Shutdown makes US 'less desirable' for science

Oct 02, 2013 by Kerry Sheridan
NASA's Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution spacecraft with solar panels extended September 27, 2013 is checked by technicians in preparation for a November 18 launch to Mars at the Kennedy Space Center, Florida.

The US government shutdown puts international science collaboration in peril and could have far-reaching impacts on innovation and research, a top science group said Wednesday.

"If the continues for a week or more, it is going to make the United States less desirable as an international research collaborator," said Joanne Carney, director of the American Association for the Advancement of Science Office of Government Relations.

"When funding is no longer reliable, many of our research partners may be unable to continue collaborating with us," she said in a statement.

"That could eventually have longer-term impacts on American innovation and competitiveness."

The majority of staff at US agencies are affected by the shutdown, with half of the Department of Health and Human Services and three quarters of the National Institutes of Health on unpaid leave.

The US space agency has gone almost completely dark, except for support for the International Space Station and its astronauts as well as for other satellite missions now underway.

"No new contracts or grants will be issued by NASA, however, and most pre-launch development work will end," said a statement issued by AAAS, which is the publisher of the journal Science.

The National Science Foundation will be alerting those who are expecting research grants that payments will not be made while the government is out of service.

However, "research that doesn't require federal employee intervention may proceed," said Matthew Hourihan, director of the AAAS R&D Budget and Policy Program.

Hundreds of cancer patients, including children, were expected to be denied entry into last-ditch clinical trials for treatment, a spokesman for the National Institutes of Health told AFP.

The largest research hospital in the world, the NIH Clinical Center is continuing to operate at 90 percent of normal patient load.

That means about 200 patients will be turned away from treatment at the Clinical Center each week the shutdown persists, including about 30 children, a spokesman told AFP.

About 10 of those children have cancer, he added.

The Food and Drug Administration has also warned it would "be unable to support the majority of its food safety, nutrition, and cosmetics activities."

Routine inspections, import monitoring and lab would have to cease until further notice, it said.

Most of the 13,814 employees of the US Department of Energy will be furloughed, leaving only a few hundred staff at the National Nuclear Security Administration.

"Most federal science programs and employees lost support as of midnight 1 October," said the AAAS statement.

A key exception has been the rollout of the healthcare reform law, which opened its online exchanges Tuesday so consumers could browse insurance options, though glitches were common.

The shutdown—the first in 17 years—came after Democrats refused to give in to Republican lawmakers' demands for a rollback of President Barack Obama's healthcare reform law, which Congress passed in 2010 and was subsequently upheld by the Supreme Court.

Explore further: Shutdown blocks care for kids with cancer (Update)

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VENDItardE
1.3 / 5 (28) Oct 02, 2013
awesome news
cantdrive85
1.5 / 5 (35) Oct 02, 2013
"Most federal science programs and employees lost support as of midnight 1 October," said the AAAS statement.

Good riddance! Now stay away.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (29) Oct 02, 2013

"

BASH: But if you can help one child with cancer, why wouldn't you do it?

REID: Why would we want to do that? I have 1100 people at Nellis Air Force Base sitting home. They have problems of their own".
http://www.breitb...m-cancer
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.6 / 5 (15) Oct 02, 2013
Theory: the govt was about to go into default and so decided to use a convenient excuse to close up shop for a little while and save some money.

Im using the word 'theory' in the common usage sense and not in the scientific sense mind you.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 02, 2013
What barakn you think I make this stuff up?

"US President Barack Obama has warned that Wall Street should be concerned that a conservative faction of Republicans is willing to allow the country to default on its debt.

The US government has partially closed after Congress failed to agree a budget and will run out of cash on 17 October unless its debt ceiling is raised."

I am only the messenger of many uncomfortable things.
djr
3.3 / 5 (17) Oct 02, 2013
We are so touched that Ryggy and friends at Breitbart have now come around to supporting government funding of scientific research - otherwise known as SOCIALISM - by the person formerly known as R2.
VendicarE
2.8 / 5 (22) Oct 02, 2013
"REID: Why would we want to do that? I have 1100 people at Nellis Air Force Base sitting home. They have problems of their own". - RyggTard quoting Harry Reid.

Reid is correct of course. The U.S. government can not be held hostage by the needs of one child.

It is disgusting that Republicans would use dying child to try to advance their political goals.

If they really wanted to assist that child, as they claim they do... The Republican party would pay for his cancer treatment themselves rather demanding that government do it.

VendicarE
3 / 5 (26) Oct 02, 2013
"Good riddance! Now stay away." - cantdrivetoostupid

The enemies of America have no greater friend than the tea-Bagger treason party.

ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (24) Oct 02, 2013
We are so touched that Ryggy and friends at Breitbart have now come around to supporting government funding of scientific research - otherwise known as SOCIALISM - by the person formerly known as R2.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'liberals' who refuse to be tolerant of others.
verkle
1.8 / 5 (25) Oct 02, 2013
Totally inappropriate article. Has nothing to do with science. Pure politics.

VendicarE
2.9 / 5 (25) Oct 02, 2013
Republicans hate science as much as they love to destroy their own nation.

djr
3 / 5 (17) Oct 02, 2013
"Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'liberals' who refuse to be tolerant of others"

Yeah - no problem promoting socialism when it suits your purpose. You are the frickin hypocrite.
VendicarE
2.6 / 5 (19) Oct 02, 2013
"Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'liberals'" - RyggTard

And you were a failure at doing so.

How sad for you.
Matthewwa25
3 / 5 (21) Oct 02, 2013
The tea party wants America to be like north Korea. I can't wait to see you bastards defeated.
Matthewwa25
3.2 / 5 (18) Oct 02, 2013
"Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'liberals' who refuse to be tolerant of others"

Yeah - no problem promoting socialism when it suits your purpose. You are the frickin hypocrite.


Really,

Science is why we enjoy being a first world nation. People have gone insane and don't realize that we enjoy the fruits of science.
ubavontuba
2.3 / 5 (24) Oct 03, 2013
Tea Party Republicans and their supporters in Congress should be charged with treason for holding the Nation hostage.

The Affordable Care Act is the law. Get over it.

VendicarE
2.6 / 5 (18) Oct 03, 2013
"Tea Party Republicans and their supporters in Congress should be charged with treason for holding the Nation hostage." - UbVonTard

For once UbVonTard is telling the truth. Very uncommon for him.
VendicarE
2.4 / 5 (16) Oct 03, 2013
"Science is why we enjoy being a first world nation. " - matthewwa25

Not according to the Republicans, Tea-Publicans and Libertarians and Randites.

In their view, America is at it's greatest when the greatest number of Americans are corporate wage slaves.

Apparently having 3 jobs in order to be able to raise a family is the American Dream realized.

VendicarE
2.4 / 5 (16) Oct 03, 2013
"The tea party wants America to be like north Korea." - mattewwa25

Not quite. The Republican goal is a Fascist state where the people are as free as the corporations will permit, and powerless to change their plight.

Given that American Republicans and American Corporations tried to make it illegal for people to collect rain water for their own consumption, no one with an ounce of brains thinks that corporations will provide any freedom at all.

RyggTard considers that perfection.

antialias_physorg
3.7 / 5 (10) Oct 03, 2013
I'm wondering...is there any shutdown of the parts that cost the most money (military actions and military spending in general)? Couldn't find anything about that from the news.
betterexists
1.6 / 5 (13) Oct 03, 2013
Obviously those responsible except for the Executive Wing should be Incarcerated IMMEDIATELY.
betterexists
1.8 / 5 (13) Oct 03, 2013
Low Information Garbage has spread out to science comment section too!
A Cell Phone used by even Bowl carrying Beggars on the streets in poor countries IS AN EXAMPLE OF Triumph of SciTech!
betterexists
1.5 / 5 (13) Oct 03, 2013
The NBC News article says Investors around the world will not lend trillions of dollars to the United States any more (Come Oct 17th).
U.S will be left with an Empty Begging Bowl Soon.
Google News Search for Stock market shaken by shutdown — but debt default would be much worse.
http://usnews.nbc...rse?lite
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (11) Oct 03, 2013
I'm wondering...is there any shutdown of the parts that cost the most money (military actions and military spending in general)? Couldn't find anything about that from the news.
Obviously that would not be prudent as we are at the moment in a war to prevent the emergence of an Islamist empire. We don't want them blowing up OUR malls. Do you want them blowing up YOUR malls?

Perhaps if rich euro nations would contribute more to this endeavor we could afford to cut back a little.
antialias_physorg
2.8 / 5 (13) Oct 03, 2013
We don't want them blowing up OUR malls

Ah yes. Killing others who want to kill americans (because americans started meddling in their lives, organised coups, propped up dictators, and were/are taking resources without proper compensation)...is so much more important than giving your OWN children cancer care.
Thanks for reminding me. I keep forgetting that the ground state of US mentality is 'stark-raving-mad'.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (20) Oct 03, 2013
The NBC News article says Investors around the world will not lend trillions of dollars to the United States any more


Will investors trust China, or Russia or Switzerland or Japan or Germany or .... with their cash?
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (19) Oct 03, 2013
"While the NSF spends most of its funds well, we have recently seen far too many questionable grants, especially in the social, behavioral and economic sciences. Research on subjects such as animal photos in National Geographic may sound interesting, but how does the federal government justify spending over $220,000 on such an endeavor? Additional examples of questionable NSF research grants include topics such as:"
"With limited funding, we must prioritize. Congress is right to ask why NSF chooses to fund research on Mayan architecture over projects that could help our wounded warriors or save lives."
http://www.usatod...2896333/
krundoloss
1.8 / 5 (15) Oct 03, 2013
Honestly, as much as I dislike republicans, I do feel like they are the only thing stopping the government from getting out of control. Of course, them trying to stop the government from going out of control, seems to cause the government to get out of control. Its getting crazy, the American public is losing trust in our gov't more and more, and if things don't stabilize, we will have some sort of revolution or civil war in the next 20 years or so. I think many people are happy, but if the line is crossed, it will get ugly.

The sad thing is, we can't trust the free market, because companies will meet in secret and fix prices, suppress cures for diseases, etc. You can't trust the government to regulate these things, because of the lobbyists and campaign contributions, etc. Pretty much, whoever has the power will abuse it, and the public is left paying the price.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (17) Oct 03, 2013
we can't trust the free market, because companies will meet in secret and fix prices, suppress cures for diseases,


In what truly free market as this occurred?
OPEC meets to try and fix the price of oil. They fail. And they fail because their members and their competitors violate the agreement. And this happens all the time, unless there is some govt regulations enabling the collusion.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (9) Oct 03, 2013
I keep forgetting that the ground state of US mentality is 'stark-raving-mad'
Your cartoon dogma again. These cultures are the end result of 1000s of years of conquest through propagation. They always produce more than they can feed. They are always unhappy except right after the last war or pogrom. And this culture of theirs always tells them their unhappiness is somebody elses fault.

I have proven this to you time and again in the past. We can both see it every day in riots and wars throughout the middle east, in religionists killing one another in most third world countries, in floods of refugees from these lands which is only increasing.
cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (8) Oct 03, 2013
We have allies to protect. They are islands of western stability amidst roiling seas of religion-driven overpopulation. They are populated by people who accept the idea of living within their means. If they fall we fall. If we dont fight to protect them we will be fighting in our own streets.

These terminator cultures will not stop by themselves. They have evolved to be the most efficient at outgrowing and overrunning their neighbors. Pops grow, pressure builds, terrorism ensues, revolution and war follow. ALWAYS.

Look to your own past. Only a few gens ago, religions drove overgrowth in europe to the extent that only 2 wars of unremitting slaughter could provide any relief. But the cultures which caused them were finally broken. People began to look to themselves rather than god to secure their futures.

Its happening again, right before our eyes. You keep wishing and dreaming of wonderland while the adults take the necessary steps to preserve what we have.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (7) Oct 03, 2013
I know you have relatively little regard for facts in this case but Ill post some anyway from this weeks news:

"Italy: More than 100 killed in migrant boat shipwreck
It was one of the deadliest accidents in the perilous crossing thousands make each year, seeking a new life in the prosperous European Union. Smugglers charge thousands of dollars a head for the journey aboard overcrowded, barely seaworthy boats that lack life vests"

"Myanmar Muslim families hide in forests after deadly clashes
...more than 700 rioters, some swinging swords, took to the streets... A 94-year-old Muslim woman died from stab wounds in the clashes that followed, the officer said, adding that between 70 and 80 houses were set on fire. Another officer, however, said only 19 homes were burned"

More than 115,000 people have died in Syria's ongoing civil war, a monitoring group said Tuesday.... more than 41,000 civilians... DEAD.
VENDItardE
1.8 / 5 (20) Oct 03, 2013
Republicans hate science as much as they love to destroy their own nation.



actually, we mostly just hate you and all your vast collection of sockpuppets
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (6) Oct 03, 2013
More?

"Greece Holds Golden Dawn Leader
The party first entered parliament after elections in June 2012... protracted economic crisis and soaring unemployment... third-most popular party in the country..." (sound familiar?)

"One of the few shops that Kenyan soldiers didn't loot during last month's siege by terrorists of a Nairobi shopping mall was a local Bata shoe store..." (probably just trying to feed their families)

"Burmese President Thein Sein is visiting Rakhine state amid a fresh outbreak of sectarian violence between Buddhists and Muslims."

"Despite the ban, [Muslim] Brotherhood supporters continue to take to the streets to protest"

"Critics have called Mr Singh's government one of the most corrupt in India's history following incidents of bribery and other scandals that have prompted the resignation of several cabinet ministers." (corruption is endemic with overpop)

"STOUFFVILLE, Ontario ...six severed cat heads were found in residential locations north of Toronto."
VendicarE
2.6 / 5 (10) Oct 03, 2013
"Will investors trust China, or Russia or Switzerland" - RyggTard

Will they trust the Libertarian who was running the Silk Road and who paid $50,000 to have one of his employees murdered?

The Libertarian was a great fan and student of the Von Mises Institute.

VendicarE
2.5 / 5 (10) Oct 04, 2013
"actually, we mostly just hate you and all your vast collection of sockpuppets" - VendiTard

So your claim is that the hate filled comments you have directed toward evolutionary biologists, LHC physicists, Climate Scientists, Union members, Union supporters, and the dozens of other groups was actually love?

Republicans are pure hate. Everyone knows that.

VendicarE
2.7 / 5 (11) Oct 04, 2013
'In what truly free market as this occurred?" - RyggTard

What market can be truly free without the freedom to employ and purchase the sexual services of children?

What market can be truly free without the freedom to own slaves?

What market can be truly free without the freedom to contract murders and beatings?

What market can be truly free and moral?

Clearly... None...

Noumenon
2.8 / 5 (34) Oct 04, 2013
Republicans hate science as much as they love to destroy their own nation.


Yea, and Republicans eat puppies too.

The tea party wants America to be like north Korea. I can't wait to see you bastards defeated.


Moron. It is those who don't want a legitimate segment of the political spectrum to exercise their representative rights who want the USA to be like NK.
You two dingbats should stop watching so many cartoons.

Tea Party Republicans and their supporters in Congress should be charged with treason for holding the Nation hostage.
The Affordable Care Act is the law. Get over it.


More mindlessness. The GOP are representatives of the American people. They are tasked with effecting congressional funding decisions with their conservative pov. This is lawful and legitimate as much as liberals voted into office. Their say in the matter EXISTS, get over it.

Most Americans do NOT want ObamaCare, yet Obama does not want to negotiate funding at all.
antialias_physorg
4 / 5 (13) Oct 04, 2013
The GOP are representatives of the American people

...now there's a scary thought...
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (31) Oct 04, 2013
Theory: the govt was about to go into default and so decided to use a convenient excuse to close up shop for a little while and save some money.

Im using the word 'theory' in the common usage sense and not in the scientific sense mind you.


Thats good because you're wrong. It's actually more expensive to shut down the government than keep it open. Counterintuitive? Yes, but we are talking about the government which does not have to abide by rationality.

The GOP are representatives of the American people

...now there's a scary thought...


Only because you have bought into cartoonish caricatures of what a American conservative is. This is why liberals are such bed-wetters, they're so susceptible to propaganda given their naiveté.

When should the USA stop increasing its debt mindlessly, if not now? Nearly $16 trillion and the liberals are still spending....
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (31) Oct 04, 2013
,... it is clear that gov is fiscally incompetent, yet the political left want the government to control another 6th of the economy. That is not rational.

A scientifically minded person would recognize evolutionary principals in 'free' market capitalism and wouldn't work counter to those natural forces, and would ensure that the budget is mathematically balanced, and that obsolete entities like the USPS is closed, .... yet it is conservatives who are "anti-science" according to the leftist propaganda machine and cartoonish caricatures spoon feed liberal bed wetters :).
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (14) Oct 04, 2013
The GOP are representatives of the American people

...now there's a scary thought...

The GOP is not representing their voters so voters demanded they begin to do so in 2010. As a result many 'liberal' republicans are losing and running scared from those who elected them to office.
"The shift comes as grassroots activists have re-framed the GOP's old "pro-business" stance into a "pro-free markets" positioning that eschews the kinds of corporate welfare and taxpayer-funded crony capitalism found in big government giveaways to industries that make hefty political contributions.

President Obama and Democrats have seized on the shift and have increased their already strong courting of corporate executives. On Wednesday, Obama held White House meetings with 14 top CEOs from some of America's biggest financial firms. "
http://www.breitb...Business
Democrats (fascists), party of crony capitalists.
VendicarE
2.2 / 5 (9) Oct 04, 2013
"Yea, and Republicans eat puppies too." - NumenTard

Not that I have heard. But I have heard repeated calls from Republicans for the imposition of economic policies that would cause the U.S. to enter into a decades long, grand economic depression.

Republicans have been quite open in their plans to destroy the national economy through their "Starve the beast" program of national economic sabotage.

"We need to manufacture an (economic) crisis in order to assure that there is no alternative to a smaller government." - Jeb Bush - Impress magazine 1995
VendicarE
2.1 / 5 (9) Oct 04, 2013
"The GOP is not representing their voters so voters demanded they begin to do so in 2010. As a result many 'liberal' republicans are losing and running scared from those who elected them to office." - RyggTard

This is true, and the result of the T-Party Treason was the mass defeat of the T-Party in the last election.

Republicans were soundly rejected by the American Public because of the idiocy of the T-Party ideology.

Your sick, moronic, ideology, TardieBoy.
VendicarE
1.9 / 5 (8) Oct 04, 2013
"On Wednesday, Obama held White House meetings with 14 top CEOs from some of America's biggest financial firms." - RyggTard

The horror..... The horror.....

How dare the president talk with industry leaders. How dare he.

VendicarE
2.1 / 5 (10) Oct 04, 2013
" it is clear that gov is fiscally incompetent," - Numentard

No. It is clear that Republicans are fiscally incompetent.

"A scientifically minded person would recognize evolutionary principals in 'free' market capitalism" - NumenTard

What market can be truly free without the freedom to employ and purchase the sexual services of children?

What market can be truly free without the freedom to own slaves?

What market can be truly free without the freedom to contract murders and beatings?

What market can be truly free and moral?

Clearly... None...

TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (7) Oct 04, 2013
more expensive to shut down the govt
While I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek with my comment I think some sense can be made of it. First off it depends on how long the shutdown lasts. And it depends on how creative admins get in which agencies they are shutting down and what services they are interrupting. It is a complex issue and I dont think its near as simplistic as you are inferring.

FEMA for instance is billions in the red. Do they need to operate continuously? What better way to demonstrate that they don't, than to shut them down for awhile and see what happens?

Both sides of the aisle can benefit by demonstrations of this nature. I can imagine that agencies all over are scrambling right now to show how vital it is that they remain in operation.

This is going on right now in detroit. Who didn't survive the Clinton/Gingrich shutdown? The Clinton admin erased the debt as I recall. Perhaps this is how it is done.
kochevnik
2.3 / 5 (9) Oct 04, 2013
"On Wednesday, Obama held White House meetings with 14 top CEOs from some of America's biggest financial firms." - RyggTard

The horror..... The horror.....

How dare the president talk with industry leaders. How dare he.

I thought that's what made ryggie's life worth living: The prospect of more kleptocracies being cemented in law. Wall Street began as a human stock market selling slaves for plantations. Nothing new, really
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (8) Oct 04, 2013
Did I say erased? I meant to say 'reduced'... In clintons own words:

"They believe those in the Republican Party, believe that they've talked a good game about balancing the budget, but the debt was quadrupled in the 12 years before I became president, and then we paid down the debt for four years, paid down $600 billion on the national debt, and then my budget was abandoned and they doubled the debt again."

-A man of impeccable character as I recall, who revitalized Mena AR by increasing commerce and the flow of goods considerably.
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (32) Oct 04, 2013
Well that would make Clinton a fiscal conservative,... which was convenient for him because the republicans swept into congressional control then.

You see there are liberal republicans and conservative democrats. I generally refer to 'conservatives' and 'liberals' for that reason.

"A scientifically minded person would recognize evolutionary principals in 'free' market capitalism" - Noumenon


What market can be truly free without the freedom to employ and purchase the sexual services of children?


Potato salad argument.
VendicarE
2.5 / 5 (10) Oct 04, 2013
"Well that would make Clinton a fiscal conservative,..." NumenTard

Well then, I must be a fiscal conservative myself. along with every other lLiberal I know.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (7) Oct 04, 2013
"Well that would make Clinton a fiscal conservative,..." NumenTard

Well then, I must be a fiscal conservative myself. along with every other lLiberal I know.
See I told you. You and ryggy are 2 sides of the same coin. The same anarchist bitcoin.

You both can have all the freedom you want when the machines take over.
VendicarE
2.7 / 5 (9) Oct 04, 2013
"You both can have all the freedom you want when the machines take over." - Otto

I know those robots. Nice people. Unlike RyggTard, they think logically, and abhor liars.

They will leave TardieBoy with a perpetually full diaper.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (17) Oct 04, 2013
The GOP are representatives of the American people

...now there's a scary thought...

Yes, it is:

"Lee: It was an all-out attack against Ted Cruz and me. It was unflattering, it was unfair, it was demeaning. It was demeaning to Senator Ted Cruz and to me, but more than anything it was demeaning to those who engaged in the attack."
"Ted Cruz and I spoke after the meeting and we both concluded we would both be fine with the American people hearing and seeing exactly what we said in that meeting. But we're pretty sure that most of our colleagues would be very uncomfortable, and downright embarrassed if their constituents saw the way they were behaving."
http://www.breitb...instCruz

Cruz and Lee, and a few others, are the only politicians working for their constituents.
Howhot
3.5 / 5 (8) Oct 04, 2013
@R2 say that; "Democrats (fascists), party of crony capitalists."

You must not know that UP is NOT DOWN and RIGHT is NOT LEFT and FASCIST is NOT DEMOCRAT. That is so typical of you fascist republican RINOs (your teaparty after-all, not republican) so your a RINO fascist along with the rest of the street sweepings that hate the USA.
Treasonous fascist like yourself will always lie or be contrary to what ever is the truth that you can't handle.

So the point must be, that you should go to walmart, buy lots of koch industry stuff and get out of out way why we try to do something good for a change.
VendicarE
2.7 / 5 (7) Oct 04, 2013
"Lee: It was an all-out attack against Ted Cruz and me. It was unflattering, it was unfair, it was demeaning. It was demeaning to Senator Ted Cruz and to me, but more than anything it was demeaning to those who engaged in the attack." - RyggTard

"Cruz was completely unapologetic about the ads that he is featured in on the Senate Conservatives Fund website that attack other Republicans. He sees himself as the only truly pure Republican. His colleagues are furious. He has no successful strategy but has managed to generate grass roots support for his position," one senior Republican source at Wednesday's meeting told CNN Chief Political Analyst Gloria Borger.

Ted Cruz gets pushback during closed-door meeting

http://politicalt...-page-1/
VendicarE
3.1 / 5 (9) Oct 04, 2013
"Cruz and Lee, and a few others, are the only politicians working for their constituents." - RyggTard

By pushing the American Economy down the toilet.

Cruz is working for his constituents, but his constituents are, like RyggTard, the enemies of America.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (15) Oct 04, 2013
Democrats (fascists), party of crony capitalists."

Soros, Buffet , ...
"Duke Energy and its CEO have been unequivocal supporters of the Obama administration's war on affordable energy. Rogers and Duke lobbied heavily for regulations, Cap and Trade, and "green" energy grants."
Forbes
"

Liberals typically ding Cuccinelli as too socially conservative, but the Democratic Governors Association today had a different knock on him: "The people of Virginia need a governor who will be business-friendly and focused on creating jobs and growing the economy…" they wrote.

This has been a theme throughout Cuccinelli's career: significant portions of the business lobby have turned against him, not because he's too pro-life, but because of his economic conservatism."
http://reason.com...ism-demo

ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (15) Oct 04, 2013
Cuccinelli's opponent in VA,

"McAuliffe, who helped Bill Clinton raise campaign cash by selling $100,000 sleepovers at the White House, was building a car company based on $500,000 "investments" from foreigners seeking to live in the United States. ""
"In China, the children and grandchildren of Communist China's revolutionary leaders, called "princelings," used their family and political connections to become the country's new robber barons and use political force to shut down critics. In America, political princelings such as McAuliffe are trying to copy that strategy."
http://www.humane...auliffe/
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Oct 04, 2013
"People are a little stunned that so much of the Wall Street corporate and financials sectors have rolled over so easily for the Obama administration, witness the dutiful manner in which all the major communications companies turned over their cellphone data without a whimper."
"Let's just cut to the chase and say that what we are seeing today is fascism, writ large, and not cronyism between government and the Big Business private sector. These corporations are not sucking up to the government (well, not entirely) so much as they all have a gun to their heads. And this is what all businesses and citizens will do once they have a gun to their heads as well."
"cronyism is the result of the private sector trying to create sweetheart relationships in government in order to get financial favors, usually contract preferences. Fascism is just the opposite, when it is the state with the come-hither glances and bedroom eyes, for an entirely different purpose."
Cronyism begets fascism.
VendicarE
2.6 / 5 (7) Oct 04, 2013
"This has been a theme throughout Cuccinelli's career: significant portions of the business lobby have turned against him, not because he's too pro-life, but because of his economic conservatism." - RyggTard

Yup, even American Capitalists can't stomach Bible Thumping, extremist Conservative Traitors.
VendicarE
2.9 / 5 (8) Oct 04, 2013
"witness the dutiful manner in which all the major communications companies turned over their cellphone data without a whimper." - RyggTard

I'm not sure how RyggTard expects them to wimper when the Bush Administration forced them under secret court order to not reveal anything about their legal obligation to be complicit with NSA spying.

RyggTard just ain't the brightest match in the box.
VendicarE
3.1 / 5 (9) Oct 04, 2013
"Let's just cut to the chase and say that what we are seeing today is fascism, writ large, and not cronyism between government and the Big Business private sector." - RyggTard

Reagan's crusade against free speech goes all the way back to his days as governor of California. After the protests at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in 1968 further protests sprang up on campuses across the country. Berkeley became a hotbed of student activity. One of the first things governor Reagan wished to curtail was the free speech of these student radicals and the Black Panthers whose national Headquarters happened to be near Berkeley.

Like his spiritual father McCarthy, Reagan quickly exaggerated the threat the campus radicals posed to society in an attempt to shut them up. Speaking of the radicals Reagan said, "Preservation of free speech does not justify letting beatniks and advocates of sexual orgies, drug usage, and 'filthy' speech disrupt the academic community."

CONT
VendicarE
2.9 / 5 (8) Oct 04, 2013
His next move was to appoint Edwin Meese III, then a hard-line anti-student county prosecutor as his chief of staff. Together the anti-free speech duo of Reagan and Meese waged war against campus radicals and their right to speak out.

http://rushsucks....eech.htm
VendicarE
3.1 / 5 (9) Oct 04, 2013
Ronald Reagan must be the nicest president who ever destroyed a union, tried to cut school lunch milk rations from six to four ounces, and compelled families in need of public help to first dispose of household goods in excess of $1,000...1f there is an authoritarian regime in the American future, Ronald Reagan is tailored to the image of a friendly fascist. - Robert Lekachman

The Truth About Republicans by George Carlin

http://www.youtub...yz4#t=26

All Republicans are liars.

http://www.youtub...MzMjXLJs
Howhot
2.4 / 5 (8) Oct 05, 2013
Vendi says,
The Truth About Republicans by George Carlin

http://www.youtub...yz4#t=26

All Republicans are liars.

http://www.youtub...MzMjXLJs



Isn't that the truth.
Jimee
3.1 / 5 (9) Oct 05, 2013
Hate, lies, and racism make a good republican.
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (29) Oct 05, 2013
@Jimee, Howhot, VendicarE, kocknivick

That you equate conservatives with Racists, Liars, Facists, Traitors, Moronic, and Haters, is emblematic of your own ignorance and desire to use false caricatures as a teddy-bear in soothing that ignorance. It's equivalent to adult thumb sucking. You see, you don't understand conservatives, so you manufacture a caricature, specifically designed according to your specifications, for the soul purpose of ensuring that even YOU can't lose to, in debate. In fact, the sheer over-the-top nature of your invention, is indicative of your overcompensation and low standards for which you hold yourself to.

What I would recommend in the future is to assume conservatives are intelligent and may have a rational point of view, and only then debate with humility and trepidation. This requires that you be honest with yourself first, for otherwise you won't have a chance of being honest with others.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (6) Oct 05, 2013
Hate, lies, and racism make a good republican.
Self-hatred, self-deception, and misanthropy make a typical liberal. Probably not but I thought I would offer a similar bigoted response to yours.
djr
4.4 / 5 (7) Oct 05, 2013
Noumenon: " You see, you don't understand conservatives"

I see the problem very differently than Noumenon. I think it is a lazy thinking problem - that is engaged in by all sides. It is easy to label yourself, and others. Then you don't have to deal with those pesky facts - you can just argue from the chosen perspective - let the ideology define your world view. I don't fit a specific label. I agree with the conservatives on fiscal and individual responsibility. I also agree on the issue of markets being better decision makers than centralized systems. But I also see the excesses that develop if markets are not monitored and regulated. I think humans are complex. It drives Ryggy and his pals nuts - cuz he can't pigeon hole me. It looks like our world may soon enter another great depression - and the politicians will be pointing across the divide - screaming 'it was their fault - blame them.' We can be so stupid! These threads can be a microcosm of said stupidity
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (27) Oct 05, 2013
@djr, Actually I agree with your post for the most part. I was refering above to the ad hominem arguments, and exagerated misrepresentations of an ideology.

While its true that one can let their ideology blind them to realities to the contrary, it is still inportant to have base principals that guide you.

I'm a libartarian because I recognize natural forces at play in 'free' market capitalism which are not only intrinsic to human egoistic nature but is the best mechanism for human progress.
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (27) Oct 05, 2013
,... and government can only work counter to these natural forces, can only weaken people by making them dependent, and facilitates the division of people between the 'victims' and the 'guilty'.

But I also see the excesses that develop if markets are not monitored and regulated.


The problem is, who defines "excesses". We elect people to office who make laws already, so why this additional subjective qualification? The existing world economy was not planned ahead of time. It wasn't regulated into existence. It is a living, breathing thing on its own.
Noumenon
3 / 5 (28) Oct 05, 2013
,... who's strength is not contingent upon government, but who's weakness usually is.

think it is a lazy thinking problem - that is engaged in by all sides. It is easy to label yourself, and others. Then you don't have to deal with those pesky facts - you can just argue from the chosen perspective


This is not very different from what I said above. Laziness in not understanding the supposed oppositions point of view. It's easier to construct a cartoon character or accept one ready made through propaganda.
djr
5 / 5 (3) Oct 05, 2013
Noumenon: "so why this additional subjective qualification?"

What qualification are you referring to? My point is that when left totally unregulated - markets can be very destructive. The owners of the coal mines in Britain were happy to send young children down the mines, often to meet an early death. It took regulation to introduce health and safety codes. The mine owners would not have done it voluntarily - they were happy to see workers as disposable.

djr
5 / 5 (3) Oct 05, 2013
Noumenon: "Laziness in not understanding the supposed oppositions point of view. "

I agree with that point - but think that you continue to sidestep the issue that goes along with it. If you say that all liberals are such and such (Ryggy et al do this constantly) - you are not addressing the facts - you are painting with a 12 inch brush - and being very lazy. It is very easy to talk in broad generalizations (free market capitalism is the only way to go), and to then not look at the details of the issue. Perhaps free markets are better at allocating resources than centralized systems, but there are also serious problems that can come up when you have unbridled markets - and these issues need to be looked at. Science is about facts - and yet so many make it about ideology. Look into the young earth creationists - and see how they construct ideology, and then see mold reality into their ideology. The politicians do the same thing - we may go over the cliff as a result.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (13) Oct 05, 2013
My point is that when left totally unregulated - markets can be very destructive.

Free markets ARE regulated by competition and customers.
That you equate conservatives with Racists, Liars, Facists, Traitors, Moronic, and Haters, is emblematic of your own ignorance and desire to use false caricatures as a teddy-bear in soothing that ignorance.


Why did FDR hijack the term 'liberal' to describe his version of socialism? Classical liberals, REAL liberals like Locke, Smith, Bastiat, Mises, Hayek and many others were quite intelligent and understood the nature of men and the need for a limited govt to protect individual rights, which the 'liberal'/'progressive'/socialists want to take away to control the individual.
Science is about facts - and yet so many make it about ideology./q]
So use facts back up your assertions about free markets. In Britain, it was the govt that sent orphans out to work in mills. Children with parents sent their children to school.
kochevnik
3.4 / 5 (5) Oct 06, 2013
My point is that when left totally unregulated - markets can be very destructive.

Free markets ARE regulated by competition and customers.
Adam Smith advocated a FREE MARKET, not a market free of REGULATION. A properly regulated market will be more free, not less. Regulation is a prerequisite for market freedom.

For example public banks are much more efficient than private banks. The latter are allowed to lose their money anywhere speculative like a movie star, causing global depressions
djr
5 / 5 (6) Oct 06, 2013
Free markets ARE regulated by competition and customers.

As usual - and as I pointed out in my recent post - idealogues like Ryggy cannot think - they only spout child like platitudes. I used a specific example - the example of mine owners who would see workers as a disposable cost. Ryggy does nothing to address the specifics of the situation mentioned. Who is John Galt Ryggy? Why don't you go live in your utopian free market, behind your walls - protected with your free market AK47's, made in your free market la la land? Let the poor die. They deserve to die right. They are poor. It is their own fault. Not your responsibility. You only have responsibility to your own club. Fuck the poor people - right Ryggy?
djr
5 / 5 (4) Oct 06, 2013
Kochevnik - " The latter are allowed to lose their money anywhere speculative like a movie star, causing global depressions"

Nice to see you understanding the real world - not hiding behind ideology - but willing to try to understand the complexities of the world we find ourselves in - refreshing.
meBigGuy
2.7 / 5 (9) Oct 06, 2013
It is called a free market because the rich and the corporations are free to exploit the vulnerable, and they will always do so. The only purpose of a well designed regulatory system is that this exploitation, driven by greed (and simple common sense since the vulnerable are easy to exploit) is not allowed to flourish. Unfortunately we see the rich and the corporations also exploiting the regulatory system, so it is a constant battle.
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (27) Oct 06, 2013
Perhaps free markets are better [...] than centralized systems, but there are also serious problems that can come up when you have unbridled markets - ...[....]...Science is about facts - and yet so many make it about ideology.


There are serious problems that can come up when you have unbridled freedom,... is another way of stating that. There is a cost to freedom, yes, but the answer is not unbridled regulation.

Science is about understanding core mechanisms (of natural law), and ideology is also about core principals. There are endless social statistical facts, scientifically accurate in the data mining process, for which a liberal-progressive could "justify" implementing unbridled regulation by social engineering.

The liberal-progressive is not scientifically minded though, ... because science analyses facts 'disinterestedly' and does not treat them as something to be "fixed", nor does it seek to work counter to natural forces intrinsic to human nature.
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (27) Oct 06, 2013
The greatest threat to personal liberty is the 'liberal progressive', the social engineer, and their army of statisticians.
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (27) Oct 06, 2013
Noumenon: "so why this additional subjective qualification?"

What qualification are you referring to? My point is that when left totally unregulated - markets can be very destructive. The owners of the coal mines in Britain were happy to send young children down the mines, often to meet an early death. It took regulation to introduce health and safety codes. The mine owners would not have done it voluntarily - they were happy to see workers as disposable.


It is not only a subjective qualification that 'mine owners were happy to send children to their possible deaths', it is patently false, ..... mine owners had no such control, except by the willingness of the workers to subject themselves to those conditions and risk.

Likewise, the oil companies have no power to cause AGW except only by the willingness of both deniers and believers, to create a market demand for that energy source.

No industry has caused more death than government control of human behavior.
kochevnik
3.3 / 5 (7) Oct 06, 2013
The greatest threat to personal liberty is the 'liberal progressive', the social engineer, and their army of statisticians.
Did your Somalian passport arrive?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (7) Oct 06, 2013
free markets are regulated by competition and customers
Perhaps, if free markets were ever possible, but they're not. Markets are run by clever businessmen who hire clever promoters to sell inferior goods to uninformed customers who have limited choices and little time to shop around.

These businessmen are more intelligent and educated than their typical customer. They know it is far easier to collude with their counterparts than to try to out-compete them. They will ALWAYS seek to cut corners and cheat because the one who does not, loses.

And losing is not an option for most who have families to feed. When pops swell and inflation ensues, competition intensifies and corruption becomes inevitable.

Markets abhor com
kochevnik
3.4 / 5 (8) Oct 06, 2013
It is not only a subjective qualification that 'mine owners were happy to send children to their possible deaths', it is patently false, ..... mine owners had no such control, except by the willingness of the workers to subject themselves to those conditions and risk.

Likewise, the oil companies have no power to cause AGW except only by the willingness of both deniers and believers, to create a market demand for that energy source.

No industry has caused more death than government control of human behavior.
Oh yes you evoke the libertarian theme of "blame the worker" rather than the regulate the plutocratic fat cat thriving on his crimes. By your standard all mafia kingpins are blameless
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (5) Oct 06, 2013
Markets abhor competition. Tribes ABHOR competition and will always try to eliminate them. And tribal law dictates that they do this by any means possible. Alls fair in love and war and the marketplace.
djr
4.8 / 5 (5) Oct 06, 2013
Noumenon: " it is patently false, "

No it is not. Of course the mine owners had such control. If I open a mine, and pay children to work in that mine, and watch them die in mining accidents that could be avoided with better safety controls - of course that is something I can control.

"No industry has caused more death than government control of human behavior."

A very strange statement indeed. How do you measure these issues? I would suspect that religion has caused more death - but I really don't know how you would measure such numbers.

It would seem to me that you are arguing for a total absence of all regulations. Is that accurate?
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (29) Oct 06, 2013
Let the poor die. [...]. It is their own fault. Not your responsibility. You only have responsibility to your own club. Fuck the poor people - right Ryggy


Ones moral character can be judged only on their personal charity, the giving away of their own money, ...... not in simply advocating the giving away of other peoples money. Charity requires helping voluntarily and personally by definition, and not by force or coercion. For this reason your moral political objection is not valid and irrelevent to the discussion.

There has to be consequences for not working hard, not competing, not improving one self, not offering value,... for being poor. We have evolved to feel pain for a reason, as a survival mechanism. If the liberals keep feeding you pain killer, soon you will be weakened to the point of dependency.

In some poor nations the act of institutionalized global aide has in effect domesticated the people, and made them into pets. The same occurs in welfare systems.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Oct 06, 2013
dj, you said your fellow Brits sent children into coal mines to die.
Back it up.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Oct 06, 2013
"Author Robert Hessen is one observer who has taken note of this historiographical mischief and has urged others to acknowledge the error. The parish apprentice children, he writes, "were sent into virtual slavery by a government body; they were deserted or orphaned pauper children who were legally under the custody of the poor-law officials in the parish, and who were bound by these officials into long terms of unpaid apprenticeship in return for bare subsistence." (5) Indeed, Hessen points out, the first Act in Britain which applied to factory children was passed to protect these very parish apprentices, not "free labour" children."
http://www.mackinac.org/3879
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (14) Oct 06, 2013
"It remains that capitalism is not a system of compulsion. The lack of physical force, in fact, is what distinguishes it from pre-capitalist, feudal times. When feudalism reigned, men, women, and children were indeed "sold" at auction, forced to work long hours at arduous manual labor, and compelled to toil under whatever conditions and for whatever compensation pleased their masters. This was the system of serfdom, and the deplorable system of parish apprenticeship was a remnant of Britain's feudal past."
"The emergence of capitalism was sparked by a desire of Englishmen to rid themselves of coercive economic arrangements. The free laborer increasingly supplanted the serf as capitalism blossomed. It is a gross and most unfortunate distortion of history for anyone to contend that capitalism or its industrialization was to blame for the agony of the apprentice children."
http://www.mackinac.org/3879
Of course it is a distortion socialists need to promote.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (14) Oct 06, 2013
"So it is that child labor was relieved of its worst attributes not by legislative fiat, but by the progressive march of an ever more productive, capitalist system. Child labor was virtually eliminated when, for the first time in history, the productivity of parents in free labor markets rose to the point that it was no longer economically necessary for children to work in order to survive. The emancipators and benefactors of children were not legislators or factory inspectors, but factory owners and financiers. Their efforts and investments in machinery led to a rise in real wages, to a growing abundance of goods at lower prices, and to an incomparable improvement in the general standard of living."
"The popular critique of child labor in industrial Britain is unwarranted, misdirected propaganda. The Hammonds and others should have focused on the activities of government, not capitalists, as the source of the children's plight. "
mackinac.org/3879
Brits are subjects, not citizen
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (15) Oct 06, 2013
Even Norway is turning away from socialism:
"Making the transition from a full-scale welfare state to a system which consistently rewards work more than public handouts will be a difficult one for Norway. Hopefully, the newly elected government will draw inspiration from the neighbor to the east."
"The difference between the more work-fare oriented Sweden and the more welfare oriented Norway are also seen in the number of hours worked. Swedes on average spend 14 percent more hours working than their neighbors to the west. (In fact, as my brother has shown, in terms of hours worked per working age adult, Sweden has recently even outpaced the US). Particularly young Norwegians are considered to have a notoriously weak working ethic, while Swedish workers are highly praised in Norway. "
" Norway has much to gain in bringing in more emphasis on individual responsibility and free markets in the traditional Social Democratic system."
http://www.newgeo...-breaks-
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (5) Oct 06, 2013
Ryggy and his pundits want us to believe that emancipation is some steady state phenomenon. Labor is a commodity like any other. When supply exceeds demand then people again are forced to suffer.

And it is NOT the marketplace which limits the potential for abuse as it has no natural means with which to do so; but instead a strong central govt, beholden to the will of the people, which can prevent corruption and abuse.
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (27) Oct 06, 2013
No industry has caused more death than government control of human behavior.


A very strange statement indeed. How do you measure these issues? I would suspect that religion has caused more death - but I really don't know how you would measure such numbers.


Thankfully history has recorded what happens when society is "planned" by government.

It would seem to me that you are arguing for a total absence of all regulations. Is that accurate?


Not in the present context, no. For example, if the government coerces conditions where lending standards are lowered, (so the poor can buy homes without proving their ability to save in putting 20% down), thus opening a sub-prime market, then regulations would seem appropriate. In a laissez-faire context, then yes.
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (27) Oct 06, 2013
No it is not. Of course the mine owners had such control. If I open a mine, and pay children to work in that mine, and watch them die in mining accidents that could be avoided with better safety controls - of course that is something I can control


Yes, and if you implemented better safety and conditions, you could attract better quality workers with better morale and thus better work ethic, reaping improved efficiency,.... as compared to your competition.

In any case, the mine owner is not responsible for personal decisions made by a worker. If workers refuse to work under given conditions, then that owner will have trouble finding quality workers and will fail.

As the general standard of living improved awareness of working conditions increased.
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (29) Oct 06, 2013
,... so its not that the evil coal mine owners were laughing while watching four year old workers crawl out of the mine with soot covered faces. Everything was relatively crude then in the way things were done in proportion to standard of living. The free market was/is the greatest force for the improvement of the human condition.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 06, 2013
"Through their embrace of and financial support for the state's regulatory regime, the oligarchs have made job creation in non tech-businesses—manufacturing, energy, agriculture—increasingly difficult through "green energy" initiatives that are also sure to boost already high utility costs. "
"The once huge California aerospace industry, centered in Los Angeles, employed hundreds of thousands, not only engineers but skilled technicians, assemblers, and administrators.

This picture has changed over the past decade. California's tech manufacturing sector has shrunk, and those employed in Silicon Valley are increasingly well-compensated programmers, engineers and marketers. There has been little growth in good-paying blue collar or even middle management jobs. "
http://www.newgeo...itude?23
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (29) Oct 06, 2013
free markets are regulated by competition and customers

Markets are run by clever businessmen who hire clever promoters to sell inferior goods to uninformed customers who have limited choices and little time to shop around.

It's the fault of businessmen that those particular consumers are ignorant? To buy your argument one would have to ignore the fact that quality products do in fact exist, and that consumers are morons for the most part, taken advantage of by evil businessmen.

Competition is about creating value, producing things people want. The best quality thing gets the most business. Basic and indisputable economics. Consumers are responsible for their own ignorance or lack of, not anyone else.
djr
4.4 / 5 (7) Oct 06, 2013
"so its not that the evil coal mine owners were laughing while watching four year old workers crawl out of the mine with soot covered faces."

It is that the rich mine owners were laughing all the way to bank - knowing that little children were dying to contribute to their mega wealth. It took a collaboration of organizations to break this situation.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (15) Oct 06, 2013
rich mine owners were laughing all the way to bank

Where is your data?
Socialists like dj like to revise history and take it out of context.
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (29) Oct 06, 2013
"so its not that the evil coal mine owners were laughing while watching four year old workers crawl out of the mine with soot covered faces."

It is that the rich mine owners were laughing all the way to bank - knowing that little children were dying to contribute to their mega wealth. It took a collaboration of organizations to break this situation.


It was in the best interest of the industry to improve itself. Ford consciously paid his workers more than his competition in order to reduce turn over and increase morale.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Oct 06, 2013
"so its not that the evil coal mine owners were laughing while watching four year old workers crawl out of the mine with soot covered faces."

It is that the rich mine owners were laughing all the way to bank - knowing that little children were dying to contribute to their mega wealth. It took a collaboration of organizations to break this situation.


It was in the best interest of the industry to improve itself. Ford deliberately paid is auto workers well by then standards, because he knew he had to create a class that could a-Ford his products.

And he could afford to do because of his innovations create profits. And he also understood the assembly line was a tedious, but important job.
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (28) Oct 06, 2013
"so its not that the evil coal mine owners were laughing while watching four year old workers crawl out of the mine with soot covered faces."

It is that the rich mine owners were laughing all the way to bank - knowing that little children were dying to contribute to their mega wealth. It took a collaboration of organizations to break this situation.


It was in the best interest of the industry to improve itself. Ford deliberately paid is auto workers well by then standards, because he knew he had to create a class that could a-Ford his products.

And he could afford to do because of his innovations create profits. And he also understood the assembly line was a tedious, but important job.


I have since edited the statement you quoted, because the left use it out of context in support of 'living wage policy'. Ford of course made decision which were in his companies best interest.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (15) Oct 06, 2013
Ford wasn't the only capitalists to pay his workers well and be attacked for it.
Hershey invented a process to mass produce milk chocolate lowing its cost and creating profits for him, his employees and the farmers of PA.
Hershey was very disappointed when unions horned there way in to leach off his employees.
And continues today:

"Hershey's Candy may leave Hershey PA. to avoid Union Oppression. "
http://yourdaddy....ression/
Neinsense99
2.3 / 5 (15) Oct 06, 2013
rich mine owners were laughing all the way to bank

Where is your data?
Socialists like dj like to revise history and take it out of context.

From the poster who repeatedly makes naked assertions, takes things out of contexts and quotes disreputable blogs and non-expert shill 'researchers' as sources. Puhlease!
Neinsense99
2.4 / 5 (14) Oct 06, 2013
It is called a free market because the rich and the corporations are free to exploit the vulnerable, and they will always do so. The only purpose of a well designed regulatory system is that this exploitation, driven by greed (and simple common sense since the vulnerable are easy to exploit) is not allowed to flourish. Unfortunately we see the rich and the corporations also exploiting the regulatory system, so it is a constant battle.

Another purpose is to foster an environment where innovation can have a decent chance of succeeding over patent trolls, harmful monopolies and the like. Neocons like to talk up innovation, but desire to solve problems is secondary to greed and self-interest.
Neinsense99
2 / 5 (12) Oct 06, 2013
The greatest threat to personal liberty is the 'liberal progressive', the social engineer, and their army of statisticians.
Did your Somalian passport arrive?

Perhaps there is a note on the door directing him to pick it up from a postal outlet at a mall in Nairobi.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (30) Oct 06, 2013
The greatest threat to personal liberty is the 'liberal progressive', the social engineer, and their army of statisticians.
Did your Somalian passport arrive?


I don't know what this response was supposed to mean.
VendicarE
2.8 / 5 (9) Oct 06, 2013
"I don't know" - NumenTard

Numentard is apparently unaware that government free Somalia - now free from the constraints of the evil that is government, is a Libertarian dream come true.

Somalia is a true Libertarian paradise. So why aren't Libertarians flocking to the place and setting up shop?

VendicarE
2.7 / 5 (9) Oct 06, 2013
Ford wasn't the only capitalists to pay his workers" - RyggTard

Is that why American's make less now in real terms then they did 30 years ago when Libertarians and Republicans started their war against America's middle class?

VendicarE
3.2 / 5 (9) Oct 06, 2013
"Hershey's Candy may leave Hershey PA. to avoid Union Oppression." - quotes RyggTard

RyggTard's quote comes from an 20 year old man who started his own ConservaTard blog with government money from the Bush Era.

But of course, there is no shortage of dumb as dirt Conservative Bloggers.

Here is another one....

http://www.misija...y/22/ufo
VendicarE
2.8 / 5 (9) Oct 06, 2013
"It's the fault of businessmen that those particular consumers are ignorant?" - NumenTard

Often... Yes. I was looking at a compressor/nailgun combo today from Campbell Hausfeld
compressor today. No where on the box anywhere dit tell you what the type of nail that could be used with the thing.

No where on the box did it tell you how much air it could produce at pressure.

Next I looked at a ceiling mounted florescent fixture and no where on the box did it tell you the length of the cord.

A friend of mind had the engine of his car destroyed when a clip that holds one of the cylinder valves broke and the valve dropped into it's engine cylinder while the engine was running. He was told that the clips are known to be defective.

Why did the automobile manufacturer choose to keep him ignorant of the defect?

Why has the processed food industry spent several hundred million dollars opposing laws that would require them to list what is in the food that they sell?

CONT
VendicarE
3 / 5 (8) Oct 06, 2013
Corporations profit primarily by keeping the consumer ignorant. Telling a customer that you have a soap that floats rather than telling them that you are blowing air into the product to increase your profit margins.

When did the U.S. automotive industry start telling it's customers that it's automotive bumpers were nothing but costly adornments made from plastic and styrofoam?

Keeping the Consumer ignorant is Job #1 for most companies.
VendicarE
3 / 5 (8) Oct 06, 2013
"It is not only a subjective qualification that 'mine owners were happy to send children to their possible deaths', it is patently false, ..... mine owners had no such control," - NumenTard
'
Are you saying that mine workers had no way to prevent themselves from hiring children? Or are you saying that marketplace provided the mine owners no means of making the mines safer?

Then it follows that the historians are correct, and that Government Fiat forced the mine owners to stop employing children, and Government Fiat forced them to improve the conditions in the mines.

Either way you have defeated the tenants of your own ideology.

ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (16) Oct 06, 2013
Somalia is not a state and no passport is required.

innovation can have a decent chance of succeeding

desire to solve problems is secondary to greed and self-interest.

If self-interest was not protected there would be no innovation.

China invented many things before the west, but the Emperor (govt) controlled all and no one had motivation to innovate. The only motivation for the peasants was to study to be a bureaucrat for the empire.
Neinsense99
2 / 5 (12) Oct 06, 2013
"It is not only a subjective qualification that 'mine owners were happy to send children to their possible deaths', it is patently false, ..... mine owners had no such control," - NumenTard
'
Are you saying that mine workers had no way to prevent themselves from hiring children? Or are you saying that marketplace provided the mine owners no means of making the mines safer?

Then it follows that the historians are correct, and that Government Fiat forced the mine owners to stop employing children, and Government Fiat forced them to improve the conditions in the mines.

Either way you have defeated the tenants of your own ideology.


Vendicar, you probably meant to type tenets, not tenants. The former are principles or core beliefs, the latter rent or reside. http://grammarist...t-tenet/
Neinsense99
1.9 / 5 (13) Oct 06, 2013
Somalia is not a state and no passport is required.

innovation can have a decent chance of succeeding

desire to solve problems is secondary to greed and self-interest.

If self-interest was not protected there would be no innovation.

China invented many things before the west, but the Emperor (govt) controlled all and no one had motivation to innovate. The only motivation for the peasants was to study to be a bureaucrat for the empire.

Master Rygg, I beg of you, do not perturb our delicate sensibilities with so much cultural nuance. We mere mortals are not such esteemed professors of East Asian Studies as you are, noble sir. Your manifold areas of expertise overwhelm us with their abundance and profundity.
Neinsense99
2.1 / 5 (14) Oct 06, 2013
Hate, lies, and racism make a good republican.

It was not always that way, but you are essential correct these days. The extremists have gerrymandered and propagandized their way into positions where they can mobilize enough uncritical voters that they can undermine moderate Republicans who might occasionally think of the good of the nation.
evropej
2.3 / 5 (9) Oct 06, 2013
I predict in 2014, people will blame republicans for the healthcare tax just as they blame them now for shutting down key aspects of the American society which made this a great country.
djr
5 / 5 (6) Oct 06, 2013
Ryggy: " where is your data?"

You need data to support the idea that coal mines were owned by rich industrialists in the Victorian era - and that the workers in said mines were looked upon as expendable. Well obviously you know as little about the industrial revolution as you do about the Greeks and the Romans. Recently you stated that the Greeks and the Romans made no technical contributions to our world. Numerous posters laughed you out of town. You are in idiot.

If any other posters are interested in the subject - there is a wealth of information available at the tip of your google fingers. This is a neat chapter - http://ehistory.o...boys.cfm
VendicarE
1.7 / 5 (6) Oct 06, 2013
Demanding data that supports common knowledge is a common delaying tactic used by Libertarians and other extremist conservatives.

Water is wet? Where is your data?

Gravity causes things to fall? You have no proof of that.

Blue is the color blue? Can you provide a medical study that proves the relationship?

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Vermin.
VendicarE
2.1 / 5 (7) Oct 06, 2013
"Somalia is not a state" - RyggTard

(The FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF Somalia is a country located in the Horn of Africa. It is bordered by Ethiopia to the west, Djibouti to the northwest, the Gulf of Aden to the north, the Indian Ocean to the east, and Kenya to the southwest.)

http://en.wikiped.../Somalia

RyggTard and his Randite/Libertarian brothers in crime plan to do to America what has been done to the Libertarian paradise nation of Somalia.
VendicarE
2.5 / 5 (8) Oct 06, 2013
"It is not only a subjective qualification that 'mine owners were happy to send children to their possible deaths', it is patently false, ..... mine owners had no such control," - NumenTard

Are you saying that mine workers had no way to prevent themselves from hiring children? Or are you saying that marketplace provided the mine owners no means of making the mines safer?

Either way, it follows that the historians are correct, and that Government Fiat forced the mine owners to stop employing children, and Government Fiat forced them to improve the conditions in the mines.

Either way you have defeated the tenets of your own ideology.

ubavontuba
2.1 / 5 (15) Oct 07, 2013
"It is not only a subjective qualification that 'mine owners were happy to send children to their possible deaths', it is patently false, ..... mine owners had no such control," - NumenTard

Are you saying that mine workers had no way to prevent themselves from hiring children? Or are you saying that marketplace provided the mine owners no means of making the mines safer?

Either way, it follows that the historians are correct, and that Government Fiat forced the mine owners to stop employing children, and Government Fiat forced them to improve the conditions in the mines.

Either way you have defeated the tenets of your own ideology.
Remarkable... for once, I agree with VendicarE.

History teaches us unregulated and lightly regulated markets are inherently dangerous.

I mean they didn't call the Wild West "wild" because it was full of socially conscious entrepreneurs...

VendicarE
1.6 / 5 (7) Oct 07, 2013
UbVonTard apparently has periods of Lucidity.

Perhaps his medication works from time to time.

I give his medication a 5.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (15) Oct 07, 2013
History teaches us unregulated and lightly regulated markets are inherently dangerous.

What history is this?
The 'wild' west was not that wild.
Greeks and the Romans made no technical contributions to our world.

No, I did not. What I asked why didn't the Greeks or Romans or Egyptians or Chinese have an industrial revolution leading to nuclear energy and space travel?
The extremists have gerrymandered and propagandized their way into positions where they can mobilize enough uncritical voters

Like 'liberals', NEA members, illegal aliens, ....? 'Liberals' have controlled gerrymandered districts for decades leading to the socialism we have today.
VendicarE
2.7 / 5 (9) Oct 07, 2013
"What history is this?" - RyggTard

The history of man of course, and not the imaginary history of planet ConservaTard that you are familiar with.

"The 'wild' west was not that wild" - RyggTard

It was wild enough to murder 8 million Native Americans and how many million Chinese immigrants?

"What I asked why didn't the Greeks or Romans or Egyptians or Chinese have an industrial revolution" - RyggTard

They were too busy inventing steel to invent the transistor.

Why did Christians invent the dark era?

"Like 'liberals', NEA members, illegal aliens, ....?" - RyggTard

RyggTard demands free markets for corporations, but demands a closed market for citizenship.

He is a Libertarian/Randite Statist who, doesn't want any more of those dirty Mexicans in HIS country.

What a lowlife.
djr
5 / 5 (3) Oct 07, 2013
Ryggy :"No, I did not. What I asked why didn't the Greeks or Romans or Egyptians or Chinese have an industrial revolution leading to nuclear energy and space travel?

No you did not - liar. You stipulated that the Greeks and the Romans did not make any contribution technologically to our world. Other posters pointed out the math advances of the Greeks, and I talked about Roman metalurgy, and their ability to build very high quality roads. You were laughed out of town for being an idiot. I don't think that stupidity is against your religion - but lying certainly is - liar.
VendicarE
1.6 / 5 (5) Oct 07, 2013
What good is a wheel if there are no roads to roll it on?

Self Proclaimed FreeThinker... RyggTard remains perpetually clueless.

He demands freedom - freedom to invent his own facts.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 07, 2013
You stipulated that the Greeks and the Romans did not make any contribution technologically to our world.


I never said that because I don't believe it.
I have asked why the Greeks or Romans never advanced to create the technology we have today. Why didn't the Romans land on the moon 1000 years ago?
sirchick
5 / 5 (2) Oct 07, 2013
I've never been told USA was the place to go for science during my generation of studying... everyone seems to rate Europe as the best place to be.

Given there is the ITER the LHC going on here. For physics i don't see why you would go any where else at the moment.
djr
5 / 5 (4) Oct 07, 2013
Ryggy: "I never said that because I don't believe it."

Read it and weep liar - I took the time to hunt back and find your words.

"The Greeks and Romans were educated yet they made little technological progress."

From http://phys.org/n...ans.html

Comment made by you on Sept. 20th
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 07, 2013
Ryggy: "I never said that because I don't believe it."

Read it and weep liar - I took the time to hunt back and find your words.

"The Greeks and Romans were educated yet they made little technological progress."

From http://phys.org/n...ans.html

Comment made by you on Sept. 20th

What I said is NOT what YOU said I said:
"You stipulated that the Greeks and the Romans did not make any contribution technologically to our world."

As I said, they did NOT make much technological progress. They rode horses, fought with swords, did not have electricity, used wind to power their ships,... which is not much different than Europe ~1000 years later.
My question still remains, why didn't the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Persians, Indians, Chinese ....create the world we have today...when they were ruling the world thousands of years ago.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 07, 2013
From that thread:

My comments:
"Why didn't the Egyptians, Sumerians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, ....invent the printing press?
Why was Gutenberg successful and why was one of the most popular books printed a Bible?"

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp]http://phys.org/n...html#jCp[/url]
"Why didn't Rome develop modern science?
Why didn't Rome end slavery?
Pick any 500 year period in history and compare with 1500-2000. Why didn't the progress made from 1500-2000 occur 3000 years ago? The natural resources were the same."

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp]http://phys.org/n...html#jCp[/url]
PeterParker
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 07, 2013
"Why didn't the Romans land on the moon 1000 years ago?"

They were too busy creating the flush toilet.

Why didn't you land on the moon 30 years ago?

Was dat evils gubderment stopping you from making your vacuum cleaner powered rocket motor?

Moron...
djr
5 / 5 (3) Oct 07, 2013
Ryggy - I was going from memorty - yes I used the word any, and you actually used the word little. Your point was wrong. The Greeks and the Romans made much technological progress. Here educate yourself - http://en.wikiped...chnology

My more general point is that you are a moron. Others on this site agree - and often express such. Yet - you insist on spamming the site - and turning it into a forum for your own - ill informed - ideological platform. Then when you are called on precisely how ill informed you actually are - you resort to lying - and then hair splitting with your defense. You sound a lot like Uba. Let's take an example of your ignorant clap trap. "Why didn't Rome develop modern science?" That is a question that is very obvious to me. The answer is because progress is somewhat linear - and the foundation was not yet in place. Just like the Renaisance folks did not develop the transistor. cont.
djr
5 / 5 (4) Oct 07, 2013
cont. - My more general point is that this is a web site to celebrate science. And we constantly have to be discouraged by ass hats like yourself - who think you know everything - who hate science - and who constantly want to turn this site into your own ideological platform. I would just wish that you would shut up - enjoy the science - and learn. If you don't like science - that is fine - fuck off - and go read Whatsupwiththat. Do you understand the point?
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (9) Oct 07, 2013
I have several open questions to anyone willing to answer;

How much is too much public debt?

Indeed can there be too much debt?

How much taxation is too much?

Indeed can there be too much taxation?

Given its track record on Medicare, Social Security, Public Education etc, how EXACTLY will the government manage healthcare better than the private sector?

Given that the country has, by historical standards, a MAMMOTH bureaucracy and government regulating it how is more of the same going to fix things? Isn't the definition of insanity continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result?

And now I'll quit asking how blue the sky is and listen to people continue (quite entertainingly) to insist it's green...
djr
5 / 5 (2) Oct 07, 2013
Modernmystic - I would like to add a couple of questions to your very interesting list.

How big a military is too big?

Why is education and science less important than killing people?

Thanks.
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (10) Oct 07, 2013
Modernmystic - I would like to add a couple of questions to your very interesting list.

How big a military is too big?


Well one with TEN aircraft carriers in a world where the greatest threats come from horribly ignorant people mired in a very unfortunate world view getting hold of plutonium and building a bomb I'd say America's is WAAAAAY too big. Just my opinion.

Why is education and science less important than killing people?


Is it? Why do people assume their own premises into questions when having a discussion...oh that's right that's not HAVING a discussion that's called hyperbole....
djr
5 / 5 (3) Oct 07, 2013
I'd say America's is WAAAAAY too big. Just my opinion

Full agreement.

"Is it?"

Have you seen the numbers - comparing our defense/security budget with our science and education budget?

"Why do people assume their own premises into questions "

Is that not exactly what you were doing with this kind of question?

"Given its track record on Medicare, Social Security, Public Education etc, how EXACTLY will the government manage healthcare better than the private sector?"
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Oct 07, 2013
Your point was wrong. The Greeks and the Romans made much technological progress.

Everyone makes excuses for why human progress was so slow for so long. Or why DID the West make so much progress so fast while so many civilizations did not.
Rome led the world for over 500 years and the best they could do is produce a flush toilet?
Indeed can there be too much taxation?

Indeed can there be too much debt?

Yes.

this is a web site to celebrate science.

Celebrate? 'Celebrating' science demands vigorous debate and rigorous data collection and analysis.
If the US doesn't have an aircraft carrier with its F/A 18s ready to protect the sea lanes and project power, the Russians, or Chinese will.
Without seapower, the Great Britain would not be so great as to stop slave trading in the 19th century.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 07, 2013
"Why didn't Rome develop modern science?" That is a question that is very obvious to me. The answer is because progress is somewhat linear -


They why has progress been very NON-linear the past 500 years?
One answer has been the printing press, but the Chinese had invented the press hundreds of years before.
But then dj and other's don't really want to admit to the answer, state power.
Emperor's, kings, Caesar's had to keep people oppressed, stifle innovation to stay in power. Just as the current socialist regimes do today.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 07, 2013
The real problem with economies is the inflation of fiat currency to finance more public debt. Rome used to shave coins to inflate their money.
Many coins have serrated edges to prevent shaving, but this was when the coins were made of Ag or Au.
Govts like Detroit go bankrupt when they have plundered all the wealth under their jurisdiction.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 07, 2013
"High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com...h59sCA00

"As the world's largest economy and an issuer of the world's major reserve currency, it is important that the US take credible steps to address its dispute over the debt ceiling in a timely fashion and avoid a default."

Of course the USA is not permitted Constitutionally to default of any of its debt. Which means that current revenues must be used to pay the bills and govt spending must fall.
That's how Coolidge boosted the economy in the 20s, he cut govt spending.
Politicians KNOW what is needed but few have the courage to do it.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 07, 2013
When the state punishes innovation and growth and rewards people for not earning, the money runs out.
"Steve Kroft reports on the alarming state of the federal disability program, which has exploded in size in the last six years and could become the first federal benefits program to run out of money."
http://www.cbsnew...ity-usa/
What happened to CBS?
Even Norway and Sweden have been close to hitting the wall and have pulled back on their socialism.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 07, 2013
" Congressman Brooks said, "This debate is not between Republicans and Democrats. It is between those who are financially responsible and have the understanding and backbone needed to prevent an American bankruptcy, and those who do not. This political battle will affect America's future for decades and centuries to come."

Brooks continued, "As bad as government shutdown and debt ceiling risks may be, they are relatively inconsequential compared to the economic devastation resulting from an American bankruptcy."

Brooks concluded, "History proves shutdowns can be overcome, but a debilitating bankruptcy can destroy the America our ancestors took centuries to build."
http://brooks.hou...ibility/
ubavontuba
1 / 5 (12) Oct 07, 2013
History teaches us unregulated and lightly regulated markets are inherently dangerous.
What history is this?
The 'wild' west was not that wild.
Apparently, you know very little of history then.

The Wild West was full of entrepreneurs. Everything from big business railroad companies, to individual miners. They raped the land and killed minorities and the indigenous populations with impunity (not to mention killing each other, as well).

djr
5 / 5 (3) Oct 07, 2013
I asked Ryggy "If you don't like science - that is fine - fuck off - and go read Whatsupwiththat. Do you understand the point?"

Silly me - the answer of course is "No - I don't understand your point"

Howhot
3.7 / 5 (6) Oct 07, 2013
It is amazing! Amazing how many poo heads are born into the world and how many will post here.

"That you equate conservatives with Racists, Liars, Facists, Traitors, Moronic, and Haters, is emblematic of your own ignorance and desire to use false caricatures as a teddy-bear in soothing that ignorance."

The ironic part; the republicans are full of irony! Conservatives *ARE* Racists, Liars, Facists, Traitors, Moronic, and Hater all of the time, unless it's something patriotic or something blessed by a southern baptist minister. You have to ask, what else have they done for you? What else have republicans done that is positive for society? They don't make #jobs, they don't improve the #economy, they just suck of the marrow and complain about how freaking liberalism is!

The most ironic of twists is; I've never seen a republicans/conservative/teaparty government do anything right with people, or improve anything economically. Their ego's are another matter.

ubavontuba
1.3 / 5 (14) Oct 07, 2013
The most ironic of twists is; I've never seen a republicans/conservative/teaparty government do anything right with people, or improve anything economically. Their ego's are another matter.
Sadly, this is too true. They've become the party of; "No." They apparently have nothing to offer ...no programs, no improvements, no dreams for America. Except for their belligerence, they are all but irrelevant.
Modernmystic
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 08, 2013
Have you seen the numbers - comparing our defense/security budget with our science and education budget?


Yes..and...?

"Why do people assume their own premises into questions "


Is that not exactly what you were doing with this kind of question?

"Given its track record on Medicare, Social Security, Public Education etc, how EXACTLY will the government manage healthcare better than the private sector?"


No, it's clear to me at least that;

1. The US government's track record on managing those large social programs is ABYSMAL.
2. The private sector's track record (when they're allowed to manage such programs) is far better when looking at raw outcomes.

If you don't agree with me on that then there is little point in discussing the matter because we simply have no common point of reference in reality.
Modernmystic
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 08, 2013
Sadly, this is too true. They've become the party of; "No." They apparently have nothing to offer ...no programs, no improvements, no dreams for America. Except for their belligerence, they are all but irrelevant.


If I went to a medical clinic and the procedures being offered were;

1. Leg breaking
2. Arm twisting
3. Head bashing

I think I'd be the "party of no" as well....
Noumenon
3 / 5 (26) Oct 08, 2013
The ironic part; the republicans are full of irony! Conservatives *ARE* Racists, Liars, Facists, Traitors, Moronic, and Hater all of the time, unless it's something patriotic or something blessed by a southern baptist minister. You have to ask, what else have they done for you? What else have republicans done that is positive for society? They don't make #jobs, they don't improve the #economy, they just suck of the marrow and complain about how freaking liberalism is!

The most ironic of twists is; I've never seen a republicans/conservative/teaparty government do anything right with people, or improve anything economically.


Thank you for that display of ignorance, it is precisely what motivated my post, and you have managed to justify it even further.
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (27) Oct 08, 2013
I've never seen a republicans/conservative/teaparty government do anything right with people, or improve anything economically. Their ego's are another matter.
Sadly, this is too true. They've become the party of; "No." They apparently have nothing to offer ...no programs, no improvements, no dreams for America. Except for their belligerence, they are all but irrelevant.


It is because you two don't understand the conservative point of view, precisely as I cited in that post you quoted.

What conservatives have to offer is the private sector and liberty, freedom from government intrusiveness. The economy is generated by the private sector, capitalism, not government. If you are looking for hand-outs and government programs that give free stuff, that increase disability and welfare claims to crisis levels and make people dependent rather than contributing to the economy, then naturally you will not see conservatives around,.. if that is where you look for them.
djr
5 / 5 (3) Oct 08, 2013
Modernmystic - yes you were assuming your own premises into the argument - I am not saying that is wrong - but don't disallow me from doing something that you do yourself - that is stupid.

"The US government's track record on managing those large social programs is ABYSMAL."

I actually agree with you that government is very inept at organizing stuff. However - I am not naive like you in then believing that private business is not also problematic. A case I often use here is the wealthy coal mine owners who would employ young children down the mines. It took a coalition of organizations to end that practice - the mine owners were willing to watch little children die for their profit. My father in law is an arch conservative - but you better not suggest touching his medicare, VA benefits, or SS - so I see a lot of hypocrisy in the conservative movement. I also see Republicans who are willing to take everything I have worked for away - over ideology - fucking sick.....
djr
5 / 5 (3) Oct 08, 2013
modernmystic 2. The private sector's track record (when they're allowed to manage such programs) is far better when looking at raw outcomes.

I think that is debatable. We have a technically excellent medical system here in the U.S. - but 50 million Americans do not have insurance - http://www.cnn.co...dex.html

So is the American system the best in the world? I would argue no - that there are examples of systems that may not be quite as technically advanced - but that cover every citizen - that in my opinion makes them a better system. I would look to European countries such as Norway, Sweden etc. for such examples.

I would agree with you that we have different realities - and that conversing is a waste of time. I am happy to not talk to you - and to just take up a role on physorg of calling bullshit when I see bullshit.
kochevnik
3.7 / 5 (6) Oct 08, 2013
What conservatives have to offer is the private sector and liberty, freedom from government intrusiveness.
What conservatives offer is what Hitler offered: the fusion of corporation, state and church to create a fascist empire

The economy is generated by the private sector, capitalism, not government.
Capitalism without government is called mafia
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (14) Oct 08, 2013
They raped the land and killed minorities and the indigenous populations with impunity

Never lived out west have you.
What conservatives offer is what Hitler offered:

Hitler was a socialist forcing industry to do his bidding, just as Google and the medical industry must to do, BHO's bidding.
government is very inept at organizing stuff.

Churches and mutual aid societies are much better. But atheists demand the end of religion and the societal cohesion they provide.All that remains is the state.
They've become the party of; "No."

Yes, the democrats have said NO negotiating our socialist policies.BHO did not win by much of a majority, and neither did the Senate. And the Senate added Cruz, a conservative in 2012.
More state legislatures and governors were picked up by republicans, some conservatives.
Soon the states will have the 2/3rds and 3/4th majority to amend the Constitution without Congress or the President.
Modernmystic
1.4 / 5 (9) Oct 08, 2013
I am not naive like you in then believing that private business is not also problematic.


Neither am I. It's an axiom of LIFE that you're going to have problems, it isn't axiomatic as to which kind you're going to have. Some people prefer private sector problems other public sector.

Please stop assuming my position, it will help us communicate better, and indeed improve your communication across the broad spectrum of your daily interactions with people.

A case I often use here is the wealthy coal mine owners who would employ young children down the mines. It took a coalition of organizations to end that practice - the mine owners were willing to watch little children die for their profit.


So instead they died of starvation? Or did some other work equally dangerous somewhere else? The modern market economy didn't invent poverty it was inherited...

To be CLEAR, I'm not for child labor, I just know it ISN'T AS SIMPLISTIC as your self righteous sermon makes it out....
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (14) Oct 08, 2013
They've become the party of; "No.

"He (BHO) repeated that he won't cut deals with conservatives -- because he thinks it would set a bad "precedent"

Read more: http://www.realcl...h9Dgw1HB
Follow us: @RCP_Articles on Twitter
Modernmystic
1.4 / 5 (9) Oct 08, 2013
I also see Republicans who are willing to take everything I have worked for away - over ideology - fucking sick.....


They'd say the same about you too you know. I suggest you find a republican and TALK about it instead of yelling past each other to make sure the points that have been discussed a THOUSAND times are really really REALLY heard...because we need more of that....

I think that is debatable.


It depends on what you mean by that. The facts aren't debatable, values are.

We have a technically excellent medical system here in the U.S. - but 50 million Americans do not have insurance'


Your assumption (assuming again) is they will be with the AMA?

So is the American system the best in the world? I would argue no.


It all depends on your values, base assumptions, and fictive premises you start with. And yes I have them too, we ALL do, some of us recognize this fact, others assume these things AS facts and are oblivious.

Modernmystic
1 / 5 (7) Oct 08, 2013
and to just take up a role on physorg of calling bullshit when I see bullshit.


Well I wouldn't put it in those terms at all, but basically that's my idea as well :)
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (8) Oct 08, 2013
What conservatives offer is what Hitler offered: the fusion of corporation, state and church to create a fascist empire


That's what you think they're offering. They think you're offering the fusion of corporation and state (state run economy) and the obliteration of church to create a communist empire.

Now are either of you accurate?

Capitalism without government is called mafia


No that's what you call mafia. 99% of English speakers call anything without government anarchy. They call people operating a shadow economy outside the bounds of the free market mafia...

Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (25) Oct 08, 2013
wealthy coal mine owners who would employ young children down the mines. It took a coalition of organizations to end that practice - the mine owners were willing to watch little children die for their profit.


Why should the mine owners of that time, have more concern than the parents of those children, who evidently watched their own children die for their own profit?

The modern mining industry itself, has since increased safety and efficiency as much as can be expected in that inherently dangerous occupation, not on account of the government, but because it is in THEIR best interest to do so.
Noumenon
3 / 5 (26) Oct 08, 2013
My father in law is an arch conservative - but you better not suggest touching his medicare, VA benefits, or SS - so I see a lot of hypocrisy in the conservative movement.


That you would equate his acceptance of benefits he is entitled to with conservative hypocrisy, is indicative your personal ignorance of what a conservative even is.

It is cartoonish to maintain that Conservatism = No Government.

A conservative would point out the fact of inevitability of fiscal insolvency of those government programs and make proposals for correcting them, preferably wrt the private market, but not necessarily to abolish them outright.
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (27) Oct 08, 2013
The private sector's track record [...] is far better when looking at raw outcomes.


I think that is debatable. We have a technically excellent medical system here in the U.S. - but 50 million Americans do not have insurance [..] So is the American system the best in the world? I would argue no - that there are examples of systems that may not be quite as technically advanced - but that cover every citizen - that in my opinion makes them a better system.


-No it does not. As a Canadian, I can tell you gov controlled health care is not better. It is not better to have to wait eight months for knee surgery for example.

-No American, insured or not, is ever turned away when they require medical care.

-It was not necessary for the government to take over the entire health care system. Laws could have been passed piece-meal to reform health care instead,... remove restrictions of insurance companies competing across state borders for example, etc.
kochevnik
2 / 5 (4) Oct 08, 2013
What conservatives offer is what Hitler offered: the fusion of corporation, state and church to create a fascist empire


That's what you think they're offering. They think you're offering the fusion of corporation and state (state run economy) and the obliteration of church to create a communist empire.

Communism is a far-right effort to impose the austerity of the Catholic Church upon secular society. That's why Jesuits invented communism in Paraguay then sought financial backing from the Rothschilds to impose their experiment upon a susceptible country

Communism is 100% religion. The atheism aspect was simply to displace gawd for the power of the state and leave a vacuum to fill. Bolshevism is simply Judaism for government officials and austerity for the unconnected. Two Abrahamic religions cooperate to impose fascism
VendicarE
2.1 / 5 (7) Oct 08, 2013
The most ironic of twists is; I've never seen a republicans/conservative/teaparty government do anything right with people, or improve anything economically.

There hasn't been a single neo-conservative/Libertarian derived policy in the last 40 years that hasn't been a complete disaster for the American People.
VendicarE
2.4 / 5 (8) Oct 08, 2013
"What conservatives have to offer is the private sector and liberty, freedom from government intrusiveness." - NumenTard

Is that why Conservative George Bush started the NSA spying on the American people, logging their telephone contacts, email's, and every address they send mail to?

Is freedom from government intrusiveness the reason why Conservatives are doing their best to make abortion unavailable to women?

Do private sector Troll roads make people more free? Or do they restrict their movements by imposing a direct fee on their movement.

How does the Conservative opposition to network neutrality - the free movement of information across the internet - promote freedom?

And on and on the Conservative assault on personal liberty and freedom and liberty goes.

VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (9) Oct 08, 2013
What conservatives have to offer, is nothing but corruption, ignorance, deceit, hate, immorality, treason and continuous ideological failure.

The only good conservative, is a dead conservative.
VendicarE
1.9 / 5 (7) Oct 08, 2013
What American Capitalism has done to the American People

US adults are dumber than the average human

http://nypost.com...e-human/
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Oct 08, 2013
our assumption (assuming again) is they will be with the AMA?

The American Medical Association, which have a minority membership of physicians, forced the closure of hospitals operated by mutual aid societies decades ago.
Another example of the 'progressive'/statist take over of society.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (14) Oct 08, 2013
"In an emergency, the president can certainly act to prevent a default, and thus uphold the constitutional mandate. Indeed, he would be violating his oath of office not to.

Default is nothing more than a failure to pay the interest and principal due on a debt in a timely manner. According to figures in a Power Line post, right now the government is spending about $17 billion every business day. It takes in about $14 billion in revenues. Thus it needs to borrow about $3 billion every business day to make up the difference.

A failure to raise the debt ceiling would prevent the government from borrowing that money. But it would not prevent the government from paying the interest on the debt, which amounts to only about 8 percent of revenues. Nor would it prevent the government from rolling over existing debt, which it does routinely.

What it would have to do is prioritize what bills it pays, leaving some unpaid. "
http://www.commen...default-
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (28) Oct 08, 2013
What American Capitalism has done to the American People

US adults are dumber than the average human

http://nypost.com...e-human/


Your dishonesty knows no bounds. The results of that study are in direct proportion to the abysmal failure of government sponsored and unionized public education, and the rise of the welfare state,... both of which are promoted by the left. It has absolutely zero to do with American capitalism.

That you are anti-capitalism and anti-corporation, makes you a hypocrite if held to the same logical standards you hold Rand to wrt SS. It also makes you entirely irreverent in American society. Have you left yet, or are you still here mooching off of the American Capitalist economy?
VendicarE
2.4 / 5 (8) Oct 08, 2013
"The results of that study are in direct proportion to the abysmal failure of government sponsored and unionized public education," - NumenTard

And yet the government sponsored and unionized public education systems of Europe and the Socialist Pacific Rim nations are the eduation systems that America is losing to.

The socialist states have been outperforming America in every measure since Reagan took power and started the Conservative War on the U.S. middle class.

VendicarE
2.1 / 5 (7) Oct 08, 2013
"That you are anti-capitalism and anti-corporation, makes you a hypocrite if held to the same logical standards you hold Rand to wrt SS." - NumenTard

I am neither an anti-capitalist or anti-corporation. I am simply anti-stupidity, which also immediately makes me anti-NumenTard.

It is self evident that corporations must be heavily regulated and managed by the people in order for corporate corruption against the interests of the people to be minimized.

The principle failure in America is a direct result of a dramatic increase in the corporate slavery endured by the American people since the mid 1950's.

Corporate Slavery promoted and cultured by Randite, Libertarian, and Conservative political groups in America.
VendicarE
2.1 / 5 (7) Oct 08, 2013
"Have you left yet, or are you still here mooching off of the American Capitalist economy?" - NumenTard

As I have said repeatedly, I left the failing American state years ago when it became obvious that Republican (all tratiors) were planning to destroy the country.

VendicarE
2.4 / 5 (8) Oct 08, 2013
It is laughable that NumenTard blames socialism for the inferior performance of Americans in every category measurable, compared to their socialist counterparts in almost every other nation.

To a logical person, if Socialism was the problem then the performance in the more socialist states would be worse. Yet the exact opposite is seen. In general, the more a state follows the American Capitalist model, the worse it performs.

This pattern has not changed in the last 40 years, and as America has sunk deeper and deeper into cretinous Republicanism, and deeper and deeper into inferiority.

American intellectual inferiority isn't just about the Conservative penchant to marry their cousins anymore.....



VendicarE
1.7 / 5 (6) Oct 08, 2013
"Default is nothing more than a failure to pay the interest and principal due on a debt in a timely manner. " - RyggTard

Why would anyone lend money to a deadbeat?

"A failure to raise the debt ceiling... would (not) prevent the government from rolling over existing debt, which it does routinely."

Why would anyone lend money to a deadbeat?

In the case of Default, the U.S. would need to pay higher rates of interest on existing debt in order to attract investment fools.

Currently the rate of return is around 3 percent on average. This represents an interest charge of 3 * 160 billion per year. Adding even another percentage point would increase the yearly cost of servicing the U.S. debt by an additional 160 billion per year.

RyggTard, and his source - commentarymagazine - a Libertarian rag, are innumerate.

VendicarE
1.7 / 5 (6) Oct 08, 2013
"The American Medical Association, which have a minority membership of physicians, forced the closure of hospitals operated by mutual aid societies decades ago." - RyggTard

Another Lie from RyggTard

Meanwhile......

US adults score below average on worldwide test

http://phys.org/n...ide.html

It is sad to see what RyggTard and his Capitalist brothers in crime have done to America.
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (27) Oct 08, 2013
"Have you left yet, or are you still here mooching off of the American Capitalist economy?" - NumenTard

As I have said repeatedly, I left the failing American state years ago when it became obvious that Republican (all tratiors) were planning to destroy the country.



And you continue to refuse say where you live. It's easy to critique a country you don't like from under your desk.

"Default is nothing more than a failure to pay the interest and principal due on a debt in a timely manner. " - Ryggs


Why would anyone lend money to a deadbeat?


They wouldn't, so that should answer your question. That they and the global economy invest money in the USA's future economy and are in fact dependent upon it's economic strength, demonstrates the continued resounding success of American capitalism.
djr
4 / 5 (4) Oct 08, 2013
Noumenon says - "The modern mining industry itself, has since increased safety and efficiency as much as can be expected in that inherently dangerous occupation, not on account of the government, but because it is in THEIR best interest to do so."

Noumenon believes that the government had nothing to do with health and safety standards around the world. Noumenon probably also believes the unions also were not part of the process. Noumenon lives in an alternate reality - which is why it is OK to lie about things - and then to repeat the lie - no matter how many times you get caught. Perhaps Noumenon and Ryggy are one and the same.....
djr
4.3 / 5 (6) Oct 08, 2013
Noumenon "No American, insured or not, is ever turned away when they require medical care."

Noumenon should tell that to Deamonte - and all the other people who do not get preventative treatment because they are not insured. Noumenon should perhaps visit the free clinics that are set up in U.S. cities - and overwhelmed wiith patients who are not getting the basic medical care they need. Noumenon is an idiot who lives in an alternate universe.

http://articles.w...e-driver
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (27) Oct 08, 2013
Noumenon believes that the government had nothing to do with health and safety standards around the world.


Where have I maintained that the government does not set health and safety standards? I expect you to quote me saying that, or I will assume you are a liar.

Only a despicable idiot would call his own father a hypocrite for accepting VA benefits that he earned. How's that for vitriol?
kochevnik
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 08, 2013
They wouldn't, so that should answer your question. That they and the global economy invest money in the USA's future economy and are in fact dependent upon it's economic strength, demonstrates the continued resounding success of American capitalism.
Even more astounding given all the money was counterfeit by criminals and sanctioned by a government violating it's own constitution!
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (14) Oct 08, 2013
"Government Shutdown Hobbles Mine Safety Agency During Spate Of Worker Deaths "
http://www.huffin...829.html

Most dangerous jobs:
No. 1: Fishers and related fishing workers
No. 2: Logging workers
No. 3: Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
No. 4: Refuse and recyclable material collectors
No. 5: Roofers
No. 6: Structural iron and steel workers
No. 7: Farmers and ranchers
No. 8: Driver/sales workers and truck drivers
No. 9: Taxi drivers and chauffeurs
No. 10: Electrical power-line installers and repairers
No. 11: Police and sheriff's patrol officers
No. 12: Grounds maintenance workers
No. 13: Construction laborers
No. 14: Coal mining
No. 15: Operating engineers and construction equipment operators

Read more: http://www.busine...hAcCnlFp
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (27) Oct 08, 2013
They wouldn't, so that should answer your question. That they and the global economy invest money in the USA's future economy and are in fact dependent upon it's economic strength, demonstrates the continued resounding success of American capitalism.
Even more astounding given all the money was counterfeit by criminals and sanctioned by a government violating it's own constitution!


I'm thinking you believe that the 9/11 terrorist attacks were an inside job, and the moon landing was faked.

How stupid do you believe the rest of the world must be to consider the USA dollar the standard, if there was no substantive basis for doing so?
djr
5 / 5 (5) Oct 08, 2013
Noumenon: "Where have I maintained that the government does not set health and safety standards?"

Noumenon stipulates that right here (I put brackets around the exact words).

"The modern mining industry itself, has since increased safety and efficiency as much as can be expected in that inherently dangerous occupation, [not on account of the government], but because it is in THEIR best interest to do so

It is well known that the mining industry has resisted efforts to implement safety measures - and has had to be pushed by the government all the way. This was the second hit I found with a quick google search - http://www.washin...445.html
VendicarE
2.6 / 5 (7) Oct 08, 2013
"Government Shutdown Hobbles Mine Safety Agency During Spate Of Worker Deaths " - RyggTard

Filthy TeaBag Republicans.

Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (25) Oct 09, 2013
"Government Shutdown Hobbles Mine Safety Agency During Spate Of Worker Deaths " - RyggTard

Filthy TeaBag Republicans.



If the point of that article at the HuffingtonPost was to imply that the government is so intergral to industrial safety that a temporary shutdown has lead immediately to deaths, then they must have contempt for the intellectual capacity of their readship.

@djr, at least you quoted me in full, which I believe makes clear my meaning. When I say "not on account of the government", of course I'm not implying that OSHA and the FDA (or whatever the equivalent in other countries) doesn't exist, I'm saying its in the best interest of modern industry to improve its safety standards in any case. The technological improvements for purposes of efficiency came from industry, not the government. P.S, how do you feel about siding with a admitted anti-capitalist, anti-corporation, anti-american, socialist? Pathethic.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 09, 2013
Anyone who is truly concerned about safety would demand an effectivity analysis.
There has been an entire govt agency whose job it is to force mines to be safe. They fail to do so.
'Progressive'/socialist refuse to accept that self-interest is a powerful motive. The auto industry has been made safer by the auto companies themselves and by the insurance industry that profits or loses from auto accidents. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety conducts more rigorous safety tests than the US govt and auto companies strive to achieve high marks from the IIHS.
What is really interesting is the 'progressives' who demand federal regulations agree with many large industries who demand the same. Large industries can hire staff to influence and manage the govt bureaucracy but their smaller competitor can't.
'Progressives' are in bed with big business!
djr
5 / 5 (3) Oct 09, 2013
Ryggy says - "There has been an entire govt agency whose job it is to force mines to be safe. They fail to do so."

But Noumenon says it is in the best interest of the industry to implement safety procedures - so they will of course do it willingly. So why do we even need a government agency - when the wonderful industry will do the right thing without any prompting? Except that Noumenon and Ryggy clearly know nothing about the history of the world - and how little children employed in sweat shops, and coal mines, under unimaginably conditions - until the industries were forced by legislation into protecting workers. This is common knowledge to any one who has read a history book.
djr
5 / 5 (4) Oct 09, 2013
how do you feel about siding with a admitted anti-capitalist, anti-corporation, anti-american, socialist?

I would have a beer with Vendi any day of the week. Based on your morals - not so. I was raised in a world with very diverse political perspectives - I am comfortable with differing politics - not with a lack of moral compass.
Modernmystic
1.6 / 5 (8) Oct 09, 2013
Clarification; I should have said ACA not AMA.

I don't like to use the term "obamacare" I think it's disrespectful and creates hostility. What I meant was the affordable care act.

Sorry for the confusion.

I am comfortable with differing politics - not with a lack of moral compass.


And yet politics and ethics are inextricably linked....

But you'd have a drink with someone who says (and I'm paraphrasing) "The only good (insert your favorite villain here) is a dead (re-insert your favorite villain here).

Please kindly elucidate how that kind of person passes muster to "have a beer with"....
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (28) Oct 09, 2013
how do you feel about siding with a admitted anti-capitalist, anti-corporation, anti-american, socialist?

I would have a beer with Vendi any day of the week. Based on your morals - not so. I was raised in a world with very diverse political perspectives - I am comfortable with differing politics - not with a lack of moral compass.


I think your VA benefit receiving father would shed a tear of disappointment had he known you would be willingly to sit and have a beer with an anti-american socialist who stated this....

"The world needs more dead americans in Afghanastan & Iraq" = VendicarE

Why don't you ask him?

My mistake was in only being factually wrong, even though I had admitted to it and provided rational na factual reasons which lead me astray. You are more despicable than just being in error, ... calling your own father a hyposcrite for accepting VA benefits, and siding with a known perpetual liar and anti-American.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (28) Oct 09, 2013
,... and by extension of course you can replace the above quote with "dead British".
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (12) Oct 09, 2013
So why do we even need a government agency - when the wonderful industry will do the right thing without any prompting?


Yes, why?
1. So 'progressives' can extort campaign contributions from corporations. ("Nice little business you got there. It would be a shame if we had to shut it down for violating (fill in the blank).
2. Corporations that want to use force to stifle competitors, but can't without going to jail, 'hire' the govt to do so for them by prompting the regulatory state to make regulation too onerous and unprofitable for competitors.
This was the motivation for the FDA, an alliance with 'progressives' and large meat packers to limit competition.
And when the regulators are bought off the 'progressive' laments and demands more regulators, increasing the size of the state, his one desire, but with no corresponding regulatory efficacy.
If the 'progressive' truly desired safety, all ways and means would be open to analysis and discussion.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Oct 09, 2013
" Imagine you're the CEO of a major airline, and one day all the regulatory agencies disappear. Are you going to stop maintaining your planes? At the risk of stating the obvious, the answer is no. One disaster could be the death knell for an airline, particularly if there were the slightest hint that the company was skimping on upkeep.

Moreover, it's highly unlikely that investors would plow money into an airline when share value could disappear overnight because of an accident. And banks presumably would be leery about lending to an airline that faced the risk of quick bankruptcy. Moreover, insurance companies would have a very strong incentive to monitor the safety practices of the airline— and keep in mind no bank would lend money to an airline that lacked insurance.

In other words, the competitive marketplace can be viewed as a very effective form of regulation. Instead of rules and red tape from Washington, the profit motive creates mutually reinforcing oversight."
Neinsense99
1.9 / 5 (9) Oct 09, 2013


-No it does not. As a Canadian, I can tell you gov controlled health care is not better. It is not better to have to wait eight months for knee surgery for example.

-No American, insured or not, is ever turned away when they require medical care.

Source for that 8 month wait? Nature of the surgery and it's purpose? Which provincial/territorial system (not federal) was involved? Was it just cherry-picked from some blog? http://www.pnhp.o...anad.php
Neinsense99
1.9 / 5 (9) Oct 09, 2013
how do you feel about siding with a admitted anti-capitalist, anti-corporation, anti-american, socialist?

I would have a beer with Vendi any day of the week. Based on your morals - not so. I was raised in a world with very diverse political perspectives - I am comfortable with differing politics - not with a lack of moral compass.


I think your VA benefit receiving father would shed a tear of disappointment had he known you would be willingly to sit and have a beer with an anti-american socialist who stated this....

"The world needs more dead americans in Afghanastan & Iraq" = VendicarE

Why don't you ask him?

My mistake was in only being factually wrong, even though I had admitted to it and provided rational na factual reasons which lead me astray. You are more despicable than just being in error, ... calling your own father a hyposcrite for accepting VA benefits, and siding with a known perpetual liar and anti-American.

Says Mr. Global Cooling Consensus....
djr
5 / 5 (4) Oct 09, 2013
calling your own father a hyposcrite for accepting VA benefits, and siding with a known perpetual liar and anti-American.

Correction - father in law. Yes it is hypocritical to promote a political philosophy - especially in the mean spirited hateful way that I see coming from many on the right - and then to live a life that is in direct contradiction to that philosophy - for your own personal privilege. See the above Ayn Rand discussion.

Vendi shows a good understanding of the science - and does not accuse scientists of some absurd grand conspiracy. Yes Vendi's rhetoric goes way over the top - and I have gone on record as disapproving of the death threats, and the use of the term tard. It is not a crime to be anti American - and I share much of Vendi's analysis of the sickness of the American culture.
djr
5 / 5 (4) Oct 09, 2013
"My mistake was in only being factually wrong"

Ryggy and Noumenon constantly want to re-litigate issues that are open and shut. Noumenon's mistake was NOT in only being wrong - it was in knowingly repeating a falsehood multiple times. That is the lack of moral compass that I am referring to - someone who does not care about the truth - only about trying to look good.
Noumenon
2.8 / 5 (27) Oct 09, 2013
calling your own father a hyposcrite for accepting VA benefits, and siding with a known perpetual liar and anti-American.


Correction - father in law. Yes it is hypocritical to promote a political philosophy - especially in the mean spirited hateful way that I see coming from many on the right - and then to live a life that is in direct contradiction to that philosophy - for your own personal privilege. See the above Ayn Rand discussion.


It is clear that you have never read Ayn Rand. Her philosophy is based on "for your own personal privilege", egoism. Thus, she was not hypocritical in the least, yet you wish to continue that lie even after having been told so and provided her own words on the subject.

Further, that you equate 'being a conservative' with 'advocating for No government', is symptomatic of you being victimized by leftists propaganda. I already explained this to you, yet you repeat that lie.
Noumenon
2.8 / 5 (27) Oct 09, 2013
"My mistake was in only being factually wrong"

Ryggy and Noumenon constantly want to re-litigate issues that are open and shut. Noumenon's mistake was NOT in only being wrong - it was in knowingly repeating a falsehood multiple times. That is the lack of moral compass that I am referring to - someone who does not care about the truth - only about trying to look good.


It is YOU who kept mentioning my mistake even after I had already admitted to the error. You continue to do so. It was closed once I had admitted I was wrong.
kochevnik
2.1 / 5 (7) Oct 09, 2013
In other words, the competitive marketplace can be viewed as a very effective form of regulation. Instead of rules and red tape from Washington, the profit motive creates mutually reinforcing oversight."
That's like claiming you don't need to navigate your sailboat because the wind is currently to your back

So nice that you have a piece of puffery for every day of the year, ryggie. Would be nicer if you kept your bad habits to yourself
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (13) Oct 09, 2013
And, once again, koch and his fellow travelers can't provide a cogent response to defend their failing socialistic regulatory state.
kochevnik
2.3 / 5 (6) Oct 09, 2013
And, once again, koch and his fellow travelers can't provide a cogent response to defend their failing socialistic regulatory state.
Oh you mean that one that I live in? Being forced to live in reality seems painful for you, ryggie. Maybe you should join a prepper underground network to await the blossoming of your Somalian libertarian paradise, since Somalia doesn't give pasports

Or crowdfund and buy Sealand. I heard it was for sale. Uzbekistan has some openings as well
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (15) Oct 09, 2013
And, once again, koch and his fellow travelers can't provide a cogent response to defend their failing socialistic regulatory state.
djr
4.3 / 5 (6) Oct 09, 2013
Noumenon: "It is YOU who kept mentioning my mistake even after I had already admitted to the error."

I mentioned Noumenon's mistake in response to Noumenon raising the issue yet again. Count up 14 comments before this one - and it can be seen that Noumenon is living in an alternative universe. What Noumenon did not admit to was the reprehensible practice of repeating a lie - even after others had pointed out that lie. Noumenon must have been watching a lot of Fox news.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Oct 09, 2013
And, once again, koch and his fellow travelers can't provide a cogent response to defend their failing socialistic regulatory state.
Oh you mean that one that I live in? Being forced to live in reality seems painful for you, ryggie. Maybe you should join a prepper underground network to await the blossoming of your Somalian libertarian paradise, since Somalia doesn't give pasports

Or crowdfund and buy Sealand. I heard it was for sale. Uzbekistan has some openings as well

Koch, don't feel bad, Sweden, Norway and Cuba can't defend their socialism.
VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 09, 2013
"The world needs more dead americans in Afghanastan & Iraq" = VendicarE

Absolutely correct.

The more expensive America's war crimes in Iraq are made for Americans, the less likely they will be repeated.

"and by extension of course you can replace the above quote with "dead British"." - NumenTard

Without question.
VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 09, 2013
"Source for that 8 month wait?" - Neinsense

Long term waits on the order of years are a result of the system trying to limit the lifetime number of procedures. and to provide maximal lifetime for the ones that are performed.

Mecanical Knees and hips need replacement after a decade or so, and the system sees knee replacements for 95 year olds as wasteful of resources. So if there are to be three replacements and they last 10 years each, it is best to schedule them at 85 and 75 and 65 rather than 60,70,80.

Short term delays on the order of months are generally the result of short term triage.

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (12) Oct 09, 2013
'Liberals' have jumped the shark and have no rational argument to defend Obamacare.

"Racism and Cruelty: What's Behind the GOP's Healthcare Agenda? - See more at: http://www.thenat...R6y.dpuf

In a similar vein, a sociologist claims indigenous American's wide variety of maladies are caused by a football team called Redskins.
Is it a coincidence the team is from Washington, DC, home of the US govt agency that is supposed to help, and assuage the guilt, of how the US govt treated aboriginal Americans?
Why hasn't the Bureau of Indian Affairs solved all the problems the sociologists claims aboriginal Americans have?
VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 09, 2013
The real title of RyggTard's link.

Racism and Cruelty: What's Behind the GOP's Healthcare Agenda? -

http://www.thenat...ejd.dpuf
kochevnik
1.9 / 5 (7) Oct 09, 2013
@ryggie Koch, don't feel bad, Sweden, Norway and Cuba can't defend their socialism.
Yes, three nations Americans flee to because they can't obtain affordable quality healthcare in their own nation!

Strange how even libertarians become very practical and "socialist" when death knocks. If pathological lying and antisocial behavior were fatal libertarianism would cease to exist
djr
5 / 5 (3) Oct 09, 2013
Funny you guys should mention Sweden. This is an interesting article.

http://www.nytime...tml?_r=0

Don't you love google? Here is my favorite line from the article "Their core premise — that greater government involvement in health care provision spells disaster — lacks support in the wealth of evidence from around the world"

Dont tell Noumenon - too much cognitive dissonance would ensue.
Howhot
3 / 5 (4) Oct 10, 2013
Wow, this thread has turned into a very lengthy commentary. It looks like my friend @R2 is being hammered on dodge, diversion, misdirection and lack of facts; just as all of the rightwing posters are. You sound just like the republican congress R2, excuse after excuse to make an argument based on fallacy that is based on fallacy. The whole conservative premises has been wrong since Ragan and it wasn't all that good before him.

In the Big picture, where do you go with all of this; Your denialism of the environment and global warming, healthcare for all Americans and people on US soil, the opposition to a well regulated system of taxes and services that benefit the citizens, society and the global community; Your denialism is systemic of what is wrong right now with America.

What is the republican dream? What system would you impose on all people to make a functional society? And would it actually work if you really had a plan.

If you can't say; then STFU.



ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 10, 2013
healthcare for all Americans

All citizens and illegal aliens in the US can get FREE health care BEFORE Obamacare.

Sweden's abolished its tax on wealth to keep wealthy Swedes from leaving the country and now Norway is following in the path of Sweden by reducing its welfare that incentivized people NOT to work.
Sweden also provides vouchers for k-12 education instead of govt mandated public schools.
And, Sweden and Norway are about the size and population of WI or MN. The US is supposed to be a republic. Let each of the 50 states decide how to deal with health care, which is what republicans have supported, rather than govt health care.
whole conservative premises has been wrong since Ragan

The 20+ years of prosperity resulting from Reagan's policies are finally being choked off by the 'progressive' socialism.
Just a few years of anti-socialist policies, from Coolidge, JFK and Reagan take decades for the socialists to smother.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 10, 2013
Funny you guys should mention Sweden. This is an interesting article.

http://www.nytime...tml?_r=0

Don't you love google? Here is my favorite line from the article "Their core premise — that greater government involvement in health care provision spells disaster — lacks support in the wealth of evidence from around the world"

Dont tell Noumenon - too much cognitive dissonance would ensue.

Dig a bit deeper and you will find the reason. They all have SMALL govts, homogenous populations and low corruption. At least in Scandinavia.
If you want similar results, federalize, don't nationalize. Gut the HHS, DoEd, ... and return power to the states.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 10, 2013
"Reich acknowledges that ObamaCare "is hardly perfect," but he insists "the president cannot re-negotiate the Affordable Care Act" because that would mean giving in to the Republicans: "If you give in to bullies, their bullying only escalates." America is stuck with this monstrous law because the alternative would be too costly to Obama's pride. Disgust and cynicism seem an entirely appropriate reaction."
http://online.wsj...pOpinion
Can't bruise the dear leader's ego, can we.

"Ronald Reagan was the last president who had a basic skepticism of Big Government, but Barack Obama may end up having done more than any of his predecessors to promote that feeling among the public."
djr
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 10, 2013
Dig a bit deeper and you will find the reason.

When the facts don't reflect your ideological belief system - just rationalize the facts - idiot.

The fact is that Noumenon has claimed that governments cannot manage a good health care system. The fact is that I just proved that is false. The fact is - that as Jack Nicholson said "You cannot handle the truth."

"All citizens and illegal aliens in the US can get FREE health care BEFORE Obamacare."

Getting free health care - ie going to a free clinic that uses donated time - or going to the emergency room - even though you know you will not be able to afford the bill - is NOT the same as having health care. Ryggy is ignorant - has no moral compass - knows nothing of the world he/she lives in.
Modernmystic
1.8 / 5 (10) Oct 10, 2013
The fact is that Noumenon has claimed that governments cannot manage a good health care system. The fact is that I just proved that is false.


No, the FACT is that such a thing CAN'T be proven false OR true. You said manage a "good health system"....good to WHOM? By WHOSE standards...yours? Why do we use yours? Why not use yours? Values aren't facts....I'll say that again VALUES aren't FACTS, they are human created fictions no different than religion or a thousand other things we pretend are true because they make us feel safe and comfy.

Moreover what you "proved" is that the SWEDISH government can manage what you consider a good health care system in the context of SWEDISH culture (ie dealing with people raised in Sweden...NOT Americans). So even IF we assumed your values are "good" or "right" or "correct" you're still not making the case socialized medicine will work in America, even to the extent that YOU think it's "good"....
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 10, 2013
The fact is that Noumenon has claimed that governments cannot manage a good health care system.

So why is the US govt managed system operate so poorly with so much waste, fraud and corruption?
And ditto for the UK system? Why does the UK health care system kill patients?
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 10, 2013
"The reality is that Swedish healthcare is the perfect illustration of the tragedy of central planning. It is expensive and — even worse — it kills innocent people. "
"An American medical student and friend of mine spent a year at a major Swedish hospital. He was shocked when he realized that students never spent any of their spare time in the operating room; there was no drive to become the best. There are of course enthusiasts who love their work regardless, and do a fantastic job, but the system is not conducive to this attitude. "
"It was recently revealed in one of the major newspapers that doctors were told to prioritize patients based on their value as future taxpayers. Old people naturally have a low future-taxpayer-value, so they naturally became low priority in the machine and less likely to receive proper treatment. I"
http://mises.org/daily/6476/
Something rotten in Sweden.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Oct 10, 2013
"Admission is by appointment only. Usually they have a 30-minute window every morning, when you call to claim one of the budgeted slots. Make sure to call early or they run out. Rarely will you get an appointment for the same day. You will be assigned a general practitioner, probably one you have never met before; likely one who does not speak fluent Swedish; and very likely one who hates his job. If you have a serious condition, you will be started on a path of referrals to experts. This process can take months. Contrary to what professor Frank believes this is not a "feature" of the system, to ensure maximum capacity-utilization. This is an unavoidable characteristic of central planning, analogous to Soviet bread lines, which nobody refers to as a "feature."

This healthcare "bread line" is where people die. It happens regularly that by the time a patient gets to see an expert, his condition has progressed beyond remedy. "
http://mises.org/daily/6476/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Oct 10, 2013
"The market for private healthcare in Sweden is small. Few people can afford it since they already pay 70 percent tax for all of their "free" stuff. The politicians have private health care, though, naturally paid for by taxpayers."
"When I moved to the U.S., our family health insurance took three months to kick in. One of my family members broke a leg in this period. We found a "five-minute clinic" half an hour away, had the leg X-rayed, straightened and casted, with no waiting time — all for $200 cash. That kind of service is non-existent in Sweden."
"The reason American insurance-based healthcare is so expensive is that it is heavily regulated and legally connected to the equally-regulated insurance industry. Both are well protected from competition by regulation."
http://mises.org/daily/6476/
djr
5 / 5 (2) Oct 10, 2013
Modernmystic. "VALUES aren't FACTS,'

No idiot - FACTS ARE FACTS - which are inconvenient problems that you can't handle. If the Swedish system is a functional system - that costs half the money of the U.S. system, and has better health outcomes - then from an objective (factual) perspective - it is a good system. So all your spamming is bull shit isn't it. Like Nicholson said - 'you can't handle the facts'.
djr
5 / 5 (2) Oct 10, 2013
If the U.S. 'free market' health care system is sooooo much better - why do we spend twice what they spend in Sweden - for worse health outcome statistics? Modernmystic - THOSE ARE FACTS.

http://fall09hpm1...d+Sweden
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Oct 10, 2013
it is a good system

Not according to Swedes who have to suffer in it.
If the U.S. 'free market' health care system i

What free market health care system? The US does NOT have a free market healthcare system.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Oct 10, 2013
There are a few free market health care pockets. One in is OK.
"It is no secret to anyone that the pricing of surgical services is at the top of the list of problems in our dysfunctional healthcare system. Bureaucracy at the insurance and hospital levels, cost shifting and the absence of free market principles are among the culprits for what has caused surgical care in the United States to be cost prohibitive. As more and more patients find themselves paying more and more out of pocket, it is clear that something must change. We believe that a very different approach is necessary, one involving transparent and direct pricing.

Transparent, direct, package pricing means the patient knows exactly what the cost of the service will be upfront."
http://www.surger...m/about/
Unless the state forces them to close, I suspect there will be more like this.
djr
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 10, 2013
Not according to Swedes who have to suffer in it.

According to objective criteria that I have showed you repeatedly. Of course as usual -Ryggy's anecdotal information always trumps scientific facts. That is why Ryggy tries to comment on a science web site - and then looks like a complete idiot. Perhaps Ryggy should look up the term data, and then look up the term anecdotal. 50 million Americans without health care would probably take issue with Ryggy's anecdotal post. Oh but in Ryggy land - every American has access to health care......
kochevnik
2.3 / 5 (6) Oct 10, 2013
@ryggie And ditto for the UK system? Why does the UK health care system kill patients?
The most dangerous place to be is at a hospital. More people die in hospitals that anywhere else. You haven't told anything new
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 10, 2013
Who is being cared for in any health care system?
Individual people who have the final say on the value of the health care provided.
Everyone in the USA can have free medical care.
Why do 'liberals' conflate heath insurance with health care? Are they shilling for insurance companies?
"But what does "access" mean? Is there some epidemic of oversized hockey goalies standing outside hospitals, blocking people from getting into the ER? Have I just missed the news that hospital walkways are booby trapped and that you can only sneak through the door if you have your own invisibility cloak?"
http://capitalism...th-care/

Even the Swede who emigrated to the US had access to health care before his insurance was in effect.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 10, 2013
"Consider, for example, one of the many aberrations in the U.S. system that unnecessarily cost us billions of excess dollars: hospital site of service differentials. Medicare {GOVT controlled} pays far more for physician services delivered in a hospital or hospital-owned facility than for the exact same services delivered or procedure performed in a private practice physician office."
"But the ACA, with its incentives for integrated care, is actually driving more physicians to hospital employment, pushing more services into the more expensive hospital-owned facility. "
http://www.forbes...explode/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 10, 2013
"Talk to any hospital CEO in Massachusetts, and they will say the local health care market is actually two separate markets: one defined by privately insured care, and one defined by government-subsidized care. Because government programs such as Medicare and Medicaid are notoriously stingy when it comes to reimbursing health providers — often paying less than 70 cents on the dollar for the cost of care, according to state and federal data — hospitals and other care givers are required to offset the difference by hosing the privately insured.

That said, it's no mystery why the cost of private health insurance is skyrocketing."
"So buckle up, America. Those $25 co-pays and $2,000 deductibles you're being asked to pay today will seem quaint in five years."
http://www.bizjou...page=all
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 10, 2013
Maybe scientists should do a bit more thinking.

"To understand why the whole bizarre business continues to thrive, follow the money. It will lead you straight to the treasuries of state and federal governments, where academia constitutes an important player in the fascistic enterprise coordinated by politicians in office and their appointed bureaucrats at agencies such as the National Science Foundation. The payoff to society, however, is entirely another matter. One wonders how long this way of doing economics can survive as the state's relentless expansion eats more deeply into society's capacity to bankroll the silliness of people who would rather solve make-believe economic puzzles than—not to belabor my point—simply think about how the world works."
http://blog.indep...rch-too/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Oct 10, 2013
For all you 'liberals' who demand Obamacare.....

"Let's keep in mind that Obamacare is very good for the health insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies."
http://www.agains...ifornia/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Oct 10, 2013
Do 'liberals' want real reform? No.

"Fully repeals President Obama's health care law, eliminating billions in taxes and thousands of pages of unworkable regulations and mandates that are driving up health care costs. "
"Provides tax reform that allows families and individuals to deduct health care costs, just like companies, leveling the playing field and providing all Americans with a standard deduction for health insurance."
"Expands access to Health Savings Accounts (HSAs), increasing the amount of pre-tax dollars individuals can deposit into portable savings accounts to be used for health care expenses."
http://rsc.scalis...rway.htm
Neinsense99
1.5 / 5 (8) Oct 10, 2013
Sorry, I thought the subject was desirability of the USA for scientific research, not 'Obamacare' and libertarian ideology. Pardon me.
djr
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 10, 2013
Ryggy - all of your spamming does nothing to change the fact that you are not able to address the facts. The question at hand was can a government administer a good health care program? Clearly the answer is yes - as objective measures can show that Sweden has a good system. All you can provide is an anecdotal response when presented with objective data. What an idiot you are.
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 10, 2013
I don't think that RyggTard has ever answered a question that has been put to him. I certainly never remember seeing such an event.

He just posts pointless propaganda, typically dishonest, and quotes from nobodies who suffer from the same mental disorder as he.

Thinking is required to answer questions and RyggTard doesn't answer questions because he really can't think for himself. He calls himself a "free thinker" but like virtually all self professed "free thinkers" he relies on others to do the thinking for him, and he just parrots their nonsense.

Pathetic.
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 10, 2013
"Fully repeals President Obama's health care law" - RyggTard

The Republican wet dream. The least American health care possible for the highest possible price for Americans.

That was the Republican protected system before Obama's health care reforms.

VendicarE
1.6 / 5 (5) Oct 10, 2013
"The US does NOT have a free market healthcare system." - RyggTard

And Americans are much better off as a result.

Free markets provide the worst possible product at the highest possible price.

How much are you willing to pay to stay alive?

VendicarE
2.4 / 5 (5) Oct 10, 2013
health spending and insurance 2007

Canada, Australia, Germany, U.S.

Per Capita $3,326, $3128 $3,287 $6697

Percent Uninsured 0% 0% 0% 16%

Who's financial interests is RyggTard and the corrupt Republicans trying to protect?

VendicarE
2.2 / 5 (6) Oct 10, 2013
Life Expectancy

Socialist Sweden 81, Capitalist USA 78

Infant Mortality

Soclalist Sweden 2.7, Capitalist USA 5.9

Doctors per 100,000 citizens

Socialist Sweden 3.6, Capitalist USA 2.4

Nurses per 100,000 citizens

Socialist Sweden 10.8, Capitalist USA 10.6

PerCapita expenditure on health care

Socialist Sweden $3,432 Capitalist USA $7,437

Satisfied with quality and availability of health care.

Socialist Sweden 77%, Capitalist USA, 81%, Germany 88%

RyggTard. busted again.

VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 10, 2013
"Let's keep in mind that Obamacare is very good for the health insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies." - RyggTard

Phase 2 won't be so happy for them. Costs must be reduced, and therefore so their profits will be reduced.

VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 10, 2013
"To understand why the whole bizarre business continues to thrive, follow the money. It will lead you straight to the treasuries of state and federal governments, where academia constitutes an important player in the fascistic enterprise coordinated by politicians in office and their appointed bureaucrats at agencies such as the National Science Foundation." - Chicago School of Economics

Thanx Riggtard. You have just made it clear to the members of the National Science foundation who the enemy is.
VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 10, 2013
"Because government programs such as Medicare and Medicaid are notoriously stingy when it comes to reimbursing health providers — often paying less than 70 cents on the dollar for the cost of care, according to state and federal data — hospitals and other care givers are required to offset the difference by hosing the privately insured." - RyggTard

So, according to RyggTard, Americans need to pay 30 percent more for healthcare.

Is that the Republican plan?
djr
2.5 / 5 (2) Oct 10, 2013
Vendi: "Is that the Republican plan?"

At this point - it seems the republican plan is to collapse the U.S. economy - crash the stock market - and destroy the U.S. government. I have worked my whole life - paying in to Social Security, a private retirement plan, and an investment plan. Now they are trying to turn it all into worthless paper. All I can do is watch - as the Republican leaderships says "Don't worry - defaulting on our debt is not a big deal" Every economist says the opposite. I am so discouraged - but what can you do?
Howhot
2.5 / 5 (2) Oct 11, 2013
R2 say;
What free market health care system? The US does NOT have a free market healthcare system.


Considering our current system of Insurance company's, Hospitals, Corporate practices and Administrators and a million pieces of red tape, your comment is just blather and non-sense. Our current system of health-care is (I think) 1/4 of the entire USA GDP! If that is not free market, then there is something wrong. The real question though, is should that be the way we provide health care, with all it's inefficiencies and capital waste?

Right now Obamacare is the happy compromise between wild and wooly freemarket healthcare and a well regulated and structured system of delivering service. It's not just a market choice either, @R2, with 1/4 of the GDP tied up, it has consequences on our economy and thus economies around the world! So what do the dumb-ass republican bozo's do?
Howhot
3.8 / 5 (4) Oct 11, 2013
@Vendicar E;
So, according to RyggTard, Americans need to pay 30 percent more for healthcare.

Is that the Republican plan?

No, apparently not. It's to crush the government of the USA and put the country in default causing everyone in the USA to go bankrupt as we toss and turn for another 10 years through another republican made disaster!
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 11, 2013
he republican plan is to collapse the U.S. economy

That IS BHO's plan and they have been succeeding putting more people on welfare and punishing businesses who want to grow.
can a government administer a good health care program?

NO. 'Good' is a subjective value. What may be 'good' to the govt will not be good for the patient. The only arbiter of quality in any health care plan is the patient. dj does not want the patient, the consumer, the customer of health care to judge the quality of care.
VA, Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare all provide poor quality services to the patient. But that is what they are stuck with.
When any govt controls, by force, any market, including health care, how can there be any objective comparisons?
Now they are trying to turn it all into worthless paper.

That is the socialist way so why do you support and defend socialists?
It is against the LAW to default on US debt. The president MUST pay interest and principal FIRST with any revenue.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 11, 2013
Our current system of health-care is (I think) 1/4 of the entire USA GDP! If that is not free market, then there is something wrong.


Yes, there is something wrong. There is NO free market in health care when Medicare and Medicaid control over have the market and the regulates all of the market.
As noted, govt FORCES hospitals and doctors to take less than the cost of care so private insurance must pick up the rest, OR the hospital goes out of business OR stops taking Medicare and Medicaid. That is NOT a free market.
Tucson Medical Center's level one trauma center had to close a few years ago because they had to care for illegal immigrants severely injured in accidents running from the border patrol. The federal govt would NOT reimburse them for the cost of care.That is no free market.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 11, 2013
Obamacare is the happy compromise

How is this a compromise when NO republican voted for it AND many democrats had their arms twisted to support it?
One of the democrats who crafted this 'compromise' said it was a train wreck. He is retiring, or retired.
crush the government of the USA

The govt is crushing the USA plundering more and more wealth. The fascist/socialist govt of the US must be crushed, NOW.
djr
3 / 5 (2) Oct 11, 2013
Ryggy: NO. 'Good' is a subjective value.

NO - it can be objectively measured - you are just too stupid to understand a point as fundamental as that.
djr
3 / 5 (2) Oct 11, 2013
Ryggy :"That is the socialist way"

That is what the current Republicans in the House are trying to do. Stop yapping in labels. The House Republicans are on record as wanting to take the U.S. into default. Economists are in a high level of agreement that this would be very bad for the U.S. economy. They want to see the savings, and safety net of Americans destroyed. They want to cause pain and hardship to the American people. Oh yes - that is what a responsible representative does!!!!!!
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (7) Oct 11, 2013
If the U.S. 'free market' health care system is sooooo much better - why do we spend twice what they spend in Sweden - for worse health outcome statistics? Modernmystic - THOSE ARE FACTS.


Why do we spend twice as much? Because we spend twice as much as most people on most things. Because we do research here they don't do ANYWHERE else in the world. Because we're SUBSIDIZING all that Swedish medicine with new drugs, procedures, and technology they CAN'T develop in a stifled market. Why is infant mortality higher here? CULTURE. Did you even read my previous post?

In short, for those of you having extreme difficulty grasping a simple point America is NOT Sweden....GOT IT? Apples meet oranges....

Now as far as outcomes go I don't want to spend 70% of my money in governmental taxes. Do you? Should you care what I want to do with my money? Should I care what YOU think about good outcomes vs bad ones for money spent? Is it as simplistic as mortality rates and money???

sheesh.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (12) Oct 11, 2013
Economists are in a high level of agreement that this would be very bad for the U.S. economy

Are these the same economists who have perpetuated the high employment, no growth policies of the BHO administration?
it can be objectively measured

What are the objectives? Why are they objective?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 11, 2013
Only the president can default on the debt.
"One remarkable aspect of the shutdown/debt limit battle is the irresponsibility (on the part of the Obama administration) and incompetence (on the part of the news media) concerning the claim that the federal government will default on its debt obligations if Congress fails to raise the debt limit. "
"But there is no threat of default. Constitutionally, the federal government must pay its debts. '
"So the question is, if Congress does not raise the current debt ceiling, will the federal government run out of money needed to pay its existing debts? The answer is clearly No. "
"leaving the debt ceiling as is would function as a spending cut. This is why the Democrats hate the idea so much."
http://www.powerl...ions.php
That's why the socialist must lie.
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (7) Oct 11, 2013
Ryggy: NO. 'Good' is a subjective value.

NO - it can be objectively measured - you are just too stupid to understand a point as fundamental as that.


How exactly are you going to measure what's good objectively? Remember it has to be considered good by every single person alive otherwise it's not objective and doesn't apply. Facts exist on their own no matter who agrees and who doesn't, value judgements are exactly the opposite. Why do you think we're even HAVING this discussion?

Have you ever heard of a law prohibiting people from running faster than the speed of light? Why do you think that is?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Oct 11, 2013
"Nine insurance companies are pulling out of Nebraska's major medical insurance market, and some of them cite Obamacare as the reason for their departure.

Seven of the nine companies have notified the state of their plans to leave since August. Most of them have a minor piece of the major medical market in Nebraska, and likely don't think it's worth it to make the changes necessary to comply with the federal health care law. "
http://www.foxnew...+Text%29
Classic rent seeking. Create laws to raise the cost of doing business to put smaller competitors out of business.
'Progressives' must love Big Insurance.
djr
3 / 5 (2) Oct 11, 2013
Modernmystic: "How exactly are you going to measure what's good objectively?"

You really are that stupid - and I am treating you like an adult.

If a health system is liked by the majority of it's members, it is 1/2 the cost of the U.S. sytem, it has health outcomes (mortality rates etc,) that are every bit as good, everyone is covered under the system, same number of doctors and nursed per capita, etc.

Then you have objective measures that tell you it is a good system. If you do not know the difference between and objective measure and a subjective measure - you have no business trying to read a science article
djr
2.3 / 5 (3) Oct 11, 2013
Modernmystic: " Because we do research here they don't do ANYWHERE else in the world."

Please provide evidence that other countries do not do medical research. You are an arrogant American.
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (7) Oct 11, 2013
You really are that stupid - and I am treating you like an adult.


As am I. However calling someone stupid isn't ACTING like an adult.

If a health system is liked by the majority of it's members, it is 1/2 the cost of the U.S. sytem [sic], it has health outcomes (mortality rates etc,) that are every bit as good, everyone is covered under the system, same number of doctors and nursed per capita, etc.


We're still talking about Sweden? Still talking about oranges when the rest of us are talking about apples? Besides the definition of subjective information is what people SAY. Objective information is what people OBSERVE. So whether or not people in Sweden like their system is irrelevant and not objective

Infant mortality rates vary from country to country because of prenatal care and have virtually NOTHING to do with the quality of care being given. It's about access to care, which is different. It's not "good" or "better" or "worse"...objectively it's simply different.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 11, 2013
An objective measure is the actual COST of the health care and the quality/efficiency of the service provided.
Two fields, not covered by most insurance, LASIK eye surgery and cosmetic surgery have lowered their cost of services and increased the quality of those services.
Lesson: eliminate third party payors.
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (8) Oct 11, 2013
(cont) Moreover SINCE people in America do not have universal access and SINCE their infant mortality rates are quite similar to Sweden's DESPITE this fact it actually suggests our system is more robust and advanced technologically. So, which is "better"? Shall we debate how many angles can dance on the head of a pin next?

Please provide evidence that other countries do not do medical research. You are an arrogant American.


I didn't say they don't do medical research in other countries, I said we do medical research here they don't do anywhere else in the world. Please take the time to read what is written and respond to that, and that alone. Leave your preconceptions and emotions out of it as much as possible...that's what adults do....
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Oct 11, 2013
Swedes aren't that happy:
"What India can teach Sweden about healthcare"
"In 2001, Devi Shetty founded Narayana Hrudayalaya, a specialist hospital outside of Bangalore where thousands of cardiac operations are performed annually. Next to it he founded a cancer hospital and a highly specialized eye hospital. Last year the magazine Fast Company listed Narayana Hrudayalaya as one of the most innovative companies in the world.

Thanks to a high level of specialization, the price tag for open heart surgery in the hospital has been pressed down to under $2,000. This is only a third or less of the cost in other parts of India. Although the cost is low, the quality is so high that patients from countries in the west also travel there to seek care."
"Perhaps Sweden wouldn't be bad off if Dr. Shetty decided to build one of his health cities here? After all, we desperately need positive visions on how health services can be improved."
http://www.theloc...0130416/
Neinsense99
1.5 / 5 (8) Oct 11, 2013
Modernmystic: " Because we do research here they don't do ANYWHERE else in the world."

Please provide evidence that other countries do not do medical research. You are an arrogant American.

They may have meant unique, specific research that isn't done elsewhere, not that no research is done elsewhere. That said, I'm sure there is research done elsewhere that isn't done in the USA too.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Oct 11, 2013
"The situation for Swedish nurses is well documented. It was reported on Monday that half of the nursing staff at the orthopedic unit at Helsingborgs hospital had resigned in the past year - many citing stress due to the high number of patients compared to the nurses on duty.

"This also has huge consequences for the patients' safety," nurses union Vårdförbundet spokeswoman Catarina Eek told the Helsingborgs Dagblad newspaper.

In Stockholm, the shortage of nurses has meant some hospital give their staff bonuses to forego their vacations and avoid staffing gaps. The tough summer months have proved a recurrent recruitment headache for Swedish health care administrators, who are forced to compete with each other to find temporary workers over the summer to cover for nurses on vacation. "
http://www.theloc...0131009/
djr
3.8 / 5 (4) Oct 11, 2013
"As am I. However calling someone stupid isn't ACTING like an adult."

I think it is important to be direct. When you treat a science board with the disrespect that you and Ryggy et al do - I am cool saying it as I see it. You are free to ignore me.

" I said we do medical research here they don't do anywhere else in the world."

And you were using it as an argument for why our system is more expensive than that of other countries. So by extension - you were saying that we do something that others don't - which is why our system is so much more expensive. Either way - you were being arrogant - 'We Americans our soo special - other countries do not do what we do'. There is plenty of unique research done by every country in the world - that is the beauty of science. Did your read the recent article on the research coming from Britain - using a tooth to implant into a person's eye - and recover site? Oh no - impossible - that is from sooocialist England....
djr
2.5 / 5 (2) Oct 11, 2013
modernmystic "So whether or not people in Sweden like their system is irrelevant and not objective"

I wish you could understand how wrong your science is. Not knowing something does not make you stupid - but spamming a web site with your ignorance does.

If I develop an instrument to measure individuals satisfaction with a particular system. I administer that instrument to two groups of people (asking them if they LIKE the system or not) - the results of that administration is objective data. That is done is science all the time.
VendicarE
1 / 5 (3) Oct 11, 2013
"Republicans seem to be playing "how low can you go." Just 28 percent of Americans have a favorable impression of the GOP, according to the latest monthly Gallup tracking poll. The number " is the lowest favorable rating measured for either party in the history of Gallup,

The number is 10 points lower than the party scored in the same poll in September."

Americans generally see Republicans for what they are. The party of Treason.

Isn't that right RyggTard.
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 11, 2013
"Nine insurance companies are pulling out of Nebraska's major medical insurance market, and some of them cite Obamacare as the reason for their departure. " - RyggTard

Excellent. They will be replaced by a superior and lower cost government run program.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Oct 11, 2013
Govt run health care?
" in 1999 the reigns of St. Göran's hospital in western Stockholm were taken over by Capio, a Swedish healthcare management company owned by private equity firms. Today, 20 percent of hospital care across Sweden is run by private outfits in Sweden, a number that rises to 30 percent in the primary care sector. "
http://www.theloc...0130520/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Oct 11, 2013
Why is Sweden privatizing if govt is go great?
"Sweden is leaning towards making its healthcare industry more competitive through privatizing some services. Today, you can find private hospitals with for-profit healthcare operations, which encourages the promotion of Sweden as a top destination for medical tourism."
"Effective January 2010, a patient can choose between private and public healthcare for their primary care, which is one of the reasons why there has been a steady increase in the number of private healthcare providers in the recent years. "
{Wonder why if govt was so good?}
http://www.theloc...0130327/
djr
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 11, 2013
Why is Sweden privatizing if govt is go great?

Maybe Ryggy should learn to read - instead of just cutting and pasting - oh right that would require critical thinking skills. Ryggy's own quote explains that they are privatizing - in order to market their exceptional system as in international medical tourism center. Looks to me like private profit - off of government sponsored activity - which is fine with me - as I favor a healthy public private relationship.
VendicarE
1 / 5 (3) Oct 11, 2013
According to this KookTard Republican Senator, Obama is responsible for the destruction of the U.S. space program.

http://www.youtub...N0yF5goY

And According to this whacked out Republican Senator, Obama is the person responsible for shutting down the U.S. government.

http://www.youtub...eyEtki5A

I have never encountered a Republican who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.

RyggTard is a fine example.
Neinsense99
1.4 / 5 (9) Oct 11, 2013
"Republicans seem to be playing "how low can you go." Just 28 percent of Americans have a favorable impression of the GOP, according to the latest monthly Gallup tracking poll. The number " is the lowest favorable rating measured for either party in the history of Gallup,

The number is 10 points lower than the party scored in the same poll in September."

Americans generally see Republicans for what they are. The party of Treason.

Isn't that right RyggTard.

A certain segment will not be perturbed by the drop in support, figuring that no real patriot would want the support of unwashed liberal heathens with insufficient means anyway.
VendicarE
1 / 5 (3) Oct 11, 2013
"No, apparently not. It's to crush the government of the USA and put the country in default causing everyone in the USA to go bankrupt as we toss and turn for another 10 years through another republican made disaster!" - HowHot

Starve the beast baby... It's all part of the Republican plan to remake America by destroying it, and it has been their plan since the 1980's if not longer.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Oct 11, 2013
28 FEB 2004
"The Swedish coalition government has banned the privatisation of hospitals, amid fears that the expansion
of private health care could destroy the principle of a fair and free public health service. "

18 May 2013
"Sweden has gone further than any other European country in embracing the purchaser-provider split—that is, in using government money to buy public services from whichever providers, public or private, offer the best combination of price and quality. "
http://www.econom...hospital

Sweden also uses vouchers for k-12.

Ben Carson's plan is to use govt money for health care, but the consumer decides how to spend it, not the state. Why do 'liberals' hate vouchers for education and health care but not for food?
VendicarE
1 / 5 (3) Oct 11, 2013
"LASIK eye surgery and cosmetic surgery have lowered their cost of services and increased the quality of those services. Lesson: eliminate third party payors." - RyggTard

Is that the Libertarian plan? Prohibit Americans from purchasing health insurance?

Why are prices for medical services vastly lower in the socialist states that have government as their third payer?

Poor RyggTard. He regularly contradicts himself but isn't bright enough to realize it.

VendicarE
1 / 5 (3) Oct 11, 2013
Republicans filling their diapers over Obama's "DEATH CARE" program.

http://www.youtub...9c-xU6Tw

Morons....
VendicarE
1 / 5 (3) Oct 11, 2013
Fascist Republican pastor claims that martial law must be used to save America from the evil of freedom.

http://www.rightw...takeover
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 11, 2013
""Today the discussion is not whether private health care should have a role in the system, but rather what role private health care will have," says Klas Öberg, of Sweden's National Board of Health and Welfare. "
JUL 2008
http://www.ncbi.n...2443216/

" When Obamacare starts to unravel, will the American people really trust the Democrats who designed it to fix it by giving the government more power and more control? Or will Obamacare's failure provide an opportunity to repeal it and replace it with a more conservative, free-market reform?"
http://www.weekly...908.html

The Swedes chose free market reform for health care and education.

djr
3.3 / 5 (3) Oct 11, 2013
The Swedes chose free market reform for health care and education.

The Swedes have chosen a mixed system - for the reasons explained above - shame Ryggy can't read - only cut and paste what others write....
djr
4 / 5 (4) Oct 11, 2013
The Swedes chose free market reform for health care and education.

The Swedes have chosen a mixed system - for the reasons explained above - shame Ryggy can't read - only cut and paste what others write....
djr
4 / 5 (4) Oct 11, 2013
The Swedes chose free market reform for health care and education.

The Swedes have chosen a mixed system - for the reasons explained above - shame Ryggy can't read - only cut and paste what others write....
Howhot
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 12, 2013
The @R2 say "Only the president can default on the debts". Haha. Once again you need to go back to JHS Civics 100. The president can not create a bill. The president can not create the budget bill. Only the congress (House/Senate) can do that. If it wasn't for a bunch of hillbilly toothless meth-head red state, tea party republicans, the economy would be good and there would be progress on the Obamacare and global warming mitigation. Instead all of the food fights that your party has created has just locked up any process to govern. Sore losers.

Just pass a clean CR and raise debt Ceiling another $1T, and we can deal with your issues later. It helps the economy, steadies the markets and settles the jitters of our trading partners. Or have a food fight, and fracture the full faith and trust of USA's ability to do anything.


ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 12, 2013
[qhe president can not create a bill.
The president is supposed to follow the Constitution.
The Constitution requires that he MUST pay interest and principle on debt.
No bill is required for the president to follow the law.
But, the White House DOES create and submit bills to congress, AND they must submit budgets.
deal with your issues later.

That is BS.
The Swedes have chosen a mixed system

And why did they do this? The socialist system was failing, while the 'liberals' in the US are hard charging towards socialism with Ombacare.
So if the Swedish more privatised health care is good, how is the socialistic Obamacare better?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 12, 2013
"Democrats, and the President in particular, believe that continually taking on more debt to pay existing debt is a more responsible course of action. Even worse, they appear to believe that debt accumulation is the equivalent of economic growth."
"The Democrats' argument that America needs to pay its bills is just hollow rhetoric. Paying off one's Visa bill with a new and bigger MasterCard bill can't be considered a legitimate payment of debt."
"The government can't create something from nothing. Taxation transfers purchasing power from people living in the present to other people living in the present. In contrast, borrowing transfers purchasing power from people living in the future to people living in the present. "
{Fix it later is BS!}
http://www.realcl...666.html
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Oct 12, 2013
we can deal with your issues later


"Obama is a "pathological liar" and a "spoiled brat" because he always gets his way... which is why we should STOP surrendering to him."
Allen West

http://www.capita...s-obama/

'Liberals' don't seem to mind billionaires like Soros, who made is fortune with hedge funds and govt manipulation of markets, but hate Koch Industries who earned their wealth by persuading people to buy their products.
Gmr
1 / 5 (6) Oct 12, 2013
We should not negotiate with terrorists.

Terrorists are ones who use threats and hostage taking to get their way, usually against a much more sizable majority, when other avenues to legal power do not appear to be in their favor.

Give in once, they keep doing it.

So, no. Do not negotiate, do not discuss until the hostages are released and the threat of violence is done. Else they will simply do it again, the next time they want something they don't have or think they deserve.
VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
"Terrorists are ones who use threats and hostage taking to get their way" - Gmr

Guantanamo is a camp that the American Terror stated places some of it's hostages.

"Do not negotiate, do not discuss until the hostages are released and the threat of violence is done. Else they will simply do it again," - Gmr

i agree. Eradicate the terrorist American state and then once crushed, dictate terms to the Americans.
djr
5 / 5 (1) Oct 12, 2013
Wonder why it bothers Ryggy so much that Sweden has a better health care system than the U.S.

Hey Ryggy - Australia has a great health care system - it is much better than the U.S. system. I think you need to spend your whole weekend researching the Australian health care sytems - and then cut and paste all over Physorg about why you personally know that it is not a good system.

http://en.wikiped...ustralia
VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
""Obama is a "pathological liar" and a "spoiled brat" because he always gets his way" - RyggTard quoting another Tard

It is unclear to me how always getting your way makes one a "pathological liar" as the above sentence claims.

What that single sentence shows is that RyggTard, like the author (from the capitalism institute) who coined it, have close to zero critical thinking skills and are very likely pathological liars themselves, driven by their hate filled conservative ideology.

RyggTard has referred to himself as a "free thinker", but he spends his days in an unthinking pursuit of right wing nonsense written by other unthinking Conservatives.

Ryggtard is the antithesis of "free thinking" and a true enemy of Liberty.
VendicarE
2.6 / 5 (5) Oct 12, 2013
"Democrats, and the President in particular, believe that continually taking on more debt to pay existing debt is a more responsible course of action." - RyggTard

Is that why Bush flushed the Clinton surplus down the toilet and returned America to the borrow and spend days of Reagan and his Father?

I don't know of any Democrat who believes what you have just said, RyggTard.

Your claim is just another Conservative Lie.

What I do know is that while the Republicans have been doing their best to Bankrupt America for the last 40 to 50 years, Democrats have been trying to correct the damage.

The Tea-Publican goal is clearly to push America into a decades long economic depression.

Such is the level of hate that you have for your own country.
VendicarE
1 / 5 (3) Oct 12, 2013
"The president is supposed to follow the Constitution.
The Constitution requires that he MUST pay interest and principle on debt." - RyggTard

Wrong again TardieBoy.

The Constitution requires that the American people MUST pay the debt. Not Obama.

And of course, YOU must follow the constitution as well.

So if the U.S. defaults, then by your logic, you are the person responsible for the default.

And that is a statement that is much closer to the truth....
VendicarE
2.2 / 5 (6) Oct 12, 2013
"the 'liberals' in the US are hard charging towards socialism with Ombacare." - RyggTard

Excellent. Due to unregulated capitalism American health care prices are twice that of the socialist states and the U.S. system produces inferior results.

Americans will be better off once they are protected from losing their homes if they become ill.

That is after all, why your hero Ayn Rand decided to become a welfare queen "parasite".

TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
i agree. Eradicate the terrorist American state and then once crushed, dictate terms to the Americans
Hey vd you one of these guys?
http://www.youtub...BNkUEO-Q

-You may want to do your shopping early
http://www.ebay.c...33980342

-Mouse over the pic to see the excellent detail
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (5) Oct 12, 2013
This is why you guys will never win
http://www.youtub...pQRo0sxo
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
"Hey vd you one of these guys?" - Otto

No, one of these guys...

http://www.youtub...BEN97GBs
VendicarE
1 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
"This is why you guys will never win" - Otto

This is why you have already lost...

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
World top bankers warn of dire consequences if Tea-Publicans get their way

http://www.reuter...20131012

Some Tea-Tard responses...

Let 'em default. We American did not sign on to this "debt". How can we really be concerned when it is all a banking ponzi scheme?

Excellent. Bring it on. I think they are just the right size to fail.

If the world's top bankers do not like it then it must be good. They are a bunch of criminals, tyrants, extortionists, and thieves among other things.

These criminals caused the problem in the first place. The U.S. has been pillaged and plundered for 100 years, ever since Woodrow Wilson sold our country to the private central banking system.
VendicarE
1 / 5 (3) Oct 12, 2013
Here's the big setup for globalism and the new world order.

Sure…lets trust the Bankster….criminals all. Screw you guys….go back to the hile you crawled out from.

After burning down the house (electorate) and running the occupants (the U.S. economy) over the cliff, the Republicans and the Speaker then ask Wall Street, the investment banks, the hedge funds, and the Koch brothers "Is there anything else you needed?"

So What!

Let's do it…just to see what happens.

Why should we believe "World Bankers"? They are all crooks

All you criminal bankers should be in prison.

----

And so on, and so on, and so on...

On and on it goes. One ignorant Republican after another demanding that the U.S. need not repay it's debts.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) Oct 12, 2013
No, one of these guys...
Ah so youre french. And you fight with axes. Good luck.
This is why you have already lost...
No see the fed just makes all the money we need. Money is only chutzpah and we have unlimited quantities of that. Again you lose.
VendicarE
1.4 / 5 (5) Oct 12, 2013
"Ah so youre french. And you fight with axes." - Otto

As the Afghan's show, that is more than enough to defeat America.

"the fed just makes all the money we need." - Otto

Is that why your economy has collapsed?

ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 12, 2013
Wonder why it bothers Ryggy so much that Sweden has a better health care system than the U.S.

What I wonder is why dj, who claims NOT to like socialism, supports Obamacare while the Swedes are going the OPPOSITE direction with healthcare
And, off course, Sweden is NOT the USA. Sweden has the area of California, with the population equivalent to NC, MI, or OH, mostly urban.
We should not negotiate with terrorists.

I agree, we must not give in the demands of socialists BHO and Reid.
Youth unemployment ~23%, equivalent to most urban areas in the US.
Median age is 42. 57% of the population is dependent upon the 43%.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 12, 2013
"Nicholas Graves: Yes, health will always be difficult. You'll never fix health. There will always be increases and decreases in funding and it will remain a political football. And so it's about relative improvements. And the point I'm trying to make about Australia is that explicit rationing is not particularly in the mindset of senior decision makers and senior politicians. And I just think a nudge or a shift towards explicit rationing is something that is going to be essential for…the other thing we haven't talked about is the future. So if you look…

Norman Swan: Oh, there is a future?

Nicholas Graves: There is a future. But if you look at the trends in health expenditure, demographics and new technologies, explicit rationing is going to be thrust upon us. "
"Nick Graves is Professor of Health Economics at Queensland University of Technology in Brisbane."
http://www.abc.ne.../4850214
They are running out of OPM.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 12, 2013
The House of Representatives is finally doing its job.
"All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives."
"All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; "
"No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law;"
"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; " { The govt is failing to follow this law.}
VendicarE
2.6 / 5 (5) Oct 12, 2013
"Greece's Conservative neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party has penetrated the country's police force, set up caches of heavy weapons in remote locations and trained its recruits to carry out brutal attacks against immigrants and political opponents, according to the country's top security official." - Financial times

http://www.ft.com...hY3XSGKz

Wow, just like the Conservative Tea-Tards have done in America.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 12, 2013
" For decades, Australia's public healthcare system has been guided by the principal of universality: the ideal that every patient, regardless of age, means or health, should receive the best possible care. But universal healthcare will inevitably crumble; we can't afford it. Indeed, it's already eroding."
"American philosopher Daniel Callihan has tried to raise these issues for more than 20 years. Callihan is now aged in his 80s, but he believes firmly that the fairest and most effective way to ration public healthcare is to discriminate against the elderly.

Read more: http://www.smh.co...hY49g5J9
kochevnik
2.3 / 5 (3) Oct 12, 2013
@ryggie 'Liberals' don't seem to mind billionaires like Soros, who made is fortune with hedge funds and govt manipulation of markets, but hate Koch Industries who earned their wealth by persuading people to buy their products.
By 'people' you mean Stalin? The Americans rejected Koch so according to your statement he should have committed economic suicide
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 12, 2013
Who are the terrorists? This was at Yellowstone Park.
"As noted in the story, the seniors were locked inside the hotel while armed rangers stood at the door. They were described as "Hulk Hogans" and were apparently intimidating enough to lead foreign tourists to believe they were under arrest."
http://downtrend....fficers/
VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
Question: Who are the terrorists?

Answer:

""There's no way our republic can last much longer," Joyner said, adding that "we're headed for serious tyranny" because the electoral system is so broken that the leaders we need who can save this nation will never win office. That is why "our only hope is a military takeover; martial law": - TeaPublican Pastor Rick Joyner
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
"Liberals' don't seem to mind billionaires like Soros" - RyggTard

Liberals don't oppose moral men like Soros.

They do oppose corrupt, cretinous, liars like the Koch Brothers.

Is that clear enough for your puny brain to comprehend?
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
RyggTard quotes from an article titled.. "How will we ration life?"

He refuses to answer that question.

Answering would require thinking and thinking is too hard for TeaPublicans like him.
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
Just how stupid are Faux news Republicans?

"For The Fourth Time, Glenn Beck Repeats False Information On Air That His Own Organization Has Debunked"

http://www.rightw...nZc.dpuf

Yes. They are that stupid.

VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
Kuhner: Polling That Shows GOP At Record Lows Proves GOP Is Winning

Conservative columnist Jeffrey Kuhner claims that polling showing the GOP's popularity dropping to record lows is proof that Republicans are winning the government shutdown fight. Writing for the Washington Times today, Kuhner said that the disastrous polling numbers are all part of a big plan to "win the Obamacare war."

Such is life in the Lipton tea-leaf universe.

djr
4 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
Ryggy: "American philosopher Daniel Callihan has tried to raise these issues for more than 20 years. Callihan is now aged in his 80s, but he believes firmly that the fairest and most effective way to ration public healthcare is to discriminate against the elderly."

I am sure glad that Ryggy alerted us to this issue - we will have to be careful not to listen to American philosophers on the subject of health care - evil bastards - it will be better to talk with someone from a more moral health care system like Australia or Sweden.

On an anecdotal level - my sisterinlaw's mother in England has been fighting stomach cancer for several years now. She has spent time in hospital - and is now in the equivalent of a hospice center. She has received excellent care - and is now in the last days of her life, and is still being cared for by around the clock nursing staff. Good job she does not live int the U.S. where they would have snuffed her by now (according to Ryggy' philosopher).
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Oct 12, 2013
better to talk with someone from a more moral health care system like Australia or Sweden.

It WAS an Australian referring to Calihan ABOUT Australian health care.

Americans rejected Koch

Millions buy their products everyday.
djr
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 12, 2013
"It WAS an Australian referring to Calihan ABOUT Australian health care."

American philosopher Daniel Callihan has tried to raise these issues for more than 20 years. Callihan is now aged in his 80s, but he believes firmly that the fairest and most effective way to ration public healthcare is to discriminate against the elderly

Read the above sentence very carefully. Callihan is saying that HE believes that the fairest and most cost effective way to ration public healthcare is to discriminate against the elderly. HE is advocating for death panels - glad I don't have to listen to his American view.
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
"It WAS an Australian referring to Calihan ABOUT Australian health care." - RyggTard

It is clear that RyggTard's vision of freedom means that those who decide who lives and who dies must be left to Corporate Death panels run by for profit insurance agencies, rather than be decided upon by the American People.

Corporate America works on the assumption that the average American life is worth $200,000

Of course the elderly have a high discount rate that approaches 100 percent.

Isn't that true RyggTard?

ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 12, 2013
Read the above sentence very carefully. Callihan is saying that HE believes that the fairest and most cost effective way to ration public healthcare is to discriminate against the elderly.


Yes, read it carefully.
It was an Australian, from the Canberra Times who quoted him and also noted ...
"Yet rationing takes place in most hospitals every day, even though it sometimes violates the principle of universal healthcare. Smokers, for example, generally don't receive organ donations, regardless of how long they've waited. Some surgeons won't replace a broken hip if the patient is in their 90s,"

Read more: http://www.smh.co...hYry1dVs
VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
I'll take the Australian system any day. So too would the Vast majority of Americans.

"According to Wells, rationing in Australia occurs informally. "If a hospital has a 90-year-old who needs a hip-replacement and they've also got a 40-year-old who needs one that would get them back into the workforce and being productive … the decision is made on the ground, by the providers."

Yet the bottom line is that the U.S. system rations health care in an even more fundamental way — by denying it altogether to people who are unable to purchase coverage. They may simply lack the money or be disqualified because they are already sick and thus too risky to insure." - What the U.S. can learn from Aussie health care
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 12, 2013
From Howard Dean about Obamcare death panels:
"By setting doctor reimbursement rates for Medicare and determining which procedures and drugs will be covered and at what price, the IPAB will be able to stop certain treatments its members do not favor by simply setting rates to levels where no doctor or hospital will perform them."

Read more: http://newsbuster...hYtQk35d
From the UK:
"As Professor Williams added in his original article, "improving the health of the nation as a whole is likely in some circumstances to discriminate indirectly against old people"."
http://www.hsj.co...7FhAUZRw
Williams was from York: http://www.thegua...s.health
VendicarE
1 / 5 (3) Oct 12, 2013
"NANCY PELOSI JOINS WOMEN'S HALL OF FAME" - Today's News

Poor RyggTard, his Conservative world view just isn't being respected by Reality.

The Lipton Tea-Leaf universe he finds himself in must be growing very cold and bitter for him. No amount of Sugary ConservaTard propaganda is making his unreal, reality more easy to stomach.

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Oct 12, 2013
"Forgive me if I fail to join the national worship of the NHS. Mencap has been campaigning to prevent these deaths, logging at least 100 cases over the past six years. The charity blames poor communication with parents and carers as the main cause – but it has concluded that the only explanation for so many preventable deaths is prejudice. Doctors and nurses reflect views prevalent across society that people with profound disabilities are second-class citizens, their lives not worth saving. Imagine the furore if any other minority group was dying in such numbers."
"A Cornish councillor has compared children like mine to deformed lambs, saying they could be dealt with at birth by "smashing them against a wall". "
http://www.thegua...P=twt_gu
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 12, 2013
"

A councillor who compared disabled children with deformed lambs that are dealt with at birth by "smashing them against a wall" is being investigated by police over his comments, it emerged.

Colin Brewer also claimed in an interview there were good arguments for killing some disabled babies with high support needs because of the cost of providing them with services."
"Disabled children should be put down': Cornwall councillor Collin Brewer to be investigated by police over controversial comments

Brewer apologised and resigned earlier this year after his comments but was re-elected earlier this month
"
http://www.indepe...097.html
Brits want post birth abortions to save money.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 12, 2013
"With no way to avoid the limits imposed on public care, nearly a quarter of general practitioners (24 percent) said they were more likely to suggest private care to their patients than previously. Two-thirds of British doctors agreed that NHS rationing was the driving reason for the move to "self-pay" medical services. In addition, 56 percent of doctors cited increased wait times as a factor.

The NHS is a single-payer healthcare system, the kind Obama once said he preferred. It is also the system lionized by former head of Medicare and Medicaid Services, Dr. Donald Berwick. However, the Affordable Care Act is not a single-payer system. Democrats attempted to create a "government option" which seemed designed to lead in that direction over time, but when it became a sticking point the administration abandoned it.

Nevertheless, there are still many Democrats who say they would like to see a system like the NHS in America."
Brieitbart, 2012
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 12, 2013
"Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery"
""It is slavery in a way because it is making all of us subservient to the government."

Carson said the implementation of the Affordable Care Act was never about health care, only control."
""Vladimir Lenin, one of the fathers of socialism and communism, said that socialized medicine is the keystone to the establishment of a socialist state," Carson stated."
http://washington...slavery/
VendicarE
2.4 / 5 (5) Oct 12, 2013
"Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery" -

But according to Dr. Carson it is just fine if your health care decisions are made for you by Corporate for-profit death panels.

Kookie.

How Republicans Are Denying Health Care To Millions Of Poor Black People And Single Mothers

http://thinkprogr...overage/

Filthy Republicans.
VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 12, 2013
"A councillor who compared disabled children with deformed lambs that are dealt with at birth by "smashing them against a wall" - RyggTard

And at the same time that RyggTard would prevent those deformed children from receiving health care, he and his Republican brothers in Crime would deny women the right to identify and abort the most severe of deformities.

http://www.secret...haly.jpg

http://escuela.me.../244.jpg

http://www.vetera...fect.jpg

http://dirtytrain...ujah.png

https://encrypted...2RUSX9wq

Filthy Republicans
djr
5 / 5 (3) Oct 12, 2013
Ryggy: "It was an Australian, from the Canberra Times who quoted him"

Who quoted him as promoting the death panels - the sentence is very clear - Ryggy just can't understand English. Here I will quote the sentence again. "Callihan is now aged in his 80s, but he believes firmly that the fairest and most effective way to ration public healthcare is to discriminate against the elderly" Callihan being the AMERICAN philosopher quoted by our friend Ryggy. I wonder why it bothers Ryggy so much that Australia and Sweden have better health systems than America......
VendicarE
2.2 / 5 (6) Oct 12, 2013
RyggTard doesn't have enough mental power to grow his own concern. He is concerned because in the words of Conservative Rush Limbaugh, he is a "ditto head", a useful idiot, who will tow the party line, and disseminate the party pro-corporate propaganda, even when it is strongly against his own best interest and the best interest of the American People.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
News from Australia:
"A union representing Queensland doctors in Australia has recommended an outrageous solution to a serious problem that is currently plaguing their health care system. Along with general staffing shortages, there is a major shortage of doctors and the current ones are overworked, overstressed and dead tired. There have been reports of medical staff being forced to work up to 80 hour shifts! There are also warnings that patients in public hospitals are dying as a result of these work conditions that often lead to sleep deprived doctors."

Read more: http://whymycount...hbCq7IGp
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
The 'liberal' FDR was opposed to unions for govt employees. One reason is FDR feared that these unions would undermine trust in the govt.
The US 'liberals' today take for granted that citizens trust in THEM, and their petty actions like trying to prevent people from seeing Mt. Rushmore, will motivate conservatives to acquiesce to the 'liberal's' demands.
Fortunately, more and more people are beginning to dis-trust govt and the leaders of that govt.
The actions of the conservatives in the House and Senate are exposing the true nature of the 'progressive' state, led by BHO and enabled by 'liberal' republicans.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
"Josh Vorhees of Slate combed through the transcript of Tuesday's performance and listed all of the things President Obama compared Republicans to, directly or indirectly, in just this one sitting.

He called them "actual kidnappers," "half kidnappers, half pranksters," "habitual hostage-takers," "video game-loving homeowners who demand perks for paying their mortgage," "homeowners irrationally choosing to be deadbeats," "potential home buyers turned would-be arsonists," "small business employees turned would-be arsonists," "butchers" and more."
" At Gettysburg, Pa., our government under Obama's leadership barricaded pull-offs on a public road just so people could not easily view the battlefield. People removed the "Barackades" and left behind notes stating: "Catch us if you can.""
http://www.review...me-do-it
djr
not rated yet Oct 13, 2013
Denmark has a really awesome - government run health care system - that provides better service, for 100 percent of it's citizens, and half the cost of the U.S. system. Your next project Ryggy is to research the Danish system - and spam our science site with reasons why you personally hate the socialists in Denmark.

http://www.denver...13261279

I wonder why it bothers Ryggy so much that Sweden, Australia, and Denmark have better, cheaper health care systems than the U.S.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
"Montana opened the nation's first clinic for free primary healthcare services to its state government employees. "
"A year later, the state says the clinic is already saving money."
"The state contracts with a private company to run the facility and pays for everything — wages of the staff, total costs of all the visits. Those are all new expenses, and they all come from the budget for state employee healthcare.

Even so, division manager Russ Hill says it's actually costing the state $1,500,000 less for healthcare than before the clinic opened."
http://www.npr.or...-success
Denmark has ~5.5 million people in an urban area about twice the size of MA.
So why does dj support Obamacare which is a national system?
During the Obamacare debate, opposition wanted states to have the freedom to do what MT has done, but 'liberal's wanted to force the flailing MA system on the whole country.
Gmr
1 / 5 (1) Oct 13, 2013
The desperation metric defined as the number of vehement, earnest sequential partisan posts by ryggesogn2 provides a good measure of how poorly his party is doing. When it's doing better, there isn't nearly the energy expenditure on disinformation and spin.

At 17/24 or .708 in this thread alone, it's reaching historic levels.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
"Although readiness to consider cost-quality trade-offs relevant to clinical decisions is prevalent among GPs in Denmark, only half of GPs would disclose to patients that they consider this relevant to their clinical decision-making. The results of this study raise two important ethical problems. First, under Danish law physicians are required to inform patients about all equal treatments. The fact that only a few GPs would inform their patients about all of the relevant treatments therefore seems to contravene Danish law. Second, it is ethically controversial that physicians act as economic gatekeepers."
http://link.sprin...63-8-192
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
The desperation metric defined as the number of vehement, earnest sequential partisan posts by ryggesogn2 provides a good measure of how poorly his party is doing. When it's doing better, there isn't nearly the energy expenditure on disinformation and spin.

At 17/24 or .708 in this thread alone, it's reaching historic levels.

The desperation metric? Yes, that explains the shrill AGW headlines on physorg.
"World top bankers warn of dire consequences if U.S. defaults"
http://www.reuter...20131012
"The media is probably overstating the magnitude of the shutdown's political impact."
"The impact of the 1995-96 shutdowns is overrated in Washington's mythology."
"Democrats face extremely unfavorable conditions in trying to regain the House."
http://www.grantl...shutdown
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
As Jeff Kuhner points out, there is so much 'liberal' bull $--t 4 hours on the radio each day is not enough.
1000 characters per post is not enough to counter the 'liberal' BS splatting on physorg.

"The Tea Party Is Winning—the Liberal Agenda Is Being Suffocated"
http://www.theatl.../279951/

djr
1 / 5 (1) Oct 13, 2013
So why does dj support Obamacare which is a national system?

Because it is an intelligent attempt at fixing what is understood by all to be a very broken system. Yeahhhh progress.
djr
1 / 5 (1) Oct 13, 2013
"It is slavery in a way because it is making all of us subservient to the government"

So by that metric - medicare is slavery. Try prying the medicare card from my arch conservative - dyed in the wool Republican father in law's hands - you will probably lose both your eyes in the process. He loves his medicare - as do 88% of medicare recepients - http://www.chaind...services

Wonder why it bothers Ryggy so much that socialist medical systems are better than the American system - and so popular among the program recipients.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
an intelligent attempt


" In remarks at the 2010 Legislative Conference for the National Association of Counties, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said, "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of controversy."
http://blog.herit...s-in-it/
"Right now, unless you and the Obama Administration enact an equitable fix, the ACA will … destroy the 40-hour work week that is the backbone of the American middle class.

Congress wrote this law; we voted for you. We have a problem; you need to fix it."
James Hoffa, president of Teamster's Union
http://vladimirda...e-light/

Really intelligent?

If you think Obamacare is intelligent, did you vote for Romney? Obamacare is based on Romneycare.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 13, 2013
"It is slavery in a way because it is making all of us subservient to the government"

So by that metric - medicare is slavery. Try prying the medicare card from my arch conservative - dyed in the wool Republican father in law's hands - you will probably lose both your eyes in the process. He loves his medicare - as do 88% of medicare recepients -

What? You disagree with a black man? dj must be racist.

"ObamaCare that was specifically designed to destroy Medicare, and to herd seniors into a one size fits all plan where care to them can be rationed with impunity. And even Dr. Donald Berwick, President Obama's personal choice to run Medicare and Medicaid admitted it's one of ObamaCare's ultimate aims, as did Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, one of the president's chief healthcare advisers."

Read more: http://www.americ...hcYKMbno
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook
BHO destroys Medicare.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 13, 2013
"Even intelligent leftists still don't realize what Obamacare has done to them. They might realize that ObamaCare cost them the 2010 midterms and that the hugely unpopular legislation is a rallying cry in this one. But they don't seem to realize yet that Medicare isn't their issue any longer."

Read more: http://www.americ...hcYr3opM
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook
Romney/Ryan plan saved Medicare and it sounds similar to the public/private plans dj likes.
Did dj vote for Romney?
djr
1 / 5 (1) Oct 13, 2013
What? You disagree with a black man? dj must be racist.

No - it makes Ryggy an idiot. How stupid to suggest such a thing.
djr
3 / 5 (2) Oct 13, 2013
Obamacare is based on Romneycare.

Which - ""I think it has been a huge success," says Michael Widmer, president of the Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation, an independent state watchdog"

http://www.forbes...-reform/

Like I said - Yeahhhhhh progress......
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Oct 13, 2013
"A two year old study from Urban Institute revealed that concerns over employers dropping coverage or scaling back benefits because of health reform have not been realized. "
That's false.
"Health care expenditures in the state are still growing more rapidly than wages and income, according to the Blue Cross Foundation."
When I was hired in 2005 in MA, we had 4 or 5 plans to choose from. We know have only two.

Scott Brown was elected to the Senate in 2010 from MA because he said he would not support Obamacare.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Oct 13, 2013
" Massachusetts has learned that coverage doesn't necessarily equate to access. This point was recently hammered home by a survey conducted by the Merritt Hawkins & Associates healthcare search and consulting firm, which found that Boston had some of the longest wait times to see a physician."
"To see a family practice physician, a patient in Boston needed to be patient. The wait is 63 days."
"When MinuteClinic first sought to open in Massachusetts, it requested waivers for state regulations that require an area for soiled linen storage, separate entrances for patients, minimum exam-room space, patient bathrooms with handwashing stations, and a separate reception desk.

When the Massachusetts Medical Society got wind of this one might say the soiled linen hit the fan."
"the convenient-care model is not a good fit for Boston with its network of 26 community health centers and its 12 teaching hospitals that provide primary-care service."
http://www.modern...090810/M
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
http://www.eenews.net/stories/1059988704/print

But there is enough money to pay National Park Service riot police to attack military veterans.
http://www.thebla...hington/

djr
1 / 5 (1) Oct 13, 2013
Wow - Ryggy promotes the Republican Romney care - and then when an article demonstrating that Romney care is highly effective, and popular is referenced - Ryggy reverses course - and starts digging for anti Romney care articles - what a hypocrite.

Wonder why it bothers Ryggy so much that socialist run health care systems are so effective and popular????
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
"The government's chief actuary for Medicare spending on Wednesday said he had more confidence that Republican Paul Ryan's plan to reform entitlements would drive down health-care costs than President Obama's recently passed overhaul.

Richard S. Foster, the chief actuary of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, made the comment in response to questions from lawmakers during House Budget Committee hearing.

Read more at http://patriotupd...GcOke.99

ALL socialist health care systems worry about the same thing, increasing costs.
Their system can do nothing to control costs so the only solution is to raise taxes and/or cut services, ration care.
Everyone likes 'free' stuff, but when govts run out of other people's money, how effective and popular will any health care system be?
I am not promoting Romney care, but if you think it so great, why didn't you support Romney?
ubavontuba
1 / 5 (9) Oct 13, 2013
They raped the land and killed minorities and the indigenous populations with impunity
Never lived out west have you.
Born and raised. Apparently you haven't though.
They've become the party of; "No."
Yes, the democrats have said NO negotiating our socialist policies.BHO did not win by much of a majority, and neither did the Senate. And the Senate added Cruz, a conservative in 2012.
More state legislatures and governors were picked up by republicans, some conservatives.
Soon the states will have the 2/3rds and 3/4th majority to amend the Constitution without Congress or the President.
Funny then the Republicans appear to be taking it in the shorts for holding the government hostage, isn't it?

ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
Why does dj claim he is not a socialist when he supports govt take over of health care?
"Ben Carson Warns: 'Socialized Medicine Is Keystone to Establishment of a Socialist State' - See more at: http://www.cnsnew...Tke.dpuf
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
Funny then the Republicans appear to be taking it in the shorts for holding the government hostage, isn't it?


Says who?
"NBC Nightly News anchor Brian Williams claims that, if it weren't for the government shutdown, his network would be offering more coverage of the ObamaCare launch debacle. "
http://www.breitb...ule-mess
"New York Times columnist David Brooks doubts that the partial government shutdown will cost the Republican Party its control of the House of Representatives, despite the indications from some polls that the GOP bears the brunt of the backlash.

Read more: http://dailycalle...heWxo15W
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
"But the story that no one is writing. or taking polls about, is red state Democrats. They are the ones who will actually be asking voters to reelect them. They will have to explain their votes for ObamaCare!

Where are all of these red state Democrats? What Sunday shows are they doing this week? Which one is defending ObamaCare along with Senator Reid or Senator Schumer? Which one is scheduling President Obama for a trip promothing ObamaCare?

They are not on TV defending their vote for ObamaCare or taking questions at candidate meeings in Arkansas, Alaska and so on.

They are hiding in their offices and avoiding Obama like a plague.

Read more: http://www.americ...heXjAtJ0
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 13, 2013
Born and raised. Apparently you haven't though.

I was born and raised in SD.
Lived in AZ, NV, UT for a while.
djr
5 / 5 (1) Oct 13, 2013
Why does dj claim he is not a socialist when he supports govt take over of health care?

Maybe dj is a pragmatist - and understands that when something is as broken as the U.S. health care system - something has to be tried. That is much better than Ryggy - the one without a moral compass - who does not care if 50 million citizens do not have health care - sickening.

Why does dj's father in law - who is a dyed in the wool conservative and Republican - love his medicare so much? Maybe pragmatics trumps ideology for intelligent people.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 13, 2013
Anti-socialism is spreading:
"Although a relatively minor election, the victory is a warning to both the Socialists and the UMP that Marine Le Pen's National Front may be turning into a party that speaks for the discontent of a population struggling with the highest unemployment in about 14 years and an economy that has struggled to grow over the last two years. "
http://www.bloomb...ion.html
- love his medicare so much?

Because he PAID taxes for it for decades and I would be damn sure I got my money out of the program, too. And he likely has not other choice.
djr
5 / 5 (1) Oct 13, 2013
Because he PAID taxes for it for decades and I would be damn sure I got my money out of the program, too. And he likely has not other choice.

So Ryggy does support socialism - good to know.

ubavontuba
1 / 5 (9) Oct 14, 2013
Born and raised. Apparently you haven't though.

I was born and raised in SD.
Lived in AZ, NV, UT for a while.
So then what's your excuse for being so ignorant of Western U.S. history? Maybe you think the indigenous populations were happy to starve from the willful and wholesale slaughter of their staple food supply (the buffalo) by entrepreneurs (the railroad)?

ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 14, 2013
"KATHRYN QUIRK THOUGHT it would be easy to find a new doctor when she moved from Boston to Newton in 2009, just like it was when she arrived in Boston in 1996. "
"It isn't 1996 anymore. Quirk still hasn't found a primary care doctor she feels comfortable with. Her quest sounds a lot like dating; in four years she's had three doctors and has sometimes preferred to get care from physician's assistants and nurse practitioners who work in those doctors' offices. "
"Quirk's woes reflect a broader problem in the Boston area: It's hard to get a doctor. "
"Across Massachusetts, about half of primary care doctors aren't taking new patients"
http://www.boston...ory.html
What good is medical insurance if there are no doctors or no doctors will take the insurance?
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 14, 2013
Because he PAID taxes for it for decades and I would be damn sure I got my money out of the program, too. And he likely has not other choice.

So Ryggy does support socialism - good to know.


Medicare is supposed to be 'insurance', and I would vote to end the entitlements yesterday. And if I have paid my hard earned money into a specific programs like SS and Medicare, I want what I paid for.
Maybe you think the indigenous populations were happy to starve

Aboriginal Americans didn't mind starving and murdering each other, so asserting the Sioux or any aboriginal American were victims is disingenuous.
BTW, the aboriginal Americans were quite pleased to have the horses the Spanish brought.
djr
5 / 5 (1) Oct 14, 2013
And if I have paid my hard earned money into a specific programs like SS and Medicare, I want what I paid for.

Like I said - Ryggy supports socialism - good to know.

I agree with the point about hard earned money - and wanting the government to respect how hard I have worked all my life - paying in to SS, Medicare, private retirement, and an investment account. This is why I am so discouraged at the Republicans - who are on record as wanting to take all that away from me - just to feed their childish ideology. It is just like Ryggy - 'I don't give a shit about any one else - as long as I get to push my ideology on to others' - makes me vomit.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 14, 2013
who are on record as wanting to take all that away from me -

Really?
What record is that?
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 14, 2013
The 'liberals' here think Joe Scarborough is conservative?
"Monday, after MSNBC's "Morning Joe" spent two about hours blasting the Tea Party, Sarah Palin, and Ted Cruz as bubbled, dangerous, and stupid -- in other words, a typical Monday on "Morning Joe" -- the show hosted Bill Ayers, the unrepentant domestic terrorist. "
http://www.breitb...ll-ayers

If so Dana Perino is correct:
""The Democrats and the liberals live in the biggest mainstream media bubble ever created in the history of the universe," "
http://www.breitb...Universe
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 14, 2013
And from the 'tolerant' 'liberals':
" Politico's chief political columnist Roger Simon wrote a column in which he suggested that Tea Partiers were racists, and that Speaker of the House John Boehner (R-OH) and Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX) deserved to die. "
"even if people like Simon are the ones calling for the deaths of public officials, it's the Tea Party that represents extremism."
http://www.breitb...ner-Cruz

Simon jumped the shark, he cried 'RACISM'.
VendicarE
1 / 5 (3) Oct 14, 2013
"Monday, after MSNBC's "Morning Joe" spent two about hours blasting the Tea Party, Sarah Palin, and Ted Cruz as bubbled, dangerous, and stupid." - RyggTard

"As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where– where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border." --Sarah Palin, explaining why Alaska's proximity to Russia gives her foreign policy experience, interview with CBS's Katie Couric, Sept. 24, 2008

"All of 'em, any of 'em that have been in front of me over all these years." --Sarah Palin, unable to name a single newspaper or magazine she reads, interview with Katie Couric, CBS News, Oct. 1, 2008

"'Refudiate,' 'misunderestimate,' 'wee-wee'd up.' English is a living language. Shakespeare liked to coin new words too. Got to celebrate it!'" --a Tweet sent by Sarah Palin in response to being ridiculed for inventing the word "refudiate," proudly mistaking her illiteracy for literary genius, July 18, 2010

Stupid? Yup!
VendicarE
1 / 5 (3) Oct 14, 2013
"Politico's chief political columnist Roger Simon wrote a column in which he suggested that Tea Partiers were racists, and that Speaker of the House John Boehner (R-OH) and Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX) deserved to die." - RyggTard

Actually, here is what he said...

http://www.youtub...eyEtki5A
djr
3 / 5 (2) Oct 14, 2013
"Stupid? Yup!"

Who you callin stupid? Ryggy can quote from very unbiased sources like Breitbart.....
kochevnik
2 / 5 (4) Oct 15, 2013
Three days until security state empire USA defaults. Will teapublicans notice or be too busy stroking their echo chambers? For sure they will decry the empty shelves at Wally Mart as an act of the liberals
ubavontuba
1 / 5 (9) Oct 15, 2013
Maybe you think the indigenous populations were happy to starve

Aboriginal Americans didn't mind starving and murdering each other, so asserting the Sioux or any aboriginal American were victims is disingenuous.
What a completely asinine thing to say.

BTW, the aboriginal Americans were quite pleased to have the horses the Spanish brought.
And aren't we happy to have the corn, the land, the resources and any number of other things taken from them?

Rationalization is a poor substitute for facts.

ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 15, 2013
d any number of other things taken from them?

Of course no aboriginal American ever killed other aboriginal Americans and invaded their territory for food.
The thousands sacrificed by Aztecs and Mayans were volunteers.
And Apaches never attacked their brother Pimas for food.
"The Battle of Pima Butte, or the Battle of Maricopa Wells, was fought on June 1, 1857 at Pima Butte, Arizona near Maricopa Wells in the Sierra Estrella. Yuma, Mohave, Apache and Yavapai warriors attacked a Maricopa village named Secate in one of the largest battles in Arizona's history. It was also the last major battle fought by the Yumans and the last major battle fought solely between native Americans in North America."
http://en.wikiped...ma_Butte
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 15, 2013
""the job of central planning is inherently impossible; even the smartest person can't do it."

But that's never deterred narcissistic technocrats willing to make plans for everyone else's life. They assume they know more than they do and believe they understand more than they are able to learn.

The natural outcome of this arrogance, as economist Friedrich Hayek told us, is that central planning will eventually lead to an authoritarian regime in which "the will of a small minority" is " imposed upon the people."

In other words, central planning is planned tyranny.

Read More At Investor's Business Daily: http://news.inves...hnKARUuF
Follow us: @IBDinvestors on Twitter | InvestorsBusinessDaily on Facebook
Modernmystic
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 15, 2013
I think it is important to be direct.


I one can be both civil and direct, adults understand they're not mutually exclusive.

When you treat a science board with the disrespect


Are you really lecturing ME about disrespect? Really??

And you were using it as an argument for why our system is more expensive than that of other countries. So by extension - you were saying that we do something that others don't - which is why our system is so much more expensive.


Yes, and yes.

Either way - you were being arrogant -


No I was being honest. It's not an insult to the poor to call a rich man rich.

Modernmystic
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 15, 2013

If I develop an instrument to measure individuals satisfaction with a particular system. I administer that instrument to two groups of people (asking them if they LIKE the system or not) - the results of that administration is objective data. That is done is science all the time.


You can objectively say they like their system, you can't objectively say it's BETTER simply because they feel a particular way. Others can and will and DO disagree...

To wit;

If I had a poll that said most Americans weren't in favor of gay marriage does that mean they're RIGHT?

Are you beginning to see my point about values and relativity and facts and objectivity?

It's a FACT that Swedish folks like their medical system, it's NOT a fact that that makes it better than other systems.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 15, 2013
"The intellectual romance with the clever Barack Obama continues. Having invested so much in candy and flowers, they must ignore all the evidence of being dumped.

His cultivated demeanor and carefully applied patina of synthetic sophistication, fraudulent as it may be, is what attracted the adoration of intellectuals from across the political spectrum in 2008, says Charles Murray, the social scientist and an intellectual with impressive books, studies and learned papers. He admits that he's a dumpee.

"It's kind of embarrassing to admit it," he tells an interviewer for the website Daily Caller, "but I responded in part to his rhetoric because he talks just like me.

Read more: http://www.washin...hoUjqCu8
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 15, 2013
"Having been to some big towns and heard some big talk, they were too smart by miles to be taken in by a smooth-talking butter and egg man from Chicago.

"It's not that I think he is not a patriot," says Mr. Murray, "but remember the line, he said, 'You didn't build that.' No American is going to think you can say that, no matter what your political views are, because it's just disastrous to say that. He is clueless about this country in some profoundly disturbing ways."
"How could he not be clueless about his native land, when he absorbed anti-American venom in his tender and formative years as a child in the Third World? He was deprived of the instincts and cultural intuitions that are the native son's birthright."
http://www.washin...agebreak
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 15, 2013
"No other American president in anyone's imagination would instruct the National Park Service to evict veterans of World War II, many arriving in wheelchairs or moving with unsteady gait on walkers and walking canes to see the long-awaited memorial to the celebration and sacrifice of their unselfish generation.

The veterans had run afoul of the instructions to the Park Service rangers to "make life as difficult for people as we can."

Then, only days later, thousands of illegal aliens were invited to rally for privilege and amnesty on the very soil where the veterans, American citizens all, were forcibly told they were not welcome."
"The fraud and misrepresentation recognized years ago by Joe Sixpack and his buddies is writ so large now that even an egghead can see it."
{Except by the 'liberals' here.}

Read more: http://www.washin...hoW8MEAy
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 15, 2013
"No other American president in anyone's imagination would instruct the National Park Service to evict veterans of World War II,

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp
But there was one 'progressive' president, Hoover, that sent in the US Army to evict WWI veterans.
kochevnik
2.1 / 5 (7) Oct 15, 2013
"No other American president in anyone's imagination would instruct the National Park Service to evict veterans of World War II,
But you stated that national parks are socialist
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 15, 2013
"No other American president in anyone's imagination would instruct the National Park Service to evict veterans of World War II,
But you stated that national parks are socialist

And the socialists would say the park belongs to the people so how could they support anyone ejecting people from the people's park?
kochevnik
1 / 5 (3) Oct 15, 2013
"No other American president in anyone's imagination would instruct the National Park Service to evict veterans of World War II,
But you stated that national parks are socialist

And the socialists would say the park belongs to the people so how could they support anyone ejecting people from the people's park?
Because there's a lien on the property as security to buyers of Tbills, arranged by Nixon
VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 15, 2013
"But there was one 'progressive' president, Hoover, that sent in the US Army to evict WWI veterans." - RyggTard

Hoover was a Republican of course.
VendicarE
1 / 5 (3) Oct 15, 2013
"And the socialists would say the park belongs to the people so how could they support anyone ejecting people from the people's park?" - RyggTard

With the same reasoning that allows people to be ejected from public buildings like court houses and post offices when they are closed.

The issue is one of public safety and the security of Public Property.

Poor RyggTard. What businesses do you know of that allow their customers to freely enter and exit their places of business after hours?

Yooze is Tee-Tard Stupid Boy.
VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 15, 2013
"No other American president in anyone's imagination would instruct the National Park Service to evict veterans of World War II" - RyggTard quoting the Washington Times

The Washington Times is a newspaper owned by Reverend Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church, through its company News World Communications. The paper was first published on May 17, 1982.

You know you are reading bat-shit-crazy stuff when you read the Moonie Times.

It is where RyggTard gets much of his bat-shit-crazy material.
VendicarE
1 / 5 (3) Oct 15, 2013
"It's a FACT that Swedish folks like their medical system, it's NOT a fact that that makes it better than other systems." - ModernMystic

Lower cost, healthier population.

That makes it better from a medical standpoint.

The U.S. medical system is better at fleecing the American People.

That makes it better from a business standpoint.

Which standpoint do you wish to support?
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 15, 2013
"But that's never deterred narcissistic technocrats willing to make plans for everyone else's life." - RyggTard

Are you under psychiatric supervision TardieBoy? Are your doctors planning your meals for you? Preventing you from pooping in the pool? Making you bathe? Telling you to get out and get some exercise?

You poor boy.

As a citizen of a first world socialist state I have vastly more freedom than you have or can even imagine to have.

I don't fear my fellow citizens.

You do.
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 15, 2013
"Of course no aboriginal American ever killed other aboriginal Americans and invaded their territory for food." - RyggTard

Is that the excuse you are using to absolve Americans from the murder of 8 million native Americans?

Couldn't Republican Neo-Nazi's use the same lame excuse to try to absolve conservative movements like NAZI'ism of it's similar death toll?

Poor RyggTard.. A Tea-Tard Fascist looking to excuse the mass genocide of his nation's history.

Filth.

ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Oct 15, 2013
Hoover was a 'progressive', which is why there were Hoovervilles.
"Herbert Hoover was in the Progressive Party
Herbert Hoover was a progressive republican in the progressive era, the same as Teddy Roosevelt.
Herbert Hoover raised taxes from 25% to 63%
Herbert Hoover started the "New Deal."
Herbert Hoover was recognized at the time as a progressive and self-proclaimed he was a progressive.
Herbert Hoover had the same platform and agenda as progressives during the time period. "

FDR usurped the term 'liberal' during the 1932 election to differentiate his socialism from Hoover's.
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 15, 2013
"Three days until security state empire USA defaults" - koch

Tic... Toc.... Tic... Toc

The TeaPublican goal is the destruction of America.

"We need to manufacture an (economic) crisis in order to assure that there is no alternative to a smaller government." - Jeb Bush - Impress Magazine 1995

I've been telling American Scientists for years that they should get out of the collapsing American State while they still have time.

Their time may be up unless the RepubliTards cut and Run.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Oct 15, 2013
Because there's a lien on the property as security to buyers of Tbills, arranged by Nixon

Fools and their money are soon parted.
VendicarE
2.6 / 5 (5) Oct 15, 2013
"Fools and their money are soon parted." - RyggTard

Fools who vote Repubican or TeaPublican are proof of that.
VendicarE
2.6 / 5 (5) Oct 15, 2013
"Hoover was a 'progressive'," - RyggTard

Hoover was a Republican of course...

Herbert Clark Hoover (August 10, 1874 – October 20, 1964) was the 31st President of the United States (1929–1933). Hoover, born to a Quaker family, was a professional mining engineer. He achieved American and international prominence in humanitarian relief efforts in war-torn Belgium and served as head of the U.S. Food Administration before and during World War I. As the United States Secretary of Commerce in the 1920s under Presidents Warren G. Harding and Calvin Coolidge, he promoted partnerships between government and business under the rubric "economic modernization". In the presidential election of 1928, Hoover easily won the Republican nomination, despite having no elected-office experience.

http://en.wikiped...t_Hoover
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 15, 2013
Looks like another loss for Tea-Publican Retards like RyggTard, in their plot to destroy their own nation through default, and decades of a depression economy.

Senate Leaders Near Deal to End Shutdown, Raise Debt Limit

Senate leaders say they are nearing a deal to reopen the federal government after two weeks of a partial shutdown. The draft measure would temporarily raise the nation's borrowing limit and fund the federal government, while setting a deadline to hash out a long-term spending plan. Democratic Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and his Republican counterpart, Mitch McConnell, praised each other on Monday.

RyggTard must be going through his depends diapers like there is a tomorrow.
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 15, 2013
Sen. Mitch McConnell: "Let me just echo the remarks of my good friend, the majority leader: (Harry Reid) We've had an opportunity over the last couple of days to have some very constructive exchanges of views about how to move forward."

Isn't Harry Reid Lucifer?

He is according to Faux news.
VendicarE
1.8 / 5 (4) Oct 15, 2013
Fitch Ratings, a credit rating agency, announced Tuesday that it was accelerating its timetable for a potential U.S. credit rating downgrade, among the first concrete effects of the standoff. If Fitch follows through, it would become the second credit rating firm to downgrade U.S. government debt, potentially triggering ripple effects across a range of financial markets.

"Political brinkmanship and reduced financing flexibility could increase the risk of a U.S. default," Fitch said late Tuesday. "The U.S. risks being forced to incur widespread delays of payments to suppliers and employees, as well as Social Security payments to citizens — all of which would damage the perception of U.S. sovereign creditworthiness and the economy."

Lower ranking = higher borrowing costs making it even less possible for the U.S. to maintain it's economy.

Bahahahahahahah.........

Loving every minute of America's attempt at Tea-Tard Suicide.
Howhot
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 16, 2013
Way - back @R2 quotes
The president can not create a bill.
...
The president is supposed to follow the Constitution. The Constitution requires that he MUST pay interest and principle on debt.
You tea wacks don't get it. It's not that *HE* MUST pay, its *WE* MUST pay. The president just signs bills into law, he doesn't create law.

In the mean time, how embarrassing it will be for you if your yahoo's in the tea-party don't increase the debt ceiling and and as a *minor* consequence ... tank the global economy for 10-20 years! That would be what @Vendicar calls " America's attempt at Tea-Tard Suicide." The lunatic conservative wing tanks the world economy.

We'll see tomorrow.


djr
5 / 5 (3) Oct 16, 2013
Modernmystic "It's a FACT that Swedish folks like their medical system, it's NOT a fact that that makes it better than other systems."

So when you use a term like 'better' - you have to define your term. This is what scientists do all the time.

So if one medical system was cheaper, covered 100% of the population, had excellent health outcomes, and was liked by it's members on an instrument that measures participant satisfaction - then that would be a pretty good OBJECTIVE set of criteria that could be used to define better. So no - I am not beginning to see your point.
VendicarE
2.6 / 5 (5) Oct 16, 2013
Where is the Tea Tard Spending Bill?

There isn't one.

Nothing to sign.

Responsibility = America's Tea Tard Morons.

http://www.youtub...wjvVaqyE
ubavontuba
1.4 / 5 (12) Oct 16, 2013
d any number of other things taken from them?

Of course no aboriginal American ever killed other aboriginal Americans and invaded their territory for food.
The thousands sacrificed by Aztecs and Mayans were volunteers.
And Apaches never attacked their brother Pimas for food.
"The Battle of Pima Butte, or the Battle of Maricopa Wells, was fought on June 1, 1857 at Pima Butte, Arizona near Maricopa Wells in the Sierra Estrella. Yuma, Mohave, Apache and Yavapai warriors attacked a Maricopa village named Secate in one of the largest battles in Arizona's history. It was also the last major battle fought by the Yumans and the last major battle fought solely between native Americans in North America."
http://en.wikiped...ma_Butte
More asinine rationalizations. Should it be okay then for another country to attack, bomb and pillage America because of all the conflicts we've engaged in?

Conservatives in America often claim to be Christians. Are you?

ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (12) Oct 16, 2013
uba, I agree Indians were and ARE being screwed by the US govt.
But any assertion they were some noble, indigenous people who were victims is false, AND very detrimental to Indians today.
he doesn't create law.

But BHO has laws he is supposed to follow and he has spending authority and discretion, like closing the WWII memorial to WWII vets. And BHO, by LAW, MUST pay all US govt debts. That is function of the executive, to execute laws. But, in the Regulatory State today, under the executive branch, they DO write laws.
tank the global economy for 10-20 years

The 'progressives' are doing a fine job of that NOW, and led the way in 1928.
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (6) Oct 16, 2013
So when you use a term like 'better' - you have to define your term. This is what scientists do all the time.


Better in terms of a better microscope, not better in terms of value judgements...

So if one medical system was cheaper,


It depends on WHY it's cheaper, it may or may not mean the other prices you pay are worth it to everyone involved. Again it's not as SIMPLE as you make it sound.

covered 100% of the population,


Again, it's cost benefit. To someone who already is very happy with their coverage this may be see as worse. Because YOU value it does not mean it's an OBJECTIVE value.

had excellent health outcomes,


Highly debatable, but for the sake of argument we'd AGAIN have to ask the question what is "excellent" and to whom...

liked by it's members on an instrument that measures participant satisfaction


Depends on what you mean by the word "like" and which questions were asked and how...again not that simple, nor objective...
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (8) Oct 16, 2013
AND finally we're still talking about a Swedish system, implemented in the Swedish culture, BY the Swedish government, FOR the Swedish people, which says NOTHING about how it will work here. Heck we're not even TALKING about implementing their system, we're talking about implementing a patchwork mess that FINES poor people for not having insurance. Ask the Swedish people how they feel about THAT....
Modernmystic
1.4 / 5 (9) Oct 16, 2013
I just have to say on a side note it never ceases to BAFFLE me that people who seem to understand the good things about being tolerant of other cultures and moreover learning about them and taking some of those lessons to heart can be so COMPLETELY ignorant and intolerant of other viewpoints within their OWN culture. You can do both...really you can...

It goes back to this whole civility thing we've been dancing around on this board. People will go out of their way to be civil to someone they have virtually nothing in common with...let's say an Islamic Theocrat, and yet will go on and on AND rail ENDLESSLY about people in their own country who have things in common with them oh like;

1. A free press
2. Representative government
3. Due process
4. Free speech
5. Separation of church and state (OK so some say it but don't MEAN it, but you better believe they mean it more than the Islamic Theocrat)

I could go on and on and on...
Neinsense99
2.1 / 5 (11) Oct 16, 2013
In other news, Russians question the sanity of the US Congress for playing 'American roulette' with the global economy....
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (10) Oct 16, 2013
In other news, Russians question the sanity of the US Congress for playing 'American roulette' with the global economy....


Careful, you wouldn't want to be called arrogant for suggesting something TRUE like the American economy has an IMMENSE impact on the world....
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (14) Oct 16, 2013
"Finally, five years after he first took office, even the Boston Globe has expressed disappointment in Obama's empty rhetoric.

A long piece by Matt Viser of The Boston Globe explains how year-by-year and issue-by-issue how President Obama has called for bipartisanship but said "no" to fulfilling that call.

Viser's charge is summed up near the end of his piece: "While [Obama] talks about bipartisanship, he has done little to act it out." "
http://www.breitb...isanship
Hell must be freezing.
Or....must the 'liberal' press now start bashing BHO so Hillary can appear untainted?
PeterParker
3 / 5 (6) Oct 16, 2013
Poor RyggTard. He and his fellow TeaPublican morons have been stabbed in the back again by sensible Republicans.

Why don't you TeaTard Pussies form your own party. I mean REAL party, not some fake party in name only.

Sniveling TeaTard Cowards.
kochevnik
1.7 / 5 (7) Oct 16, 2013
In other news, Russians question the sanity of the US Congress for playing 'American roulette' with the global economy....
China's official news agency has called for the creation of a "de-Americanised world", saying the destinies of people should not be left in the hands of a hypocritical nation with a dysfunctional government.

Heaping criticism and caustic ridicule on Washington, the Xinhua news agency called the US a civilian slayer, prisoner torturer and meddler in others' affairs, and said the 'Pax Americana' was a failure on all fronts.

The official news agency of China, which is seen as the pretender to the world's superpower crown, then rubbed in more salt, calling American economic pre-eminence just a seeming dominance.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (14) Oct 16, 2013
Would the Boston Globe have noted BHO bipartisanship failures had Cruz and company not taken a stand and showed the emperor had no clothes?
The 'liberals' have been hiding BHO naked lies for over six years. Why pull back the curtain now?
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (9) Oct 16, 2013
In other news, Russians question the sanity of the US Congress for playing 'American roulette' with the global economy....
China's official news agency has called for the creation of a "de-Americanised world", saying the destinies of people should not be left in the hands of a hypocritical nation with a dysfunctional government.

Heaping criticism and caustic ridicule on Washington, the Xinhua news agency called the US a civilian slayer, prisoner torturer and meddler in others' affairs, and said the 'Pax Americana' was a failure on all fronts.

The official news agency of China, which is seen as the pretender to the world's superpower crown, then rubbed in more salt, calling American economic pre-eminence just a seeming dominance.


Which is, to me, a perfect example of why a state run propaganda agency doesn't seem to be a good example for news dissemination, objectivity, or much of anything other than advancing repressive regime's control and editorializing...
ryggesogn2
1.1 / 5 (11) Oct 16, 2013
Boston Globe, Chicago Tribune, is NYT next?
"In a brutal editorial, President Obama's hometown newspaper, the Chicago Tribune, blasts Obama Care, and not just the crippling technical issues that have marred the launch. Getting to the heart of the debacle, the Tribune points to what much of the media won't: the fact that millions are going to lose the insurance and doctor Obama promised they could keep; and that Obama's signature legislation should probably cover therapy for sticker shock:"
http://www.breitb...wn-paper
ryggesogn2
1.1 / 5 (11) Oct 16, 2013
The CR is good for 90 days and the debt limit may last until Feb.
Just in time for primary challenges for Congress.
djr
5 / 5 (3) Oct 16, 2013
Modernmystic "...again not that simple, nor objective..."

I have explained to you over and over that it is objective. The indicators that I have outlined ARE objective. You talk of civility - but then practice deliberate obfuscation - that is unreasonable. Correct - Sweden and the U.S. are apples and oranges - but I was simply responding to Noumenon claiming that a government run health care program was automatically not as good as a private one. I have demonstrated that is not an accurate claim.
ryggesogn2
1.1 / 5 (13) Oct 16, 2013
a government run health care program was automatically not as good as a private one

It can't be science if it requires a value judgment.
As it is not scientific, it's not objective.
Howhot
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 17, 2013
a government run health care program was automatically not as good as a private one

It can't be science if it requires a value judgment.
As it is not scientific, it's not objective.


There isn't much more to add to that. The tea party just got into a cat fight and lost their teeth.
djr
3 / 5 (4) Oct 17, 2013
It can't be science if it requires a value judgment.

Different health care systems can be evaluated objectively.

Once again Ryggy shows a lack of understanding of the issue of science - and yet continues to spam a science web site with an uneducated opinion - and around and around we go.
VendicarE
3 / 5 (2) Oct 17, 2013
Tea Party Moron sentenced to 15 months in the American Gulag for threatening to murder Democrats.

http://hosted.ap....18-13-33
VendicarE
3 / 5 (2) Oct 17, 2013
"It can't be science if it requires a value judgment" - RyggTard

Is that why Libertarian/Randite Economic and social policies have been a disaster for America and Americans every time and everywhere they are implemented?

VendicarE
3 / 5 (2) Oct 17, 2013
"The CR is good for 90 days and the debt limit may last until Feb.
Just in time for primary challenges for Congress." - RyggTard

At which point you Tea Tard'ers will have your backsides kicked out of the Republican party again.

Your movement is growing increasingly hated by the American people.

VendicarE
4 / 5 (4) Oct 17, 2013
Fast Food Jobs cost the American Taxpayer 7 billion a year in subsidies for the poor.

"The taxpayer costs we discovered were staggering," said Ken Jacobs, chair of UC Berkeley's Center for Labor Research and Education and coauthor of the report. "People who work in fast-food jobs are paid so little that having to rely on public assistance is the rule, rather than the exception, even for those working 40 hours or more a week."

Fast food is a $200 billion-a-year industry. The median wage for core front-line workers at fast-food restaurants nationally is $8.69 an hour. Only 13 percent of the jobs provide health benefits.

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp

It occurs to me that corporations paying less than the minimum wage are not paying enough to maintain their workforce and are parasites on society who must make up the difference.

VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 17, 2013
"China's official news agency has called for the creation of a "de-Americanised world", saying the destinies of people should not be left in the hands of a hypocritical nation with a dysfunctional government."

American Capitalism is dead.

Everyone who has more than a couple of brain cells to rub together - and this excludes Republicans of course - sees American Capitalism as the spectacular failure that it is, and sees America as a nation destroyed by the corrupt excesses of that Capitalism.

Only fools will follow the American model into the sewer and down the drain.
VendicarE
2 / 5 (4) Oct 17, 2013
"TRUE like the American economy has an IMMENSE impact on the world" - MysticalTard

So does Genital Herpes.
VendicarE
3 / 5 (4) Oct 17, 2013
"AND finally we're still talking about a Swedish system, implemented in the Swedish culture, BY the Swedish government, FOR the Swedish people"

Sad isn't it that American health care is implemented in the American Culture by American health care Corporations for American Health care corporations.

See the difference?

nowhere
5 / 5 (2) Oct 17, 2013
Better in terms of a better microscope, not better in terms of value judgements...

Value judgments can be evaluated just as easily as a microscope's functionality.

It depends on WHY it's cheaper, it may or may not mean the other prices you pay are worth it to everyone involved. Again it's not as SIMPLE as you make it sound.

Here you argue subjective values. That it's not cheaper for every individual does not affect the objective fact that it's cheaper for the majority, and therefore better overall.

"covered 100% of the population,"

Again, it's cost benefit. To someone who already is very happy with their coverage this may be see as worse. Because YOU value it does not mean it's an OBJECTIVE value.

It is in fact objective because the majority value it over the individual someone, who's option is subjective in that he is only concerned with his benefits.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Oct 17, 2013
cheaper for the majority, and therefore better overall.

What about the quality of the care? Some live, some die, some are treated well, some are not. How is the quality of care, measured?
The tea party just got into a cat fight and lost their teeth.

Really?
The 'liberal' Boston Globe and BHO's hometown paper, and even CBS are slamming Obamacare. A small crack in a dam takes time to propagate.
Also, the 'libs' didn't solve anything. The fight will begin again prior to the 2014 election, as planned by BHO. 'Libs' think they will win the House by making people suffer. Trouble is, most know where the blame lies, the White House.
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (8) Oct 17, 2013
I have explained to you over and over that it is objective. The indicators that I have outlined ARE objective.


No they are measurements of the veracity of subjective values held and indicators which inherently require a subjective evaluation by human beings because they are human created values...not laws of nature.

You talk of civility - but then practice deliberate obfuscation


Deliberate obfuscation would be me recognizing that calling something humans do "better" than not doing something else is subjective and passing it off as objective. I still get that you can't grasp the difference so neither of us is guilty of that.

...claiming that a government run health care program was automatically not as good as a private one. I have demonstrated that is not an accurate claim.


You haven't demonstrated any such thing, and neither has he, because neither of you CAN. Health care systems simply ARE objectively, "good" or "bad" doesn't enter the picture objectively.
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (7) Oct 17, 2013
Value judgments can be evaluated just as easily as a microscope's functionality.


You can evaluate them all you want, it doesn't make them true.

Here you argue subjective values. That it's not cheaper for every individual does not affect the objective fact that it's cheaper for the majority, and therefore better overall.


That you say it's better overall doesn't make it actually the objective truth, that's just you stating your opinion on the subject. Utilitarian morality is just that, it's not the first law of thermodynamics...and moreover as an ethical framework can be shown to be inconsistent with it's own premises so it's not even a very consistent opinion.

It is in fact objective because the majority value it over the individual someone, who's option is subjective in that he is only concerned with his benefits.


The majority's opinions are just as subjective and arbitrary...numbers of opinions don't change their subjective nature one nit.
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (7) Oct 17, 2013
Basically I get that you are all stating your preferences, and a lot of you are having difficulty understanding that YOUR preferences are not EVERYONE'S preferences. It's a difficult concept to accept and own. It's scary. If you do it you'll live life a LOT lighter though, trust me on that one.

There's nothing wrong with having preferences and values, in fact humans can't really operate in a society without them. Understanding that your values are just yours, that they aren't threatened by someone else holding another set, and understanding that you may not get your way AND being OK with ALL that is a good sign that you're probably over 40 and starting to get some healthy perspective.

Your perspective is very important to you and it's good to be passionate about, but it ISN'T THE truth, it's simply YOUR truth ;)
kochevnik
1 / 5 (7) Oct 17, 2013
When governments are in financial default, they limit capital controls

After that, governments typically seize government pension funds, meaning the outright theft of pensions for cops, government workers, etc., may happen

Finally, the last act of desperation by governments facing financial default is to seize private funds from banks, Cyprus-style. The precedent for this has already been set in Cyprus, and when that happened, I predicted it would spread to the United States. Now Chase Bank has moved to limit cash withdrawals while banning business customers from sending international wire transfers from November 17 onwards, prompting speculation that the bank is preparing for a looming financial crisis in the United States. International wire transfers are banned and cash withdrawals will be limited.

Implosion USA continues
Modernmystic
1.1 / 5 (10) Oct 17, 2013
When governments are in financial default...


If that's what was in actual danger of happening. What was going to happen was a refusal to expand credit, which is not the same as defaulting on a current debt or failure to pay interest on a debt owed OR meeting current financial obligations for services rendered.

In fact if there had been a refusal to expand credit then, perhaps, the United States government would finally limit spending. Much like a teenager will throw a fit when you refuse to lend them yet MORE money and "force" them to start living within their means. Throwing a hissy fit isn't bad for the teenager, in fact it's what helps them grow up...
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Oct 17, 2013
"The insurance industry is sounding the alarm too. Cigna has told brokers in the four federal exchange states it's selling policies not to even attempt to sell subsidized insurance before next month. There are multiple reports of serious problems with the industry end of the exchange tech, with the system relaying multiple enrollment and unenrollment notices for the same individual—and without the timestamps that might help insurers understand which action was the user's final one."
"t's no wonder the administration is suddenly so disinclined to talk about Obamacare's faltering exchanges. The rollout so far has proven it both incompetent and untrustworthy. "
http://reason.com...saster/1
Do the 'liberals' believe that the system they created is so bad, the govt (they, the 'liberals' who fouled up the first attempt) will have to scrap it and grab more control? Which is what they want in the first place.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.5 / 5 (8) Oct 17, 2013
Do the 'liberals' believe that the system they created is so bad, the govt (they, the 'liberals' who fouled up the first attempt) will have to scrap it and grab more control?
Typical religionist thinking. 'The other side doesnt (yet) have all the answers so this means we were right all along.' It WILL work ryggy despite all the trouble you guys want to make. You all made the same stink about social security and medicare and universal auto insurance, and the restored union right after the civil war. Those things worked out ok didnt they?

The industry is being changed of necessity. One good pandemic or bioterrorist act will prove the need to provide coverage for everybody.

A shortage of doctors will force the devt of robotics and AI for diagnosis and routine surgery. The existing system could never accommodate these improvements because they cant provide short-term profits and they threaten the old guard professionals.
VendicarE
3 / 5 (2) Oct 17, 2013
"How is the quality of care, measured?" - RyggTard

Life Expectancy.

If your claim is that you have no measure for the quality of medical care then you should defer to the medical care with the lower cost.

The cost of U.S. health care is the highest in the world. So even on that measure the U.S.
"system" is a failure.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Oct 17, 2013
O Canada!
" My family was taught to believe in socialized medicine. It was all we had, but we liked the idea of "free" coverage for all. We often criticized the American system as less compassionate, at least until we saw both firsthand. We believed that a government-based system was more caring for the poor and needy but found just the opposite was true."

"His doctor told us only one drug would save his life that night. The problem was that dad needed to be "approved" but the government office didn't open until the next morning. As dad lay bleeding to death, we were frantically trying to find a way to get this drug. We begged to pay privately, but the bureaucrats told us it would not be "fair" to sell it because others might not afford it."
"We found that socialized medicine not only creates one healthcare system for the rich and another for the poor, but also provides an inferior product for everyone."
http://dailycalle...ystem/2/
VendicarE
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 17, 2013
"My family was taught to believe in socialized medicine." - Quotes RyggTard

Bahahahah... Oh what a story. Incompetent doctors, dirty hospitals, Gloves not being changed between patients, Private caches of magic drugs, etc. etc. etc.

You have posted a link to a fraudulent story TardieBoy and don't have the brain power to realize it for yourself.

What evidence do you have that the story of this woman is true, when her motivation is clear, the destruction of the Canadian health care system?

The author of this fraud piece is Leigh Biltis (alias Sheri Leigh Nyveen) is a board member at Checks & Balances www.ChecksAndBalancesAZ.com, where she fights against government-run healthcare. Now living in ScottsDale Arizona Scottsdale, AZ 85266
****** N 67th Way with her two boys.

http://ak.t2.tile...&n=z

I see that the author made two $2.500 political donations to this man...

http://www.youtub...Ak6YOiYo
djr
4.5 / 5 (2) Oct 17, 2013
Modernmystic "You haven't demonstrated any such thing" Yes I did - with an explanation of what constitutes objective data - it seems you are not capable of understanding the point - which is fine - time to let it drop.
Howhot
3 / 5 (2) Oct 17, 2013
The tea party just got into a cat fight and lost their teeth.

Really?
The 'liberal' Boston Globe and BHO's hometown paper, and even CBS are slamming Obamacare. A small crack in a dam takes time to propagate.
Also, the 'libs' didn't solve anything. The fight will begin again prior to the 2014 election, as planned by BHO. 'Libs' think they will win the House by making people suffer. Trouble is, most know where the blame lies, the White House.
Really? The Red-state Kentucky setup their own exchange called Kynect that is working very well. The states that are having trouble are the ones that sat on their hands and refused to participate.
VendicarE
2.5 / 5 (2) Oct 18, 2013
Polling reveals that Republicans 'biggest losers' in shutdown aftermath

Thanx Tea-Tards You must be so proud of yourselves.

http://www.france...e-senate

Tea-Tarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrds

I would like to thank the Koch brothers for creating the Tea-Party and helping destroy the Republicans and the American state.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Oct 18, 2013
The states that are having trouble are the ones that sat on their hands and refused to participate.

And the ones the federal govt is running because the states refused the federal coercion.
Obamacare is all about coercion.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Oct 18, 2013
Why should anyone trust personal data to people with no background checks?

"Navigators are hired to guide people into the recently launched Obamacare exchanges, which involves the handling of sensitive personal information.

Kansas State Senator Mary Pilcher-Cook — the Republican chairwoman of the Senate Public Health and Welfare Committee — has announced that she will introduce legislation to require background checks and licensing of all Affordable Care Act (ACA) navigators in Kansas.

Read more: http://dailycalle...i4MGKPWj
"The only Obamacare navigator in Lawrence, Kan., helping people sign up for health insurance under the Affordable Care Act has an outstanding warrant for her arrest."http://www.bizpac...nt-85253
A criminal enterprise, Obamacare, hires criminals. No surprise.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (11) Oct 18, 2013
"The White House and its press corps have come to a consensus that the recent shutdown/debt limit debate was a "manufactured crisis"-"
"President Barack Obama and the Democrats could easily have averted a crisis if they had been willing to compromise, and second because forcing such confrontations has been their strategy since 2011. "
"Throughout 2013, there had been plenty of time to deal with fiscal issues. But while the House and Senate passed parallel budgets (the Senate for the first time in years), "
http://www.breitb...e-Crisis
VendicarE
2.5 / 5 (2) Oct 18, 2013
"Obamacare is all about coercion." - RyggTard

No, it is about having America fulfill one requirement (healthcare) in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Poor RyggTard is the enemy of Liberty.
VendicarE
2.8 / 5 (4) Oct 18, 2013
"Why should anyone trust personal data to people with no background checks?" - RyggTard

You mean like trusting personal data with Store Cashiers, Bank Tellers, Priests, Doctors, Gas Station attendants, etc. etc. etc.

Haven't you ever passed your credit card to a store Cashier, Given an unnamed person your credit card pin number for an on line purchase, etc, etc, etc.

VendicarE
2 / 5 (3) Oct 18, 2013
"Navigators are hired to guide people into the recently launched Obamacare exchanges, which involves the handling of sensitive personal information." - RyggTard

Then don't use the government exchanges, and keep your existing insurance program and company, where you give your personal information to them.

Poor RyggTard. He spends his worthless life whining, bitching and moaning about nothing.

Pathetic loser.

VendicarE
2.3 / 5 (3) Oct 18, 2013
"The White House and its press corps have come to a consensus that the recent shutdown/debt limit debate was a "manufactured crisis"-"

Yup. Manufactured by the Tea Tards.

You morons didn't really think you would be permitted to push the nation into a decades long Economic Depression did you?

If you did, you are dumber than humanly possible.

ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (10) Oct 19, 2013
"focus on what the majority of Americans sent us here to do — and that's grow this economy.""
http://www.politi...330.html
Why start now? BHO has actively destroyed the economy for 5 years. Why will he change anything now?
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Oct 19, 2013
"it began when the Democrats in the Senate abandoned their responsibility to produce budgets early in the Obama administration. Regular order went out the window as Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid tried to shield his fellow Democrats from having to vote, year in and year out, for higher spending as unemployment and the federal debt rose."
"The current threat of a shutdown exists because neither chamber fulfilled its responsibilities under the Congressional Budget Act to produce the spending authorization and appropriations bills required by law"
"The idea that the White House takes its obligations seriously is laughable. The president' budget was delivered to Congress a month late. The Democrat-controlled Senate dithered over it while the Republicans in the House worked up their own version."
"Obama and Reid want a shutdown – unless they get everything they want. That means not just the survival of Obamacare but the busting of the spending caps "
USNews.com
kochevnik
1.5 / 5 (8) Oct 19, 2013
When governments are in financial default...
@MM If that's what was in actual danger of happening. What was going to happen was a refusal to expand credit, which is not the same as defaulting on a current debt or failure to pay interest on a debt owed OR meeting current financial obligations for services rendered.
In fact the Treasury was down to $35billlion. The US government eats though $10billion every day. Had a budget not been signed Wednesday, the US would have defaulted on Thursday

"America is not the country you think she is, not anymore. She is a sinking ship … an empire in its death throes … a former supermodel wasted by too many cocaine-and-vodka benders who refuses to acknowledge that she's no longer super – nor a model"

Burdened by more than $125 trillion in debt, the tax system is broken. The education system is broken. The welfare system is broken. The political system is broken. The monetary system is broken. America is broken
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Oct 19, 2013
he US would have defaulted on Thursday

No, it would not.
It would have forced the govt to cut spending, but it is against the law for the administration NOT to pay interest on debt.
BHO and the other 'liberals' do NOT want to cut any spending and whined when BHO's sequester became law.
Instead of cutting spending responsibly, BHO tried to cut spending in areas that would impact the most people and show them how dependent they are on him.
If the US is in such bad shape, why do so may still buy US debt?
Like every country, the US finances its debt by inflating its fiat currency.
kochevnik
1.7 / 5 (6) Oct 19, 2013
he US would have defaulted on Thursday

No, it would not.
If you have no money and must make a payment to creditors, you have defaulted ryggie. That payment was scheduled for Thursday. Since when have you noticed US politicians obeying the law when it doesn't serve them?
Instead of cutting spending responsibly, BHO tried to cut spending in areas that would impact the most people and show them how dependent they are on him.
Why not cut out the military? They are useless to the economy and waste a $trillion every year.
If the US is in such bad shape, why do so may still buy US debt?
Because energy is required to be purchased in petrodollars via an arrangement between Nixon and a then small cabal in Saudi Arabia who seized the throne and wanted to keep it
Like every country, the US finances its debt by inflating its fiat currency.
Not in the east, which buys gold while you sell it in the west. Every superpower in history has owned the most gold
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Oct 19, 2013
If you have no money and must make a payment to creditors, you have defaulted

Who are creditors to the USA? Those who own bonds.
There was plenty of revenue to pay creditors.
Not increasing the US credit limit would NOT have led to any default, unless the president broke the law by NOT paying those who are due interest and principle on the debt.

Why not cut out the military?

The Russian, Indian, and Chinese navy will do a great job of keeping the free flow of oil and other trade at market prices.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Oct 19, 2013
"One of the nation's top credit-rating agencies says that the U.S. Treasury Department is likely to continue paying interest on the government's debt even if Congress fails to lift the limit on borrowing next week, preserving the nation's sterling AAA credit rating."
""The debt limit restricts government expenditures to the amount of its incoming revenues; it does not prohibit the government from servicing its debt. There is no direct connection between the debt limit (actually the exhaustion of the Treasury's extraordinary measures to raise funds) and a default."
http://freedomsli...t-10913/
VendicarE
2.5 / 5 (2) Oct 19, 2013
"Who are creditors to the USA?" - RyggTard

Educate yourself, Fool.

http://advisorper...ig-1.gif
kochevnik
2 / 5 (4) Oct 19, 2013
"One of the nation's top credit-rating agencies says that the U.S. Treasury Department is likely to continue paying interest on the government's debt even if Congress fails to lift the limit on borrowing next week, preserving the nation's sterling AAA credit rating."
Oh you mean those American credit agencies that separate credit from risk? The ones that declare a pile of steaming crap to be "recollateralized" as AAA? Credit agencies are the whores that caused the 2008 crisis
The Russian, Indian, and Chinese navy will do a great job of keeping the free flow of oil and other trade at market prices.
Your military makes the cost of your petrol about the same price as Dom Perignon. Is that a 'market price', ryggie?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Oct 19, 2013
"since 2010, Republicans for the most part reserved the Bush tax cuts with the exception of the highest earners, while slashing government spending via the sequester. These victories should not go uncounted.

Widespread counter-punching between Democrats and Republicans over the debt ceiling are here to stay. The fight started, and the next round is on February 7th. "
http://www.breitb...al-fight
VendicarE
2.5 / 5 (2) Oct 19, 2013
"There was plenty of revenue to pay creditors." - RyggTard

Not if you wanted to keep the economy out of a full blown depression. And once you trigger
one of those, there goes your "plenty of money to pay creditors."

But that is the Tea-Tard goal isn't it RyggTard, to bring another 30 year Economic Depression to America?

Most Americans realize this and that is why Tea-Publicans like yourself are correctly considered traitors.

VendicarE
2.5 / 5 (2) Oct 19, 2013
"Republicans for the most part reserved the Bush tax cuts with the exception of the highest earners" - RyggTard

Meaningless non-English, gibberish
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Oct 19, 2013
"Charitable hospitals that treat uninsured Americans will be subjected to new levels of scrutiny of their nonprofit status and could face sizable new fines under Obamacare"
"Charity for the uninsured is one of the factors that could discourage enrollment in Obamacare,"

Read more: http://dailycalle...iDfufLXw

BHO wants charity to be illegal as it undermines his socialist state.
Neinsense99
1.6 / 5 (7) Oct 20, 2013
5 Myths About Canada's Health Care System
http://www.pnhp.o...e-system
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Oct 21, 2013
"The man under FBI investigation for making violent threats against Texas Republican Sen. Ted Cruz was inspired to encourage violence by Democratic Party messaging efforts.

Troy Gilmore, Jr., who identifies himself as having served in the U.S. Navy, is under FBI investigation for possible violent threats on Twitter against Republican senator Cruz. The FBI has communicated with Gilmore as part of the investigation and is monitoring for possible violence inspired by Gilmore's online writings.

Read more: http://dailycalle...iOla6yQM
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Oct 21, 2013
"under the laws of Ontario, Canada's most populous province, a group of government-appointed adjudicators could yet overrule the family's choice. That tribunal, not the family or the doctors, has the ultimate power to pull the plug.

In other words: Canada has death panels."
http://www.slate....ing.html

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Oct 21, 2013
"campaign cash and lobbying contracts now function as "protection money" to keep lawmakers and regulators from going after you.

"It's what you expect from the mafia," said Plank. "They basically come to you and say, 'We are going to shove this bat up your ass and give you an enema. You better play ball.' We saw a great deal of it. It's an insidious blight." "
"hose who disagreed with me politically used thug-like tactics to try to bankrupt my family with frivolous lawsuits in Alaska, and it hasn't stopped to this day. "
http://www.breitb...xtortion
Kudos for CBS and 60 Minutes for showing this. This is noting new of course for a Regulatory, Fascist state. Bill Gates discovered this when Clinton attacked him and the 'progressive' state attacked Rockefeller over 100 years ago.
This is the essence of the 'progressive'/socialist state.
Regulatory intimidation is used by the surveillance state to suck up all your data.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Oct 21, 2013
"Congress Charges Secret Fee to Land Top Committee Spots"
http://www.breitb...ee-Spots

Now we know why Cruz and Lee have been attacked so viciously by everyone in the Senate. The threaten the power structure.
Howhot
5 / 5 (2) Oct 21, 2013
"Congress Charges Secret Fee to Land Top Committee Spots"
http://www.breitb...ee-Spots
Now we know why Cruz and Lee have been attacked so viciously by everyone in the Senate. The threaten the power structure.

The reason Cruz and Lee have/are being attacked is because they are *DICKS*. Cruz is stupid and dido to Lee and the tea party wing, your included @R2. They have absolutely nothing to add to American prosperity, it's development or it's greatness. They just tear down everything (as you do) and claim you don't have enough freedom. It's the liberals fault. Too much regulation, to much taxes and too much government regulation.
Well @R2, knuckle dragging is no excuse for the assault you (and your political buds) put on the American people and the good name, faith and credit of people supporting America via bond and American financial instruments. Everyone in the RIGHTWING should be fired!!!
VendicarE
4.5 / 5 (2) Oct 21, 2013
"Congress Charges Secret Fee to Land Top Committee Spots" - RyggTard

Purchasing committee positions IS NOTHING BUT PURE CAPITALISM.

Suddenly RyggTard is opposed to Caapitalism.

Bahahahahahahaha.....

What a moron.....
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Oct 22, 2013
"But Friedrich Hayek has this much going for him: He understood that the challenge of technocratic planning is always limited information. "The peculiar character of the problem of a rational economic order is determined precisely by the fact that the knowledge of the circumstances of which we must make use never exists in concentrated or integrated form but solely as the dispersed bits of incomplete and frequently contradictory knowledge which all the separate individuals possess."

Which is why planning tends to fail, particularly in highly complex systems. "This is not a dispute about whether planning is to be done or not," Hayek said. "It is a dispute as to whether planning is to be done centrally, by one authority for the whole economic system, or is to be divided among many individuals."

Read more: http://www.realcl...iS5b2Y8C
Follow us: @RCP_Articles on Twitter
VendicarE
5 / 5 (1) Oct 22, 2013
But Friedrich Hayek is a moron who presumes in all of his economic reasoning that consumers are perfectly rational actors who have perfect knowledge of the products they purchase and have the ability to exactly select the best product that matches their exacting selection criterion.

Sorry Tardieboy , but the REAL WORLD doesn't work like that.

And as Americans like you, grow ever more Stupid, your ability to select what is best for you in the marketplace has rapidly declined.

You Morons can't even be trusted to vote in your own best interest.

Bahahahahahaha.. T-Tarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd

VendicarE
2.5 / 5 (2) Oct 22, 2013
So tell us RyggiTard, why are you against Pure Capitalism in the selection of Politicians and the selection of Politicians for Cabinet Positions?

Explain yourself, Lowlife.
VendicarE
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 22, 2013
RyggTard has been posting here for years, and I have (NEVER) seen him post anything constructive.

He never has any real solutions to problems.
He never offers any positive suggestions.
He regularly contradicts himself.
He never answers questions.

He is regularly caught lying, and he lives in a Tea-Tard fantasy land.

He is a LOW IQ whiner. Nothing more than your classic - brain dead - Tea-Publican.
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (8) Oct 22, 2013
Modernmystic "You haven't demonstrated any such thing" Yes I did - with an explanation of what constitutes objective data - it seems you are not capable of understanding the point - which is fine - time to let it drop.


I agree it's time to let it drop, but objectively saying people in fact hold subjective opinions on this or that subject doesn't mean that the CONTENT of those opinions is objective. Moreover you can pick and chose what's valuable to YOU in any given health care system but it's hubris to suggest that such values are OBJECTIVE. They are not, they are created by human beings just like religion, culture, and indeed the very concept of a healthcare system and therefore by definition are subjective....period.
Neinsense99
1.5 / 5 (8) Oct 22, 2013
In this BBC story, Venezuela seems to be doing better at 'the war on drugs' than the USA.
http://www.bbc.co...24618087
The focus of this story is the downing or other interdiction of aircraft apparently associated with drug trafficking.
(Right-wing angst in three... two... one...)
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Oct 22, 2013
Another example of 'liberal' racism:
"Democratic congressman Alan Grayson of Florida used an image of a burning cross to spell "Tea Party" in a recent fundraising email:"
http://www.weekly...510.html
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (7) Oct 22, 2013
In this BBC story, Venezuela seems to be doing better at 'the war on drugs' than the USA.
http://www.bbc.co...24618087
The focus of this story is the downing or other interdiction of aircraft apparently associated with drug trafficking.
(Right-wing angst in three... two... one...)


Because it's important to do well in that war....

I actually prefer continuing to have more people in prison than China. I think a few hundred thousand more should just tip the scales and our streets will be drug free.

Much like just a few more billions of dollars will fix education, healthcare, and social security....
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Oct 22, 2013
"Stewart dedicated the entire first 10 minutes of his show — three full segments — on Monday to slashing hits on the Web site and the president's handling of the problems. He compared Obama to "Gil", the hapless salesman from "The Simpsons", showed "Daily Show" correspondent John Oliver stuck in a computer after trying to sign up for Obamacare and expressed amazement that even the calculator on the healthcare.gov Web site doesn't work. "
http://www.washin...problem/
nowhere
1 / 5 (1) Oct 23, 2013
but objectively saying people in fact hold subjective opinions on this or that subject doesn't mean that the CONTENT of those opinions is objective.

Unless of course the subjective opinions form a concensus for a specific subject, in which case we have the objective opinion of the people.

Moreover you can pick and chose what's valuable to YOU in any given health care system but it's hubris to suggest that such values are OBJECTIVE.

Hence why we don't care about your values that only benefit you, but rather the majority values that benefit the most, most equally. That is objective.

by definition are subjective....period.

Yes individual values are subjective, a concensus of values is objective.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (9) Oct 23, 2013
"When the GOP suggested President Obama delay the individual mandate for a year, the media brought out the pitch forks and torches while screaming, "Freak! Racist! Extremist! Arsonist! Anarchist!" But now that a reality is fast-approaching that could see people fined/taxed for not buying ObamaCare through websites that don't work, Jonathan Chait's New York Magazine is joining the FreakyRacistExtremist brigade by suggesting a delay of the individual mandate:"
http://www.breitb...te-delay
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Oct 23, 2013
"A belief in science and technology is as central to liberalism as spiritual faith is on the right. That's not to say that there aren't lots of religious liberals, but just that the devotion to "progress" is the central aim of the political movement for more than a century.

How crushing, then, that the most liberal president of all time would oversee the most notable technological failure by the federal government, perhaps ever."
http://www.foxnew...iberals/
Too bad the 'liberals' didn't follow Carl Popper when he demonstrated Marxism is not based upon science.
Modernmystic
1.4 / 5 (7) Oct 23, 2013
Unless of course the subjective opinions form a concensus[sic] for a specific subject, in which case we have the objective opinion of the people.


How do numbers make something subjective. We have a consensus in this country that Jesus Christ is the savior of man and a God incarnate. Be clear here...does this make that viewpoint TRUE?

Hence why we don't care about your values that only benefit you, but rather the majority values that benefit the most, most equally. That is objective.


It's objective that you don't share the same values as mine. It isn't objective that because the majority thing one thing or another it makes it objective or true or more valid in any way at all except for it's more likely to be implemented. Says NOTHING about it's moral or objective veracity. Define benefit here objectively, oh and you can't use your subjective opinion in the definition that's called circular logic.

Modernmystic
1 / 5 (6) Oct 23, 2013
Yes individual values are subjective, a concensus of values is objective.


ALL human values are subjective, if they weren't one could point to them and say "LOOK you're stepping on my values!". All a consensus does is informs us that a large group of people are likely (according to history) going to force another smaller group of people to live under one set of values rather than another. It doesn't make them any more "right" or "wrong". Values can't be right or wrong in the same sense that 1+1=2. IF they were we wouldn't even need politics, but they aren't and we do...

In the previous post I said "How do numbers make something subjective" in the first paragraph, it should be "How do numbers make something OBJECTIVE".
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (6) Oct 23, 2013
I guess another way of putting is is; because someone else has a different way of looking at things or doing things than you ISN'T a failure on their part to be you. It's just another expression of the human spirit.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Oct 23, 2013
a concensus of values is objective.

A consensus once said slavery was the natural order.
Is this objectively true?
nowhere
not rated yet Oct 24, 2013
We have a consensus[.]that Jesus Christ is the savior of man and a God incarnate. Be clear here...does this make that viewpoint TRUE?

Yes the viewpoint that most Americans believe in jc is true, as objectively determined by the concensus.

It's objective that you don't share the same values as mine. It isn't objective that because the majority thing[sic] one thing or another it makes it objective

Unless we are trying to determine what the overall opinion is.

or true or more valid in any way at all

Yes the objective opinion of the majority may be wrong(see jc belief above).

Says NOTHING about it's moral or objective veracity.

However this could be objectively determined. Hence how we define certain things as immoral. (Murder)

Define benefit here objectively,

Benefit here is a combination of increased survival, standard of living and enforcement of human rights.
VendicarE
4 / 5 (1) Oct 24, 2013
"A consensus once said slavery was the natural order.
Is this objectively true?" - RyggTard

According to you, it is true that wage slavery is the natural order.

Fortunately Libertarians and Randties like yourself only make up a tiny minority of the American Population.
VendicarE
not rated yet Oct 24, 2013
"ALL human values are subjective" - MysticalTard

Wrong.

Systems of values must be internally consistent (or mostly so) or else they will be rejected. Further they must be self sustaining or else they will die out. They must also be consistent with material reality or else any group that adopts those values will die out.

Finally they will as a rule be compliant on average to evolutionary biology.

A good example of this compliance is the general properties of what constitutes male/female physical beauty, which for the general population can be, and has been quantified.

VendicarE
not rated yet Oct 24, 2013
"Another example of 'liberal' racism:" - RyggTard

"Democratic congressman Alan Grayson of Florida used an image of a burning cross to spell "Tea Party" in a recent fundraising email:" - Quote from RyggTard

Illustrating that Tea-Publicans are generally racist is not racism, TardieBoy.

Your profound ignorance is a fine example of why Republicans now have an approval rating of 24 percent.

Bahahahahahahah....
VendicarE
not rated yet Oct 24, 2013
"BHO has actively destroyed the economy for 5 years." - RyggTard

The U.S. economy has been growing for the last 4 years.

Your fellow Libertarian - Alan Greenspan - nearly pushed the U.S. economy into a deep recession and caused the U.S. unemployment rate to rise to 11 percent.

Under Obama, that unemployment rate has now been reduced to 7 percent.

You don't hear that truth being reported on the Faux News propaganda network.
VendicarE
not rated yet Oct 24, 2013
"How crushing, then, that the most liberal president of all time would oversee the most notable technological failure by the federal government, perhaps ever." - RyggTard quoting Faux News

This IT problem is quickly being fixed,

No one quite comprehends why Conservative Extremists are blaming Obama when he didn't write a single line of code,

All of that faulty code was written by for profit, Capitalist Businesses.

The Conservative Propagandists never seem to mention that fact.
VendicarE
not rated yet Oct 24, 2013
"Charitable hospitals that treat uninsured Americans will be subjected to new levels of scrutiny of their nonprofit status and could face sizable new fines under Obamacare" - RyggTard

The subtext of RyggTard's complaint of course is his Libertarian Belief that charitable hospitals should provide substandard care.
VendicarE
not rated yet Oct 24, 2013
"When the GOP suggested President Obama delay the individual mandate for a year, the media brought out the pitch forks and torches while screaming, "Freak! Racist! Extremist! Arsonist! Anarchist!" - RyggTard

Liar, Liar.. Pants on Fire...

Modernmystic
1 / 5 (4) Oct 24, 2013
Yes the viewpoint that most Americans believe in jc is true, as objectively determined by the concensus.


That's not what I was asking. I was asking does the objective fact of the consensus make the belief or the value itself objectively true.

Unless we are trying to determine what the overall opinion is..


We're not. Majority opinion is totally irrelevant to the subjectivity of human value systems. The fact that 2 or 2 million people do or don't agree on a particular human created value doesn't make it "true" or "false", "right" or "wrong".

Yes the objective opinion of the majority may be wrong(see jc belief above).


Wrong in what sense though? This is the part I think you're not understanding.

However this could be objectively determined. Hence how we define certain things as immoral. (Murder)


How we define things is totally subjective. The universe doesn't care if we murder one another...does it? There is NO natural law against that. We made it up.
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (4) Oct 24, 2013
Benefit here is a combination of increased survival, standard of living and enforcement of human rights.


Nature doesn't care if we survive or not, that is YOUR preference. Nature doesn't care if the standard of living is high or low or by who's standards you're even referring to (can't get much more subjective than that one really), and finally there is no objective set human rights, we made those up whole cloth too.

Everything you just referred to is a part of human culture. Survival is the only one that has a piece of objectivity in it and that only so far as we either do survive or we don't but NOT whether it's "good" or "bad".

Try again.
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (4) Oct 24, 2013
Systems of values must be internally consistent (or mostly so) or else they will be rejected.


I can make up an INTERNALLY consistent fairy tale. Irrelevant. Moreover even if I DID make one up, someone else could reject it (and almost certainly would). They'd be just as "right" as me. This isn't like saying the sky is blue, there are no facts to verify in an opinion.

Further they must be self sustaining or else they will die out.


Propagation is unrelated to veracity. I can give probably a thousand examples, but if you think about it for five seconds so can you. Success of a value system is just as irrelevant as numbers of people who hold them for much the same reasons.

They must also be consistent with material reality or else any group that adopts those values will die out.


No they absolutely do not. A group can subjugate women that group will do just fine. AFAIK there is no material reason to think women are inferior...is there? History is replete...
VendicarE
not rated yet Oct 24, 2013
"Why would any business move a factory into a different country?" - RyggTard

So they can make shit products that sell well in America due to low cost and pay their staff vastly lower wages.

It is a win, win situation because the products fail and Stupid Americans just by more shit as a replacement.

Corporations try to keep their customers as ignorant as possible when it comes to their product, weather it be a drill or a can of genetically modified corn.

That is why Food Producers have fought tooth and nail against nutritional and other nutritional information appearing on their product labels.

RyggTard is a wonderful example of how stupid American Consumers really are.

The Conservative ones actually demand that they not be allowed to know what it is they are consuming.

Keeping themselves ignorant is the Republican way.
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (4) Oct 24, 2013
[cont] But more importantly the concept that women are or are not inferior to men is a human fiction as well. Any opinion or value you can come up with won't be any different, so the idea that a value set somehow has to marry up to objective reality in some way is a non starter from the beginning.
VendicarE
not rated yet Oct 24, 2013
"I can make up an INTERNALLY consistent fairy tale." - MysticalTard

Yes. Consistency is a necessary but not a sufficient condition.

"Propagation is unrelated to veracity." - MysticalTard

I said self sustaining, not self propagating. You have confused the two concepts.

In any case, the need to be self sustaining is a necessary condition for any belief system to be sustained.. Clearly.

"Success of a value system is just as irrelevant as numbers of people who hold them for much the same reasons." - MysticalTard

One measure of the success of a value system is by the number of adherents to that system.

There are very many other measures of "success". Which are you using?

"No they absolutely do not. A group can subjugate women that group will do just fine." - MysticalTard

Which of course says nothing about how well the belief system reflects physical reality.

You seem to be incapable of logical thought.

VendicarE
not rated yet Oct 24, 2013
"But more importantly the concept that women are or are not inferior to men is a human fiction as well." - MysticaTard

Popular culture reflects the view that men are inferior to women and has done for decades.

In popular culture, men are generally portrayed as being dumb, violent, dishonest, and physically strong and intimidating, while women are portrayed as intelligent, physically weak, manipulative and objects of sexual desire.

Are you living in the real world TardieBoy? Even Faux news provides the same portrayals.

VendicarE
not rated yet Oct 24, 2013
"so the idea that a value set somehow has to marry up to objective reality in some way is a non starter from the beginning." - MysticalTard

The requirements I provided are for groups of course, not for individuals.

Individuals can be deviants, even to the point of mental illness.

Murder can't be an accepted form of general conduct in any stable society, yet murder is a chosen lifestyle for some mentally ill individuals.

As for the delusional.. well... In the end, Objective Reality always wins, doesn't it?

VendicarE
4 / 5 (1) Oct 24, 2013
"Democratic congressman Alan Grayson of Florida used an image of a burning cross to spell "Tea Party" in a recent fundraising email:" - RyggTard

TeaPublican Racism on Fox News.

"... we keep marrying other species and other ethnics. See, the problem is the Swedes have pure genes. Because they marry other Swedes .... Finns marry other Finns, so they have a pure society. In America we marry everybody, we marry Italians and Irish." - Brian Kilmeade - Fox News
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (5) Oct 24, 2013
Yes. Consistency is a necessary but not a sufficient condition.


It's not even necessary. I haven't seen a single internally consistent value system. ANY value system breaks down by situaton.

I said self sustaining, not self propagating.


Fair enough explain the difference in this context.

In any case, the need to be self sustaining is a necessary condition for any belief system to be sustained.. Clearly.


Sustainability is irrelevant to veracity or objectivity, which is what we were talking about.

One measure of the success of a value system is by the number of adherents to that system.


There are very many other measures of "success". Which are you using?


I'm not using any. "Success" is irrelevant to my point.

Which of course says nothing about how well the belief system reflects physical reality.


Possible but not likely. Usually a group gives a reason to treat others differently that is based on a (true or false) model of reality.
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (5) Oct 24, 2013
Popular culture reflects the view that men are inferior to women and has done for decades.

In popular culture, men are generally portrayed as being dumb, violent, dishonest, and physically strong and intimidating, while women are portrayed as intelligent, physically weak, manipulative and objects of sexual desire.


All of those things can be seen as EITHER desirable or undesirable depending on culture and perspective. Again subjective and irrelevant to making a counter point.

Murder can't be an accepted form of general conduct in any stable society, yet murder is a chosen lifestyle for some mentally ill individuals.


Can't it? Look at some of the pre-European contact South American cultures. Murder is institutionalized even in many modern societies. And I'll state AGAIN, stability is IRRELEVANT to my point. I can say it over and over and over and OVER again.

Objective Reality always wins, doesn't it?


It depends on the delusion and how you define "win".
VendicarE
2 / 5 (3) Oct 25, 2013
RyggTardieBoy has received quite an ass kicking over the last week.

If he was any normal person he would feel shame for the deceit, and lies that he was caught posting.

Looks like he is also suffering from another mental disorder. He is a psychopath.

Psychopathy is a personality disorder characterised partly by enduring anti-social behavior, a diminished capacity for empathy or remorse, and poor behavioral controls.

"The essential feature of antisocial personality disorder is a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood. This pattern has also been referred to as psychopathy, sociopathy, or dyssocial personality disorder." - Diagnostic and Statistical manual for mental disorders.

NikkieTard suffers from the same condition.

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp

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Almost seven years have passed since Ontario's street-racing legislation hit the books and, according to one Western researcher, it has succeeded in putting the brakes on the number of convictions and, more importantly, injuries ...

Under some LED bulbs whites aren't 'whiter than white'

For years, companies have been adding whiteners to laundry detergent, paints, plastics, paper and fabrics to make whites look "whiter than white," but now, with a switch away from incandescent and fluorescent lighting, different ...