg readers often forget (me too), is that language is a very slippery thing.
slaveunit
4 / 5 (4) Jun 28, 2010
what seems to be missed here is that if this fellow has discovered something interesting in the ancient texts of a great man then he will sell it because thats the way the world works nowadays. Second it needs to be peer reviewed and tested for validity and then if it says interesting stuff or even relevant stuff it is still just a point of view and needs to be taken in conbination with modern learning and knowledge.
akotlar
4.5 / 5 (2) Jun 28, 2010
The discovery is interesting regardless of the content of the hidden text. The value of the hidden messages will be evaluated, but Dr. Kennedy's discovery carries intrinsic value, it is an end in itself.
trekgeek1
5 / 5 (9) Jun 28, 2010
There seems to be a lot of people here taking issue with this supposed "God" figure everyone keeps talking about. Please remember, just because you were brought up in a society where the god image is an old man sitting on a Persian throne somewhere up in the clouds, doesn't mean that's what EVERYONE is talking about when they say god. Any rational person who says the word "god" is not talking about this crotchety old man.

"The awe and beauty we feel in nature, Plato says, shows that it is divine; discovering the scientific order of nature is getting closer to God"

Clearly the above statement is saying that nature is god. Again, be careful, as another term for nature here could be reality.


Like Christopher Hitchens says, stop saying God means love or nature or beauty. Just use the words "love, nature, or beauty". You know the stigma that the word "God" has in our society. You are being deceptive to say "God is....".
otto1923
4.8 / 5 (6) Jun 28, 2010
"The awe and beauty we feel in nature, Plato says, shows that it is divine; discovering the scientific order of nature is getting closer to God"
-uh, which god would that be? Apollo perhaps- god of knowledge and oracles? Greeks were polytheists. The author of this article reveals their ignorance of -lots- and perhaps a hidden religionist agenda.

As stargate enkai pointed out above, Plato was not much of a scientist.
RM07
5 / 5 (4) Jun 29, 2010
Why are there so many articles on a science blog that read like infomercials -- full of bold, revolutionary claims, yet devoid of any proof or concrete examples?
MarkyMark
3.3 / 5 (4) Jun 29, 2010
Concerning the claims that Plato found a way to unite science and religion it seems a lot of you are misinterpreting plato.

Do not forget that at the time of plato science was in its early infancy and religion was considered fact. So the fact his ideas had a lot of religion with his primitive science is understandable.

As for his idea he is not all out saying that god as we understand is real, he is saying that nature is mathmatical in nature with so much perfect mathmatical connections that if you look hard enough at nature you will see its inherant beauty and through this be closer to god [god being Nature and its seeming perfection.

It is a nice thought really. But dont forget his background.
Caliban
3.7 / 5 (6) Jun 29, 2010
The discovery is interesting regardless of the content of the hidden text. The value of the hidden messages will be evaluated, but Dr. Kennedy's discovery carries intrinsic value, it is an end in itself.


@akotlar,
Why don't we wait and see exactly what -if anything- Kennedy has found, and from that draw conclusions. So far, all we have are some Grandiose, but sketchy claims, and very lttle actual information, which should be reason for caution -if not outright scepticism- right at the outset. Mr Kennedy is trying to SELL SOMETHING.
Objectivist
5 / 5 (4) Jun 29, 2010
"Any rational person who says the word 'god' is not talking about this crotchety old man."

To a rational person "God" is merely a product of irrational behavior.
SMMAssociates
4 / 5 (3) Jun 29, 2010
Let us not forget that the works of Plato may have been "recited" for the Greeks (and others) by trained orators (as is still done in places like Turkey today), and that a sort of musical notation may have been impressed ON them to aid the reciters. If you read Homer, you probably can see this sort of thing directly - certain main characters are always referred to by names like "Achilles The Mighty" rather than just by his name. Word games to help the reciter....

I don't see anything else there....

frajo
3 / 5 (8) Jun 29, 2010
but mens are still more able to educate themselves. Who learned me about physics, computers, programming etc...?
Must have been the same guy who taught you English, alizee.
I'll praise him forever because he imprinted you with a mark to be recognized no matter behind which account you are trying to hide.
ralph_wiggum
5 / 5 (5) Jun 29, 2010
So are there any independent confirmations/refutations of this discovery? As everybody knows if you look hard enough for a "code", you'll find it in any large text (see the "Bible code").

The article is very short on detail and 3rd party reviews/opinions. The only magazines named "Apeiron" I can google up are Polish and Spanish, not US, with no mention of this work that I could see. Color me skeptical for now.
ArcainOne
5 / 5 (3) Jun 29, 2010
It is amazing how true the old quote is. "The more things change, the more they stay the same." Reading a few of Plato's quotes tells me that for the last 2000 years politics and people are still the same...
Jigga
1 / 5 (6) Jun 29, 2010
..which account you are trying to hide...
It's surprising, how many people are enjoying a censorship, when applied to other people.
frajo
2.5 / 5 (6) Jun 29, 2010
It's surprising, how many people are enjoying a censorship, when applied to other people.
You don't even understand the meaning of censorship, alizee.
ArcainOne
5 / 5 (9) Jun 29, 2010
If women are expected to do the same work as men, we must teach them the same things
Well, yes - but mens are still more able to educate themselves. Who learned me about physics, computers, programming etc...?


The first programmer was a woman... know your history, know your sociology, and know your anthropology before making stupid unfounded remarks on a science news site...
frajo
4.1 / 5 (9) Jun 29, 2010
The only magazines named "Apeiron" I can google up are Polish and Spanish, not US, with no mention of this work that I could see. Color me skeptical for now.
Here it is, well hidden:
http://redshift.v...Home.htm
They sell books, too. One book has the "revolutionary" title "The Static Universe : Exploding the Myth of Cosmic Expansion", Another one is "Einstein and the Ether".

I don't like this article at all. The text is quite misleading. IMHO its been produced to draw attention to a forthcoming book to be sold in the apeiron bookstore.

Btw, apeiron has two meanings in contemporary Greek: "infinity" and "unexperienced" (cp. empeiria).

The concept of harmony was the central and most fundamental concept in ancient Greece, similar in its importance to the ancient Chinese principle of yin and yang. Harmony was not only to be achieved in music, language, geometry/mathematics, and architecture. It was of importance for war and peace, for men and gods, for life and death.
Caliban
3.2 / 5 (6) Jun 29, 2010
@frajo,

Good work with that last post. Most people are better able to understand this concept of harmony as a "dynamic balance of forces".

Also closely tied to the Pythagoran concept of the Golden Mean.

So, we are already in possession of this wisdom of the ancients- and this is why I expect that Kennedy's revelation will consist of a mere underwhelming rehash of already familiar concepts.

"Don't believe the hype!"
frajo
3 / 5 (4) Jun 29, 2010
Most people are better able to understand this concept of harmony as a "dynamic balance of forces".
Thanks. It's indeed a more suitable translation for contemporary ears.
chall
5 / 5 (3) Jun 29, 2010
This is not a new idea. RJ McKay taught classical greek at Long Beach State in the early 1970's and in his classes openly discussed the musical nature of not only the written Platonic dialogues, but of this musical nature when the dialogues were recited in classical Greek.
juggle12
not rated yet Jun 29, 2010
A quick search on the author's name + Plato will reveal more info: http://personalpa...kennedy/
...for those of you who would rather form your own opinions.

The discovery is interesting regardless of the content of the hidden text. The value of the hidden messages will be evaluated, but Dr. Kennedy's discovery carries intrinsic value, it is an end in itself.


@akotlar,
Why don't we wait and see exactly what -if anything- Kennedy has found, and from that draw conclusions. So far, all we have are some Grandiose, but sketchy claims, and very lttle actual information, which should be reason for caution -if not outright scepticism- right at the outset. Mr Kennedy is trying to SELL SOMETHING.

BSW
not rated yet Jun 30, 2010
Seriously?! An article somehow is used to bash former pres Bush? Think big picture politics dude...did you see the stock market TODAY?!
PinkElephant
3.5 / 5 (2) Jun 30, 2010
@BSW,

Regarding "TODAY" and so forth, and so on, etcetera: what's coming, it's been a looong time a-coming... This might open your eyes a bit:

http://market-tic...ard.html

Every great empire ultimately self-destructs in a paroxysm of hubris and fatuous, narcissistic egotism. It happened to Plato's Greece. It happened to the Romans. And it's about to happen all over again... I find it pitiful that, being so enlightened, we didn't last on top of the world for even a measly single century.
Caliban
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 30, 2010
Seriously?! An article somehow is used to bash former pres Bush? Think big picture politics dude...did you see the stock market TODAY?!


Indeed I did- did you know that the G-8 and G-20 conferences were held over the weekend, with results best described as "inconclusive", and that the Deepwater Horizon well continues to gush millions of gallons of oil into the Gulf each day?

I could, with authority, say that both are the result of the ongoing implementation of policy and legislation that were activated during the Bush years. But why bother now- it seems kind of beside the point, as we now have more important fish to fry...

Ah- what the hell- do a search of "dollar refunding programme", and swim around in that for a while. It'll make your brown eyes blue, BSW, and maybe, just maybe, change the way you think about things here in the good ole usa.
Ethelred
5 / 5 (4) Jun 30, 2010
for those of you who would rather form your own opinions


Thanks for the link. I see however that there is nothing more there than in the article except some pretty unfounded speculation. Well at least not founded in what Kennedy is claiming.

That is he has shown a musical rhythm to Plato. The article above implies that there is something else but the rest is pure, well wild assed guessing, that tells us more about Kennedy than Plato.

juggle12

Welcome if you are new. If you are Alizee with another sockpuppet, well that was a rare useful post.

Frajo

I seriously doubt that VestaR is Alizee. For one Alizee's english has improved quite a lot. For another sexist remarks are something I can't remember seeing from someone that many think might be female.

I suspect that he is the Indian that his profile makes him out to be.

VestaR

Not only was the daughter of Lord Byron the first programmer one of the first computer languages, COBOL, was begun by a woman.

Ethelred
frajo
1.8 / 5 (5) Jun 30, 2010
I seriously doubt that VestaR is Alizee. For one Alizee's english has improved quite a lot.
Did you read VestaR's comment
Due the higher information density the community of scientists is behaving like black hole,
under the PhysOrg article "Do scientists understand the public?" ? I don't know any user except alizee who expresses views like this one.
Jigga
1.9 / 5 (7) Jun 30, 2010
It seems a new game or even competition based on guessing of my identity has been established here...;-)

..not only was the daughter of Lord Byron the first programmer one of the first computer languages, COBOL, was begun by a woman..
In fact the percentage of women in IT declines gradually..

http://www.cioins...9442.gif
http://anitaborg....omen.pdf
frajo
2.4 / 5 (5) Jun 30, 2010
It seems a new game or even competition based on guessing of my identity has been established here...;-)
Your identity is of no interest. But your dishonest behaviour (using multiple accounts) and your unjustified arrogance (you think you're smarter than the rest) is to be understood as a cry for education.
In fact the percentage of women in IT declines gradually..
Maybe in the US. But this doesn't imply the same holds for China and other countries.
Pumamoon
4.8 / 5 (4) Jun 30, 2010
I think it's great Plato hid music in his writing.
But Kennedy reveals his own agenda in the first paragraph of this piece, i.e.
"The awe and beauty we feel in nature, Plato says, shows that it is divine; discovering the scientific order of nature is getting closer to God."
When are Christians (and others) going to stop forcing their religion on everyone? When will they accept history and peoples from other cultural and spiritual points of view instead of rubber stamping their own on them?
The Greeks had no conception of a single godhead. So stop trying to twist history into your own little idea. It's disrespectful, ignorant and enough cultures have been destroyed because of it.
Caliban
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 30, 2010
I think it's great Plato hid music in his writing.
But Kennedy reveals his own agenda in the first paragraph of this piece, i.e.


In principle, Pumamoon, I'm inclined to agree with you, but I've a feeling that Kennedy is guilty of imprecise language when refering to "God".

In the instance, it seems from the context of his remark that he means something more generic than the Judeo-Xian god.

I could be wrong in that, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, until the book is available, and settles the issue.
Pumamoon
5 / 5 (2) Jun 30, 2010
Well, you're far more generous than I, Caliban, regarding such.
I've seen too much bloodshed in our planet's history.......
Caliban
2.3 / 5 (3) Jul 01, 2010
Well, you're far more generous than I, Caliban, regarding such.
I've seen too much bloodshed in our planet's history.......


@Pumamoon,

Agreed. I might have voiced a stronger opinion, myself, but decided -uncharacteristically- to "bite my tongue". I'm not entirely sure what prompted the impulse, but you may rest assured that it wasn't fear of any Divine wrath.
FGLWRK
3 / 5 (2) Jul 01, 2010
This article does not accurately reflect the concepts described by Dr. Kennedy. It over sensationalizes the concept that Dr. Kennedy is trying to make, to the point that his concept is wholly distorted. The "Big" revelation is now being capable of using this structure to determine which of Plato's documents have likely been altered or censored. A rythym, and ultimate crescendo in a written document other than poetry does not equate to hidden message...simply makes the document harmonious with our human nature. Our current day
movie writers do this too, it keeps you captivated.
If not, it likely doesn't get read or watched.

The full article can be found here: http://personalpa...oofs.pdf
Pete83
1 / 5 (2) Jul 01, 2010
Lol @ American's arguing. The number of times you have all said "here", and "we" and "us", as if the ONLY people that visit this site are Americans.
CaptainBlack
5 / 5 (2) Jul 02, 2010
The paper/s in question is available from Jay Kennedy's University of Manchester page:

http://personalpa...kennedy/

CB
frajo
1 / 5 (2) Jul 02, 2010
The number of times you have all said "here", and "we" and "us", as if the ONLY people that visit this site are Americans.
What makes you think so? At least, you should have pointed to or quoted some comments which confirm your claim.
oknoorap
not rated yet Jul 03, 2010
Its really hard to decode in mathematic language

http://www.faktailmiah.com
dnaDude
not rated yet Jul 03, 2010
I just think it would be nice if the "enlarge" image button actually enlarged the image more than 1.1x.
knikiy
5 / 5 (1) Jul 03, 2010
So, do we have to buy the book or something to find out what the discovery actually was? We've got the who, where, when and why of this story but no WHAT? So, uh... WHAT? The only concrete thing described is that there are 12 references to music in the Republic, which line up to a 12 note Greek scale. The article hints that this is a key to understanding some other codes in Plato but doesn't explain what or where they are. I'm tempted to discount the whole story because of the lack of facts, but maybe it's just a poorly written article... So will somebody else please explain what was discovered here???


I take it that you would like a 1 page internet article to distill what Dr. Kennedy has spent years researching based on thousands of pages of Plato's writings? You must have skipped over this part:
"This is the beginning of something big. It will take a generation to work out the implications. All 2,000 pages contain undetected symbols."
SoftBaked
not rated yet Jul 03, 2010
"Discovering the scientific order of nature is getting closer to God. This could transform today's culture wars between science and religion."

Most science-minded people have been saying this at least since the dawn of recorded history, it's far from a new idea. Sadly, the 'culture war' has nothing to do with God and science, it's all about a bunch of idiots who want everyone to embrace the Bible and never to question it. Getting closer to God through science is anti-Bible.
GenesisNemesis
5 / 5 (1) Jul 04, 2010
It means nothing to say that the Universe is god. Gods probably do not exist, and nature almost certainly is not a god. I do not see the reason why people wish to call things "god", or that science brings us closer to "god" when you can simply say that science brings us closer to "nature".

You don't always have to agree, even with the greatest philosophers.
michaelick
not rated yet Jul 05, 2010
Religion was born from the minds of mere human beings and thus has little to do with nature. Scienctists instead try to appreciate the beauty of Nature itself. This beauty of the universe, the nature, its laws and life itself can be called godlike, but this has nothing to do with the god in the bible, it's only a term to describe the overwhelming feelings when thinking about nature.
blood13
not rated yet Jul 05, 2010
Why does everyone respond so violently to the idea of any form of deity? The truth is that regardless of one's opinions, valid cases can be made both for and against this creature's existence in philosophy. Only a fool speaks in absolutes pertaining to what he cannot possibly know for certain. And as for Plato's god, he was NOT speaking about nature itself. He was speaking about a perfect Mind; the sum of all knowledge, which we in our humble state could only begin to comprehend through the "Form" (or ideal) of beauty, be it found in nature or in art.

Perhaps the best literary example of this concept is discovered in Lewis' "Last Battle" - that the objects we see and barely touch are mere shadows cast by their truer selves, which exist solely on some higher level of existence.

If you're going to discuss philosophy, at least know what you're discussing.
blood13
not rated yet Jul 05, 2010
Why does everyone respond so violently to the idea of any form of deity? The truth is that regardless of your opinions, valid cases can be made both for and against this creature's existence in philosophy. Only a fool speaks in absolutes pertaining to what he cannot possibly know for certain.

And as for Plato's god, he was neither speaking of nature itself or of a "crotchety old man" (well put). He was speaking about a perfect Mind; the sum of all knowledge, as well as its better, which we in our humble state can only begin to comprehend most perfectly through our perception of the "form" of beauty, be it found in nature or in art.

Plato's belief was that the only way to our fallen minds to touch deity's face was through a deeper appreciation of and understanding of reality.
Ethelred
not rated yet Jul 05, 2010
The truth is that regardless of your opinions, valid cases can be made both for and against this creature's existence in philosophy.


Would you care to give an example of a case for the existence of a god?

I mean something besides the claim that existence is evidence of a god since as that is beyond merely weak.

Ethelred
Feynman007
not rated yet Jul 05, 2010
Plato borrowed Ideas from Pythagoras. where did Pythagoras get his ideas from? Pythagoras got his ideas from India. Pythagoras made his way to India in 6th century BC. Apastamba Sulba Sutra, a set of mathematical formulas and principles belonged to 8th century B.C. and was in use in India which contains a list of Pythagorian Triples. It is indicative of the fact that Pythagoras learnt it from India before teaching the Greeks. Accoding to Albert Burk, Pythagoras copied it on his visit to India. Lecky in his 'History of European Morals' quotes an old tradition in Greece that Pythagoras had learnt in India from gymnosophists.

Hindu thought exerted a great influence on ancient Greek thought as M.E. Pococke shows in his 'India in Greece'.It is believed that besides Pythagoras, Appolonius, Democritus, Anaxarchus and Pyrrho also visited India. According to Lucianus, the Golden Philosophy first descended upon "the Indians, the mightiest nation upon the earth".
Feynman007
not rated yet Jul 05, 2010
Pythagoras made his way to India in 6th century BC. Apastamba Sulba Sutra, a compilation of mathematical formulae and principles in use in India in 8th century B.C. contains a list of Pythagorian Triples. Accoding to Albert Burk, Pythagoras copied it on his visit to India. Lecky in his 'History of European Morals' quotes an old tradition in Greece that Pythagoras had learnt in India from gymnosophists. As M.E, Pockoke has shown, Hindu thought exerted a great influence on ancient Greek thought (see 'India in Greece'). If as Alfred North Whitehead stated western philosophy is a series of footnotes to Plato" (Alfred North Whitehead, Process and Reality, p. 39 [Free Press, 1979], in light of Pythagoras' influence on Plato's thought, and Pythagoras' intellectual debt to Indian philosophers and mathematicians, it is safe to conjecture that western philosophy (and much of modern physics and cosmology) is a series of footnotes to Hindu thought.
Tomas007
not rated yet Jul 10, 2010
In the past we see that a lot of places had great knowledge like India, Egypt, Atlantis, etc... We see structures more advanced in South America then any other place on Earth. The pre-Greeks that lived on the Greek land known as Pelasgians in Greek translates as the survivors that came from the sea. A lot of people say they were the survivors of the great flood (the flood mentioned by many cultures all over the globe). So India or Atlantis or whatever it is our people on this Earth had more knowledge then we have today. We are now re-learning what was known and that came from many nations. As they left their lands to find better ones they spread what they knew. What Jay Kennedy has discovered is more proof of the most complete and perfect language that exists today. The whole Greek language is based in math and each Greek word has meaning. Just the language alone can solve mathematical problems.

To start there are 3 letters in todays Greek Alphabet that were lost. Those are the
Tomas007
not rated yet Jul 10, 2010
double gamma that looks like an F the kopi which can look almost like a Q and the sampi which is Pi on a 45 degree angle. This creates the original Greek Alphabet which is divided into 3 (1-9, 10-90 and 100-900) This is why computers can read Greek perfectly because the words all come from the basis of 2 other words but also because they are also based in numbers. A good video to watch is http://www.facebo...03467343 and you will see (it's in Greek but you will understand the math done with the language) how complete this language is and this is why what Jay Kennedy found is very important. One quick example. The Greek letter O (omikron) for example if you take each letter that spells omikron you get the number 360 which in math is the degrees of a circle. The Greek word for ONE equals 1 the word TWO equals 2 and so on. So this is AMAZING! New studies also show that the whole India view might not be correct.
frajo
3 / 5 (2) Jul 10, 2010
This is PhysOrg, a site dedicated to the sciences. Not to Greek prolipsi. Digamma, kopi, and sampi are not lost, they are just not in use anymore. What's special about
why computers can read Greek perfectly
? They "can read" Latin and English just as well. What do you mean by
the words all come from the basis of 2 other words
? How do you define the "completeness" of a language? Isn't a "complete" language necessarily a dead language? The mathematical number for the angle defined by a circle is not 360 but 2*PI. 360 degrees are a mere convention as are 400 grads.
Numerology isn't science; it's superstition.
stanfrax
1 / 5 (3) Jul 26, 2010
the god he talks about which exsist and can be proooved [n physics maths numeroligy geomitry - that have been with us from the dawn of our being - but have been buried by powers that wanted control and resorces - parts were emersed in the different religions when they were created - but i dont want to disscuss because every human on this planet as a right to beleive in watever they want - theres old books to choose from or research - plato was awake
Ethelred
not rated yet Jul 26, 2010
Plato is long dead. He didn't have special knowledge any more than Mohamed or Joseph Smith did. However some people, such as Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard, have pretended to have knowledge. And suckers keep buying into the fantasy.

Rosicrucians, Numerologists, Kabalaists, Theosophists and Platoists for that matter have all conned themselves into believing in SECRET KNOWLEDGE.

Come get it while its hot. Be sure to get in on 2012 before it's too late. Don't look behind the curtain and buy your snake oil now before the evil repressive whatever takes it away.

Ethelred
commentator
not rated yet Aug 26, 2010
I have not read Kennedy's paper but from the limited information in the article it sounds like this is not exactly a "new discovery." Ernst McClain's book "Pythagorean Plato" (1978) expounds in detail the insight that Plato's works and many of the allegories therein are structured in accordance with musical harmonics. Kennedy's paper - the details of which do not seem to be included at all here - may differ from McClain's book with regard to specifics, but as it is described in this article this is not a "new discovery." In any event... Kennedy's paper sounds potentially interesting even if its not as "new" as the above story suggests.