NASA simulation suggests black holes may make ideal dark matter labs

June 23, 2015 by Francis Reddy
The image layers multiple frames from the visualization to increase the number of dark matter particles. The particles are shown as gray spheres attached to shaded trails representing their motion. Redder trails indicate particles more strongly affected by the black hole's gravitation and closer to its event horizon (black sphere at center, mostly hidden by trails). The ergosphere, where all matter and light must follow the black hole's spin, is shown in teal. Credit: NASA Goddard Scientific Visualization Studio

A new NASA computer simulation shows that dark matter particles colliding in the extreme gravity of a black hole can produce strong, potentially observable gamma-ray light. Detecting this emission would provide astronomers with a new tool for understanding both black holes and the nature of dark matter, an elusive substance accounting for most of the mass of the universe that neither reflects, absorbs nor emits light.

"While we don't yet know what is, we do know it interacts with the rest of the universe through gravity, which means it must accumulate around ," said Jeremy Schnittman, an astrophysicist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland. "A black hole not only naturally concentrates dark matter particles, its gravitational force amplifies the energy and number of collisions that may produce ."

In a study published in The Astrophysical Journal on June 23, Schnittman describes the results of a computer simulation he developed to follow the orbits of hundreds of millions of , as well as the gamma rays produced when they collide, in the vicinity of a black hole. He found that some gamma rays escaped with energies far exceeding what had been previously regarded as theoretical limits.

In the simulation, dark matter takes the form of Weakly Interacting Massive Particles, or WIMPS, now widely regarded as the leading candidate of what dark matter could be. In this model, WIMPs that crash into other WIMPs mutually annihilate and convert into gamma rays, the most energetic form of light. But these collisions are extremely rare under normal circumstances.

Over the past few years, theorists have turned to black holes as dark matter concentrators, where WIMPs can be forced together in a way that increases both the rate and energies of collisions. The concept is a variant of the Penrose process, first identified in 1969 by British astrophysicist Sir Roger Penrose as a mechanism for extracting energy from a spinning black hole. The faster it spins, the greater the potential energy gain.

This image shows the gamma-ray signal produced in the computer simulation by annihilations of dark matter particles. Lighter colors indicate higher energies. The highest-energy gamma rays originate from the center of the crescent-shaped region at left, closest to the black hole's equator and event horizon. The gamma rays with the greatest chances of escape are produced on the side of the black hole that spins toward us. Such lopsided emission is typical for a rotating black hole. Credit: NASA Goddard/Jeremy Schnittman

In this process, all of the action takes place outside the black hole's event horizon, the boundary beyond which nothing can escape, in a flattened region called the ergosphere. Within the ergosphere, the black hole's rotation drags space-time along with it and everything is forced to move in the same direction at nearly speed of light. This creates a natural laboratory more extreme than any possible on Earth.

The faster the black hole spins, the larger its ergosphere becomes, which allows high-energy collisions further from the event horizon. This improves the chances that any gamma rays produced will escape the black hole.

"Previous work indicated that the maximum output energy from the collisional version of the Penrose process was only about 30 percent higher than what you start with," Schnittman said. In addition, only a small portion of managed to escape the ergosphere. These results suggested that clear evidence of the Penrose process might never be seen from a supermassive black hole.

But the earlier studies included simplifying assumptions about where the highest-energy collisions were most likely to occur. Moving beyond this initial work meant developing a more complete computational model, one that tracked large numbers of particles as they gathered near a spinning black hole and interacted among themselves.

The video will load shortly
A new computer simulation explores the connection between two of the most elusive phenomena in the universe, black holes and dark matter. Credit: NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center

Schnittman's computer simulation does just that. By tracking the positions and properties of hundreds of millions of randomly distributed particles as they collide and annihilate each other near a black hole, the new model reveals processes that produce gamma rays with much higher energies, as well as a better likelihood of escape and detection, than ever thought possible. He identified previously unrecognized paths where collisions produce gamma rays with a peak energy 14 times higher than that of the original particles.

Using the results of this new calculation, Schnittman created a simulated image of the gamma-ray glow as seen by a distant observer looking along the black hole's equator. The highest-energy light arises from the center of a crescent-shaped region on the side of the black hole spinning toward us. This is the region where gamma rays have the greatest chance of exiting the ergosphere and being detected by a telescope.

The research is the beginning of a journey Schnittman hopes will one day culminate with the incontrovertible detection of an annihilation signal from dark matter around a supermassive black hole.

"The simulation tells us there is an astrophysically interesting signal we have the potential of detecting in the not too distant future, as gamma-ray telescopes improve," Schnittman said. "The next step is to create a framework where existing and future gamma-ray observations can be used to fine-tune both the particle physics and our models of ."

Explore further: How fast do black holes spin?

More information: Paper: The Distribution and Annihilation of Dark Matter Around Black Holes - iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/806/2/264 , arxiv.org/abs/1506.06728

Paper: Revised Upper Limit to Energy Extraction from a Kerr Black Hole - dx.doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevLett.113.261102 , arxiv.org/abs/1410.6446

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cantdrive85
1.9 / 5 (13) Jun 23, 2015
A fictional entity to "research" and "study" another fictional entity, that's about right!
JeanTate
3.8 / 5 (21) Jun 23, 2015
@cd: Of course not; whatever gave you that idea?

A good example of "A fictional entity to "research" and "study" another fictional entity" is SAFIRE, which is a 'looks like a duck' experiment to study (fictional) giant, galaxy-spanning Birkeland currents which power the Sun. A particularly cute part of the fiction is that the Sun has a wire attached to it ... check out this webpage: http://www.intern...t=294651
liquidspacetime
1.6 / 5 (7) Jun 23, 2015
The notions of dark matter and the dark matter particle are incorrect. The mass which fills 'empty' space is beginning to be referred to as the 'dark mass' in order to distinguish it from the baggage associated with dark matter.

'Dark Energy/Dark Mass: The Slient Truth'
https://tienzengo...t-truth/

"That is, all that we are certain about [is] the dark mass, not dark matter, let alone to say about the dark 'particle'."

Particles of matter move through and displace the dark mass, including 'particles' as large as galaxies and galaxy clusters.

The Milky Way moves through and displaces the dark mass.

The Milky Way moves through and curves spacetime.

The state of displacement of the dark mass is curved spacetime.
JeanTate
3.6 / 5 (17) Jun 23, 2015
@liquidspacetime:
'Dark Energy/Dark Mass: The Slient Truth' [link]
Have you written up your ideas in the form of a paper? Have you published such a paper? References please.

There should be many astronomical tests for your idea, beyond Planck (CMB) data. One such is the topic of this PO article; what does you model predict re the high energy gamma spectrum from the vicinity of a black hole, supermassive or just ~stellar mass?
liquidspacetime
3.8 / 5 (4) Jun 23, 2015
@JeanTate

References please.


'The Milky Way's dark matter halo appears to be lopsided'
http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3802

"the emerging picture of the dark matter halo of the Milky Way is dominantly lopsided in nature."

The Milky Way's halo is not a clump of dark matter traveling along with the Milky Way. The Milky Way's halo is lopsided due to the matter in the Milky Way moving through and displacing the dark mass.

'Offset between dark matter and ordinary matter: evidence from a sample of 38 lensing clusters of galaxies'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.1475

"Our data strongly support the idea that the gravitational potential in clusters is mainly due to a non-baryonic fluid, and any exotic field in gravitational theory must resemble that of CDM fields very closely."

The offset is due to the galaxy clusters moving through and displacing the dark mass, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water.
JeanTate
3.3 / 5 (12) Jun 23, 2015
@liquidspacetime: Thanks.

Have you written up your ideas (the ones in the webpage you provided a link to, or otherwise) in the form of a paper? If so, have you published it?

The references you cited do not include, among the authors, a name that resembles "Tienzen (Jeh-Tween) Gong", the author of "Dark Energy/Dark Mass: The Slient Truth"; but perhaps there is one, under an alias?
liquidspacetime
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 23, 2015
Tienzen is the first person I heard of use the term 'dark mass'.

More evidence particles of matter move through and displace the dark mass:

'Hubble Finds Ghostly Ring of Dark Matter'
http://www.nasa.g...ure.html

"The wreck created a ripple of dark matter, which is somewhat similar to a ripple formed in a pond when a rock hits the water."

The 'pond' consists of dark mass. The ripple created when galaxy clusters collide is a wave in the dark mass.

'Galactic Pile-Up May Point to Mysterious New Dark Force in the Universe'
http://www.wired....k-force/

"But this would require the dark matter to be able to interact with itself in a completely new an unexpected way, a "dark force" that affects only dark matter."

It's not a new force. It's the dark mass displaced by the clusters interacting analogous to two boat's bow waves.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (4) Jun 23, 2015
cantdrive85
1.6 / 5 (7) Jun 24, 2015
Interesting link JT, no real discussion though, just a meeting of the minds of the "skeptics opposed to experiment". I noticed one of the criticisms is about which model (anode or cathode) is being tested. There is some "skepticism" because there are multiple models. Silly them for not "knowing" the answer before the experiment.
And in an ironic twist to said "skepticism", the above paper describes the authors conclusions based upon the Kerr BH. How many BH models are there? How many BB models are there for that matter? Skeptics? Laughable!
JeanTate
3.5 / 5 (13) Jun 24, 2015
@cd:
Interesting link JT
Thanks. Will you be joining the discussion?
Silly them for not "knowing" the answer before the experiment
Didn't you know? "Electrical theorists" are NEVER surprised by what any experiment or observation shows!
the above paper describes the authors conclusions based upon the Kerr BH. How many BH models are there? How many BB models are there for that matter?
Unless you go beyond the Standard Model (of particle physics), just one.

A Kerr BH is simply one with "spin", so there is an ergosphere.

Black holes can also have non-zero charge; modeling them is no different.
Skeptics? Laughable!
Wilful ignorance? Sad
Mike_Massen
4.1 / 5 (13) Jun 24, 2015
cantdrive85 claims
A fictional entity to "research" and "study" another fictional entity, that's about right
What is the basis for your claim a BH cannot exist ?

Asked you before but, all you were able to say were "There are too many reasons.." !

What are the top three (3) ?

Please be more pertinent, a good sentence on each, ie fits within 1000 chrs ?

Why NOT just tell us from YOUR particular theory re BH's as to just WHY there SHOULD be a specific upper limit to Newton's gravitational re Force & HOW determined ?

And be really GOOD physics to offer consideration of crafting an experiment to precisely determine it ?

But,
All you have shown cantdrive85 for so MANY months is mere faith NOT supported by ANY evidence whereas astronomical observations show Eg Stars orbiting extremely fast around a (ie black space) region speeds CONSISTENT with a BH's gravitation AND that there is no upper limit (so far at all) on Gm1m2/d^2

Maths & Physics please cantdrive85 ?
Enthusiastic Fool
4.5 / 5 (6) Jun 24, 2015
@liquidspacetime

Well, you've done more "work" than I have on this but I don't know that:

universetoday.com
wired.com
astronomy.com
msnbc.msn.com
physicsworld.com
nasa.gov

are appropriate citations for a paper on the nature of the Universe that flies in the face of modern science. There's a lot of assertions with no maths. This is like a middle school Science Fair project. Unfortunately, I don't believe you'll be taking home the blue ribbon for it.
liquidspacetime
1.8 / 5 (4) Jun 24, 2015
'Dark matter' is now understood to fill what would otherwise be considered to be empty space.

'Cosmologists at Penn Weigh Cosmic Filaments and Voids'
http://www.upenn....nd-voids

"Dark matter ... permeate[s] all the way to the center of the voids."

'No Empty Space in the Universe --Dark Matter Discovered to Fill Intergalactic Space'
http://www.dailyg...ce-.html

"A long standing mystery on where the missing dark matter is has been solved by the research. There is no empty space in the universe. The intergalactic space is filled with dark matter."

Dark mass is a more correct term for the mass which fills 'empty' space.

All mainstream physics has to understand is that particles of matter move through and displace the dark mass and most of the outstanding questions facing physics are answered.
Benni
2.5 / 5 (8) Jun 24, 2015
'Dark matter' is now understood to fill what would otherwise be considered to be empty space.

'Cosmologists at Penn Weigh Cosmic Filaments and Voids'

"A long standing mystery on where the missing dark matter is has been solved by the research. There is no empty space in the universe. The intergalactic space is filled with dark matter."

Dark mass is a more correct term for the mass which fills 'empty' space.

All mainstream physics has to understand is that particles of matter move through and displace the dark mass and most of the outstanding questions facing physics are answered.


So there is all this so-called empty space out there filled with DM. There is a lot of empty space between Mercury & Pluto which according to you is filled with DM? If so, where is the evidence of the gravity that must accompany all this "mass" ? We launch rockets all over without ever accounting for it.
liquidspacetime
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 24, 2015
So there is all this so-called empty space out there filled with DM. There is a lot of empty space between Mercury & Pluto which according to you is filled with DM? If so, where is the evidence of the gravity that must accompany all this "mass" ? We launch rockets all over without ever accounting for it.


The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.

The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* gravity.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (5) Jun 24, 2015
Empty space is not filled with dark matter.


'No Empty Space in the Universe --Dark Matter Discovered to Fill Intergalactic Space'
http://www.dailyg...ce-.html

"A long standing mystery on where the missing dark matter is has been solved by the research. There is no empty space in the universe. The intergalactic space is filled with dark matter."

Meaning, 'empty' space has mass which is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it.

Q. Why is the particle always detected traveling through a single slit in a double slit experiment?
A. The particle *always* travels through a single slit. It is the associated wave in the dark mass which passes through both.

The wave of wave-particle duality is a wave in the dark mass.

Wave-particle duality is a moving particle AND it's associated wave in the dark mass.
Benni
1.7 / 5 (6) Jun 24, 2015
'No Empty Space in the Universe --Dark Matter Discovered to Fill Intergalactic Space'
http://www.dailyg...ce-.html


Just so darn odd isn't it? How DM cannot cannot find a way beyond the outermost parts of galaxies to the interiors where we live so it can actually be measured by its gravitational influence.......well, that characteristic is better called Cosmic Fairy Dust, she has a sister who goes by the name of Tooth Fairy.

liquidspacetime
2 / 5 (4) Jun 24, 2015
'No Empty Space in the Universe --Dark Matter Discovered to Fill Intergalactic Space'
http://www.dailyg...ce-.html


Just so darn odd isn't it? How DM cannot cannot find a way beyond the outermost parts of galaxies to the interiors where we live so it can actually be measured by its gravitational influence


The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* the gravitational influence.

The Earth displaces the dark mass. The dark mass pushes back. The dark mass pushing back *is* gravity.
Benni
2 / 5 (4) Jun 24, 2015
Just so darn odd isn't it? How DM cannot cannot find a way beyond the outermost parts of galaxies to the interiors where we live so it can actually be measured by its gravitational influence


The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* the gravitational influence.

The Earth displaces the dark mass. The dark mass pushes back. The dark mass pushing back *is* gravity.
..........I wonder if our resident Quantum Theorists agree with you?
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (4) Jun 24, 2015
I wonder if our resident Quantum Theorists agree with you?


ON-LINEAR WAVE MECHANICS A CAUSAL INTERPRETATION by LOUIS DE BROGLIE

"the probability of presence ... arise from the interaction of the particle with a "subquantic medium" which escapes our observation and is entirely chaotic, and which is everywhere present in what we call "empty space"."

The "subquantic medium" is the dark mass.

'Fluid mechanics suggests alternative to quantum orthodoxy'
http://newsoffice...ics-0912

"The fluidic pilot-wave system is also chaotic."

A "fluidic pilot-wave system" is the dark mass.

'When Fluid Dynamics Mimic Quantum Mechanics'
http://www.scienc...1934.htm

"If you have a system that is deterministic and is what we call in the business 'chaotic,' ... then it can behave probabilistically,"

What waves in a double slit experiment is the dark mass.
cantdrive85
1.7 / 5 (6) Jun 24, 2015
What is the basis for your claim a BH cannot exist ?
"There are too many reasons.." !
What are the top three (3) ?

1). Dividing by zero; the maths involved are flawed fundamentally and are complete nonsense. Many people have shown the maths to be incorrect but it has fallen on the deaf ears of a herd of incompetence.
2). Infinite densities and point sources; These really belong in the maths portion, but they're so ridiculous they deserve their own #. Mathematical constructs which are unfalsifiable and remain only on paper and in the minds of fanciful mathematicians.
3). Logic; Spacetime, gravity wells, warped space, extra dimensions, or event horizons, it's all just pseudoscientific metaphysical mumbo jumbo. It's laughable, and our descendants are going to mock us more than we mock the flat earthers, space science is in a pitiful state. I'm ashamed to be associated by era.
All you have is maths, and it's pathetically wrong. Too many reasons indeed!
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (7) Jun 25, 2015
All mainstream physics has to understand is that particles of matter move through and displace the dark mass and most of the outstanding questions facing physics are answered.
All observations so far (of galaxy mergers and motions and DM distributions) indicate that DM doesn't "push" against (or displace) baryonic matter, nor does it appear to even "push" against itself at all (because it clumps). The interaction appears to be gravitational only -- so, billiard balls exchanging kinetic energy doesn't answer any 'outstanding questions', but rather introduces more, e.g., why would spacetime prefer to be filled with DM over baryons to the extent that one should "displace" the other? And shouldn't DM be distributed evenly if such were the case?
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
nor does it appear to even "push" against itself at all


'Galactic Pile-Up May Point to Mysterious New Dark Force in the Universe'
http://www.wired....k-force/

"The reason this is strange is that dark matter is thought to barely interact with itself. The dark matter should just coast through itself and move at the same speed as the hardly interacting galaxies. Instead, it looks like the dark matter is crashing into something — perhaps itself – and slowing down faster than the galaxies are. But this would require the dark matter to be able to interact with itself in a completely new an unexpected way, a "dark force" that affects only dark matter."

It's not a new force. It's the dark mass displaced by each of the galaxy clusters interacting analogous to the bow waves of two boats which pass by each other.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
And shouldn't DM be distributed evenly if such were the case?


It is evenly distributed. What you mistake for the DM not being evenly distributed is the state of displacement of the dark mass.

The Milky Way is not traveling along with a clump of dark matter. The Milky Way is moving through and displacing the dark mass. What you mistake for a clump of dark matter traveling along with the Milky Way is the state of displacement of the dark mass.

'The Milky Way's dark matter halo appears to be lopsided'
http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3802

"the emerging picture of the dark matter halo of the Milky Way is dominantly lopsided in nature."

The Milky Way's halo is lopsided due to the Milky Way moving through and displacing the dark mass. The Milky Way's halo is the state of displacement of the dark mass.

The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.
JeanTate
3.7 / 5 (12) Jun 25, 2015
@Ren82:
From history we know that every great fundamental discovery is made by researchers amateurs.
Unless you have a highly idiosyncratic idea of what a "research amateur" is, no. Einstein? Not an amateur. Diract, Fermi, Pauli, Heisenberg ...? no. Rutherford, Maxwell, the designers, builders, operators, etc of the LHC? Most certainly not amateurs
Professional scientists have no significant contribution to new useful knowledge
Well, I sincerely hope you never get cancer, especially one that can be effectively treated with 'targeted drug therapy'. The professional scientists who didn't discover these drugs could not ask your doctor to consider prescribing it, because they made no significant contribution to new useful knowledge. Not.
The explanation of this phenomenon lies in the fact that true scientists do not comply with the mainstream clichés and dogmas
Strawman assertion, ergo conclusion invalid
JeanTate
3.5 / 5 (11) Jun 25, 2015
@liquidspacetime:
My paper: [link]
Thanks.

Have you considered writing this up in a form suitable for submission to a relevant peer-reviewed journal? It won't be recognized as science - per PO's scope - unless and until you do. Also, in its current form, it's not really objective, and the key ideas certainly not independently verifiable. Also, I recommend that you start trying to quantify your idea; doing so will get you started on the road to 'independently verifiability'.

To be honest, what you present looks like pure pseudoscience; much of it little more than selective quote-mining of popsci (not primary) sources, and 'looks like a duck' logic.
JeanTate
3.5 / 5 (11) Jun 25, 2015
@liquidspacetime:
The Earth displaces the dark mass. The dark mass pushes back. The dark mass pushing back *is* gravity.
You have, at your disposal, at least three good 'tools' to turn this from hand waving into what may become science: Newton's law of universal gravity, Einstein's theory of General Relativity (GR), and the 19th to 21st century work by mathematicians on the nature of 'fields' (e.g. Quantum Field Theory).

Why don't you bone up on at least one of these, and try to cast your ideas into a more objective, independently veriable form?
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
and 'looks like a duck' logic.


In a boat double slit experiment are you able to understand the boat travels through a single slit even when you close your eyes?

It's no different for a double slit experiment performed with a particle. The particle travels through a single slit even when you don't observe it. It's the associated wave in the dark mass that passes through both.

It doesn't matter what is written until mainstream physicists are capable of understanding the particle is always detected traveling through a single slit in a double slit experiment because it *always* travels through a single slit.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
Einstein's theory of General Relativity (GR)


All you have to be able to understand is that the notion of dark matter as a clump of stuff traveling along with the matter is incorrect. Matter moves through and displaces the dark mass.

The Milky Way moves through and displaces the dark mass.

The Milky Way moves through and curves spacetime.

The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.

You have to *want* to correctly understand what occurs physically in nature in order to do so.
JeanTate
3.7 / 5 (12) Jun 25, 2015
@cd:
What is the basis for your claim a BH cannot exist?
"There are too many reasons.."!
What are the top three (3)?

1). Dividing by zero; the maths involved are flawed fundamentally and are complete nonsense. Many people have shown the maths to be incorrect but it has fallen on the deaf ears of a herd of incompetence.
Wilful ignorance, so sad.

First, there's no "division by zero" in the physics of black holes. Second, no one has "shown the maths to be incorrect", in a consistent, independently veriable way. You think otherwise? Evidence please, in the form of primary sources.
2) Infinite densities and point sources; These really belong in the maths portion
Correct. This is not a separate reason
but they're so ridiculous they deserve their own Mathematical constructs which are unfalsifiable and remain only on paper and in the minds of fanciful mathematicians
Strawman; mathematical constructs cannot be falsified, only proven wrong. Epic logic fail
JeanTate
3.5 / 5 (11) Jun 25, 2015
(continued)
3). Logic; Spacetime, gravity wells, warped space, extra dimensions, or event horizons, it's all just pseudoscientific metaphysical mumbo jumbo
Since when has a highly idiosyncratic, subjective expression of personal taste (plus a heavy dose of wilful ignorance) counted as "reason"?

cd, we all 'get it'; you personally don't like the idea of black holes, you think GR too esoteric (and the math incomprehensible), and so on. But how does this count as science?

You build a highly simplistic strawman, which has essentially zero correspondence to the reality of BHs in science, and then proceed to argue by incredulity. Can't you do better than this nonsense?
All you have is maths, and it's pathetically wrong. Too many reasons indeed!
Sad, such incredible, wilful ignorance :-(
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (8) Jun 25, 2015
In a boat double slit experiment are you able to understand the boat travels through a single slit even when you close your eyes?
@liquid
your understanding of the double slit experiment, QM and physics is limited by your pseudoscience influence and your lack of understanding of the math and reality behind QM

even human or other sized objects (any particle) have a wave function but as their mass in much higher than a photon or electron, their wave function is small, thus interference is limited - macro sized objects have no interference and almost no wave function

i suggest reading "The matchbox that ate a fourty-ton truck" by Marcus Chown for a better description of the double slit experiment: it is right up your alley and explained in the first 3 chapters while discussing why the electron doesn't spiral down into the nucleus of an atomic particle
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
your understanding of the double slit experiment, ...


It's not my understanding ... I just figured out what the "subquantic medium" is.

ON-LINEAR WAVE MECHANICS A CAUSAL INTERPRETATION by LOUIS DE BROGLIE

"the probability of presence ... arise from the interaction of the particle with a "subquantic medium" which escapes our observation and is entirely chaotic, and which is everywhere present in what we call "empty space"."

The "subquantic medium" is the dark mass.

It's as simple as understanding the particle is always detected traveling through a single slit in a double slit experiment because it *always* travels through a single slit. It is the associated wave in the dark mass which passes through both.
cantdrive85
2 / 5 (4) Jun 25, 2015
mathematical constructs cannot be falsified

We have common ground here, at least we both agree we aren't discussing science. Hence, my assertion GR, BB, and BH nonsense is fictional pseudoscientific metaphysical mumbo jumbo. I have no problem remaining "willfully ignorant" on such topics, I have never looked into the anatomy of unicorns or "quantified" how much gold the leprechauns keep at the end of the rainbow either.
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (7) Jun 25, 2015
It's not a new force. It's the dark mass displaced by each of the galaxy clusters interacting analogous to the bow waves of two boats which pass by each other.
Hard to tell as yet, but Kahlhoefer et al. have used observations of the 'Bullet Cluster', Abell 520, and the 'Musket Ball Cluster' and stated, "Our central observation is that the momentum transfer cross section sigma_T of DM self-interactions is insufficient to completely characterize the behavior of the system and the properties of the separation." See http://arxiv.org/abs/1308.3419
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
Hard to tell as yet, but Kahlhoefer et al. ...


'The Milky Way's dark matter halo appears to be lopsided'
http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3802

"the emerging picture of the dark matter halo of the Milky Way is dominantly lopsided in nature."

The Milky Way's halo is not a clump of dark matter traveling along with the Milky Way. The Milky Way's halo is lopsided due to the matter in the Milky Way moving through and displacing the dark mass.

'Offset between dark matter and ordinary matter: evidence from a sample of 38 lensing clusters of galaxies'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.1475

"Our data strongly support the idea that the gravitational potential in clusters is mainly due to a non-baryonic fluid, and any exotic field in gravitational theory must resemble that of CDM fields very closely."

The offset is due to the galaxy clusters moving through and displacing the dark mass analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water.
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (6) Jun 25, 2015
I have no problem remaining "willfully ignorant" on such topics,
And therein lies the problem - like saying, "I refute GR because I can't understand it, and refuse to even try."
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
Hard to tell as yet, but Kahlhoefer et al. ...


'Hubble Finds Ghostly Ring of Dark Matter'
http://www.nasa.g...ure.html

"The wreck created a ripple of dark matter, which is somewhat similar to a ripple formed in a pond when a rock hits the water."

The 'pond' consists of dark mass. The galaxy clusters are moving through and displacing the dark mass, analogous to the bow waves of two boats which pass by each other closely. The bow waves interact and create a ripple in the water. The ripple created when galaxy clusters collide is a wave in the dark mass.

liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
'The pilot-wave dynamics of walking droplets
https://www.youtu...0ygr08tE

'Yves Couder Explains Wave/Particle Duality via Silicon Droplets [Through the Wormhole]'
https://www.youtu...Wv5dqSKk

Wave-particle duality is a moving particle AND its associated wave in the dark mass.

What waves in a double slit experiment IS the dark mass.

Q. Why is the particle always detected traveling through a single slit in a double slit experiment?
A. The particle *always* travels through a single slit. It is the associated wave in the dark mass which passes through both.

What ripples when galaxy clusters collide is what waves in a double slit experiment; the dark mass.

Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality; both are waves in the dark mass.

Dark mass displaced by matter relates general relativity and quantum mechanics.
Noumenon
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
even human or other sized objects (any particle) have a wave function but as their mass in much higher than a photon or electron, their wave function is small, thus interference is limited - macro sized objects have no interference and almost no wave function


Your understanding of wave-functions, QM and physics is limited by your lack of understanding of the math and reality behind QM.

Please use the scientific method next time, and further if you wish to correct someone, please refrain from your insulting and condescending tone,... as it may back-fire on you....
….
Noumenon
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
….
You're confusing the de Broglie wave-length with the Schrodinger wave-function. Larger objects with more mass have corresponding smaller de Broglie wave-lengths,… not "smaller" Schrodinger wave-function's,…. thus it is not true as you stated that 1) large objects can have no interference, nor it is true that 2) large objects have "almost no wave function".

There is no known reason at present, why a large object could not in principal show quantum interference effects, IF appropriately isolated from environmental decoherence. In fact where, if anywhere, the quantum / macro cut would be is at present active research with larger and larger molecules, and mesoscopic objects.
Noumenon
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
Further, there is no reason apart from practicality, why a large object could not have a complete wave-function description irrespective of its de Broglie wavelength.

i suggest reading "The matchbox that ate a fourty-ton truck" by Marcus Chown for a better description of the double slit experiment: it is right up your alley and explained in the first 3 chapters while discussing why the electron doesn't spiral down into the nucleus of an atomic particle

I would suggest reading about the de Broglie–Bohm pilot-wave theory, as had you known about it you would have recognized immediately liquidspacetime's error was in associating DM with the 'pilot-wave',… not in his qualitative description and use of that valid mathematical theory,.. pilot-wave theory.

liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
….
You're confusing the de Broglie wave-length with the Schrodinger wave-function. Larger objects with more mass have corresponding smaller de Broglie wave-lengths,… not "smaller" Schrodinger wave-function's,…. thus it is not true as you stated that 1) large objects can have no interference, nor it is true that 2) large objects have "almost no wave function".

There is no known reason at present, why a large object could not in principal show quantum interference effects, IF appropriately isolated from environmental decoherence. In fact where, if anywhere, the quantum / macro cut would be is at present active research with larger and larger molecules, and mesoscopic objects.


Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality; both are waves in the dark mass.

Dark mass displaced by matter relates general relativity and quantum mechanics.
Benni
2 / 5 (4) Jun 25, 2015
@Jean T: Just curious here crickey mate, what is your most honest opinion about Dark Matter?
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
I would suggest reading about the de Broglie–Bohm pilot-wave theory ....


de Broglie-Bohm pilot-wave theory is incorrectly named as de Broglie disagreed with it.

NON-LINEAR WAVE MECHANICS A CAUSAL INTERPRETATION by LOUIS DE BROGLIE

"During the summer of 1951, there came to my attention ... a paper by David Bohm .... In this paper Bohm went back to my theory of the pilot-wave, considering the W wave as a physical reality ... My first reaction on reading Bohm's work was to reiterate, in a communication ... the objections, insurmountable in my opinion, that seemed to render impossible any attribution of physical reality to the W wave, and consequently, to render impossible the adoption of the pilot-wave theory."

I am discussing de Broglie's double solution theory where there is a physical wave which guides the particle and the wave-function wave which is fictitious and is only used to determine the probabilstic results of experiments.
Noumenon
1 / 5 (2) Jun 25, 2015
EDIT: Wrong Thread
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Jun 25, 2015
I am discussing de Broglie's double solution theory where there is a physical wave which guides the particle and the wave-function wave which is fictitious and is only used to determine the probabilstic results of experiments.

He abandoned his double solution theory on account of the acceptance of the Born rule, correct? Do you have a link to it, because I am not familiar with it.
Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality; both are waves in the dark mass.

Dark mass? Are you referring to dark matter and dark energy? If so they are not the same,… DM is localized (which in your context would require some weird standing wave around a galaxy) while DE is a factor of space-time as in the cosmological constant.
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (7) Jun 25, 2015
'Hubble Finds Ghostly Ring of Dark Matter'
http://www.nasa.g...ure.html
And this quote from that article contradicts your displacement assertion and supports no self-interaction (other than gravitational):

"The astronomers found previous research that suggested the cluster had collided with another cluster 1 to 2 billion years ago. They then created computer simulations of galaxy cluster collisions. The simulations show that when the two clusters smash together, the dark matter falls to the center of the combined cluster and sloshes back out. As the dark matter moves outward, it begins to slow down under the pull of gravity and pile up, like cars bunched up on a freeway."
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
He abandoned his double solution theory ..., correct?


Incorrect. He never abandoned the idea of there being a physical wave which guides the particle and an associated wave-function which is statistical, non-physical and only exists for determining the probabilistic results of experiments. He stopped working on the idea for a while.

Do you have a link to it, because I am not familiar with it.


I haven't been able to find "NON-LINEAR WAVE MECHANICS A CAUSAL INTERPRETATION by LOUIS DE BROGLIE" online for a while, which AFAIK is his last major work.

There is also this 'summary':

http://aflb.ensmp...p001.pdf

Dark mass? Are you referring to dark matter and dark energy?


The notion of dark matter is incorrect. 'Empty' space has mass which is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it, including 'particles' as large as galaxies and galaxy clusters.

The term 'dark mass' avoids the baggage of DM.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
And this quote from that article contradicts your displacement assertion and supports no self-interaction (other than gravitational):

"The simulations show that when the two clusters smash together, the dark matter falls to the center of the combined cluster and sloshes back out. As the dark matter moves outward, it begins to slow down under the pull of gravity and pile up, like cars bunched up on a freeway."


It falls to the center and sloshes back out exactly as the bow waves of two boats would do when the boats pass by each other closely.

You still haven't explained why the Milky Way's halo is lopsided or why there is an offset between the light lensing through the space neighboring galaxy clusters and the center of the galaxy clusters themselves.

Do you ever get tired of not understanding what relates general relativity and quantum mechanics?

Dark mass displaced by matter relates general relativity and quantum mechanics.
JeanTate
3.5 / 5 (13) Jun 25, 2015
@liquidspacetime: Are you the same person, presenting the same pseudoscience, as the 'liquidspacetime' in the ISF thread "In a double slit experiment it is the dark matter that waves"? link: http://www.intern...t=280132

If so, it seems to me you got an excellent chance to present, and defend, your ideas. And it also seems to me that those ideas do not have a scientific leg to stand on.

If so, why, may I ask, are you using PO to promote this debunked idea?
JeanTate
3.5 / 5 (13) Jun 25, 2015
@Ren82:
Do not rush for new discoveries first because have no honest scientific approach, often ignoring the facts in the name of their favorite theories, and because imposed dogmas wear regular income for them
A grand set of highly insulting words. Not backed by anything other than, what, a strong personal opinion? Haven't you got anything more concrete to offer?
So when someone claim that black holes are real objects first must prove that the vacuum of space has infinite gravitational and electromagnetic permeability if the gravity is force field at all
Why should they do that, Ren82? Simply because you say so? What is the basis for your claim, may I ask (other than a personal, pet theory of the universe)?
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
@JeanTate Are you able to understand in a boat double slit experiment the boat travels through a single slit even when you close your eyes?

Now, I realize you are going to insist the behaviors in a double slit experiment are not that simple. However, they are.

In a double slit experiment the particle *always* travels through a single slit. It is the associated wave in the dark mass which passes through both.
JeanTate
3.7 / 5 (12) Jun 25, 2015
@cd:
We have common ground here, at least we both agree we aren't discussing science.
Indeed. Mathematics and science work to different standards; 'proof' is essential in the former, impossible in the latter.
Hence, my assertion GR, BB, and BH nonsense is fictional pseudoscientific metaphysical mumbo jumbo
Thanks for being so open about your anti-science stance; I long suspected you of being so strongly against doing any scientific research
I have no problem remaining "willfully ignorant" on such topics
Then why hang out here? You seem to have no desire to learn anything (re science or mathematics, it seems), you yourself have admitted being willfully ignorant (so have nothing to teach), and a large part of what you write is about promoting an anti-science, pseudo-religious cult ("the electric universe")
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Jun 25, 2015
I haven't been able to find "NON-LINEAR WAVE MECHANICS A CAUSAL INTERPRETATION by LOUIS DE BROGLIE" online for a while, which AFAIK is his last major work.

So, does that mean he adds a non-linear term to the Schrodinger equation to effect an objective wave-function collapse? Is it like Penroses' objective reduction (OR) or other gravitational college theories,.... or am I reading to much coherency into this? What is dark mass if not DM or DE?
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (8) Jun 25, 2015
It falls to the center and sloshes back out exactly as the bow waves of two boats would do when the boats pass by each other closely.
Bad analogy, because the water comes back together after the boats displace it - you see waves propagating outwards but not the water.
You still haven't explained why the Milky Way's halo is lopsided
Sure I did, when I cited the preprint from Kahlhoefer et al., did you not read it? - it depends on what the distribution of matter was to start with more so than the momentum transfer cross-section sigma_T. And the characterization of the self-interaction is up to you to explain, as is providing evidence of relative motions of the Milky Way's baryonic matter into the DM in support of your "bow waves" analogy.
Do you ever get tired of not understanding what relates general relativity and quantum mechanics?
The desire to learn and understand is pretty strong motivation. People with ideas whose numbers don't add up gets to wearing thin.
Noumenon
not rated yet Jun 25, 2015
EDIT : "Is it like Penroses' objective reduction (OR) or other gravitational [collapse] theories"
cantdrive85
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
Thanks for being so anti-science stance; I long suspected you of being so strongly against doing any scientific research


You've got it exactly backwards, it's you who is anti-science, pro maths. Stop with the duplicity and lies already, it's not becoming. I am a strong proponent of scientific research, hence my preference fro the lab based Plasma Cosmology, not mathematical gymnastics.

Then why hang out here?

I wonder myself sometimes, PhysOrg claims to be a science outlet but there is a steady flow of pseudoscientific metaphysical mumbo jumbo such as the above. I feel I've got to point out to the newbies the abomination of science going on here.

You seem to have no desire to learn

I've learned a great deal about real science, and I've learned there is a great deal of nonsensical mumbo jumbo that many claim to be science, such as your maths based fictions.

admitted being willfully ignorant

You must be an expert on unicorns too!
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015
Bad analogy, because the water comes back together after the boats displace it - you see waves propagating outwards but not the water.


In the quote you posted it uses the term 'sloshes' to describe what is occurring. In the quote I posted it uses the analogy of a stone being dropped into a pond causing a ripple.

It's like you are insisting the bow wave of a boat is traveling along with as a clump of stuff analogous to the boat's steering wheel.

The boats move through and displace the water. As the boats move past one another the water piles-up and the SLOSHES back out. The water RIPPLES.

Sure I did, when I cited the preprint from Kahlhoefer et al., ...


That article had to do with the article referring to the 'dark matter' interacting with itself.

I'm discussing the article where the Milky Way's halo is lopsided. The Milky Way's halo is lopsided due to the matter in the Milky Way moving through and displacing the dark mass.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2015

So, does that mean he adds a non-linear term to the Schrodinger equation to effect an objective wave-function collapse? Is it like Penroses' objective reduction (OR) or other gravitational college theories,.... or am I reading to much coherency into this? What is dark mass if not DM or DE?


DM is thought to be a clump of stuff traveling along with the Milky Way. That notion is incorrect.

You understand the bow wave of a boat is not a clump of water traveling along with the boat analogous to the steering wheel of the boat moving along with the boat, correct? You understand the boat moves through and DISPLACES the water, correct?

We are discussing two very different concepts. One is the DM moves with the Milky Way as a clump of stuff. The other is the Milky Way moves through and displaces the dark mass, like a boat through water.

The Milky Way moves THROUGH and DISPLACES the dark mass.
RealityCheck
2 / 5 (4) Jun 25, 2015
Hi Protoplasmix, liquidspacetime. :)
It falls to the center and sloshes back out exactly as the bow waves of two boats would do when the boats pass by each other closely.
Bad analogy, because the water comes back together after the boats displace it - you see waves propagating outwards but not the water.
Just an observation re the analogy used in your discussion, guys. It bears remembering that the dynamics of water on the Earth involves two boundary constraints, a 'free surface' which may intrude into the thinner atmosphere, and a 'bottom surface' pressing against a rigid crust layer. So the analogy by liquidspacetime should be understood in the ubiquitous/contiguous 'space distribution' of whatever liquidspacetime calls 'dark mass'. It won't behave as water on Earth, but as a ubiquitous UNbounded medium, not a Bounded one like ocean on earth.

I've no other comment. Just wanted to point out such analogies should be understood/extrapolated in free space context.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 25, 2015
Just an observation re the analogy used in your discussion, guys. It bears remembering that the dynamics of water on the Earth involves two boundary constraints, a 'free surface' which may intrude into the thinner atmosphere, and a 'bottom surface' pressing against a rigid crust layer.


The analogy of a submarine moving through and displacing the water is more correct in some respects.

'Offset between dark matter and ordinary matter: evidence from a sample of 38 lensing clusters of galaxies'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.1475

"Our data strongly support the idea that the gravitational potential in clusters is mainly due to a non-baryonic fluid, and any exotic field in gravitational theory must resemble that of CDM fields very closely."

The galaxy clusters are moving through and displacing the dark mass, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water; that's why there is an offset.

In the analogy the water is the non-baryonic fluid.
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (6) Jun 25, 2015
The galaxy clusters are moving through and displacing the dark mass, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water; that's why there is an offset.
Ahh. So how much energy does it take to displace the DM, and why does an object in motion stay in motion through it instead of coming to rest (as a sub would in water when it runs out of fuel)?
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 25, 2015
why does an object in motion stay in motion through it instead of coming to rest (as a sub would in water when it runs out of fuel)?


The dark mass is, or behaves similar to, a supersolid. By definition, there is no loss of energy in the interaction of an object and a supersolid.

You are in a bowling alley filled with a supersolid. You roll the bowling ball. The bowling ball displaces the supersolid. The supersolid displaces the bowling ball as it 'displaces back'. There is no loss of energy in the interaction of the bowling ball and the supersolid and the bowling ball rolls on forever through the supersolid.

Q. Is the bowling ball displacing the supersolid or is the supersolid displacing the bowling ball?
A. Both are occurring simultaneously with equal force.
Benni
1.7 / 5 (6) Jun 25, 2015
Then why hang out here? You seem to have no desire to learn anything (re science or mathematics, it seems), you yourself have admitted being willfully ignorant (so have nothing to teach), and a large part of what you write is about promoting an anti-science, pseudo-religious cult ("the electric universe")


@JT.........hey, at least he's talking about subject material of interest to some. All you do is embark on tirades telling everybody to either write a paper & get it published............or, you tell them that their challenges to your assertions are too long to be addressed in less than 1000 characters.

So let's just give it another try shall we, you only need a 2-3 character response. Do you JT believe in the existence of Dark Matter? It's YES or NO. And please JT, don't respond with imploring me to write a paper & get it published, I'm on to that silly game.
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (4) Jun 25, 2015
The dark mass is, or behaves similar to, a supersolid
O_o

From boats to subs to bowling balls, it sounds like you're making things up as you go along. Let's see. How does your "bow waves" analogy compare to this post from Jack Sarfatti over at The Math Forum @ Drexel: "Invariants of Emergent 4D Supersolid Gravity"
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 25, 2015
Boats, subs and bowling balls all displace the medium they are moving through, just like the Milky Way moves through and displaces the dark mass.

The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.
TehDog
5 / 5 (5) Jun 25, 2015
"Boats, subs and bowling balls all displace the medium they are moving through, just like the Milky Way moves through and displaces the dark mass."

I'm curious, does this produce any turbulence? A vessel (sub or surface) will have a turbulent wake, and it can be observed. Are there any artifacts in lensing observations that could be inferred as being "turbulent"?
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 25, 2015
I'm curious, does this produce any turbulence?


The 'turbulence' is the chaotic nature of the dark mass. What is incorrectly attributed to virtual particles is actually caused by the chaotic nature of the dark mass.

https://en.wikipe...fect.ogv

NON-LINEAR WAVE MECHANICS A CAUSAL INTERPRETATION by LOUIS DE BROGLIE

"the probability of presence ... arise from the interaction of the particle with a "subquantic medium" which escapes our observation and is entirely chaotic, and which is everywhere present in what we call "empty space"."

The "subquantic medium" is the dark mass.

'Fluid mechanics suggests alternative to quantum orthodoxy'
http://newsoffice...ics-0912

"The fluidic pilot-wave system is also chaotic."

A "fluidic pilot-wave system" is the dark mass.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (1) Jun 25, 2015
'When Fluid Dynamics Mimic Quantum Mechanics'
http://www.scienc...1934.htm

"If you have a system that is deterministic and is what we call in the business 'chaotic,' or sensitive to initial conditions, sensitive to perturbations, then it can behave probabilistically," Milewski continues. "Experiments like this weren't available to the giants of quantum mechanics. They also didn't know anything about chaos. Suppose these guys — who were puzzled by why the world behaves in this strange probabilistic way — actually had access to experiments like this and had the knowledge of chaos, would they have come up with an equivalent, deterministic theory of quantum mechanics, which is not the current one? That's what I find exciting from the quantum perspective."

What waves in a double slit experiment is the dark mass.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 25, 2015
In case it wasn't clear the link was to a video titled, "Water wave analogue of Casimir effect", which represents the chaotic nature of, the 'turbulence' associated with, the dark mass.

'Water wave analogue of Casimir effect'
https://en.wikipe...fect.ogv
TehDog
5 / 5 (7) Jun 25, 2015
" Are there any artifacts in lensing observations that could be inferred as being "turbulent"?"

I see nothing in your last three posts that answers that question.
Please explain the relevance of the Casimir effect to my question.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 26, 2015
AFAIK, the turbulence associated with the dark mass has nothing to do with lensing. Lensing is caused by the state of displacement of the dark mass.

The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.

The sun causes light from distant galaxies to lense around it due to it curving spacetime.

The sun causes light from distant galaxies to lense around it due to it displacing the dark mass.

The turbulence associated with the dark mass is otherwise referred to as chaos theory.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Jun 26, 2015
NON-LINEAR WAVE MECHANICS A CAUSAL INTERPRETATION by LOUIS DE BROGLIE

"the probability of presence ... arise from the interaction of the particle with a "subquantic medium" which escapes our observation and is entirely chaotic, and which is everywhere present in what we call "empty space"."

The "subquantic medium" is the dark mass.


If one invokes unobserved entities as a basis for a new theory, they are doing mathematics (your 'subquantic medium' dark mass, string theory), .... while if one invokes unobserved entities on the basis that present theory predicts them to exist, they are doing physics (DE, DM, anti-matter).
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 26, 2015
If one invokes unobserved entities as a basis for a new theory, they are doing mathematics (your 'subquantic medium' dark mass, string theory), .... while if one invokes unobserved entities on the basis that present theory predicts them to exist, they are doing physics (DE, DM, anti-matter).


Or, you could correctly understand what relates general relativity and quantum mechanics.

All you have to do is correctly understand particles of matter move through and displace the dark mass, including 'particles' as large as galaxy clusters.

There is evidence of the dark mass every time a double slit experiment is performed; it's what waves.

What ripples when galaxy clusters collide is what waves in a double slit experiment; the dark mass.

Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality; both are waves in the dark mass.

Dark mass displaced by matter relates general relativity and quantum mechanics.
Noumenon
not rated yet Jun 26, 2015
Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality; both are waves in the dark mass.

Well, I don't know how you can reconcile the obvious difference in energy an electron matter wave represents with, the gravitational wave an electron would cause,... not to mention that gravitational waves are quadruple transverse,.... whilst Schrodinger wavefunction (even if taken as a physical wave) would operate differently wrt interference effects,....
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 26, 2015
Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality; both are waves in the dark mass.

Well, I don't know how you can reconcile the obvious difference in energy an electron matter wave represents with, the gravitational wave an electron would cause,... not to mention that gravitational waves are quadruple transverse,.... whilst Schrodinger wavefunction (even if taken as a physical wave) would operate differently wrt interference effects,....


Electrons do not generate gravitational waves, quarks do.
JeanTate
3.5 / 5 (11) Jun 26, 2015
@Benni:
@Jean T: Just curious here crickey mate, what is your most honest opinion about Dark Matter?
From the papers I've read, there's little that's inconsistent with the existence of a form of mass/matter that's 'cold' (i.e. is not moving at relativistic speeds, wrt local frames such as galaxies), and 'dark' (i.e. does not interact via the electromagnetic force), and that it comprises ~80% of the matter in the observable universe.

On the other hand, there's a real possibility that the 'gravity' of GR may not be fully consistent with all relevant data, and that 'CDM' may be the signature of 'gravity on large scales', a sorta anomalous advance of the perihelion of Mercury. Unfortunately, no one has yet - so it seems to me - formulated a different description of 'gravity' that is fully consistent with all relevant observations (not to mention internally consistent). The relativity-including extensions of MOND are interesting, but not yet successful
JeanTate
3.3 / 5 (12) Jun 26, 2015
@Ren82: I would recommend that you hang out with some scientists, and read up on the history of science.
But there is infinity only in mathematics. Not in our real physical world.
Actually no. Every time you turn on your CD player, part of it goes through a state which can be described - mathematically - as "infinity"

Surprised? Read up on the fundamentals of thermodynamics, and in particular the definition of 'temperature'. Then check out what happens when a laser - such as that in your CD player - gets switched on.
Benni
1.7 / 5 (6) Jun 26, 2015
@Benni:
@Jean T: what is your most honest opinion about Dark Matter?
From the papers I've read, there's little that's inconsistent with the existence of a form of mass/matter that's 'cold' (i.e. is not moving at relativistic speeds, wrt local frames such as galaxies), and 'dark' (i.e. does not interact via the electromagnetic force), and that it comprises ~80% of the matter in the observable universe.

On the other hand, there's a real possibility that the 'gravity' of GR may not be fully consistent with all relevant data, and that 'CDM' may be the signature of 'gravity on large scales', a sorta anomalous advance of the perihelion of Mercury. Unfortunately, no one has yet so it seems to me formulated a different description of 'gravity' that is fully consistent with all relevant observations (not to mention internally consistent). The relativity-including extensions of MOND are interesting, but not yet successful


.....is all this a YES or a NO to the question ?

cantdrive85
2 / 5 (4) Jun 26, 2015
@Jean T:

.....is all this a YES or a NO to the question?

As he's said numerous times, his thoughts and opinions are of no value whatsoever, completely meaningless! The non-answer he produced above only solidifies his own assessment.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Jun 26, 2015
Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality; both are waves in the dark mass.

Well, I don't know how you can reconcile the obvious difference in energy an electron matter wave represents with, the gravitational wave an electron would cause,... not to mention that gravitational waves are quadruple transverse,.... whilst Schrodinger wavefunction (even if taken as a physical wave) would operate differently wrt interference effects,....


Electrons do not generate gravitational waves, quarks do.


Why not? All forms of mass-energy would according to GR, produce gravitational waves (in principle),.... but in any case, you didn't answer my question, wrt relating gravitational wave, de Broglie matter-wave, and interfere in two slit experiment.
Benni
1.8 / 5 (5) Jun 26, 2015
@Jean T:
.....is all this a YES or a NO to the question?


As he's said numerous times, his thoughts and opinions are of no value whatsoever, completely meaningless! The non-answer he produced above only solidifies his own assessment.


....more like when he comes to a fork in the road he takes the fork.
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (6) Jun 26, 2015
The dark mass is, or behaves similar to, a supersolid
The turbulence associated with the dark mass is otherwise referred to as chaos theory.
Am guessing it's pointless to ask if you have a guiding equation (or Hamiltonian even) for chaotic turbulence of a supersolid. Because if I understand you correctly, a bowling ball displaces the dark mass, and the displaced mass *is* spacetime curvature, and the displaced mass relates general relativity and quantum mechanics.
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (3) Jun 26, 2015
If one invokes unobserved entities as a basis for a new theory, they are doing mathematics (your 'subquantic medium' dark mass, string theory), .... while if one invokes unobserved entities on the basis that present theory predicts them to exist, they are doing physics (DE, DM, anti-matter).
Are you saying string theory isn't based on physics? I think it's been shown that it's not wrong, and the worst criticism I've seen is that it's too abundantly right. Experiments at the LHC, and soon aLIGOs and LISA will be invaluable for settling the matter...
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (1) Jun 27, 2015
you didn't answer my question, wrt relating gravitational wave, de Broglie matter-wave, and interfere in two slit experiment.


'Matter waves in a gravitational field: An index of refraction for massive
particles in general relativity'
http://www2.ups.e...vity.pdf

"The gravitational wave optics of massive and massless particles differ only in a dispersion effect"

'GRAVITATIONALWAVES AND QUANTUM THEORY'
http://ej.kubagro...f/78.pdf

"it can be assumed that the gravitational waves are associated with waves of matter, the existence of which was first pointed out de Broglie"

''The amplitude of the de Broglie Gravitational Waves''
http://arxiv.org/...52v1.pdf

"A recent proposal consists in considering the de Broglie waves of one particle
quantum mechanics as a special kind of Gravitational Waves"
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 27, 2015
Am guessing it's pointless to ask if you have a guiding equation (or Hamiltonian even) for chaotic turbulence of a supersolid. Because if I understand you correctly, a bowling ball displaces the dark mass, and the displaced mass *is* spacetime curvature, and the displaced mass relates general relativity and quantum mechanics.


You understand correctly. The wave of wave-particle duality is a displacement wave in the dark mass.

'Hamiltonian Systems and Chaos Overview'
http://www.math.c...gger.pdf

https://en.wikipe...n_system

"Poincaré showed for the first time that it exhibits deterministic chaos."

'Hamiltonian structure of hamiltonian chaos'
http://arxiv.org/...06v1.pdf

Noumenon
not rated yet Jun 27, 2015
If one invokes unobserved entities as a basis for a new theory, they are doing mathematics (your 'subquantic medium' dark mass, string theory), .... while if one invokes unobserved entities on the basis that present theory predicts them to exist, they are doing physics (DE, DM, anti-matter).
Are you saying string theory isn't based on physics? I think it's been shown that it's not wrong, and the worst criticism I've seen is that it's too abundantly right.


If Archimedes was a string theorist he would have said,.... 'grant me enough degrees of freedom, and a parallel world in which to stand [10^500 solutions], and I could explain everything , especially everything that doesn't exist.'

Physics is supposed to link observabes causally via some mathematical structure as a model to allow for predictions, ....not to be the mathematical structure itself.

If it becomes an empirical science then I will become more interested I guess.

JeanTate
3.3 / 5 (12) Jun 27, 2015
@Benni:
.....is all this a YES or a NO to the question ?
You decide; what I wrote is an answer to your question:
what is your most honest opinion about Dark Matter?
What part of what I wrote did you not understand, may I ask?
JeanTate
3.5 / 5 (11) Jun 27, 2015
@liquidspacetime: Suppose all the world's telescopes were made available exclusively to you, including all their instruments.

What observational research program would you undertake, to test your ideas? Also, how would that research program actually test your ideas? Please be as specific and detailed as you can.
JeanTate
3.5 / 5 (11) Jun 27, 2015
@cantdrive85:
I am a strong proponent of scientific research, hence my preference fro the lab based Plasma Cosmology, not mathematical gymnastics.
And yet you are unwilling to discuss SAFIRE? And yet even Peratt's "Physics of the Plasma Universe" is chock-a-block full of "mathematical gymnastics" (I assume you have a copy on your bookshelf)? Not to mention Alfven's papers.

So, since you are such a strong proponent of empirical science, I'll ask you the same question I asked lst: Suppose all the world's telescopes were made available exclusively to you, including all their instruments.

What observational research program would you undertake, to test your plasma cosmology ideas? Also, how would that research program actually test your plasma cosmology ideas? Please be as specific and detailed as you can.
JeanTate
3.5 / 5 (11) Jun 27, 2015
@Ren82:
Or can be not described as infinity which depends of the degree of understanding of reality. It is well known that some people are better researchers and mathematicians than others.
If you take that approach, I guess you are happy to give up your GPS, because it cannot possibly work as designed. Yet it does! How do you explain that, Ren82? Is it some form of magic?

Back to infinities in nature: please find a good book on thermodynamics, and find the section which discusses, and defines, temperature. When you've done that, we can proceed.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 27, 2015
What observational research program would you undertake, to test your ideas?


I would use the worlds telescopes to determine if the Milky Way's halo is centered or lopsided. If the halo is lopsided it is evidence the Milky Way is moving through and displacing the dark mass.

'The Milky Way's dark matter halo appears to be lopsided'
http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3802

"the emerging picture of the dark matter halo of the Milky Way is dominantly lopsided in nature."

Is there an offset between the light lensing through the space neighboring galaxy clusters and the center of the galaxy clusters themselves? This would be evidence the clusters are moving through and displacing the dark mass, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water.

'Offset between dark matter and ordinary matter: evidence from a sample of 38 lensing clusters of galaxies'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.1475

"the gravitational potential in clusters is mainly due to a non-baryonic fluid"
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 27, 2015
What observational research program would you undertake, to test your ideas?


I would determine if the dark mass behaves in unexpected ways. For example, does it interact with itself which refutes the notion of dark matter.

'Galactic Pile-Up May Point to Mysterious New Dark Force in the Universe'
http://www.wired....k-force/

"But this would require the dark matter to be able to interact with itself in a completely new an unexpected way, a "dark force" that affects only dark matter."

I would determine if the dark mass ripples, analogous to a stone dropped into a pond.

'Hubble Finds Ghostly Ring of Dark Matter'
http://www.nasa.g...ure.html

"which is somewhat similar to a ripple formed in a pond when a rock hits the water."
Benni
1.7 / 5 (6) Jun 27, 2015
@Benni:
.....is all this a YES or a NO to the question ?
You decide; what I wrote is an answer to your question:
what is your most honest opinion about Dark Matter?
What part of what I wrote did you not understand, may I ask?


It's simple JT, you only need to provide answers to questions I'm asking, you know, like "Do you believe in the existence of Dark Matter", YES or NO, but you equivocate all over the place with meaningless incoherence.

So, is it YES or NO? Do you believe in the existence of Dark Matter?
docile
Jun 27, 2015
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
JeanTate
3.5 / 5 (11) Jun 27, 2015
@docile:
Back to reality - why the above picture is asymmetric? How the "left side" is defined for a black hole?
The simulated BH is rotating, that changes the appearance of the event horizon for external observers (not 'rotating' at the same 'speed'). All standard GR, straight from the textbook ...
JeanTate
3.4 / 5 (10) Jun 27, 2015
@Benni:
It's simple JT, you only need to provide answers to questions I'm asking ...
which I did.
So, is it YES or NO? Do you believe in the existence of Dark Matter?
You gonna have to help me out here, Benni: are you asking if "Dark Matter" is part of some religious belief I have? Or is your question more along the lines of "Do you believe in love?"

To be clear, you question seems to me to be vague and imprecise, to the point of near-unintelligibility.
Benni
1.6 / 5 (7) Jun 27, 2015
@Benni:
It's simple JT, you only need to provide answers to questions I'm asking ...
which I did.
Then point out where you've stated YES or NO?

So, is it YES or NO? Do you believe in the existence of Dark Matter?
You gonna have to help me out here, Benni: are you asking if "Dark Matter" is part of some religious belief I have? Or is your question more along the lines of "Do you believe in love?"


you question seems to me to be vague and imprecise, to the point of near-unintelligibility.


Well then here it is again, don't over-read the question & it will be totally intelligible even to you:

Is it YES or NO? Do you believe in the existence of Dark Matter?
cantdrive85
1 / 5 (2) Jun 28, 2015
which I did.
Then point out where you've stated YES or NO?
So, is it YES or NO? Do you believe in the existence of Dark Matter?
You gonna have to help me out here, Benni: are you asking if "Dark Matter" is part of some religious belief I have? Or is your question more along the lines of "Do you believe in love?"
you question seems to me to be vague and imprecise, to the point of near-unintelligibility.
Well then here it is again, don't over-read the question & it will be totally intelligible even to you:
Is it YES or NO? Do you believe in the existence of Dark Matter?

It's pretty clear from his/her/it's responses that he/she/it is a DM believer. That's what a majority of the "primary sources" currently purport, so as a "good scientist" that's what he/she/it will believe. Apparently science is a popularity contest.
BTW, try rephrasing from "believe" to "think" and you may get an answer, then again knowing it's history, unlikely.
JeanTate
3.7 / 5 (12) Jun 28, 2015
@Benni (and cd):
Is it YES or NO? Do you believe in the existence of Dark Matter?
You know, some YES/NO questions simply make no sense (e.g. "Do colorless green dreams sleep furiously?"). Others are (deliberate) traps (e.g. "Have you stopped beating your wife?")

Then there's physics; for example "Is light a particle, YES on NO?" Or, in Benni terms, "Do you believe in the existence of 'light waves', YES or NO?"

But all questions have a context, and the person asking the question has motives, purposes, intents, etc (Benni, do you believe in the existence of 'Benni motives', YES or NO?).

Having already answered your question - about as well as I could, given just 1k characters - I'm left wondering why you are persisting with your (pretty incomprehensible, to me) Y/N question?

@cd: it depends on my mood ... ;-)
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (5) Jun 28, 2015
You understand correctly.
I'd like to think so, and you dodged the question. Hamiltonian system for chaos, check. Supersolid, check. My question rephrased is, how could a supersolid possibly be turbulent or chaotic? Because then it's not very supersolid. At all.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 28, 2015
how could a supersolid possibly be turbulent or chaotic? Because then it's not very supersolid.


'Ether and the Theory of Relativity - Albert Einstein'
http://www.tu-har...her.html

"Since according to our present conceptions the elementary particles of matter are also, in their essence, nothing else than condensations of the electromagnetic field"

Particles of matter are condensations of dark mass.

'DOES THE INERTIA OF A BODY DEPEND UPON ITS ENERGY-CONTENT?' A. EINSTEIN
http://www.fourmi..._mc2.pdf

"If a body gives off the energy L in the form of radiation, its mass diminishes by L/c2."

The mass of the body does diminish. However, the mass still exists. Matter evaporates into dark mass. As it evaporates it expands into neighboring places; which is energy.

When a nuclear bomb explodes matter evaporates into dark mass. The evaporation is energy. Mass is conserved
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 28, 2015
you dodged the question.


Just ask your question, or don't. Lose the tone.

My question rephrased is, how could a supersolid possibly be turbulent or chaotic? Because then it's not very supersolid. At all.


https://en.wikipe...persolid

"A supersolid is a spatially ordered material with superfluid properties."

It can be spatially order AND turbulent. The water between the two plates is more at relativistic rest than the water encompassing the plates. The water between the plates is less turbulent, less chaotic.

https://upload.wi...fect.ogv
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 28, 2015
The water between the plates is just more spatially ordered than the water encompassing the plates.

'Ether and the Theory of Relativity by Albert Einstein'
http://www-groups...her.html

"If the existence of such floats for tracking the motion of the particles of a fluid were a fundamental impossibility in physics - if, in fact nothing else whatever were observable than the shape of the space occupied by the water as it varies in time, we should have no ground for the assumption that water consists of movable particles. But all the same we could characterise it as a medium."

if, in fact nothing else whatever were observable than the shape of the space occupied by the dark mass as it varies in time, we should have no ground for the assumption that dark mass consists of movable particles. But all the same we could characterise it as a medium having mass which is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 28, 2015
Einstein defines motion in terms of the ether as individual particles which can be separately tracked through time. Einstein is not saying the ether does, or does not, consist of particles. Only that it does not consist of particles which can be individually tracked through time.

This does not mean the ether can't be displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it. It also does not mean it can't be turbulent/chaotic. It also doesn't mean it can't be more, or less, at relativistic rest (i.e. spatially ordered). It certainly doesn't mean it can't have mass.
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (4) Jun 28, 2015
@liquid, let's try this: using the dark mass displaced by the sun, which photon gets deflected more going through it, an x-ray photon or an infrared photon, and why?
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 28, 2015
@Proto, let's try this: What part of the state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime are you unable to understand, and why not?
JeanTate
3.2 / 5 (9) Jun 28, 2015
@liquidspacetime:
[me]What observational research program would you undertake, to test your ideas?
I would determine if the dark mass behaves in unexpected ways. For example, does it interact with itself which refutes the notion of dark matter
OK, but what telescopes would you use? Where would you point them? How would you reduce/analyze the data to show how "dark mass behaves in unexpected ways"?

As there are quite a few models of DM which have it self-interacting, how would you distinguish these from your ideas?
I would determine if the dark mass ripples, analogous to a stone dropped into a pond
OK, but what telescopes would you use? Where would you point them? How would you reduce/analyze the data to show "if the dark mass ripples, analogous to a stone dropped into a pond"?
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 28, 2015
OK, but what telescopes would you use? Where would you point them? How would you reduce/analyze the data to show how "dark mass behaves in unexpected ways"?


In order to determine if the Milky Way's halo is lopsided or not, I would use the telescopes they used to determine the Milky Way's halo is lopsided.

'The Milky Way's dark matter halo appears to be lopsided'
http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3802

To determine if there is an offset between the light lensing through the space neighboring galaxy clusters and the center of the galaxy clusters themselves I would use the telescopes they used to determine there is an offset between the light lensing through the space neighboring galaxy clusters and the center of the galaxy clusters themselves.

'Offset between dark matter and ordinary matter: evidence from a sample of 38 lensing clusters of galaxies'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.1475
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 28, 2015
OK, but what telescopes would you use? Where would you point them? How would you reduce/analyze the data to show "if the dark mass ripples, analogous to a stone dropped into a pond"?


I would use NASA's Hubble Space Telescope telescope which is what they used to determine the dark mass ripples.

'Hubble Finds Ghostly Ring of Dark Matter'
http://www.nasa.g...ure.html

"Astronomers using NASA's Hubble Space Telescope got a first-hand view of how dark matter behaves during a titanic collision between two galaxy clusters. The wreck created a ripple of dark matter, which is somewhat similar to a ripple formed in a pond when a rock hits the water."
JeanTate
3.2 / 5 (9) Jun 28, 2015
@liquidspacetime:
I would use NASA's Hubble Space Telescope telescope which is what they used to determine the dark mass ripples
You are reporting on a series of observations already made, not new ones you would undertake. What new observations would you make?

Whatever. Given how radical your ideas are, what analyses did you do to convince yourself that Jee+'s analyses are correct? What *quantitative* analyses did you do to show that these 'dark mass ripples' are consistent with your ideas? Have your written up your analyses and published them?
JeanTate
3.2 / 5 (9) Jun 28, 2015
@lst:
In order to determine if the Milky Way's halo is lopsided or not, I would use the telescopes they used to determine the Milky Way's halo is lopsided. [...] To determine if there is an offset between the light lensing through the space neighboring galaxy clusters and the center of the galaxy clusters themselves I would use the telescopes they used to determine there is an offset between the light lensing through the space neighboring galaxy clusters and the center of the galaxy clusters themselves.
Same sets of questions: what *new* observations would you make? Which lenses? Which clusters? Etc.

What *quantitative* analyses have you done, to show that the analyses of Saha+ and Shan+ are correct? What analyses have you done to show that these observational results are consistent - quantitatively - with your ideas?

Etc
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 28, 2015
You are reporting on a series of observations already made ...


Correct. I'm reporting on evidence 'empty' space has mass which is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it, including 'particles' as large as galaxies and galaxy clusters.

Why does there need to be new evidence when the existing evidence can't even be understood correctly in terms of what actually occurs physically in nature?
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 28, 2015
Same sets of questions: what *new* observations would you make?


Why aren't you, and mainstream physics, able to understand the existing evidence is evidence galaxies and galaxy clusters move through and displace the dark mass?
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (4) Jun 28, 2015
@Proto, let's try this: What part of the state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime are you unable to understand, and why not?
The part where spacetime is evenly distributed and DM clumps, for starters.

And why are you unable to characterize the interaction between your "displaced mass" and light, with respect to photons of different energies? Can you provide an index of refraction for your "displaced massive chaotically turbulent supersolidified medium"?
liquidspacetime
2 / 5 (4) Jun 28, 2015
The part where spacetime is evenly distributed and DM clumps, for starters.


What you think of as DM clumps is actually the state of displacement of the dark mass. What you think of as DM clumps is actually curved spacetime.

And why are you unable to characterize the interaction between your "displaced mass" and light, with respect to photons of different energies? Can you provide an index of refraction for your "displaced massive chaotically turbulent supersolidified medium"?


And why are you unable to characterize the interaction between curved spacetime and light, with respect to photons of different energies? Can you provide an index of refraction for curved spacetime? It's the same index of the state of displacement for the dark mass as the state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.
JeanTate
3.2 / 5 (11) Jun 28, 2015
@lst:
Why does there need to be new evidence when the existing evidence can't even be understood correctly in terms of what actually occurs physically in nature?
Well, if it's your idea that you're referring to ("the existing evidence can't even be understood correctly in terms of what actually occurs physically in nature"), because you have failed - rather spectacularly I might add - to show, objectively and in an independently verifiable manner, that your idea is consistent with "existing evidence" ... in a *quantitative* way
Why aren't you, and mainstream physics, able to understand the existing evidence is evidence galaxies and galaxy clusters move through and displace the dark mass?
See above ... but why do you think you have failed, so spectacularly?

PO is, of course, not a good place to discuss your ideas (1k char limit? ha!), but ISF is ... and you abandoned discussion there ... why?
JeanTate
3.2 / 5 (11) Jun 28, 2015
@lst: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you have not presented anything, here or in the many other fora you've posted your ideas on, that goes beyond mere word salad/hand-waving/etc, right?
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 28, 2015
because you have failed - rather spectacularly I might add - to show, objectively and in an independently verifiable manner, that your idea is consistent with "existing evidence" ... in a *quantitative* way


There is evidence my idea is correct every time a double slit experiment is performed; it's the dark mass that waves.

Do you know why the particle is always detected traveling through a single slit in a double slit experiment?

It always travels through a single slit. It is the associated wave in the dark mass which passes through both.

In a double slit experiment, it is the dark mass that waves whether you choose to understand it, or not.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 28, 2015
@lst: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you have not presented anything, here or in the many other fora you've posted your ideas on, that goes beyond mere word salad/hand-waving/etc, right?


I have correctly explained what occurs physically in nature which causes the Milky Way's halo to be lopsided and for there to be an offset between the light lensing through the space neighboring galaxy clusters and the center of the galaxy clusters themselves. I have correctly explained what ripples when galaxy clusters collide.

I have correctly explained what occurs physically in nature whether you choose to understand it, or not.
Enthusiastic Fool
4.4 / 5 (7) Jun 28, 2015
@lst

Hi again,

Can you clarify what you mean by:

Can you provide an index of refraction for curved spacetime?


Shouldn't the "index of refraction for curved spacetime" be 1?
n = c/v
Where c is the speed of light in a vaccum and v is the phase velocity of light in the medium.
Light travels at 'c' through space unless it traverses another medium, right? If you were talking about the refractive index of the intergalactic medium then that should have a different answer and a different question. My point is that I think your challenge to JT is not a very meaningful one and thus your followup word salad is just as meaningless.

https://en.wikipe...ve_index
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (3) Jun 28, 2015
And why are you unable to characterize the interaction between curved spacetime and light, with respect to photons of different energies?
I'm not: it's geometric and independent of photon frequency. Such is not the case for photons in any/all known natural media.
Can you provide an index of refraction for curved spacetime?
Sure, same as the index of refraction for flat spacetime: 1.
...as the state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.
right, we'll try this: Michelson and Morley performed an experiment to detect displaced dark mass. Do you know what they discovered? Not so much as a slosh. C'mon, liquid, you drippin.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 28, 2015
Can you clarify what you mean by:


I am being asked which photon gets deflected more going through the dark mass which is displaced by the sun: an x-ray photon or an infrared photon.

I'm saying it's the same answer as for curved spacetime.

The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 28, 2015
And why are you unable to characterize the interaction between curved spacetime and light, with respect to photons of different energies?
I'm not: it's geometric and independent of photon frequency. Such is not the case for photons in any/all known natural media.


Which is completely missing the point.

The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.

Sure, same as the index of refraction for flat spacetime: 1.


Then it's the same answer for the state of displacement of the dark mass as the state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.

Michelson and Morley ...


Michelson and Morley looked for an absolutely stationary space the Earth moves through. The dark mass is not an absolutely stationary space. The dark mass is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 28, 2015
Curved spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the dark mass.

The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.

Curved spacetime *is* the state of displacement of the dark mass.

The state of displacement of the dark mass = curved spacetime.

Curved spactime = the state of displacement of the dark mass.

The geometrical representation of gravity as curved spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the dark mass.

Instead of discussing gravity geometrically you can discuss what is actually occurring physically in nature as curved spacetime physically manifests itself as the state of displacement of the dark mass.

The Sun curves spacetime.

The Sun displaces the dark mass.

Both the curvature of spacetime and the state of displacement of the dark mass are both referring to the same thing.
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (6) Jun 28, 2015
The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.

Curved spacetime *is* the state of displacement of the dark mass.

The state of displacement of the dark mass = curved spacetime.

Curved spactime = the state of displacement of the dark mass.
Well, you certainly made your point, and really drove it home in reverse. Your logic is impeccably, irrefutably perfectly circular. And your placement of the equals sign, well, = brilliant.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 28, 2015
The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.

Curved spacetime *is* the state of displacement of the dark mass.

The state of displacement of the dark mass = curved spacetime.

Curved spactime = the state of displacement of the dark mass.
Well, you certainly made your point, and really drove it home in reverse. Your logic is impeccably, irrefutably perfectly circular. And your placement of the equals sign, well, = brilliant.


So, does that mean when you ask a question about the light being diffracted around the Sun due to the state of displacement of the dark mass you are capable of answering your own question as it is the same answer for the spacetime curved by the Sun, since both are describing the same thing?
JeanTate
3.3 / 5 (12) Jun 29, 2015
@lst:
I have correctly explained what occurs physically in nature which causes the Milky Way's halo to be lopsided and for there to be an offset between the light lensing through the space neighboring galaxy clusters and the center of the galaxy clusters themselves. I have correctly explained what ripples when galaxy clusters collide
I do not doubt for one nanosecond that you yourself think that. Trouble is, after all these years no one seems to agree with you. Why is that?
I have correctly explained what occurs physically in nature whether you choose to understand it, or not
Actually, from my POV, you have "explained" nothing at all.

Take your "ripples when galaxy clusters collide": why is it only one cluster where such ripples are observed? What analyses did you do of the astronomical data, to confirm that the 'ripples' observed are consistent with your idea? Why do the 'ripples' have the wavelength they are seen to have? And so on.
JeanTate
3.8 / 5 (10) Jun 29, 2015
@lst:
There is evidence my idea is correct every time a double slit experiment is performed; it's the dark mass that waves
What is the wavelength of such 'dark mass waves'? Why does it have that particular wavelength (or wavelengths)? Have you written down an equation that describes how this happens (e.g. a time-dependent one)? If so, where have you published it? How much 'dark mass' 'waves' in a single-slit experiment?

The 'cluster collision' observations show 'dark mass ripples' (per your idea); what is the speed of the waves which produce these ripples? The 'dark mass' density is clearly anisotropic (otherwise there'd be no ripples, or lopsided MW), yet the MMX detects no such anisotropy; how come?

And so on.

And please, no more 'looks like a duck' logic, no more hand-waving or word salad, present a *quantitative* case ...
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 29, 2015
I do not doubt for one nanosecond that you yourself think that. Trouble is, after all these years no one seems to agree with you. Why is that?.


Mainstream physics is incapable of understanding the notion that dark matter is a clump of stuff traveling along with the matter is incorrect. Matter moves through and displaces the dark mass. What mainstream physics refers to as a clump of dark matter is actually the state of displacement of the dark mass. What mainstream physics refers to as a clump of dark matter traveling along with the matter is actually curved spacetime.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 29, 2015
What is the wavelength of such 'dark mass waves'?


'Matter waves in a gravitational field: An index of refraction for massive particles in general relativity'
http://www2.ups.e...vity.pdf

"The gravitational wave optics of massive and massless particles differ only in a dispersion effect"

'GRAVITATIONALWAVES AND QUANTUM THEORY'
http://ej.kubagro...f/78.pdf

"it can be assumed that the gravitational waves are associated with waves of matter, the existence of which was first pointed out de Broglie"

''The amplitude of the de Broglie Gravitational Waves''
http://arxiv.org/...52v1.pdf

"A recent proposal consists in considering the de Broglie waves of one particle quantum mechanics as a special kind of Gravitational Waves"
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 29, 2015
But when we will get evidence for this hypothesis? The distortion of vacuum of space or dark matter are never observed by experiment.


'The Milky Way's dark matter halo appears to be lopsided'
http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3802

"the emerging picture of the dark matter halo of the Milky Way is dominantly lopsided in nature."

The Milky Way's halo is not a clump of dark matter traveling along with the Milky Way. The Milky Way's halo is lopsided due to the matter in the Milky Way moving through and displacing the dark mass.

'Offset between dark matter and ordinary matter: evidence from a sample of 38 lensing clusters of galaxies'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.1475

"Our data strongly support the idea that the gravitational potential in clusters is mainly due to a non-baryonic fluid"

The offset is due to the galaxy clusters moving through and displacing the dark mass, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water.
JeanTate
4 / 5 (8) Jun 29, 2015
@lst:
Mainstream physics is incapable of understanding the notion that dark matter is a clump of stuff traveling along with the matter is incorrect
And you seem to be unable to explain this idea of yours in a form that others - physicist or not - can understand. Why not take some time out, to work on your presentation and communication skills?
[me] What is the wavelength of such 'dark mass waves'?
[you] ...
Yep, you did not answer the question
[me] Why does it have that particular wavelength (or wavelengths)? Have you written down an equation that describes how this happens (e.g. a time-dependent one)? [...] How much 'dark mass' 'waves' in a single-slit experiment?

The 'cluster collision' observations show 'dark mass ripples' (per your idea); what is the speed of the waves which produce these ripples? The 'dark mass' density is clearly anisotropic [...], yet the MMX detects no such anisotropy; how come?
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 29, 2015
@JeanTate I don't know why physicists are unable to understand something as simple as the Milky Way's halo being lopsided is evidence of curved spacetime.

Michelson and Morley looked for an absolutely stationary space the Earth moves through. The dark mass is not an absolutely stationary space. The dark mass is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it.
JeanTate
4 / 5 (8) Jun 29, 2015
@lst:
I don't know why physicists are unable to understand something as simple as the Milky Way's halo being lopsided is evidence of curved spacetime
Perhaps they understand this perfectly well, within the framework of GR ... but perhaps you misunderstand what this signifies, or misunderstand its *quantitative* extent.

This seems to me to be a common theme in what you post; for example, ''The amplitude of the de Broglie Gravitational Waves'' seems deeply incompatible with your ideas, once you put some numbers in. Yet you seem to have never 'done the numbers', and rely solely on word salad, hand-waving, and bad analogies ... fundamentally no different than 'looks like a duck' reasoning
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 29, 2015
@lst:
I don't know why physicists are unable to understand something as simple as the Milky Way's halo being lopsided is evidence of curved spacetime
Perhaps they understand this perfectly well, within the framework of GR ... but perhaps you misunderstand what this signifies, or misunderstand its *quantitative* extent.


The Milky Way moves through and curves spacetime. You would expect the center of the curved spacetime to be offset from the center of the Milky Way (ie. lopsided). You would think if mainstream physics determined the Milky Way's halo is lopsided, which it has, then it would be able to understand the Milky Way's halo *is* curved spacetime.

However, since they can't think beyond the incorrect notion that dark matter is a clump of stuff traveling along with the Milky Way they are incapable of understanding they have found what they are really looking for, physical evidence of curved spacetime.
JeanTate
4 / 5 (8) Jun 29, 2015
@lst:
The Milky Way moves through and curves spacetime. You would expect the center of the curved spacetime to be offset from the center of the Milky Way (ie. lopsided). You would think if mainstream physics determined the Milky Way's halo is lopsided, which it has, then it would be able to understand the Milky Way's halo *is* curved spacetime
Word salad, with minimal nutrutional (scientific) value.

Show me the numbers!

For example, "You would expect the center of the curved spacetime to be offset from the center of the Milky Way (ie. lopsided)" - offset by how much? In what direction? how do you determine what to 'expect', based on your ideas? Etc
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 29, 2015
For example, "You would expect the center of the curved spacetime to be offset from the center of the Milky Way (ie. lopsided)" - offset by how much?


Offset by how much they found it to be offset.

'The Milky Way's dark matter halo appears to be lopsided'
http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3802

"the emerging picture of the dark matter halo of the Milky Way is dominantly lopsided in nature."

Instead of the current notion of dark matter, let's assume for a second that physics decided to look for evidence of curved spacetime. Since the Milky Way is moving through and curving spacetime, the curved spacetime 'halo' would be lopsided.

This is exactly what they found!

Unfortunately, the incorrect notion of dark matter as a clump of stuff travel along with the matter already existed.
JeanTate
4 / 5 (8) Jun 29, 2015
@lst:
Offset by how much they found it to be offset [...] Instead of the current notion of dark matter, let's assume for a second that physics decided to look for evidence of curved spacetime. Since the Milky Way is moving through and curving spacetime, the curved spacetime 'halo' would be lopsided.

This is exactly what they found!


To quote from a comment by Protoplasmix:
Well, you certainly made your point, and really drove it home in reverse. Your logic is impeccably, irrefutably perfectly circular.
Can you not see this fundamental, fatal flaw in your claims?
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (3) Jun 29, 2015
Can you not see this fundamental, fatal flaw in your claims?


Can you not see this fundamental, fatal flaw in your understanding of what occurs physically in nature?

The Milky Way's halo is not a clump of stuff traveling along with the Milky Way.

The Milky Way's halo is lopsided because the Milky Way is moving through and curving spacetime.

The Milky Way's halo *is* curved spacetime.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 30, 2015
The notions of dark matter and the dark matter particle are incorrect. The mass which fills 'empty' space is beginning to be referred to as the 'dark mass' in order to distinguish it from the baggage associated with dark matter.

'Dark Energy/Dark Mass: The Slient Truth'
https://tienzengo...t-truth/

"That is, all that we are certain about [is] the dark mass, not dark matter, let alone to say about the dark 'particle'."

Particles of matter move through and displace the dark mass, including 'particles' as large as galaxies and galaxy clusters.

The Milky Way moves through and displaces the dark mass.

The Milky Way's halo is the state of displacement of the dark mass.

The Milky Way moves through and curves spacetime.

The Milky Way's halo is curved spacetime.

The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (5) Jun 30, 2015
Can you not see this fundamental, fatal flaw
@Lqs
can't you see your conjecture is only as good as the evidence you provide? and linking to opinion is in no way evidence of anything except that people think similar to you...

your comment is every bit as valid as my statement that:

"The Milky Way's halo is Dark Milk squirted from the Dark Energy Cow of the universe because of a member of the paraphyletic group of organisms that consist of all gill-bearing aquatic craniate animals that lack limbs with digits is being utilized for assault & battery in an advanced simian cultural art form that generally involves movement of the body, often rhythmic, and to music"

...which is supported by the following evidence

https://www.youtu...Qp-q1Y1s

IOW - see Proto's and Jean's arguments re: your circular reasoning
Your logic is impeccably, irrefutably perfectly circular.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 30, 2015
IOW - see Proto's and Jean's arguments re: your circular reasoning
Your logic is impeccably, irrefutably perfectly circular.


IOW, you choose not to understand the Milky Way's halo *is* curved spacetime.

'The Milky Way's dark matter halo appears to be lopsided'
http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3802

"the emerging picture of the dark matter halo of the Milky Way is dominantly lopsided in nature."

The Milky Way's halo is not a clump of dark matter traveling along with the Milky Way. The Milky Way's halo is lopsided due to the matter in the Milky Way moving through and displacing the dark mass.

'Offset between dark matter and ordinary matter: evidence from a sample of 38 lensing clusters of galaxies'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.1475

"Our data strongly support the idea that the gravitational potential in clusters is mainly due to a non-baryonic fluid"

The offset is due to the galaxy clusters are moving through and displacing the dark mass.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jun 30, 2015
The Milky Way moves through and displaces the dark mass.

The Milky Way's halo is the state of displacement of the dark mass.

The Milky Way moves through and curves spacetime.

The Milky Way's halo is curved spacetime.

The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.
viko_mx
1 / 5 (3) Jul 01, 2015
@liquidspacetime

Your recent posts have auto hypnotic character.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (2) Jul 01, 2015
@liquidspacetime

Your recent posts have auto hypnotic character.


Has it allowed you to correctly understand the Milky Way's halo is curved spacetime?
mytwocts
not rated yet Jul 02, 2015
Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality; both are waves in the dark mass.

Well, I don't know how you can reconcile the obvious difference in energy an electron matter wave represents with, the gravitational wave an electron would cause,... not to mention that gravitational waves are quadruple transverse,.... whilst Schrodinger wavefunction (even if taken as a physical wave) would operate differently wrt interference effects,....

Bullocks. Dark matter is far to thinly distributed. Stars in regions with more and less dark matter exhibit the same physics I bet. Hey why don't you prove the contrary and win the Noble prize ?

Electrons do not generate gravitational waves, quarks do.

mytwocts
5 / 5 (5) Jul 02, 2015
The notions of dark matter and the dark matter particle are incorrect. The mass which fills 'empty' space is beginning to be referred to as the 'dark mass' in order to distinguish it from the baggage associated with dark matter.

'Dark Energy/Dark Mass: The Slient Truth'
https://tienzengo...t-truth/

"That is, all that we are certain about [is] the dark mass, not dark matter, let alone to say about the dark 'particle'."

Particles of matter move through and displace the dark mass, including 'particles' as large as galaxies and galaxy clusters.

The Milky Way moves through and displaces the dark mass.

The Milky Way's halo is the state of displacement of the dark mass.

The Milky Way moves through and curves spacetime.

The Milky Way's halo is curved spacetime.

The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.

A lot of claims, no proof.
Flush.
mytwocts
5 / 5 (5) Jul 02, 2015

The notion of dark matter is incorrect. 'Empty' space has mass which is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it, including 'particles' as large as galaxies and galaxy clusters.

The term 'dark mass' avoids the baggage of DM.

And how, may I ask, does calling dark matter dark mass instead, advance science?
That is a tautology. Not even circular.
Not even wrong.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (1) Jul 03, 2015
A lot of claims, no proof.


There is evidence of the dark mass every time a double slit experiment is performed; it;s what waves.
liquidspacetime
1 / 5 (1) Jul 03, 2015
And how, may I ask, does calling dark matter dark mass instead, advance science?


There is no such thing as a clump of stuff traveling with the Milky Way. The Milky Way is moving through and displacing the dark mass.

The Milky Way's halo is the state of displacement of the dark mass.

The Milky Way is moving through and displacing the dark mass.

The Milky Way's halo is curved spacetime.

The state of displacement of the dark mass *is* curved spacetime.

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