Arctic ice shrinking in volume, too, ESA reports

Sep 11, 2013
Handout image shows Markham Fjord in the Arctic Ocean off Canada's far north in August 2008 after the Markham Ice Shelf broke away. Arctic sea ice, which has been declining in area by unprecedented amounts in summer, is also falling in volume, the European Space Agency (ESA) said on Wednesday.

Arctic sea ice, which has been declining in area by unprecedented amounts in summer, is also falling in volume, the European Space Agency (ESA) said on Wednesday.

In a press release showcasing findings from its CryoSat, ESA said that in April this year, the Arctic's crust of ice was the thinnest observed in three years of operation.

"CryoSat continues to provide clear evidence of diminishing Arctic sea ice," said Andrew Shepherd, a professor at the University of Leeds in northern England.

"From the satellite's measurements we can see that some parts of the ice pack ice have thinned more rapidly than others, but there has been a decrease in the volume of winter and summer ice over the past three years," ESA quoted Shepherd as saying at a symposium in Edinburgh, Scotland.

"The volume of the sea ice at the end of last winter was less than 15,000 cubic kilometres (3,600 cu. miles), which is lower than any other year going into summer, and indicates less winter growth than usual."

Arctic sea ice—which floats on the ocean, unlike icesheets, which are on land—expands and contracts with the seasons.

In 2012, its extent at a key measuring point in the summer season was the lowest on record, a sign that many experts said gave further proof of man-made global warming.

Some ice experts say that the clue to summer ice lies in what happens during the winter. Thinner or less extensive ice in winter can lead to further losses in the following summer.

CryoSat—essentially CryoSat-2, replacing an original satellite that was lost at launch—was taken aloft in April 2010.

It has an all-weather altimeter, capable of detecting changes in ice thickness to within one centimetre (0.4 of an inch).

The satellite had a designed operational life for three years but is in good health and should be able to continue until 2017, ESA added.

Explore further: Better forecasts for sea ice under climate change

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deatopmg
1.2 / 5 (19) Sep 11, 2013
Melting ice is NOT a 2D phenomenon but it melts on all surfaces exposed to >0°C.
Jeffhans1
2.2 / 5 (26) Sep 11, 2013
I like how this article uses lots of old data and ignores the increase of 60% of the arctic sea ice this summer compared to last summer. Lets add in the new data and see if this comes out nearly as alarmist as it currently is written.
Vietvet
3.3 / 5 (19) Sep 11, 2013
This article is about volume not just area. Read it again.
freethinking
1.8 / 5 (32) Sep 11, 2013
Thinnest after three years of observation. Three years makes a pattern only to those that pray to the god of climate change Al Gore.
djr
3.6 / 5 (17) Sep 11, 2013
Take a look at the long term trend Jeffhans -http://nsidc.org/...icenews/

2012 was an exceptional year - so it is no surprise that 2013 smooths out the curve.
djr
3.6 / 5 (17) Sep 11, 2013
Wonder if a 35 year trend is good enough for freethinking - http://nsidc.org/...icenews/

Probably not - freethinking has moved on to the next article on Physorg to critique....
Jeffhans1
1.8 / 5 (24) Sep 11, 2013
Vietvet, To save you having to do any basic research.

Volume is Area X thickness.

New Sea Ice is the thinnest sea ice possible as it has only had one year to add thickness to itself and has to survive the summer melt.

Writing an article with Data that is now more than 6 months out of date and making statements like: "CryoSat continues to provide clear evidence of diminishing Arctic sea ice," without even mentioning that the trend is now of growing arctic ice is at best disingenuous and at worse an attempt to persuade people like you that the truth is opposite of reality.
GuruShabu
1.4 / 5 (22) Sep 12, 2013
There is plenty of literature provided along many years...
This article has nothing todo with science is pure politics.
It is about scaring people and inducing people to adopt Agenda 21
Have a look a CO2 Science:
http://www.co2sci...erts.php
Seeing is Believing (Uploaded 9 April 2010)
The Morality of Climate Change (Uploaded 18 July 2009)
Salvation on Demand (Uploaded 24 April 2009)
Free Energy is Not Cheap (Uploaded 24 April 2009)
Getting Real About Coal and Oil (Uploaded 24 April 2009)
Dirty Old Fuels (Uploaded 24 April 2009)
Climate Change in Copenhagen (Uploaded 8 April 2009)
Your "Carbon Legacy" (Uploaded 18 March 2009)
Elevated CO2: How Sweet it is ... for Sugarcane! (Uploaded 12 January 2009)
The Past Half-Century of Sea Level Rise (Uploaded 5 November 2008)
The Global Food and Water Crisis (Uploaded 22 October 2008)
China: Getting Greener (In the Good Sense) (Uploaded 8 October 2008)
Hurricane Katrina (Uploaded 2 October 2008)
Shrinking
runrig
4.3 / 5 (12) Sep 12, 2013
"CryoSat continues to provide clear evidence of diminishing Arctic sea ice," without even mentioning that the trend is now of growing arctic ice is at best disingenuous and at worse an attempt to persuade people like you that the truth is opposite of reality.


You must have missed the graph linked below by djr:

The "60%" increase this year over last is not statistically significant as an outlier extreme is hardly likely to the followed by another ( the Arctic does have weather as well as climate). The graph linked well shows the climatic trend in Arctic ice and your statement that "the trend is now of growing arctic ice" is indeed, at best, disingenuous.
alfie_null
4.4 / 5 (13) Sep 12, 2013
There is plenty of literature provided along many years...
This article has nothing todo with science is pure politics.
It is about scaring people and inducing people to adopt Agenda 21
Have a look a CO2 Science:
. . .

How about expressing your own critique on this article? Merely cutting and pasting that site's table of contents is lame.

Those "links" are videos, not literature. Which, I suppose, is an indication of whom they are targeting.

The site provides no opportunity for expression of critical views. Unlike what you are doing (and allowed to do) on this site. This is key. Please don't be surprised that I have no interest in subjecting myself to a torrent of uncontrolled dogma.
GuruShabu
1 / 5 (18) Sep 12, 2013
at alfie
MY opinion on the subject is like your alias:NULL
I need to provide data, fact, substance.
So you consider video is not good?
freethinking
1.2 / 5 (19) Sep 12, 2013
I wonder if a longer term trend would be good enough for djr http://www.skepti...made.htm

djr
4.6 / 5 (10) Sep 13, 2013
I don't think freethinking actually read the article just referenced. If Free did read it - then I am glad that we are now in agreement. Here is the last paragraph.

"Although natural factors have always influenced the state of Arctic sea ice, research strongly suggests that today's decline is driven by the novel influence of anthropogenic CO2 we've added to the atmosphere and thus is unique in Earth's history."
djr
4.7 / 5 (9) Sep 13, 2013
Guru - today's article is about ice loss in the Arctic.

You link us to a well known site that has a very overt objective - the presentation of information that is counter to the overwhelming evidence on climate change. None of the videos you linked talked abut ice loss in the Arctic. You often talk about the grand conspiracy to take over the world.

You are the one who displays and extreme level of confirmation bias.
antialias_physorg
4.4 / 5 (7) Sep 13, 2013
You often talk about the grand conspiracy to take over the world.

You are the one who displays and extreme level of confirmation bias.

It's a standard tactic: if you are part of a conspiracy - accuse others of conspiracy.
GuruShabu
1 / 5 (18) Sep 13, 2013
djr,
GW, or AGW, or CG, or butterflies missing their migration routes, or people getting violent because of GW (yes, even this one!), or coral bleaching, or ocean levels raising it's the same disguised note.
Don't you realise that?
Humpty
2.2 / 5 (17) Sep 15, 2013
Well no wonder all the ice is heating up and melting - look at that bloody satellite microwaving it all day.

If they just turned that off, then everything would be all right.
GuruShabu
1 / 5 (17) Sep 15, 2013
Humpty,
I have to concede you a 10 Stars award for the great post!
Well done mate!
djr
4.6 / 5 (8) Sep 15, 2013
GW, or AGW, or CG, or butterflies missing their migration routes, or people getting violent because of GW (yes, even this one!), or coral bleaching, or ocean levels raising it's the same disguised note.
Don't you realise that?

I have no idea what you are saying here Guru - you will have to be a little less cryptic for me.
GuruShabu
1 / 5 (17) Sep 15, 2013
No worries djr.
I'll try!
But not here on this forum anymore...
Just give me some time because I am extremely busy right now.
Cheers,
djr
4.3 / 5 (8) Sep 15, 2013
If not on this forum - then how? I am primarily interested in a public exchange - I think we need a more robust public dialogue - there are some serious issues we need to debate as a species - in order to get past the log jam of ignorance that religion currently has us stuck in.
Lurker2358
1.2 / 5 (17) Sep 15, 2013
Wonder if a 35 year trend is good enough for freethinking - http://nsidc.org/...icenews/

Probably not - freethinking has moved on to the next article on Physorg to critique....


The Trend is only about 20 years or so. Before that, there was no tred, there were hills and valleys, and the data was very bad at the beginning of the record anyway. It's only since about 1992 that there has been really "good" satellites.

Also, the volume data is not actually data, it is a model output. It was retro-actively produced by a computer model (up to a few years ago anyway,) and so is not the same thing as a primary measurement.

Finally, yeah, the volume is actually up quite a bit this year, and it's even higher than the year before last year, which to be honest even I wasn't expecting a stall in the trend, but it has happened, now admit it and deal with it.

I still think my Greenland buffer theory should be considered. It's at a lower latitude and has much more ice than the sea ice
djr
4.1 / 5 (8) Sep 15, 2013
Lurker - what exactly are we admitting and dealing with?

There is a 35 year trend - I think you have trouble reading graphs.

http://psc.apl.wa...anomaly/

If you are not happy with the data presented - could you please supply an alternate link to your data source.
runrig
4.4 / 5 (7) Sep 15, 2013
Finally, yeah, the volume is actually up quite a bit this year, and it's even higher than the year before last year, which to be honest even I wasn't expecting a stall in the trend, but it has happened, now admit it and deal with it.


Errr

Looking at this...
http://psc.apl.wa...2sst.png

It is very hard for me to agree with your statement ... "the volume is up quite a bit this year"? This after a colder than average Arctic summer after the lowest Spring Arctic ice volume recorded in the satellite era.

Also: http://www.esa.in...s_on_ice
djr
4 / 5 (8) Sep 15, 2013
I think we finally have some moderation happening. Thankyou moderators - the board will be so much better if we all know the expectations are being enforced. If we discuss the science - and report the political trolls - perhaps we can feel we have accomplished something.
GuruShabu
1.4 / 5 (19) Sep 16, 2013
Dialing Back the Alarm on Climate Change
A forthcoming report points lowers estimates on global warming
http://online.wsj...464.html
Interesting point is: NO HARM...
Most experts believe that warming of less than 2 degrees Celsius from preindustrial levels will result in no net economic and ecological damage. Therefore, the new report is effectively saying (based on the middle of the range of the IPCC's emissions scenarios) that there is a better than 50-50 chance that by 2083, the benefits of climate change will still outweigh the harm.
runrig
4.4 / 5 (7) Sep 16, 2013
Guru: Do you understand the science?
Because if you take onboard the bollocks uttered by the man you quote then I have to seriously doubt it.
http://thinkprogr...climate/

"[A]s John Abraham, an IPCC reviewer and the director of the Climate Science Rapid Response Team, put it to Media Matters: the column "has such elementary errors in it that [it] casts doubt on the author's understanding of any aspects of climate change."
GuruShabu
1.4 / 5 (18) Sep 16, 2013
runrig,
I do understand "science" and I was naïve most o my life believing it was perfect, flawless.
I have a Masters done at the Ècole des Mines de Paris and I have a PhD got here in Australia at the University of Queensland where we are developing the Hyper sonic rocket engine.
I can "read"a graph and I can derivate and integrate an equation if you know what I mean.
I've worked 10 years for Nasa and I have to tell you that presently my view and respect for "science" is at the lowest level in my life.
However, it is a very difficult approach to address "science" here in this forum where I post a very last report about to be released by IPCC (which, between us, is absolutely bollocks) and I receive 6 1s.
I don't even know if this comes from the "believers" or from the "deniers"/
Absolutely terrible tagging, and a situation that is clearly guided by "belief"and very emotional approach over a political agenda disguised of pseudo-science, unfortunately.
GuruShabu
1.2 / 5 (17) Sep 16, 2013
runrig,
Please don't get me wrong.
The corruption of science is not only present on the Al Gore catastrophic preach to create global problems and incite fear to allow to implement Agenda 21.
The problem with science is much deeper and I would recommend to everyone truly interested in real "science" to read the book by Lee Smolin from the University of Waterloo - Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics - titled The Trouble with Physics.
It has open my mind and removed the veil of believe from my blind faith in Science.
It is very well written and describes the waste of resources, the problem with "peers"and the difficult of a 40 years research (+ billions of dollars+thousands of "scientists in that area) to admit it is basically wrong. It takes on String Theory. Another excellent book about the subject of by Peter Woit from Columbia University named Not Even Wrong.
Let's see how many 1s I get by referring two books...
runrig
4.4 / 5 (7) Sep 17, 2013
Guru:
Yes, I saw that you got a string of 1's for posting a link to an article. I have had the same thing done to me. However AR5 has not been officially published yet, and so any leak of it will be by those seeking to "spin" the message, and the quote you gave lower down was done by a noted denier who has history of being ignorant of the science. I have no problem with genuine skeptics, but to me the causation physics is all. GHG theory is irrefutable and, other than the Sun, aerosol/albedo, it can be the ONLY causation (if you at least accept warming at all). Much is made of the current hiatus but just a look at the large influence the ENSO cycle has on global temps, and it's removal from the trend, clearly shows warming continuing. IPCC forecasts CANNOT forecast that cycle, and so it was bound to pause the rise at some point. To use it, as Mr Ridley and others do to discredit the IPCC is disingenuous.
GuruShabu
1 / 5 (15) Sep 17, 2013
runrig,
In spite of our evident disagreement on the topic you seem to b one of the only pro warming reasonable person here.
I have to mention djr as well.
My compliments for your fair posture on the debate.
I'll come latter.
runrig
5 / 5 (5) Sep 17, 2013
runrig,
In spite of our evident disagreement on the topic you seem to b one of the only pro warming reasonable person here.
I have to mention djr as well.
My compliments for your fair posture on the debate.
I'll come latter.


Guru:
I try to be fair and confrontational. To be otherwise is counter productive, I've found. Those that are unreasonable on here I avoid directly conversing with.

GuruShabu
1 / 5 (16) Sep 17, 2013
Fair enough mate.
About your last port to me you said:"those seeking to "spin" the message"
What about the one below from National Post Canada:
Climate agency accused of cooling on global warming as new report lowers predicted temperature increase.
http://news.natio...ncrease/
If every news about this is a "spin" are we going "conspirational" again?
The news will pop out more frequently until the actual report is released but it seems to me IPCC could not hold its catastrophic position any longer.
Which for me is a relief because I KNEW that sort of jazz was political, not "scientific".
You don't need to reply.
We better wait for the actual report.
I just wanted to put back the cards on your hands on this "conspiracy" bs, that I am accused many times...
cheers.
runrig
5 / 5 (6) Sep 18, 2013
runrig,
In spite of our evident disagreement on the topic you seem to b one of the only pro warming reasonable person here.
I have to mention djr as well.
My compliments for your fair posture on the debate.
I'll come latter.


Guru:
I try to be fair and confrontational. To be otherwise is counter productive, I've found. Those that are unreasonable on here I avoid directly conversing with.



Correction.... that, of course, should read *non-confrontational*

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