Austria's largest state goes 100% renewable

November 5, 2015
Austria's largest state says 100% of its electricity is now generated using renewable sources of energy
Austria's largest state says 100% of its electricity is now generated using renewable sources of energy

Austria's largest state said Thursday that 100 percent of its electricity is now generated using renewable sources of energy.

"We have invested heavily to boost and to expand renewables," said Erwin Proell, premier of 1.65-million-strong Lower Austria.

"Since 2002 we have invested 2.8 billion euros ($3.0 billion) in eco-electricity, from solar parks to renewing (hydroelectric) stations on the Danube," Proell told a news conference.

The state in northeastern Austria now gets 63 percent of its electricity from , 26 percent from wind energy, nine percent from biomass and two percent from solar.

In Austria as a whole, which voted against nuclear power in a 1978 referendum, 75 percent comes from renewables and the rest from .

Lower Austria has also created 38,000 "green jobs", Proell said, which the state aims to increase to 50,000 by 2030.

The announcement comes ahead of a gathering of world leaders in Paris in December aimed at reaching an ambitious global deal to tackle climate change.

Explore further: Green Austria on warpath against nuclear power in Europe

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117 comments

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NeutronicallyRepulsive
3.3 / 5 (7) Nov 05, 2015
Sure these are correct. 100% of what they generate is renewable energy. What is lost is that Austria is importing over 70% of energy from other countries. Mainly oil, natural gas and coal.
greenonions
4 / 5 (16) Nov 05, 2015
Neutron - do you have a source for your 70% figure? Quick Wiki articles says that they have to supplement a little during the winter. https://en.wikipe..._Austria Your number seems in conflict with the article's claim that Austria as a whole generates 75% of electricity from renewables. I think the contradiction may come from the distinction between the word electricity, and the word energy (which will include transportation, heating, and other energy users). This article is talking about electricity - and clearly 100% electricity generation from renewables - is pretty impressive.
aksdad
5 / 5 (4) Nov 05, 2015
Lower Austria is endowed with excellent hydroelectric resources. Most of their "renewable" energy (63%) is from dams. Yay for them. The rest of the world isn't so lucky.

Because of the intermittent nature of wind and solar, hydroelectric will probably dominate their energy production. Austria is also small, comparable in size and population to Washington state, which incidentally gets 58% of its electricity from dams. France, which is almost 8 times larger than Austria, gets 74% of its electricity from nuclear plants. That's dispatchable (not intermittent) power that throttles up or down to meet demand and isn't subject to the vagaries of wind and sunshine.

FYI, NeutronicallyRepulsive, you're probably looking at total energy consumption in Austria which also includes fuel for transportation. Austria imports lots of petroleum for transportation. When you look at just electricity consumption and production, Austria essentially produces all the electricity it consumes.
antigoracle
2.1 / 5 (17) Nov 05, 2015
Nice propaganda piece. Let's look at the real story. https://www.euron...tria.htm
rolf_dupont_hansen
3.9 / 5 (7) Nov 06, 2015
And hydroelectric dams are just so renewable:

http://www.iflsci...lmercury

Sorry for my sarcasm, but it should be healthy for the brain...
antialias_physorg
3.4 / 5 (8) Nov 06, 2015
There's a couple of interesting things to note about the austrian electricity prices (gleaned from here: http://oesterreic...eis.html ) :
- The tax on electricity is pretty high (about 36% of the total cost for the average consumer. For comparison in the UK the tax burden is about 5%).
- Nevertheless the cost of electricity is average when compared to countries with similar degree of industrialization/spending power.
- When it comes to electricity for companies the cost is actually at the very low end. Which makes Austria rather attractive for investments.
- Electricity prices have risen only moderately when compared to other countries in the EU
- Prices for electricity have risen slower than those for other forms of energy (and even slower than inflation!)

So it seems that it's working out for them well in the long run.
NeutronicallyRepulsive
5 / 5 (2) Nov 06, 2015
greenonions: I just remember that. But I found this source (it's actually dropping for few years so it's 63%). Just choose Featured indicators = Energy & Mining / Energy imports, net (% of energy use). But it was more than 70% few years ago. Still my point doesn't change.

http://data.world...ountries
Eikka
3.9 / 5 (11) Nov 06, 2015
This article is talking about electricity


Is it?

The title says: "Austria's largest state goes 100% renewable."

It's propaganda to claim someone's "gone renewable", and then talk only about electricity.

We can grant you to exclude cars and transportation, because there simply are no proper alternatives, but Austrians and Europeans in general use massive amounts of natural gas to heat and cook. It's easy to boast about having renewable electricity when you're using relatively little electricity in the first place.

In other words, it's the same banana republic argument where some country in sub-saharan Africa is "100% renewable" because they only have one hydroelectric dam and half of the population doesn't even have access to electricity. You should know, greenonions, because you've spread around lists of such countries as exemplars of renewable energy.

cantdrive85
1.6 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
Isn't that great, put another shrimp on the barbie mate...
greenonions
4.1 / 5 (9) Nov 06, 2015
Eikka
he title says: "Austria's largest state goes 100% renewable."


But the first line of the article says.

"Austria's largest state said Thursday that 100 percent of its electricity is now generated using renewable sources of energy." So it is not propaganda.
You should know, greenonions, because you've spread around lists of such countries as exemplars of renewable energy.


And the examples I have given are valid examples of the early stages of the transition to alternative energy systems. Sorry that you cannot see progress when it is happening. We are on the first rung of a long ladder - but that does not invalidate the progress. A more interesting question for me - is regarding your need to discourage progress at every turn.
Eikka
4.1 / 5 (9) Nov 06, 2015
Austria essentially produces all the electricity it consumes.


Except in dry years. The output of hydroelectricity varies quite a lot year-to-year, in Austria as well as in the US:

http://www.eia.go...?id=2650

On some years you may get half the normal output, which also limits the ability to buffer any intermittent renewables, which prevents you from building more of that sort.

So it is not propaganda.


The title and the article are in contradiction, so it IS propaganda. It's like you running around yelling lies, and only when someone asks do you reveal that you weren't telling the truth. Most people just skim by, and only ever see or hear the lie, which is the whole point of propaganda articles like this.
Eikka
3.8 / 5 (10) Nov 06, 2015
And the examples I have given are valid examples of the early stages of the transition to alternative energy systems.


No they're not. They're largely examples of countries that have failed to build a working energy system in the first place, renewable or otherwise.

Or, countries so small in population and feeble in industrial power that they can be served by their single hydroelectric dam. Like Tibet, whose main export is probably "happiness".

We are on the first rung of a long ladder


If you want to make that analogy - we're on a step-stool and pretending that it's a ladder. Our renewable technologies aren't sufficiently scalable at this point to accomplish anything, yet we pretend and keep on pouring public money at building them because it's such a good business to the few that own them, and the whole show is running on a propaganda that it's actually working.
NeutronicallyRepulsive
2.3 / 5 (6) Nov 06, 2015
greenonions: Just to clarify. I'm not saying they're not 100% generating electricity from renewable sources. I'm saying 100% (it's not 100% because I would bet, that more than one gas generator is in the country, no doubt) of what they generate is just 37% (now that I updated percentage in my brain :) of what they consume. This might not be apparent from the article. It gives (unintentional, I believe) impression that one part of the country is 100% covering their energy use from renewables. That 100% can be argued, but that was not my point. End of clarification ;)
greenonions
4 / 5 (8) Nov 06, 2015
Neutron
Still my point doesn't change.
Your point being (correct me if I am wrong) - that due to a lack of domestic reserves, Austria has to import large quantities of fossil fuels, to power it's transportation, and heating sectors. So would this not be a point in favor of developing renewable power - that can be seen as a domestic supply? If you look at Antigoracles 2007 article - you see that just 8 years ago, a much higher proportion of Austria's power came from thermal plants. Today we read that 75% comes from renewables - and there are plans on the table to continue the shift over to renewables. This is good news - yes?
Eikka
4.1 / 5 (9) Nov 06, 2015
A more interesting question for me - is regarding your need to discourage progress at every turn.


You mean the strawman you've tied together?

The only thing that is actually discouraging progress is the misplacement of public funds away from research and development and into building useless and unsustainable "renewables" that simply raise the cost of production and living for everyone else.

So would this not be a point in favor of developing renewable power - that can be seen as a domestic supply?


That depends on what you mean by "developing".

Fossil fuels, oil and gas for the heating sector are incredibly cheap, at around 1-2 cents per kWh. Renewables simply can't compete in price, and using them for such purposes would put everyone's heating bills through the roof, not to mention overhauling much of the system to use storage boilers because the power is still intermittent.
NeutronicallyRepulsive
2.6 / 5 (5) Nov 06, 2015
greenonions: I'm not saying it's not good news. They're planning on being selfsuficient (renewables) by 2050. But I was just pointing out the misconception that might occur about being 100% now.
greenonions
3.9 / 5 (7) Nov 06, 2015
Eikka
They're largely examples of countries that have failed to build a working energy system in the first place
Wow - Eikka - sorry to be blunt - but your really excel yet again in printing rubbish. This applies to Denmark, or Germany, or Portugal, or Scotland? Scotland is currently producing 50% of it's electricity from renewables, and is on track to 100% by 2020. http://thinkprogr...ewables/ I know - I know - you can dig down and find reasons why this country, or that country are exceptions. One of the beauties of renewables, is that each region will have it's own unique mix. Why not sit back, and see these examples as trail blazers. Any you are wrong - these technologies are scalable - http://www.altern...e-energy
greenonions
3.9 / 5 (7) Nov 06, 2015
Eikka
Fossil fuels, oil and gas for the heating sector are incredibly cheap, at around 1-2 cents per kWh.
Please provide a source for this assertion. I heat my home with methane. My bills are very low, but not close to that. I average $70 (u.s.) per month for heating - that includes water heating. No one here heats with oil - it is far too expensive.
Eikka
4.1 / 5 (9) Nov 06, 2015
Wow - Eikka - sorry to be blunt - but your really excel yet again in printing rubbish. This applies to Denmark, or Germany, or Portugal, or Scotland?


No, because those aren't on the lists of "100% renewable countries" you've peddled, which is what we were talking about.

Stop shifting the goalposts and mispresenting other people's points.
Eikka
4.1 / 5 (9) Nov 06, 2015
Please provide a source for this assertion. I heat my home with methane. My bills are very low, but not close to that. I average $70 (u.s.) per month for heating - that includes water heating. No one here heats with oil - it is far too expensive.


Here's some retail delivery prices:
http://www.statis...untries/

US - 2.5 cents (2.3 euro-cents)
Austria - 4.75 cents (4.37 euro-cents)

Meanwhile the electricity retail price in Austria was 10.4 cents per kWh, so no wonder everyone cooks and heats with gas.

However, retail prices are not the same thing as gas prices in general. Large utilities and industries buy gas and oil at cheaper prices straight from the pipelines, and use them to run district heating facilities, which is very popular in Europe. Oftentimes they can mix inputs, using coal, oil, gas, biomass, or whatever happens to be available the cheapest.

greenonions
3.7 / 5 (6) Nov 06, 2015
Eikka
No, because those aren't on the lists of "100% renewable countries" you've peddled,


The only 2 countries that I can recall reporting as providing 100% of their electricity from renewables (for a limited time period) - are Denmark, and Costa Rica. These would be examples of the kind of articles I would present.- http://www.thegua...y-demand - http://www.greent...hallenge
You are the one who is moving the goal posts.
Eikka
4.1 / 5 (9) Nov 06, 2015
Coal supplies are arranged a year ahead, so the supply prices for 2015 were settled in 2014 at between $79 - $83 per metric ton. Coal comes in at about 25 MJ/kg so the price of coal in Europe this year has been approximately $1.1 cents per kWh.

http://www.bloomb...o-months

You are the one who is moving the goal posts.


Keep wiggling. Nobody was talking about which countries have reported anything recently.

These would be examples of the kind of articles I would present.


What you actually have posted and presented before, is a wikipedia list of countries. This list:

https://en.wikipe..._sources

You were saying "look at these pioneering nations", completely un-ironicaly without realizing that the list consists mostly of places like Lesotho, Albania, Ethiopia and Bhutan.
greenonions
4 / 5 (8) Nov 06, 2015
Eikka.
Here's some retail delivery prices:


This graph was provided in response to asking for support for your assertion that
Fossil fuels, oil and gas for the heating sector are incredibly cheap, at around 1-2 cents per kWh.


YOUR graph is only talking about Methane - not oil. YOUR graph indicates gas prices ranging from 2.5 cents to 11.33 cents (not 1 - 2 cents as you stated). This does not make your claim of 'incredibly cheap' very credible. Wind and solar costs are certainly approaching this range - depending on region.
Eikka
4 / 5 (12) Nov 06, 2015
Any you are wrong - these technologies are scalable - http://www.altern...e-energy


I wish I had your optimism. That article just completely disregards the issue that renewable energy cannot actually be manufactured using renewable energy with any means we have available right now.

It's simply throwing around numbers, like "35% solar, 51% wind" without taking any account of the economic realities behind such prospects - i.e. how much is it going to cost and what do you have to do to drum up all that money (Hint: it involves spending energy)

This does not make your claim of 'incredibly cheap' very credible.


Yes it does, since those are retail prices with supply and delivery costs, profit, etc. baked in. You can't sell gas at 2.5 cents if it costs you 2.5 cents to buy from the oil company.

YOUR graph is only talking about Methane - not oil.


Hold your horses, we'll get to that. I already gave you gas retail prices and bulk coal prices.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
Eikka, you are correct in saving Europe from alternative and renewable energy, . . it only leads to better lives.
Eikka
4 / 5 (12) Nov 06, 2015
Wind and solar costs are certainly approaching this range - depending on region.


There's absolutely no sense in talking about approaching any range while the actual and ongoing public subsidies to these forms of energy are still 10-20-30 whatever cents per kWh. That's just propaganda.

If they work, why don't we lift the subsidies and let them work? Oh no, but that would mean the end of price fixing and they'd have to compete with one another, solar panel against solar panel, during the midday overproduction peak when the prices drop.

Eikka, you are correct in saving Europe from alternative and renewable energy, . . it only leads to better lives.


Don't worry, you too can soon pay 25 cents per kWh for electricity just like they do in Germany. Then you can buy a gas powered generator and turn your whole house to run on natural gas, like you already do for heating and hot water.
Eikka
4 / 5 (12) Nov 06, 2015
Current oil prices:

http://www.exchan...EUR.html

41.48 EUR a barrel. A barrel equivalent is 1.7 MWh so that's 2.4 cents per kWh

Of course, crude oil is not directly heating oil:

http://heatingoil...rice.php

Heating oil is £33.2 (46.52EUR) including VAT at 1000 liter quantities, and has an energy density of 10.6 kWh per liter, so that makes it 0.44 cents per kWh. Less than a cent.

The difference in prices is because crude oil is more valuable, as it's processed into other chemicals, whereas heating oil is made from the distilling leftovers and byproducts and when there's more demand for lets say gasoline, it makes an oversupply of diesel and heating oil.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
You cannot compare kWh to Btu. Electricity is a high quality fuel, and should not be wasted on low quality heat.

And it is a good thing they did not use the GE Mark I BWR for electricity:

"Japan Times (Hotline to Nagatacho — Brian Victoria, Kyoto), Nov 4, 2015: [F]ormer Japanese ambassador to Switzerland, Mitsuhei Murata,… noted the danger still posed by large numbers of spent fuel rods suspended in spent fuel pools in reactors … Murata's gravest concern is a number of troubling indications of recurring criticality [ i.e. uncontrolled nuclear chain reactions] in one or more of the reactors at Fukushima No. 1.

For example, he notes that in December 2014, both radioactive iodine-131 and tellurium-132 were reported as having been detected in Takasaki city, Gunma Prefecture [~130 miles SW of Fukushima Daiichi]. Given the short half-lives of these radioactive particles, their presence could not be the result of the original meltdowns at Fukushima.
Eikka
4 / 5 (12) Nov 06, 2015
You cannot compare kWh to Btu.


Yes I can. They're the same thing, just like seconds are to minutes - only the magnitude changes.

Electricity is a high quality fuel, and should not be wasted on low quality heat.


That is true, but only because electricity is more expensive than plain fossil fuels. Besides, we need to displace fossil fuels in heating anyways, and the only way you can do so with these renewable energies we have is by turning high-value, even more highly subsidized, electricity into low-value heat.

That turns the low-value heat into a high-price commodity, which you can't afford, which is why you too personally are still running your house on natural gas instead of renewable energy.

That's why the progress of the current renewable technology invariably stops at the point where we'd have to start heating our homes with it. It becomes too expensive.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
That is true, but only because electricity is more expensive than plain fossil fuels."
----------------------------------------

No,it is not because of the price, but the potential uses. Do you understand what quality means? It means you can do damn near anything with it. Want 10,000 degree temperatures? The ability to signal? The ability to power prime movers? To light our way? To create magnetism? To be transported for miles cheaply?

Cling to your coal as long as you can. The end is in sight.
Uncle Ira
4.5 / 5 (16) Nov 06, 2015
You cannot compare kWh to Btu.


Non Cher. Maybe you can not. But I can. 1 kWh = 3 412.14163 Btu. I learn that being the real engineer on a towboat. Maybe you should have studied up on that in your pretend engineer jobs.

Electricity is a high quality fuel, and should not be wasted on low quality heat.


Fuel is fuel. And you need to use something make the heat when it you need it. So if you are not going to waste your high quality electricity, what you going to use instead? Windmills? Cow poo? The proton engines you never got around to making?
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
"Fuel is fuel. And you need to use something make the heat when it you need it. "
-----------------------------------

No, Ira, you are now just advertising your ignorance of energy. Read the above post of mine. I want to see you use your coal to make my motor turn. Electricity is the most high quality and versatile fuel we have and to waste it for heat is like running your Ferrari for the waste heat of the motor.

And remember this every time you cut and paste:

http://www.thegua...n-google

That's why you are on a tow boat.
Eikka
4.2 / 5 (10) Nov 06, 2015
Now, there is a very very good case for solar energy in household heating, because vacuum tube heat collectors on roofs happen to be very effective even at high northern latitudes. Most of the sun's radiation is heat, and the heat collectors are close to 100% efficient at trapping it.

A home that has heat collectors on the roof and a large storage boiler in the basement may not need any other heating through the winter. There are combi-units which can operate on multiple fuels to supplement the heat.

This is the kind of technology we should be subsidizing instead - because it's highly effective - but we aren't because all the money is going to whomever lobbies the most - which is the wind turbine and solar panel industry.

gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
"This is the kind of technology we should be subsidizing instead - because it's highly effective - but we aren't because all the money is going to whomever lobbies the most - which is the wind turbine and solar panel industry."
--------------------------------------------

This is not new, but an outgrowth of the 1980's. You can find earth-sheltered homes, domes, and all kinds of homes taking advantage of passive solar and some active as well. A Trombe Wall is not expensive, nor are the other design features built into the homes.

There are many techniques for this kind of design, and almost all are site-specific.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
So has Austria stopped importing energy since 2009?

"In mid-2009, as a result of Verbund's acquisition of 13 run-of-river plants on the river Inn in Bavaria, Germany, power generation rose by 7%; together, the Bavarian Inn power plants have a peak capacity of 312 megawatt and an annual generation of 1.85 billion kW hours..."

-The article implies that austria is meeting all of its own energy needs. But in order to do this they would have to expand its domestic production significantly.

Could they do this with renewables?
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (10) Nov 06, 2015
No,it is not because of the price, but the potential uses. Do you understand what quality means? It means you can do damn near anything with it.


That's entirely missing the point.

Electricity is the most high quality and versatile fuel we have


Can you put electricity in a canister, keep it in your shed for six months, and then use it to warm your house six months later when it's winter time?

and to waste it for heat is like running your Ferrari for the waste heat of the motor.

We would heat our homes with Ferraris if that was the only alternative to freezing to death.

Same thing here. We can't keep burning fossil fuels for heat, and our renewable sources give us electricity instead, so we have to turn electricity into heat. That means we have to figure out how to make the electricity much much cheaper.

Uncle Ira
4.4 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
No, Ira, you are now just advertising your ignorance of energy


I am not the one who didn't know that kWh and btus were two ways of saying the exact same thing.

Read the above post of mine.


I did, and now you wish I didn't because saying,,,

You cannot compare kWh to Btu.


,,,, sure didn't sound much like the Senior Engineer from the power company would say.

I want to see you use your coal to make my motor turn.


Only you are so stupid to say that knowing about the "Three-Minute-Take-It-Back-Rule"

Electricity is the most high quality and versatile fuel we have and to waste it for heat is like running your Ferrari for the waste heat of the motor.


Fuel is fuel Skippy. You use what you got where you need it. What you are doing, and where you doing it, and the costs is how you decide what fuel you use.

That's why you are on a tow boat.


So? It's a good job, and pays good too. You couldn't do it, but so about that too?
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
" We can't keep burning fossil fuels for heat, and our renewable sources give us electricity instead, so we have to turn electricity into heat."
--------------------------------------------

Didn't we just discuss solar-heated homes? Seen the site of the Rocky Mountain Institute? Look it up.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (14) Nov 06, 2015
Look it up
YOU look it up and post a link you lazy bastard. Until then we can consider your post bullshit.

Arent they usually?
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (10) Nov 06, 2015
This is not new, but an outgrowth of the 1980's.


No. It has nothing to do with the hippies "Earthships" with walls made out of recycled bottles. This is more an outgrowth of aerospace engineering, with heatpipes instead of water in the tubes to prevent them boiling over:

I'm talking about rows and rows of high-vacuum collector tubes arranged in panels:

https://upload.wi...niki.jpg

https://upload.wi...gram.jpg
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
You are right, I do not have the training or experience to man a tow boat. I do not know the river currents, the capabilities of the boat, or the characteristics of the job.

Now, why do you assume you can read a few sentences, cut and paste them, and think you are saying something intelligent? You have no idea of the continuously-changing sine waves, nor their electric and magnetic field effects, not the speed at which disturbances travel in power lines. You are not conversant with which loads continue to inject power back into the lines on shutdown, or how much inrush current is required for reactive loads.

The effects of harmonics injected by loads is probably not in your experience, so why would you assume you can understand what wiki means?
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (9) Nov 06, 2015
Didn't we just discuss solar-heated homes? Seen the site of the Rocky Mountain Institute? Look it up.


Why don't you provide the link?

Solar heated homes work well, but they don't work all the time, and they don't work in the cities where there's more homes per square meter than square meters for solar heat collectors, so something else must be used.

Now, why do you assume you can read a few sentences, cut and paste them, and think you are saying something intelligent?


Because the intelligence is in what is being said, and not who is saying it.

You on the other hand seem to think the complete opposite: that you can spout whatever trash and it becomes intelligent just because its you saying it.

You have no idea of the continuously-changing sine waves, nor th...


And now you're rambling over something completely different as if you just had a stroke - except stroke patients can rarely type coherently.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Nov 06, 2015
Eikka, I still have the heat pipe in my desk from the very early 1980's. The homes I described were designed in the 1970's, and built through the 1980's, without sophisticated controls or materials.

Hang on for a minute, and I will see if I have a few books within reach. Lots of stuff in this office.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
Here is one. RMI, not the early books. Not hard to find, for wiki warriors.

http://eere.build...ectID=34

This is the first one, and not one of the early types I mentioned, but more advanced. It is to test methods and materials, and the concepts. A new headquarters in being built elsewhere.
Uncle Ira
4.4 / 5 (14) Nov 06, 2015
Now, why do you assume you can read a few sentences, cut and paste them, and think you are saying something intelligent?


Because what I wrote is correct. What you wrote was wrong.

You have no idea of the continuously-changing sine waves, nor their electric and magnetic field effects, not the speed at which disturbances travel in power lines.


You are very wrong about that Cher.

You are not conversant with which loads continue to inject power back into the lines on shutdown, or how much inrush current is required for reactive loads.


Hooyeei, you are winning the trifecta with that one. Wrong again.

The effects of harmonics injected by loads is probably not in your experience, so why would you assume you can understand what wiki means?


You hope I don't but in fact I do know these things Cher.

I also know all that stuff you wrote is you hoping to get away from,

You cannot compare kWh to Btu.


Nice try.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Nov 06, 2015
Most of my old ones are dispersed, but I found "30 Energy Efficient Homes You Can Build", Other Homes and Garbage", a good reference, and others regarding the Integral Urban House in Berkeley and the permaculture work in Massachusetts. I have some of Ken Kern's books, but I do not recommend them, because of his lack of structural engineering.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (10) Nov 06, 2015
I want to see you use your coal to make my motor turn.


Quite easy.

Back at the turn of the 20th century, practically everything was gas, coal, kerosene, or whatever whale-oil you had - powered. Gas lighting, gas refridgeration, gas heating. You could very well have a gas powered radio set, with a thermoelectric pair to make the power.

Even your desk fan would have a small stirling motor, and you'd light a kerosene burner under it.

https://images.du...&f=1

The KY-KO non-electric fan

Driven by kerosine or gas. Noiseless and odourless. Produces strong cool breeze at low cost, burns one pint in ten hours.


Eikka
4.6 / 5 (10) Nov 06, 2015
Oh, and you made gas out of the coal. Gasworks, town gas, huge ovens where water was sprayed over burning coals, which caused a chemical reaction that turned it into methane, carbon monoxide and hydrogen, which was then piped through into homes.

Here is one. RMI, not the early books. Not hard to find, for wiki warriors.

http://eere.build...ectID=34


I don't know how that is relevant to the topic in any way. I'm talking about the modern collectors which can be fitted on any roof on any building - not about buildings that are constructed specifically for capturing solar energy.

The modern collectors are not site specific stuff. If you have any roof that gets sun, you can put one up and connect it to your storage boiler.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (10) Nov 06, 2015
Basically, you get the same heating energy out of 1 square foot of solar thermal collectors as you get from 5 sq-ft of photovoltaic panels, and at a lower cost.

So why aren't we paying people to put these things on their roofs?

Seriously. Why aren't we? Why do we pay for the PV panel, but not for something that would make five times the energy, in a form that we use many times more than electricity?

To me this is completely ridiculous and simply points out the political and corrupted nature of energy subsidies - it's not about displacing CO2 or fossil fuels, it's about making Warren Buffet more millions.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015

You are not conversant with which loads continue to inject power back into the lines on shutdown, or how much inrush current is required for reactive loads.
You are not conversant with which loads continue to inject power back into the lines on shutdown, or how much inrush current is required for reactive loads.

"Hooyeei, you are winning the trifecta with that one. Wrong again."

Okay, Ira is going to tell us what loads inject power back into the line and for how long when the power goes out, and why it does so.

Then, he can tell us how we find it.

Eikka, the value and use of the electricity produced by the PV is far greater than the low-grade heat from the roofs.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (9) Nov 06, 2015
Btw. the production of town gas from coal was the reason why in old movies and fiction you see people commit suicide by sticking their heads in an oven. These days, you'd just get a headache from breathing methane. You'd have to take real effort to seal yourself in, because the only way you'd die is by asphyxiation.

Back then you'd die because of CO poisoning.

Eikka, the value and use of the electricity produced by the PV is far greater than the low-grade heat from the roofs.


That depends entirely on what you need it for.

Most of our energy needs as societies revolve around producing and using heat, and most of that goes towards heating houses and factories, farms, warehouses... etc.

That's the point. Renewable energy is so concentrated around generating electricity, but electricity is not the whole problem. Some state in Austria may be producing 100% their electricity with renewable power, but they are producing nearly 0% of their heat with it.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (9) Nov 06, 2015
use of the electricity produced by the PV is far greater than the low-grade heat from the roofs.


A typical home in California where you live uses approximately 16,000 kWh of energy per year, of which 3,000 kWh is electricity and 13,000 kWh is low grade heat - natural gas mostly. Elsewhere in the world, especially in the north the figures rise to 18,000 - 25,000 kWh where again the vast majority of energy used is heat.

Heat is in MUCH greater demand than electricity, but because heat is being generated by very cheap fossil fuels it doesn't show up as much in your monthly bill. Heat from fossil fuels is so cheap that most people don't even think about how much they're using.

Uncle Ira
4.4 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
Okay, Ira is going to tell us what loads inject power back into the line and for how long when the power goes out, and why it does so.


Why is Ira-Skippy going to do that? It's too much trouble to try to on the interweb comment page, and it is not that important to me. See Cher, this is what it is,,,, what you think is not important to me. You are some silly couyon on the interweb that has non effect on my life.

Then, he can tell us how we find it.


That part you got right. He can tell you. But that don't mean he will go to all the trouble to do it because it really is not important what glam-Skippy thinks. Not important to Ira-Skippy I mean, it is really important to the glam-Skippy.

Eikka, the value and use of the electricity produced by the PV is far greater than the low-grade heat from the roofs.


Hooyeei. Now there is some really smart stuffs only a Senior Engineer at the power company would say.(And you wonder why anyone would doubt you.)
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (12) Nov 06, 2015
You have no idea of the continuously-changing sine waves...
And now you're rambling over something completely different as if you just had a stroke
"But there is something else about the speech of psychopaths that is equally puzzling: their frequent use of contradictory and logically inconsistent statements that usually escape detection...

"the researchers noted was that psychopaths seem to have trouble monitoring their own speech. What is more, they often put things together in strange ways...

"Psychopaths are notorious for not answering the questions asked them. They will answer something else, or in such a way that the direct question is never addressed. They also phrase things so that some parts of their narratives are difficult to understand. This is not careless speech, of which everyone is guilty at times, but an ongoing indication of the underlying condition in which the organization of mental activity suggests something is wrong..."
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (11) Nov 06, 2015
Senior Engineer at the power company


Senior engineers are licensed in California btw.
Legal requirement - otherwise you aren't authorized to actually make anything that would see public use, sold to the public, or sign and certify products and designs etc.

http://www.bpelsg...up.shtml

Can't find "Kamburoff" in a list of licensed civil engineers up to 1981, and no records for any Kamburoff in a search query for professional engineers and land surveyors either.

You maybe a senior employee in a company, but you aren't a practicing or even a retired senior engineer, or a consulting engineer of any kind without one. Retired licensed engineers are still listed.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (10) Nov 06, 2015
http://www.upward...ineer-pe

Being a PE offers you the full range of professional practice in California, including being able to bid for contracts and sell engineering and design services in the state.


To sell yourself as a freelance engineer, a consulting engineer, an engineering teacher etc. in California rather than just work for some company as an underling, you do need to be licensed, and that means your name would appear in a public list of names of people who are or were licensed to do that job.

If you never got your PE license and still go around offering services, you might be fined heavily.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
Eikka, you make the jumps in logic of a sophomore, one with a little knowledge and no depth.

Those are titles, job responsibilities. I chose to not get a PE because I did not work in only one field. Integrated Circuit Test Engineer was a job title, and required education and experience and performance. The same with Plant Engineer of H.C. Macaulay Foundry. The same for being Senior Energy Services Engineer in Technical Services for PG&E. The same for my work as Research Engineer. They do not look for words on a degree, they look for experience and proven ability.

What do you do, if you do not understand job responsibilities? Work in the library?
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (11) Nov 06, 2015
They do not look for words on a degree, they look for experience and proven ability.


And that's what the PE license is - a proof of experience and ability - and the legal proof that you are permitted to take responsibility for the stuff you do - kinda like how doctors need a medical license so they don't let just any old quack in the office, while the doctor's secretary doesn't need one.

I chose to not get a PE because I did not work in only one field


You get one to get promoted to positions of responsibility where it is legally required. The only way you get to choose not to have one is if you never work in such a position.

gkam
1.3 / 5 (14) Nov 06, 2015
Eikka, I did not design for others for a living. Since you are failing at debate, you try to attack me. Pitiful.

You DO work in a library, don't you? Like otto, you seem to have no knowledge of how the world works, only what you can read somewhere. Here's something to read:

http://www.thegua...n-google
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (10) Nov 06, 2015
Eikka, you make the jumps in logic of a sophomore, one with a little knowledge and no depth.


Also, everything I've said here can be read from the Board for Professional Engineers website. The law is laid out for everyone to read.

Eikka, I did not design for others for a living.


Consulting and teaching also fall under the categories that require a PE.

Since you are failing at debate, you try to attack me. Pitiful.


You're the one who keeps inserting your person into every topic.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (14) Nov 06, 2015
Do none of you understand how professionals work together? If I needed someone to design a fixture or something else I needed, I would tell the PE I would hire for the job, as I took responsibility for the project. In some jobs I had a mechanical engineer working directly for me. I used them.

What did you do? I must have missed that.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (11) Nov 06, 2015
I would tell the PE I would hire for the job, as I took responsibility for the project.


This isn't about the real professionals, but about you claiming to be ten different sorts of engineers, senior, consultant, etc. which you couldn't have been because some of those positions and titles do require legal documentation to exist, and none exist in your name.

This discussion has gone off topic at this point anyways, as usual, because you got your claims blown out of the water.

Or would you like to repeat how kWh is not the same as BTU, or how heat is not in more demand than electricity, or how hippie earthships have anything to do with modern solar heat collector tubes.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
"Consulting and teaching also fall under the categories that require a PE. "
----------------------------------

Nope. I taught lots of folk who had PE certs. My field was Power Quality then, and I consulted to utilities nationwide, as well as writing and delivering most of the EPRI Course for the electric power industry.

I am really sorry, . . I promise to not do it again.

Oh, . . and I had the most fun troubleshooting. But you will not want to hear about that.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (14) Nov 06, 2015
I chose to not get a PE because
...because you couldnt? Your only proof of any education whatsoever was the MS stuff you sent to ira which was for 'life experiences', not for environmental mgt as you claimed.

IOW you provided your own proof that you lied.

No coursework was reqd for your MS, correct? In addition you apparently have no undergrad degree, no formal EIT-level experience, and no PE.

Eikka may not know that civil engrs in this country concentrate in things like the design and construction of public works, such as dams, bridges, roads and other large infrastructure projects. Theyre not structural engrs and they dont do electrical design.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
writing and delivering most of the EPRI Course for the electric power industry
MOST of the -courses?- for the entire INDUSTRY? Why would the INDUSTRY let an uneducated AMATEUR like yourself write coursework for them?

What exactly makes you think anyone here would fall for such insane BULLSHIT as this?

"But there is something else about the speech of psychopaths that is equally puzzling: their frequent use of contradictory and logically inconsistent statements..."
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (11) Nov 06, 2015
Nope. I taught lots of folk who had PE certs.


I think you're confusing holding a business seminar with teaching, which is like confusing a phys-org article for a scientific publification.

As for the PE itself:

Only a licensed engineer can submit plans and drawings, and be in charge of work in the private sector.

If you do not have a PE license, you cannot officially call yourself an engineer -- and your company cannot identify you as an engineer -- in official documents, such as business cards, letterheads and resumes.


Eikka may not know that civil engrs...


I was simply shooting with a wide bore, because of how many different occupations gkam has claimed.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (14) Nov 06, 2015
Do none of you understand how professionals work together?
Well yes because many of us are pros with licences.
If I needed someone to design a fixture or something else I needed, I would tell the PE I would hire for the job as I took responsibility for the project. In some jobs I had a mechanical engineer working directly for me. I used them
This does not in any way make you an engr. And no, you did not take responsibility for their work. Companies hire PEs so that THEY can be legally responsible for their work.

You selected from a preferred consultant list or were told who to hire by your supervisors. You kept track of hours charged to accounts, and billing for work done per the budget.

You may have some responsibility for coordinating meetings and distributing info.

Youre either lying or you lived in a dreamworld where you were convinced that you were something that you werent.

That would explain why you apparently lost so many jobs after only a few months.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (11) Nov 06, 2015
And holding a business seminar without a PE is basically equivalent to an assistant holding a lecture in place of the professor - they don't need to be qualified as long as the material itself is pre-approved, and, essentially pre-canned. The company, or the person who signed the material off takes responsibility for the contents.

The person sitting at the overhead projector is just the presenter of what is typically business-to-business advertising masquerading as a training session, such as "Here's how to measure the power factor using our new multi-moulinex-2000 meter!"

If George Kamburoff had gone around holding seminars and lectures on his own, selling engineering services, posing to be a consulting engineer, or an engineer of any kind - without a PE he would be breaking the law in California.

Yet this is what kamburoff.com says

Power quality, energy management services, training and troubleshooting are specialties of George Kamburoff Consulting.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (11) Nov 06, 2015
So basically, a job title like "a Senior Energy Services Engineer in Technical Services" for gkam is either unoffical, made up, or illegal in California because he doesn't have a PE.

Which makes one wonder whether he wrote the EPRI documentations at all, or whether he was just "in the team", doing proofreading and other basic authoring stuff under supervision, and then went to present it in seminars.

I can certainly see how a person could take that and "steal the show", basically copying the materials and running solo for a number of years, pretending to be an engineering consultant to various other companies who don't necessarily ask for the credentials because someone already saw the original EPRI lecture and simply assumed he's qualified.

gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
For over 33,000 people, professionals in that field, and I troubleshot problems for the industrial customers of utilities, paid by the power company involved, and trained their engineers in Power Quality and how to think.

You are hung up on credentials because that is all you know: Nameplate. You are why I got no jobs through HR departments, but was hired directly by my supervisor, bypassing HR in every instance. In many technical fields, they have specific things they are looking for, and going through HR is wasted time.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
To see you making up this stuff is funny. I thought you had SOME experience in how things work, but you are like otto, who thought my Plant Engineer job in the foundry or the Plant Manager job in plastics was the same as being a resource in Technical Services for a large utility, . . all defined by the needs for a City Engineer otto looked up somewhere.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (11) Nov 06, 2015
You are hung up on credentials


No, actually I'm hung up on the legal aspects of you running an engineering consultancy and troubleshooting service business without a PE license. You're obviously a charlatan.

You are why I got no jobs through HR departments


No, that would be because you did not meet the legal requirements, because you aren't certified or licensed to do the jobs you claim to have done, and if you were ever actually hired into these positions your supervisors were actually breaking the law.

It's beginning to sound more and more like you got all your jobs by social engineering, and got thrown out when your superiors figured that you're a liability.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Nov 06, 2015
"It's beginning to sound more and more like you got all your jobs by social engineering, and got thrown out when your superiors figured that you're a liability."
---------------------------------
Is that what you heard in the library? Is there a copyright directory? If so, look me up.

I had much of the course I wrote and delivered to Sandia National Labs copyrighted, since I sold copies to their librarian.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (11) Nov 06, 2015
my Plant Engineer job in the foundry or the Plant Manager job in plastics


Both of which you kept for how long? Six months?

One would understand that if you were hired as a busyboy on the factory floor for the summer season. Engineer... maybe, but not a plant manager, they don't hire people for temp positions like that.

In my experience, if you're not there to stay they won't even give you the time of day because you're not worth it, because a plant manager position is a post that requires intimate knowledge of the operation of the factory and its workforce - technical and interpersonal.

Six months is about the time when you've just gotten to know how things operate and begin to be able to function as an effective plant manager - or - when your higher-ups discover that you lied about your proficiency.

Charlatans fare better in higher positions because the work is more abstract and can be delegated downward. It takes longer for the higher management to realize.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (14) Nov 06, 2015
"In my experience, . . . "

Which is what? Tell me.

Defend that little ego.
Eikka
4.3 / 5 (12) Nov 06, 2015
"In my experience, . . . "

Which is what? Tell me.

Defend that little ego.


Now look who's hanging onto credentials.

I have no ego. I am literally a nobody. You either believe me because you trust I tell the truth, or because what I say is logically valid, or because you can verify it. Or you dismiss me because you make an ad-hominem fallacy and refuse to see the point.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (14) Nov 06, 2015
You are hung up on credentials because that is all you know: Nameplate
Granted, credentials are arbitrary if your postings are factual and trustworthy.

But the bulk of what you post is crap, which takes only a few minutes to expose.

And you want us to believe its true, because you claim to have credentials which you yourself have proven you dont.

"We would characterize criminal psychopaths as "unsuccessful psychopaths." The implication, of course, is that many psychopaths may exist in society who cope better than do those who come to the attention of the judicial and welfare systems."

-But as georges transgressions are easy to uncover here at physorg, we can consider him unsuccessful as well.

As eikka points out, many of these transgressions, if committed in the real world, would land poor george in jail.

Could that be why he is under continuous treatment down at the VA psych ward (by his own admission)?
greenonions
4.1 / 5 (9) Nov 06, 2015
Eikka
Hold your horses, we'll get to that. I already gave you gas retail prices and bulk coal prices.


And your source for gas, directly contradicts your assertion - which was -
Fossil fuels, oil and gas for the heating sector are incredibly cheap, at around 1-2 cents per kWh
Your source said that gas prices were between 2.6 cents, and 11.7 cents. Your assertion is false. Cont.
greenonions
4.1 / 5 (9) Nov 06, 2015
cont You also claim that oil is
0.44 cents per kWh. Less than a cent.


I think your math is off. Here is your source for oil prices. http://heatingoil...rice.php

At 33 pence per liter - this makes the oil 50 cents (u.s.) per liter - and at 10.6 Kwh per liter - that gives you 4.7 cents per Kwh - far above your 1 - 2 cents.
Cont.
greenonions
4.1 / 5 (9) Nov 06, 2015
Cont. Eikka
public subsidies to these forms of energy are still 10-20-30 whatever cents per kWh. That's just propaganda.

PPA's on wind turbines in the u.s. in 2013 were between 2.3 cents per kwh, and 5.8 cents per Kwh. https://emp.lbl.g...809e.pdf - see figure 48. Federal subsidies are 2.3 cents per Kwh - http://www1.eere....ives.pdf - which puts wind power well in the ball park with oil and gas.
greenonions
3.9 / 5 (7) Nov 06, 2015
Here's a really neat article. The relevant quote regarding utility scale solar power in the U.S. -
Even after backing out a tax credit, this is still less than US6c/kWh, and still beats gas and new coal plants
Maybe we are now on the second rung of the long ladder. http://renewecono...ld-17972
Captain Stumpy
3.9 / 5 (7) Nov 07, 2015
my Plant Engineer job
this is not a good argument- as Eikka noted: one doesn't need a PE or degree to work IN an engineering section for a factory when there is a PE degree holder as the head

case in point: i worked in the engineering dept. of an aircraft parts manufacturer (that should scare the h*ll out of some of yall!) but all i did was check blueprints and mylars against MIL-SPEC and contracts to insure the travelers (manufacturing instructions) for said parts were made per the MIL- and FAA specs
You are hung up on credentials...
but this has been your primary argument since posting on PO, so WTF??

The whole reason i told you not to argue from authority is because it can't be validated
(EXPERIENCE is only good when teaching HOW to do something)

arguments from evidence CAN be validated (or refuted), which was the reasoning for the discussion we had WRT otto/posting on PO

this is why science uses evidence, and not authority, for validation
Bongstar420
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 07, 2015
Is this really an article about higher energy costs?

What are they paying per KWH?
SuperThunder
1.9 / 5 (9) Nov 07, 2015
Rock on, Austria! Not only did they overcome logistical and technology problems, but also a planet full of knowledge-hating money worshiping psychos.
Egleton
4.3 / 5 (6) Nov 07, 2015
Scrolling past all the Ego crap.
It seems that many of the arguments against renewables assume that everything is going to remain in it's present state. No oil price shocks, no world wars, no rampant money printing, (they wouldn't, would they? ).
Just keep pumping it out of the ground and burning it. What could go wrong?
Physorg is infested with paid shills.
http://consciousl...1147073/
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (5) Nov 07, 2015
Physorg is infested with paid shills.
@egleton
this is old news- heck, it was discussed in this study: http://www.drexel...nge.ashx

you can find an article on PO about above study here:
http://phys.org/n...ate.html

humy
3 / 5 (4) Nov 08, 2015
What is lost is that Austria is importing over 70% of energy from other countries. Mainly oil, natural gas and coal.

-nope; nothing in this link implies the contrary thus your 'point' is entirely irrelevant.
humy
4 / 5 (4) Nov 08, 2015
Nice propaganda piece. Let's look at the real story. https://www.euron...tria.htm


since that link doesn't contradict anything said in this link, your point? What you call the 'real' story is not at odds with that in this link thus is irrelevant.
humy
1 / 5 (1) Nov 08, 2015
edit
humy
4 / 5 (4) Nov 08, 2015
Unfortunately, the title is made up of an extremely poor choice of words of "Austria's largest state goes 100% renewable" when what it really means is renewables for electrical production only but, still, very impressive! Good for them! Only complete morons will criticize them (in Austria's largest state ) for doing this.
WillieWard
1.4 / 5 (9) Nov 08, 2015
Physorg is infested with paid shills.
Anyone who contradicts the greenies' propaganda is labeled as paid. In order that the "greenie lie machine", ever greed for subsidies, money from taxpayers, can feel free to ruin natural landscapes, disturb wildlife's habitats, butcher millions birds and bats, in an unpunished way.
gkam
1.2 / 5 (17) Nov 08, 2015
Stumpy, what do you want, pictures of me in the foundry? My membership in American Foundryman's Society? My copy of the Iron Castings Handbook from the AFS?

Go get stuffed. You assume I am like the rest of you and will lie here. But unlike you cowards, I gave my real name and real information. If you think I am lying it is your own character to which you refer, not mine.

I am sick of you phonies cowering behind fake names accusing real folk of things because they are what you would do.

gkam
1.3 / 5 (16) Nov 08, 2015
Okay, Stumpy, I want to see your certificate to be a "Truck Captain". Show it, or risk the BS from authority you accuse others of using.

Show me! I am sick of your assumptions that I bend the truth. Stop it!
AGreatWhopper
2 / 5 (12) Nov 08, 2015
With these comments, phys.org has finally hit its target. All the comments, left, right, and center, are more about mental illness than the content of the article.

There must be some award y'all can get for promoting science among the mentally ill.

As I can sit at the bus stop and hear that kind of discussion any time, I'm disabling java script for this site and will never be bothered by Adblade/Taboola/Outbrain and this raft of nutters ever again.

See 'ya! Really glad I don't have to be 'ya.
jljenkins
3 / 5 (4) Nov 08, 2015
AGW, don't know if you'll see this, but thought I would make an observation anyway. Your main point in commenting seems to have always been about how everyone shouting is a hypocrite. What you may not realize is that 2/3 of the people on this thread are gen X/Y and among them lying is taken as ubiquitous, clearly justified under a plethora of conditions, and they wear hypocrisy like a badge of honor. Boomers are just killing themselves rather than fight it. Their parents only care about how many resources they can consume to live a few more years of meaningless consumer lives, sucking their children dry like vampires.

Just who do you imagine is bothered by the observation that their rhetoric and behavior is contradictory, that they are hypocrites? Look at those choices. If you give a damn about that you should either off yourself or accept that your life will be a miserable hell run by people that will never have a clue what inellectual integrity means.
Captain Stumpy
4.4 / 5 (7) Nov 08, 2015
@gkam
what do you want, pictures of me in the foundry?
what would that prove?
My membership in...
what would that prove?
My copy of...
what would that prove?
this is all argument from authority and irrelevant
it doesn't prove you are correct...proving you worked somewhere only means you worked somewhere: it does NOT validate any other claims
You assume I am like the rest of you and will lie here
well, you have lied here g-
You proudly justify your use of them [guns], but all of you are dangerous to the rest of us, no matter what you think
http://phys.org/n...ine.html

given the millions of guns in the US alone, this means there should be millions of gun deaths in the us DAILY, given your "descriptions" of gun owners
we shouldn't have a population to speak of.... need i say more?
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (6) Nov 08, 2015
I want to see your certificate to be a "Truck Captain"
what would that prove?
would it prove that the law in CA allows people to work as a PE without a license?
Show it, or risk the BS from authority you accuse others of using
but if i show it, that means my argument is from authority, so how can i "risk the BS from authority" by showing it?

also note: you have my name, g- you have the ability to find this for yourself. i am NOT anonymous, so can the "I am sick of you phonies cowering behind fake names" crap-o-la
I am sick of your assumptions that I bend the truth
assumptions can't be proven: eikka and i both have established proof of our claims above
http://www.auburn...ion.html

Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Nov 08, 2015
@gkam
I want to see your certificate to be a "Truck Captain"
PS- actually, this would be at a minimum a Firefighter II certification (depending upon time frames), not a "truck captain" certification

Some required a Fire officer I certification for the position
http://www.mass.g...er-i.pdf

please not that this is for MASS however it is also fairly accurate for the period of time for the CFR's... with the exception of the USAF and the rest of the military, who didn't need to actually comply with the CFR's until 2000 (although most did earlier, as the USAF started the restructuring program in 1992)

what does that prove WRT the above and your being an engineer without a PE?
absolutely NOTHING

so why is it relevant?
it isn't
http://www.auburn...ion.html

there is a reason argument from authority is considered a logical fallacy
NiteSkyGerl
3 / 5 (6) Nov 08, 2015
Resolved, AGW, and I can give you the clinical name of the most common affliction on here. Narcissistic Personality Disorder. You've got the usual trolls like cantthink and antirational that are just sadistic losers and have finally found something they can accomplish- keeping anyone else from accomplishing anything! But gee-look-at-me-kam, greenbunions and iwonthelotto are just examples of NPD. As miserable as they make life, rest assured that their inner life is MUCH more miserable. Empty holes until someone validates them, even if that "someone" is an internet sock puppet.

At least Zephir seems to be gone. Let's hope it's for good. Funny how "I'm not his sock puppet benni" disappeared at the same time.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (14) Nov 08, 2015
"gee-look-at-me-kam" uses his experience to teach some of you how the real world works.

It's not working with you, however. I suspect some kind of personal prejudice.

What have you done, and what did you learn from it? Or are you just here to play the games of the others?

Who are you? Another hider, cowering behind a phony name?
gkam
1.3 / 5 (14) Nov 08, 2015
"there is a reason argument from authority is considered a logical fallacy"
-------------------------------

You do the same stuff with your cut and pastes. That is not proof, it is the nonsense of someone who happens to think like you do. Go here again:

http://www.thegua...n-google

Then tell me which rendition of the job of Truck Captain is closer to the truth, yours or wiki's?
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (5) Nov 08, 2015
Then tell me which rendition of the job of Truck Captain is closer to the truth, yours or wiki's?
OT and irrelevant, but i will answer and use this as a lesson in "argument from authority" vs "argument substantiated by evidence"

argument from authority is:
since i am a truck captain (ret) that i am infallible in my comments regarding the fire department, so if i say Truck Capt is equivalent to a fire chief, this is true
[note, this is intentionally false as a demonstration]

argument substantiated by evidence:
a truck captain can be assigned to a vehicle OR can be also assigned for an entire station
A captain is in charge of a specific fire station or specific fire company
https://en.wikipe..._captain

a fire truck is different from a fire engine in the department, though "fire engine" is also a general term for fire equipment/vehicles
https://en.wikipe...us#Types

get it yet?
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (5) Nov 08, 2015
@gkam cont'd
You do the same stuff with your cut and pastes
except that this is absolutely false, and demonstrated above
this is why i demonstrated above: it is different than your "claims" in that:
1- it is not just cut-&-paste, but also vcalidated

2- there is no contention or argument between the link or the claim, thus it is validated

3- a substantiated argument is authoritative whereas a claim without evidence (argument from authority) means you cannot supply proof of claim, or establish the validity of a claim
so again, you should re-read THIS, instead of misinterpreting the google ARTICLE
http://www.auburn...ion.html

so again, you think the validation of a comment is "cut-&-paste" pseudo-intelligence except that you are not capable of recognizing the difference between the unsubstantiated argument and validation of a claim (see link above)

Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (4) Nov 08, 2015
At least Zephir seems to be gone. Let's hope it's for good. Funny how "I'm not his sock puppet benni" disappeared at the same time
@NiteSkyGerl
well, benni is actually not zeph... zeph is from prague whereas benni lives in the US

and zeph isn't really gone, you can see him playing his sock games right now still...
look for ratings from:
lajib,
hewewa,
bizovuw,
yejih

right now he is uprating JVK, the creationist troll who doesn't believe in Evolution and says that creationist do science... while downrating everyone who is against this

already reported - but feel free to add your own voice if you want
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 08, 2015
Well, okay, maybe it is a misrepresentation of "cut and paste" when you refer to studies.

(sigh), . .

I wrote this right after the other one, but was restricted.

Your arguments do not hold water. I offered proof of all my assertions, and even you looked me up, you said, at USF. Do you want any stuff of me in the foundry? All you had to do was ask. Or to ask technical questions, instead of impugning my character.

When you used your truck captain analogy, it can be checked. My assertions can, too. I gave military group websites with my name and picture on them, sent around multiple copies of various materials, but you want to assume I would lie?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (12) Nov 08, 2015
Stop it!
Waaaaaaa boohoo
I'm sick of your assumptions [sic] that I bend the truth
More deflection george? You don't bend the truth - you fabricate and you lie.

"A woman with a staggering record of fraud, deceit, lies, and broken promises concluded a letter to the parole board with, "I've let a lot of people down… One is only as good as her reputation and name. My word is as good as gold.""

-Arguing with a psychopath is like arguing with your TV set.
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Nov 08, 2015
instead of impugning my character
@gkam
i did not impugn your character, i was making a point WRT PE's and argument from authority
you took that as accusatory and posted offensive argument (also from authority) which is irrelevant - but it is also logical considering the following: https://www.psych...ttle-ego

My assertions can, too
the argument is not about your assertions of being employed or at a location, it is about the validity of a claim that is argument from authority

i assume nothing, least of all whether you lied (i don't care)
try reading the initial post again
this is not a good argument
perhaps you will then realise that this entire time you've been slinging fecal matter indiscriminately because you are feeling threatened?

i don't care about what you CLAIM
only what you can PROVE or at least provide evidence for
El_Nose
not rated yet Nov 09, 2015
@eikka

thanks -- i did not know 1 Btu == 1.05 Kilowatt seconds

I never would have checked that figure.

Hurrah for intellegent conversations returning to Phys.org
gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 09, 2015
"perhaps you will then realise that this entire time you've been slinging fecal matter indiscriminately because you are feeling threatened?"
---------------------------------

Don't be silly. The word is offended.

You folk keep on playing your games, and you keep on staying too scared of otto to do anything about it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (11) Nov 09, 2015
The word is offended.

... you keep on staying too scared of otto to do anything about it
Because otto will do... what? Use more caps??

The word is indeed 'offended'. You offend the good people here with your ignorance, your lies, your fact-forging, your idiot 70s sloganeering, your flooding with empty one-line spit posts.

No wonder they give you a hard time.

But your disease makes you impervious doesnt it?

"psychopaths have a distinct advantage over human beings with conscience and feelings because the psychopath does not have conscience and feelings..."

"Oh, indeed, they can imitate feelings, but the only real feelings they seem to have... is a sort of "predatorial hunger" for what they want"

"And make no mistake... you can NOT hurt their feelings because they don't have any! They will pretend to have feelings if it suits their purposes or gets them what they want. They will verbalize remorse, but their actions will contradict their words..."
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Nov 09, 2015
otto,. . read what you posted to The Man in the Mirror, and get a stunning realization!
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Nov 09, 2015
You folk keep on playing your games, and you keep on staying too scared of otto to do anything about it
@gkam
this is called transference ... and it is not based upon evidence:
obviously you've never seen otto and i discuss hydrino's

.

Because otto will do... what? Use more caps??
@otto
no, that's my line...
LMFAO

(that one was for BlueHigh - LOL)
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (11) Nov 09, 2015
otto,. . read what you posted to The Man in the Mirror, and get a stunning realization!
"A favored technique [of the psychopath] is to debilitate your identity [personally, I hate the term self-esteem] by levelling false accusations and/or questioning your honesty, fidelity, trustworthiness, your "true" motivations, your "real" character, your sanity and judgement."

"Following widespread concern that the criminal justice and mental health systems are failing to deal effectively with dangerous psychopaths, there is a movement in several countries to instigate fundamental legal reform. The most controversial suggestion is to make it possible for individual who have severe personality disorders to be detained in secure mental institutions even if they have been accused of no crime."

-And we are close to identifying the psychopath with confidence.

You can kick and scream all you want.

"The World has only one problem, Psychopaths."

Theyre like vampires.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (11) Nov 09, 2015
The VA outpatient may soon become the involuntarily committed, the inpatient.
WillieWard
4 / 5 (4) Nov 10, 2015
"The World has only one problem, Psychopaths."
humankind: 90% schizophrenics, 40% psychopaths, <5% sane.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Nov 10, 2015
"A favored technique [of the psychopath] is to debilitate your identity [personally, I hate the term self-esteem] by levelling false accusations and/or questioning your honesty, fidelity, trustworthiness, your "true" motivations, your "real" character, your sanity and judgement."
----------------------------------------

Do you not see the irony in your posts, the ones describing your own actions here?

otto, I am serious - you need psychological help, the kind of help you will not find here.

I suggested you go to psych sites, so they can tell you, too.

Do it, for all of us, including yourself.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (10) Nov 10, 2015
otto I am serious you need psychological help, the kind you will not find here
"A favored technique [of the psychopath] is to debilitate your identity by levelling false accusations and/or questioning your honesty, fidelity, trustworthiness, your "true" motivations, your "real" character, your sanity and judgement."

-I'm not the guy who wants people here to believe that I know for certain that nitrogen oxides are all one thing or that manure dust is called volatile solids or that fallout is the main cause of lung cancer or that there was a Pu criticality at fukushima which could throw debris 130km, because I have a pretend MS in environmental mgt.

Im not the guy who is trying to convince people here that I'm more qualified than a PE just because I once held job shop positions with the term 'engineer' in their title.

No, only a true sicko would attempt insanity like that on a science website.

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