Why you should stay on the grid, even with your solar-powered batteries

February 16, 2016 by Rodney Stewart, Griffith University, The Conversation
There’s a good reason to connected to the electricity distribution network. Credit: Flickr/Indigo Skies Photography , CC BY-NC-ND

Anything that can help cut our electricity bill is to be welcomed, and Tesla's solar rechargeable batteries, now available in Australia, are just the latest option.

Many Australian households have already installed solar photovoltaic (PV) panels to generate their own , even selling some back into the grid. Now they will have the extra option of storing any electricity they generate to use whenever they like.

But the idea of becoming self-sustaining and coming off the grid altogether is not the way to go if we are to have a system that doesn't create winners and losers.

The cost of incentives

For any reform to electricity pricing be effective, it must have positive effects on electricity price cost components such as generation, transmission and distribution.

But recent decisions by governments have not considered the interests of the entire customer base. For instance, power generated from solar PV is usually fed to the grid during the day, when wholesale electricity pricing is low, instead of evening peak periods when demand is high in residential areas.

Early adopters of solar are not complaining, though, as they received generous federal government installation incentives and state government legislation protecting their Feed-in Tariffs (FIT). These can be double the present peak tariff rate regardless of the time of day power is returned (in Queensland the solar bonus scheme 44c/kW FIT legislated to 2028).

When this legislation was put in place, governments were concerned predominately with reducing carbon emissions. They did not consider the impact these schemes would have on long-term electricity prices for all consumers.

Government-owned electricity distribution businesses across Australia had to absorb the cost of the generous FIT enjoyed by some customers. They transferred this cost back into the off-peak, peak and fixed cost components of all customer electricity accounts.

The biggest losers of this were customers who had no opportunity to take up those incentives such as renters, unit owners and low-income households.

A broken system

The traditional market arrangement is already broken. The distributed generation of electricity by solar, wind and other alternatives and storage, such as home batteries, are being manufactured on a scale that will accelerate their market penetration.

As a society we don't want to repeat the mistakes of the solar PV incentive schemes that created winners and losers.

So any policy that motivates a significant proportion of the population to go off-grid would have a catastrophic impact on the electricity industry. Prices would need to rise for those still on the grid as the largely fixed electricity distribution cost burden would be carried by fewer customers.

At the moment, the electrical power industry operates within what's termed a Just-in-Time (JIT) framework. That means there is no electricity stored so it must generate what it needs to meet the demand at the time. It is reliant on variable customer demands and other factors such as the weather.

But if there was adequate storage in the grid from homes with batteries, engineers could design grids and power plants for a relatively consistent base load power generation. This would result in a much lower average wholesale electricity price.

Researchers are working on intelligent management systems. These will enable communications between the grid transformers and any energy storage, such as home batteries, for the timely release of stored power to the grid.

Similar ideas are already being talked about by others in the battery storage industry and were presented at a conference on clean energy in Brisbane this week.

Any renewable energy policy should be refined to only give incentives to renewables that are coupled with energy storage. This will stimulate the energy storage industry and lower the price across almost all electricity cost components by flattening the electricity demand curve.

A smart part of the network

So a combined solar PV and battery storage system should not get people thinking they can survive off the grid. Instead, they should be thinking about how they can be part of an intelligent electricity network that deliveries efficiencies for all.

Intelligent metering combined with a rethink on electricity tariff arrangements, such as time-of-day pricing and peak pricing, would enable a truly efficient cost-reflective pricing regime to take hold in Australia.

Any benefits from a smart grid arrangement would require all customers to be on board. It would also require all levels of government to be bold enough to carry the burden of one of Australia's most significant reform agendas.

Widespread intelligent metering and regulatory change in the power industry can reduce the price of electricity in the short term. In the medium term, energy storage is the missing link for further driving down pricing for all Australians.

A not-so-smart network?

But what if there is no intelligent metering to make use of any increased take up in battery storage systems, and people still opted out of the grid?

In this scenario, state governments could legislate that a significant fixed cost must be carried by any off-grid customer if an existing electricity supply runs past their premises.

Such legislation is not uncommon for utility services. Councils have for years charged customers the full cost for "available" sewerage services even when the premises has its own off-grid septic wastewater system.

So going off grid may not be the smartest move in delivering any savings to a household's electricity bill.

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114 comments

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WillieWard
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 16, 2016
"power generated from solar PV is usually fed to the grid during the day, when wholesale electricity pricing is low, instead of evening peak periods when demand is high in residential areas."
out-of-phase with demand
"Why you should stay on the grid, even with your solar-powered batteries"
to let the fossil-fueled power plants to compensate your solar/wind system intermittency, mutually beneficial as you can save your batteries lifetime/charge-discharge cycles.
Eikka
3.8 / 5 (9) Feb 16, 2016
Any renewable energy policy should be refined to only give incentives to renewables that are coupled with energy storage. This will stimulate the energy storage industry and lower the price across almost all electricity cost components by flattening the electricity demand curve.


This applies outside of Australia as well.

44 c/kWh is madness, and none of it is going towards any actual infrastructure improvements under the current subsidy schemes. It's just paying some already-rich pricks to let them pretend to be green and feel morally superior to those who can't afford to get paid by the public.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (5) Feb 16, 2016
The fixed feed-in tarrifs have served their purpose (getting a significant amount of renewables on the grid). Switching this over to demand dependent feed-in tarrifs makes sense (i.e. low tarrifs if you feed in at low demand times because you have no batteries vs. high tarrifs if you feed in during high demand times).
This would incentivise individuals getting battery storage.

Decentralized (read: personal) storage has another big advantage: it is a lot more catastrophe proof than centralized storage which is dependent on intact long-distance power lines.
(Whether a decentralized system is more or less hack-proof can be argued either way)

From an economic standpoint it makes sense: The government gets storage up and running (fast) without having to invest much (with the exception of some power lines), while individuals can benefit from selling self-generated power at high rates without wanting to go off grid.

(Companies don't benefit. But they're rich enough as is)
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Feb 16, 2016
Companies do benefit, from peak power being generated by others, without transmission losses. I produce my power now, at peak, but use it off-peak. I trade my peak power kWh for their off-peak power kWh/kWh.

It's okay. Now, I do not use the transmission system, but pay for it. But it is okay.
eboyhan
3.4 / 5 (5) Feb 17, 2016
There are many reasons for going off the grid. Here in Florida if there's a hurricane that takes out the grid, that can severely handicap a solar home owner's ability to ride out the grid down time, if they are forced to be grid-connected. With batteries in the home, and totally off the grid, the homeowner is indifferent to the state of the grid.

The author here seems to be taking the point of view that we need to preserve a business whose viability is challenged by technological advances.

As a matter of policy we should deprecate reliance on the grid, a single point of failure, and strive instead for a totally decentralized electricity system in which each home (or multifamily facility) provides for their own energy needs. The grid if it continues to exist might be there for industrial or military needs (although I think decentralization there too makes sense).

In a world where cyber terrorism is an existential threat to the grid, decentralization makes a lot of sense.
Eikka
3.6 / 5 (10) Feb 17, 2016
I produce my power now, at peak, but use it off-peak. I trade my peak power kWh for their off-peak power kWh/kWh.

It's okay. Now, I do not use the transmission system, but pay for it. But it is okay.


We've been over this many times.

The amount of solar power already on the grid in California means that the mid-day peak no longer exists - except on cloudy days. Enough people are making solar power that the peak has dropped.

The real peak in California, as in Australia, has shifted to early evening. That means you are in fact producing power off-peak and using power on-peak. Completely the opposite of what you pretend is happening.

And since you have no batteries, every Watt you generate uses the transmission grid to transmit it out of your house, but you pay no transmission fee for it. Instead, you are getting paid free electricity + transmission later in the day when the actual peak happens because of net metering.

This system is completely ass-backwards.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (5) Feb 17, 2016
The author here seems to be taking the point of view that we need to preserve a business whose viability is challenged by technological advances.

I think there's a bit more to it. There are infrastructures which you use and which require power (traffic lights, water pumps for your water supply, wastewater treatment, hospitals, industries that are power intensive to the point where local power supplies aren't adequate, in the near future: electric vehicles ...).
All of these require a grid. So we shouldn't fall from one extreme into another.
Having the option of going off grid is nice, but we are a society. As such every member of society has a responsibility to support things that benefit society. And that includes a grid (until we manage to manufacture pocket-size fusion reactors).
gkam
1.9 / 5 (13) Feb 17, 2016
"The amount of solar power already on the grid in California means that the mid-day peak no longer exists - except on cloudy days. Enough people are making solar power that the peak has dropped."
------------------------------------

That is absolute nonsense. SHOW ME!

In fact, the PUC is going to have everybody on time-of-use rates, because of the disparity.

Your need is making you foolish. We have nowhere near the PV to make a significant impact on peak yet. And on my TOU rate, I produce at PEAK.

Since it is new, I watch the meter, and correlate it with weather and usage, to see how much over the promise of output I get.
gkam
1.9 / 5 (13) Feb 17, 2016
Eikka wants us to think we all have European character of selfishness. Actually, we have worse in the Bible Belt, but we will let that go. No, Eikka, my system works exactly as I said, and not like you want it to work.

How about yours? Or are you one of the whiners and not one of the doers?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.6 / 5 (14) Feb 17, 2016
Gkam wants us to think we all have psychopathic character of selfishness which makes us look in every thread for an excuse to talk about ourselves.

Hey george - how long before your wife's alleged pv panels are on Google earth? Inquiring minds want to know-

George kamburoff
533 Westover Ln. - Pleasant Hill, CA 94523
voice/fax 925-256-1444 email: george@kamburoff.com
(From Georges website)
gkam
1.9 / 5 (13) Feb 17, 2016
Yes, I am real and you are not. I said that right out front, to those of you who are too SCARED to take responsibility for your words. Go hide behind your cut-out and pseudonyms.

We have seen your kind of vandal before, cowering in the bushes of the internet. Weak and powerless in real life, you take on the bully role here, not having to admit your real self.

You are an old story, otto.
WillieWard
2.1 / 5 (7) Feb 17, 2016
Without signs or evidence that indicate the presence of rooftop solar panels.
https://www.googl...!6m1!1e1
gkam
1.9 / 5 (13) Feb 17, 2016
Look at the year, Willie. And the panels would not show in that view, anyway. I'll send a pic of 16 of the 18 panels to Ira, who may misrepresent it.

See the oak tree decoration on the house? It is a runout from the foundry in 1978, iron which pooled on the sand floor of the foundry in that shape. It is also the symbol of Pleasant Hill.
Uncle Ira
3.7 / 5 (12) Feb 17, 2016
Look at the year, Willie. And the panels would not show in that view, anyway. I'll send a pic of 16 of the 18 panels to Ira, who may misrepresent it.


Don't send them to me, I already know what those solar panes look like. But maybe you could tell me how much they cost and can you finance them at a good rate?
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Feb 17, 2016
There are 18 of them, at 255 W apiece. The entire installation with permits, inverter, and all the paperwork done for me, . . a complete turn-key job. It cost just under $18k raw, or $12.6k with tax bennies. We save about a centabuck a month of power for the house, and may save about $150/month on gas with the EV. We are not yet there.

We put in a system to carry 95% of the household use, and were going to use off-peak power at night at an EV rate for the car. But it is already producing more than the house uses, and subsidizes the car. In the Summer we will carry both, but it may not be sufficient for both car and house integrated over an entire year.

You are in a good spot for PV.
gkam
1.9 / 5 (13) Feb 17, 2016
Now, I want to see Willie's house.

Got the guts?

I took him off ignore, because he is such an easy target.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Feb 17, 2016
BTW, the power we do buy for the car is at ten cents/kWh, or 2.5 cents per mile. So we have saved most of the transportation costs already.
antigoracle
2.5 / 5 (8) Feb 17, 2016
$150/month on gas with the EV

You burned so much on gasoline and have the gall to chastise others about AGW.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (13) Feb 17, 2016
Yes, I am real and you are not. I said that right out front, to those of you who are too SCARED to take responsibility for your words. Go hide behind your cut-out and pseudonyms
Yeah you keep repeating this not realizing that your actions here have confirmed that george kamburoff is a compulsive liar and most likely a flaming psychopath.

That's about as real as it gets.

What makes you think that sort of behavior is something to be proud of?

Why do you think that displaying it to the world isn't a sign of pathology and not courage? Most people would tell you, and probably have, that it's sickness and not health.

I choose not to drop my drawers and moon shoppers down at the mall. Does this make me a coward?

This is how you think.
https://en.m.wiki...formant!
gkam
2.1 / 5 (14) Feb 17, 2016
"You burned so much on gasoline "
-------------------------------------
No, I corrected it, and now drive without any pollutants at all. Unlike you.

Our gas is higher in California because we insist on a clean environment. Unlike you.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (13) Feb 17, 2016
Mark witacre. Nothing but lies. But then he had a major motion picture made about him starring Matt damon from The Martian.

Is this what you're holding out for?

Just remember, Damons character was based on a real individual but the character he played was not real but a dramatization.

This would be a very apt description of the character you play here at physorg, wouldn't it george?

You try to pretend you're something that you're not - decorated but suffering war hero with ptd/ptsd/ppsh?, engineer, polymath, expert environmental mgr and nuclear watchdog.

But you're oblivious to the fact that you're as transparent as the Piss Christ.

Witacre and Damon both have genuine talent. You have none.
antigoracle
3 / 5 (6) Feb 17, 2016
"You burned so much on gasoline "
-------------------------------------
No, I corrected it, and now drive without any pollutants at all. Unlike you.

Our gas is higher in California because we insist on a clean environment. Unlike you.

Tell me your average annual mileage and we can compare.
gkam
1.9 / 5 (13) Feb 17, 2016
"Mark witacre. Nothing but lies. But then he had a major motion picture made about him starring Matt damon from The Martian, . . you're oblivious to the fact that you're as transparent as the Piss Jesus."
---------------------------------------

Please get help.
Uncle Ira
3.6 / 5 (11) Feb 17, 2016
You are in a good spot for PV.


It would be my luck to get him up on the roof and running and a great big cat 4 or 3 storm would come in and break all the panes or blow him into the swamp.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (13) Feb 17, 2016
"Mark witacre. Nothing but lies. But then he had a major motion picture made about him starring Matt damon from The Martian, . . you're oblivious to the fact that you're as transparent as the Piss Jesus."
---------------------------------------

Please get help.
Lots of people here have helped me out you george. Have you forgotten?

Sorry - I was thinking about how offensive your chronic lying, fact-fabricating, 1-line-post flooding, etc are and the image of a crucifix immersed in urine came to mind.

I didn't mean to offend but merely to enlighten. And hey - some of your stuff is in a museum as well so there you are.

Ripleys Believe It or Not as I recall.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (13) Feb 17, 2016

See the oak tree decoration on the house? It is a runout from the foundry in 1978, iron which pooled on the sand floor of the foundry in that shape. It is also the symbol of Pleasant Hill
Ah jeez I just gave george another excuse to talk about himself.

My bad.

Say george is that why you got fired from that job? For stealing materials?
gkam
1.5 / 5 (13) Feb 17, 2016
I left the foundry to go into research for government agencies, specifically the DCPA, NASA, and the NRC. What did you do?
gkam
1.5 / 5 (13) Feb 17, 2016
I be nice to Ira and answer all his questions courteously, yet he still marks it down.

Character on display right here, folks.
Uncle Ira
3.2 / 5 (13) Feb 17, 2016
I be nice to Ira and answer all his questions courteously, yet he still marks it down.

Being nice to me? Writing a dozen postums about how great you are is not being nice to me, or anybody else on the physorg. It is you being selfish thinking the physorg is here for giving glam-Skippy a special place where he can try to make somebody think he is special.

Character on display right here, folks.

Okayeei, you got that part right. You certainly are the character on display.
antigoracle
3.7 / 5 (9) Feb 17, 2016
I left the foundry to go into research for government agencies, specifically the DCPA, NASA, and the NRC. What did you do?

Wow!! From cleaning up spills at the foundry to research at NASA. Let me guess, they were interested in the inner workings of a mop?
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Feb 17, 2016
Mops in a foundry? You are displaying your ignorance of industry.
antigoracle
3.5 / 5 (8) Feb 17, 2016
Iron spill on the front of your house, that you cleaned up at the foundry. Hence, JANITOR, thus mops. No wonder they fired you.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Feb 17, 2016
Thanks again for confirming our suspicions.
antigoracle
3.5 / 5 (8) Feb 18, 2016
OUR suspicions..Really?
Are you trying to add Dissociative Identity Disorder to your long list of maladies.
Tell us what "research" you did at NASA and how long you lasted there?
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Feb 18, 2016
Apparently you are ignorant of how it all works. Oh, . . do I have to look up the site of my NASA Report?

Go here: http://ntrs.nasa....10025595

I am on top of page 41.

Where are you?
gkam
1.6 / 5 (13) Feb 18, 2016
Ira, otto and anti seem to think I am as phony as they are, as they hide behind pseudonyms. I gave out my real name and address, not afraid to take responsibility for my own words. Too bad many here are not so brave or honest.

BTW, that report implies some important messages and warnings for the future.
antigoracle
2.6 / 5 (5) Feb 18, 2016
Congratulations gkam, on turning a Lab tech job, on an outsourced contract which lasted a few days, into a RESEARCH position for NASA. Your resume reads like a series of odd jobs rather than a career. I have to admire your talent to embellish your life without shame, especially since everyone else on this forum sees it for the deceit it truly is.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 18, 2016
I love it. Your attempt to denigrate the achievements of others tells us more about you than them.

Being Senior Energy Services Engineer for what was then the largest non-governmental power company on Earth is not an "odd job". Neither is teaching engineers for 20 years. I could probably teach even you.

Send me your email address, and I'll send you lots of stuff you will not want to admit is real.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 18, 2016
This thread regards grid-connected PV systems, and includes battery storage. Since I have a solar PV system and the EV to use it, and since I was a utility engineer, my opinion and experience are good data points.

What do you have?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Feb 18, 2016
This thread regards grid-connected PV systems, and includes battery storage. Since I have a solar PV system and the EV to use it, and since I was a utility engineer, my opinion and experience are good data points
We know that least one of there claims is a lie.

George was never an engineer.

So what are the chances that the other one is a lie as well?
antigoracle
3 / 5 (6) Feb 18, 2016
Tell us gkam, are your neighbours aware of your qualifications and did they seek your advice when they decided to invest in their PV systems?
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 18, 2016
"one of there claims is a lie"
------------------------------

Your English and attitude and apparent ignorance remind me of the Republican race for candidate. Real class.

Tell us how you got permission to display the Order of the British Empire. Stolen valor? Lying? Cheating?

Who ARE you, really, and why do you cower behind anonymity?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Feb 18, 2016
Being Senior Energy Services Engineer for what was then the largest non-governmental power company on Earth
If you do a little research you find out that PG&E only hires degreed and licenced pros for senior level positions. I posted the links here some time ago.

George is neither.

So we can only conclude that 1) george is lying or 2) george lied about his credentials when he got the job.

The latter seems feasible because george claims that while he was at PG&E he taught in-house staff and was also sent out to team-teach lunch-and-learn seminars.

Of course he describes them in much more flowery terms. He claims he taught 'thousands'.

AND he was only there for 6 years.

So if you consider the math it appears that george may have been working at most a year or 2 as a 'senior engr', whereupon they discovered his incompetence (the same incompetence he regularly shows here), and then shelved and eventually canned him.

A pretty safe assumption.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 18, 2016
anti, my neighbors are professionals, the one on the right has a technical MS, the one on the right has a technical PhD, and the one across the street has a law degree. The lawyer should have talked to me first.

otto should look up me and 7X24Exchange online. Most of my work was done before the growth of the internet. The rocket and experimental aircraft and electronic reconnaissance work was in the 1960's, the foundry and National Semiconductor were in the 1970's, and PG&E lasted for almost eight of the years in the 1980's, before I went out on my own for two decades.

I'll bet you really thought you had found another one of you here, didn't you? You thought you found another phony, but I turned out to be real, and that REALLY got to little otto.

How did the rest of you take doing the same job over and over for years, decades, a lifetime? Did you just settle into a comfortable work setup and go with the flow?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Feb 18, 2016
What do you have?
uh morals?
The lawyer should have talked to me first
-Well sure. Non-tech pros are the easiest fir you to bullshit aren't they?

"...psychopaths are good imposters. They have absolutely no hesitation about forging and brazenly using impressive credentials to adopt professional roles that bring prestige and power. They pick professions in which the requisite skills are easy to fake, the jargon is easy to learn, and the credentials are unlikely to be thoroughly checked."
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Feb 18, 2016
Your English and attitude and apparent ignorance remind me of the Republican race for candidate. Real class
George kamburoff still doesn't know how to recognize spellcheck errors. And after months and months and hundreds of postings he still hasn't figured out how to use the quote button.

And he still insists on telling 40yo lies and using 40yo hippy t shirt slogans as if anybody would still think they are clever.

Poignant.

"Those of us who have had experiences with psychopaths know that the language of the psychopath is two-dimensional. They are, as someone once said, as "deep as a thimble.""

-george thinks that the world is so simple to figure out because he is a genius.

But we all know it's because he's a simpleton.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 18, 2016
Send me your email address, "otto", and I will let you check my credentials.

Then, you can send us all yours. I want to see how you "earned" an OBE.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Feb 18, 2016
Send me your email address, "otto", and I will let you check my credentials
More lies. We've seen your credentials already and we know you lie.

Typical psychopathic ploy - wait awhile and repeat the lies as if people will get tired of repeating themselves.

Psychopaths never get tired of lying because they're easier than telling the truth aren't they? At least for simpletons they are.
Then, you can send us all yours. I want to see how you "earned" an OBE
Only a simpleton would think I did.

It certainly beats a free dinner down at the rotary though eh?
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 18, 2016
Come on, "otto", tell us how you got to display the OBE.

Who is the liar, "otto"?

It REALLY got to you when you found out I am real, unlike you and the other phonies hiding behind pseudonyms.

Tell us who you are, "otto", unless you cannot take responsibility for your own words.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (9) Feb 18, 2016
7X24Exchange online. Most of my work was done before the growth of the internet. The rocket and experimental aircraft and electronic reconnaissance work was in the 1960's, the foundry and National Semiconductor were in the 1970's, and PG&E lasted for almost eight of the years in the 1980's
So its 8 yrs now eh?

My my. All the dozens of jobs youve described here and you still think that

Manure (which you call volatile solids) is a major cause of pollution in the central valley

High energy alpha can't penetrate skin

There was an H2-initiated criticality in dirty molten Pu at fukushima which threw debris 130km even though conventional thermonukes can't throw it more than a few km... and didn't leave a crater because it was an airburst

Exhaust stack opacity is measured by a 100yo chart and not by 40yo CFR regs

-Etc etc etc etc ad infinitum
before I went out on my own for two decades
translation: no company would ever hire george again.

Damned HR.
antigoracle
3.4 / 5 (5) Feb 18, 2016
The lawyer should have talked to me first.

And, what would you have told him?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Feb 18, 2016
The lawyer should have talked to me first.

And, what would you have told him?
Ah that's easy

ImeImeIme bullshitbullshit ImeImeImeIme bullshitbullshitbullshit (wait for applause)

And also
7X24Exchange online. Most of my work was done before the growth of the internet. The rocket and experimental aircraft and electronic reconnaissance work was in the 1960's, the foundry and National Semiconductor were in the 1970's, and PG&E lasted for almost eight of the years in the 1980's


And also

"Say - have you seen my junior birdman of the month award?"

And also

"I rode my moped around the thailand countryside until I got sick of the killing and also got PTD. S.
https://youtu.be/zG62dirxRgc
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 18, 2016
Oh, yes, . . the frustration of the Neverwas.

Tell us what you have done. Unless you are embarrassed by it.
antigoracle
3 / 5 (6) Feb 19, 2016
The lawyer should have talked to me first.

And, what would you have told him?
Still waiting gskam.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 19, 2016
Still looking for a crack to exploit, huh?

Nope, let's talk about what you have done. Some others do not want to hear of my experiences, having none of their own, so let us talk about you and your experiences and education.
antigoracle
3.7 / 5 (6) Feb 19, 2016
Just confirming what everyone else knows. You are a pathological liar, fraud, psychopath and narcissist.
You keep berating everyone about what they are doing. Well, you made it appear like you had the best advice for that lawyer. So, share it with us, so that we could all be as good as you.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 19, 2016
Loser. You cannot defend your pathetic stance, so you go after others who have actually lived what they believe.

I did not berate you for what you are doing, because you have done nothing. Yeah, I understand your frustration of having to deal with someone here who is real for a change, but that's too bad. It must have gotten to you to find out I really did those things I said.

What did you do?
antigoracle
3.3 / 5 (7) Feb 19, 2016
There you go again, reaffirming what a liar and fraud you are.
Who sat while their neighbours around them invested in solar panels?
Let me guess until a month ago the sun did not shine on your house.
Imagine a lawyer chose to save the Earth long before a blowhard like you, and yet you have the gall to bray he should have talked to you first. I'm sure he knew how to spot a fraud like you from a mile away.
Tell us what "brilliant" advice you had for him?
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 19, 2016
I love it: A hater of the environment is taking me to task for not going green sooner? Well, gosh, the lawyer did his without any cost to him whatever. The PhD included his last year as part of a $400k renovation of his house. Mine cost much less, and the use of the EV is what really makes it pay off.

It must be a threat to you to see how this works so well. I suggest you separate your politics from science.
antigoracle
3 / 5 (6) Feb 19, 2016
Share your "brilliant" advice for the lawyer, perhaps someone else could use it.
I suggest you separate your lies from the truth.
WillieWard
2.3 / 5 (6) Feb 19, 2016
gskam = Baghdad Bob
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 19, 2016
Looking for something to critique? Critics never have real experience of their own, do they?

Yup, I would have suggested he not take the offer of them using his roof for a solar system, with them paying for everything, while offering him a guaranteed rate lower than the one he now has - for 20 years. He could have done better, in my opinion, using another funding method and not being locked into a 20-year contract for power.

Right now, we are saving about $200/month on the car and house, and it is still February. At this rate, we will be paid off in 5.125 years, and then get free power, essentially forever. And since my dad is still alive at 96, that will add up, month by month.
antigoracle
2.7 / 5 (7) Feb 19, 2016
So, you sitting there with all that sunshine just warming your roof was better than what he did?
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 19, 2016
You lost, goricle. Give it up.
WillieWard
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 19, 2016
and then get free power, essentially forever
lifetime batteries 3 years, solar panels 20 years no more than 30 years. Free power forever if you make an illegal connection to the power grid or have a small modular fission reactor in your basement.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 19, 2016
Okay, in 30 years I'll be 101, and will have to start paying. And my battery is guaranteed to hold the charge and to work at specified levels for 100,000 miles.

Keep striking out.
WillieWard
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 19, 2016
in 30 years I'll be 101
Take care, especially the health of your great-grandchildren: hexavalent chromium, selenium, gallium arsenide, brominated diphenylethers, polybrominated biphenyls, trihalomethane (THM).
http://digitalcom...t=gguelj
http://www.txses....end-life

gkam
1.8 / 5 (10) Feb 20, 2016
Staying on the grid is not just good economics, it is good citizenship. We are all in this mess together, and if we work together rather than against each other, we will be best off.

It comes down to liberal versus conservative, those who will work together for the common good, and those who cannot, from emotion.
antigoracle
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 20, 2016
Okay, in 30 years I'll be 101, and will have to start paying. And my battery is guaranteed to hold the charge and to work at specified levels for 100,000 miles.

Keep striking out.

30 more years of deceit, fraud, hypocrisy and narcissism.

Keep lying, psychopath.
gkam
1.8 / 5 (10) Feb 20, 2016
Not all folk can benefit from residential solar, especially in Europe, where single-family dwellings are less numerous, and the weather is often worse than here.

It is up to those of us living here in beneficial climates to do what has to be done. anti and otto cannot do it, unless they invest in community solar or in alternative energy companies.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (9) Feb 20, 2016
the frustration of the Neverwas
George Neverwas an engr, a war hero, nor an expert in anything. George Neverwas an undergrad degree earner, Neverdid earn the MS degree he claims he did.

George kamburoff no doubt Neverwas the honest, decent person he pretends to be.

Who are you really george?
Tell us what you have done. Unless you are embarrassed by it
Tell us what you have really done. How many jobs have you really had and how did you apparently get yourself fired from each and every one of them?

What are you really being treated for as a VA psych ward outpatient?

Why are so afraid to tell the truth about who you really are and what you really know?

Why is it you think you can get away with making up the most outrageous nonsense about these things, even after exposing yourself repeatedly, over and over, on a site full of genuine, educated and degreed pros?

Why aren't you embarrassed and ashamed by such idiot behavior?

Be honest - has it EVER worked??
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (9) Feb 20, 2016
Yup, I would have suggested
Just remember not to preface your 'advise' by telling him that you were an engr as it is a crime for an amateur to offer professional services.

Just tell him that 'you're better than an engr' like you often do here so he is aware of just what kind of idiot he is dealing with.
gkam
1.8 / 5 (10) Feb 20, 2016
The word is "advice", and your silly fixation just reflects on you and not on your victim. You anonymous snipers are the bane of the internet.
antigoracle
2.1 / 5 (7) Feb 20, 2016
It is up to those of us living here in beneficial climates to do what has to be done. anti and otto cannot do it, unless they invest in community solar or in alternative energy companies.

Or you could try to conserve. I have owned my car for just over 10 years and put 85000 km on it. What was the mileage on your Toyota?
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 20, 2016
The real question is "What did I do about it when I had the chance?"

No conservation? Did you miss out on the posts listing what I have done to my domicile? Shall I repeat it?
antigoracle
2.1 / 5 (7) Feb 20, 2016
So, conservation is NOT doing something?
Not putting it in the environment in the first place is NOT doing anything, right?
Give us the mileage on your Toyota, let's see how much you cared for the environment, you hypocrite.
KelDude
1 / 5 (1) Feb 21, 2016
What a load of crap! This is simply the existing mind set of the corporations threatened by the changing environment provided by these technologies. No different than the fossil fuel industries seeing their future going the way of the dodo bird with electric cars becoming the preferred choice. Efficient locally created power is the least expensive way to go. No more expensive High Voltage transmission lines, no more large rivers interrupted with large dams for power. No more power outages because of storms wrecking transmission lines. Need I go on? The future is local independent and personal power generation using increasingly more efficient solar power. The province of BC in Canada is currently pushing to install a third huge dam in northern BC to the tune of billions of dollars for the dam and the transmission lines etc. If they directed that money to the homeowner, they could power most homes in BC for half the price of the dam.
antigoracle
2 / 5 (4) Feb 21, 2016
Come on gskam. You brag about how real you are, in giving your name. So, give us your real mileage on your Toyota.
Eikka
5 / 5 (6) Feb 22, 2016

That is absolute nonsense. SHOW ME!


I've shown you before on numerous occasions, but you simply keep ignoring it.

http://institutef...k-curve/

Basically the point is that on a sunny day in the spring and fall, there's already enough solar generation capacity on the grid - even at 2013 levels - that the mid-day demand peak goes flat, being satisfied by the solar power output.

The increasing amount of solar power causes troubles for the grid operators because as a result the real demand peak occurs after 6 pm, and they have to quickly double their power output in a couple hours as the sun goes down and people turn on their lights and appliances (and electric car chargers).

So the situation is far more complex than you pretend it to be, gkam. For couple months a year, the solar supply matches the load, and for other months it doesn't, and for couple months the supply just isn't there. It's highly problematic.
Eikka
5 / 5 (6) Feb 22, 2016
Basically, in southern California, Arizona, Texas, the output from solar panels drops by 50% in the winter months when the highest heating load demands would occur. In the spring and early summer, the output from solar panels doesn't match the demand, then for couple months in the mid- and late summer it coincides with the air-conditioning demand, and then again as fall comes and the temperatures drop, the solar output is again out-of-sync with the demand pattern until it wanes for the winter.

For most of the year, 8-9 months, it contributes little to the grid, and/or it does so at the wrong times, increasing the difference between peak and low demand which forces the utilities to wind down baseload generation and install expensive load following powerplants that run on natural gas.

For example:
http://www.elp.co...ant.html

And these aren't even American gas-diesels. They're importing them from Finland.
Eikka
5 / 5 (5) Feb 22, 2016
If they directed that money to the homeowner, they could power most homes in BC for half the price of the dam.


But they would still need to build the dam, because there aren't enough batteries in the world to give everyone enough reserve to power them through the winter.

http://www.statca...-eng.htm
The typical Canadian household uses 106 GJ of energy per year, or 29,400 kWh/a

Storing enough home-made energy for the winter from solar power made in the summer would require a multi-megawatt-hour scale battery in every home, replaced every ten years or so, and that would cost far more than the homes themselves.

And it wouldn't be exactly "local independence" because you'd be completely reliant on imported lithium from Bolivia and the battery cells from China, which of course you could make yourself - at many times the cost.
Eikka
5 / 5 (4) Feb 22, 2016
Suppose we give 1 MWh of batteries per Canadian household, which is enough to store 12 days worth of power for the average household, which you can then use in the dead of the winter.

There are 12,5 million households in canada, so that would be 12.5 Terawatt-hours worth of batteries.

One of Elon Musk's gigafactories would take 357 years to manufacture all those batteries. Six of them could do it in 60 years, but it would take the entire world's lithium production output to pull off such a stunt. In reality you need 60 factories and 10 times the world lithium production - at least initially - because the batteries need to be rebuilt every ten years.

Just for Canada alone.

That's the scale of the problem. We have no real means to store energy in any appreciable amount, so we're stuck with burning natural gas and damming more rivers to pretend that the renewables economy is "working". Trouble is, half the rivers are already dammed and natural gas is a fossil fuel.
Eikka
5 / 5 (3) Feb 22, 2016
And that would also be forgetting that households actually use a minority of the energy in a society, just about one fifth of all energy goes to households. A similiar amount goes to transportation, and over half goes to industry and commerce, without which you wouldn't have a house to live in, so the actual problem is worse still.

But actually, we do have means to store relatively large amounts of energy, and that's solar-thermal energy stored underground, but for some odd reason that doesn't seem to interest the politicians who choose which technologies are supported and subsidized on public money.
Benni
3.2 / 5 (9) Feb 22, 2016
The increasing amount of solar power causes troubles for the grid operators because as a result the real demand peak occurs after 6 pm, and they have to quickly double their power output in a couple hours as the sun goes down and people turn on their lights and appliances (and electric car chargers).

So the situation is far more complex than you pretend it to be, gkam. For couple months a year, the solar supply matches the load, and for other months it doesn't, and for couple months the supply just isn't there. It's highly problematic.


You see "geek", if you'd just learn how to do Differential Equations you wouldn't have so many problems with your self modeled overly simplistic calculations. Oh, and one more thing "geek", get rid of that car & only ride bikes, you're not the green geek you imagine yourself to be until you become like greenies in the next valley over from me, that is until winter comes along & they beg their neighbors for rides to the grocery store.
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
Eikka, you did not show me the flattening of the peak curve for PG&E, but just did more babbling.

Now, you SHOW ME.
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
Eikka, when I was Senior Engineer for PG&E, I had the demand curves for all of our lines and industries, as well as individual customers, which I used every day to help folk avoid the peak. Your foray into wiki is not accurate.
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
Benni has yet to tell us how he used differential equations to do anything.

Why does he keep on with this one-note samba?
antigoracle
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 22, 2016
Eikka, you did not show me the flattening of the peak curve for PG&E, but just did more babbling.

Now, you SHOW ME.

gskam, did not show me the mileage on his Toyota, but just did more lying.
Now, you SHOW ME
gkam
1 / 5 (9) Feb 22, 2016
Goricle: No. I will not play your silly game.

I did my part in conserving and generating clean power, while you only gripe about others.

Show me your investments in clean power, since I have already shown you mine.
antigoracle
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 22, 2016
Goricle: No. I will not play your silly game.

Honesty is a game only to the Pathological Liar, psychopath and narcissist.

I told you the mileage on my car for the last 10 years, now tell us what was on your Toyota.
antigoracle
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 22, 2016
I did my part in conserving and generating clean power, while you only gripe about others.

Show me your investments in clean power, since I have already shown you mine.

After 71 years of consuming fossil fuels, you finally actually did something, about a month ago. Tell us, what gave you the right to gripe about others not saving the planet for years, before?
gkam
1 / 5 (9) Feb 22, 2016
Goricle, we got that car from my father, who bought it from Hertz, as a former rental car. The total mileage is irrelevant.

What is your game?

Tell us what YOU have done to advance clean power. Will it equal my investment in PV solar and an EV?
gkam
1 / 5 (9) Feb 22, 2016
This is hilarious. Goricle, who hates science and its revelations, is trying to find a way to criticize me for not installing PV sooner? You do it, toots, and see how long it takes.

Before I did that, I re-insulated my house, added strength and insulation to the shear walls, replaced the house furnace with one which takes so much heat out of the fuel, it condenses the water in the exhaust. My water heater is gas and instantaneous. My washer and dryer are the most efficient we could find.

You do those things first, before taking on PV or other major work. Your demands just show you do not understand the field.
antigoracle
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 22, 2016
I do not own a house nor a washer or dryer. You keep asking what I have done and the only way I can compare with you is in how much gasoline I burned. What's not hilarious is how you keep lying and hiding from the truth. Now, tell us how many miles you drove in the last 10 years in that Toyota?
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
"Now, tell us how many miles you drove in the last 10 years in that Toyota?"
--------------------------

Damn few, probably much less than you put on your stinker. I am retired and do not travel, having had to do that for a living giving technical seminars all over the country. Your little trick is going to backfire on you.

In case you did not notice, I have been concentrating on making the house most efficient, since I am living on a fixed income.
antigoracle
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 22, 2016
I'll make it even easier, tell us how many miles you drove in the last year?
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
Give it up, Goricle. I probably drove less than a thousand miles last year. You will have to go back to the 1980's when I commuted to work to get any mileage. EVs were not available then, and I was on the Advanced Transportation Working Group at the Electric Power Research Institute to develop EVs and other electric transportation, as part of my work in Technical Services for PG&E.
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
Oh, from 1980 to the end of 1987, I commuted to SF on BART, which is electric transportation.
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
Goricle does not yet understand this is my business and my interest. I am an early adopter because it is the right thing to do, and actually makes sense. After becoming first an Energy Services Engineer for PG&E in 1980, helping industries and schools save energy, I took it into my own life, as well. You will have to go after someone else.
antigoracle
3 / 5 (4) Feb 22, 2016
I probably drove less than a thousand miles last year

Wow!! Congratulations.
Now, tell us, how is it you are saving $150/month on gas with the EV?
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
My wife drives the kids and grandkids to school and back, and to wrestling practice, and other trips daily. It was her car which used the gas, and the one replaced by the EV.

My car just sits there as a backup, like fossil fuel powerplants.

Yeah, we had two cars. We had two different jobs. Since Reagan, that is what it takes to get by.
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
Goricle, my wife's car replaces two others in its transportation of kids and grandkids, being the most efficient and efficacious way available. All of our kids and their spouses have to work in the New World Order, so we consolidated it all into one very efficient system.
antigoracle
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 22, 2016
What vehicle did your wife drive?
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
Give it up.

Your need to seek weakness in others is an embarrassing revelation of personal inadequacies.
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
Has the Goricle bought battery systems yet? Why not? They allow him to buy cheap, and cleaner power at night, and store it for daytime use. Why is he not a good citizen, like those of us who put our money where it is needed?

Let's stop the personal griping.
antigoracle
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 22, 2016
Your need to seek weakness in others is an embarrassing revelation of personal inadequacies.

Spoken from your true experience.

Has the Goricle bought battery systems yet? Why not?

I rent. So, tell me "expert", how can I do this?

You boast that you have revealed your real name, yet refuse to say what vehicle your wife drove. What are you hiding, besides your pathological lies?
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
You keep on striking out.

Didn't you play an unfortunate knight in a Monty Python movie?
antigoracle
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 22, 2016
You keep lying.
Didn't you play a psychopath in real life.

What vehicle did your wife drive?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016

Or you could try to conserve. I have owned my car for just over 10 years and put 85000 km on it. What was the mileage on your Toyota?
George eats up considerable mileage driving to the VA psych ward.

He thinks he is saving lots of $$ because it's all downhill but his cognitive sickness makes him disregard the fact that it is all uphill on the way back.
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
"George eats up considerable mileage driving to the VA psych ward."
-----------------------------

You have Real Class, Goober, making fun of war veterans. It is a shame we had to defend cowards like you.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (8) Feb 23, 2016
You have Real Class, Goober, making fun of war veterans. It is a shame we had to defend cowards like you
I'm not making fun of vets I'm making fun of one single lying psychopath.

I am sure there are innumerable vets who would want to beat the shit out of you for the things you say here.
gkam
1 / 5 (7) Feb 23, 2016
Go to your version of a Vet Center, otto, and open that big mouth of yours.

Then write back to tell us what is in it.
gkam
1 / 5 (7) Feb 23, 2016
Meanwhile, I suppose we have battery storage of a kind, since we charge at night and save it for transportation use in the daytime. It is better for the system that way, as well, since we are putting all our PV generated stuff right into the local distribution system at peak, when it is most valuable, and trading it for what we use off-peak, kWh per kWh.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.4 / 5 (7) Feb 24, 2016
Go to your version of a Vet Center, otto, and open that big mouth of yours
Ahaha I can imagine what happened down at your local VFW when you showed up and started spouting your bullshit.

Got 'escorted' to the parking lot with a boot print on your ass I bet.

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