What I learned from debating science with trolls

Aug 20, 2014 by Michael J. I. Brown, The Conversation
Professors with contrarian views can even be found at Ivy League universities such as Princeton. Flickr/Sindy Lee, CC BY-NC-ND

I often like to discuss science online and I'm also rather partial to topics that promote lively discussion, such as climate change, crime statistics and (perhaps surprisingly) the big bang. This inevitably brings out the trolls.

"Don't feed the trolls" is sound advice, but I've ignored it on occasion – including on The Conversation and Twitter – and I've been rewarded. Not that I've changed the minds of any trolls, nor have I expected to.

But I have received an education in the tactics many trolls use. These tactics are common not just to trolls but to bloggers, journalists and politicians who attack science, from climate to cancer research.

Some techniques are comically simple. Emotionally charged, yet evidence-free, accusations of scams, fraud and cover-ups are common. While they mostly lack credibility, such accusations may be effective at polarising debate and reducing understanding.

And I wish I had a dollar each time a scientifically incompetent ideologue claimed science is a religion. The chairman of the Prime Minister's Business Advisory Council, Maurice Newman, trotted out that old chestnut in The Australian last week. Australia's Chief Scientist, Ian Chubb, was less than impressed by Newman's use of that tactic.

Unfortunately there are too many tactics to discuss in just one article (sorry Gish Gallop and Strawman), so I will focus on just a few that I've encountered online and in the media recently.

'Experts'

Internet trolls know who their experts are. There are thousands of professors scattered across academia, so it isn't surprising that a few contrarians can be found. In online discussions I've been told of the contrarian views of "respected" professors from Harvard, MIT and Princeton.

Back in The Conversation's early days I even copped abuse for not being at Princeton by someone who was clearly unfamiliar with both science and my employment history. It was a useful lesson that vitriol is often disconnected from knowledge and expertise.

At times expert opinion is totally misrepresented, often with remarkable confidence.

Responding to one of my Conversation articles, the Australian Financial Review's Mark Lawson distorted the findings of CSIRO's John Church on sea levels.

Even after I confirmed with Church that Lawson had the science wrong, Lawson wouldn't back down.

Such distortions aren't limited to online debates. In The Australian, Maurice Newman warned about imminent global cooling and cited Professor Mike Lockwood's research as evidence.

But Lockwood himself stated last year that solar variability this century may reduce warming by:

between 0.06 and 0.1 degrees Celsius, a very small fraction of the warming we're due to experience as a result of human activity.

Newman's claims were debunked, by his expert, before he even wrote his article.

Sometimes experts are quoted correctly, but they happen to disagree with the vast majority of their equally qualified (or more qualified) colleagues. How do the scientifically illiterate select this minority of experts?

I've asked trolls this question a few times and, funnily enough, they cannot provide good answers. To be blunt, they are choosing experts based on agreeable conclusions rather than scientific rigour, and this problem extends well beyond online debates.

Earlier this month, Senator Eric Abetz controversially seemed to link abortions with breast cancer on Channel Ten's The Project.

This video is not supported by your browser at this time.

While Abetz distanced himself from these claims, his media statement doesn't dispute them and talks up the expertise of Dr Angela Lanfranchi, who does link abortions with breast cancer.

Abetz does not have expertise in medical research, so why did he give Dr Lanfranchi's views similar or more weight than those of most doctors, including the Australian Medical Association's president Brian Owler, who say there is no clear link between abortion and ?

If Abetz cannot evaluate the medical research data and methods, is his choice largely based on Dr Lanfranchi's conclusions? Why won't he accept the views of most medical professionals, who can evaluate the relevant evidence?

Abetz may be doctor shopping, not for a desired diagnosis or drug, but for an desired expert opinion. And just as doctor shopping can result in the wrong diagnosis, doctor shopping for opinions gives you misleading conclusions.

Broken logic

Often attacks on science employ logic so flawed that it would be laughable in everyday life. If I said my car was blue, and thus no cars are red, you would be unimpressed. And yet when non-experts discuss science, such flawed logic is often employed.

Global temperatures (measured by Marcott et al. in dark blue, and HadCRUT4 in red) have changed as a result of both natural and anthropogenic climate change. There has been a dramatic rise in global temperatures over the past century. Michael Brown

Carbon dioxide emissions are leading to now, and gradual natural climate change has also taken place over aeons. There's no reason for natural and to be mutually exclusive, and yet climate change deniers frequently use natural climate change in an attempt to disprove anthropogenic global warming.

Unfortunately our Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, employed similar broken logic after the 2013 bushfires:

Australia has had fires and floods since the beginning of time. We've had much bigger floods and fires than the ones we've recently experienced. You can hardly say they were the result of anthropic [sic] global warming.

Bushfires are a natural part of the Australian environment but that does not exclude altering the frequency and intensity of those fires. Indeed, the Forest Fire Danger Index has been increasing across Australia since the 1970s.

Why the Prime Minister would employ such flawed logic, and contradict scientific research, is puzzling.

Galileo

The Italian scientist and astronomer Galileo Galilei was infamously persecuted by the politically powerful Catholic Church because of his promotion of the sun-centred solar system.

While Galileo suffered house arrest, his views ultimately triumphed because they were supported by observation, while the Church's stance relied on theology.

The Galileo Gambit is a debating technique that perverts this history to defend nonsense. Criticisms by the vast majority of scientists are equated with the opinions of 17th century clergy, while a minority promoting pseudoscience are equated with Galileo.

Ironically, the Galileo Gambit is often employed by those who have no scientific expertise and strong ideological reasons for attacking science. And its use isn't restricted to online debates.

Bizarrely, even the politically powerful and well connected are partial to the Galileo Gambit. Maurice Newman (once again) rejects the consensus view of climate scientists and, when questioned on his rejection of the science, his (perhaps predictable) response was:

Well, Galileo was virtually on his own.

Newman's use of a tactic of trolls and cranks is worthy of criticism. The triumph of Galileo's views were a result of his capacity to develop scientific ideas and test them via observation. Newman, and many of those who attack science, notably lack this ability.

Explore further: Global warming linked to wildfires, says UN climate chief

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Michael Brown
4.8 / 5 (24) Aug 20, 2014
"Cherry picking" a few studies and ignoring the bulk of the literature is obviously a common debating tactic, both online and in the media.

There are multiple studies of the temperature history of the globe that use a range of methods (e.g., instrumental record, tree rings, boreholes). Trolls, bloggers, journalists and politicians often use a select few studies (or pseudo-studies) and attempt to use these to trump the rest of the literature.

A classic example of this is the abuse of the pioneering Lamb (1982) study. Lamb measured the temperature history for just central England, and his study shows a warm period around 1200, but his approach used educated guess work (at times) and he had no margins of error.

Unsurprisingly, Lamb's pioneering study differs from much of the subsequent literature that has more robust methodology, more data and global/hemisphere coverage. And yet climate deniers frequently select Lamb ahead of other more rigorous and relevant studies.
Michael Brown
4.8 / 5 (23) Aug 20, 2014
I mentioned the Gish Gallop in my article, but did not have space to describe it in detail and wasn't in the mood to write a listicle of tactics.

The Gish Gallop is the rapid presentation of a series of points (including falsehoods and half-truths) during a debate. The Gish Gallop's strength is it takes less time and technical knowhow to present each misleading point than it does rebut them.

One possible counter to the Gish Gallop is forcing the discussion to stay on one point, and refusing to move onto another point until the first point is resolved.
Watebba
1.6 / 5 (34) Aug 20, 2014
A refreshing article - unfortunately just the global climate is the topic, where it's not still quite clear, who is trolling who. My experience with deep mistakes of physics of the last decades indicates, the layman public will be more close to truth in this particular case. As another indicia may serve the fact, that whole large topics (for example Landscheit's planetary models of solar activity) are simply excluded from scientific discussions like taboo. In this context the reading of articles The era of expert failure by Arnold Kling, Why experts are usually wrong by David H. Freeman and Why the experts missed the crash by Phill Tetlock may be useful for author of this article.
Watebba
1.5 / 5 (26) Aug 20, 2014
While Galileo suffered house arrest, his views ultimately triumphed because they were supported by observation, while the Church's stance relied on theology.
Now the proponent of mainstream physics is, who is referring to Galieo persecution. Such a speech figure is valued by forty points at the crackpot index. Just a nice example of relativity of argumentative perspectives.
antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (28) Aug 20, 2014
How do the scientifically illiterate select this minority of experts?

That's a good point. The scientifically illiterate cannot make an educated selection of experts. Their choice is more or less random (a bit on the 'less random' side, because - like all uneducated people - they tend to go for what 'pops' instead of what makes sense)

Why the Prime Minister would employ such flawed logic, and contradict scientific research, is puzzling.

Follow the money. No puzzle there.

One should distinguish between what a person believes and what a person says. If the latter generates profit then it may easily be at odds with the former.
Our local '50 cent'-army representatives (rygg et. al.) are prime examples.
Watebba
1.5 / 5 (27) Aug 20, 2014
Follow the money. No puzzle there.
The global warming is the main topic, where the authority of mainstream science gets openly doubted at public. The scientific trolling is of exactly the same economical nature: for example the ignorance of cold fusion findings helps the physicists to get money for their own already established energetic research. But because such an ignorance still doesn't hurt anyone in specific way, it's widely tolerated with layman public in similar way, like the frog ignores the warm water.

But the global warming is already a topic, which has its tangible economical connotations for many existing lobbyist groups - in this case even the mainstream science faces a competition from outside. Which is generally a good situation, as the scientists without public feedback may get pretty costly and annoying brake of further progress - after all, like any other lobbyist group.
Modernmystic
1.7 / 5 (35) Aug 20, 2014
This guy didn't learn anything. It appears he merely refined smugness and actually entrenched his defensiveness by blowing up his ego further.

The Galileo Gambit is a debating technique that perverts this history to defend nonsense.


Actually scientists have said that it would be impossible for rockets to operate in space, impossible to break the sound barrier, impossible for heavier than air machines to fly, people whose 'views ultimately DID NOT triumph despite the fact that they were supported by observation....'

A little history and perspective along with your egocentric lambasting of other people might ACTUALLY teach you something....
Modernmystic
1.1 / 5 (28) Aug 20, 2014
It seems hard to sneak a look at God's cards. But that He plays dice and uses "telepathic" methods... is something that I cannot believe for a single moment.


Albert Einstein; Scientific genius and publisher of special and general relativity...

And according to Michael J. I. Brown, a non expert and would be internet troll because he didn't base all his opinions on observation by the "real experts".....either that or secretly a member of the Catholic Church who infiltrated the circles of science in a devious plot to subvert quantum mechanics.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (25) Aug 20, 2014
Trolling is easy and didn't start on the internet. It is human nature to use deception in order to further ones position, and also to resist owning up to it when discovered.

The internet has perhaps made trolling easier but it also offers an eventual solution. The instant access to facts will make it possible for automation to instantly flag bullshit and expose trolls, or to simply preempt them.

This is inevitable because trolls have made it necessary. And AI moderation will signal the ultimate triumph of science over human nature.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (34) Aug 20, 2014
Well here's one now
This guy didn't learn anything. It appears he merely refined smugness and actually entrenched his defensiveness by blowing up his ego further
-Appeal to emotion, no factual content...
A little history and perspective along with your egocentric lambasting of other people might ACTUALLY teach you something....
-and the implication of facts which don't exist. Some people troll consciously while others think trolling is the only way to participate.

No matter. AI mods will deal with them all.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (16) Aug 20, 2014
That's a good point. The scientifically illiterate cannot make an educated selection of experts. Their choice is more or less random (a bit on the 'less random' side, because - like all uneducated people - they tend to go for what 'pops' instead of what makes sense)
-And there are trolls who would actually use this argument to ignore evidence when it proves them wrong. Did you know it? Hubris is unscientific but entirely human.
Modernmystic
2 / 5 (23) Aug 20, 2014
Then there are trolls who use appeal to authority. These are ones who do not understand the concepts being discussed, and hence CAN'T discuss them but rather simply regurgitate the opinions of the experts who agree with their worldview. They are either incapable, unwilling, or too lazy to form their own opinions and feel the only way to participate is to show the opinions of others and present that in and of itself as an argument.

These are also easy to spot in their lack of maturity and inability to handle rejection of their "argument". Since they aren't really participating in a discussion they get easily frustrated at people who don't simply "see the light" and accept their surrogate opinion that they did a lot of "research" finding and bringing to the world...IOW people who won't engage in fiat acceptance but require discussion. They are a lot like the overly religious in this aspect.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (30) Aug 20, 2014
I attended Nobel Conference XVII at Gustavus Adolphus College in 1981.
https://gustavus....archive/
I believe it was Eugene Winger who said that if a scientist can't explain his research to a 6th grade student, he did not sufficiently understand the research.
When AGWites can't answer simple questions about their research, they claim 'consensus', 'settled science' so shut up and stop asking questions.
Asking questions is trolling now?
Only if the researchers can't, or don't, have the answers.
supamark23
4.8 / 5 (37) Aug 20, 2014
I like how the denier trolls flock to this article and demonstrate the tactics the author describes - it's like they have absolutely no self awareness.
julianpenrod
1.2 / 5 (34) Aug 20, 2014
The majority of "scientists", then, who refused to take issue with the insistence that "all the world's wars have been caused by religion", with the promoting of fen-phen, with claims of banned weapons systems in Iraq don't count, then? They claim to value proof, then declare God is not present but refuse to prove it! One of the most effective weapons is their conniving with "government" and the "news" to fabricate "information", playing up when their claims are "correct", downplaying or denying when other claims work out. They'll parade how psychologists removed homosexuality as a mental disorder, but refuse to mention they were pressured to and that there are facets of homosexuality they still consider mental problems. And what to call those who assign me "1's" here just to dilute any higher rankings I might get, only out of viciousness, because they never contest what I say, because they know it's true?
Uncle Ira
4 / 5 (28) Aug 20, 2014
And what to call those who assign me "1's" here


You can call me Skippy if you want to Skippy.

just to dilute any higher rankings I might get,


You might have to get some other Skippys voting you higher grades Skippy. You can't dilute a "1". And if I were you, I'd be thanking the nice peoples at physorg for not allowing the negative number karma points.

only out of viciousness,


Non Skippy, the bad karma points aren't viciousness, they are for when you say silly things. The comment block is for the viciousness, like where you tell someone like Julie-Skippy he is really stupid.

because they never contest what I say, because they know it's true?


That must be it. What you say is true so nobody gives you a five. Is that your idea of good scientifical theory thinking? Getting the "1" is because everybody thinks you are right?

Leave the silly looking pointy cap at the door when you leave for the next couyon so he doesn't feel left out.
Modernmystic
1.7 / 5 (29) Aug 20, 2014
The rating system is a politically correct and dogmatically correct system here. Beyond measuring how much specific people on the site mirror your views I don't know what practical purpose it serves.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (24) Aug 20, 2014
The rating system is a politically correct and dogmatically correct system here. Beyond measuring how much specific people on the site mirror your views I don't know what practical purpose it serves.

For some the rating systems provides some measure of self-worth based upon how upset some are when they are rated #1.
Sounds like too many students today who expect undeserved 'As'.

Example:

5 / 5 (1) 1 hour ago
Runrig, sorry I downvoted you.
http://phys.org/n...firstCmt
Toiea
1.3 / 5 (18) Aug 20, 2014
I don't know what practical purpose it serves.
IMO it's principally harmful, as it learns the people to face the uncomfortable opinions with voting instead of arguments. It enforces the gregarious instincts and labeling. After all, it must be supplemented with reporting feature anyway, as it doesn't work for spammers.
antigoracle
1.6 / 5 (33) Aug 20, 2014
Ha ha, physorg finally has a comedy section. It was truly amusing to see this feeble attempt to disguise pro-AGW drivel as a discourse about science. Just replace the word "science" with "climate change" and the intention of this babble becomes quite obvious.
As for who are the trolls, just look at the comment ratings and that becomes evident.
flashgordon
1.3 / 5 (16) Aug 20, 2014
I find that troll is a vague word like 'good', 'don't you have fun/party' and a lot of other words used by people in an unanalyzed way. So, I got tired of reading the article fast.

This 'troll' usage is a social phenomenon much like the 'Slash's daughter/sister' young female rock guitarists have been given recently.

Science is religion is debatable. I got that far.

I'd consider physorgs constant christianising of science, trolling . . .
supamark23
4.6 / 5 (30) Aug 20, 2014
Ha ha, physorg finally has a comedy section. It was truly amusing to see this feeble attempt to disguise pro-AGW drivel as a discourse about science. Just replace the word "science" with "climate change" and the intention of this babble becomes quite obvious.
As for who are the trolls, just look at the comment ratings and that becomes evident.


Well, considering that your comments are generally among the lowest rated..... and you're definitely a troll here, that last sentence may be the most truthful thing you've ever posted on phys.org.
antigoracle
1.6 / 5 (36) Aug 20, 2014
Thanks supatard, for the insight into the workings of a lone neuron. As usual you're supa"off the"mark. You trolls just come to this site to down vote the heretics without even bothering to read the articles far less the comments.
Toiea
1.3 / 5 (23) Aug 20, 2014
your comments are generally among the lowest rated
This MAY be the sign of their quality at the PO voting system instead. After all, all REALLY progressive ideas faced the WIDE opposition of mainstream, as the article admits by itself with example of Galileo. So that maybe the voting karma could be still used as a criterion of quality providing the voting trolls are consistent in their trolling in the same way, like posting trolls - this function would be just more complex.
dtxx
4.6 / 5 (25) Aug 20, 2014
I attended Nobel Conference XVII at Gustavus Adolphus College in 1981.
https://gustavus....archive/
I believe it was Eugene Winger who said that if a scientist can't explain his research to a 6th grade student, he did not sufficiently understand the research.
When AGWites can't answer simple questions about their research, they claim 'consensus', 'settled science' so shut up and stop asking questions.
Asking questions is trolling now?
Only if the researchers can't, or don't, have the answers.


This is why all peer reviewed journals employ 6th graders and require their final approval before anything is published. After all, Eugene Winger said so in 1981 at a conference that you personally attended and feel very special about. If that is not a standard we can all agree on for what should be called science, then what is?
supamark23
4.7 / 5 (24) Aug 20, 2014
your comments are generally among the lowest rated
This MAY be the sign of their quality at the PO voting system instead. After all, all REALLY progressive ideas faced the WIDE opposition of mainstream, as the article admits by itself with example of Galileo.


there is nothing progressive, or intelligent, about what antigoricle says - look at the post above yours for a sample of a typical comment.
Toiea
1.4 / 5 (21) Aug 20, 2014
look at the post above yours for a sample of a typical comment
Do you think the " trolls just come to this site to down vote the heretics without even bothering to read the articles" stuff? This is exactly what I'm experiencing at many sites, including PO. I can only subscribe it. The groups of voting trolls occupy the public forums in the same way, like the posting trolls. IMO it has its counterpart in space-time geometry: the opponents play a role of dark matter for mainstream posters (gravity field) and the voting trolls play a role of dark energy for dark matter. The dark matter gets pronounced around massive bodies just under certain situations, which indicates the approaching phase transform. These social groups are apparently related through their spatial/temporal gradients (the dark matter is attracted with space-time curvature, not with matter as such). The people of both groups are attracted to controversies - noncontroversial steady-state topics don't bother anyone.
Toiea
1.7 / 5 (19) Aug 20, 2014
there is nothing progressive
The progressives represent a certain paradigm today in the same way, like the conservatives. They support the AGW, public expenses and socialistic stuffs in general. They're occupation driven in the same way, like the conservatives - they just want to utilize the public resources instead of private ones.The progressives are naturally attracted to long-term strategic topics which deserve the governmental intervention, whereas the conservatives prefer solving of practical short term&local tasks at communal level - such a specialization represents both their limits, both feature. IMO both groups have their bit of truth and they should coexist in peaceful balance, so we should learn to listen better each other. The problem arises, when this balance gets violated. The carbon tax and climatic research represent a huge pile of public money, which attracts the progressive people and violates the balance between progressive and conservative stances.
supamark23
4.8 / 5 (23) Aug 20, 2014
I think trolls like antig come here for one of two reasons,

1. They get their jollies posting obvious BS to rile people up. These are also known as "pot stirers"
2. They are paid to post in certain topics (like AGW) that corporations want to influence public opinion on.

For 2 of the lowest rated posters, antigoricle and ryggesgn2, I suspect antig is the 1st and rygge is the 2nd.

I downvote those two reflexively, but also anyone posting what I consider pseudoscience - aether wave theory posts are in that catagory for example because it was disproven about 100 years ago.
baudrunner
1.4 / 5 (19) Aug 20, 2014
The majority of people tend to be followers, not leaders, so the "consensus view" does not always hold sway over independent thinkers. There are too many card-carrying members of the status quo in the scientific community who are qualified only on paper, but hold authoritative sway over a gullible audience because legally they are scientists. There are many who, were they alive today, would be considered to be "not qualified" to have scientific opinions or theories because they didn't had a college education, like Leonardo da Vinci, James Watt, Thomas Alva Edison, the Wright Brothers, Michael Faraday, Benjamin Franklin, Buckminster Fuller, Thomas Henry Huxley, Antonie van Leeuwenhoek, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz, Karl Marx, Walter Pitts, Srinivasa Ramanujan. Those are the true heroes of old, men of renown. I for one would rather be a crank. I can say anything I like.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (25) Aug 20, 2014
I downvote those two reflexively,

Why bother?
For me, to receive a '1' from AGWite/socialists/'liberals'/'progressives' is badge of honor.
Toiea
1.2 / 5 (23) Aug 20, 2014
aether wave theory posts are in that category for example because it was disproven about 100 years ago
AWT is based on dense aether model of Oliver Lodge, which was never seriously considered with mainstream science, disproved the less. Actually with respect to classical aether model FILLING the space the dense aether model FORMING the space represents a natural counterpart in the same way, like the official science. The official science and dense aether model are actually an allies - the official science just don't (wants to) know about it. Even the ideological ally still represents a competition for mainstream scientists.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (23) Aug 20, 2014
The progressives are naturally attracted to long-term strategic topics which deserve the governmental intervention,


No, they are attracted to power.
""Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. "
http://www.goodre...the-good
Toiea
1.2 / 5 (18) Aug 20, 2014
to receive a '1' from AGWite/socialists/'liberals'/'progressives' is badge of honor
The main point of my previous post was, the conservatives and progressives are two symmetric groups. The progressives tend to waste the public resources in short therm perspective for the sake of solution of strategic tasks, the conservatives tend to remain ignorant to natural resources for the sake of solving of practical short term needs. For me these two groups represent a perfect duality, each of them has its strength and weakness and no one is better or worse than the other. The ideological bias will prohibit you in seeing the balanced stance.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (22) Aug 20, 2014
To finish CS Lewis' quote, 'progressives' believe they are morally and intellectually superior. Bastiat noted this as well.

"They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals." "

The 'progressives' racist affirmative action programs have kept millions in virtual slavery and we see the results in MO the past few days.
supamark23
4.6 / 5 (23) Aug 20, 2014
No, they are attracted to power.

""Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.


You know that actually describes social conservatives, right? they're the ones trying to codify the private behavior of people (they're the ones that pass laws against being gay, doing drugs, etc. and demand everyone else live their way).
Toiea
3.1 / 5 (15) Aug 20, 2014
..the progressives are naturally attracted to long-term strategic topics which deserve the governmental intervention - no, they are attracted to power.
The conservatives are attracted to power to - at the military side of government and foreign affairs. In these areas they also tend to be as wasteful, as the progressives in the interior affairs. Also the conservatives are more prone to clientelisms and lobbyism, i.e. the hidden cooperation and alliance with government and less democratic if not authoritative management of public life. My stance simply is, both these groups are complementary in all aspects of life and none of them is principally better than another ones. The actual problem arises from imbalance, not from coexistence from both political groups.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (21) Aug 20, 2014
"This is what I've always found so thoroughly enjoyable about the global warming debate. It's not one of those issues where there's right and wrong on both sides and it's really a matter of opinion which one you favour. Quite simply it's a very straightforward battle between, on the one hand a bunch of lying, greedy shysters, fanatical, misanthropic, anti-capitalist eco-loons, bent, grant-troughing scientists, grubby politicians and despicable, rent-seeking millionaires and billionaires; and on the other a handful of brave, honest, rigorous, seekers-after-truth."
"No wonder Mann (and his anonymous - but evidently very rich - backers) are fighting so hard to delay the process for as long as possible.

If this ever goes to trial they're all toast.
"

http://www.breitb...is-toast
Toiea
1.3 / 5 (15) Aug 20, 2014
There is an interesting aspect of gradient driven reality, you'll observe the outer universe as being trapped into black hole once you cross the event horizon of it. In the same way the extreme proponents of progressive or conservative stances tend to perceive their opponents as being trapped inside of their cognitive holes. Instead of it it's just these extremists, who gets biased here. If you've tendency to consider at least half of people at this planet as an idiots, it's probably because you're such an idiot already. The opposite case would be just of very low probability. It was not meant to be personal - I just wanted to point out the common similarities of social psychology of high dimensional society and high-dimensional gradient driven reality.
antigoracle
1.3 / 5 (25) Aug 20, 2014
I think trolls like antig come here for one of two reasons,

1. They get their jollies posting obvious BS to rile people up. These are also known as "pot stirers"
2. They are paid to post in certain topics (like AGW) that corporations want to influence public opinion on.
--supatard
Again, thanks for the insight into the workings (or lack thereof) of a lone neuron.
Jollies and paid eh! You are even more dense than I gave you credit. Do you even read what you write before hitting submit.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (23) Aug 20, 2014
Conservatives in the US support he rule of law, the Constitution, and are actively working to limit the power of the state over the individual.
conservatives are more prone to clientelisms and lobbyism

No, it' the 'progressive'/socialist that supports corporatism.
My stance simply is, both these groups are complementary in all aspects of life and none of them is principally better than another ones.


You don't believe liberty is better than tyranny? Good is better than evil?
supamark23
4.6 / 5 (20) Aug 20, 2014
rygge - your comment about conservatives is only true for the small slice that identify as libertarian - the rest (mainstream GOP, social conservatives) are very against personal liberty.
Toiea
3 / 5 (10) Aug 20, 2014
No, it' the 'progressive'/socialist that supports corporatism
Well, openly. The conservatives just tend to alliances of private sector with government behind scene, i.e. covertly.[ And I favor the opened rules for business.
You don't believe liberty is better than tyranny
Well, the strict adherence of conservatives to rule of law makes this liberty a bit conspicuous, don't you think? But the main problem of conservative ideology is the same like the Marxism, i.e. the fact, the people are cheaters by their very nature. The management of perfectly fair business, free market and legal environment actually requires a strong government capable to enforce the law. The belief, that the people will willingly engage in fair business is the Utopia of the same kind, like the belief, that the people will work for free on behalf of public affairs. In both case you'll actually need a pile of governmental officers, which would keep this artificial political system alive and running.
Toiea
1.6 / 5 (11) Aug 20, 2014
For example IMO it would be a big mistake to believe, that the centralist driven China is not a viable economy just because of apparent socialistic connotations of centralist government. The Chinese political system just converges to ideal political arrangement from opposite side of duality of conservatism / progressivism.
rp142
4.3 / 5 (15) Aug 20, 2014
An article on trolls brings out the trolls and shows that phys.org doesn't deal with them at all. I'm about ready to give up on this site as completely infested with trolls. Those feeding the trolls are generally just making it worse...
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (18) Aug 20, 2014
rygge - your comment about conservatives is only true for the small slice that identify as libertarian - the rest (mainstream GOP, social conservatives) are very against personal liberty.

Mainstream GOP are not conservatives. They attack conservatives. They fear conservatives.
And no, conservatives don't identify as libertarians as they support the rule of law and defending liberty.
What is 'centralist' about China? It's a communist state that is failing due to its central planning, just as all other socialist states are failing.
China is ideal? China is communist. How is that ideal?
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (17) Aug 20, 2014
China is ideal?
"the government remains an authoritarian one-party state. It places arbitrary curbs on expression, association, assembly, and religion; prohibits independent labor unions and human rights organizations; and maintains Party control over all judicial institutions."
"The government censors the press, the Internet, print publications, and academic research, and justifies human rights abuses as necessary to preserve "social stability." It carries out involuntary population relocation and rehousing on a massive scale, and enforces highly repressive policies in ethnic minority areas in Tibet, Xinjiang, and Inner Mongolia."
http://www.hrw.or...rs/china
TegiriNenashi
2.8 / 5 (9) Aug 20, 2014
China is communist


China is a moderate national-socialist (fascist) state.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (19) Aug 20, 2014
What 'progressives' have wrought:
"Elder mentioned that there is "a whole bunch of crap going on in the inner city as a result of no fathers," which he said "is a result of 50 years of the War on Poverty launched by Lyndon Johnson."

"Today, we vote 95% for the Democratic party, and what's the result? Destroyed families, bad schools, high crime, and then they've gotten us believing that the real enemy is the Tea Party, is John Boehner, is Larry Elder," he stated. "It's unbelievable what they've done to the mentality of black people in this country.""
http://www.breitb...ssed-Off
Benni
3.4 / 5 (14) Aug 20, 2014
@ rp142..........most of the trolls on this site don't even know they are trolls.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (15) Aug 20, 2014
China is communist


China is a moderate national-socialist (fascist) state.


How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

All socialist states are the same. The state controls private property. The flavors of socialism are fascism, communism, corporatism, ... All that changes is how the tyrants are chosen and how tyrannical they are.
RobertKarlStonjek
2.6 / 5 (14) Aug 20, 2014
Both the trolls and scientist get the Galileo story wrong.

He WAS supported by the church and his friend, whom eventually became Pope, was a keen admirer of his work.

He fell into disfavour when he claimed that the sun WAS the centre of the universe rather than just claiming that a sun centred model could better predict the position of heavenly bodies such as planets and especially their moons.

This one point is where the conflict with the church flared up.

Was Galileo right? In fact no, he wasn't. The sun is not the centre of the universe. Neither is the Earth.

But both sun centred AND Earth centred models are still in use. Earth centred models are used to plot the position of Earth satellites both natural (eg the moon) and artificial (eg communication satellites).

Galileo was right about the Earth moving, but the Church was right in that the sun centred model is just a model and does not represent reality (the sun is not the centre of the universe).
strangedays
4.8 / 5 (17) Aug 20, 2014
The 'progressives' racist affirmative action programs have kept millions in virtual slavery and we see the results in MO the past few days.


Once again - Ryggy brings up the topic of race - when commenting on an article about science, and trolling. Would you care to make a hateful comment about people from 'turd world countries' while you are at it.

I concurr with supamark - the irony of an article about pseudoscience - bringing out so much pseudoscience....

Toiea
2.1 / 5 (10) Aug 20, 2014
but the Church was right in that the sun centred model is just a model and does not represent reality (the sun is not the centre of the universe)
But this is exactly what the Christian theological model of celestial spheres claimed.
China is a moderate national-socialist (fascist) state.
IMO your problem is in somewhat biased/shifted definitions of political concepts - it's hard to agree in something after then, to get testable predictions the less. The established definitions of terms should be respected with everyone here, or the discussion will remain clueless.
TegiriNenashi
1.2 / 5 (17) Aug 20, 2014
hateful comment about people from 'turd world countries'...


That is hilarious (if it were not so sad in the light of today news)! Look at yourself: your politically corrected mindset doesn't recognize jokes anymore.
TegiriNenashi
1.6 / 5 (14) Aug 20, 2014
China is a moderate national-socialist (fascist) state.
IMO your problem is in somewhat biased/shifted definitions of political concepts - it's hard to agree in something after then, to get testable predictions the less. The established definitions of terms should be respected with everyone here, or the discussion will remain clueless.


Your assertion that me (or anyone, for that matter) being "somewhat biased" is vacuous. Besides, this is not just my opinion (China fitting into fascist category) -- I have seen it on some discussion board a while ago. It stroke me how accurate that observation was.
strangedays
4.8 / 5 (19) Aug 20, 2014
That is hilarious (if it were not so sad in the light of today news)! Look at yourself: your politically corrected mindset doesn't recognize jokes anymore.


What news might that be that would justify a racist comment about people from poor countries in other parts of the world? The old "it was just a joke - so lighten up" does not make you look too smart Tegir.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (17) Aug 20, 2014
Ryggy brings up the topic of race - when commenting on an article about science, and trolling.

It's just example of the failure of the 'progressives'.
biased/shifted definitions of political concepts

It's an accurate definition and is supported by data.
Bias occurs with those who like socialism and try to hide its failures. Just as AGWites do.
strangedays
4.8 / 5 (20) Aug 20, 2014
It's just example of the failure of the 'progressives'.


It was just an example of your hateful world view - it is never too far from the surface is it?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (16) Aug 20, 2014
Julien is being a troll.
They claim to value proof, then declare God is not present but refuse to prove it... They'll parade how psychologists removed homosexuality as a mental disorder, but refuse to mention they were pressured to and that there are facets of homosexuality they still consider mental problems
Maybe if I yell julien won't be able to pretend he doesn't hear me.

JULIEN! WE KNOW YOUR GOD DOESNT EXIST BECAUSE HIS BOOK IS FULL OF LIES ABOUT THINGS THAT DIDNT HAPPEN! AND YOUR GODMAN AND HIS MOM WERE DESIGNED AS GAY PEOPLE!

There that oughta do it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (18) Aug 20, 2014
I downvote those two reflexively,

Why bother?
For me, to receive a '1' from AGWite/socialists/'liberals'/'progressives' is badge of honor.
Another martyr. You guys make me sick.
TegiriNenashi
1.3 / 5 (20) Aug 20, 2014
...justify a racist comment about people from poor countries in other parts of the world?


So what is wrong with calling a spade a spade? When a certain race occupies disproportional amount (39.4%) of the total prison and jail population, why would you insist me thinking highly about this ethnicity? Oh, because wrong actions took place 300-150 years ago! Can we please move on?
rp142
4.9 / 5 (11) Aug 20, 2014
@ rp142..........most of the trolls on this site don't even know they are trolls.


I'm sure some of them don't realise they have become trolls but many of them do. Some go online with the intent to troll because they enjoy it, not out of frustration over a closely held view point. They do not set out to convince the audience that their perspective is the correct one.

They have been a 'causes' that I've supported over the years, only to be put off completely by expressions of extreme views that mean I no longer wish to be associated with the segment of the community.
strangedays
4.7 / 5 (21) Aug 20, 2014
why would you insist me thinking highly about this ethnicity?


I don't insist on you thinking highly about any specific group. I called Ryggy out for posting a racist comment. You now follow up - and dig the hole deeper.

The discussion of race - and issues like the high percentage of different ethnic groups in our prison system - is a highly complex discussion. This is not the place for that discussion. BUT - innapropriate racist comments - like using the term 'turd world countries' should be called out. You want to dig the hole deeper - and exhibit your racism on top of Ryggy's - have at it.
TegiriNenashi
1.7 / 5 (17) Aug 20, 2014
This is a supposedly scientific site. So, when somebody makes an observation that a certain group of people is quantifiably different from the other group, and summarizes his or her finding with adjective "backwards", does it automatically qualifies him or her as racist? This seems to me as suppression of scientific thought.
Captain Stumpy
4.6 / 5 (15) Aug 20, 2014
Do you think the " trolls just come to this site to down vote the heretics without even bothering to read the articles" stuff? This is exactly what I'm experiencing at many sites, including PO
@Zephir
no, what you are experiencing is people who are well versed in science (or at least more well versed than you are) downvoting you because all you offer is unproven conjecture or debunked pseudoscience
AWT is
DEBUNKED: http://arxiv.org/...1284.pdf , http://exphy.uni-...2009.pdf

just like Baud, ryg, antiG and the others of your ilk above, NO EMPIRICAL evidence means PSEUDOSCIENCE
Captain Stumpy
4.6 / 5 (18) Aug 20, 2014
So, when somebody makes an observation that a certain group of people is quantifiably different from the other group, and summarizes his or her finding with adjective "backwards", does it automatically qualifies him or her as racist? This seems to me as suppression of scientific thought.
@tegiri
if that "observation" is not backed up by hard evidence, empirical evidence, and proof that is supported by more than just the "few people" you see posting in a comments section, and there is no statistical evidence helping...
Then you can say YES, it is racist...
SCIENCE uses a method for a reason... so that personal conjecture and beliefs do not taint the system... that is why the former RACIST beliefs have fallen away... NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE -things like: blacks are genetically lazy and not able to comprehend complex physics or machines (like during the days of the Tuskegee Airmen) were proven WRONG with empirical data

the claim MUST be supported by PROOF
strangedays
4.6 / 5 (17) Aug 20, 2014
Tegiri
This is a supposedly scientific site.


Right - so throwing around hateful terms like 'turd world country', and bringing up race - when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand (trolling, and pseudoscience) are not OK.

Here in the U.S. - the issue of race is a very sensitive one. We have hundreds of years of slavery, segretation, social/economic disparity etc. Definitely a subject to be careful around. You talk of science - and then use words like 'backwards'. What is 'backwards?' Are you saying that all African Americans are backwards? Maybe you should do some reading on the poverty trap, and scoi-economic disparities - brought about by economic factors. Nothing to do with 'backwards' - lots to do with a system that makes it very tough to climb out of poverty. Yes Tegiri - you and Ryggy have advertised your racism.
mooster75
4.3 / 5 (11) Aug 21, 2014
I downvote those two reflexively,

Why bother?
For me, to receive a '1' from AGWite/socialists/'liberals'/'progressives' is badge of honor.

Well, allow me to present to you...
Michael Brown
5 / 5 (20) Aug 21, 2014
Of course some of the tactics used by trolls that I described in the article are appearing in the comments.

An interesting variation of the selective use of experts is to take quotes of a few famous scientists from the past who were wrong, and then assume their attitudes applied to all scientists of the time.

The claim that scientists believed rockets couldn't operate in a vacuum would be an example of this. Perhaps some scientists believed this (references please), but the most famous promotion of this idea was a New York Times editorial from 13 January 1920 which was finally "corrected on 17 July 1969. One can compare the style of the 1920 editorial with some of the editorials attacking climate science in 2014.

Captain Stumpy
4.7 / 5 (18) Aug 21, 2014
Of course some of the tactics used by trolls that I described in the article are appearing in the comments
@Michael Brown
It is good to see an author take time out for responses on a public site like this. THANKS.

With a site like this, it also does no good to even report the post and get the people banned/deleted from the site.

Take the poster above called Toiea. Toiea is also known as Zephir and runs his own pseudoscience page elsewhere (I think on reddit). He has had AT LEAST 18 different profiles here just since (i think) jan... as soon as they ban him, he creates another profile and starts in again.

we know that zephir will never be able to accept reality or empirical evidence (especially anything that debunks his faith)

At least there are articles like this to reference showing newbies how to spot the trolls. It also teaches people how to think critically and get evidence before accepting a post/comment/etc. as true or real.

again... thanks!

Michael Brown
5 / 5 (18) Aug 21, 2014
An example of a half-truth is Einstein was an amateur. It is also incorrect that on this basis I would exclude a 21st century Einstein from debates.

While Einstein was working in a patent office in 1905, this was also the year he received his PhD in physics. Einstein's ideas were motivated by observations by professional scientists (Hertz, Michelson, Morley), were published in scientific journals, were evaluated by professional scientists and accepted by the scientific community relatively rapidly (Einstein winning the Nobel Prize in 1921).

It took longer for Einstein's ideas to be accepted by people outside the physics community. Many non-physicists had strong ideas about Einstein's theories, even though they couldn't critically evaluate their content. This is very similar to current debates about science.

The Physics Today article "Science controversies past and present" by Steve Sherwood discusses this issue in some detail.
antigoracle
1.2 / 5 (21) Aug 21, 2014
Some techniques are comically simple. Emotionally charged, yet evidence-free, accusations of scams, fraud and cover-ups are common. While they mostly lack credibility, such accusations may be effective at polarising debate and reducing understanding.

I got to hand it to Michael Brown, he has taken trolling to a new level with this drivel that has no place on a science site. So it's no surprise he has succeeded in doing exactly what he accuses trolls of doing
marcush
4.8 / 5 (18) Aug 21, 2014
Wow, you can see how well Brown hit the nerve of a lot of people here! Great article. Trolls who cherry pick their sources are a disgrace. The hubris in their own opinions outweighing the worlds scientific community is absolutely astonishing. Antigoracle you are one of the best examples here. Congrats!
antialias_physorg
4.8 / 5 (17) Aug 21, 2014
(Einstein winning the Nobel Prize in 1921).

Agree with everything you say about Einstein not being an amateur.
Small correction: He didn't win the Nobel Prize for Realtivity but for his work on the photoelectric effect. And according to the Noble Prize website he was awarded the prize in 1922 as two prizes were given out that year and none in 1921 (in case no work is worthy the prize - as was judged in 1921 - it can be reserved for the following year)...he is therefore always listed as the winner of the 1921 prize.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (19) Aug 21, 2014
Are you saying that all African Americans are backwards?

African Americans are saying this.
Many of them.
But those who support keeping blacks voting for their own bondage attack blacks like Bill Cosby, Clarence Thomas, Thomas Sowell, Walter E. Williams, Allen West.
If any black person wants to judge by the content of his character, join the tea party movement. Become a conservative and you will no longer be considered black by 'liberals'.
Watebba
1 / 5 (16) Aug 21, 2014
Afroamerican culture is religious and careless and it's missing the analytical, contemplative attitude of white culture. Many African cultures still have no concept of time or numbers expressed in their language. We can dispute how deeply these difference is rooted in cultural environment and/or genes, but until the afroamericans will maintain cohesive ethnic groups and until they will defy the assimilation in the mixed marriages, then it doesn't really matter.
Regarding the conservatism/progressiveness attitude, then the afroamericans adhere on religion and traditions (including family value) like true conservatives, regarding their attitude toward entrepreneurship they tend to behave like true progressives regarding the occupation and governmental support. Note that the primitive (communal) societies of low economy density share many characteristics of both ideal communism, both Laissez-faire market (in the same way, like the low-energy vacuum phenomena are on the verge of QM and GR
Mayor__Dooley
4.8 / 5 (19) Aug 21, 2014
Well it seems the Trolls got poked with a stick, now it's wobblers and tantrums, they're out in force.
Their knee-jerk reaction is amusing and ironic, the same lame methods and as ever devoid of wit.
I doubt that some could even pass the Turing test.

Trolls also have martyr tactic, as recently used by Rygg. It is a mark of desperation, where their normal methods are faltering.
By maintaining a willful ignorance that is designed to insult, they try to invite mockery from those who see through their inane assertions. Once they get such a bite, they then cower and cry, claiming that this persecution makes them somehow more valid.
We can see a variant of this here, where it invites people to downrate its posts. But this includes another flawed assertion, that to disagree with anything it says will turn you into a 'liberal'.
Watebba
1.4 / 5 (20) Aug 21, 2014
Trolls also have martyr tactic, as recently used by Rygg. It is a mark of desperation, where their normal methods are faltering
The above article just illustrates, that at the moment when the mainstream scientists get desperate (because the layman public doesn't swallow their AGW propaganda), then they resort to Galileo and his martyrism as willingly, as the frustrated trolls. The both groups are dual and opposite, but the people who are forming them are the same - so they're trying to use the same psychology. Currently it just seems, Mr. Galileo is becoming an appreciated role model for both groups.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (19) Aug 21, 2014
Afroamerican culture is religious and careless and it's missing the analytical, contemplative attitude of white culture.


African blacks seem to fit in and prosper in Europe and the US.
Even blacks from former slave countries like Haiti and Jamaica prosper in the US. Mia Love's parents are from Haiti. She is running for US Congress in Utah and is viciously attacked by 'progressives'.
ryggesogn2
1.1 / 5 (18) Aug 21, 2014
Why didn't Brown debate science?
Compare and contrast Popper with Kuhn, for example?
The AGWites seem to be following Kuhn's science. Rejecting all data that won't support their theory.
Popper was motivated to falsification by the Marxists and Freudians. Theirs was not considered science, although they claimed their philosophies to be scientific. Popper singled out Einstein for proposing falsifiable theories and then conducting the experiments. To Popper, this was real science.
Then there is Billy Koen, "A Discussion of the Method". Science is just another heuristic.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (19) Aug 21, 2014
"Carson said, 'Look at my hometown Detroit and Chicago, New Orleans, Washington D.C. where the murder rates are astronomical. How many black males were killed by police last year? 100. How many black males were killed by other black males? 5,000. 50-1. That's a huge problem. We can't afford to be allowing these people just to be slaughtered in the streets and not doing anything about it. This is where we ought to be directing our attention. We can't afford to just throw those precious people away."

In reference to Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel, Carson said , "It's become politically incorrect to actually put your finger on the real problem. And you look in some of these cities like Chicago, Why don't we talk about their failed gun laws? And why don't we talk about what is their mayor doing? Why are things getting so bad? Because he's a friend of the secular progressives."
http://www.breitb...-Talk-Ab
Michael Brown
5 / 5 (16) Aug 21, 2014
Regarding Einstein and the Nobel Prize, I didn't say he won it for relativity, although many people erroneously assume that was the case.
Watebba
1 / 5 (15) Aug 21, 2014
The AGWites seem to be following Kuhn's science. Rejecting all data that won't support their theory.
This is an attitude of the whole contemporary science, which is claiming, the basis of scientific method is based on proposal of hypothesis and their validations with data. When these data don't fit, the hypothesis gets occasionally discarded, but the data are already lost. For contemporary scientists the random data aren't data at all, despite they already exhibit an interesting patterns. If they don't fit the pattern of particular theory, these patterns simply don't exist for specialized expert.
Another source of bias is the misinterpretation of noise criterions (like the five-sigma criterion used in nuclear physics) in judging of existence of boundary phenomena from naturally noisy data. For example because the probability of ball lightning is much lower, than the experimental noise of most statistics of lightnings, then the existence of ball lightnings should get ignored.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (19) Aug 21, 2014
Looks like he real genocidal racists are 'progressives' who seem to support the death of as many blacks as possible.
That was the eugenicist Sanger's intent when founding Planned Parenthood. Murder as many inferior humans as possible before birth.
Not just Sanger....
"Dawkins later added, "Learn to think in non-essentialist ways. The question is not 'is it human'?' but 'can it suffer?'"

When InYourFaceNewYorker tweeted, "I honestly don't know what I would do if I were pregnant with a kid with Down's syndrome. Real ethical dilemma," Dawkins returned, "Abort it and try again. It would be immoral to bring it into the world if you have the choice.""
http://www.breitb...he-World
Watebba
1 / 5 (14) Aug 21, 2014
While the above example may sound absurd for supporters of ball lightning (because we already "know" that this kind of lighting exists) - exactly the same criterion is used for quite serious dismissal of many other boundary phenomena like the psychic effects of cold fusion: because we don't actually understand the conditions for their reproduction, we are judging their existence from random datasets, which poses a problem, when the occurrence of phenomena becomes lower, than the experimental error of these datasets.
JohnGee
4.8 / 5 (20) Aug 21, 2014
Dance trolls; dance!
Watebba
1 / 5 (16) Aug 21, 2014
For example, basing on quite "unbiased" attitude the Higgs boson should never exist, because its common evidence in the collision datasets is deeply bellow margin of experimental error. Just because we KNOW, how these datasets should be evaluated, we can focus to very particular aspects of them (i.e. the energy symmetry of collisions) and to isolate the existence of Higgs boson from them. Our situation in judging of other boundary phenomena is analogous to analysis of random datasets, when you really don't know, which method we should use for their classification.

That is to say, the acceptation of many boundary phenomena suffers with hysteresis in contemporary science, even if we admit, that the scientists aren't biased against their acceptation at all. They simply have no method for their recognition by now. The problem arises, when they refuse to use such a method at the moment, when it's already known and when they still adhere on blind random criterion for their classification.
Watebba
1 / 5 (16) Aug 21, 2014
After all, the very similar situation did happen with dismissal of heliocentric model, because the absolute majority of direct observations pointed to geocentric model. Only few rather minor exceptions (order of Venus phases, Lunar crater shadows, etc.) indicated, that this hypothesis is wrong. All common statistical models pointed to validity of epicycles model instead. Based on criterions of contemporary science, the opponents of Galileo were therefore completely right with their dismissive stance.

Analogously most of arguments for existence global warming favor the AWG hypothesis, the arguments of skeptics are based rather on minute effects. The characteristic sign of all newly discovered phenomena is, they do manifest itself only in limited scope, so that they're disfavored with "unbiased" evaluation based on common statistic methods. When we apply the "reliable" "scientific" but naive statistical methods, then we actually disfavor most of new findings and progress from science.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.6 / 5 (18) Aug 21, 2014
Ryggy. How dishonest. How typical. Your post made it sound as if Dawkins was referring to black people as 'it'. And you left out the most important part of what Dawkins said.

"Yes, it is very civilised," Dawkins responded. "These are foetuses, diagnosed before they have human feelings."

-which is absolutely correct. And further, many religionists would resist any attempts to prevent prenatal birth defects, considering the womb 'gods black box' which we should be forbidden from tampering with. Birth defects are a judgement from god, not a medical condition, according to them.

"That's it in a nutshell. I want children with disabilities to be born, and I want their parents to be confident the children will receive the lifelong care they need."

-Because without suffering, who needs Jesus?
antigoracle
1.5 / 5 (22) Aug 21, 2014
I dub this physorg's first trollicle.
trol.li.cle
n.
An article (story, fabrication) that's trolling.
SaulAlinsky
4.7 / 5 (15) Aug 21, 2014
What a weak troll.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (16) Aug 21, 2014
. "These are foetuses, diagnosed before they have human feelings."

One is only 'human' when one has 'human' feelings?
Babies in the womb are human.
Babies have feelings in the womb.
Babies have human feelings in the womb.
antigoracle
1.2 / 5 (20) Aug 21, 2014
What a weak troll.

What a strong turd.

Hold on.. the TURDS and the TROLLS.
Yep, trolls that's exactly what a turd would brand those of an opposing view.
Watebba
2.4 / 5 (13) Aug 21, 2014
Babies have human feelings in the womb.
IMO the newborn children have rather animal feelings, given their mental ability just after birth. Sorta the feeling of chicken, which we use to barbecue with soya sauce. A disclaimer: This comparison wasn't meant literally, instructively the less - I just think, that the "human feelings" aren't a good/relevant argument in this matter.
Benni
1.1 / 5 (14) Aug 21, 2014
It took longer for Einstein's ideas to be accepted by people outside the physics community. Many non-physicists had strong ideas about Einstein's theories, even though they couldn't critically evaluate their content. This is very similar to current debates about science.


........hey there Michael, I have news for you you as a Nuclear/Electrical Engineer, this is still the case today & is consistently & amply demonstrated right here on this site. There is hardly a single person posting comments on a high frequency basis at this site who believes Einstein was scientifically accurate when he stated in his thesis on General Relativity that the Universe is a "quasi-spherical" structure, instead they believe it is "flat & infinite" in size.

I can see how those who've never seen a differential equation they could solve could be duped into the "flat infinite" concept, simply because the study of "entropy" involves differential equations but Einstein knew how to do the math.
ryggesogn2
1.1 / 5 (17) Aug 21, 2014
"All the more urgent that we should stay skeptical, even—or perhaps especially—of things we consider proven.

This skepticism is a central pillar in right-of-center thought. It was the conservative patriarch Edmund Burke who mused that "we are afraid to put men to live and trade each on his own private stock of reason, because we suspect that this stock in each man is small." It was the libertarian hero Friedrich Hayek who insisted that we recognize "the insuperable limits to [man's] knowledge" and favor organic social arrangements over clever schemes of our own design. And today, it is not progressives but leading center-right voices like Jim Manzi and Nassim Taleb who eloquently remind us that things are almost always more complicated than they seem.

The theoretical physicist Richard Feynman once quipped that "the first principle" of science is "that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.""
http://thefederal...-has-abs
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (16) Aug 21, 2014
newborn children have rather animal feelings, given their mental ability just after birth.

So it's acceptable to cut them to pieces and crush their skulls? After all, they only feel pain.
How does anyone know what a baby feels in the womb?
"He says his work has been able to show for the first time that the unborn baby engages in complex behaviour from an early stage of its development."
http://www.michae...s658.htm
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.6 / 5 (18) Aug 21, 2014
Ryggy why have you hijacked this thread? Are you a troll?
Babies have human feelings in the womb
Gut bacteria also have feelings. They respond to stimuli both negative and positive. Should we try to save them all as well? So do sperm by the way.

"Chemotaxis is movement of an organism in response to a chemical stimulus. Somatic cells, bacteria, and other single-cell or multicellular organisms direct their movements according to certain chemicals in their environment. This is important for bacteria to find food by swimming toward the highest concentration of food molecules, or to flee from poisons. In multicellular organisms, chemotaxis is critical to early development (e.g., movement of sperm towards the egg during fertilization) and subsequent phases of development (e.g., migration of neurons or lymphocytes) as well as in normal function."

-Consider this next time you are touching yourself and thinking of st theresa.
http://en.wikiped...t_Teresa
Modernmystic
2.3 / 5 (8) Aug 21, 2014
I can see how those who've never seen a differential equation they could solve could be duped into the "flat infinite" concept, simply because the study of "entropy" involves differential equations but Einstein knew how to do the math.


It does seem to fly in the face of what I believe, but observations seem to be telling us it is indeed flat...

http://map.gsfc.n...ape.html

Or at the very least much, much larger than we think.
Modernmystic
1.4 / 5 (8) Aug 21, 2014
Gut bacteria also respond to stimuli both negative and positive. Should we try to save them all as well? So do sperm, in exactly the same way.


While I sympathize and generally agree with your point of view...you're not really speaking to his question at all. The best one can infer is that you're saying two wrongs make a "right".

IOW are you suggesting that since gut bacteria do respond to positive and negative stimuli we should ignore the fact that human beings do too?
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (16) Aug 21, 2014
Dawkins asserted human babies can be killed because they don't have human feelings.
It is claimed Dawkins is a biologist.
His assertion has no basis in science.
freethinking
1.4 / 5 (19) Aug 21, 2014
RYgg what do ISIS and Abortionists have in common?

They both like to crush skulls and dismember innocent babies.

Even their justifications are similar:

1. Infidels are a threat to our way of life. vs. this unborn baby is a threat to our economic (or other) way of life.
2. Infidels are not human they are subhuman dogs vs. this unborn baby is not human, it is something else, subhuman.
Benni
3.3 / 5 (9) Aug 21, 2014
I can see how those who've never seen a differential equation they could solve could be duped into the "flat infinite" concept, simply because the study of "entropy" involves differential equations but Einstein knew how to do the math.


It does seem to fly in the face of what I believe, but observations seem to be telling us it is indeed flat...

http://map.gsfc.n...ape.html


........only because you & the those from whom you quote do not know how to follow the differential equations in courses of Thermodynamics in the study of Entropy & why that math proves an infinite universe cannot exist.

@ Modern, prove to me you have the same intellectual capacity as Einstein, show us your math disproving his thesis, show us your differential equations proving "flat & infinite", otherwise you fall right into Michael Brown's heretofore above stated authorship as a "troll" unable to "critically evaluate their content". You can't do this? You're a "troll".
Maggnus
4.7 / 5 (15) Aug 21, 2014
I like how the denier trolls flock to this article and demonstrate the tactics the author describes - it's like they have absolutely no self awareness.
Haha truth is stranger than fiction! Self delusion is an apparent prerequisite for the majority of conspiracist denialists.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (13) Aug 21, 2014
Dawkins is a biologist... no basis in science.
No troll you read one thing and think something else.

"These are foetuses, diagnosed before they have human feelings."

I know you religionists would rather them grow into teenagers so you can send them off to fight other religionists, but the world considers this uncivilized.

"The United Nations has declared the highest level of humanitarian emergency in Iraq and has accused Islamic State militants of carrying out "barbaric" acts of sexual violence against women and teenage boys and girls belonging to Iraqi minorities"

"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."
Eikka
4 / 5 (14) Aug 21, 2014
There's an important distiction to be made between trolling.

Trolls are intentionally wrong. They're not trying to sell you anything, change your opinions or change the world; they're in it to make you angry and then laugh at you. They know they're misrepresenting the issue at hand and use various rhetorical tactics towards that end to proverbially pull your nose and kick you on the shin.

When you're doing it for any other end, it's not trolling. The person may be a crank, a fool, a paid shill, ignorant, stupid, anything - but not a troll.

So the big flaw in categorically labeling anyone who persistently disagrees and argues with you trolls is that you're implying they know they're wrong and you are right. That is actually a fallacy known as begging the question, because by "arguing against trolls" you are in fact defining yourself and your own point of view the correct one by default.

TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (15) Aug 21, 2014
They both like to crush skulls and dismember innocent babies.
"
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks." psm137
Trolls are intentionally wrong. They're not trying to sell you anything, change your opinions or change the world; they're in it to make you angry and then laugh at you
Many trolls here might start out with sincere though misguided opinions, but get upset when they are proven wrong and so degenerate into trolling because they feel it is the only way to win.
Modernmystic
2.1 / 5 (10) Aug 21, 2014


@ Modern, prove to me you have the same intellectual capacity as Einstein, show us your math disproving his thesis, show us your differential equations proving "flat & infinite", otherwise you fall right into Michael Brown's heretofore above stated authorship as a "troll" unable to "critically evaluate their content". You can't do this? You're a "troll"


LOL. My god your ego is really tied up in this one isn't it?

First of all it isn't "MY" thesis, or "MY" math. That would be the people at the NASA. If you feel the need to continue to show an immature inability to discuss a topic like this then find someone else.....because I have absolutely no interest in doing that with you. Go throw your tantrum at the folks at NASA and others who do espouse the theory.

Can YOU show us the math that PROVES the Universe isn't flat? Proof mind you, do you have any observations that bear out your position? No? Well the WMAP data seems to. Which is more valid, math/theory or observation?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (11) Aug 21, 2014
Infidels are a threat to our way of life
Let the godder who is without sin cast the first stone.

"18.. but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed." john3

"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant... served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die." deut17

-Your books ALL demand exactly the same things.
Modernmystic
2 / 5 (8) Aug 21, 2014
There's an important distiction to be made between trolling.

Trolls are intentionally wrong. They're not trying to sell you anything, change your opinions or change the world; they're in it to make you angry and then laugh at you. They know they're misrepresenting the issue at hand and use various rhetorical tactics towards that end to proverbially pull your nose and kick you on the shin.

When you're doing it for any other end, it's not trolling. The person may be a crank, a fool, a paid shill, ignorant, stupid, anything - but not a troll.

So the big flaw in categorically labeling anyone who persistently disagrees and argues with you trolls is that you're implying they know they're wrong and you are right. That is actually a fallacy known as begging the question, because by "arguing against trolls" you are in fact defining yourself and your own point of view the correct one by default.


^^ Spot on!
Toiea
1.6 / 5 (14) Aug 21, 2014
Trolls are intentionally wrong. They're not trying to sell you anything, change your opinions or change the world; they're in it to make you angry and then laugh at you
There is not exact dividing boundary between malicious and unintentional trolling, as the intellectual laziness is just another form of moral dishonesty. Many trolls could learn a bit about opinion of the other side and make conclusion from it, but they will not do it from egoistic reasons. After all, even the scientists could become familiar with opinion of the other side, but they're too haughty and separated from everyday reality for being able to do it. The trolling therefore follows as a result of energy optimization strategy of selfish meme.
Benni
2.4 / 5 (7) Aug 21, 2014
@ Modern, prove to me you have the same intellectual capacity as Einstein, show us your math disproving his thesis, show us your differential equations proving "flat & infinite", otherwise you fall right into Michael Brown's heretofore above stated authorship as a "troll" unable to "critically evaluate their content". You can't do this? You're a "troll"


.....because I have absolutely no interest in doing that with you.


......because you don't know how to do the math.

Can YOU show us the math that PROVES the Universe isn't flat?


Yes, Einstein's thesis on General Relativity. Ever try following some of it? Or is it your level of math skills preventing it?

do you have any observations that bear out your position? No? Well the WMAP data seems to. Which is more valid, math/theory or observation?


......and "the WMAP data which seems to", is your best dodge around your dismal math skills. I know far better than you what the WMAP is.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (9) Aug 21, 2014
There is not exact dividing boundary between malicious and unintentional trolling, as the intellectual laziness is just another form of moral dishonesty.


There is no such thing as unintentional trolling. That's just called "being annoying".

Trolling has just taken a much wider meaning in the public discourse than what it really means. Anyone who doesn't agree with you, makes you annoyed, or people who you simply don't like are now "trolls".
Modernmystic
2.8 / 5 (6) Aug 21, 2014
.....because you don't know how to do the math.


I don't know how to do the math, but that's not the reason I have no interest in playing out some emotional need you have to engage in pissing contests over the shape of the universe. Find a therapist for that one...

Yes, Einstein's thesis on General Relativity. Ever try following some of it? Or is it your level of math skills preventing it?


Post the relevant portion of the theory including the math then, or kindly shut up.

......and "the WMAP data which seems to", is your best dodge around your dismal math skills. I know far better than you what the WMAP is.


No you don't, because you don't need complex math to get the principle they're employing to show the geometry. It's all right here.

http://map.gsfc.n...eom.html

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying I tend to trust their conclusion more than yours...mainly because they're capable of expressing it, and expressing it in a manner that clearly isn't emotional....

Psilly_T
2.5 / 5 (11) Aug 21, 2014
this comment section is the dumbest piece of garbage around. This fighting is what is fracking the population in half. None of you can take a second to log off the freaking internet/close phys.org and call it a day. No one is winning anyone's argument here no matter how right you are. You just cause more fighting more name calling, more anger about a topics that are split near the middle on this planet. This bickering is why people are fed up with the news and media and why our younger generations are running into technology as an escape cuz the real world is just a bunch of turds and trolls yelling at each other and won't stop cuz both ego's are effed
Someone called toiea was the most sensible in responses (except the author) in this comment section, and he was pretty much ignored and "1" posted cuz he's Zephir. Not cause his comments were incorrect they were near spot on. Keep on arguing/yelling guys please you're accomplishing soo much for the world. Great example all of you. :(
cabhanlistis
2.1 / 5 (7) Aug 21, 2014
If you're bored, head back to "Is passing a Turing Test a true measure of artificial intelligence" and watch TheGhostofOtto1923 tell me what books I've read, then see me tell him what books I'm reading, then watch him tell me he has no way of knowing if I've read those books, and then tell me what history I've learned. If that isn't trolling, I don't know what is.
freethinking
1.3 / 5 (14) Aug 21, 2014
What we need is to prize Truth again. It doesn't matter what you believe, seek and speak the truth.
What we need is to prize Integrity again. We need to prize justice.

When scientists purposely falsify data to prove what they think they know, when they link unrelated fields of study to AGW to get headlines or to get money, when scientists demean those that don't agree with what they believe, society and science suffer.
supamark23
4.7 / 5 (14) Aug 21, 2014
What we need is to prize Truth again. It doesn't matter what you believe, seek and speak the truth.
What we need is to prize Integrity again. We need to prize justice.

When scientists purposely falsify data to prove what they think they know, when they link unrelated fields of study to AGW to get headlines or to get money, when scientists demean those that don't agree with what they believe, society and science suffer.


Your first paragraph says we should get back to telling the truth, then your second paragraph is filled with lies... good job.
Modernmystic
1.8 / 5 (10) Aug 21, 2014
First this....

this comment section is the dumbest piece of garbage around.


Then this gem...

cuz the real world is just a bunch of turds and trolls yelling at each other and won't stop cuz both ego's are effed


Finally this...

Keep on arguing/yelling guys please you're accomplishing soo much for the world. Great example all of you.


Is the irony lost on you Phyllis?
supamark23
5 / 5 (8) Aug 21, 2014
@PsillyT - the problem is that phys.org cannot be bothered to moderate their forums, so they devolve into 4chan's /b/.
Toiea
1.5 / 5 (8) Aug 21, 2014
There is no such thing as unintentional trolling. That's just called "being annoying"
All political opponents are "annoying" and as such censored. After all, even the Galileo has been considered annoying old chap. The competition of ideas is considered useful from long term perspective, but only rarely considered pleasant by the subjects of critique. Actually the competitors are considered the more annoying, the more they compete the mainstream, which just means, the more actual progress they just bring into competition. What the scientists hate the most is, when someone else shows, that the research can be made more effectively.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Aug 21, 2014
Not cause his comments were incorrect they were near spot on.

His comments are incorrect.
even the scientists could become familiar with opinion of the other side

Why should scientists be concerned about opinion?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (9) Aug 21, 2014
There is no such thing as unintentional trolling. That's just called "being annoying"
Some unfortunates suffer under delusions of grandeur. They feel it is their right to win by any means necessary.
Anyone who doesn't agree with you, makes you annoyed, or people who you simply don't like are now "trolls"
Well the author of the above article would disagree with you. But lets check an entirely troll-free source. Wiki.

"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

-As to intent:

"Popular recognition of the existence (and prevalence) of non-deliberate, "accidental trolls", has been documented widely"

-People who never learn how to argue can think troll behavior is normal.

freethinking
1 / 5 (16) Aug 21, 2014
Truth, Integrity, and Justice matter. I've been watching facebook and see how Progressives on my pages are reacting to the Michael Brown shooting. Anyone who says It doesn't appear to be a racial shooting and might have been justified. Are vilified. When undisputed facts are presented, cop has smashed face, Michael Brown strong armed, pushed around, and stole from a person 1/2 his size, they are slammed for "Not Caring" about Michael Brown's family. In other words, if you want evidence of their version of events or have evidence contrary to their version you need to shut up, because justice and truth doesn't matter, the mob wants a lynching.

How this relates to this article. How about insisting on truth from all people including scientists, community leaders, politicians even yourself, if you know if something is false don't keep repeating it. Truth matters! Justice Matters! Take a step back to see if you are nothing but a member of a lynch mob promoting your pet ideas.
Toiea
1 / 5 (8) Aug 21, 2014
Why should scientists be concerned about opinion?
Because the experts often lack the feedback from outside (1, 2, 3) - actually the more, the more they feel an experts in a given area. They do behave like the intellectual black holes - the more energy and effort they introduce into single point, the less information they can share with their neighborhood. Actually in many areas the experts cannot communicate well even in context of scientific community itself.

Niels Bohr: "An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field".
Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (14) Aug 21, 2014
@PsillyT - the problem is that phys.org cannot be bothered to moderate their forums, so they devolve into 4chan's /b/.
@supamark
there is actually much truth in that... except /b/ is funnier
Someone called toiea was the most sensible in responses (except the author) in this comment section
@Psilly_T
actually, he was downvoted in many posts for spouting nonsense... both as Toiea AND as wataba
especially for comments like this
with respect to classical aether model FILLING the space the dense aether model FORMING the space represents a natural counterpart in the same way, like the official science
the REASON that aether is "never seriously considered with mainstream science" is that it was DEBUNKED and thus science has moved on to bigger and better things

you don't keep used tampons as cherished parts of your loved one...
you throw them away

likewise awt

he does have a FEW valid points up there, but it is intermixed with bs...
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (13) Aug 21, 2014
Anyone who says It doesn't appear to be a racial shooting and might have been justified. Are vilified. When undisputed facts are presented, cop has smashed face, Michael Brown strong armed, pushed around, and stole from a person 1/2 his size, they are slammed for "Not Caring" about Michael Brown's family. In other words, if you proof of their version of events you need to shut up, because justice and truth doesn't matter, the mob wants a lynching
Bingo.

"A troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
How this relates to this article
It doesnt.
I've been watching facebook and see how Progressives on my pages are reacting to the Michael Brown shooting
-So why dont you go back there? And stay there?
Toiea
1 / 5 (11) Aug 21, 2014
the REASON that aether is "never seriously considered with mainstream science" is that it was DEBUNKED and thus science has moved on to bigger and better things
Apparently the sparse and dense gas model makes no difference for you. The sparse gas spreads the energy in longitudinal waves, the dense gas model in transverse waves, in similar way like the vacuum. The dense gas model was never considered with science, so it couldn't be debunked. All people who are claiming the opposite without reference are just willful trolls. You can downvote me, but it doesn't change the fact, you have no reference for your stance.
Toiea
1.4 / 5 (11) Aug 21, 2014
BTW If some scientists propose the option, that the Universe is formed with interior of black hole, or that the vacuum is formed with dense superfluid, then these ideas are also already DEBUNKED and we have bigger and better things to do? IMO they're already saying the same things like the Maxwell or Oliver Lodge did before hundred years - just with their own words. The dense aether model is the least problem for contemporary science - only for ideological trolls.
tadchem
1.8 / 5 (5) Aug 21, 2014
I believe it is crucial to develop a thorough familiarity with both Logic and it's polar opposite 'Illogic' (more widely known as Rhetoric - the art of persuading someone to accept as true a proposition that is not necessarily true).
In college as a student of Epistemology, I discovered and demonstrated (to the professor's chagrin) that many key fundamental arguments in philosophy are founded in equivocation and fought with rhetoric, albeit at the highest levels I have seen before or since.
In spite of their flaw to the logical thinker, the numerous Fallacies of Informal Logic (such as ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, appeal to authority, and the like) continue to be used because they are effective. Illogical but emotional people seem to enjoy the rhetorical 'Kool-Aid'.
baudrunner
1 / 5 (11) Aug 21, 2014
just like Baud, ryg, antiG and the others of your ilk above, NO EMPIRICAL evidence means PSEUDOSCIENCE
Thanks, Stumpy. I don't believe my comment here was in any way trolling on this site, but seeing as how you're off-topic (could be construed as trolling), indulge me.

Regarding those Nazca lines, my last post was a book list relating to the topic on that page. Some of those books were written by an individual who dedicated 60 years of his life to the translation of the cuneiform script on relatively recently discovered ancient Sumerian kiln-fired clay tablets belonging to a culture that far predates contributors to biblical text, which in at least in the case of the creation story in Genesis, can easily be construed as a synopsis of the Enuma Elish (Read the Attestation of Endubsar https://sites.goo...dubsar). He proposes, not avers, the existence of ancient astronauts. Pseudoscience?
Benni
3 / 5 (7) Aug 21, 2014
....because you don't know how to do the math.


I don't know how to do the math, but that's not the reason

....of course it's the reason, or you'd do it.

Post the relevant portion of the theory including the math then, or kindly shut up.


........it's too long, but is is all over the internet, several pages of it, give it a try & come back & tell us how your WMAP skills proved Einstein's math is wrong.

......and "the WMAP data which seems to", is your best dodge around your dismal math skills. I know far better than you what the WMAP is.


No you don't,


......oh yes I do, because I'm the Engineer with the math/physics skills outnumbered by the general population from which you come & proclaim bright nodes on interstellar gas clouds prove an infinitely flat universe.

because you don't need complex math to get the principle they're employing to show the geometry


....and this premise should supercede the premise of Einstein's GR?

Toiea
1 / 5 (10) Aug 21, 2014
just like Baud, ryg, antiG and the others of your ilk above, NO EMPIRICAL evidence means PSEUDOSCIENCE
Also, the lack of empirical evidence often means just the fact, that this evidence is already recognized under different names. The fluids and gases are spreading the energy in waves - and the vacuum spreads the light in waves, i.e. evidence for elastic inertial character of vacuum (without elasticity the waves would decay fast, without inertia the waves would be of infinite frequency). The fluids and gases exhibit the Brownian noise - well, and the vacuum exhibits the quantum noise as the Cassimir force indicates - something is colliding and swirling inside of it. You would have actually quite a problem to demonstrate, the vacuum is an empty stuff. I'm convinced, that if the superfluids would be known in the time of M-M experiment, then its (zero) result would be simply attributed to superfluidity of aether and the contemporary physics would appear quite differently.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (13) Aug 21, 2014
Regarding those Nazca lines, my last post was a book list relating to the topic on that page. Some of those books were written by an individual who dedicated 60 years of his life to the translation of the cuneiform script on relatively recently discovered ancient Sumerian kiln-fired clay tablets belonging to a retard troll
Bingo.

"A troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."
How this relates to this article

It doesnt. Idiot troll.
Modernmystic
1.4 / 5 (9) Aug 21, 2014
....of course it's the reason, or you'd do it.


No, not knowing calculus isn't the reason I don't want to get into a shouting match with a two year old. It's EXACTLY the same situation with you...but you do seem to be calming down a bit...

........it's too long, but is is all over the internet, several pages of it, give it a try & come back & tell us how your WMAP skills proved Einstein's math is wrong.


So, you can't really explain it then? Even though you said you could?

......oh yes I do, because I'm the Engineer with the math/physics skills outnumbered by the general population from which you come & proclaim bright nodes on interstellar gas clouds prove an infinitely flat universe.


The one who says he can prove NASA's interpretation of WMAP data is wrong, but really can't do it at all?

....and this premise should supercede the premise of Einstein's GR?


Observation always supersedes theory. If you have a different take on the DATA then share it.
Toiea
1.2 / 5 (13) Aug 21, 2014
The dense aether model is not the only victim of this kind of ignorant attitude, the string theorists suffer with it too. We already have dozens of evidence of extradimensions, for example from existence of short-distance forces, which are violating the inverse square law for gravity (the dispersion forces, Cassimir force, etc.) Just because these forces are already known under another names they're generally ignored in search for extradimensions - which is particularly ridiculous trait of contemporary theoretical physics.
Vietvet
4.6 / 5 (10) Aug 21, 2014
@buadrunner

Everything you post is pseudoscience, fantasy and wishful thinking.
Toiea
1 / 5 (11) Aug 21, 2014
Observation always supersedes theory. If you have a different take on the DATA then share it
Of course, but It's important to judge only the raw data, not their interpretation, which may be already biased. For example, the observation of zero fringe shift in M-M experiment are such a raw DATA - the deduction of absence of aether or reference frame or whatever else from these data is already interpretation of this result, which may be theoretically biased by itself so it cannot supersede any theory.

Also, as I already explained above, even the statistical analysis of data may be a subject of bias. The zero occurrence of ball lightning doesn't mean very much, if it was deduced from statistical analysis, which zeroed some occasional observations. Therefore the DATA concept is not so straightforward, as one may think.
freethinking
1 / 5 (13) Aug 21, 2014
Lessons for Trolls,

To make a conservative angry, Tell them a lie.
To make a progressive angry, Tell them the truth.
Toiea
1.8 / 5 (10) Aug 21, 2014
It implies, that the conservatives are exceptionally honest, which I'm not quite willing to believe. I even think the main quality one needs to be a conservative is the ability to BELIEVE in two mutually contradictory things at the same time.
The conservatives just tend to believe in opinions already established by tradition (which are usually well proven, but sometimes not). Progressive have false sense of uniqueness, conservatives have a false sense of consensus.
freethinking
1.3 / 5 (15) Aug 21, 2014
Toi, I like your point. Do I believe everything someone who says they are a conservative says? No. Do I believe that everything a Progressive says is a lie? No.

However that said, let's take a look at some general Conservative ideals, with a caveat that if you are a conservative and someone who says they are a conservative violates those ideals, they should be called out and compare them with Progressive ideals,

Conservative: Honesty, Integrity, ends do not justify the means, people are equal in value, people are smart enough to make their own decisions.

Progressive ideals are, uniformity of the masses, ends justify the means, people need to be lead by enlightened leaders.

So who would you trust more with something you value very much? Someone whom you have seen leading the conservative lifestyle, or someone whom you have observed leading the progressive lifestyle?
Toiea
1 / 5 (9) Aug 21, 2014
Personally, I don't understand, why the progressives/conservatives are disputed here so much, as the article topic is rather orthogonal to this duality. Of course the trolls tend to be progressive, whereas the scientists who are ignoring them manifest their conservatism, but just at the case of global warming controversy these roles are inverted (most of "deniers" are conservative skeptics). So that the division to progressives and conservatives doesn't help the discussion very much. After all, we can observe many examples in the recent time, when the roles of conservatives and progressives in science are getting inverted in the same way, like we face the generation inversion in research of controversial topics (creationism, cold fusion, water clusters, parapsychology). These areas are generally researched with old conservative chaps, whereas the young "progressives" remain skeptical and actually more conservative in this matter, than their opponents.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (11) Aug 21, 2014
Toi, I like your point. Do I believe everything someone who says they are a conservative says? No. Do I believe that everything a Progressive says is a lie? No
Ya know, Im thinking ft is the progenitor of a long line of particularly insipid troll suckpuppets. I used to have a particularly unsavory selection of ordure from this sp clown on my profile page. Sucking up to her fellow downtrodden - a dead giveaway.
freethinking
1.5 / 5 (15) Aug 21, 2014
Otto, I haven't been keeping up lately on who is a sockpuppet, but if I recall correctly you were a great sockpuppet master. Progressives are well known to use sockpuppets while accusing others.
NOM
4.9 / 5 (13) Aug 21, 2014
@Eikka
I (mostly) disagree with your statement:
When you're doing it for any other end, it's not trolling. The person may be a crank, a fool, a paid shill, ignorant, stupid, anything - but not a troll.

By your definition Zephir (Toiea... whatever) is just a crank, or stupid. While he is both of those, his number of banned accounts are now well into triple figures. That's troll behaviour.
By your definition ryggesogn2 is just stupid. Again true, but his willful ignorance and use of most the tactics detailed in the article define him as the troll he is.
However, your definition does work for Uncle Ira who is neither stupid nor a crank, but does occasionally behave like a troll (albeit on the side of light).
Toiea
1.3 / 5 (13) Aug 21, 2014
Why not to refrain of troll/crackpot labeling and remain on topic with arguments only? Under such a situation it will become immediately apparent, who is troll and who isn't. The troll labeling is nothing else but an ad-hominem fallacy. It doesn't bring any actual content into Socratic discussion. Even if it would be perfectly clear, who is troll and who isn't - how it could change the need for arguing his posts? Such a need must by judged individually anyway ("even the blind chicken can find its corn").
NOM
4.6 / 5 (14) Aug 21, 2014
@Zeph,
Since when have you ever remained "on topic"?
Do you genually think that you aren't a troll?
Toiea
2.7 / 5 (11) Aug 21, 2014
Of course I'm not very sure about it, so I wouldn't discuss it here.
NOM
4.5 / 5 (12) Aug 21, 2014
Good answer Zeph. You get a 5 for that. I have given you one once before, but it was accidental.

On ratings. The physorg ratings system has spawned its own version of trolls.
The worst example of this was Noumenon. On the surface he merely fitted Eikka's category of "ignorant". But he was eventually caught out with (and eventually admitted to) having at least 50 sockpuppets that he used to uprate everything he posted and to downrate people he disagreed with.
Benni
3.6 / 5 (8) Aug 21, 2014
No, not knowing calculus isn't the reason I don't want to get into a shouting match with a two year old.


I'll admit, I was a little more than 2 yrs old when took my first calculus course.

It's too long, but is is all over the internet, several pages of it, give it a try & come back & tell us how your WMAP skills proved Einstein's math is wrong.


So, you can't really explain it then? Even though you said you could?


Why do you think you need me to explain it? You're having a problem with Einstein explaining it? Go to a Relativity website & get busy, you don't need to lean on me as the crutch for you're inability to understand General Relativity.

Observation always supersedes theory.


Einstein put forth his GR thesis before the first galaxy was observed beyond our own. His math proved expansion of the universe should exist, also the existence of black holes, at first even he questioned his own premises, today GR is the premise of gravity & energy.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (14) Aug 21, 2014
the division to progressives and conservatives doesn't help the discussion very much.

Yes it does.
Especially when AGWites accuse those who are skeptical are in they employ of some corporation.
While the AGWite professionals are employed by the govt and are able to use the power of the state to plunder and coerce, aka 'progressivism'.
Benni
2.5 / 5 (6) Aug 21, 2014
"Cherry picking" a few studies and ignoring the bulk of the literature is obviously a common debating tactic, both online and in the media.


@Modern......and it is this statement by Brown right at the outset that goes to the heart of your premise that WMAP data has been "observed" to prove the universe is "flat & infinite", an oxymoron term which by definition is completely incongruous in etymology, but of course with your math skills you wouldn't know what I'm even talking about, however with your abundance of malicious trolling company on this site, I have no doubt how comfortable you feel denying the language of science.

Do you recognize an "oxymoron" terminology when you read it? Look it up, then come back & try explaining why "flat infinite universe" is not an oxymoron term & troll that around to the praise of so many of the rest of the "hate science" trolls who dominate this site.
Bart R
4.4 / 5 (8) Aug 21, 2014
I have to agree with some, that "troll" isn't a particularly helpful word. It's imprecise, can be used by anyone to mean anything, and so will be exploited by trolls most easily.

Look what they did with "Global Dying" within an hour. Galileo, Newton, Feynman are all subverted by the people you're trying to identify. "Propagandist", they turn on its head. They even call what they do "Science". Their tools are lampoon and spoof, Big Lie repetition and their conditions are projection and Dunning-Krueger syndrome.

The term you're searching for is "Nescient". The nescient are attracted to the idea of doubt, uncertainty, one-sided skepticism, feigned hypotheses they then 'confirm' by cherry-picking the data most likely to reflect well on their invalid case, and using fallacious reasoning to bolster their claims. They'll poke holes in better arguments with irrelevancies and focus on noise and the least-good forms of data, in forums stacked to favour their own cheerleaders.

"Nescient".
NOM
3.9 / 5 (11) Aug 21, 2014
Nullscient would be more appropriate for the likes of Zephir.
Da Schneib
3.5 / 5 (11) Aug 22, 2014
Then there are trolls who use appeal to authority.
Appeal to authority is only a fallacy if the authority is not really an authority. The vast overwhelming community of physicists is a real authority. Pretending they're not is the fallacy.
Benni
1.6 / 5 (13) Aug 22, 2014
Appeal to authority is only a fallacy if the authority is not really an authority. The vast overwhelming community of physicists is a real authority. Pretending they're not is the fallacy.


....another true but colossal blunder you have made on this social networking site dominated by the likes of Modernmystic, Stumpy/Ira, Vietvet, and the rest of the "downvoting science trolls" who outnumber those of us who've seen a lot of differential equations we know how to solve.

.... "cherry picked data" by this bunch all over the place along with threats made by them to ping, hack & phish ISP accounts to shout & shut down the premises of those with a demonstrable background in the most challenging fields of scientific endeavors, to shut down those who would dare raise a dispute with them over their ability to come to a science site & use the language of science but who instead use the language vulgarity & ping hacking threats to shut down scientific discourse.
Modernmystic
2 / 5 (8) Aug 22, 2014
I'll admit, I was a little more than 2 yrs old when took my first calculus course.


It's unfortunate you never took a course in social skills.

Why do you think you need me to explain it?


I must have incorrectly assumed you apply the same standards to yourself as you do to me. If you don't need to explain it then why all the drama? People like you CAUSE drama because they DO need to prove a point. If it wasn't a big deal you wouldn't have said anything to begin with....but you did.

Einstein put forth his GR thesis before the first galaxy was observed beyond our own.


What this has to do with observation superseding theory I don't know. It was observation that confirmed GR the robustness of GR. It's observation that can show its weakness too, after all it's not religious dogma is it.

(cont.)
Modernmystic
2.6 / 5 (10) Aug 22, 2014
but of course with your math skills you wouldn't know what I'm even talking about, however with your abundance of malicious trolling company on this site, I have no doubt how comfortable you feel denying the language of science.

Do you recognize an "oxymoron" terminology when you read it? Look it up, then come back & try explaining why "flat infinite universe" is not an oxymoron term & troll that around to the praise of so many of the rest of the "hate science" trolls who dominate this site.


And here is where we part ways. You don't want to discuss, you want to bully, call names, and cajole until someone agrees with you without you ever presenting a single argument or giving a single cogent explanation of your position.

Find someone else to work out your issues with. It's very obvious your identity and emotions are inured in this subject and you're over the top intense and defensive about it. I have no time for this level of immaturity. Good luck finding someone who will :)
Modernmystic
1.4 / 5 (10) Aug 22, 2014
Appeal to authority is only a fallacy if the authority is not really an authority.


Patently false.

http://en.wikiped...uthority

"Fallacious examples of using the appeal include any appeal to authority used in the context of logical reasoning, and appealing to the position of an authority or authorities to dismiss evidence,[2][3][4][5] as, while authorities can be correct in judgments related to their area of expertise more often than laypersons, they can still come to the wrong judgments through error, bias, dishonesty, or falling prey to groupthink. Thus, the appeal to authority is not a generally reliable argument for establishing facts.[6]"

It doesn't matter what authority we're talking about at all. It's totally irrelevant to the fallacy.

This is why DISCUSSION and constant re-evaluation is necessary....unless of course you're a cult leader...
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Aug 22, 2014
I quote CS Lewis not because he is expert but because I agree with him.
Comments about race from Ben Carson, are I believe, from an expert, and I agree with him for what he says.
It seems to be the 'liberals' who quickly attack any reasonable, or unreasonable, critique of AGWism as not from a 'climate scientist' and when that fails, he/she is a paid shill.
Noam Chomsky is a professional linguist. Why does anyone listen to him as a expert on any other endeavor? They agree with his politics.
Captain Stumpy
4 / 5 (12) Aug 22, 2014
Thanks, Stumpy. I don't believe my comment here was in any way trolling on this site
@baud
you are welcome
i know you don't... but did you read Brown's replies to your posts? did you understand what he wrote?
seeing as how you're off-topic
and exactly HOW is that?
Regarding those Nazca lines
tl;dr
AND it is off topic... go back to the Nazca thread and troll this comment there

"cherry picked data" by this bunch all over the place ...blah blah blah
@benni-haha
are you STILL mad about being taught the differences between the PM function and the comment link at the bottom of every page?
you sure do hold a grudge... and usually i include links for proof, unlike a lot of your posts. that is not cherry picking, that is PROVING a point... sorry you can't read or get that. and that you don't know how to combat phishing and read links before you use them
maybe taking some computer classes will help

If you will notice, i upvote LEGIT comments, even from YOU
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (12) Aug 22, 2014
AGWites accuse those who are skeptical
@rygtard
actually, some of those "AGWites" as you call them are or were skeptics themselves, for one

for two, you are NOT a skeptic if you IGNORE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, you are a moron, a troll and being blatantly stupid

and lastly, we've been able to PROVE that anti-global warming groups are being employed and paid to sow FUD and try to undermine the science with scientific studies! http://www.drexel...nge.ashx

where is your PROOF, with empirical data showing otherwise? and blogs and opinion sites don't count... conspiracy sites are a dime a dozen... and you are the worst troll ever about THAT crap. all irrelevant links and NO EMPIRICAL DATA
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (11) Aug 22, 2014
Stumpy/Ira, Vietvet, and the rest of the "downvoting science trolls" who outnumber those of us who've seen a lot of differential equations we know how to solve
@benni and the jets
first off, there is Captain Stumpy, and there is Ira... two separate people.
and it can be proved. but you would rather listen to TROLLS than empirical evidence regarding that... your choice

secondly... you are making claims above without proof or empirical evidence, so that comment is TROLLING, because you cannot prove ANY of it

lastly, I am here for the SCIENCE
i don't care about popularity, only that it is correct and can be proven. I admit when I make mistakes, and i will ridicule people like YOU when you make stupid mistakes but try to blame them on everyone else except yourself (the originator of the mistake)

I will UPVOTE a post based on what I believe it to be> accurate or not.
I've upvoted even you, uba, zephir, and other trolls when I thought it was correct... sorry benni
that post FAILED
Captain Stumpy
4 / 5 (12) Aug 22, 2014
Then there are trolls who use appeal to authority.
@modmystic
Like DaSchneib said...
Appeal to authority is only a fallacy if the authority is not really an authority. The vast overwhelming community of physicists is a real authority. Pretending they're not is the fallacy.
ALSO... regarding some comments you made about that... appeal to authority is often accused when the person uses a link with studies and empirical data... what then?
especially regarding THIS part
appealing to the position of an authority or authorities to dismiss evidence
I am appealing to the EVIDENCE, not the authority of the link when i use a link. there is a HUGE difference.

so whining about appeal to authority when proved wrong on a subject is only the TROLL or idiots way of backpedaling and trying to save face... deal with it and accept defeat and learn.
baudrunner
1.4 / 5 (11) Aug 22, 2014
Some people spend just too much damn time on this site. Not to disparage their reasons for being here, it seems that when they're not trollin', they're rollin', so go ahead and have your fun. I can always go outside and play.

It's pretty tough to satisfy the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE freaks when they insist there isn't any even after providing link after link, and material evidence after material evidence, and book lists for their reading revelations (they seem to have all the time in the world so why don't they give those books a chance?).

So, what to their minds would constitute EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE of ancient astronauts short of having them land on their roofs and giving them a ride in a flying saucer? Honestly, I would like to know. Doesn't archeological evidence count as EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE?

I swear, the worst trolls here are the people who continue to disparage, critique, and basically lambast the ideas of others. You know who you are.

baudrunner
1.4 / 5 (11) Aug 22, 2014
So, if there's no explanation for certain archeological finds, and too many experts admit to that fact, then any proposal offered for consideration becomes an exercise in trolling? Lighten up people.

I never get mad at anyone who posts, no matter what they say, merely amused at the enthusiasm with which they respond to what they consider to be off-the-wall ideas. Sure, we can get pretty wacky, it takes all kinds. I'm pretty sure that someday the nay-sayers will eat their hats when E.T. comes a-knockin', mark my words.
Toiea
1 / 5 (9) Aug 22, 2014
Appeal to authority is only a fallacy if the authority is not really an authority. The vast overwhelming community of physicists is a real authority. Pretending they're not is the fallacy.
We already listened it about Holy Church in the medieval times. Such a large number of priests simply cannot get wrong - especially when their main motivation is just to to continue in their bellowed work and preaching... What the heck could get wrong here? BTW For further reading: 1, 2, 3.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Aug 22, 2014
blogs and opinion sites don't count..

When all the media is biased towards AGWism, the only solution are web logs.
After Martin Luther posted his 95 theses and the Bible was printed in a language people could read and understand, the power of the Catholic church dimmed.
With the internet, gatekeeping journals with 'pal' review can, and are being bypassed.
Toiea
1.5 / 5 (8) Aug 22, 2014
BTW It's difficult to judge the silent majority of scientist, but their loudest proponents are as prone to Dunning-Krueger effect, as the isolated trolls. They're so biased, so they even cannot realize, how biased they are. Another hidden danger is the size of their community. When everyone around you gets biased, then it's not easy for you to realize, you're biased too. It's sorta risk of frog boiled in the warm water (external D-K effect). Another sources of groupthink are already well described in social psychology: the pluralistic ignorance, the peer pressure, bystander effect, diffusion of responsibility, spiral of silence, etc... The scientists already described the cognitive risks of their community well - they just "forget" to apply them to itself.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 22, 2014
The govt pushes AGWism.
The govt lies, empirical data:
"TSA Admits Lying About Illegal Aliens Flying Without Proper ID"
http://www.breitb...ar-Forms
Captain Stumpy
3.9 / 5 (11) Aug 22, 2014
I swear, the worst trolls here are the people who continue to disparage, critique, and basically lambast the ideas of others
@baud
no... the worst trolls are the ones like YOU and zeph that post things that are CONJECTURE and expect others to accept it as proven fact.

no evidence is NO EVIDENCE
if there is no empirical evidence then there is no decision to be made. it is an OPEN question, moron... not PROOF that aliens are here. PERIOD
that is the FALLACY right there... the assumption that given no proof AGAINST something, it MUST be real.
When all the media is biased towards AGWism
@rygtard
yep. the whole world is biased and out to get you

NSA just messaged us the other day to keep you posting so it is easier to track you
Captain Stumpy
4.5 / 5 (11) Aug 22, 2014
The govt pushes AGWism.
The govt lies, empirical data:
"TSA Admits Lying About Illegal Aliens Flying Without Proper ID"
http://www.breitb...ar-Forms
@ryg
Wow...
just wow

there is only one problem with that...
when we argue with you about AGW, we use SCIENCE, STUDIES and EMPIRICAL DATA... not government links, sites, or government pronouncements

guess that sinks your conspiracy theory right there...

By the way... NSA told me to tell you to stop posting naked... the girl analysts are getting sick
baudrunner
1 / 5 (9) Aug 22, 2014
Here is a good example of fallacious debunking by figures of authority - in this case respected Egyptologists, who to my mind know no more than you or I about the subject - who refuse evidence that threatens their world view so as to maintain the existing paradigm, which is that we are alone in the Universe and that God made it so. The explanation that they provide for these cartouche carvings is beyond lame, nay, conjecture pure and simple, since they are very clear and precisely carved to represent exactly what they are, otherwise they would not have been so designed. Stumpy and Otto happily keep their company. Sad.

http://en.wikiped...roglyphs

Toiea
1 / 5 (8) Aug 22, 2014
no evidence is NO EVIDENCE if there is no empirical evidence then there is no decision to be made
The fact, you're refusing to accept this evidence, doesn't mean, that the megabytes of my arguments don't exist. You're just in position of Galileo opponents, who simply refused to look at this telescope for evidence of heliocentric system.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 22, 2014
we use SCIENCE, STUDIES and EMPIRICAL DATA...

All 'peer' reviewed by those who have stated they will keep dissenting work from being published.
M&M weren't allowed to be published for their critique of Mann.
A US senator forced the NAS to listen to the M&M and NAS agreed with much of their work.

What's great about science is one factual observation can destroy centuries of dogma.

Modernmystic
1 / 5 (9) Aug 22, 2014
Appeal to authority is only a fallacy if the authority is not really an authority. The vast overwhelming community of physicists is a real authority. Pretending they're not is the fallacy.


Pretending that because they know more than a layman that they are infallible absolutely is a fallacy. I'm honestly (no sarcasm) not understanding how someone who is obviously intelligent can not get such a simple concept. This is non controversial, logical, and widely accepted.

So, anyone trying to sidestep this fallacy is left with two choices;

Either accept that the authorities on logical argument have it correct and your argument is fallacious...using your own premise mind you.

Or that the authorities on logical argument have it wrong and that proves the fallacy correct...and your argument is still fallacious.

Authority (ANY authority) qua authority does not make an opinion a fact, no matter how you look at it.
(cont)...
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (9) Aug 22, 2014
ALSO... regarding some comments you made about that... appeal to authority is often accused when the person uses a link with studies and empirical data... what then?


Empirical data is not authority. Interpretation of empirical data by authority can absolutely give a fallacious conclusion. Can it not?

Now, TRY your level damnedest not to get defensive about this. I'm NOT talking about AGW, I'm talking about premises here. This is not personal...

I am appealing to the EVIDENCE, not the authority of the link when i use a link. there is a HUGE difference.


Indeed, if you are appealing to raw evidence I agree. If you're referring to an interpretation then you're not referring to a fact. I think most reasonable people give more weight to such interpretations than not, but anyone who confers the status of FACT to such interpretations is another HUGE difference.
(cont)
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (9) Aug 22, 2014
so whining about appeal to authority when proved wrong on a subject is only the TROLL or idiots way of backpedaling and trying to save face... deal with it and accept defeat and learn.


Nothing is proved by authority. You seem to think of this as more of an argument rather than a discussion and look at it in terms of winning and losing. Quite honestly that's a less mature way of looking at it than other ways. People don't learn by "accepting defeat", you have to convince them, and if you can't well...so what? Does that change reality or your feelings on the issue? If not, then why use such abrasive, defensive, and confrontational terms. Doing so tends to mean that you yourself aren't convinced of your argument and need agreement for reassurance.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 22, 2014
I'm NOT talking about AGW, I'm talking about premises here. This is not personal...

You assume AGW is personal? If so, why?
Uncle Ira
4.4 / 5 (12) Aug 22, 2014
@ Bennie-Skippy I am the independent operator. I come here alone and leave here alone too. I give you the bad karma votes because you say the things I don't believe. The reasons I don't believe them is because you repeated the same things every time you make the postum.

You keep telling everybody that you are the nuclear-engineer-Skippy as if that means they got to take your word for every thing you say. But you don't say the things like a real nuclear-engineer-Skippy would say. You don't sound like a nuclear-engineer-Skippy.

You keep telling everybody that your ideas are the same as Einstein's like that means your ideas got to be right. Even the not scientist-Skippy like me knows that don't mean much because even the Einstein-Skippy admitted he got a lot stuffs wrong.

Saying the different equations over and over don't mean you really know what they mean or how to do them.

You sound like you are pretending because of what you don't say to go along with what you do say.
mikep608
1 / 5 (7) Aug 22, 2014
I like to think that I have inspired this story. i don't want to sound arrogant, but I think I am correct about what I write.
Uncle Ira
4.2 / 5 (10) Aug 22, 2014
I like to think that I have inspired this story. i don't want to sound arrogant, but I think I am correct about what I write.


Non Skippy, don't worry about sounding arrogant Cher. But you do sound like you are begging for a silly looking pointy cap to wear.
mikep608
1 / 5 (8) Aug 22, 2014
I am correct in what I write. Most of the news stories about The Big Bomg, quantum mechanics, Higgs Boson etc, are all experiments and theories created by people who are comsidered by many to be all knowing fantasy level smart peple and we have to accept their word. Being a troll gives everyone the opportunity to argue that they don't know shit, and there are better alternatives.
mikep608
1 / 5 (8) Aug 22, 2014
Often attacks on science employ logic so flawed that it would be laughable in everyday life. If I said my car was blue, and thus no cars are red, you would be unimpressed. And yet when non-experts discuss science, such flawed logic is often employed.

most of the "experts" are not experts.
Michael Brown
5 / 5 (12) Aug 22, 2014
Plenty of trolling in the comments of course. In particular, emotionally charged claims thrown around without evidence.

One interesting misreading of this article (and others I've written) that I've seen online is that I'm claiming amateurs cannot contribute to science, which isn't true. A recent example of amateurs contributing to science is the detection of novae, which I have written about previously for The Conversation. Amateurs can certainly contribute to mainstream science.

What one has to be suspicious of is people with minimal science competency (certain trolls, journalists and politicians) shopping for a small minority of experts whose conclusions happen to suit a particular agenda. If those people cannot evaluate the data and methods, why are they selecting that minority of experts?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 22, 2014
(certain trolls, journalists and politicians)

Like, who?
And you have no agenda?
Michael Brown
4.7 / 5 (13) Aug 22, 2014
Quote mining is a classic tactic, as removing words from their context (a full sentence or paragraph) can change their emphasis or meaning.

People have their agendas (myself included). I want the most robust science to inform policy.

As noted above, one has to be suspicious of those who cannot evaluate the data and methods, and yet select a tiny minority of experts over a larger number of equally (or more) qualified experts.
Benni
1.7 / 5 (6) Aug 22, 2014
As noted above, one has to be suspicious of those who cannot evaluate the data and methods, and yet select a tiny minority of experts over a larger number of equally (or more) qualified experts.


.....and what frequently occurs on this site is that those who have evaluated the data(eq, Einstein's GR), found it to be precise (Einstein's GR), are impuned to the point of being threatened by a loud & vulgar gaggle of groupies who can't solve a trigonometric function much less an exercise in calculus.......now this is a group "to be suspicious of".
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Aug 22, 2014
I want the most robust science to inform policy.

What policy?
Do you choose a policy and find the 'science' to support it, or, should quality science determine the facts independent of any policy?
IPCC was created to use 'science' to support policy.
NOM
4.4 / 5 (13) Aug 23, 2014
rygtard2, this is yet another sliming example of you taking a statement completely out of context.
Do you have some sort of reading disorder?
Were you repeatedly dropped on your head as a child?
Have you forgotten to take your meds again?
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (10) Aug 23, 2014
Now, TRY your level damnedest not to get defensive about this. I'm NOT talking about AGW, I'm talking about premises here. This is not personal
@MM
not taking anything personal. and I understand your statement, and there is truth to it...
I just don't think that you can assume that the information is incorrect unless you can PROVE it is incorrect. and THAT is the essence of my post.

MANY people argue that links to empirical studies/ etc are not proof, and that the subject is not correct (see zephir argue against daw when i posted links proving aether wrong for proof of that statement) but nowhere is there any evidence of a like type, subjected to the same rigors of the scientific method refuting this either.

THEREIN lies the problem that I have with the comment

UNTIL there is refuting evidence from a like source, empirical and reviewed with the same rigor and using the same processes as the study, then it is simply conjecture and therefore irrelevant as proof.
Captain Stumpy
4.6 / 5 (9) Aug 23, 2014
You seem to think of this as more of an argument rather than a discussion and look at it in terms of winning and losing
@MM
no, i think of it as presenting science and empirical evidence and then everything else. the biggest problem with certain TROLLS is that they cannot recognize empirical evidence in their face (try looking at the Nazca lines story here on PO for proof of that: http://phys.org/n...orm.html )
a less mature way of looking at it than other ways. People don't learn by "accepting defeat"
They learn by accepting reality. But anyone who refuses to accept reality deserves scorn and ridicule, IMHO. there is no argument that WILL get through to these people... so at that point, like the Nazca point, it comes down to what can be proven. and links to empirical data can be proven... conjecture and delusional beliefs cannot

and as for some trolls... most of my comments are carefully crafted to elicit a response for my study
its fun
mikep608
1 / 5 (7) Aug 23, 2014
his is funny if you're drunk. Most of his rope theory is crap though. But at least he's not trying to prove that he's smart by being duped into needing to beliee(understand) every bit of nonsense thrown at us by "brand name scientists"

https://www.youtu...ydkWLIkk
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 23, 2014
Why it's so easy to tie AGWism with 'liberalism':

"So says environmental activist Deirdre Smith of left-wing pressure group 350.org. In an editorial written for Common Dreams ("Breaking News and Views for the Progressive Community"), she claims that it "isn't hard" to link the current tensions in Ferguson, Missouri with global warming.

She writes:

When crisis hits, the underlying racism in our society comes to the surface in very clear ways. Climate change is bringing nothing if not clarity to the persistent and overlapping crises of our time.
"http://www.breitb...nk-again
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 23, 2014
I want the most robust science to inform policy.

It's a subtle but important point.
Govt funded science gets the answers the govt wants to hear, if they want more funding.
The science behind the Keystone pipeline informed the state to proceed.
"Former Energy Secretary Steven Chu said Monday the decision to approve the Keystone XL oil pipeline is a political one, and not one founded in science."
"Chu served as Obama's Energy secretary from 2009 to last April. He's now a physics professor at Stanford University in California. He won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1997. "
http://thehill.co...olitical
strangedays
4.6 / 5 (10) Aug 23, 2014
The article that Ryggy is talking about above in Breitbart - is based on a very interesting article - http://www.common...ferguson

It is informative that Ryggy does not understand what the article is saying - and presents it as some kind of example of the evil 'liberal'. To me - it is pretty intuitive to see the connection the author is making. Poor communities are going to have the hardest time responding to natural disasters. Look hard at hurricane Katrina - and see which community felt that impact. So - IF climate change causes an increase in severe weather events - it is surely accurate to understand that minority communities will have the most difficulty responding - due to the established link in the U.S. of poverty and race. The author also makes a good point - in recognizing that there is under representation in the environmental movement of minority groups (I see this myself) - so a neat bit of self evaluation.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 23, 2014
Poor communities are going to have the hardest time responding to natural disasters.

Right.
Why are they poor?
How does forcing the cost of energy higher, which AGWites are doing, make those poor communities less poor?
Increased wealth enables adaptability to climate, earthquakes, floods, ....
Why do AGWites want to make everyone poor?
strangedays
4.2 / 5 (10) Aug 23, 2014
Why are they poor?


Do you ask that question because you really want to know?

Have you done any reading on the issue of institutionalized racism - and the effects it has on poor communities of color? Of course that is only a part of the question - but it would be a good place for you to start - if you were interested in addressing your own bigotry.
strangedays
4.3 / 5 (11) Aug 23, 2014
How does forcing the cost of energy higher, which AGWites are doing, make those poor communities less poor?


Keep showing your ignorance ryggy. I could give you a thousand links - showing you that renewable energy is going to provide cheap - sustainable energy for our world.

Let me give you a few to start.

http://cleantechn...es-2017/

http://www.greent...att-Hour

http://cleantechn...per-kwh/

http://phys.org/n...oal.html

http://www.triple...7-times/

http://www.fastco...ountries
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 23, 2014
Have you done any reading on the issue of institutionalized racism -

Who has institutionalized racism? 'Liberals'.
Toiea
1 / 5 (5) Aug 23, 2014
Which liberals? These progressive or conservative ones? The conservative liberals support liberty in private affairs, the progressive in these public ones.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 23, 2014
Which liberals? These progressive or conservative ones? The conservative liberals support liberty in private affairs, the progressive in these public ones.

Those who call them 'liberals': democrats, 'progressives', socialists, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, CNN, MSNBC, ...
strangedays
4.1 / 5 (9) Aug 23, 2014
Who has institutionalized racism? 'Liberals'.


I don't see racism as something that either liberals - or conservatives, or any other group are exclusively responsible for. Do you have a lifetime to study imperialism, segregation, economic disparity, slavery, poverty, educational disparity etc? I am not an expert - and don't wish to take up band width on this one. I think your blaming 'liberals' for an issue as complex as institutionalized racism is ridiculous and obvious. Guess you never heard of Strom Thurmond.

I think the solution - which is what I am interested in - lies in bringing economic opportunity to the world. Check out this video to see what is possible - if we can put our childish name calling aside - and bring clean, cheap energy to everyone in the world.

http://www.engine...omy.aspx

You Ryggy are clearly part of the problem - not the solution.
Benni
2 / 5 (8) Aug 23, 2014
As noted above, one has to be suspicious of those who cannot evaluate the data and methods, and yet select a tiny minority of experts over a larger number of equally (or more) qualified experts.


.....and who resort to this manner of commentary when challenged to prove their proficiency in the language of science, below quote from Stumpy:

"ROTFLMFAO
you DO REALISE that if I wanted to steal your info, I would just ping your server and get your internet IP which would give me the ability to go right to your doorstep? Easy since I KNOW your login here AND when you are on

you don't have anything of value to me.

and AGAIN! MORE PROOF that you are not an electrical engineer! LOL
YOU DON'T KNOW SQUAT about computers!"

.......even going so far as to make threats to hack another persons IP account, steal personal information for the purpose of phishing. This above quote from C Stumpy & his language is precisely the problem that rules the discourse here at PhysOrg.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 23, 2014
I don't see racism as something that either liberals - or conservatives, or any other group are exclusively responsible for.


Who supports Affirmative Action (institutional racism)?
Guess you never heard of Strom Thurmond.

Ever hear of Robert Byrd? 'Liberal' senator from WV who was a Grand Dragon in the KKK.
"The Republican base that Steve Israel says is animated by racism, nominated me -- an American of African descent and a great grandson of slaves -- for Lt. Governor of Virginia. They embraced me warmly, treated me respectfully and supported me enthusiastically. The liberal media on the other hand set out to destroy me. My white Democrat opponent was even caught on camera refusing to shake my hand. The new racism is very different in style from the old, but the same in substance. The old racists liked blacks who knew their place and stayed in it. The new racists behave exactly the same, but define our "place" as the Democrat liberal camp."
http://americanthinker.com/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 23, 2014
" neither Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, nor the liberal elites who prop them up represent the true values of the black community. Most black folks oppose abortion, support traditional marriage and favor school choice. Black leaders ignore these facts and dance to the tune of their liberal benefactors. My convictions come from my proud black father who took me out of foster care, raised me as a single Dad and never took a dime of government assistance. They come from my church upbringing which taught me to trust God, not government. Black conservatives want to break the cycle of poverty in the black community, not use it to perpetuate the grievance industry. Who are the real sell-outs? Who are the real racists?""
by E.W. Jackson is the former Republican Nominee for Lt. Governor of Virginia. He is a Marine Corps Veteran, graduate of Harvard Law School, President of STAND, Bishop of The Called Church and Senior Fellow of the Family Research Council.
Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (9) Aug 23, 2014
and who resort to this manner of commentary when challenged to prove their proficiency in the language of science, below quote from Stumpy
@benni and the tards
you really should add the rest of the conversation into the mix... show people the WHOLE conversation.
I was making a POINT that you are computer illiterate, as well as insignificant and irrelevant.

when you do NOT have the ability to share linguistic verbiage and technical information which is widely available regarding a technical or scientific subject, it is very obvious to those who DO have the ability, as you so repeatedly like to point out regarding differential equations. my comment was pretty much saying to you: "you don't know squat about computers" and anyone who IS computer literate recognizes your illiteracy and inabilities.

IOW - go take some freaking classes and stop being an idiot
Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (9) Aug 23, 2014
even going so far as to make threats to hack another persons IP account, steal personal information for the purpose of phishing. This above quote from C Stumpy & his language is precisely the problem that rules the discourse here at PhysOrg
@benni haha
and if you will notice... this is not a threat... this is telling you that you don't know computers...and telling you that it is far easier to get your personal info than you think.

it also pretty much says you are not worth it because you are not able to post legitimate information about a subject that has widely disseminated information that can be EASILY GOOGLED... which makes you look even stupider. that is why it says
if I wanted to
and
you don't have anything of value to me


you really DON'T KNOW SQUAT about computers, and should refrain from trying to make people think you DO know something

again: you cherry pick a quote without context... TROLLING just like the article says above.

benni the TROLL?
Benni
1.4 / 5 (10) Aug 23, 2014
....again: you cherry pick a quote without context...


.......quoted it exactly as you wrote it.

The problem is your mindset, if you're thinking those things, you're wishing you could do them, and you would if you could. You brag that with your computer skills you could do it if you wanted to. The problem is that your braggadocio is not congruent with your computer skills or you'd know that "pinging" ISP's cannot result in the end result you wished you could get, hacking IP accounts. You don't have the computer engineering skills for that, in lieu of which you resort to trolling.
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (9) Aug 23, 2014
quoted it exactly as you wrote it
@benni haha
but you left out the context... like i said... present the WHOLE argument... show how stupid you were being
The problem is your mindset... you would if you could
Actually, I CAN do them, but why would I bother with you? THAT was my point above, sparky.
"pinging" ISP's cannot result in the end result you wished
Pinging is talking to an ISP to establish it is there and then you can establish availability of connection and it can give you a host of information including transfer speed etc...TRAP/TRACE is a method of securing IP addresses, which CAN, in certain circumstances, track to your address (in MY circumstance, you will end up about 80 miles from my laptop IF you get my current IP addy that is used for connection. I have a dynamic IP and I also choose to use other masking agents like TOR to hide my IP from idiots on-line because I know what IS out there
as long as you know a profile and time on line, you can secure its IP
Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (8) Aug 23, 2014
You don't have the computer engineering skills for that, in lieu of which you resort to trolling.
@benni the moron
and this is typical trolling comment trying to entice me into doing what?
snatch your IP address? hack your system? what?
by the way, mr electrical engineer... if you are that good at computers, how come you couldn't tell the difference between a PM on this site and the CONTACT link at the bottom of the page... which is likely where you posted the above conversation from.
Why not post the ENTIRE CONVERSATION showing your own weaknesses? or is that too hard on your ego?

at least I can admit when I make mistakes, benni
all you do is throw around words like "differential equations" like it means something important... it only means that you are mathematically inclined ...so what?

now, given that you still want to play... why NOT PM me at sciforums and/or another site?
take your chance... you are an EE I can't be a threat to YOU
per your "wisdom" above

benni=TROLL
Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (8) Aug 23, 2014
I would just ping your server and get your internet IP which would give me the ability to go right to your doorstep? Easy since I KNOW your login here AND when you are on
@benni the tard
and just because i wrote it in the same line does NOT mean that it is the same function... now THIS is something that I would expect from someone who does NOT know computers. ASSUMPTIONS about pinging and getting an IP address without knowing what is what and what each function is capable of...
if you will remember, I've also said that I can use trap/trace to get your IP before in another conversation.

and THIS is just what I meant by "YOU DON'T KNOW SQUAT ABOUT COMPUTERS"

you know, your local community center or Jr. college has free classes for stupid folk like you to take lessons on the computer and learn a little...
perhaps you should join some classes?
you might just learn something important... like about how to use a firewall? anti-virus?online protection? Symantec?

go LEARN
strangedays
4 / 5 (7) Aug 23, 2014
Ever hear of Robert Byrd?


Yep - and in his early days he held a position in the KKK. He filibustered the 64 Civil Rights Act, and opposed the 65 Voting Rights Act. Later in life he got a 100% rating from the NAACP.

So- in other words - when younger - he was a conservative, racist bigot - who worked hard to institutionalize racism. Later he became more nuanced - and was seen as more liberal, and friendly towards civil rights.

Thanks Ryggy.
baudrunner
1.5 / 5 (8) Aug 23, 2014
and as for some trolls... most of my comments are carefully crafted to elicit a response for my study
its fun

AHA! Gotcha. Proof that Cap'n Stumpy is a troll, for baiting the trolls is a violation of posting rules on this forum.

Well, so what. He's right. It *is* fun. I can get him right riled up.

Incidentally, no-one here need fear anybody finding out their IP address. Reboot your machine or click your connection off and back on again, and you get a new IP address automatically. The only computers vulnerable to this type of hacking are the ones that are left on 24/7.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 23, 2014
"Byrd's racist history drew attention recently
when he went on national television and repeatedly used the n-word, one
of the most vicious racial slurs in existence, in an appearance on national
television. Byrd uttered the slur on Fox News Sunday with Tony Snow on
March 5, 2001. Despite the appalling nature of the remark, it went largely
ignored by the mainstream media and the self appointed "civil rights" leadership.
Whereas a similar remark by anyone other than a leading Democrat Senator
would assuredly prompt the likes of Jesse Jackson to assemble protest rallies
demanding resignations, the Jackson crowd was eerily quiet following Byrd's
remarks, issuing only low key suggestions that Byrd should avoid making
such bigoted remarks."
Read more at http://www.livele...1Vrhd.99
'Liberals' tolerate racists if they are 'liberal'.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 23, 2014
""The Jews don't like Farrakhan, so they call me Hitler. Well, that's a good name. Hitler was a very great man. He rose Germany up from the ashes." -- Louis Farrakhan (1984) who campaigned for congresswoman Cynthia McKinney in 2002 "
"Hymies.' 'Hymietown.' -- Jesse Jackson's description of New York City while on the 1984 presidential campaign trail. "
"1) "(Obama's) a nice person, he's very articulate this is what's been used against him, but he couldn't sell watermelons if it, you gave him the state troopers to flag down the traffic." -- Dan Rather"
"8) "Civil rights laws were not passed to protect the rights of white men and do not apply to them." -- Mary Frances Berry, former Chairwoman, US Commission on Civil Rights"
"11) "Let me see one of you adopt one of those ugly black babies." -- Abortionist Ashutosh Ron Virmani"
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 23, 2014
" 20) "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." -- Joe Biden

21) "I give interracial couples a look. Daggers. They get uncomfortable when they see me on the street." -- Spike Lee"
"23) "We got to do something about these Asians coming in and opening up businesses and dirty shops. They ought to go." -- Marion Barry"

"Liberals need racist foes to vanquish. Most of the time they have to resort to finding them where they obviously aren't there."
"Most incredible to liberals, however, is our claim that good economic policy (especially when combined with a well-ordered social structure) is actually good for everyone. We're not all jockeying for the same pot of goods. It isn't a zero-sum game. More opportunity for me can mean more prosperity for you, and vice-versa. We can all win."
http://thefederal...-racist/
baudrunner
1 / 5 (4) Aug 23, 2014
the n-word, one of the most vicious racial slurs in existence
..wasn't always that way. The word comes from the name of the country where early in world history most European visitors, primarily the Dutch, first met black people, and that is Nigeria. To call people from Nigeria "Neegers" was no different that calling people from America "Amerikaaners", or people from Canada "Kanadees". Today, African Americans are offended by the use of the word "Negro", which is Anglification of the word "Neeger", or "people from Nigeria". Perversion of that word leading to the n-word began in America.

In fact, racism is fairly new in our history, and its roots lie largely in the Americas. My maternal grandmother's grandfather was black, and she was of stout Dutch stock. Black princes and nobles mingled freely in European culture among the elite before, and during the slave trade era.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 23, 2014
Why they are poor:
"For the first time in American history during a supposed economic expansion, real after tax income fell by -5.9%. "
"Following the supposed recovery beginning in June 2009, real household income for African-American households was worse at -7.7% than the national average. But holders of college two-year Associates Degree have been crushed with real household income down -9.8%. The only households to experience an increase in real income during the period were those 65 and older, who saw an average gain of +5.8%."
" From this analysis, Americans have lost real income gains during an economic recovery for the first time in American history. The worst impacted during the Obama Administration have been his key constituencies of those who are single, with some college education, and African-Americans. "
http://www.breitb...er-Obama
ItsThatGuy
4.7 / 5 (7) Aug 23, 2014
Why would you ever bother linking to garbage like Breitbart? Especially on a science website? There is no greater purveyor of misinformation on the entire internet, people who never read or watch or listen to the news are more well-informed than people who read Breitbart.
Toiea
1 / 5 (5) Aug 23, 2014
Why not - but the income isn't everything for quality of life, when you get lower expenses, for example due to Medicare program. The crisis has started most violently during (conservative?) Bush Administration - Obama's just fighting the fire, which was already there. As the era of cheap oil and free colonies is already over, I've only one recommendation here: you should invest into research, which would really supersede the existing energy sources, like the cold fusion. The so-called "renewables" just replace one non-renewable resource (fossil fuel) with another (metals and minerals) and in their consequences they're doing the economical situation even worse.
Benni
1 / 5 (8) Aug 23, 2014
... even going so far as to make threats to hack another persons IP account, steal personal information for the purpose of phishing. This above quote from C Stumpy & his language is precisely the problem that rules the discourse here at PhysOrg


@benni haha
and if you will notice... this is not a threat...


You made the threat with this quote:

"I would just ping your server and get your internet IP which would give me the ability to go right to your doorstep?"

.....this is telling you that you don't know computers...and telling you that it is far easier to get your personal info than you think.


No, the "doorstep" rant is about your malicious mindset. The context of your braggadocio is concluded to give the impression you can find my residence. This kind of trolling rhetoric may even be an actionable offense.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 23, 2014
Breitbart prints what the others fear to print and have a solid reputation of uncovering what 'liberals' fear to have exposed.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 23, 2014
Marxists racists:
"

Shortly after the [1992 Los Angeles] riot, I appeared on a radio talk show with Clark Kissinger, a former president of SDS. Kissinger had created a new organization in South Central, Refuse and Resist, to promote the idea that local Crip gangs were revolutionaries battling an oppressive state. On the air, Kissinger was adamant that the looters and burners were social rebels, and that anyone doubting this was a 'racist.'"

Horowitz wrote of the riot that "Two thousand Korean businesses were burned, and fifty-seven people killed – many of them targeted, like the businesses destroyed, simply because they were not black." "
http://www.breitb...nd-riots
strangedays
3.9 / 5 (7) Aug 23, 2014
Keep dancing racist Ryggy. So now your contention is that it is the 'liberals' that are the real racists - and the Conservatives are the true inclusionists. Ha ha LMFAO. Maybe you should read some more history before becoming a 'Breitbart expert' who want to spam the internet and demonstrate such ignorance.

Here - read this quote

"All of this might be of interest only to historians if Strom Thurmond's Republican Party had nothing in common with today's. But it does. When Newt Gingrich calls Obama a "food-stamp president," he is maintaining his party's post-1960s appeals to racism. "

From - http://www.thedai...acy.html

You are not the only one who can quote mine - and my quotes are not ahistorical.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 23, 2014
When Newt Gingrich calls Obama a "food-stamp president," he is maintaining his party's post-1960s appeals to racism.


Why is this racist? Obama has bee pushing to sign up anyone he can on food stamps.

"NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- More than one in seven Americans are on food stamps, but the federal government wants even more people to sign up for the safety net program.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture has been running radio ads for the past four months encouraging those eligible to enroll. The campaign is targeted at the elderly, working poor, the unemployed and Hispanics."
http://money.cnn....mps-ads/
Captain Stumpy
4 / 5 (8) Aug 23, 2014
The context of your braggadocio is concluded to give the impression you can find my residence.
@benni is a tard
then you are far more illiterate than I supposed. Try re-reading that again in context with everything
BETTER YET, why not provide the WHOLE conversation
BY ALL MEANS... show the WHOLE CONVERSATION IN CONTEXT benni! show everyone EVERYTHING.. or are you afraid of looking bad?

it's not like it isn't easy to find someone on the net... just ask ANYONE with ANY half-way ability... and that means it isn't a threat, moron, it is TRUTH
No, the "doorstep" rant is about your malicious mindset
I can see where you would be offended by someone requiring you to produce evidence of your conjecture.
YEP... that is TOTALLY malicious.
that bad ol' Captain making people actually PROVE something...
so flog me
or flog off

or, to coin a phrase from RC
DO BETTER
LOL
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 23, 2014
Bono discovered how to end poverty.

"Commerce is real. . . . Aid is just a stop-gap. Commerce, entrepreneurial capitalism takes more people out of poverty than aid. Of course, we know that.

Inquisitr.com reports how Bono followed up:

In dealing with poverty here and around the world, welfare and foreign aid are a Band-Aid. Free enterprise is a cure.

Entrepreneurship is the most sure way of development."
"Bono's organization targets poverty and disease in Africa, but Bono notes that the biggest killer in Africa is the things that allows these to perpetuate: political corruption. "
http://americanvi...italism/
strangedays
4 / 5 (8) Aug 23, 2014
ryggy
Why is this racist?


Because the number of people on food stamps increased more under Bush than it did under Obama. Did you hear Gingrich calling Bush 'the food stamp president?' No you did not - because just like you Ryggy - Gingrich is a member of the racist party.

And under Obama, the increase so far has been 14.2 million. To be exact, the program has so far grown by 444,574 fewer recipients during Obama's time in office than during Bush's.

http://www.factch...p-claim/

Keep dancing troll.
strangedays
4.4 / 5 (7) Aug 23, 2014
Ryggy
Bono discovered how to end poverty.


I agree with Bono - which is why I advocated above for the deployment of renewable energy programs that will bring economic activity to countries around the world.

Of course there is another side to Bono

"Bono, a long-time advocate for the poor, will argue that U.S. government-funded schemes that support life-saving treatments for HIV/AIDS sufferers, nutrition programs for malnourished children, and emergency food aid make up just 1 percent of the U.S. government budget but are helping to save tens of millions of lives in impoverished nations."

Which do you like Ryggy - the free market Bono - or the government intervention Bono? Or perhaps life is complex - and there could be room for both.

http://www.reuter...20121112

Boy what a one dimensional thinker you are.
mikep608
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 24, 2014
One bizzare thing is that there seem to be very few educated people who post on science pages. how is it that stupid people even readi them? many of them are idiots who have never been to university and are dumb enough to think they are smart because they've read every wikipedia page about physics, yet do not have the intelligence to be the slightest bit objective.
thermodynamics
4.6 / 5 (9) Aug 24, 2014
One bizzare thing is that there seem to be very few educated people who post on science pages. how is it that stupid people even readi them? many of them are idiots who have never been to university and are dumb enough to think they are smart because they've read every wikipedia page about physics, yet do not have the intelligence to be the slightest bit objective.


First, I agree with you. Second, I just want to be clear that even though I have been through a university (university of Illinois Urbana) major in physics, minors in math and chemical engineering and graduate work in ME (PE) I find a lot of value in Wikipedia. I just want to be sure that your issue is with those who don't value formal education. Not those who look for information in new forms.

For instance, I can use Google as well as Wolfram Alpha to get excellent papers and information. I can use Wikipedia. However, it is my responsibility to make sure they are right.
Toiea
1 / 5 (5) Aug 24, 2014
One bizzare thing is that there seem to be very few educated people who post on science pages.... yet do not have the intelligence to be the slightest bit objective
The smartness of people isn't a a warranty of their objectiveness, on the contrary, experts tend to be biased into their pet theories/philosophy (especially when their main motivation is just to to continue in their bellowed research - compare the 1, 2, 3).
Toiea
1 / 5 (5) Aug 24, 2014
For example here you can read an interview with quantum gravity physicist Carlo Rovelli, where he labels the opinions of Michio Kaku, Stephen Hawking, Lawrence Krauss and Neil deGrasse Tyson just plain silly. And just these guys are posting at science pages the most. So when the experts are biased in this way, what could you expect from laymen here?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 24, 2014
Why would you ever bother linking to garbage like Breitbart?

If a 'liberal' rag would have published the same date, you would have accepted it?

The data:

"Median Household Incomes after the Great Recession: Household Types and Educational Attainment"
http://www.adviso...rt-2.php
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 24, 2014
Did you hear Gingrich calling Bush 'the food stamp president?'

ANY criticism of BHO is because of race?
How racist of you!
It can't be about his narcissism? His incompetence? His unlawful actions?
I judge BHO on the content of his character, not his skin color, like you are.

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 24, 2014
AGWism hurts the poor:

"The Sacramento Bee reported that the non-partisan Legislative Analyst's Office calculated that the cap and trade surtax will tack on another 13 to 20 cents in cost for every a gallon of gasoline purchased in the state. "
http://www.breitb...-Auction
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 24, 2014
Racist GAO?

"The Pentagon broke the law when it swapped Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, a prisoner in Afghanistan for five years, for five Taliban leaders, congressional investigators said Thursday."
http://www.npr.or...ated-law
strangedays
4.8 / 5 (10) Aug 24, 2014
I judge BHO on the content of his character, not his skin color, like you are.


The critique was not mine - so stop being stupid. The critique said that when Gingrich called President Obama 'the food stamp president', Gingrich was actually calling up the old racist GOP tactics. I happen to agree with that critique. The support for that critique - was that at the time of the comment - the food stamp program had expanded more under President Bush, than under Obama - but of course Gingrich had not called Bush 'the food stamp president'. That is sound reasoning. Your attempt at excusing your own racism is transparent.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 24, 2014
That is sound reasoning.

No it is not. You are racist.
There are many other differences between Bush and Obama besides skin color. Why did you reject all those differences?
BTW, CNN agreed that BHO is pushing food stamps. Are they racist?
strangedays
4.4 / 5 (9) Aug 24, 2014
Why did you reject all those differences?


I did not reject any differences. The author of the critique (in my view correctly) asserted that Gingrich was resorting to the old GOP racist language - when calling President Obama 'the food stamp president' This is clearly a dog whistle - and it is not racist of the author of the article to point it out.

Your attempt at excusing your own racism is transparent.
Captain Stumpy
4.9 / 5 (7) Aug 24, 2014
If a 'liberal' rag would have published the same date, you would have accepted it?
@rygtard
I can't answer FOR Strange, but I can answer FOR ME...

NO!
NO RAG is a viable source of information unless you are compiling a database of quotes, and even then I would suggest you stick to the more reputable sources.

even a newspaper (like NYTIMES) is not a source of info regarding SCIENCE

-UNLESS it posts/publishes links/references to a peer reviewed study with empirical evidence from a reputable journal with an impact in the subject matter!

UNTIL it does that, it is NOT proof of anything other than quote mining or irrelevant linking

you know, like YOU do
Your attempt at excusing your own racism is transparent.
@Strange
that is how a pseudoscience TROLL works
give him the opportunity to post and they will link irrelevant unprovable conjecture from biased sources which are NOT science and claim it proof

and rygtard is the worst at that

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 24, 2014
old GOP racist language - when calling President Obama 'the food stamp president' This is clearly a dog whistle - and it is not racist of the author of the article to point it out.

Right.....

Racist 'liberals' need to see racism everywhere and when they can't see it they look for codes. Sounds just like AGWites that see CO2 and the problem for everything.

I provided a nice reference pointing out how 'liberals' hear 'dog whistles'.

" they actually believe that ethnic hatred is an important motivator for conservatives. Some even get frustrated that conservatives have gotten so clever about "coding" our racist messages, hiding them in subtle subtexts that liberal journalists can't easily expose "
http://thefederal...-racist/

Calling BHO the food stamp president is not racist just as calling BHO a socialist is not racist.
Except for racist 'liberals' who excuse BHO because of his race.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 24, 2014
"And so it goes with American racism: The less there is, the more extravagantly the racism-awareness lobby patrols its beat. The Walmart carding clerks of the media are ever more alert to those who "appear to be" racist. On MSNBC, Chris Matthews declared this week that Republicans use "Chicago" as a racist code word. Not to be outdone, his colleague Lawrence O'Donnell pronounced "golf" a racist code word. When Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell observed that Obama was "working to earn a spot on the PGA tour," O'Donnell brilliantly perceived that subliminally associating Obama with golf is racist, because the word "golf" is subliminally associated with "Tiger Woods,"..."
http://www.ocregi...dog.html
strangedays
4.6 / 5 (5) Aug 24, 2014
Calling BHO the food stamp president is not racist just as calling BHO a socialist is not racist.


I disagree - there is a very clear dog whistle in that kind of language. Many others understand the situation the same way. David Gregory called Gingrich on it - and Gingrich of course pleaded innocent to ever saying anything racist - which Salon points out is patently false.

http://www.salon....esident/

Keep dancing Ryggy.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 24, 2014
"On the matter of those racist dog whistles all these middle-age white liberals keep hearing, the Wall Street Journal's James Taranto put it very well: "The thing we adore about these dog-whistle kerfuffles is that the people who react to the whistle always assume it's intended for somebody else," he wrote. "The whole point of the metaphor is that if you can hear the whistle, you're the dog." And a very rare breed at that. What frequency does a Mitch McConnell speech have to be ringing inside your head for even the most racially obsessed Caucasian NBC anchorman to hear the words "PGA tour" as "deep-rooted white insecurities about black male sexuality"? That's way beyond dog-whistling, and somewhere between barking mad and frothing rabid."
http://www.ocregi...dog.html
This is the same Steyn being sued by Mann for slander.
Why is Mann so defensive?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 24, 2014
I disagree - there is a very clear dog whistle in that kind of language.

Prove it.

"Time's Mark Halperin wrote this week that "Obama can't win if he can't swing the conversation away from the economy." That's a pretty amazing admission. The economy is the No. 1 issue on the minds of voters, and, beyond that, the central reality of Obama's America. But to win the President has to steer clear. That doesn't leave a lot else. Hence, the racism of golf, the war on women, the carcinogenic properties of Mitt Romney. "
strangedays
4.7 / 5 (6) Aug 24, 2014
Prove it.


Can you prove that there is a soul? I am not interested in playing your childish games. The issue of Gingrich's racism has been discussed at length - you draw your own conclusions. It is enough for me that Gingrich used the term for Obama - and not for Bush - despite the fact that the program expanded more under Bush. You draw your own conclusions.

Keep dancing Ryggy.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 24, 2014
"CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER: Any time a real issue is brought up here, all of a sudden it's a silent dog whistle that only liberals hear. If Barack Obama had been white like say Bill Clinton, and he had done this, you would have the same attacks. Clinton's the guy who passed the law in the first place. Was that a dog whistle? Was he a racist?"
"What Clinton insisted on, what conservatives they are insisting on, and what Obama is overturning is the work first requirement. That's the heart of it."
http://newsbuster...was-clin
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 24, 2014
It is enough for me that Gingrich used the term for Obama

Not very scientific of you.
Lex Talonis
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 24, 2014
What would Jesus do? - as he orbits the earth in a vacuum without a space suit and oxygen, bathed in cosmic radiation for 2000 years...

I think he and his 12 boyfriends would tend to disagree about the fictional elements of this study.
strangedays
4.2 / 5 (5) Aug 24, 2014
Not very scientific of you.


We are not doing a science experiment are we? I am very comfortable with the reasoning presented on the issue - this is an issue where there is clearly disagreement - again - it is not a science experiment.

Keep dancing Ryggy.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 24, 2014
We are not doing a science experiment are we?

Yes, we are.

Dowd is now a racist by 'liberal' logic.

"far-left author Maureen Dowd catches up to a fact shouted by conservative media for years—that President Barack Obama cares more for his own leisure and entertainment than governing the nation or facing difficult issues."
http://www.breitb...-Golfing
Toiea
1 / 5 (4) Aug 24, 2014
Well, given the qualities of many world leaders it's rather prudent, when they don't interfere the internal or foreign affairs very much. Many people would be quite happy if for example Mr. Putin would spend his day with playing of golf too.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (5) Aug 24, 2014
when you do NOT have the ability to share linguistic verbiage and technical information which is widely available regarding a technical or scientific subject, it is very obvious to those who DO have the ability, as you so repeatedly like to point out regarding differential equations. my comment was pretty much saying to you: "you don't know squat about computers" and anyone who IS computer literate recognizes your illiteracy and inabilities
Ahaahaaaa this from the guy who leaked his name and address and relatives and picture in a thread not too long ago. As zephyr enjoys pointing out.
Toiea
1 / 5 (5) Aug 24, 2014
A solely off topic, but interesting statistics (unfortunately in Czech only) is presented here. It just illustrates a number of phone calls, which various world leaders had with Putin during this year. Now - the point is, for all these calls it was just Putin, who has been called - he NEVER did some phone call himself. He just takes the phone calls of others.
strangedays
4.3 / 5 (6) Aug 24, 2014
Yes, we are.


No we are not - we are discussing a speech made by Gingrich - that is not a scientific experiment - it is very much about opinion. He was called out by many for what were considered racists comments - and others defended him. So NO Ryggy - this is not a scientific experiment. As for your point about Dowd - it is stupid. No one said that if you criticize the president - you are a racist. What is being said is that using terms like 'food stamp president' is using dog whistle language. The food stamp program expanded more under Bush than it did under Obama - but no one called Bush the food stamp president. In my view - Gingrich was using dog whistle language - and many agree with me. There is no doubt that the GOP has a history of poor race relations - and has often used dog whistle language. How is this in any way a scientific experiment?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 24, 2014
No one said that if you criticize the president - you are a racist.

Yes, that is exactly what 'liberals' are saying.
the GOP has a history of poor race relations

Lincoln, the first Republican president, was assassinated by a racist.
GOP supported the Civil Rights Act.
"a full 80 percent of the Republican caucus supported it"
"61 percent of Democratic lawmakers voted for the bill "
"two-thirds of Senate Democrats supported the measure "
"an even stronger 82 percent of Republicans supported "
http://www.politi...lls-196/
How is this in any way a scientific experiment?

It demonstrates your irrational racism.
strangedays
4.4 / 5 (7) Aug 24, 2014
Yes, that is exactly what 'liberals' are saying.


No one on this board is saying that. YOU were saying that Maureen Dowd must be a racist because she criticized the President. I have never implied that simply criticizing the president equals racism. That is stupid of you to raise the issue. I was very clear - over and over - that calling the President the 'food stamp president' is what was using dog whistle language. The fact that Gingrich never used that term for Bush - who expanded food stamps more than Obama - reinforces the understanding of the dog whistle racism.
strangedays
5 / 5 (10) Aug 24, 2014
It demonstrates your irrational racism


Just grow up Ryggy - just grow up. You throw around a racist term like 'turd world country'. You bring up the issue of race over and over - when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Others call you on your hateful tactics - and now you turn around calling others racist.

Just grow up.
James Love
1 / 5 (6) Aug 24, 2014
I am not a climate change denier, wanted to point out an irony to Mr. Brown. You chastise some of the religious for being uneducated about science, which is a valid point, then go on to make equally ignorant comments about Christian theology and its relationship to science. you even propagate the Galileo Myth when its been discredited for some time. This is my only comment on this forum, and I don't mean to be too harsh since I do desire you to become more educated about the relationship of Christianity and Science. I also understand how stereotypes about Christianity and science develop given how frustratingly resistant some of my co-coreligionists can be. For those who sincerely seek truth and reasoned inquiry, I'd direct you to the following links. The second is regarding the Galileo Myth and the first is a google search for "science religion" of the firstthings.com site. There are good minds there.

http://tinyurl.com/mjqktnv http://tinyurl.com/orktnd2
NOM
4.3 / 5 (6) Aug 24, 2014
Here are some examples of Rygtard using troll behaviour on this thread:

Accusations of cover-ups:
While the AGWite professionals are employed by the govt and are able to use the power of the state to plunder and coerce, aka 'progressivism'.


Misquoting experts:
The theoretical physicist Richard Feynman once quipped that "the first principle" of science is "that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.


Broken logic:
AGW = progressive
progressive = racist
... actually, nearly everything he posts is an example of broken logic

The Galileo Gambit
I don't think he has pulled this one on this thread yet. Though his whole "racist" attack is getting pretty close.

Rygtard is a textbook troll. So do we nail him down as a classic example, or vivisect him to see why his brain is so messed up?
Urgelt
5 / 5 (8) Aug 25, 2014
Michael Brown, Phys.org's comment section is infested with cranks and trolls. How long, exactly, did it take before 'cold fusion' popped up? About ninety seconds?

Gotta love the profusion of straw man arguments and broken logic.

Funny, the way cranks and trolls thrive on a site attempting to promote, report on and teach actual science.

Science is having a real hard time reaching out to the public, which is largely (not quite entirely) hostile to the whole thing.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (6) Aug 25, 2014
Ahaahaaaa this from the guy who leaked his name and address and relatives and picture in a thread not too long ago. As zephyr enjoys pointing out.
@otto
and you learned nothing that wasn't already public knowledge and available with a half-assed search anyway.
it's not like I've ever tried to hide who I was

nothing to hide and i am not afraid of trolls

no TROLL from here has what it takes to visit my place
Captain Stumpy
4.4 / 5 (7) Aug 25, 2014
I do desire you to become more educated about the relationship of Christianity and Science
@James Love
there is no relationship. there is no place in science for religion other than to study as a social/cultural construct used for controlling people
For those who sincerely seek truth and reasoned inquiry
RELIGION is about a set of dogmatic rules for controlling people of a certain FAITH... and FAITH is the belief in something WITHOUT PROOF

SCIENCE is the search for knowledge based upon the scientific method, which requires empirical data, repeatable experiments and proven predictions, etc...

there is NO proof in a faith, which is the basis of a religion
there can be NO SCIENCE without proof/empirical evidence

there is a huge difference between the two. so for those "who sincerely seek truth and reasoned inquiry" there can be ONLY SCIENCE as a faith would require the suspension of logic, reason and proof
johanfprins
1 / 5 (7) Aug 25, 2014
And yet when non-experts discuss science, such flawed logic is often employed.


Guess who stated:
"you are not reasoning but is only being logical"?
"If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you do not understand it"
"Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real".

Is the latter not flawed logic? Yes it is not just flawed but INSANE logic! And it was uttered by Niels Bohr, who is considered to be THE EXPERT on the interpretation of quantum mechanics: He is obviously believed by the "mainstream experts" since he "he does not understand quantum mechanics"

What amazes me is that mainstream physicists who embrace this absurd logic, are arrogant enough to call other people trolls! The worst trolls I have experienced on the internet have been the self-appointed, so-called "mainstream experts".
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Aug 25, 2014
Accusations of cover-ups:

Documentation of AGW cover-ups are readily available.
AGWites and the 'progressive' movement intersect. AGWites chose to use a world govt agency to push their 'science'.
'Progressives'/'liberals' are racists by first promoting and defending institutional racism, Affirmative Action, and by the actions of 'progressives' like Obama and his fellow travelers fanning racial hatred flames.
I will pull the Galileo thread to say he was not an example of an anti-science Church. Also, Galileo is a fine example of how one individual observation can overturn centuries of 'consensus'.
no TROLL from here has what it takes to visit my place

You fear to post your Lat/Long. How can one visit?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 25, 2014

"Marohasy has analysed the physical temperature records from more than 30 stations included in the BoM set that determines the official national temperature record.

And she remains disturbed by a pattern whereby homogenisation exaggerates, or even produces, a record of steady warming against a steady or cooling trend in the raw data.

Marohasy says the clearly ­stated intent of homogenisation is to correct for changes in equipment, siting, and/or other factors that conceivably can introduce non-­climatic factors into the temperature record.

"The bureau, however, is applying the algorithms subjectively and without supporting metadata, in such a way that the temperature record is completely altered, despite the absence of evidence that there were any changes in siting, equipment, or any other factor which could have conceivably introduced a non­-climatic discontinuity,'' she says."
http://www.thegwp...re-recor
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (6) Aug 25, 2014
Ahaahaaaa this from the guy who leaked his name and address and relatives and picture in a thread not too long ago. As zephyr enjoys pointing out.
@otto
and you learned nothing that wasn't already public knowledge and available with a half-assed search anyway.
it's not like I've ever tried to hide who I was

nothing to hide and i am not afraid of trolls

no TROLL from here has what it takes to visit my place
-In OTHER words you MEANT to do IT.
Ahaahaaahaaa
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 25, 2014
The welfare party (which include 'food stamps'):
"Perhaps this is because this administration and many Democrats in Congress, including Rep. Nancy Pelosi, have told Americans that welfare benefits are a stimulus to the economy (sic). Apparently, the left believes that if every family were on food stamps, the economy would return to its glory days."
"Putting all these programs together, a family can get a package of benefits equivalent to a $35,000 a year job in 11 states, and in Hawaii the benefits can exceed what a $60,000 a year job would offer, according to a Cato Institute analysis."

The feds have also created outreach programs — including radio and TV ads in multiple languages — to encourage people to sign up for the dole because, as one ad put it, this "helps the local community.""

http://news.inves....htm?p=2

TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (4) Aug 25, 2014
The feds have also created outreach programs — including radio and TV ads in multiple languages — to encourage people to sign up for the dole because, as one ad put it, this "helps the local community."
Forbes quote of the day:
"Surplus wealth is a sacred trust which its possessor is bound to administer in his lifetime for the good of the community." Andrew carnegie

-Of course he didn't mean just giving it to them did he ryggy? No, they had to earn it just like everybody else.
supamark23
4.3 / 5 (6) Aug 25, 2014
"CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER: Any time a real issue is brought up here, all of a sudden it's a silent dog whistle that only liberals hear. If Barack Obama had been white like say Bill Clinton, and he had done this, you would have the same attacks. Clinton's the guy who passed the law in the first place. Was that a dog whistle? Was he a racist?"
"What Clinton insisted on, what conservatives they are insisting on, and what Obama is overturning is the work first requirement. That's the heart of it."
http://newsbuster...was-clin


krauthammer is a worthless lying piece of shit, just like you - no wonder you quote him.
Dug
1 / 5 (6) Aug 25, 2014
How this article on the topic of "Trolls" - that it's level journalistic incompetence doesn't even define for the purposes of its treatise - found a place in Phys.org says more about Phys.org, its lack of editorial focus, editorial incompetence and its pursuit target market of pop-science social media - than it does about anything related to science communications - or really anything of consequence.
NOM
4.3 / 5 (6) Aug 25, 2014
@Captain Stumpy
no TROLL from here has what it takes to visit my place
All it would take to stop most of them is a decent set of stairs, as most of them are geriatrics.
NOM
5 / 5 (8) Aug 25, 2014
Guess who stated:
"you are not reasoning but is only being logical"?
"If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you do not understand it"
"Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real".

Is the latter not flawed logic? Yes it is not just flawed but INSANE logic! And it was uttered by Niels Bohr, who is considered to be THE EXPERT on the interpretation of quantum mechanics: He is obviously believed by the "mainstream experts" since he "he does not understand quantum mechanics"


Well done johan, an excelent example of both misquoting experts and "broken logic
Toiea
1 / 5 (7) Aug 25, 2014
How long, exactly, did it take before 'cold fusion' popped up? About ninety seconds?... Science is having a real hard time reaching out to the public, which is largely (not quite entirely) hostile to the whole thing.
How can you be so sure, that the cold fusion isn't working and that the mainstream physics just doesn't ignore it intentionally? We have thousands of evidences of the opposite already. Currently the mainstream physics is so demoralized, it even dismisses the third replication of EMDrive - despite it brings the evidence of quantum gravity phenomena, for research of which the same physicists otherwise spend billions of dollars. The scientists just dismiss every progress, which isn't predicted and planned with them. Is it something, for which they should be admired with layman public? Who is trolling who here?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Aug 25, 2014
krauthammer is a worthless lying piece of shit, j

What a temper!
But, typical when a 'liberal' has no rational reply to the truth.

Not much respect for someone who earned a MD, while paralyzed, at Harvard.
Krauthammer is quite qualified to discuss 'liberal' dog whistles as he was trained as a psychiatrist.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (5) Aug 25, 2014
@Captain Stumpy
no TROLL from here has what it takes to visit my place
All it would take to stop most of them is a decent set of stairs, as most of them are geriatrics.
So's stumpy. You should check out the pics he so graciously provided.
How can you be so sure, that the cold fusion isn't working and that the mainstream physics just doesn't ignore it intentionally? We have thousands of evidences of the opposite already
All we need is one, and rossi is allegedly getting ready to open it up to the public. Which Im sure you know.
http://www.e-catw...etitive/

-As to em motors thats just hooey.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (5) Aug 25, 2014
@Captain Stumpy
no TROLL from here has what it takes to visit my place
All it would take to stop most of them is a decent set of stairs, as most of them are geriatrics.
I believe it would play out something like this
https://www.youtu...82zEedWw

-The hip break is at 0:39
Toiea
1 / 5 (5) Aug 25, 2014
List of papers, which triumphed over their rejection The original publication of Higgs mechanism belongs into them. It's nice to read the trolling remarks of their editors.
strangedays
4.4 / 5 (7) Aug 25, 2014
Otto -
All we need is one, and rossi is allegedly getting ready to open it up to the public. Which Im sure you know.


Now Otto - you promised us over a year ago that Rossi would be revealing the secret sauce in just a few months.

That's OK - November is coming up fast - and then we will have the secret sauce from Dr. Mills - I can't wait...

Boy will I have egg on my face if he really does come through...
Aligo
1 / 5 (6) Aug 25, 2014
Boy will I have egg on my face if he really does come through...
It will apply to all voters here, as no remark about cold fusion got positive voting in average. 1/5 just means, everyone of you downvotes the cold fusion finding here systematically. From some strange reason, no one of you is interested about energetic future of our civilization. The perspective of nuclear war between Russia an USA or between Japan and China is probably more entertaining for people here.
Aligo
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 25, 2014
"Scientists today think deeply rather than clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane. Todays scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander through equation after equation, and eventually build a
structure which has no basis in reality." – Nikola Tesla, 1932.

I think, he would be surprised today with progress, which physicists made in this direction.
NOM
4.4 / 5 (7) Aug 25, 2014
@Aligo
There won't be anyone here (except trolls like rygtard, but they never counted anyway) who wouldn't be happy to admit they were wrong. Provided there was some scientifically verified proof.
The same goes for AWT, ESP, god, aliens, Elvis, or even AGW being false.

That's how science works. It takes proof. Real, verifyable, repeatable proof.

But sadly, show the proof and there will be trolls that say it's a coverup, misquote experts, use broken logic and use the Galileo Gambit to deny this proof.
Aligo
1 / 5 (7) Aug 25, 2014
Provided there was some scientifically verified proof.
This smells with circular reasoning. The scientists shouldn't define by itself, what is scientific or what isn't. They should only accept the logical proof without any socially or politically biased adjectives. If their methods are wrong, as Tesla noted, then these methods will indeed contradict even the evidence of their incorrectness. It's not just about wrong usage of math at the place of logical proof, but about misuse of statistics methods, and so on. Even their idea, that the progress in science is made with verification of hypothesis may be wrong, as it doesn't apply to most of accidental findings.
NOM
4.4 / 5 (7) Aug 25, 2014
Tesla, the patron saint of cranks
Aligo
1 / 5 (8) Aug 25, 2014
The scalar wave physics of Nicola Tesla is orthogonal / singular to physics of transverse waves. The contemporary physicists all based their theories on transverse model spreading and none of their theories is mathematically compatible/consistent with concept of scalar waves. For example, the scalar waves always violate the Lorentz symmetry, they never propagate with speed of light, but faster, they're absorbed/reflected the more, the less light waves are absorbed/reflected, etc. It's like to convince the bat, he should use the space intervals instead of time intervals for his navigation. It would be a true negation of its whole previous life and life experience.
NOM
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 25, 2014
I rest my case.
thermodynamics
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 25, 2014
Aligo said:
Boy will I have egg on my face if he really does come through...
It will apply to all voters here, as no remark about cold fusion got positive voting in average. 1/5 just means, everyone of you downvotes the cold fusion finding here systematically. From some strange reason, no one of you is interested about energetic future of our civilization. The perspective of nuclear war between Russia an USA or between Japan and China is probably more entertaining for people here.


Just to be consistent with my down voting of cold fusion, EU, AWT, and other unsuported pseudoscience, I also down vote Magic.
Michael Brown
5 / 5 (7) Aug 26, 2014
you even propagate the Galileo Myth when its been discredited for some time.


No. The relevant documentation from the 17th century shows that interpretation of the bible was central to Galileo's prosecution. Galileo's confrontational style didn't help, but wasn't the main reason for his prosecution by the 17th century Catholic Church. Galileo had a number of pieces of evidence for the heliocentric model during the 1610s, including retrograde motion and the phases of Venus.

A number of books provide translations of the relevant 17th century documents (e.g., The Essential Galileo). A useful introduction is also available from the Vatican Observatory http://vaticanobs...o-affair
antialias_physorg
4.6 / 5 (11) Aug 26, 2014
What I learned from debating science with trolls:

Post an article about it and get handed enough reserach material for 5 more.

Well played, sir. Well played.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Aug 26, 2014
some scientifically verified proof.

Science is best at disproving, not proving.
Jixo
1 / 5 (7) Aug 26, 2014
cold fusion, EU, AWT, and other unsuported pseudoscience
The point is, the things like the cold fusion, EMDrive or antigravity beams are already supported with rather wide group of physicists. Now the question is, what makes these things less relevant, than for example string theory of LQG theory, which are supported with limited group of scientists too. What makes the cold fusion or EMDrive a pseudoscience and LQG science in your eyes? The string or LQG are abstract theories only and their experimental evidence was negative so far (1, 2, 3). We simply have multiple theories or phenomena, which were confirmed experimentally and which you don't consider a science and we have multiple theories, which were disproved with experiments, and which you're consider a science.
antialias_physorg
4.4 / 5 (9) Aug 26, 2014
The point is, the things like the cold fusion, EMDrive or antigravity beams are already supported with rather wide group of physicists.

Well, Zeph: Supported by someone is not the same as supported by evidence. The latter trumps the former. And currently no one has a working demonstrator open for peer review for any of these.

LQG is a theory (among several). They don't claim it to be true or proven. The people working on it are in the stage of trying to figure out how it might be tested. That's the scientific method.

The other crew that is pushing the pseudoscience crap are saying that it IS true anmd has already been tested (without anyone having a workable demonstrator)

The distinction between science and pseudoscience is quite easy.
You just have to map it onto snake-oil salesman.
Does someone make an unsupported claim that something is proven? Pseudoscience.
Does someone put forth a hypothesis and a way it may be tested? Science.
Jixo
1 / 5 (8) Aug 26, 2014
Please note that most of things, which you don't believe were already repeatedly confirmed experimentally (cold fusion, EMdrive, antigravity beams) and most of things which you believe, despite they weren't confirmed experimentally are abstract theories.

Is the physics experimental science or theoretical science? We are talking about definition of crackpots in contemporary science. The existing rules say clearly, that the people who believe in abstract stuffs contradicting experiments are crackpots not the people, who believe in repeatedly confirmed experimental stuffs.
Jixo
1 / 5 (8) Aug 26, 2014
Supported by someone is not the same as supported by evidence
Evidence is always provided with some. At the case, when some finding gets confirmed with three or more people or research groups (EMDrive: H. White from NASA, J. Yang, Shawyer, Fetta), then I consider it confirmed. I consider unconfirmed all claims, implying the opposite instead.
trying to figure out how it might be tested. That's the scientific method
Nope, the ignorance of negative results and "trying to figure" the positive ones is not a scientific method. Which is also why the mainstream theories fail one after another (string theory, LQG, WIMPs, gravitational waves). It's an apparent result of mistakes in scientific methodology. The scientific methodology works, but the physicists are evading it.
Jixo
1 / 5 (7) Aug 26, 2014
Actually the whole problem is very simple if not trivial and analogous to situation with epicycle theory before many years. The people tend to violate the rules of scientific work, once they get an occupational perspective from it. The Holy Church supported the heliocentric model in Galileo times, but the various astronomers made a nice money for horoscopes with epicycles model. So that they adhered on it a long time after this model has been already disproved with observations. And the mainstream theorists aren't different in this matter. And I can even accept this motivation, but I cannot tolerate the situation, when these apparent crackpots call the other honest people crackpots instead. The rules of scientific work are the same for everyone.
antialias_physorg
4.2 / 5 (10) Aug 26, 2014
most of things which you believe, despite they weren't confirmed experimentally are abstract theories.

Such as?
Some things make good predictions and those predictions have been verified. Those things are useful (until a better theory comes along...which may or may not change the usefulness of the former theory. Newtonian gravity theory is still pretty useful in many areas even though it has been supplanted by Einsteinian gravity).
There is no 'belief' in abstract stuff like LQG. It's just one interesting avenue of research because it is internally consistent and will be testable. If it fails it will be discarded. So what? Cold fusion was 'mainstream' for a while. It failed and got discarded. Happens all the time in science.

repeatedly confirmed experimentally (cold fusion, EMdrive, antigravity beams)

Funny how no demonstrators exist, though, isn't it? The claim of "repeatedly confirmed" isn't quite true. To be exact: it's completely false.
Whydening Gyre
3.4 / 5 (5) Aug 26, 2014
you even propagate the Galileo Myth when its been discredited for some time.


No. The relevant documentation from the 17th century shows that interpretation of the bible was central to Galileo's prosecution. Galileo's confrontational style didn't help, but wasn't the main reason for his prosecution by the 17th century Catholic Church. Galileo had a number of pieces of evidence for the heliocentric model during the 1610s, including retrograde motion and the phases of Venus.

A number of books provide translations of the relevant 17th century documents (e.g., The Essential Galileo). A useful introduction is also available from the Vatican Observatory http://vaticanobs...o-affair

Anybody see The Schneib's version of this in another thread? About the unfortunate use of certain names in his writings that pissed off the pope...
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (7) Aug 26, 2014
you promised us over a year ago that Rossi would be revealing the secret
I did no such thing sir or madam. I am not in the habit of promising things that others can't deliver. As far as the ecat and the hydrino are concerned (and the proper use of the term 'weight') I've only presented evidence provided by others.
There won't be anyone here (except trolls like rygtard, but they never counted anyway) who wouldn't be happy to admit they were wrong. Provided there was some scientifically verified proof
There will be those who will continue to deny the evidence until these things are in every basement and Beemer in dusseldorf. But by then they'll be dead won't they? Case in point:
Supported by someone is not the same as supported by evidence. The latter trumps the former. And currently no one has a working demonstrator open for peer review for any of these
There have been plenty of papers, demos, and reviews to temper judgement. This gentleman refuses to look at them.
Jixo
1.4 / 5 (9) Aug 26, 2014
Funny how no demonstrators exist, though, isn't it?
The demonstrators are four already, funny rather is, how no one of them (with weak exception of Chinese) don't belong into community of mainstream physicists. But it's logical - most of Galielo opponents mainstream astronomers didn't bother to look through Galieo telescope for his evidence and many of them even openly dismissed this opportunity. So that this replication disparity can actually serve as another evidence of mainstream physics crackpotism.

Actually the above criterion works so well, than we can even judge quite reliably the attitude of mainstream science community from delay, which follows the replications of accidental findings in mainstream journals. This attitude (both positive, both negative) can be exactly measured with it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.3 / 5 (7) Aug 26, 2014
So what? Cold fusion was 'mainstream' for a while. It failed and got discarded. Happens all the time in science
Cold fusion was never mainstream.?Two respected researchers produced some interesting data and were universally panned by the mainstream. But institutions like the navy, DARPA, and MIT continued research and got results.

And just at the time when we might need decentralized power and new energy sources that can power tech like VASIMR and robotics, these alternatives suddenly show promise again. And they ARE showing promise which is obvious to those who are not too afraid or too self-absorbed to look.

'There is a proper Time for everything under the sun.' No tech before it's Time. The People who run this world are not stupid you know.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 26, 2014
The official political corruption of science:

"The National Science Foundation is financing the creation of a web service that will monitor "suspicious memes" and what it considers "false and misleading ideas," with a major focus on political activity online."
http://freebeacon...twitter/
antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (10) Aug 26, 2014
I did no such thing sir or madam.

Yeah - you just link to the sites that make the claims and voice agreement. Much better, that.

Cold fusion was never mainstream.?

If it gets funding it's mainstream. It got quite well funded for a number of years because it was rather interesting/promising at the time. Didn't work out. End of story. Next.

And just at the time when we might need decentralized power and new energy sources that can power tech like VASIMR and robotics

What has the need to do with whether a tech is real or not? We need fiary dust, too. Doesn't mnake it any more real.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 26, 2014
The official political corruption of science:

"The National Science Foundation is financing the creation of a web service that will monitor "suspicious memes" and what it considers "false and misleading ideas," with a major focus on political activity online."
http://freebeacon...twitter/


""Truthy" claims to be non-partisan. However, the project's lead investigator Filippo Menczer proclaims his support for numerous progressive advocacy groups, including President Barack Obama's Organizing for Action, Moveon.org, Greenpeace, the Sierra Club, Amnesty International, and True Majority."
Jixo
1.5 / 5 (8) Aug 26, 2014
If it gets funding it's mainstream.
And if it's mainstream, then it's accepted. So we can simply judge, what's correct or not in contemporary physics simply by volume of money dedicated for its research. This is really interesting interpretation of scientific method, by which such a judging depends on the results of experiments only.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (6) Aug 26, 2014
you just link to the sites that make the claims and voice agreement
And whats wrong with that? Very interesting developments of late. I think the readership ought to know.
If it gets funding it's mainstream
?? You regard this as mainstream?

"Remote viewing was popularized in the 1990s upon the declassification of certain documents related to the Stargate Project, a $20 million research program that had started in 1975 and was sponsored by the U.S. government, in an attempt to determine any potential military application of psychic phenomena. The program was terminated in 1995 after it failed to produce any useful intelligence information..."
What has the need to do with whether a tech is real or not?
Disruptive tech has the potential to affect national security will not be allowed to proliferate. This is he reason for agencies such as:

"The Disruptive Technology Office (DTO) was a funding agency within the United States Intelligence Community."
Captain Stumpy
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 26, 2014
And if it's mainstream, then it's accepted.
@jixo/zephir
nope.
if it is proven with empirical data and repeated experimentation and then VERIFIED by a second party experimentation producing the same results before it can be "accepted"

BIG DIFFERENCE
So we can simply judge, what's correct or not in contemporary physics simply by volume of money dedicated for its research
fallacy and not logical, this is YOUR PERSONAL opinion and not supported by FACTS
This is really interesting interpretation of scientific method
again, YOUR PERSONAL OPINION based upon conspiracy and fallacious arguments

antialias_physorg
4.6 / 5 (10) Aug 26, 2014
And if it's mainstream, then it's accepted.

No. That doesn't follow. Even things that get funded need to show that they pan out. There are several (mutually exclusive) theories out there in a number of fields. That they get all researched doesn't mean they all will be accepted.
Current knowledge isn't complete (far from it), so there is plenty of room for internally consistent - yet competing - theories.

Disruptive tech has the potential to affect national security will not be allowed to proliferate.

The US doesn't control world research. If the US government wants to keep its citizen under control then that's their business. US citizens seem quite happy with this approach.
However, until the US enacts a travel ban on researchers their chance of actually pull this off - even on domestic science endeavours - is nil.
Aligo
1 / 5 (7) Aug 26, 2014
if it is proven with empirical data and repeated experimentation and then VERIFIED
Which always is, at the moment, when such a finding would provide another jobs, grants and business for physicists involved. For example the practically quite insignificant method of preparation of graphene (the existence of which has been predicted before many years) was replicated with thousands of labs in a few months and in six years Novoselov got a Nobel prize for it. After ten years we still have no commercial application of graphene, BTW. Whereas the extremely useful and immediately exploitable finding of cold fusion at nickel wasn't even attempted to replicate in any mainstream journal during last twenty two years. The difference in attitude and dynamic of progress is quite apparent here.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Aug 26, 2014
The US doesn't control world research. If the US government wants to keep its citizen under control then that's their business. US citizens seem quite happy with this approach.
However, until the US enacts a travel ban on researchers their chance of actually pull this off - even on domestic science endeavours - is nil
You are naive on 2 counts. 1) You think that the US is the only authority that would be concerned with national security and 2) you dont think that these authorities would want to cooperate in supporting what would benefit them and suppressing what would endanger them.

The academic community is an international community. The economic community is an international community. Funding will not be provided for the development of tech which would endanger global economic stability. Nothing is going to be allowed to cause this civilization to collapse.

The superpowers were created specifically to control the development of dangerous tech - nukes for one.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (6) Aug 26, 2014
Remember jules verne? He described very graphically and in a very timely fashion what could happen if tech like subs and airpower were allowed to develop by itself, independently, and beyond the control of the ruling powers. Nemo would have used it to bring the world to its knees.

We could use our imagination to speculate what might have happened if celestial navigation and related tech had been used to establish independent trade with the mesoamerican civilizations; and we might then speculate that this tech was suppressed by the church during the middle ages until the tech needed to destroy these civilizations was developed.
Michael Brown
5 / 5 (7) Aug 26, 2014
Anybody see The Schneib's version of this in another thread? About the unfortunate use of certain names in his writings that pissed off the pope...


"Simplicio" definitely didn't help Galileo's cause, but that character was invented for "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems" which was published well after Galileo's first trial.

A entertaining introduction to the Galileo affair is online at
http://www.newyor...moon-man
Aligo
1 / 5 (7) Aug 26, 2014
Funding will not be provided for the development of tech which would endanger global economic stability
In particular, the power of central governments depends on control of centralized energy production. But as everything in AWT, this effort has two sides and it can bring the world into chaos and nuclear war due to energetic crisis. As the fossil fuel crisis continues, the geopolitical world becomes gradually less and less stable.
strangedays
4.7 / 5 (9) Aug 26, 2014
Otto -
I did no such thing sir or madam. I am not in the habit of promising things that others can't deliver. As far as the ecat and the hydrino are concerned (and the proper use of the term 'weight') I've only presented evidence provided by others.


Oh you did too Otto. There was a big discussion on the e-cat - it was a year ago in April I think - and you said something like 'we will know within 2 or 3 months for sure if Rossi has something or not.

What is the projected date now on being able to buy an e-cat?

That is OK though. We are on to Mill's hydrinos - and we will know by November. I am waiting with great anticipation.....
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 27, 2014
"Food stamp enrollments have soared due to President Barack Obama's categorical eligibility provisions, aggressive enrollment marketing, a bleak economy, and intense lobbying by large corporations who bag millions of taxpayer dollars as food stamp enrollments climb. Indeed, a report by the Government Accountability Institute (GAI) found that JP Morgan bagged well over half a billion dollars ($560,492,596) since 2004 processing the Electronic Benefits Transfer (EBT) cards of 18 of the 24 states it holds contracts with.

Still, despite historic levels of Americans now dependent on welfare, and with the middle class poorer now than it was in 1984, Obama continues to claim that his economic policies have made things better. "
http://www.breitb...In-a-Row
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (6) Aug 27, 2014
Oh you did too Otto. There was a big discussion on the e-cat - it was a year ago in April I think - and you said something like 'we will know within 2 or 3 months for sure if Rossi has something or not
Uh no I didn't although I can understand that's what you THINK I said. You people assume I support these guys because I object to your baseless and uninformed criticism, which isn't true.

For instance you can't claim that they can't answer questions they've already answered, whether their answers are valid or not. You've got to review their answers and address them. And no I'm not going to copy/paste them here for you. Why should I?
What is the projected date now on being able to buy an e-cat?
Im sure it's on his website somewhere. You can also check this site for info
http://www.e-catworld.com
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 27, 2014
I want the most robust science to inform policy.

"Science advisers are ultimately creatures of politics. They serve at the pleasure of politicians. As part of government they are responsible for supporting policy implementation, just like any political appointee or civil servant. By virtue of their position, they do not have free rein to opine."
"In theory, advisory bodies that sit further from government, like the National Research Council and the Royal Society, could play a role as a fair-minded arbiter of scientific questions, or even as honest brokers of policy options. But in recent years, such bodies have too often chosen to participate as advocates in political debates, seeking to throw the weight of their authority behind one side or another."
http://www.thegua...-brokers

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 27, 2014
"That's what makes scientific study so powerful. We make assumptions based upon the evidence we have, and develop theories to describe the universe around us. But we also keep testing our assumptions. We keep working to develop better theories. We always, always keep in mind that our assumptions might just be wrong.
{EXCEPT for AGW, of course}
And when we find they are — even if it's just a single piece of evidence that points the way — whole new fields of research can open up."
https://medium.co...361f89fc

johanfprins
1 / 5 (9) Aug 28, 2014
`And when we find they are — even if it's just a single piece of evidence that points the way — whole new fields of research can open up."
This is the way it should be, but the 20th century changed this essential ingredient. At present such a new piece of evidence is mathematically fudged away in order to cling to the wrong model. This is called "renormalisation" and you can even win a Nobel Prize if your fudging is considered to be beautiful!

thermodynamics
4.1 / 5 (9) Aug 28, 2014
`And when we find they are even if it's just a single piece of evidence that points the way whole new fields of research can open up." This is the way it should be, but the 20th century changed this essential ingredient. At present such a new piece of evidence is mathematically fudged away in order to cling to the wrong model. This is called "renormalisation" and you can even win a Nobel Prize if your fudging is considered to be beautiful!


So, you are equating "fudging" with "renormalization." Can you please provide a peer reviewed paper that says that renormalization is the same as fudging?

Since we don't understand quantum space-time we are constrained to making sense out of infinities. Renormalization allows us to do that. Just because you don't understand it does not make it wrong. In the future it might be replaced with a more complete approach, but in the mean time, it allows us to make meaningful and experimentally verified calculations in both QM and QCD.
Jixo
1 / 5 (7) Aug 28, 2014
Can you please provide a peer reviewed paper that says that renormalization is the same as fudging?
The mainstream theorists will never admit, they're wasting the money of tax payers in search of Philosophers stone. After all, why they should do it? From their perspective such a behavior would have absolutely no meaning and/or utility. So why do you ask such a silly questions?
Jixo
1 / 5 (7) Aug 28, 2014
Since we don't understand quantum space-time we are constrained to making sense out of infinities
Mainstream physicists already have full tools for its understanding in the same way, like me. They've a good reason to ignore such an understanding - such an understanding would render their effort as futile - so it's ignorance enables them to prolong their research in the same way, like the ignorance of cold fusion. This is their opened strategy, after all. I don't need to speculate about it - I've evidence for it printed in mainstream peer-reviewed journal.
Jixo
1 / 5 (7) Aug 28, 2014
Can you please provide a peer reviewed paper that says that renormalization is the same as fudging
?

The mainstream theorists will never admit, they're wasting the money of tax payers in search of Philosophers stone. After all, why they should do it? From their perspective such an attitude would have absolutely no meaning, utility the less. So why do you ask such a silly questions?
johanfprins
1 / 5 (8) Aug 28, 2014
So, you are equating "fudging" with "renormalization."
Can you please you please supply a manuscript recommended by a priest that claims that Jesus never lived! Are you really SOOOO stupid to think that reviewers will pass such a manuscript to be published, no matter how solid the logic is? NEVER!!! See for example http://www.cgoakley.org/qft/

Since we don't understand quantum space-time we are constrained to making sense out of infinities.
ONLY a certifiable idiot will try and make "sense" out of infinites. When you strike infinities it is mathematics telling you that your theory and/or model is WRONG!!! This has always been the case.
Renormalization allows us to do that. Just because you don't understand it does not make it wrong.
You just stated that YOU also do not understand it: In fact, nobody with a sane mind will even contemplate to follow this absurd route!
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.6 / 5 (7) Aug 28, 2014
So, you are equating "fudging" with "renormalization." Can you please provide a peer reviewed paper that says that renormalization is the same as fudging?
Actually if you google the 2 words you see that they are used together frequently by academics, as in 'renormalization (fudging)'. I think I even saw a few papers in there.
Priest manuscript Jesus bogus
Many theologians have come to this conclusion.

"Hot on the heels of the Father Flannery affair (silenced for denying the priesthood) comes the next strange story involving an Irish priest. Now it's the turn of Fr Thomas Brodie, who has taken unorthodoxy a step further by suggesting that Jesus never existed, and has resigned as director of the Dominican Biblical Institute in Limerick, which he helped set up. Whether voluntarily or otherwise, isn't clear."
johanfprins
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 28, 2014
So, you are equating "fudging" with "renormalization." Can you please provide a peer reviewed paper that says that renormalization is the same as fudging?
Actually if you google the 2 words you see that they are used together frequently by academics, as in 'renormalization (fudging)'. I think I even saw a few papers in there.
Priest manuscript Jesus bogus
Many theologians have come to this conclusion.

And the church's publications allowed them to publish this after peer review?? He asked for a peer reviewed manuscript, not whether such people exist!
johanfprins
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 28, 2014
So, you are equating "fudging" with "renormalization." Can you please provide a peer reviewed paper that says that renormalization is the same as fudging?
Actually if you google the 2 words you see that they are used together frequently by academics, as in 'renormalization (fudging)'. I think I even saw a few papers in there.
Priest manuscript Jesus bogus
Many theologians have come to this conclusion
.

And the church's journals allowed them to publish this after peer review?? He asked for a peer reviewed manuscript, not whether such people exist!
Jixo
1.4 / 5 (10) Aug 28, 2014
The renormalization procedure doesn't differ from pure average at the case of singular solutions. For example the value of cosmological constant obtained from renormalization in string theory still differs by sixty orders of magnitude from the values of predicted with quantum field theory and general relativity. How is it possible? Well, these predictions differ by one hundred and twenty orders each other. What the mainstream physicists refuse to realize, that the space-times described with two theories are connected mutually like the branches of Alexander horned sphere. Their connection represents the richness of observable reality at the human observer scale. They can be never predicted with analytical math, with using of naive four-dimensional theories the less.
NOM
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 28, 2014
Internet trolls are fairly harmless, but take troll behaviour into the real world and it can be a tad dangerous.

From the wikipedia article on the current ebola outbreak:
Denial in some affected countries has often made containment efforts difficult. ... There are reports that some people believe that the disease is caused by sorcery and that doctors are killing patients. In late July, the former Liberian health minister, Peter Coleman, stated that "people don't seem to believe anything the government now says." Acting on a rumor that the virus was invented to conceal "cannibalistic rituals" ... In Liberia, a mob attacked an Ebola isolation centre stealing equipment and "freeing" patients while shouting "There's no Ebola".
NOM
4 / 5 (4) Aug 28, 2014
oops, duplicate post
Captain Stumpy
4.4 / 5 (7) Aug 28, 2014
Internet trolls are fairly harmless, but take troll behaviour into the real world and it can be a tad dangerous.

From the wikipedia article on the current ebola outbreak:
Denial in some affected countries has often made containment efforts difficult. ...Acting on a rumor that the virus was invented to conceal "cannibalistic rituals" ... In Liberia, a mob attacked an Ebola isolation centre stealing equipment and "freeing" patients while shouting "There's no Ebola".
@NOM
one more reason to keep up the fight here and get rid of the idiot trolls!

WOW!
that was some read!
THANKS for the post NOM
SCARY... I can see some of the idiot trolls here supporting the morons "freeing patients" ...

because even their unsupported non-empirical debunked view deserves to be heard and they should be considered every bit as relevant as empirical science...
right Zeph?
right cd?

TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (8) Aug 28, 2014
He asked for a peer reviewed manuscript, not whether such people exist!
Plenty of 'peer review', scholarly consensus, and whatever else you may need.

"The Christ myth theory is the proposition that Jesus of Nazareth never existed, or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity and the accounts in the gospels. Many proponents use a three-fold argument first developed in the 19th century that the New Testament has no historical value, there are no non-Christian references to Jesus Christ from the first century, and that Christianity had pagan and/or mythical roots.

"In recent years, there have been a number of books and documentaries on this subject. Some "mythicists" concede the possibility that Jesus may have been a real person, but that the biblical accounts of him are almost entirely fiction"
http://en.wikiped...h_theory

-Lots of theologians listed.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (6) Aug 28, 2014
And before you go squawking like you think you know what peer review is, try doing some research first.

"In parallel with these 'common experience' definitions based on the study of peer review as a pre-constructed process, there are a few scientific understandings of peer review that do not look at peer review as pre-constructed. Hirschauer proposed that journal peer review can be understood as reciprocal accountability of judgements among peers. Gaudet proposed that journal peer review could be understood as a social form of boundary judgement - determining what can be considered as scientific (or not) set against an overarching knowledge system, and following predecessor forms of inquisition and censorship..."
http://en.wikiped...r_review
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (10) Aug 28, 2014
"In Liberia, a mob attacked an Ebola isolation centre stealing equipment and "freeing" patients while shouting "There's no Ebola"."

-Yeah they did this with the polio outbreak as well. But I have a theory about this particular break-in... Fundy terrorists want to strike a blow against their western enemies. They think that ebola can be effective if introduced at multiple entry points on US soil.

And so they break into this clinic in search of blood samples, or actual patients, whom they can use to infect jihadis who would then board flights from neutral countries and land at various airports around the US.

They might plan to meet up with domestic terrorists who would then infect themselves and head for large sporting events, transportation hubs, etc to spread the message of allah through death and disease.

So does this make me a troll?
NOM
4.7 / 5 (7) Aug 28, 2014
Thanks Ghost. Youve taken an already scary possibility of an outbreak that could turn into a pandemic and made it a near certainty. I feel much better now.
Captain Stumpy
4.9 / 5 (8) Aug 29, 2014
They might plan to meet up with domestic terrorists who would then infect themselves and head for large sporting events, transportation hubs, etc to spread the message of allah through death and disease.

So does this make me a troll?
@Otto
nope.
this makes you smart and shows that you can think like a terrorist does...

I can see terrorists trying this, too. They have already tried to steal the virus as well as kidnap people capable of making it (& also trying to educate some of their own to make it or turn others capable of making it)

and again, just like you point out... it is religion pushing this issue.

very cogent post, Ghost
you should work for Homeland
johanfprins
1 / 5 (8) Aug 29, 2014
"The Christ myth theory is the proposition that Jesus of Nazareth never existed, or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity and the accounts in the gospels. Many proponents use a three-fold argument first developed in the 19th century that the New Testament has no historical value, there are no non-Christian references to Jesus Christ from the first century, and that Christianity had pagan and/or mythical roots.

"In recent years, there have been a number of books and documentaries on this subject. Some "mythicists" concede the possibility that Jesus may have been a real person, but that the biblical accounts of him are almost entirely fiction"
http://en.wikiped...h_theory

-Lots of theologians listed.

You are again missing the point as you usually do with your low IQ. Show me a publication on this topic that was PEER-REVIEWED and allowed through by the theologian's peers who are in charge of accepted Christian churches.
johanfprins
1 / 5 (9) Aug 29, 2014
"In parallel with these 'common experience' definitions based on the study of peer review as a pre-constructed process, there are a few scientific understandings of peer review that do not look at peer review as pre-constructed. Hirschauer proposed that journal peer review can be understood as reciprocal accountability of judgements among peers.
This can only be the case if it actually is a peer that is reviewing your manuscript. But one does not know if this is the case since the reviewer hides behind a mask of anonymity. You do not know whether your manuscript might be reviewed by idiots like The Furlong, Captain Stumpy, Noumenon, or even Zephyr. One must have the opprtunity to challenge the competence of the reviewer: And this means that the reviewer must be known..

The latter is so damn obvious that it is mind-boggling that anonymous reviewing is allowed. Any system that can be abused WILL BE ABUSED! Anonymous "peer"-review is designed to be abused and IS being abused.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 29, 2014
"An unusual respiratory virus is striking children in the metro in big numbers. Children's Mercy Hospital is hospitalizing 20 to 30 kids a day with the virus. The hospital is as full now as it is at the height of flu season."
"An unusual respiratory virus is striking children in the metro in big numbers. Children's Mercy Hospital is hospitalizing 20 to 30 kids a day with the virus. The hospital is as full now as it is at the height of flu season."
http://fox4kc.com...ro-kids/

Thousands of illegal aliens are flooding across the US border. Coincidence?
strangedays
5 / 5 (8) Aug 29, 2014
Very sad. On an article discussing trolling - there appears out of nowhere - a comment about a respiratory virus striking children in Kansas City Mo - and a connection is then made to 'illegal aliens' flooding across the US border.

No scientific evidence is given to support any connection between this virus outbreak - and 'illegal aliens'. The fact that the closest border is around 800 miles is not mentioned.

The attempt here is clearly to whip up bad feeling towards 'aliens' - or in other words people of color.

Nice example of trolling of the worst kind - very germane - and instructive for us. Thanks Ryggy.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 29, 2014
The fact that the closest border is around 800 miles is not mentioned

"The Obama Administration remains tight-lipped about the location of illegal immigrant children it has moved around the country.

Last week, the Department of Defense released information about three locations being used to house the children coming across the border. The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) has begun using Naval Base Ventura County, Calif., Joint Base San Antonio-Lackland, Texas, and Fort Sill, Oklahoma, to house the "unaccompanied alien children,""
"The Education Department said it is investigating 14 schools or districts for possible violations since 2011. They are in Arizona, Colorado, the District of Columbia, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, South Carolina and Virginia. There were four complaints against Kansas City, Kansas, Unified School District 500."
http://www.sandus.../5613486
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.4 / 5 (8) Aug 29, 2014
Thanks Ghost. Youve taken an already scary possibility of an outbreak that could turn into a pandemic and made it a near certainty. I feel much better now.
Well of course others including Tom Clancy have already thought of this.
http://youtu.be/O_j9uKBmUEk

I would rather be good than original. I only offer a scenario of how it might happen today, and some possible evidence that includes real-world events.

Don't worry - if it's inevitable then it cannot be allowed to happen by itself. Any such attack would necessarily be Planned and Orchestrated so that it does not endanger critical infrastructure. It would necessarily be Constructive rather than destructive; simply because it CAN be, and so it must.

Bin laden was a western Operative. ISIS is obediently herding large numbers of hapless young hotheads into collection areas for disposal, in similar fashion.

Hail Empire.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 29, 2014
Missed the key point:
"It is enterovirus 68. The doctor says it's well-known around the world, but cases have not been seen in Kansas City before."
http://fox4kc.com...ro-kids/
strangedays
4.8 / 5 (8) Aug 29, 2014
Missed the key point:


The key point was very obvious. There is no scientific evidence presented in your Fox News article at all. The connections between people coming across the US border - and this respiratory outbreak are NONEXISTENT. The key point was a blatant example of trolling. No scientific evidence presented whatsoever. Pure racist scaremongery. Nice job Ryggy.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.1 / 5 (7) Aug 29, 2014
PEER-REVIEWED and allowed through by the theologian's peers who are in charge of accepted Christian churches
Peer-review... Xian churches... Ahaahaaahaaaa.

The catholic doctrines of the real presence of Christ at the Eucharist, payment for indulgences, and the idea that god has a mother, have failed to pass peer review in most Protestant churches. The rejection process led to a reduction in the population of germany by 1/3 in the 1600s.

Academic peer review is somewhat more reserved. I provided you a ref which is full of this sort of review, which is the only kind that matters.
strangedays
4.1 / 5 (9) Aug 29, 2014
ON HEV 68 - I did a quick google of the virus HEV 68. No mention anywhere of this virus being prevalent in S. America. Here is a relevant bit of research -

"The six clusters of respiratory illness associated with HEV68 described in this report occurred in Asia, Europe, and the United States during 2008–2010."

http://www.medsca...e/751032

Oh - but let's blame the 'aliens' coming across our southern border - with NO scientific evidence.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (6) Aug 29, 2014
The key point was very obvious. There is no scientific evidence presented in your Fox News article at all. The connections between people coming across the US border - and this respiratory outbreak
-Except that here's a paper by the NCBI on this very subject.
http://www.ncbi.n...5166761/

"In summary, these cases represent a potential infectious disease hazard of illegal immigration."
strangedays
4.2 / 5 (10) Aug 29, 2014
The key point was very obvious. There is no scientific evidence presented in your Fox News article at all. The connections between people coming across the US border - and this respiratory outbreak


Do you see the words "this respiratory outbreak" Otto. Shit - to paraphrase your own words - you say some stupid things. Your article did not say which country it was looking at. It was about - viral myocarditis. Shit Otto - it can be depressing to see the level of scientific ignorance displayed here sometimes. Ryggy was talking about HEV - 68 in Kansas City, MO. And you respond with an article about viral myocarditis, - in an unamed location.

Want to advertise your stupidity and scientific illiteracy any further?
johanfprins
1 / 5 (9) Aug 29, 2014
The catholic doctrines of the real presence of Christ at the Eucharist, payment for indulgences, and the idea that god has a mother, have failed to pass peer review in most Protestant churches. The rejection process led to a reduction in the population of germany by 1/3 in the 1600s.
I have not talked about Christ at the Eucharist, paying for indulgences, god has a mother. That is the problem with you: You are too stupid to stick to the topic!

Academic peer review is somewhat more reserved. I provided you a ref which is full of this sort of review, which is the only kind that matters.
Academic review of modern physics is at the moment more dogmatic and absurd than any religious review has EVER been At least in the churches the peers did not hide behind anonymity when they screwed other people.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 29, 2014
Oh - but let's blame the 'aliens' coming across our southern border - with NO scientific evidence.

It's easy since NO one is screening illegal immigrants. No evidence because no one is looking. A very convenient excuse.
AGWites claim precaution to justify their call for more 'govt action', but with thousands of unscreened illegal aliens streaming across the borders, from all over the world, AGWite 'liberals' are not worried. 'Liberalism' must be a mental disorder.
Immigrants at Ellis Island were screened for disease and many sent back.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Aug 29, 2014
No evidence because govt says so.

"government-contracted security force is threatening to arrest medical personnel at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, if they reveal information about the rampant disease among the illegal migrants at the facility. "
"The counselor reports that measles, chicken pox, strep throat, lice, and scabies are pandemic in the camp; moreover, she warns that many of the children and young people have severe psychological and emotional problems.

Yet it gets even worse. A former camp nurse told Starnes that the facility was being inundated with migrants to an extent where it was impossible to control the disease."
http://www.thenew...-to-jail
barakn
4.8 / 5 (9) Aug 29, 2014
Missed the key point:
"It is enterovirus 68. The doctor says it's well-known around the world, but cases have not been seen in Kansas City before."
http://fox4kc.com...ro-kids/
- soggyring2

First isolated in California in 1962. It's an American virus, asshole. Go take your racist rants to some other forum.
SaulAlinsky
4.6 / 5 (9) Aug 29, 2014
Ryggesogn2 is such a transparent racist.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 29, 2014
Do you see the words "this respiratory outbreak" Otto. Shit - stupid Shit stupidity illiteracy
Well I dont think the vector or the disease are particularly important. What is IMPORTANT is the potential for infection from illegal aliens flooding across unsecured borders.

I showed you an example of professionals who have documented at least one example of contagion spread by illegal immigrants. Why do you consider it so far-fetched that ryggys disease (no not dementia) could have entered this country in a similar fashion?

And save your vitriol for when I actually say something stupid. Which is never.
First isolated in California in 1962. It's an American virus, asshole
They dont know the origin. It is identical to eurasian strains.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 29, 2014
"... illegal immigrant minors entering the U.S. are bringing serious diseases—including swine flu, dengue fever, possibly Ebola virus and tuberculosis—that present a danger to the American public as well as the Border Patrol agents forced to care for the kids, according to a U.S. Congressman who is also medical doctor.

"This has created a "severe and dangerous" crisis, says the Georgia lawmaker, Phil Gingrey. Most of the Unaccompanied Alien Children (UAC) are coming from Central America and they're importing infectious diseases considered to be largely eradicated in this country. Additionally, many of the migrants lack basic vaccinations such as those to prevent chicken pox or measles, leaving America's young children and the elderly particularly susceptible, Gingrey reveals."

"The administration has worked hard to keep that information secret, though some of it is slowly leaking out. One major news station reports that tuberculosis is spreading at the camps..."
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (8) Aug 29, 2014
I have not talked about Christ at the Eucharist, paying for indulgences, god has a mother. That is the problem with you: You are too stupid to stick to the topic!
No you talked about some nonsense regarding 'peer review' of church doctrine. And so I was elucidating how ridiculous this notion is.
At least in the churches the peers did not hide behind anonymity
Well of course not. We know their decisions are divinely inspired.

"Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error"
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 29, 2014
Ryggesogn2 is such a transparent racist.

What is racist about controlling borders?
Obama is racist, by that definition, as his regime wants to keep businesses, like Burger King, from escaping high US corp tax rates. Borders, rule of law, etc. DO matter to 'liberals' when anyone tries to leave to avoid being 'raped' and plunder by the Obama regime.
johanfprins
1 / 5 (8) Aug 29, 2014
No you talked about some nonsense regarding 'peer review' of church doctrine. And so I was elucidating how ridiculous this notion is.
I made an allegorical comparison you DICKHEAD. I did it to show that "peer-review" in physics is at present the same as an inquisition to protect mainstream dogma at all cost

"Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error"
And in modern physics we have that Peter's name has become Niels Bohr!
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Aug 29, 2014


"Intelligence officials have picked up radio talk and chatter indicating that the terrorist groups are going to "carry out an attack on the border," according to one JW source. "It's coming very soon," according to this high-level source, who clearly identified the groups planning the plots as "ISIS and Al Qaeda." An attack is so imminent that the commanding general at Ft. Bliss, the U.S. Army post in El Paso, is being briefed, another source confirms. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) did not respond to multiple inquiries from Judicial Watch, both telephonic and in writing, about this information."
http://www.nation...southern

"Democrats are more afraid of global warming than the threat posed by the Islamic State terrorists, according to a new Pew Research Center poll."
http://www.breitb...han-ISIS
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Aug 29, 2014
"Democrats are more afraid of global warming than the threat posed by the Islamic State terrorists, according to a new Pew Research Center poll."
http://www.breitb...han-ISIS

" The information on the laptop makes clear that its owner is a Tunisian national named Muhammed S. who joined ISIS in Syria and who studied chemistry and physics at two universities in Tunisia's northeast. Even more disturbing is how he planned to use that education:

The ISIS laptop contains a 19-page document in Arabic on how to develop biological weapons and how to weaponize the bubonic plague from infected animals.

The ISIS laptop contains a 19-page document in Arabic on how to develop biological weapons and how to weaponize the bubonic plague from infected animals.

"The advantage of biological weapons is that they do not cost a lot of money, while the human casualties can be huge," the document states. "
www.foreignpolicy.com
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Aug 29, 2014
Ryggesogn2 is such a transparent racist.


"Mexico has recently launched its largest crackdown of illegal migration in decades, and it is yielding major results. Reports say their efforts have dramatically cut down the number of children and families making it across the border."
http://www.breitb...migrants
Mexicans are racist?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (6) Aug 29, 2014
No you talked about some nonsense regarding 'peer review' of church doctrine. And so I was elucidating how ridiculous this notion is.
I made an allegorical comparison you DICKHEAD
So next time choose your examples more carefully and you wont draw the appropriate criticism penis breath.
. I did it to show that "peer-review" in physics is at present the same as an inquisition to protect mainstream dogma at all cost
Well you failed didnt you?
freethinking
1 / 5 (12) Aug 29, 2014
Rygg, I wonder how many commentators on PHYSORG are actually Paid Progressive Government Trolls (PPGT).

So many are on here are parroting nothing more than Democrats talking points and they all seem to be in lock step from post to post.
strangedays
4.8 / 5 (10) Aug 29, 2014
Mexicans are racist?


You are a racist. No one has said we should not control the border. Your racism is in dropping a clearly racist little post - that has nothing to do with the topic of this article. You posted an article about a viral outbreak (HEV 68) in Missouri - and then tried tying that outbreak to 'illegal immigrants' crossing the border. It is clearly to scientific for you to understand that in order to make THAT connection - one would need to have data.

Once again - you go totally off topic - to expose your underbelly of racism. Others noticed also. Why don't you wise up - and keep that garbage to yourself.
strangedays
4.4 / 5 (10) Aug 29, 2014
So many are on here are parroting nothing more than Democrats talking points and they all seem to be in lock step from post to post.


So I think that you are saying that it is a democratic talking point to oppose blatantly racist trolling. Interesting perspective there.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Aug 29, 2014
and then tried tying that outbreak to 'illegal immigrants' crossing the border.

How is this racist?
Illegal aliens from all over the world, including Muslims from ISIS, are crossing the southern border, with the permission of the Obama regime and his fellow travelers.
No one has said we should not control the border.

But when anyone demands the border be controlled, 'liberals' like strange cry 'racist'.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Aug 29, 2014
Ryggesogn2 is such a transparent racist.


Is this why 'liberals' cry racist so often?

"A care worker, who worked at children's homes from 2003-2007, told the BBC men would arrive almost "every night" to collect girls, who escaped using a range of methods and were then usually driven off in taxis.
The carer, who wished to remain anonymous, claimed staff were reluctant to intervene in some cases for fear of being classed as "racist"."
"The inquiry team noted some council staff feared being labelled "racist" if they focused on victims' descriptions of the majority of abusers as "Asian" men"

http://www.bbc.co...28974336
strangedays
4.6 / 5 (10) Aug 29, 2014
How is this racist?


Perhaps you really are that dumb, as well as racist - so I will play along anyway.

This thread was about trolls. Out of the blue - you post a comment about a virus outbreak in Missouri. There is no earthly reason why you would have posted that comment - other than to stir up discord. That comment was totally off topic. The racist part of it - was that the article then goes on to try to connect the virus outbreak - with 'illegal aliens' (code for brown people) coming across our southern border. Well - there was no connection at all to be made between these two events - which makes the article racist scaremongery - and therefore your posting of that article - in such an off topic way - exaclty that. Why don't you keep that garbage to yourself.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 30, 2014
Ryggesogn2 is such a transparent racist.

"the appalling revelations from Rotherham, a drab town in South Yorkshire in which over the course of a decade and a half some 1,400 girls (as young as 11) were "groomed", drugged, raped, traded and, occasionally, doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight. All the while, the entire apparatus of the state, from the political class to the police to the "child protection" agencies, looked the other way - for fear of appearing "racist" or "Islamophobic". "http://www.steyno...-manners

The racist part of it - was that the article then goes on to try to connect the virus outbreak - with 'illegal aliens' (code for brown people)


Not my code. YOUR code. If it's YOUR code, that's racist.

Illegal aliens crossing the US southern border are from all over the world and is well documented. For example,Chinese are smuggled across and wind up working in Chinese restaurants.
johanfprins
1 / 5 (8) Aug 30, 2014
. I did it to show that "peer-review" in physics is at present the same as an inquisition to protect mainstream dogma at all cost
Well you failed didnt you?


No you are the failure who cannot see that when a system can be abused it will be abused. That is human nature; no matter what your religion is!

Just as anonymity on these internet-forums is being abused on a daily basis by people like you!
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Aug 30, 2014
The Pavlovian 'liberal' cry of 'racist' when one wants to control immigration is very anti-science as it denies reality and promotes their fantasies.
'Liberal' AGWites are so worried about climate change, but totally stupid of the many other risks that will kill them much faster.
I say stupid because they choose to stay ignorant and not address more immediate risks and mitigation of those risks. And what's worse, the apparent motivation for such stupidity is the fantasy of political power.
Stupid 'liberals' in South Yorkshire enabled the rape and abuse of hundreds of girls.
Stupid 'liberals' refuse to control the US borders allowing the diseased, the violent and the criminal to create mayhem. All to build a perceived political underclass for 'liberals' to control.

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Aug 30, 2014
"Unaccompanied Children Released to Sponsors by County "
"KS Wyandotte County 53"
http://www.acf.hh...y-county

"Hospitals first saw unseasonal breathing difficulties, coughing, wheezing and fever in children in early to-mid August. They have since linked the symptoms to the enterovirus 68. "
http://kcur.org/p...ity-kids

For the 'liberal' it's politically incorrect to even consider doing a study to determine if the virus is from illegal immigrants.
Anyone who points out the correlation is 'racist'.
Not very scientific.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Aug 30, 2014
How racist!

"College students from West Africa may be subject to extra health checks when they arrive to study in the United States as administrators try to insulate campuses from the worst Ebola outbreak in history."
http://www.breitb...3fd8d7c9
strangedays
4.6 / 5 (10) Aug 30, 2014
Not my code. YOUR code. If it's YOUR code, that's racist.


Just shut up - the only reason you posted an article about a viral outbreak in MO, on a thread about trolling was to stir up discord. YOUR tactics are totally transparent, and you have engaged in this kind of racist trolling multiple times. Now you spam the thread with other comments - that basically are saying - 'look, I'm not racist - see - they are racist'.

No Ryggy - YOU are racist. That is your business - but we can at least ask you to keep that garbage to yourself - or people will call you out on it.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Aug 30, 2014
stir up discord.

No.
It is an example of using science. I observed the story about an unusual virus affecting children in KC and observed how the govt is not screening children crossing the border and are actively dispersing those children all over the USA. Including in KC.
Communicable disease is a real threat that those who claim to love science don't seem to care about, Especially if it is politically incorrect.
It is also an experiment to see how Pavlovian the 'liberals' are on this site. Results: Pavlovian.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Aug 30, 2014
What I have learned debating with 'liberal' AGWites is how quickly they resort to invective.
SaulAlinsky
5 / 5 (10) Aug 30, 2014
Why don't you take your racist bullshit to free republic or stormfront?
strangedays
5 / 5 (9) Aug 30, 2014
It is an example of using science.


No it is not. You provided no support for the claim that there is any relationship between people coming across the border - and an outbreak of a respiratory virus in MO. Science is not done by conjecture - it uses evidence. However - the bigger point is that your comment was totally off topic. It was an example of trolling. Dropping an inflammatory off topic comment out of nowhere. That is trolling - not science. Making it a comment that is designed to stir up racist sentiment makes it even worse.

Look at how many people recognize the racism of your strategy. Keep that garbage to yourself.

It is also an experiment


Oh - now you are a researcher - trying to identify the liberals - on a science web site. Keep that garbage to yourself too - that is also called trolling.
ryggesogn2
1.1 / 5 (11) Aug 30, 2014
Science is not done by conjecture

That's how science begins. Making observations and correlations.
racism of your strategy

Another data point demonstrating the Pavlovian nature of 'liberals'.
how many people

Science is not mob rule.
You and other 'liberals' cry 'racism' with no basis for such an assertion. Except this is the default 'liberal' response.
The mayor of Lynn, MA , a 'liberal' is being accused or racism for wondering how the taxpayer can support dozens of illegal alien children dumped into their school system.
"Undocumented immigrants from Guatemala pretending to be children to enroll in Massachusetts public schools: mayor "
http://www.nydail....1921185
strangedays
4.6 / 5 (9) Aug 30, 2014
That's how science begins. Making observations and correlations.


Oh - but you just happened to forget the next bit right? The development of experimentation, and data to validate your hypothesis. That is what takes conjecture - and turns it into science. You just participated in race baiting conjecture. 'Oh look - there is an outbreak of a respiratory virus in MO - I wonder if that could be related to 'illegal immigration' of those brown people coming across our southern border (nudge nudge wink wink).

I think maybe you are right Ryggy. Maybe liberals are more likely to point out racism when they see it than Conservatives are. Maybe liberals do respect civil and human rights more than Conservatives - and demand certain standards of all people. Not too many liberals at Westboro Baptist are there Ryggy? http://www.bet.co...rch.html
strangedays
5 / 5 (8) Aug 30, 2014
You and other 'liberals' cry 'racism' with no basis for such an assertion.


The basis of the assertion - on this thread - has been explained very clearly. The fact that you choose to ignore that basis - is of course predictable.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Aug 30, 2014
" With the number of students incoming from the Central American nation almost doubling from 56 to 101 in the last school year, she admitted it was "very frustrating."

Kennedy also claimed the cost of educating the overage students was putting serious strain on Lynn's public purse.

And, with federal government not revealing whether they will be reimbursed for the increased outlay, she said it was hitting the blue-collar factory town of 90,000 people hard."
http://www.nydail....1921185

The basis of the assertion - on this thread - has been explained very clearly.

I missed it.
strangedays
4.6 / 5 (9) Aug 30, 2014
I missed it.


I know you did. The rest of us did not.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Aug 30, 2014
I missed it.


I know you did. The rest of us did not.

How is it racist to want illegal immigrants to be deported and for legal immigrants to be screened for communicable disease?
strangedays
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 30, 2014
How is it racist to want illegal immigrants to be deported and for legal immigrants to be screened for communicable disease?


Nobody said it is. The explanation of how what YOU did is racist - is above. Count back about 7 comments - and stay on topic - it is about how your off topic troll baiting comment is racist - nothing else. I am sure you will miss it yet again - and try to keep moving the goal post.

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Aug 30, 2014
ff topic troll baiting comment is racist

Again, how is speculating that illegal immigrants could have introduced EV-68 to KC racist?

It is obvious the federal govt will not dare associate any communicable diseases with illegal immigration. And have even threatened doctors if they discuss it.

We see what happened in England to those who witnessed abuse of teen girls by 'Asians' and were afraid to speak out for fear of being called racist.

Is 'liberalism' a suicide pact?
strangedays
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 30, 2014
Again, how is speculating that illegal immigrants could have introduced EV-68 to KC racist?


Already explained 100 times Ryggy - just stop playing dumb. No evidence whatsoever was presented to link the two events. EV-68 is a respiratory virus - that was found in Europe, and Asia - not South America. KC is 800 miles away from the Mexican border. It is pure race baiting speculation. "Oh - I wonder if the viral infection in KC could be linked to poor brown people coming across our border with Mexico. wink wink.' Again - NO scientific connection was made between the two events. How many times does one have to answer the same question? What you engaged in was purely speculative - non scientific - race baiting. Now just stop it.
strangedays
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 30, 2014
Here is an example of the immorality of some of our politicians - in deliberately demonizing little children - and engaging in hateful scaremongery. Ryggy is buying in to this kind of tactic with his racist baiting on a science site. Wink Wink - says Ryggy - I never actually said there was a link between 'illegal immigrants' - and a respiratory virus in MO - I was just wondering out loud.'

http://www.msnbc....ring-not
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 31, 2014
hat was found in Europe, and Asia -

Illegal immigrants walking across the souther border are from all over the world.
"Border Patrol union officials in the Rio Grande Valley Sector tell National Review Online that they've noticed a recent uptick in the number of Chinese border crossers. "
""hundreds" of OTM illegal aliens from special interest countries from countries including Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Pakistan, Cuba, Brazil, Ecuador, China, Russia, Yemen, Albania, Yugoslavia and Afghanistan have been apprehended in the South Texas region alone since September 11, 2001. "
http://usgovinfo....iens.htm
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 31, 2014
"In a hard-hitting letter to the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Congressman Gingrey demands that the agency keep Americans informed about its plan to handle the growing public health crisis posed by the influx of minors. "As the unaccompanied children continue to be transported to shelters around the country on commercial airlines and other forms of transportation, I have serious concerns that the diseases carried by these children may begin to spread too rapidly to control," the congressman writes. "In fact, as you undoubtedly know, some of these diseases have no known cure.""
http://www.judici...ine-flu/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 31, 2014
"To handle the escalating health crisis the CDC has activated an Emergency Operations Center (EOC), but Gingrey points out in his letter that Congress and the public are being kept in the dark about what it's doing. "I firmly believe the public deserves to know the specific actions the EOC and other departments of the CDC are taking to combat and prevent the spread of communicable diseases," "
""I would also like information on what is being done to protect border patrol agents who come in contact with these diseases, what decontamination efforts are taking place, and what is included in medical screenings of the children."

The administration has worked hard to keep that information secret, though some of it is slowly leaking out. "
http://www.judici...ine-flu/

wink wink

You mean ding-ding?
That's the sound of Pavlov's bell which triggers 'the racist drool' from 'liberals'.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 31, 2014
"Other diseases emerging among Border Patrol agents, he said, include H1N1 Swine flu and chicken pox.

"The Border Patrol is being threatened with lawsuits and firing if they disclose this," he said. "Congressmen are being turned away from the border as they go to investigate this surge of infected illegal aliens being thrown across the border at us."

Speaking to his critics, Savage pointed to his academic qualifications.

"It's easy for you to say I'm simply an alarmist or a racist, I'm a this-ist or a that-ist," he said. "Well you've got it all wrong. The only "ist" I am is an epidemiologist. I am not a racist. I am not an alarmist. I am an epidemiologist by training.""

Read more at http://www.wnd.co...LkXhS.99
strangedays
5 / 5 (6) Aug 31, 2014
Ryggy - all your quote mining about the border - does absolutely nothing change the fact that your comment was off topic - and that the article you referenced provided no scientific data to connect the two events. In other words - yet again - your comment was trolling, designed to stir up discord, and clearly racist scaremongery. There was not one reference in any of your last defensive posts to HEV-68. Again Ryggy - keep your racist trolling garbage to yourself.
strangedays
5 / 5 (7) Aug 31, 2014
You mean ding-ding?
That's the sound of Pavlov's bell which triggers 'the racist drool' from 'liberals'.


No - I mean wink wink - slap slap - that is the sound of the racist hatemongers - who are slapping each other on the back - because they have succeeded in demonizing little children - and stirring up racist scaremongery.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 31, 2014
comment was off topic

How?
The topic is debating science and troll, like strange who resort to invective instead of discussing the topic.
cientific data to connect the two events.

1) The US govt is allowing and enabling thousands of illegal immigrants from all over the world to enter the country with no medical screening.
2) The US govt threatens doctors and border patrol agents if they discuss the medical conditions of the illegal immigrants.
3) If EV-68 is the result of illegal immigrants, the govt will not likely release that information and doctors will fear to even look.
4) Political fear motivated responsible authorities to ignore the rape and abuse of children in UK by Muslims.

Maybe EV-68 is not from illegal immigrants, but if it is, there is no motivation on the part of the state, or science, to know, motivation for science to hear no evil and see no evil.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Aug 31, 2014

"In one study of fairly affluent kids in an Ohio suburb, Riley reports that researcher John Ogbu, a Nigerian-born anthropologist and Berkeley professor before his death in 2003, found that "black kids readily admitted that they didn't work as hard as whites, took easier classes, watched more TV and read fewer books."

But, of course, the major problem in the black community that accounts for so much of the disparity in achievement and criminal behavior is that more than seven in 10 black children are born to single women and will spend much of their lives with no father present.

If we want to have an honest conversation about race, we need to begin here. Riley is not afraid to confront this issue or any other. "
http://nypost.com...on-race/
What do 'liberals' fear?
Aligo
4 / 5 (6) Aug 31, 2014
@ryggesogn2 yes, the immigration is a problem for USA, but it doesn't belong into subject of this thread, so you're just trolling here. The trolling means, you're off topic, not that you're correct or wrong. Got it?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (5) Aug 31, 2014
By the way the news has confirmed my prescience re ISIS bioweaponry:

"Found: The Islamic State's Terror Laptop Of Doom
http://www.foreignpolicy.com 08/28/14 06:06 PM ET
Buried in a Dell computer captured in Syria are lessons for making bubonic plague bombs and missives on using weapons of mass destruction."

-Bubonic plague is easy to treat. Bombs are easy to detect. Ebola and other infections are untreatable and people infected with them are often hard to detect. I'm sure that ISIS is not too stupid to know this. They are also wealthy enough to set up labs for tinkering with germs to make them even worse.

Plenty of human bombs out there willing to stroll across our porous borders with Allah in their hearts and pandemic in their guts.
strangedays
5 / 5 (7) Aug 31, 2014
The topic is debating science and troll,


Correct. The topic is not immigrants coming across the border - and assertions that they caused an outbreak of HEV-68 in Missouri.

How can you not understand that simple concept? Dropping racist little troll bait like that on a science thread - tells everyone you are a troll, and a racist one at that. See Aligo (and numerous others) comment above. Just stop it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (4) Aug 31, 2014
@ryggesogn2 yes, the immigration is a problem for USA, but it doesn't belong into subject of this thread, so you're just trolling here. The trolling means, you're off topic, not that you're correct or wrong. Got it?
-says the guy who posted:
The renormalization procedure doesn't differ from pure average at the case of singular solutions. For example the value of cosmological constant obtained from renormalization in string theory still differs by sixty orders of poop
-Ahaahaaahaaaa.

You are way more than two-faced jigga.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 31, 2014
immigration is a problem for USA,

Not just the USA.
Australia, Mexico, EU, UK are all having problems with illegal immigration and people who are concerned being called 'racist'.

Dropping racist little troll bait

I said nothing about race.
It was the racist troll, strange, who asserted racism.

The trolling means, you're off topic

If the topic of the article is trolling, how can I be off topic?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 31, 2014
"Canberra's policy is very clear in that "if you get on boat and illegally try to come to Australia, you will never, ever be allowed to settle in Australia.""
http://www.thehin...812.ece"

"Home Office accessing NHS records to help track down illegal immigrants"
http://www.thegua...migrants

At least some countries are making efforts to deport illegal immigrants.
strangedays
5 / 5 (8) Aug 31, 2014
I said nothing about race


You didn't have to. That is what is called dog whistling. Why else would you have dropped a post about a viral infection in Missouri - and linked it to 'illegal immigratio'. As YOU point out - this thread was about science and trolling. Why on earth would you have raised THAT topic - on this thread. There is no other reason - than you wanted to bait. You wanted to raise the topic of race - of course without actually saying the word. That is the whole game. Just stop it - you racist troll.
Aligo
3.7 / 5 (6) Aug 31, 2014
You are way more than two-faced jigga
It was single comment and as such it wasn't distractive (it was actually ignored with others completely). But the fact, 85%+ comments here about racism, immigrants and progressives isn't accident and it's the job of single person, who has this topic as his life theme. The problem with trolling arises, not when you're off-topic occasionally, but when you derail the discussion with your off topic theme systematically.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.6 / 5 (8) Aug 31, 2014
You are way more than two-faced jigga
It was single comment and as such it wasn't distractive (it was actually ignored with others completely). But the fact, 85%+ comments here about racism, immigrants and progressives isn't accident and it's the job of single person, who has this topic as his life theme. The problem with trolling arises, not when you're off-topic occasionally, but when you derail the discussion with your off topic theme systematically.
And ALL initial comments on AWT are from you. And they're never on topic.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 31, 2014
Why else would you have dropped a post about a viral infection in Missouri - and linked it to 'illegal immigratio'.


Because it just might be linked to illegal immigration.
So you think several hundred children in hospital in Kansas City with a rare virus is normal?

ou wanted to raise the topic of race -

I said nothing about race until Strange accused me of racism, which I point out is a common from 'liberals' who refuse to address reality and how such tactics of intimidation can lead to rape and torture of teenage girls in UK.
strangedays
5 / 5 (8) Aug 31, 2014
Because it just might be linked to illegal immigration.


So what? The topic of this thread is science and trolling - not illegal immigration and viral infections. You dropped that little bomb on this thread - as a total troll baiting fishing expedition.

I said nothing about race until Strange accused me of racism,


And I was totally justified in doing so - especially given your history of dropping little racist baits - like 'turd world country', and others in the past.

If you want to understand the connection between the comments you made - and racism - take a read of this article that I have already cited - http://www.msnbc....ring-not

Understand something Ryggy - you can try calling others racist all you want, you can wriggle and squirm as much as you want - the facts are there for all to see. You should just shut up - and keep your garbage to yourself. Otherwise - understand that others will call you out.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 31, 2014
You dropped that little bomb on this thread

Which you could have ignored.
'turd world country

What does this have to do with race?

Ever been to a third world country?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 31, 2014
"UN deputy secretary general says failure to address sanitation and open defecation threatens disaster for third of humanity"
http://www.thegua...un-chief

"Sunita's family in the north Indian village of Mukimpur were given their first toilet in February, one of millions being installed by the government to combat disease. She can't remember the last time anyone used it. "
"When nature calls, the 26-year-old single mother and her four children head toward the jungle next to their farm of red and pink roses, to a field of tall grass, flecked with petals, where the 7,000 people of her village go to defecate and exchange gossip. "
http://www.bloomb...hem.html
And don't forget all the cattle roaming around India with no diapers.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 31, 2014
"Diseases from unsafe water and lack of basic sanitation kill more people every year than all forms of violence, including war. (source) Poor sanitation causes severe diarrhea, which kills 1.5 million children each year. "
http://www.toilet...itation/
AGWites must love the 'turd' world as their economic polices make everyone poor.
strangedays
5 / 5 (7) Aug 31, 2014
Which you could have ignored.


And I chose not to - I chose to show you up for you nasty troll baiting - my choice.

What does this have to do with race?


It is an insulting - derogatory term - used by people wanting to denigrate poor countries around the world - and poor countries are of course predominantly made up of people of color. So what do you think is behind using the term 'turd world' ryggy. Are you trying to be hateful to poor people of colour? Denigrate their country? Call them pieces of shit?

Here take a look at what some of your brothers mean when the talk about 'turd world'

https://www.youtu...4SMKbafo

Filthy racist.
ogg_ogg
1 / 5 (8) Aug 31, 2014
No law keeping on topic & this thread has left the original subject far behind. Brown makes the same assertion repeatedly (anecdotally). Don't mistake me: I am firmly in the evidence based science camp. BUT, his repetitive criticism of "trolls" because they don't accept the consensus/majority/experts is just very sad to see. My guess (anecdotally) is that there are MORE science trolls than anti-science trolls on this site. Only reason for disparaging one and not the other is bias. I rolled my eyes at his assertion that "medical professionals" can evaluate the evidence. Most are no more capable than BA's in Art History of scientific scrutiny, imho. Most. His link Science is Religion is risible too. There is,afaics, nothing substantitive there. Bayesian inference, given the prior that God (with near certainly) exists, leads LOGICALLY to the conclusion that contrary evidence is also with near certainty in error or misinterpreted. Impugning competence/motives isn't necessarily right.
ogg_ogg
1 / 5 (9) Aug 31, 2014
The only reason I can see Brown waded into the abortion/breast cancer question is a (liberal) agenda. Note how he (to exaggerate slightly) worships at the temple of the Ivy League. Seems to me to make sense that women chosing abortion may be more inclined than average to avoid pregnancy - which is a KNOWN risk factor for b.c. But I have no dog in that fight, just pointing out the obvious. (point being disentangling cause from correlates is real, real hard) There's now several papers claiming the dT pause is due to the Pacific, or wait, the Atlantic. Thing thats lost in all this is the difference between what the science consensus is and what the scientific community's policy consensus is. Take a step back. First we tell the public that AGW is dramatic & "right now", then a 15 year 'pause'. Only AFTER that we admit - well, actually the bulk of the relevant thermal energy is in the oceans which we don't really understand. Yeah, Trust us? you betcha! Kyoto was a joke or SHOULD have been.
NOM
4.7 / 5 (10) Aug 31, 2014
From rygtard:
If the topic of the article is trolling, how can I be off topic?

This is the only thing you have ever posted that I agree with. When the subject is trolling, you rygtard can never be off topic.
strangedays
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 31, 2014
No law keeping on topic & this thread has left the original subject far behind.


Technically not true - see rule 1 on the comments guidelines.

http://phys.org/help/comments/
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Aug 31, 2014
denigrate poor countries around the world

Why are they poor?

Indians are now 'people of color'?
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Aug 31, 2014
What happens when 'liberals' cry 'RACISM' too often.

"I heard directly from victims and their families. Their horrifying stories left me deeply troubled and I shared their anger at how they'd been treated by police and social services. Their pain was made worse by senior officers who told me that children who'd been routinely raped by gangs of men were making "lifestyle choices"."

" A group of senior managers held a dominant view that couldn't be challenged by anyone. In their minds political correctness and cultural sensitivity was more important than shocking criminal behavior. They were more interested in ticking boxes in diversity training than protecting children."
http://www.breitb...anczukMP
strangedays
4.1 / 5 (9) Aug 31, 2014
Indians are now 'people of color'?


No - they are white........

"As an Indian immigrant, calling myself a person of color enabled me to identify with African Americans, Latinos and Native Americans."

http://inamerica....f-color/

You really don't know these things do you? You really do live under a rock.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (7) Aug 31, 2014
AGWites must love the 'turd' world as their economic polices make everyone poor.
Religionists must love the turd world because their forced reproduction and resulting overpopulation makes everyone poor.

"We're looking at 90 million litres of untreated sewage that flows into the ocean every day [from gaza] because there is no electricity to treat it. Ninety percent of the drinking water is not fit for human consumption."

-Not to mention that people like mother Teresa thrive on the very poverty and misery that the church creates with its policies forbidding birth control.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Sep 01, 2014
'Liberal' racism, it's all about power.
"

One of the biggest ironies of this story is that an identity wholly crafted by members of the bureaucracy is being foisted on people who may or may not be ready to accept it but who certainly did not initiate the effort. Generally, it is assimilation and integration as an American that are popularly derided as coercing immigrants into "losing their identity." Apparently no one has thought that forcing people to accept an identity they had never thought of—as Hispanics—also may be coercive.

The knowledge-making elites in the academy, the culture, and the media—always the handmaidens to the federal bureaucracy in liberal endeavors—have strongly nurtured the panethnic group identity. The Spanish-language media are one such strong force, working to create a Hispanic or Latino identity fit for a people who would vie for power not as individuals but as an ethnic group."
http://thefederal...latinos/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Sep 01, 2014
Indians are 'white'?
"Most contemporary anthropologists classify Indians as belonging to one of four major ethno-racial groups, which often overlap with each other because of a continuous process of racial admixture: Caucasoids, Mongoloids and Negritos. Mongoloids are largely confined to the Northeastern region of the country and for the most part, speak Tibeto-Burman languages; and Negritos are found on the Andaman Islands located on the southeastern side of the country. These speak a group of languages known as Andamanese and Ongan languages, linguistic isolates not related to any known languages. And finally, Austro-Asiatic languages are spoken by only tribals or Adivasis, who can be of either Australoid or Mongoloid racial stock.[10]"
http://en.wikiped...in_India
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Sep 01, 2014
"Everyone is familiar with the federal government's classification of race and ethnicity—white, black or African-American, Hispanic, Asian, American Indian or Alaska Native, and Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander. Why did we settle on these particular groupings?

Because they track discrimination. Officials from the Office of Management and Budget, which is responsible for maintaining the nation's racial-classification system, have always admitted that the categories have no scientific or anthropological basis. "
http://www.slate....ay_.html
Racism is created by a 'liberal' state for control.
If there is no basis in science for race, why does strange, who claims to worship science, promote racism?
strangedays
4.6 / 5 (9) Sep 01, 2014
If there is no basis in science for race, why does strange, who claims to worship science, promote racism?


I don't promote racism - you do. I simply called you out on making racist posts. However - there is a basis for talking about race. Do you think that black people - who were being hung from a tree by the KKK - and killed because of the color of their skin - would agree with you that there is no basis for talking about racism?

"Though the biological basis for race is questionable, race and racism are real both socially and culturally."

http://www.sott.n...onstruct
strangedays
5 / 5 (9) Sep 01, 2014
Racism is created by a 'liberal' state for control.


That's right - it was the liberal state that dictated that only white males could vote.

It was courageous civil rights activists - many of whom lost their lives - who fought for the equal rights amendment - and overcame slavery and segregation. No thanks to racists like you Ryggy - who fought the process the whole way. If people like you ran the world - we would still have slaves living in wooden shacks in our yards. Good job there were courageous folks willing to give their lives to overcome attitudes like yours.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Sep 01, 2014
who fought for the equal rights amendment - and overcame slavery and segregation

Like Republican Lincoln and many Republicans in the 60s.
'Liberal' socialists are the ones that NEED to perpetuate racism to keep 'the oppressed' voting for them.
Attitudes like mine are shared by conservatives like Thomas Sowell, Walter E. Williams and Allen Wes who respect the property rights of individuals.
'Liberals' like strange judge people by the color of their skin, not the content of their character. His condescension of the 'brown' people is quite typical. Excusing their character because of their skin color. How racist!
If people like me ran the world, slavery would never have been institutionalized by the state and the state could not plunder anyone.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (6) Sep 01, 2014
No thanks to racists like you Ryggy - who fought the process the whole way. If people like you ran the world - we would still have slaves living in wooden shacks in our yards. Good job there were courageous folks willing to give their lives to overcome attitudes like yours.
Name calling does not mean you're winning an argument. You think restricting illegal immigration is a racist thing? You think Amerinds are white.

Perhaps you don't know what race means. Perhaps spitting bile anonymously gives you a thrill, makes you feel empowered. Either/or. Not very respectable.
Why do you excuse the behavior of the KKK because of race?
The KKK was a religious organization inspired by the bibles endorsement of slavery. In actuality it was a demographic Tool used to move blacks about the country and preventing the establishment of a separate culture in the south.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Sep 01, 2014
Why do you excuse the behavior of the KKK because of race?
Murder is murder regardless of intent.
Why does the state treat the murder of Muslim women by their families different than any other murder?
'Hate' crimes excuse the criminal's intent.
"The liberal critics of George Bush did not become outraged when Horton dismembered his victim and left him to bleed to death horribly in a dumpster. They did not become outraged when then-Governor Dukakis released this convicted murderer on a furlough. They did not become outraged when Horton beat and raped a Maryland woman while her husband was tied up and forced to watch. They only became outraged when this ad brought Dukakis' bad judgment to light."
http://www.solarg...d-crime/

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Sep 01, 2014
"But it was southern Democrats who formed the line to defend Jim Crow. Georgia governor Lester Maddox famously brandished ax handles to prevent blacks from patronizing his restaurant. He was a Democrat. Alabama governor George Wallace stood in front of the Alabama schoolhouse in 1963 and thundered, "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever." He was a Democrat. Birmingham Public Safety commissioner Eugene "Bull" Connor sicced dogs and turned fire hoses on black civil rights demonstrators. He was a Democrat. In 1954, Orville Faubus tried to prevent the desegregation of a Little Rock public high school. He was a Democrat. President Eisenhower, a Republican, sent in federal troops to prevent violence and enforce a court order desegregating the school. As a percentage of their respective parties, more Republicans voted for the passage of the Civil Rights Art of 1964 than did Democrats."
http://www.rightw...things-y
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Sep 01, 2014
"Booker T. Washington argued that one should make it through hard work and the pursuit of excellence, rather than requesting government handouts. He even eerily predicted the emergence of people like Jesse Jackson, who exaggerate the significance of racism. "There is [a] class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs."
http://www.rightw...america/
People like me agree with Booker T. Washington and Larry Elder.
People like strange agree with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Sep 01, 2014
"Political corruption primarily by democrats in South Texas has been exposed by federal agencies, shedding light into other cases of vote buying, contract rigging by school boards, bribery money laundering, and other criminal cases.

Eight months ago, Donna ISD School board president Alfredo Lugo hanged himself after federal agents arrested another group of politiqueras for buying votes using cash, beer and cigarettes and the school board was mentioned.

One of the public figures to be exposed in recent years is former Hidalgo County Sheriff, Lupe Trevino, who is preparing to serve a 5-year-prison term for taking money from a Mexican drug lord and depositing the cash into his campaign funds. "
http://www.breitb...uy-Votes
strangedays
5 / 5 (6) Sep 01, 2014
Perhaps spitting bile anonymously gives you a thrill, makes you feel empowered. Either/or. Not very respectable.


This from the commenter who recently called someone 'penis breath'. Yes sir - you are so respectful. No - you are a hypocrite.

When pointing out that someone has said something racist - I don't see what being respectful has to do with anything - it is simply factual. I don't see that people who throw around hateful and derogatory terms such as 'turd world country' deserve any respect. Disagree as you wish - my mind is made up on that one otto.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Sep 01, 2014
hateful and derogatory terms such as 'turd world country'

Now it's not racist?
It is a descriptive, factual term, as noted by the lack of toilet facilities.
Isn't 'third' world derogatory?
SaulAlinsky
4.1 / 5 (9) Sep 01, 2014
Third doesn't mean "less than" the second or first. The term comes from the communist states (the second world), those allied against them (the first world), and those unaligned are the third world.

If you weren't such an ignorant racist you might have known that.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.6 / 5 (7) Sep 01, 2014
This from the commenter who recently called someone 'penis breath'. Yes sir - you are so respectful. No - you are a hypocrite
-And you are apparently unable to recognize sarcasm. This is a symptom of senility and/or borderline schizoid personality defects. You want the links?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Sep 01, 2014
Third doesn't mean "less than" the second or first.

Yes, it does.
Why are communists and other socialist tyrannies less than the first world?
Why do so many from the 'turd' world want to escape to the first world? They are tired of the corrupt, socialist crap.
Unfortunately for them, the socialists in the US want to use them to expand socialism in the US. They want to make them instant citizens so they will vote more plunder for themselves.
Trouble is, too many 'liberals' who escape high tax states and countries continue to vote for the parasites who recreate the socialist mess they escaped from.
SaulAlinsky
4.6 / 5 (10) Sep 01, 2014
Yes, it does.

Only in your frightened, racist mind.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (7) Sep 01, 2014
Third doesn't mean "less than" the second or first. The term comes from the communist states (the second world), those allied against them (the first world), and those unaligned are the third world.
Guess that's about where your attention span cut out eh?

"Due to the complex history of evolving meanings and contexts, there is no clear or agreed upon definition of the Third World. Some countries in the Communist Bloc, such as Cuba, were often regarded as "Third World". Because many Third World countries were extremely poor, and non-industrialized, it became a stereotype to refer to poor countries as "third world countries"

"has been used interchangeably with the Less Developed Countries, Global South and Developing Countries to describe poorer countries that have struggled to attain steady economic development"

-The def has evolved. Guess you haven't kept up?
If you weren't such an ignorant racist you might have known that.
Bitch slap. Was it good for you?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Sep 01, 2014
Darn, I thought I coined the term, "turd world".

http://www.urband...=2399060

http://sophia.smi...rld.html
strangedays
5 / 5 (8) Sep 01, 2014
Now it's not racist?


Yeah - it is still racist.
strangedays
5 / 5 (7) Sep 01, 2014
And you are apparently unable to recognize sarcasm. This is a symptom of senility and/or borderline schizoid personality defects. You want the links?


No - that's OK Otto. You kind of sound like Ryggy and Modernmystic. When caught in a contradiction - you say - 'oh it was just a joke'. Senility and schizoid personality probably both apply pretty well to me.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Sep 01, 2014
'Liberals' eat their own.

"Vice President Joe Biden staked his claim to the labor vote by declaring that "it's time to take back America" in order to ensure that the middle class gets an "equal share" of prosperity in the country."
"Biden's comments come shortly after Attorney General Eric Holder said that such language is racist.

"There's a certain level of vehemence, it seems to me, that's directed at me [and] directed at the president," Holder told ABC last month, per the Hill. "You know, people talking about taking their country back. . . . There's a certain racial component to this for some people. "
http://www.nation...l-gehrke
NOM
5 / 5 (8) Sep 01, 2014
Darn, I thought I coined the term, "turd world".

Noone else did. You haven't an original idea of your own. All we expect from you is spamming of quotes and links of other bigots and idiots.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (6) Sep 02, 2014
No - that's OK Otto. You kind of sound like Ryggy and Modernmystic. When caught in a contradiction - you say - 'oh it was just a joke'. Senility and schizoid personality probably both apply pretty well to me.
Thats ok little name caller. When guys like you get annoyed or angry or scared you start lumping people together and calling them names. It's what bigots do yes?
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Sep 02, 2014
Darn, I thought I coined the term, "turd world".

Noone else did. You haven't an original idea of your own. All we expect from you is spamming of quotes and links of other bigots and idiots.

All I expect from you and your kind is invective spam.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Sep 02, 2014
"

"I didn't want the story to be true because it made me deeply uncomfortable. The suggestion that men from a minority ethnic background were committing sex crimes against white children was always going to be the far right's fantasy story come true. Innocent white victims, evil dark-skinned abusers. Liberal angst kicked instinctively into top gear."

The thing that disturbs me is this: that Norfolk was apparently less discomfited by the enormity of the crime itself than he was by the spectre of the "far right's" likely response."

"But the fact that he even raised the issue speaks volumes about the mentality of the liberal-left: so great is its fear of the Far Right Bogeyman that it will do almost anything avoid incurring its wrath - even, in some cases, if it means turning a blind eye to rape, fraud and worse."

http://www.breitb...ar-Right
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Sep 02, 2014
"Sure Norfolk did the brave and decent thing and reported on them. But thousands, if not tens of thousands of his fellow liberals - in the police, in the local councils, in the media, in social services, in the charity sector, in the care homes - didn't.

That's because in perfervid, warped, paranoid imagination of the liberal-left, the "far right" is like Lord Voldemort. Or one of those Indian graveyards you shouldn't build on top of, or one of those Egyptian tombs you shouldn't open: his spectre is so threatening, so ominous, so ne plus ultra of terror-like that almost anything would be preferable to his actually appearing within our midst - up to and including the industrial rape of thousands of white teenagers."
http://www.breitb...ar-Right
NOM
4.3 / 5 (6) Sep 02, 2014
@Michael Brown
So why do you think these trolls come to science sites to post their garbage?

Are they so lonely that pointless arguments give them some form of human contact?
Is it a mental disorder, where they are driven to humiliate themselves or thrive on abuse?

I suspect rygesogn is a strawman sockpuppet trying to make conservatives look bad, which he certainly does.
Zephyr is clearly brain damaged.
Psychotic disorders explain fundies like johanfprins.
But what about the climate change deniers? Is this low IQ or a lack of science education?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Sep 02, 2014
""Six months into the worst Ebola epidemic in history, the world is losing the battle to contain it. Leaders are failing to come to grips with this transnational threat," said MSF international president Joanne Liu."
http://news.yahoo...273.html

Another bad thing that happens in the third world and when the first world opens its doors to the third world, with unguarded borders, the first world will soon join the third world.
strangedays
4.1 / 5 (9) Sep 02, 2014
Thats ok little name caller. When guys like you get annoyed or angry or scared you start lumping people together and calling them names. It's what bigots do yes?


So is calling someone penis breath, or calling me a bigot - not name calling? I think I presented a very substantive argument for calling Rygg a racist. I think that this is a pattern on Ryggs part. I never 'lumped people togeher'. I consistently kept my comments directed at one individual. Yes - Otto - I tore in to you yesterday unfairly - and for that I apologize. I want to leave this thread with a quote that Ryggy often quotes.

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"

The dilema being - what if speaking up against racism - does no good - because evil people don't care about the words.

After this post - I will be deleting my account for good - try to put my energy into other constructive actions.

thermodynamics
5 / 5 (6) Sep 02, 2014
Thats ok little name caller. When guys like you get annoyed or angry or scared you start lumping people together and calling them names. It's what bigots do yes?

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"

The dilema being - what if speaking up against racism - does no good - because evil people don't care about the words.

After this post - I will be deleting my account for good - try to put my energy into other constructive actions.



Strange, I am sorry to hear you are moving on. Your input will be missed on the forum.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Sep 02, 2014
what if speaking up against racism - does no good - because evil people don't care about the words.

Because the people, like strange and Jesse Jackson, the Obama regime, speaking the words, are using racism to promote their evil.
Even worse, by labeling EVERYTHING as being racism, by hearing 'dog whistles' and crying 'racism', diminishes REAL racism and enables crimes like the rapes and abuse in the UK and forces people out of business.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (4) Sep 02, 2014
After this post - I will be deleting my account for good - try to put my energy into other constructive actions
Boo hoo. I did that once after skeptic heretic hurt my feelings. But I found I still had things to say so here I am. Perhaps you've been here before as well? Arkaleus? Thrasymachus? No matter.

And no, wanting to restrict illegal access to our borders does NOT make one a racist. Ryggy might be one but his OT argument in this thread gives no indication of that.
http://youtu.be/QaWUaboCIrM
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 03, 2014
"Using expensive monitors with high-speed cameras and radar detectors, they clocked the speeds of nearly 40,000 drivers on the relevant section of the turnpike. Three researchers then examined the photos to determine the race of the driver — without knowing whether the driver was speeding, which was defined as going more than 80 mph in 65 mph zones.

The result: No racial profiling.

Blacks constituted 25 percent of all speeders and they were 23 percent of drivers stopped for speeding. Controlling for age and gender, blacks sped at about twice the rate of whites. The racial disparity was even greater for drivers exceeding 90 mph.

Inasmuch as the study was irrefutable, Mark Posner, a lefty Clinton holdover in the Bush Justice Department, tried to block it from being released, continuously demanding more information."
http://dailycalle...study/2/
Empirical data showed the NJ HP were not racist.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Sep 04, 2014
"11 things beginning with the letter "S" that someone, somewhere has deemed racist."

"Scrutinizing President Barack Obama is racist, according to MSNBC talking head Chris Matthews, because, Matthews claims, the president's political opponents "assume evil on the part of Obama."
"MSNBC also called media coverage of selfies racist and sexist"
"the AFL–CIO, the largest federation of unions in the United States, suggested that sick days are racist "
"Jackson called Silicon Valley racist because only about seven percent of the tech workers in the region as well as the nation are Hispanic or black,"
"The letter explained that stating a crime suspect's skin color is racist,"
http://dailycalle...he-time/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Sep 04, 2014
"Riley looks at some of the policies implemented in the past 50 years to help poor minorities — minimum wage laws, affirmative action and limiting school choice — and argues they did more harm than good. For example, he argues that minimum wage laws caused a disproportionate number of black Americans their jobs, so that black labor-participation rates are lower now than they were in the Jim Crow era.

What those policies have done is foster an excessive dependence on government in the black community, he says in the book, which the Democratic Party and opportunistic black leaders are using to further their own agenda.

"Democrats have a vested interest in black dependency on government," Riley told The Daily Caller. "It's one way that Democrats keep blacks loyal — they present themselves as the party who gives people things.""
http://dailycalle...mselves/
NOM
5 / 5 (5) Sep 04, 2014
You're still failing the Turing Test rygtard
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Sep 05, 2014
"Brand reflects a larger phenomenon that paints "authentic" blackness as antithetical to education. Brand knows telling a young black American that he looks or sounds too white is an insult.

By his standards, our president isn't black enough. I wonder who is black enough for this white British socialist.

This kind of thinking has been covered widely by many black scholars, and even our president has commented on these toxic notions.

Brand, of course perpetuates education as "stigma" to blacks only -- but not to whites. Brand is hyper-articulate, and so is Riley. Yet it is Riley who isn't allowed such brilliance. Only Brand can use the big words, I suppose."

http://www.breitb...ng-Brand
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Sep 07, 2014
"Black Gang Beats White Couple in Missouri After Sexually Harassing Woman"
http://www.breitb...ng-Woman
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Sep 08, 2014
""Hospitals across the Midwest are being inundated with children infected by a bizarre virus, which first comes on as a common cold before developing into severe respiratory distress." They have no clue. They have no clue.

Now, there's a companion story. Oh, wait, I'm sorry. There isn't a companion story, except that I know there is, but there isn't. The companion story is Obama will not tell anybody where all of the children that have crossed the border in the last four months have been relocated to. I"
"Now, are the two stories related or are they not? Does this sweeping mysterious virus that's multiplying across the Midwest, does it have anything to do with that or not? We don't know. That's the answer. We just don't know. But some people think there may be some kind of a connection. "
http://www.rushli...ere_sent
Who is asking the question?
Vietvet
5 / 5 (4) Sep 08, 2014
""Hospitals across the Midwest are being inundated with children infected by a bizarre virus, which first comes on as a common cold before developing into severe respiratory distress." They have no clue. They have no clue.

No Clue?

You are a despicable liar.

http://medicalxpr...tes.html
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Sep 08, 2014
Either the govt is not asking the question or the govt is lying.
Note the CDC has not stated the illegal immigrants are not the cause.
Why?
Vietvet
5 / 5 (5) Sep 08, 2014
Either the govt is not asking the question or the govt is lying.
Note the CDC has not stated the illegal immigrants are not the cause.
Why?


The CDC is not stated that pixie dust is not the cause. Why?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Sep 08, 2014
Either the govt is not asking the question or the govt is lying.
Note the CDC has not stated the illegal immigrants are not the cause.
Why?


The CDC is not stated that pixie dust is not the cause. Why?

If you are really a Vietnam vet, why do you trust a socialist govt that lies to you?
Didn't you have enough of that with Johnson and Ted Kennedy?
Da Schneib
5 / 5 (3) Sep 12, 2014
Appeal to authority is only a fallacy if the authority is not really an authority.


Patently false...

It doesn't matter what authority we're talking about at all. It's totally irrelevant to the fallacy.
This is incorrect.
APPEAL TO AUTHORITY
Also Known as: Fallacious Appeal to Authority, Misuse of Authority, Irrelevant Authority, Questionable Authority, Inappropriate Authority, Ad Verecundiam

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:
1. Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
2. Person A makes claim C about subject S.
3. Therefore, C is true.

This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious.
Source: http://www.nizkor...ity.html

Some crank is hacking Wikipedia again.
Da Schneib
5 / 5 (3) Sep 12, 2014
Appeal to authority is only a fallacy if the authority is not really an authority. The vast overwhelming community of physicists is a real authority. Pretending they're not is the fallacy.
Pretending that because they know more than a layman that they are infallible absolutely is a fallacy.
Please show where I said they're infallible.

This is called the "Straw man fallacy." http://www.nizkor...man.html