Two years of tests confound two decades of assumptions on lithium-ion battery design

October 2, 2015 by Tom Abate
Graduate student Yiyang Li, who plans a teaching career, mentored undergraduate Sophie Meyer in a two-year-long battery experiment that made some novel findings and inspired Meyer to pursue her master's degree in engineering.

A Stanford undergraduate has contributed to a discovery that confounds the conventional wisdom in lithium-ion battery design, pointing the way toward storage devices with more power, greater capacity, and faster charge and discharge capabilities.

The undergraduate was part of a 10-person research team led by William Chueh, an assistant professor of and engineering. In an article published in the journal Advanced Materials, the team explained how a material previously considered secondary in importance was actually critical to overall battery performance, and also devised new design rules for better batteries.

Graduate student Yiyang Li and undergraduate Sophie Meyer led the collaborative effort to design experiments that disproved an assumption shared by battery designers for more than 20 years: While needed a substance called carbon black in order to function, the precise amount of that material had not been considered crucial to overall performance.

"Our research demonstrated that isn't true," said Meyer, who started the experiments when she was a sophomore with no prior experience in materials science.

Chueh praised Li, a PhD student who plans to become a professor, for supervising Meyer over two years of experiments that included the construction of scores of batteries from scratch and advanced observations using X-rays.

"It was painstaking research that involved thousands of hours of hands-on work, and that is very unusual for an undergraduate to do," Chueh said, noting that the experiments epitomized Stanford's dual emphasis on cutting-edge science and training the next generation of scientists and engineers.

Li reflected on the two-year-long process of experimentation with characteristic engineering aplomb and understatement.

"Our work addressed a long-standing debate in our field," he said.

Lithium-ion batteries have been commonly used in laptop and tablet computers, electric vehicles and renewable energy systems for more than two decades. These batteries typically contain cathode particles through which the electrons flow, an action that enables the battery to charge.

These cathode particles are typically composed of lithium iron phosphate or lithium cobalt oxide, mixed together with carbon black, an inert material obtained by the incomplete combustion of certain petroleum products. Prior to the team's research, the quantity and dimensions of the carbon black nanoparticles weren't considered particularly crucial to a battery's function.

"The industry standard for lithium-ion batteries is a low carbon model – say, 5 percent of the total material by weight," Meyer said. "But we found that isn't enough to guarantee rapid and efficient charging and discharging. Ultimately, the rate at which a cathode particle charges depends on how well it is connected to carbon black particles, something that varies a great deal within a battery."

Li said that by upping the percentage of carbon black – as high as 20 percent in some experiments – they found that the cathode particles charged more quickly because they had more uniform carbon connectivity.

But there was a tradeoff. Increasing the percentage of carbon black decreased the amount of cathode particles available to hold a charge. So although a battery with a higher carbon black content might charge faster, it would also have less energy because it has fewer cathode particles to hold the charge.

"It's about finding the optimum balance and the best material," Li said.

These results point toward possible future experiments to further optimize battery design. But such research would not be possible, Chueh emphasized, without the painstaking work that the team has accomplished to date. Over the past two years, Chueh said, Li and Meyer worked with their teammates to fabricate hundreds of batteries with different concentrations of carbon black. Each battery had to be analyzed for composition and performance. Among other things, that required the evaluation of nanometer-scale images of the battery materials obtained through Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory's synchrotron, the Advanced Light Source.

"I had a lot of questions, and I read a ton of papers in the field," Meyer said. "Then we had to figure out how to make the batteries: what ratio of carbon black to to polymer binder to use; what order to add them in; whether to combine the mixture by hand or on a stir plate or in a mill; what temperature to mix at; and how long to mix the slurry, among a lot of other variables."

Meyer, who is pursuing her co-terminal master's degree in materials science and engineering, said it was the hardest work she ever loved.

"You end up with this sloppy black goop that you have to spread out very thinly as a film – 20 to 60 microns thick – on aluminum foil, and then dry it so it doesn't crack," she said. "It was a mess. But we kept at it, and it turned out to be one of the most rewarding things I've ever done. We were able to resolve a fundamental question of science. That's something you don't often get to do as an undergrad."

Other Stanford team members included postdoctoral scholars Jongwoo Lim and Sang Chul Lee and chemistry graduate student William Gent. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory scientists Stefano Marchesini, Harinarayan Krishnan, Tolek Tyliszczak, David Shapiro and David Kilcoyne also contributed to this work.

Explore further: New cathode material creates possibilities for sodium-ion batteries

More information: "Effects of Particle Size, Electronic Connectivity, and Incoherent Nanoscale Domains on the Sequence of Lithiation in LiFePO4 Porous Electrodes." Adv. Mater.. DOI: 10.1002/adma.201502276

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ogg_ogg
not rated yet Oct 02, 2015
And of course there are hundreds of different types of Carbon Black; primary particle size, degree of agglomeration, surface chemistry (composition), internal structure and extended structure (geometry) (all of which affect and are affected by processing...)
EyeNStein
1 / 5 (1) Oct 02, 2015
I'm surprised they don't have a decent computer model for intercalation stress and compressibility and conductivity of these carbon particulates. With so much money riding on these factors...As added usable capacity per unit battery equals extra profit.
Or perhaps "they" do but its a commercial secret for each manufacturers secret sauce.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
The end result of this is better energy storage and cheaper power, and less pollution from dirty fuels, since we can store the energy from intermittent loads, which is cheaper than that from nukes, or even coal with pollution scrubbers.
Uncle Ira
3.5 / 5 (13) Oct 03, 2015
The end result of this is better energy storage and cheaper power, and less pollution from dirty fuels, since we can store the energy from intermittent loads, which is cheaper than that from nukes, or even coal with pollution scrubbers.


Skippy, you keep chirping about how cheap the windmill and solar panes is compared to coal and nuclear, right? Do you have any idea how much a coal or nuclear power plant sized Li-ion battery (group of batteries) would cost? I sure don't me so this is your chance to get me to ask a question and for you to answer it too.

How much would a Li-Ion battery or batteries cost to store up coal or nuclear sized windmill or solar pane plants?
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
Ira, you show ignorance of how the grid works. Batteries store power, and in a grid would not be used as a prime source, but to fill in gaps and do reactance control. Did you really think we would generate and store days of power before sending it out? Or even one day? We do not have to do that. The dynamics of grid planning and operation give us great flexibility in choosing our sources in a modern system.

BTW, it has not gone unnoticed that you threatened me in another thread.

Perhaps a decent analogy is to think of batteries as surge devices, or accumulators, or electrical springs, or even the equivalent of flash memory, where stuff is stored for short periods.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
That middle sentence was meant to go at the end.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
Ira, I apologize for the harsh tone of that post regarding "ignorance". I think I was angry at your threats.
gkam
2 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
Ira, for longer periods utilities will use other storage, such as pumped storage, compressed-air storage, or other kinds. There are plans to use rail cars on slopes, even, . . whatever has the least losses. When we first used pumped storage it lost 50%, but now that is down to about 10-15% I think.

The advantages of no fuel costs and no appreciable pollution are huge.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
I see george is on another one of his manic 1-post-every-5-minutes tear. 15 in the last 2 hours. You really think youre full of that much pertinent info? Or is it just those VA meds kicking in?
BTW, it has not gone unnoticed that you threatened me in another thread
You routinely threaten the people here. Have you forgotten?
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
Yes, having spent much of my life teaching technology to adults, I learned how fast to make the connections for the students. Some of them do it better one bite at a time. We are all different.

Others with psychological problems can't even stay on the issue.
Uncle Ira
3.5 / 5 (13) Oct 03, 2015
Ira, you show ignorance of how the grid works.


I bet you wish I was ignorant enough to realize you did not or can not answer my question.

Batteries store power, and in a grid would not be used as a prime source, but to fill in gaps and do reactance control. Did you really think we would generate and store days of power before sending it out? Or even one day? We do not have to do that. The dynamics of grid planning and operation give us great flexibility in choosing our sources in a modern system.

Perhaps a decent analogy is to think of batteries as surge devices, or accumulators, or electrical springs, or even the equivalent of flash memory, where stuff is stored for short periods.


So you are not going to answer how much the super-duper-sized Li-ion batteries are going to cost? You just going to do the glam-Skippy dance and shuffle and hope nobody notices that you don't have a clue about any of the slogans you keep slinging around?
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
Ira, I suggest you stay in the tow-boat field.

I tried to inform you that we do not need massive amounts of instantaneous storage we get from batteries, but will use other longer-term storage technologies, as we have been doing for a generation. If you want to see the cost of electrical storage, look it up, but keep on checking, because it is dropping rapidly.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
Yes, having spent much of my life teaching technology to adults, I learned how fast to make the connections for the students. Some of them do it better one bite at a time. We are all different
Well there is a difference between teaching as an educated professional, and delivering seminars and lunch-and-learns prepared by real professionals isnt there?

They can both offer thrills to someone in the throes of psychopathic delusions though, yes?

From georges website:

"You are the best!"

"I've been an electrical engineer for over 15 years, . . . and this is the first time I really understood it!"

" Excellent! This was one of the most fruitful and educational workshops that I've had the privilege to attend"

"Mr. George Kamburoff was one of the most captivating speakers I've ever witnessed."

"Couldn't be better."

-You make these up yourself?
Others with psychological problems can't even stay on the issue.
You mean the ever-present issue of YOU george?
Uncle Ira
3.5 / 5 (13) Oct 03, 2015
Ira, I apologize for the harsh tone of that post regarding "ignorance".


Well I am still ignorant because you still did not answer the question. Why you think this Li-ion batteries are going to help with storage on the power grids like you said it was is going to be cheap enough to do? Or were you just Palinizing the place again and thought you were saying something smart?

I think I was angry at your threats.


You pathetic little man. I think you started postuming here with your very FIRST postum on the day you signed up. And been doing every since. You cast the first stone and now you want to wet your little boy panties?

BTW, it has not gone unnoticed that you threatened me in another thread.


Good, glad you are paying attention you. Here's another one. Laissez les bons temps rouler Skippy. (That's coonass for: "P'tit Boug, I am going to cut you if stand still and choot you if run.")
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
Yes, otto, me, the guy in your sleep disorders, the guy who you tried to scream LIAR at, the guy who proved you the misfit, you are the character assassin, the guy with the fixation of someone else, the poor goober who cannot control himself.

I think you might be Dubya himself. That makes the cut-out necessary.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 03, 2015
"P'tit Boug, I am going to cut you if stand still and choot you if run."
---------------------------

Well, sure you are, Ira.

I tried again to teach you something, but you cannot respond with anything but more character assassination. Does the Missus know? I think she is probably your Mommy, right?

Now, back to batteries, I do not know the current price, but it is threatened with the proven technology to halve very soon. But the real factor is how many we will need for load control and fill in gaps in production. As I have repeatedly said, we do not need to store all of the power in batteries, but can use other mass storage systems.

You are attempting to confuse the issue by assuming we will need huge amounts of chemical storage. Do you think the power company engineers, technicians, economists and managers do not understand the long-term consequences of their decisions today? Do you pretend to know better?

You are here for the Uncle Ira Show, as you called it.
Uncle Ira
3.5 / 5 (13) Oct 03, 2015
As I have repeatedly said, we do not need to store all of the power in batteries, but can use other mass storage systems.


This is about Li-ion batteries, like the ones on my cell phone, laptop and radios. Then you threw out this gem.

The end result of this is better energy storage and cheaper power, and less pollution from dirty fuels,


On the article about Li-ion batteries. So maybe it would be better if I were not so ignorant to notice that your first postum on this was just glam-Skippy Palinizing.

You are attempting to confuse the issue by assuming we will need huge amounts of chemical storage.


The article is about Li-ion batteries. Read your first postum again.

Do you think the power company engineers, technicians, economists and managers do not understand the long-term consequences of their decisions today?Do you pretend to know better?


I know enough to know that Li-ion batteries is not something they they will use like you don't.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.3 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
the guy who you tried to scream LIAR
The guy who lied about his MS degree. The guy who doubles the number and intensity of earthquakes in his area because he actually experienced some. The guy who claims mosquitoes are attracted to UV and then lies about having said it in the same thread. The guy who calls people gnats and goobers and cheap kazoos. The guy who imagines that the accolades he makes up in his head and posts on his website are supposed to be actual testimony from real people.

This guys name is george kamburoff. And he has proven himself to be a pathological liar.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 03, 2015
Gosh, Ira, I must have gotten under your skin with my requests for you to stop personal attacks and stick to the issues. But you still do not get it: I WAS discussing the issue and the implications, things you folk not in the field do not understand.

You asked how much it would cost to buy Lithium batteries to replace a power station. Look it up yourself, it is a nonsensical question, because that is not how they would be used. For one thing you are confusing power and energy. We need short bursts of power, not vast amounts of energy storage. If we need vast amounts of energy storage, we use other methods, . . . so far.
Uncle Ira
3.5 / 5 (13) Oct 03, 2015
You asked how much it would cost to buy Lithium batteries to replace a power station. Look it up yourself, it is a nonsensical question, because that is not how they would be used.


Well you at first seemed to think they would be used that way. Here is what you said,,,

The end result of this is better energy storage and cheaper power, and less pollution from dirty fuels,


So were you lying then, or are you lying now?

For one thing you are confusing power and energy. We need short bursts of power, not vast amounts of energy storage. If we need vast amounts of energy storage, we use other methods,


Well golly gee Skippy pardon moi. I confused that thing. But you were confused before I was,,,

The end result of this is better energy storage and cheaper power, and less pollution from dirty fuels


The end result of this (the article is about Li-ion batteries) is better energy storage and cheaper power, according to glam-Skippy.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
"The end result of this (the article is about Li-ion batteries) is better energy storage and cheaper power, according to glam-Skippy."
---------------------------------

Yes, . . exactly. The use of batteries negates the need for some peaking plants, and lets us get rid of the coal burners now choking mankind.

Why do I have to spell it out for you?
Uncle Ira
3.5 / 5 (13) Oct 03, 2015
"The end result of this (the article is about Li-ion batteries) is better energy storage and cheaper power, according to glam-Skippy."
---------------------------------

Yes, . . exactly. The use of batteries negates the need for some peaking plants, and lets us get rid of the coal burners now choking mankind.

Why do I have to spell it out for you?


So we are back to what I first time asked you. I do not know, so yeah Skippy, you got to spell him out for me. How much does a Li-ion battery or enough Li-ion batteries cost that will replace one peaking plant?
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
You still do not get it. The question is :"For how long?"

You still confuse power with energy.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
If you want an answer for a long time, which is rare, we can go look at Hawaii, where they just signed a contract for pure PV power with complete storage for nighttime.

I'll look it up. Since then, we have probably halved the cost of batteries.

http://www.greent...Included
Uncle Ira
3.5 / 5 (13) Oct 03, 2015
You still do not get it. The question is :"For how long?"

You still confuse power with energy.


Non Cher. I know what power and energy are just fine. What I am confused about is how you can say such silly things on a science place and still try to pretend you know anything. It's not my fault if you say silly things and don't bother to ponder them a little before the "Three Minute Take Him Back" rule for couyons kicks in.
Uncle Ira
3.5 / 5 (13) Oct 03, 2015
You still do not get it. The question is :"For how long?"

You still confuse power with energy.


Okay, I will make him easy on you. A peaking plant for San Fransisco for 4 hours. You made the comment in the Li-ion article.

Yeah, you know it was a silly thing to say here but you got see if you can walk back your sloganeering a little. The batteries the article is writing about is for cell phones, laptops and radios, not for replacing peaking plants.

The end result of this is better energy storage and cheaper power, and less pollution from dirty fuels.


No, the end result, if you had bothered to read the article. is Li-ion batteries are not as dangerous as everybody had thought they were.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
Which means they are more suitable for distribution, right?

I gave you the reference to the utility battery for one of the Hawaiian setups, did you read it? I do not know the demand of SF at any particular time, so I cannot tell you. And it is dynamic. You would have to determine which hours, then integrate the area under that particular load profile for the total usage for sizing.
Returners
1 / 5 (6) Oct 03, 2015
My kind of woman!

Always question the experts, as anyone known as an "expert" is more than likely over-stating their qualifications

Never become the "expert".

Experts are blinded by such terms as "settled science" and thereby never seem to learn anything in their lives.
Uncle Ira
3.5 / 5 (13) Oct 03, 2015
You would have to determine which hours, then integrate the area under that particular load profile for the total usage for sizing.


So why you did not tell me you couldn't answer the question from the start? Hooyeei, I sure would like to see the "sizing" for that "total usage", that must be biggest Li-ion battery nobody never did see, eh?
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 03, 2015
No, Ira, it would be a big collection of small batteries.

There are utility-sized batteries already. But to power SF, they would use something like Helms pumped storage, I would think, with new technology equipment.
Egleton
3 / 5 (4) Oct 03, 2015
OK!
Lets rip this thread away from the agents provocateur. (You know who you are.)

Today's topic is lithium batteries.
I am impressed by the dedication that the researchers put into very important minutiae.
It would appear to me that there has been an explosion of options in chemical storage of energy.
In my dreams I want a secondary nuclear battery. It would have one million times the storage capacity of chemical batteries.
Has anyone out there got any kernels of an idea?
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 03, 2015
" I want a secondary nuclear battery. It would have one million times the storage capacity of chemical batteries."
------------------------------------

Really? I would like to have world peace, and lots of ice cream.
Egleton
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 03, 2015
You are on my ignore list gkam
Edenlegaia
5 / 5 (1) Oct 04, 2015
" I want a secondary nuclear battery. It would have one million times the storage capacity of chemical batteries."
------------------------------------

Really? I would like to have world peace, and lots of ice cream.


Unfortunately, world peace is far from reach. As for lots of ice cream...no comment. Really.
We could very well develop safe, powerful nuclear batteries. Let's not forget that we may be very far from high efficiency lithium ion batteries we could later recycle. Yes, we would need to, because the amount of energy our civilisation needs would make us build a tremendous amount of batteries. The amount of questions it raises is on par with the questions that probable more advanced nuclear batteries raises. We're, however, closer to safe and powerful energy storage and distribution with nuclear than we are with anything else. For now.
Moebius
5 / 5 (3) Oct 04, 2015
Are you kidding me? They've been adding a substance to lithium batteries for 20 years without testing its effect? Sounds like a bunch of people got together and all agreed to be stupid at once.
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Oct 04, 2015
"We could very well develop safe, powerful nuclear batteries".

Really? How would you charge them?

Are you really speaking of thermoelectric generators driven from waste heat of the radioactivity?
Returners
1 / 5 (3) Oct 04, 2015
Are you kidding me? They've been adding a substance to lithium batteries for 20 years without testing its effect? Sounds like a bunch of people got together and all agreed to be stupid at once.

As I said, "Settled science".

It is rather shocking to see just how stupid some highly educated people can be, now isn't it?

All those engineers from leading electronics companies, universities, the government, etc...not just in the U.S., but everywhere...

idiots.

How do these people get a degree anyway?

Now stop and think about the implications for other endeavors of "settled science".

Keep in mind, your text books and your dictionaries and encyclopedias are written by some of the same idiots.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.6 / 5 (9) Oct 04, 2015
I want a secondary nuclear battery. It would have one million times the storage capacity of chemical batteries."
------------------------------------

Really? I would like to have world peace, and lots of ice cream
Well your shit's ice cream, according to you, and you ARE full of that (well documented), so you should have all the ice cream you want.

Why don't you wish for mental health and self-control instead?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (9) Oct 04, 2015
Case in point:
Gosh, Ira, I must have gotten under your skin with my requests for you to stop personal attacks and stick to the issues. But you still do not get it: I WAS discussing the issue and the implications, things you folk not in the field do not understand
Let's see, when you were in the 'field', Li-ion batteries hadn't been invented.

And your posts in this thread contain no references, only statements from a confirmed liar and fabricator that readers are supposed to accept without question simply because youvery shared your real name.

But again, we know that george kamburoff is a confirmed liar and fact-forger. And so we need to see some links to back up what you say.

Because george kamburoffs word is shit here.
Urgelt
1.9 / 5 (9) Oct 05, 2015
Ira wrote, "Do you have any idea how much a coal or nuclear power plant sized Li-ion battery (group of batteries) would cost?"

Fundamental categorization error, Ira. One category is electricity production. The other category is storage. No-one on any side of any energy argument (except buttheads, but we'll leave them out) is recommending that we replace power plants with batteries. Nor are direct cost comparisons between the two categories meaningful, since they each serve different purposes.

Your argument appears to be a straw man: you attribute nonsense to your opponents, then beat them up for being ridiculous. Straw man arguments may persuade the stupid and the deluded (see: Republicans), but they're of no use in conversation with science-literate persons.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 05, 2015
Urgelt, thanks, but it is a game with these players. They have no intent of discussing science, they just play semantic games, then think they have made others look silly. That one calls these fora "The Uncle Ira Show", probably for the local goobers.

I guess many of them do not understand their own transparency.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 05, 2015
Ira can continue to award me ones, but is unable to debate any issues because he does not have the knowledge or experience.

Give it up, Ira. You are embarrassing yourself and your Missus, and your kid, too.
Uncle Ira
3.7 / 5 (12) Oct 05, 2015
@ urglet-Skippy.

Fundamental categorization error, Ira. One category is electricity production. The other category is storage.


Fundamental you not following the comments error Skippy.

No-one on any side of any energy argument (except buttheads, but we'll leave them out) is recommending that we replace power plants with batteries


Which is why the glam-Skippy must be a butthead, eh? Because he started off like this here,

The end result of this is better energy storage and cheaper power, and less pollution from dirty fuels, since we can store the energy from intermittent loads, which is cheaper than that from nukes, or even coal with pollution scrubbers


Nor are direct cost comparisons between the two categories meaningful, since they each serve different purposes


glam-Skippy started off saying he thought that this battery stuff would reduce peaking plants. The article is about Li-ion batteries being safer than was thought of.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 05, 2015
No, Ira, you demonstrated a fundamental ignorance of power, and got caught.

And my assertion was correct, that better batteries can reduce the pollution from peaking plants, which they start to replace first.

I know you and otto think this is your playground, but many of us are serious about discussing science, not playing your semantic games. Go to another forum, please.
Uncle Ira
3.8 / 5 (13) Oct 05, 2015
Your argument appears to be a straw man:you attribute nonsense to your opponents, then beat them up for being ridiculous.


Well excuse me Skippy wanting a silly looking pointy cap. The article is about Li-ion batteries being safer. And glam-Skippy (who signed up wearing a silly looking pointy cap with moons and stars on him) started the comments about the safe Li-ion batteries with,,,,,

The end result of this is better energy storage and cheaper power, and less pollution from dirty fuels, since we can store the energy from intermittent loads, which is cheaper than that from nukes, or even coal with pollution scrubbers


What?

Straw man arguments may persuade the stupid and the deluded (see: Republicans), but they're of no use in conversation with science-literate persons.


I never voted for a Republican in my life. glam-Skippy is the embarrassment to Democrats. He is the liberal answer to the Sarah Palin. And now you got my attention Skippy.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 05, 2015
"And now you got my attention Skippy."
------------------------------------

If you had any serious technical comments, you would not need to go after others, Ira.

Give up your silly game. You really ARE embarrassing your own folks.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Oct 05, 2015
Fundamental categorization error, Ira. One category is electricity production. The other category is storage. No-one on any side of any energy argument (except buttheads, but we'll leave them out) is recommending that we replace power plants with batteries
And youre being dense on purpose. Storage and production can be factored together and cost comparisons made.
If you had any serious technical comments
Its funny how psychopaths have this unique ability to imagine that their opponents are goobers, rodents, gnats and other such vermin and then use this delusion to convince themselves that they are winning arguments when it is obvious to everyone else that they are mostly full of shit, and are losing badly.

George doesnt produce references because they would only prove him wrong and are thus written by goobers, rodents, and gnats.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Oct 05, 2015
I know you and otto think this is your playground, but many of us are serious about discussing science, not playing your semantic games
So explain the science behind your assertions that

-high energy alpha cant penetrate skin

-fallout is the major cause of lung cancer (not even on the list)

-fukushima H2-iniated Pu fission explosions can throw macroscopic vessel parts 130km without making a crater, even though real nukes cant throw debris more than a few km

-there is plutonium raining down on idaho

-mosquitos are attracted to UV

-Manure dust is called volatile solids and is a main constituent of pollution in the 'high air' above the central valley

-Swimming pools are routinely used to cool residences

--You have solar panels on your roof

-You have an MS in Environmental Mgt

-You made all these things up. Making up your own facts is not science, it is playing games.

Quit pretending to be things you arent. Like honest and trustworthy and sane.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Oct 05, 2015
Well excuse me Skippy wanting a silly looking pointy cap. The article is about Li-ion batteries being safer. And glam-Skippy (who signed up wearing a silly looking pointy cap with moons and stars on him) started the comments about the safe Li-ion batteries
"What makes psychopaths different from all others is the remarkable ease with which they lie, the pervasiveness of their deception, and the callousness with which they carry it out.

But there is something else about the speech of psychopaths that is equally puzzling: their frequent use of contradictory and logically inconsistent statements that usually escape detection.

"Those of us who have had experiences with psychopaths know that the language of the psychopath is two-dimensional. They are, as someone once said, as "deep as a thimble."
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Oct 05, 2015
"Psychopaths are notorious for not answering the questions asked them. They will answer something else, or in such a way that the direct question is never addressed. They also phrase things so that some parts of their narratives are difficult to understand. This is not careless speech, of which everyone is guilty at times, but an ongoing indication of the underlying condition in which the organization of mental activity suggests something is wrong. It's not what they say, but how they say it that gives insight into their true nature.

"But this raises, again, the question: if their speech is so odd, how come smart people get taken in by them? Why do we fail to pick up the inconsistencies?

"Part of the answer is that the oddities are subtle so that our general listening mode will not normally pick them up. But my own experience is that some of the "skipped" or oddly arranged words, or misused words are automatically reinterpreted by OUR brains..."

-All IMO of course.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 07, 2015
If those are the opinion of otto, why are they in quotation marks?

I think otto is just a kid on Mommy's computer. Look at the quality of his responses, and the monomania in them. He is obviously screaming for help, . . and using the words of others, more erudite.

Is there nobody here who has relatives in Social Work who can help otto?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Oct 07, 2015
If those are the opinion of otto, why are they in quotation marks?

I think otto is just a kid on Mommy's computer. Look at the quality of his responses, and the monomania in them. He is obviously screaming for help, . . and using the words of others, more erudite.

Is there nobody here who has relatives in Social Work who can help otto?
"He does bizarre and self-destructive things because consequences that would fill the ordinary man with shame, self-loathing, and embarrassment simply do not affect the psychopath at all. What to others would be a disaster is to him merely a fleeting inconvenience."

-You have no idea what you look like to the people here.
EyeNStein
5 / 5 (3) Oct 09, 2015
Please don't poke the trolls. They don't listen, and it just makes them rant more extensively.
Please just put them on ignore after their first idiotic statement. They hate to be deliberately ignored and there is nothing they can do about it except stop posting.

This is meant to be a discussion on Lithium Batteries!
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 09, 2015
Thank you. My first post was:

"The end result of this is better energy storage and cheaper power, and less pollution from dirty fuels, since we can store the energy from intermittent loads, which is cheaper than that from nukes, or even coal with pollution scrubbers."

If you can help us get rid of the games and personal attacks, you will be praised.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (9) Oct 10, 2015
Thank you. My first post was:

"The end result of this is better energy storage and cheaper power, and less pollution from dirty fuels, since we can store the energy from intermittent loads, which is cheaper than that from nukes, or even coal with pollution scrubbers."
Yeah, one of your brainless mantras which ira showed you was not the topic.

And your 2nd post was about yourself.

Youyouyouyouyouyouyouyou.
If you can help us get rid of the games and personal attacks, you will be praised
Quit lying, flooding, fabricating facts, and talking about your self-ascribed fantasies.

Then people wont have to follow you around fixing your crap and warning innocent readers here about you.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Oct 10, 2015
-But thats not going to happen is it?

"The psychopath does not think that they have any psychological or emotional problems, and they see no reason to change their behavior to conform to standards with which they do not agree. They are well-satisfied with themselves and their inner landscape. They see nothing wrong with they way they think or act, and they never look back with regret or forward with concern. They perceive themselves as superior beings in a hostile world in which others are competitors for power and resources. They feel it is the optimum thing to do to manipulate and deceive others in order to obtain what they want."

-IMO, as always.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 12, 2015
Did you notice almost all of your posts are about me? Nice fixation.

Sounds like psychopathy.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2015
You're the current psycho bullshit artist du jour. I'm not the only one who has taken it upon themselves to correct your lies.

Have you noticed?

Informing the public of just what a lying psychopath is, is very rewarding. And exposing your lies and bullshit is very easy to do.

Have you noticed?

Thanks for the opportunity. Maybe you're not as superior as you think you are.

I bet you still think that the people here accept your MS in 'life experiences' confers some authority, even though you continue to lie about it being in environmental mgt.

They dont.

But evidence does not phase a psychopath now does it?

His inner sanctum is impenetrable. IMO.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Oct 15, 2015
all of your posts about me
At the moment you're the only lying, cheating, flooding psychopath here. IMO.

Did you notice?

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