One in four Americans unaware that Earth circles Sun

Well, some religious types do just that

With relativity, you can't even tell the difference between whether you are spinning along with the planet, or whether the entire universe is spinning around you because they both actually produce identical forces from your point of view.

t would be a disaster of economic proportions if too many people were to be educated.

That's a pretty bland obtuse truth that y'all are touting. *How* do you know that Earth orbits the Sun, or, indeed, anything not directly experienced- monads into your mind? Fire is ouch hot. Is there any ouch in ionizing radiation. How about evolution, any direct experience?

How many attended govt union schools?

I'll be down-voted en masse for the rest of this

That's a pretty bland obtuse truth that y'all are touting. *How* do you know that Earth orbits the Sun, or, indeed, anything not directly experienced- monads into your mind? Fire is ouch hot. Is there any ouch in ionizing radiation. How about evolution, any direct experience?

Now I'm just begging for a downvote here! Seriously religious people, in general, have always aspired for truth and answers, especially in science. I say "in general" because there are a lot of blind followers of religion who sadly refuse to confront any discomfort in challenging their faith.

Well actually since rotation is a type of acceleration we can actually tell that the earth is spinning and not the other way around as acceleration is not relative it is absolute. It is only speed that is relative.

"Who in the f%$&! doesn't know that the Earth revolves around the sun? I don't get it, really. In order to not know that, you would have to actively reject the knowledge."

Well, some religious types do just that: http://rationalwi...centrism

According to Einstein "The Earth revolves (sic, should read orbits) around the Sun" is a false statement.

It's not a false statement, it's simply an arbitrary statement because you can freely choose your frame of reference.

That you SHOULD model it either way is not sensible.

So I think arguing that the two points of view are equivalently valid is not merited.

"does the earth circle around the sun?" You answer "yes, it sure does son!!"

If one is true only under one specific set of circumstances and the other is true under all other (an infinite number) sets of circumstances. then odds are that the latter one is a better one to use.

Biased systems have a nasty habit of blinding one to effects of the bias

That's a pretty bland obtuse truth that y'all are touting. *How* do you know that Earth orbits the Sun, or, indeed, anything not directly experienced- monads into your mind? Fire is ouch hot. Is there any ouch in ionizing radiation. How about evolution, any direct experience?

And yet the sun rises from the east and sets in the west.

You could argue that it's wrong to say the earth goes around the sun

So how is our old Newtonian understanding of the world changed in any meaningful sense

How about the audience as the frame of reference. For instance, you get the question from your five year old son "does the earth circle around the sun?" You answer "yes, it sure does son!!"

Then you get the same question from a scientific foundation "does the earth circle around the sun?" You think, duh..yeah. So absurd the question is from the NSF, that you think it's a trick question and answer "no". Then with just a qualifying statement left in your head, the answer to the survey is left as an unqualified no.

See above.

So?

Arguing against what is plain to the naked eye by referring to another similiar illusion is folly, because what you should be arguing is that both are illusions to have any semblance of sincerity. Yet our public face of science is just about replacing one illusion after another as they appear.

t would be a disaster of economic proportions if too many people were to be educated.

Unless they were "educated" by the govt propaganda service NPR?

if in the U.S. I want to receive cable - any type of cable feed at all - I have no choice but to pay money

I'd dispute your implication that they are "govt propaganda",

And we let these people vote?

So how is our old Newtonian understanding of the world changed in any meaningful sense if we plant the Sun, the center of our galaxy, the Earth, or any other particular object as the center of our frame of reference and hold it as more valid than something else?

actually, the precession of the equinoxes and seasons coupled with projected paths of the planets make using the sun as the frame of reference much more conducive to future calculations. if you use earth as your frame of reference all other trajectories would be erratic, When using the sun ALL other trajectories are vastily simplified. it is inately more simple to measure an elipse than a tangled mess. when you make singlular recursive functions more simple you can more easily process more steps.
All physics are heuristics- A heavily simplified way of explaining things that comes 'close enough'. the fact that reality (less and less frequently) doesn't match predictions is proof we're not done yet.

much more conducive to future calculations

In an earth "centred" system of planetary motion, the energy requirements needed to provide the required centripetal forces to force planets like Jupiter, Saturn, etc to follow the weird curved paths around the sun would be preposterous. Where would all this energy come from?

...you DO understand that the water in the bucket spins up in a vacuum universe, right ?

I get the all too subtle hint of prejudice against the religious as if religion equates to being anti-science. Bottom line, it just simply is not true

Then the federal government became involved and our education system has declined in direct proportion to federal involvement.

Are you American, Cocoa?

If you have a society that does not value knowledge, and education,

Why are you unwilling to address the question of why some other countries - that also have government run education systems, are doing so much better than us?

Why do you want me to discuss other country's education systems when I am not familiar with them?

view Science simply as "the set of tools with which we dismantle religious dogmatism"

Thus they come to view Science as validated by the products of its application, and care not to examine the axiomatic foundations on which scientific discoveries are built

other country's education systems

Since you admittedly are not American and did not witness first hand the decline of America's education system at the hand of the federal government, your viewpoint is lacking in actual knowledge of our system

In the 1060's, our federal government began to degrade that education system. I was in the public schools at the time and witnessed it first hand.

You get that when you have families where every living generation has been on government welfare.

most of his peers were focused on partying - doing drugs - and not interested in school. Is that the fault of the federal government?

My children have also done well. Their success is not so much a reflection of the public schools as it is a reflection of their hard work and study.

my grandfather only went to the 8th grade and was better educated than I was in 12 years.

And we let these people vote?

And we let these people vote?

Yep, and look who is the POTUS!

Our society is in crisis -

I do not blame the schools -

not understanding the more complex issues we face.

it is they who attract the high tech jobs and manufacturing opportunities

Dobert - why was your gandfather so much better educated than you?

He understood algebra, geometry, trigonometry and calculus with his 8th grade education. Did you understand these things in the 8th grade?

The Repubs were holding the reins for the past few decades.

we have a banking industry that not only failed to facilitate the American Dream of owning a home but rather increased the homeless problem with foreclosures while lining the pockets of their CEOs with tax-payer bailouts,

forward-looking Dem

Tom Perkins thinks if you pay a million dollars in taxes you should get a million votes:[q/]
He has one point, to vote you must pay taxes.
We now have millions who pay no taxes and vote to have millions redistributed to them.

He understood algebra, geometry, trigonometry and calculus with his 8th grade education. Did you understand these things in the 8th grade? Did your children?

because they had a supportive family environment.

gubment skool system

Those of you blaming religious fundies are just grasping a very thin straws

when did the THEORY of evolution become fact?

One in four Americans unaware that Earth circles Sun

How can anyone come to and register to this site and not understand what a theory is?

Think about how the survey was conducted, and who has the time to answer stupid questions like this. I usually hang up on such nonsense, if I bother answering at all.

This survey means little. And opinions on this survey mean even less.

completely oblivious to the fact that both are the same sort of Newtonian myopia that still pretends there's absolute points of reference in this reality.

What is the problem here? One in four Americans has an IQ under 90, too. :-/

That's not simply for Americans, but for every population.

towards a truer democracy, and towards a more perfect union. Anybody have a problem with that?

I love the pedantic dithering regarding relativity of people who have taken a single semester of college physics.

towards a truer democracy, and towards a more perfect union. Anybody have a problem with that?

Yes.
There is no limit on the power of a majority to abuse, plunder, murder the minority.

What is the problem here? One in four Americans has an IQ under 90, too. :-/

Simple statistics tells us that 50% of all people will score below 100, simply because that is the average. Standard deviation then gives us about 25.2% who score 90 or below. That's not simply for Americans, but for every population.

100 is the median, not the average.

Most American teachers are Democrats.

Actually the minority is protected, equally, from the majority, by the strong set of mutual guarantees we know as the constitution. Erm, on paper anyway.

@Bonia - perhaps I read you wrong - but it sounds like you are advocating ignorance. Don't you think we benefit as a society - if we raise the general level of education?

You mean the government.

I am very aware of the poor level of education in America today. I think the reasons for this are complex. Understanding the poverty trap is a very important part of this. No easy solutions. Our media is also a huge part of the problem.

I think it is due primarily to a degenerating cultural.

Poor, uneducated people are not going to break the shackles of their poverty trap without supports

Ask a slave who worked in the fields 200 years ago, or someone suffering under the peonage system 100 years ago if things are not better today.

You imply that things use to be better - but now they are degenerating.

Actually, it is the liberal mentality that is childlike

I think it is due primarily to a degenerating cultural.

I believe that the greatest chance of solving the problem of poverty is if we all work together - to create a society that values education, science, and mutual respect.

I don't think the problems will come with big government programs, but with a major shift in our whole broken culture. I do not know how that shift is brought about.

I try to have constructive input on sites like Physorg - but one of the biggest problems of our culture - is the dominance of the ignorant trolls - who do not offer solutions

Of course the study was done by an American institution of Americans, and did not make comparisons to other nations

I think it is due primarily to a degenerating cultural.

How does this not imply that things use to be better, but now they are getting worse?

Of course the study was done by an American institution of Americans, and did not make comparisons to other nations

@Noumenon
there are links above in the comments to the whole study
( http://www.nsf.go...seind14/ )
it was international
we actually fared quite well

read the studies... it might take some time

What happened to 'mutual respect' all of a sudden? You call me an "ignorant troll"

Then you admit you have no actual solutions.

I think that as a species - we are in the process of finding those solutions.

Look at what Putin is doing in the Ukraine today.

My appeal is to people like you - to stop hijacking this science site - with your hyper- politicisization. Stick to discussing the science - stop spamming a science site - and using it as your political megaphone - it is a science site.

This article for example bemoans the poor state of science education in the U.S. - a reality that was very obvious when I tried teaching a class at a local university.

Stick to discussing the science

we are in the process of developing solutions to the problems that plague us.

@ Noumenon - I have just re-read all of your comments above - and I fail to see any constructive solutions to the kind of problems that I have raised (example - poor education). Just attacking your straw-man of 'liberals' does not advance solutions.

Stick to discussing the science - stop spamming a science site - and using it as your political megaphone - it is a science site.

Just spouting ideological generalizations proposes nothing.

I've been reading this site for almost seven years, and I can tell you there is a constant stream of biased politically attacks wrapped in the guise of a "study"

You acknowledge that you despise the political bias of a web site - but spend your time trolling that site. This is a destructive behavior.

Physorg is focused on solutions.

- understanding that somehow we must solve problems (let's use what is happening in Syria for example). A blood bath of unimaginable scale.

How is it mutual respect and not destructive behavior for YOU to generalize and categorize my comments as "trolling"?

You do not see physorg as a science site - but as a bias political propaganda site

and can make a constructive contribution

Because by your own stipulation - you despise physorg. You do not see physorg as a science site - but as a bias political propaganda site.

Does the state own the children?

I never said anything of the kind. You just made that up

....there is a constant stream of biased politically attacks wrapped in the guise of a "study...

Arguing with people like you is clearly such a total waste of a persons life. Sorry it has taken me so long to figure it out.

Arguing with people like you is clearly such a total waste of a persons life.

- you will get no argument from me - that centralized - top down solutions - are ineffective, and often have unintended consequences.

I do not think the government is - or should be - the primary agent of education. I actually think that the government does a very poor job of education - and that private schools will always do a better job. I simply support the idea of an educated society vs an uneducated society.

The Pilgrims required parents to teach their children to read so they could read the Bible for themselves. Which was quite a change for its day as only the priests were allowed to read Bibles

Why?
Political power.
Various socialist factions fighting each other for control.
The politics and history of the region can't be ignored and the motivations of major world powers to cause mischief can't be ignored.

it's an catastrophic systemic failure

it's an catastrophic systemic failure

And the pro-statist and anti-religion nuts like auto refuse to be open to solutions that would challenge their paradigm.

claiming that they would create a monopoly for mediocrity by catering to students of low ability. He wanted private schools to compete against each other..

do not put your own words into other peoples mouth,...

"So don't give me this "it's a science site" non-sense. There is plenty of bias propaganda milled here."

constantly start arguments

I would argue that we must promote a culture that has a high regard for education. My children went to a state run school - and received a first class education - and are now both very successful in life. So your premise that the problem is state schools, and unions is bollocks.

the problem of poor education in our society is complex

I would study success stories - and apply them universally

you automatically reject unions or the state are a problem with NO supporting data

Not really

But if education is soo complex how can a universal solution succeed?

Then why do so many parents want their children OUT union controlled, state run schools?

Not really

yes, really

Thanks Captain - you put your finger right on the problem. How can you argue about a problem so complex as education - in a world like ours that is so complex - when someone can so glibly turn around and deny the layer upon layer upon layer of such an issue? It is mind numbing.

if I can show a state run system - that has good educational outcomes (Finland, China etc.) - then I have demonstrated that the state is clearly not THE problem.

Due to the reputation of this school district - parents camp out for weeks - to be on line - to get one of the coveted transfers.

Too complicated for you to understand?

there is no logic or intelligence involved

But coco claims govts, and the unions that pay off the politicians can't be a problem.

No - I am a Brit - living in bible belt America

coco, quite defensive about the failure of most govt run schools aren't we?

It is a very interesting psychology - that someone spend all day long - sitting at a computer - advertising their lack of any kind of ability to understand an argument. I have to be more disciplined - too many things to do in life - without arguing with a brick wall

you must have been home schooled.

it is not reasonable to say that the problem is Unions, and the Government.

Coco confirms my theory that coco can't imagine any effective system that is NOT govt and union run.

Society is complex - and problems like poverty, unemployment, crime, violence, and poor educational systems are all clearly linked. There is no magic bullet - and if you think you have it -

I also commend brave educators who are working in very tough environments to bring about positive change.

The solution is L-I-B-E-R-T-Y.

and in which these problems have been solved.

mediating our coexistence.

"home-schooled boys scored at the 87th percentile and girls at the 88th. Household income had little impact on the results of home-school students: Children of parents with an income between $35,000 and $49,000 scored at the 86th percentile, whereas children of parents with an income over $70,000 scored at the 89th percentile."
"there are two main factors for these outstanding results: the educational environment where learning takes place, and the individualized, one-on-one instruction." -soggyring2

But you advocate MANDATING a co-existence.

but especially dont reply (hard, I know!) :-)

Liberty was working quite well in the USA prior to the 'progressive' era

was the segregated U.S.A.

your example of the perfect society

No, it was not.

"home-schooled boys scored at the 87th percentile and girls at the 88th. Household income had little impact on the results of home-school students: Children of parents with an income between $35,000 and $49,000 scored at the 86th percentile, whereas children of parents with an income over $70,000 scored at the 89th percentile." -soggyring2

how could you suggest that a society in which there is segregation - is an example of some mythical perfect society.

I stated and demonstrated that when individuals have the liberty, societies emerge that do a much better job of resolving problems than the govt does.

Unlike 'progressives', I don't expect the govt to create perfection on earth.

how could you suggest that a society in which there is segregation - is an example of some mythical perfect society.

Unlike 'progressives', I don't expect the govt to create perfection on earth.
I stated and demonstrated that when individuals have the liberty, societies emerge that do a much better job of resolving problems than the govt does.

where people are at liberty to do as they please without government control.

eudal Europe before ca. AD 1000 must really be a dream for you.

What makes Somalia chaotic are those who are attempting to impose their form of govt on the Somalis

here is no real rule of law in Somalia except in very small areas of very limited influence (with very limited power)

While I refuse to respond to trolls like Ryggy...... - Cocoa

It's called Xeer. Why isn't this real law?
BTW, Stump, then you don't believe the Sioux had real law or have the right to govern themselves?

IMHO - there is no real rule of law in Somalia except in very small areas of very limited influence (with very limited power)

"The Law of the Somalis, by Michael Van Notten"
http://explorersf...139.html