Homemade 3D guns in US stir more buzz than bang

Jul 18, 2013 by Robert Macpherson

Like many Americans, Travis Lerol has owned guns for much of his life, but the single-shot Liberator he made himself in his basement with a tabletop 3D printer is unique.

For one thing, as a firearm, it leaves something to be desired.

"I've got it to go off a grand total of once," out of about 200 attempts, the 31-year-old software engineer told AFP at his home in this sleepy suburb outside Washington.

The firing mechanism—a tiny nail—"seems a little unreliable, and I've heard that other people who have printed (Liberators) have had some troubles as well," Lerol added.

"It's more of a fun project than a practical firearm for me. I own better ones. It's not like it's going to replace anything.... It's a fun project with a bit of a challenge to it."

Vaguely resembling its namesake, a crude US-made single-shot pistol airdropped to French resistance fighters in World War II, the Lego-like Liberator is the first complete firearm that can be produced with a 3D printer.

The computer-aided design (CAD) files required to make it were downloaded more than 100,000 times earlier this year from Defense Distributed, an open-source website dedicated to 3D printable gun components.

The State Department, which oversees US weapons exports, ordered Defense Distributed in May to pull down all its Liberator blueprints—but by that point, users had already reposted them widely on The Pirate Bay and similar file-sharing sites.

"I think Liberator files have been downloaded at least a million times" from all over the Internet, Cody Wilson, the University of Texas law student behind Defense Distributed, told AFP in an email.

But as Lerol, one of the very few to have gone public with his Liberator project, pointed out: "There's not a whole lot of us who have (actually) printed it yet."

Lawmakers in New York and California have been pushing to outlaw 3D guns, while draft legislation to prohibit "undetectable firearms" has been referred to the US House of Representatives' judiciary committee.

"From a purely constitutional perspective, this is a deprivation of equal protection of the law, because individual firearm production is legal in the United States," Wilson said.

Guns of any kind have been a divisive issue in the United States since the December massacre of 20 children at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, which thrust gun control to the top of the political agenda.

Overseas, police in Australia have successfully printed a Liberator—it took 27 hours and well under $2,000—as an object lesson in how easy it would be for a criminal to do the same.

"The terrorism implications of such a weapon are huge," New South Wales police commissioner Andrew Scipione told Australian news media.

"We will prosecute offenders caught manufacturing, selling, owning or in possession of a 3D gun."

In Canada, researchers at the University of Toronto printed a Liberator as well, but with design changes to avoid running afoul of gun laws, the Toronto Star newspaper reported.

In the United States, with almost as many guns (an estimated 300 million) as people (315 million), and more than 30,000 gun-related deaths a year, the right "to keep and bear arms" is famously enshrined in the Constitution.

"Firearms may be lawfully made by persons who do not hold a manufacturer's license ... provided they are not for sale or distribution," explains the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) on its website.

Indeed, for many years, gun enthusiasts have convened "build parties" to put together weapons as lethal as the storied AK-47 assault rifle from parts easily purchased on the Internet.

Lerol, a target shooter and one-time summer camp gun instructor who owns two pistols, a shotgun and an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle, has made two Liberators with a Cubify printer that cost $1,300, about the price of a high-end laptop.

Reading CAD files off a USB key, the stylish device whirred quietly in Lerol's cluttered man cave one recent summer evening, creating like magic a couple of small gun parts from a fine spray of thermoplastic.

Nearby were other objects Lerol has printed: a quaint Oriental tea pot, a blue "Dr Who" police box, a strappy wedge-sole woman's shoe, a few chess pieces and some components of a homemade rifle.

Lerol said some fellow shooters looked askew at his Liberator when he turned up at a Maryland shooting range one day to test it, but he is not put off by the fear and loathing provoked by the notion of do-it-yourself 3D gunmaking.

"I think people are often worried about new technologies. They don't necessarily fully understand them, so they worry about what the bad possibilities might be," he said.

"In this case, people worry about someone taking a gun on a plane," he said.

"No one wants some terrorist doing that, but it's not really an undetectable firearm" because—even with its plastic construction—today's airport screening devices would spot it.

"And I don't see these being used for crime," Lerol added, "because there are simply so many other firearms out there. Most of which are much better."

Explore further: New tech aims to improve communication between dogs and humans

add to favorites email to friend print save as pdf

Related Stories

Files posted online to 'print' working handgun

May 06, 2013

Computer files to create a handgun almost entirely from parts made with a 3D printer went online Monday, alarming gun control advocates after it was successfully test-fired by its inventor.

With high-tech guns, users could disable remotely

May 21, 2013

A high-tech startup is wading into the gun control debate with a cellphone controller that would allow gun owners to know when their weapon is being moved—and disable it remotely.

Recommended for you

Study says upgrading infrastructure could reduce flood damage

Oct 29, 2014

The severe flooding that devastated a wide swath of Colorado last year might have been less destructive if the bridges, roads and other infrastructure had been upgraded or modernized, according to a new study from the University ...

Walk through buildings from your own device

Oct 29, 2014

Would you like to visit The Frick Collection art museum in New York City but can't find the time? No problem. You can take a 3-D virtual tour that will make you feel like you are there, thanks to Yasutaka ...

'Ambulance drone' prototype unveiled in Holland

Oct 28, 2014

A Dutch-based student on Tuesday unveiled a prototype of an "ambulance drone", a flying defibrillator able to reach heart attack victims within precious life-saving minutes.

User comments : 108

Adjust slider to filter visible comments by rank

Display comments: newest first

Eikka
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 18, 2013
a crude US-made single-shot pistol airdropped to French resistance fighters in World War II


It was never actually airdropped anywhere. Some were shipped to the UK, but nobody knows if any found their way to the French, or if any were ever used for their intended purpose.

The problem with handing everyone guns to fend off a potential mutual enemy is that when everyone has guns, everyone becomes a potential enemy. Who says that the guy next door isn't planning to use his 3D printed liberator to shoot you in the back and steal your stuff?
PeterParker
1.4 / 5 (10) Jul 18, 2013
All over the world people are using 3d printers for a variety of productive purposes.

In America, American's are using them to create devices designed to murder their neighbours.

The faster America dies, the better the world will be.
dtxx
2.2 / 5 (10) Jul 18, 2013
All over the world people are using 3d printers for a variety of productive purposes.

In America, American's are using them to create devices designed to murder their neighbours.

The faster America dies, the better the world will be.


Thanks for spewing hate speech, but this makes you sound really dumb. You can make a 12 gauge shotgun with a length of pipe, a nail, and a rubberband. And of course a shotgun shell, but the printed gun needs commercial ammunition as well. And the shotgun is reloadable and reusable. From what I've heard about the printed ones, not so much. The cartridge is still metallic in both cases, so printed guns are no free pass at the metal detector. But you're right, the incredibly few people who would ever think of spending 50 times as much or more to make a hunk of plastic into a terrible quality gun is a real problem and a whole country should die ASAP because someone there had this idea.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (14) Jul 18, 2013
The problem with handing everyone guns to fend off a potential mutual enemy is that when everyone has guns, everyone becomes a potential enemy
Well with that fractured mindset, everyone with a knife is also an enemy, no?

FACT - Most everyone who owns guns does so responsibly.
FACT - The only way to reliably protect yourself in your home is with a handgun.
Who says that the guy next door isn't planning to use his 3D printed liberator to shoot you in the back and steal your stuff?
If he intends to do so, only a gun will give you any chance of survival, no?

And if he knows you might be armed with a real gun he will be less apt to try, whether it be with your toy gun or a knife or a club or even a real gun. Statistics prove this out.

Look, here is objective proof.
http://www.youtub...hjjF5qFc
Eikka
2.8 / 5 (9) Jul 19, 2013
Well with that fractured mindset, everyone with a knife is also an enemy, no?


In a sense, but really no. You can't stab someone from 30 feet away.

FACT - Most everyone who owns guns does so responsibly.


Most people aren't criminals or stupid. Obviously. The problem is those who are.

FACT - The only way to reliably protect yourself in your home is with a handgun.


Only if you're paranoid enough to carry the gun on your person at all times even in your own house, and you manage to reliably and correctly use it when the situation warrants it.

If he intends to do so, only a gun will give you any chance of survival, no?


No. Having a gun actually makes it more likely that you'll die in a confrontation with another gunman, which is proven by statistics. The common sense reason to this is that having a gun, you're more likely to attempt to retaliate rather than seek shelter, which makes you an easy target.
Eikka
2.5 / 5 (8) Jul 19, 2013
You have to remember that in a gunfight, the attacker has the upper hand because he gets to shoot first by the virtue of being the attacker, while you're still fumbling for your gun holster or purse, standing there like an idiot and waiting to be shot. Real life firefights aren't mexican standoffs where you stare down each other's barrels and scare the criminal to submission - it's someone pulling a gun by surprise, or storming in with a gun while you're not expecting them..

A more reliable solution to the situation is to duck and run, and stay hidden instead of trying to counter-attack because that's where you present yourself as a primary threat to the assailant.

ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 19, 2013
The problem with handing everyone guns to fend off a potential mutual enemy is that when everyone has guns, everyone becomes a potential enemy.


What do you really know about firing a weapon, firing a weapon under stress and actually shooing a living creature?
the upper hand because he gets to shoot first by the virtue of being the attacker,

Really? Ever been to the real OK Corral in Tombstone? The participants would be considered 'professional', yet they fired dozens of rounds, at close range, that mostly missed.
Gun control is hitting what you are aiming at.
Any printed gun will be more dangerous to the user.
Having a gun actually makes it more likely that you'll die in a confrontation with another gunman,

What statistics?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (12) Jul 19, 2013
In a sense, but really no. You can't stab someone from 30 feet away
LOTS of people are injured and killed with thrown objects, including knives.
You have to remember that in a gunfight, the attacker has the upper hand because he gets to shoot first by the virtue of being the attacker, while you're still fumbling for your gun holster or purse, standing there like an idiot and waiting to be shot
I assume you are european. Euros have been flooded with so much antigun propaganda its understandable how you will present such nonsensical scenarios without even thinking about them.

Someone who is breaking into your home intends to harm you. THE ONLY CHANCE you have of defending yourself is with a handgun. This is true whether you are a 6' male or a 4' little old lady. You have the advantage in your home but ONLY if you have a gun.
Real life firefights aren't mexican standoffs
How would you know? You seem to have trouble telling reality from fiction in this regard.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (12) Jul 19, 2013
Most people aren't criminals or stupid. Obviously. The problem is those who are
And so if you were thinking rather than merely spouting, you would have to conclude that the only way good people can protect themselves from bad people with guns, is with a GUN.
A more reliable solution to the situation is to duck and run
George zimmerman didnt have the option of running did he? Because, according to him, trayvon had attacked him, knocked him to the ground, straddled him, and was bashing his head into the concrete. Was he supposed to wait until his head was cracked until he used his weapon??

Neighborhood watch is a valuable service. Citizens who volunteer often put themselves in danger and so need to be armed.
and stay hidden instead of trying to counter-attack because that's where you present yourself as a primary threat to the assailant
You mean wait to die instead of trying to defend yourself?? People who choose this option usually do die. What pathetic logic.
Eikka
3.2 / 5 (9) Jul 19, 2013
What do you really know about firing a weapon, firing a weapon under stress and actually shooing a living creature?


Having been through army training tends to give you some perspective in that respect.

OK Corral in Tombstone?


Hardly comparable. In a gunfight between two gangs, with 1881 revolvers and black powder, it's hardly surprising that people miss, because after the first shots are fired everyone's just shooting wherever if they can even see anything.

What statistics?


http://www.newsci...X16yRWqI

LOTS of people are injured and killed with thrown objects, including knives.


Yet it takes too much practice and skill to be effective with a throwing knife. They're not a real problem in society.

George zimmerman didnt have the option of running did he?


He had the option of not trying to confront Travyon Martin.
Eikka
3.4 / 5 (10) Jul 19, 2013
THE ONLY CHANCE you have of defending yourself is with a handgun.


The best defence is not offence if you can simply leave and remove the threat by removing yourself from the threat.

Even if you do have a gun, and you intend to use it, the best course of action is to first run and then perpare and turn on the attacker, instead of letting them come to you on their terms.

You mean wait to die instead of trying to defend yourself?? People who choose this option usually do die. What pathetic logic.


No. You flee to flee, not to wait around the corner or duck under a table. You get the hell out of there to buy time and get help.
Eikka
3.5 / 5 (8) Jul 19, 2013
Neighborhood watch is a valuable service. Citizens who volunteer often put themselves in danger and so need to be armed.


The point of a neighborhood watch is not to be a vigilante police, but to -watch- the neighborhood and alert the actual police if they see something suspicious.
Eikka
2.8 / 5 (10) Jul 19, 2013
Someone who is breaking into your home intends to harm you. THE ONLY CHANCE you have of defending yourself is with a handgun. This is true whether you are a 6' male or a 4' little old lady. You have the advantage in your home but ONLY if you have a gun.


If they intend to harm you, they won't come into your house. They wait until you come out of the house. If they intend to rob your house, they wait until you're out of the house.

You're really talking about a mafia/gang shooting scenarion where people bust into your home while you're having lunch with your gun on the table. That's not really how it happens.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (12) Jul 19, 2013
He had the option of not trying to confront Travyon Martin
He was following him which was his job. Martin attacked him and he defended himself.
The best defence is not offence if you can simply leave and remove the threat by removing yourself from the threat
Bad guys will rarely let you leave.
Even if you do have a gun, and you intend to use it, the best course of action is to first run and then perpare and turn on the attacker
Again more ridiculous scenarios. Did you learn this tactic in the army?? In an ambush you run TOWARD the attacker yes?
The point of a neighborhood watch is not to be a vigilante police
They are NOT vigilantes. More euro propaganda.
If they intend to harm you, they won't come into your house. They wait until you come out of the house
Ahaahaaa and expect you to deliver money and your daughter?
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 19, 2013
If they intend to harm you, they won't come into your house. They wait until you come out of the house. If they intend to rob your house, they wait until you're out of the house.


You don't read many police reports do you?
"A homeowner was asleep in his LaPorte County, Ind. home when he was awakened by the sound of glass breaking. The homeowner retrieved a pistol, went to investigate, and discovered a hatchet-wielding intruder inside the house. The armed homeowner responded to the threat by shooting the criminal in the chest, killing him"
http://www.nraila...zen.aspx
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (12) Jul 19, 2013
Google news 'home invasion'

"Two men armed with a gun kicked in the carport door and entered, McDougald said, and his his son fired at the intruders. One of the men was shot and killed, and the other fled the area"
http://www.wral.c...2680798/

-I guess they couldnt wait.

"Suspect arraigned in home invasion, beating of mom caught on nanny cam

Shawn Custis pleaded not guilty in the assault of a New Jersey mother in front of her 3-year-old daughter. He intended 'to kill,' says the prosecution."
http://www.nydail....1388065

-This turd should have been shot and shot again.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Jul 19, 2013
"Her gaze met the eyes of a man wearing a hunting vest who was aiming a gun directly at her face.

Goldsberry, understandably frightened, dropped to the floor and began screaming. Although in a panic, she managed to crawl her way into the bedroom to retrieve her weapon, a .38-caliber revolver she had purchased to provide comfort while living alone.

She maintained a concealed weapons permit for the firearm."
"The couple remained cuffed outside for the next thirty minutes while police searched their home without a warrant for a man they had never heard of and certainly never seen.

Finally they were released and the police left."
"Despite the fact that she was pointing a gun at police, and Goldsberry wasn't shot, Wiggins says, "She sure shouldn't be going to the press.""
http://www.infowa...arshals/
Shouldn't be going to the press?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.2 / 5 (13) Jul 20, 2013
"Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago" says Obama.

-So we have a leader of the most powerful country in the world who says he would attack people who were following him? Or maybe he thinks this is only ok for people of martins age? I'm confused but either way it smells.
Yet it takes too much practice and skill to be effective with a throwing knife
What? You mean I couldnt hurt you by throwing a knife at you unless I could throw it at you point-first?? More fractured logic. Ok I'll use a lamp. Either way your only certain defense is with a gun.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (13) Jul 20, 2013
BHO was smoking pot at Martin's age.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (11) Jul 20, 2013
"Kim Kardashian's kooky baby daddy Kanye West was back in the spotlight again Friday, confronting paparazzi outside LAX, and wrestling a shutterbug who then fell to the ground...our sources say he's been interviewed by cops and they've determined he did indeed suffer injuries during the attack.

"And the site, citing law enforcement sources, said cops are labeling the case a felony attempted robbery — not an assault — apparently because Kanye was may have been trying to swipe the paparazzo's camcorder."

-So will the president now claim that kanye west could have been him 25 years ago? Please note - trayvon apparently tried to swipe zimmermans gun and the photog appears to be a latino. The parallels are uncanny...
Captain Stumpy
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 21, 2013
"In a sense, but really no. You can't stab someone from 30 feet away"
Wrong- Mountain men and American Indians (and more) have proved that a thrown knife/hatchet is just as deadly as one used up close

"Only if you're paranoid enough to carry the gun on your person at all times even in your own house, and you manage to reliably and correctly use it when the situation warrants it. "
wrong again- I have been attacked on my own property more than once. I simply got my gun and the confrontation ended. not escalated, not statistically got myself killed... it ENDED. because the aggressor knew that I would not hesitate to shoot him.

"You have to remember that in a gunfight, the attacker has the upper hand...etc"
sigh... wrong again. ONLY if the attacker is skilled and proficient, and also experienced. I have been attacked (like I said above) but I am still here, and that was HAVING to go get a firearm. being capable takes skill, training, and experience (or luck even).
Captain Stumpy
1.8 / 5 (10) Jul 21, 2013
"If they intend to harm you, they won't come into your house."

obviously you have never been to South Miami... or many other big cities... even country places... if an attacker feels they have the upper hand, they will not hesitate to aggressively enter your home.

"The best defence is not offence if you can simply leave and remove the threat by removing yourself from the threat"

but what if you are pursued? the BEST fastest easiest way to disarm a situation is to stand your ground with a firearm. Being able has nothing to do with black powder, or old weapons, it has to do with the intent, purpose, drive and fear of the individual. if a felon thinks that you can create a problem for them, they will try to kill you, as you are a threat to their safety and freedom. if you "flee" they will follow. Army training is good for Army purposes. But after all the training I received, that first kill stays with you. criminals and others can sense when a person is capable and willing ...
Captain Stumpy
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 21, 2013
TheGhostofOtto1923 has some great arguments, and Eikka should read them... Eikka, you live in a dream world. reality sucks, and it is NOT nice when it comes to the nut-cutting. Dreamers are great at coming up with idealized fantasy worlds, but in reality, when there is something ugly to be done, the dreamer is not the person to go to. just as people think about their own idealized utopia, they fail to remember that one persons utopia is another persons hell.

You go TheGhostofOtto1923 ... I loved your logical well thought out arguments. Next thing, Eikka will want to ban spoons for making people fat, or water for drowning victims. how about cars for drunk driver accidents?
alfie_null
4.3 / 5 (6) Jul 21, 2013
sigh... wrong again. ONLY if the attacker is skilled and proficient, and also experienced. I have been attacked (like I said above) but I am still here, and that was HAVING to go get a firearm. being capable takes skill, training, and experience (or luck even).

This illustrates another point often made by gun ownership proponents. A selfish "this helps me and I don't recognize/acknowledge the cost to society". Is their vision that everyone undergo whatever lifelong training and practice it takes to make them proficient in the kind of situations where they need to defend themselves with a gun?

That would be a large cost. And some of our citizens never will achieve proficiency. And you'll probably have to include a hefty dose of indoctrination, as (unlike you) many of us don't live in situations where we have ever had the need to threaten others with a gun (although perhaps that will change if everyone owns a gun).
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Jul 21, 2013
many of us don't live in situations where we have ever had the need to threaten others with a gun (although perhaps that will change if everyone owns a gun).


How do you know you live in such a situation where you will never need a firearm to defend your life?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (9) Jul 21, 2013
@alfie
You're an idiot. The benefits far far outweigh the detriment. Surrendering the right to defend oneself and ones family from harm critically weakens the collective psyche. It is the subconscious acceptance that you are not capable of defending them, which you are. But even more insidious is the implication that you and they are not WORTH defending.

Your nonsense about proficiency - how much practice do you think it takes to point a revolver and shoot the person who is breaking down your bedroom door? Again you parrot the debilitating idea that normal people lack the minimum skills and self-control needed to scene themselves, and so someone else must do it for them.

This is a very recent concept in human history. Humans have been defending themselves successfully for a million years. We have been selected for it. Statistics prove that when afforded the means to do so we are very good at it.

And removing this ability or surrendering it is a very good way of making us sick.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (9) Jul 21, 2013
'self-control needed to DEFEND themselves'
Fucking spellcheck.
kochevnik
1.7 / 5 (11) Jul 21, 2013
@alfie_null This illustrates another point often made by gun ownership proponents. A selfish "this helps me and I don't recognize/acknowledge the cost to society".
Death by Government 20x More Common than Death by Criminal: http://www.freema...ernment/
nowhere
3.7 / 5 (3) Jul 22, 2013
He had the option of not trying to confront Travyon Martin
He was following him which was his job. Martin attacked him and he defended himself.

"Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: Okay, we don't need you to do that."
No, following was not part of his job.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (12) Jul 22, 2013
"...groups across the U.S. vary greatly in their scope, function, the level of activity by their members, and training."

-But Zimmerman was not acting in his capacity as watchman, only as a concerned citizen.

""Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred," Lee said recently. "He was in fact on a personal errand in his vehicle when he observed Mr. Martin in the community and called the Sanford Police Department."

-Zimmerman had no obligations to follow a dispatchers suggestions. Following someone is not illegal. It is not provocative. It certainly doesn't give someone the right to attack someone, knock them to the ground, and pound their head into the concrete.

If trayvon was attacked in such a manner and had killed his attacker, this wouldnt be an issue. If Zimmerman was black, this wouldn't be an issue.

This fuss is entirely political and it smells.
antialias_physorg
3.5 / 5 (8) Jul 22, 2013
Like many Americans, Travis Lerol has owned guns for much of his life

Does anyone else find this offhand statement about many people having access to dedicated killing-machines as a matter-of-course slightly scary? Or is that only me?

FACT - Most everyone who owns guns does so responsibly.

Problem is that not a single person on this planet is a responsible human being 24/7 (if you read his bio then not even Gandhi was that good - an most people aren't a Gandhi by a long shot).
People have a bad day.
People develop psychoses/neuroses.
People get to be old and develop dementia/alzheimers (which often makes them aggressive)
People do occasionally use substances (like alcohol) that impair judgement.

And while it takes only half a second of irresponsibility to do untold damage with a dedicated killing machine (like a gun) it takes a full lifetime of responsibility without even one tiny slip-up not to.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Jul 22, 2013
Like many Americans, Travis Lerol has owned guns for much of his life

Does anyone else find this offhand statement about many people having access to dedicated killing-machines as a matter-of-course slightly scary? Or is that only me?

FACT - Most everyone who owns guns does so responsibly.

Problem is that not a single person on this planet is a responsible human being 24/7 (if you read his bio then not even Gandhi was that good - an most people aren't a Gandhi by a long shot).
People have a bad day.
People develop psychoses/neuroses.
People get to be old and develop dementia/alzheimers (which often makes them aggressive)
People do occasionally use substances (like alcohol) that impair judgement.

And while it takes only half a second of irresponsibility to do untold damage with a dedicated killing machine (like a gun) it takes a full lifetime of responsibility without even one tiny slip-up not to.

Better ban autos. They kill everyday.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (11) Jul 22, 2013
dedicated killing machines
You mean like criminals with clubs and knives? They're pretty scary too don't you think?
only me
No, you and hordes of other brainless euros who seem to think that ignoring obvious danger is a dependable way of avoiding it.
dedicated killing machine
This is a nice turn of phrase. Like 'Saturday night special' or 'off the streets' or 'high-powered sniper rifle' (hunting rifle). By using it it means you have to think even LESS.

The necessity of having firearms for protection FAR outweighs the risks. Thinking people naturally reach this conclusion. Propagandists and fear-mongers resent this and so pay PR people to devise clever catchphrases to make pseudointellectuals such as yourself feel they are being morally superior by parroting them.

You aren't.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Jul 22, 2013
One thing I recall about the TM/GZ incident was that TM was not walking on the street or a sidewalk but was cutting through walking along houses.
Maybe TM was trying to stay out of the rain. But he lives in FL where it rains frequently. Why not have a rain coat or umbrella?
And, several houses had been burglarized recently. People have a right to protect their property and anyone who looks like they are casing a place is suspicious.
BTW, police have no obligation to protect your property or your life. That's up to you.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (10) Jul 22, 2013
TM wasn't from Florida.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Jul 22, 2013
"Born: 5 February 1995
Died: 26 February 2012 (shot to death)
Birthplace: Florida
"At the time of the shooting, Trayvon Martin was on suspension from his school in Miami for having been found with "marijuana residue" in his backpack."

Read more: Trayvon Martin Biography (Slaying Victim) | Infoplease.com http://www.infopl...Zn1ySmfa
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (10) Jul 22, 2013
"Born: 5 February 1995
Died: 26 February 2012 (shot to death)
Birthplace: Florida
"At the time of the shooting, Trayvon Martin was on suspension from his school in Miami for having been found with "marijuana residue" in his backpack."

Read more: Trayvon Martin Biography (Slaying Victim) | Infoplease.com http://www.infopl...Zn1ySmfa
Yeahyeah I misspoke. Otto admits it when he is wrong, you ought to try it sometime.
Not a single person on this planet is responsible
Sorry but over here we tend to trust good people and mistrust bad people, not the other way around. This is the BASIS of civilization. Allowing people to convince you otherwise is how civilization is destroyed.
GermanJoey
2.4 / 5 (8) Jul 22, 2013
Death by Government 20x More Common than Death by Criminal:
I know there is no data on the subject, but I must imagine how many people would have died from a lack of government. The green revolution alone is currently sustaining the lives of about 6 billion people, and I must wonder how successful those agricultural techniques would have been without government subsidized science.

Hell, the US probably wouldn't even be able to feed its population without the government maintained interstate highway system, let alone the innumerable other things the government does to support your life and lifestyle.

As Hobbes said, life without government is "solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short."
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (9) Jul 22, 2013
From google news

"HOUSTON (AP) — Houston police say a woman who fatally shot a man at a gas station had rebuffed his sexual advances and opened fire when he flashed a knife.

"Police say the woman stopped at the station to fill her car with gas and repeatedly told the man to leave her alone. The video shows the man approaching, the pair arguing, she pulls a rifle from the trunk of the car and the man tries to hit her.

"Police say the woman feared for her life when she opened fire."
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Jul 22, 2013
As Hobbes said, life without government is "solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short."

That sounds like the life under the govts of Pol Pot, Stalin, DPRK, Mugabe, Idi Amin, ....
antialias_physorg
4.3 / 5 (6) Jul 22, 2013
Better ban autos

That's a very bogus argument because cars DO have a use - and the use outweighs the harm. Whereas guns in the hands of people with an IQ marginally above room temperature do not have a use (and if they do have a, be it ever so marginal, use - like sports or hunting weapons - you certainly don't need to have them at home).

Cars are not dedicated killing machines. Guns are.

You mean like criminals with clubs and knives? They're pretty scary too don't you think?

Sure. But the damage potential of a gun or a club is rather low compared to a gun. And knives DO have uses (like cars). They are not dedicated killing instruments.

ignoring obvious danger is a dependable way of avoiding it.

No one is ignoring them. But there are alternatives to violence. Trying to fix the causes instead of killing off the ever replenishing symptoms.

But I guess that's a concept too complicated for you to understand. Solving problems takes brains.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Jul 22, 2013
cars DO have a use -

So do firearms.
you certainly don't need to have them at home

Aren't the Swiss required to have a firearm at home?
Cars are not dedicated killing machines. Guns are.

That depends upon the operator.

Why do socialists trust their police with firearms? Why do you trust them NOT to kill you?
BMM
1.9 / 5 (8) Jul 22, 2013
Let me first begin by asking you all to desist from insulting each other. Not all Europeans accept spoon-fed propaganda, and not all Americans glorify violence.

Having said this, might I remind you all that Russia has a murder rate roughly 3x higher than the United States, and the majority of murders there occur with knives, not guns. So clearly gun control does not guarantee less murders.

Furthermore, does anyone realize one of the first actions in Austria and Germany by the Nazis was to first encourage voluntary firearm registration. Later, they came and forcibly relieved firearms from the civilian populations in those countries, thus leaving the civilians without a means to defend themselves against a tyrannical government.

Mind you, this is what happened to a neighbor of mine just prior to him being forcibly assimilated into the German Army, with the threat of death if he was to choose otherwise!
He is now particularly in favor of our American practice of gun ownership.
BMM
2 / 5 (8) Jul 22, 2013
Though, people are right in a way to decry that America has currently too much of a culture of violence. Just look at the zest by which male circumcision is carried out on infants, gang violence is glorified, etc.

But saying that gun ownership should be illegal is not facing facts. The 2nd Amendment exists to signify to the people that the Government is aware that people have the right to defend themselves and their property from those wishing to do them harm, including the Government itself! The Bill of Rights was included explicitly in the Constitution to signify to the people that the Government of the United States recognized that its citizens had these specific rights, intrinsic to them, that the Government itself had no right to infringe upon.

The fact that we own guns DOES NOT imply that we wish to use them for criminal activity.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (10) Jul 22, 2013
That's a very bogus argument because cars DO have a use - and the use outweighs the harm
People can ride the bus or ride bicycles you know?
Whereas guns in the hands of people with an IQ marginally above room temperature
It sounds like you think this is everyone who wants to protect themselves and their families; or pretty much anybody at all but yourself. Yes?
do not have a use (and if they do have a, be it ever so marginal, use - like sports or hunting weapons - you certainly don't need to have them at home).
Right. Only if you want protection from somebody like this.
http://www.cnn.co...r.slain/

-If you dont, then thats up to you.
Cars are not dedicated killing machines. Guns are.
In order to protect yourself from bad people you have to be able to KILL them. This is not usually necessary when they know it is possible and inevitable.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (9) Jul 22, 2013
No one is ignoring them
Absolutely you are.
But there are alternatives to violence
You think there were alternatives to this?

"Hawke-Petit and daughters Hayley, 17, and Michaela, 11, were killed on July 23. Dr. William Petit was beaten but survived. Komisarjevsky and Hayes were convicted and are on death row...The mother was raped and strangled. The two girls died in a fire started by the two killers."

...who had tied them to their beds and set them on fire.

-Your attitude insults people who KNOW that people like this exist and want to protect their families from them.
Trying to fix the causes instead of killing off the ever replenishing symptoms
-And this is PARTICULARLY insulting. YOU blame society for the fact that these monsters exist. YOU say that we have no right to defend ourselves from them because they are our FAULT.

Our OUTRAGE at your disgusting opinions will NOT prevent us from doing what we can do to protect ourselves. And this means owning firearms.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (10) Jul 22, 2013
the damage potential of a knife or a club is rather low compared to a gun
You are not thinking again. The only way you can protect yourself from someone with a knife or a club is with a gun.
They are not dedicated killing instruments.
Lets redefine your nice phrase so that it makes some sense. HOMiCIDAL CRIMINALS are dedicated killing machines. They will use any and all means to get what they want. And the only way you are going to STOP them is with a gun. They are designed for this purpose

I wonder if you are perhaps unaware of these situations. Is your news censored? Do you not have access to stories like this?

"Authorities are trying to determine who beat up a 68-year-old man during a home-invasion robbery early Saturday morning.

The crime was reported shortly before 1 a.m. Saturday on the 100 block of Suncrest Avenue. One or more burglars forced their way into the victim's home and assaulted him by striking him several times with an unknown object..."
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (12) Jul 22, 2013
America has currently too much of a culture of violence.

Two major world wars were launched by Europe in the 20th century and then there were the few minor wars in Spain and Balkins.
The last war in the US started in 1860s.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (12) Jul 22, 2013
"Over the weekend, a brutal beating in the city center resulted in the death of a 20-year-old and dominated headlines. Police in the German capital are still searching for seven suspects who allegedly attacked the young man without provocation in the city's central Alexanderplatz square early on Sunday morning. "
http://www.spiege...782.html

If the victim had a firearm, he may have survived and/or taken out a few of his attackers.
What makes concealed carry laws more effective at reducing crime is the uncertainty on the part of a criminal if his potential victim could defend himself.
Criminals are bullies and are likely to turn tail if their victim can fight back.
SaulAlinsky
2.1 / 5 (11) Jul 22, 2013
"On December 14, 2012, 20-year-old Adam Lanza fatally shot twenty children and six adult staff members in a mass murder at Sandy Hook Elementary School in the village of Sandy Hook in Newtown, Connecticut."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newtown_Mass_Murder

-Killed

-Perpetrator's mother
Nancy Lanza (shot at home)

-School personnel
Rachel D'Avino, teacher's aide
Dawn Hochsprung, principal
Anne Marie Murphy, teacher's aide
Lauren Rousseau, teacher
Mary Sherlach, school psychologist
Victoria Leigh Soto, teacher

-First grade students
Charlotte Bacon
Daniel Barden
Olivia Engel
Josephine Gay
Dylan Hockley
Madeleine Hsu
Catherine Hubbard
Chase Kowalski
Jesse Lewis
Ana Marquez-Greene
James Mattioli
Grace McDonnell
Emilie Parker
Jack Pinto
Noah Pozner
Caroline Previdi
Jessica Rekos
Avielle Richman
Benjamin Wheeler
Allison Wyatt

-Perpetrator
Adam Lanza (suicide)

Without access to legally purchased guns, it's hard to imagine Lanza could have caused the damage he did.
dtxx
1.7 / 5 (11) Jul 23, 2013
What do you really know about firing a weapon, firing a weapon under stress and actually shooing a living creature?


I've done all of the above. I've never been in a fire fight, but I have shot in many competitions. I've also hunted waterfowl, and cleaned and eaten the ones I've killed. I've fired over 25,000 rounds just through my competition pistol alone, though I am now done competing.

I see this argument as a rub between ideals and reality. I deeply and sincerely wish we lived in a society where owning a firearm was not a necessity. I'd be the first one to throw my guns in the incinerator if it would also have the effect of ridding society of predators and psychopaths. But I also live in the gang capital of the world, and I have seen some of the very worst of human nature firsthand. You're damn right I'm scared of what people are capable of, and while a gun is certainly no guarantee of safety, I feel it's the best option available to me at this time.
dtxx
1.4 / 5 (10) Jul 23, 2013
"On December 14, 2012, 20-year-old Adam Lanza fatally shot twenty children and six adult staff members in a mass murder at Sandy Hook Elementary School in the village of Sandy Hook in Newtown, Connecticut."
Without access to legally purchased guns, it's hard to imagine Lanza could have caused the damage he did.


Really? You aren't very imaginative and clearly have an anti-gun bias. How about this?

The 2011 Kashgar attacks were a series of knife and bomb attacks in Kashgar, Xinjiang, China on July 30 and 31, 2011. On July 30, two Uyghur men hijacked a truck, killed its driver, and drove into a crowd of pedestrians. They got out of the truck and stabbed six people to death and injured 27 others.


http://en.wikiped..._attacks
antialias_physorg
3.9 / 5 (7) Jul 23, 2013
You're damn right I'm scared of what people are capable of

And you think that putting a gun in the hands of a scared person (namely people like you) is a solution?

Or even slightly better than a terrible idea?

Really?
nowhere
4 / 5 (4) Jul 23, 2013
How about this?
The 2011 Kashgar attacks were a series of knife and bomb attacks in Kashgar, Xinjiang, China on July 30 and 31, 2011. On July 30, two Uyghur men hijacked a truck, killed its driver, and drove into a crowd of pedestrians. They got out of the truck and stabbed six people to death and injured 27 others.

Tragic incident. How do guns help defend against surprise attacks, explosives and trucks? maybe they could have defended themselves against the stabbings, but the what if the attackers themselves used guns in the first place? Would random civilians firing at attackers in a crowded area really reduce the casualties? In the chaos, would one be able to distinguish an attacker from a civilian?
nowhere
3.4 / 5 (5) Jul 23, 2013
He was following him which was his job.

But Zimmerman was not acting in his capacity as watchman, only as a concerned citizen.

So he wasn't even doing his job. Just intentionally walking into a bad situation. Lucky he had a gun to make him feel safe.
nowhere
3.4 / 5 (5) Jul 23, 2013
One thing I recall about the TM/GZ incident was that TM was not walking on the street or a sidewalk but was cutting through walking along houses.
Maybe TM was trying to stay out of the rain. But he lives in FL where it rains frequently. Why not have a rain coat or umbrella?
And, several houses had been burglarized recently. People have a right to protect their property and anyone who looks like they are casing a place is suspicious.
BTW, police have no obligation to protect your property or your life. That's up to you.

Yes he was a thief. You do not have the right to protect your property with lethal force. Police are specifically there to protect your rights, of which life and property are two.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (12) Jul 23, 2013
Without access to legally purchased guns, it's hard to imagine Lanza could have caused the damage he did.


A match and a can of gasoline would have killed more, and has.
One of the greatest mass murders in the US was by arson.
Why won't you advocate for the control of all sources of fire?
" two of the biggest mass murders in American history that were largely ignored by the national media because they did not advance the gun control agenda. December of 1987 (96 murdered by Hector Escudero in Puerto Rico) and April 1990 (87 murdered by Julio Gonzalez in New York City). But because both were arson murderers, the mainstream media largely ignored these crimes."
http://claytonecr...ers.html
nowhere
5 / 5 (3) Jul 23, 2013
A match and a can of gasoline would have killed more, and has.
One of the greatest mass murders in the US was by arson.

Too bad the victims didn't have any guns to defend themselves with.
nowhere
5 / 5 (4) Jul 23, 2013
Why won't you advocate for the control of all sources of fire?

Maybe if guns could be, used to cook food, provide light, provide warmth, and grew on trees, you would have a point.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (11) Jul 23, 2013
it's hard to imagine that Lanza could have caused
Lanza was not the owner of those guns and was in illegal possession of them. Lanza was insane and the owner knew this.

As a result of the tragedy teachers are being armed and trained and schools are hiring armed guards across the country. People are realizing that children need to be protected in the same way as money, dry goods, celebrities, politicians, art objects, and school boards, which is only proper.

It's hard to imagine that Lanza could have done much damage at all if he was confronted by people with the proper means to stop him whether he was carrying guns or petrol bombs. Something besides words at any rate.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 23, 2013
You have the right to protect your property with lethal force in most jurisdictions. And the police cannot, and will not be able to protect you in your home and on the street. This is YOUR duty and your responsibility.

If you are lucky enough to get to a phone and give the operator the correct info you still have at least 15 minutes between the time your door is kicked in and they get there, with guns drawn, trying to figure out if it is safe enough FOR THEM to enter.

Do you think you'll live? Will you be rethinking your decision to let others protect you as you lay there coughing up blood?

Perhaps you just don't think you or your family are worth the effort.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 23, 2013
He was following him which was his job.

But Zimmerman was not acting in his capacity as watchman, only as a concerned citizen.

So he wasn't even doing his job. Just intentionally walking into a bad situation. Lucky he had a gun to make him feel safe.
As concerned citizens we all share the responsibility for safe and secure communities. Trayvon was by all accounts out of place and acting suspiciously. There had been a number of breakins.

In his capacity as watchman, Zimmerman knew how to follow people, and he knew that this was dangerous which is why he was legally armed. This did NOT warrant his being assaulted, knocked down, straddled, and threatened with death.

It DID warrant the use of deadly force in order to protect himself.

What would you have done - shrugged your shoulders and said 'not my problem'? Sometimes we just have to step up you know? That is if we give a shit about anybody else besides ourself.
SaulAlinsky
1.8 / 5 (10) Jul 23, 2013
Lanza was not the owner of those guns and was in illegal possession of them. Lanza was insane and the owner knew this.
So she knew he was insane yet taught him how to shoot (well). That doesn't make sense.

The guns were legally purchased and maintained, and he had access to them. It's self-evident to conclude gun control laws are insufficient and need strengthened.

This is like the guns-are-illegal-in-Chicago meme that gun advocates like to throw around. What they don't realize is the vast majority of gun crimes committed in Chicago are perpetrated with guns legally purchased just outside the city limits.

It's just like the concept of dry counties. There's no chance in hell they are dry if you can just drive to the next county and traffic it over the border.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Jul 23, 2013
Firearms are illegal in UK yet the criminals, and the well connected, seem to be able to obtain them.
By the way, aren't heroin and many other substances banned around the world, yet there never seems to be much of a shortage.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (9) Jul 23, 2013
Why won't you advocate for the control of all sources of fire?

Maybe if guns could be, used to cook food, provide light, provide warmth, and grew on trees, you would have a point.

Firearms help you shoot the food and keep tyrants from plundering the light and warmth of your house.
Anyone who advocates for banning firearms is a true socialist who only desires control over the masses.
That can be the only rational conclusion.
Why do so many people WANT a tyrant to control them?
SaulAlinsky
1.4 / 5 (10) Jul 23, 2013
Firearms are illegal in UK yet the criminals, and the well connected, seem to be able to obtain them.
Are you really trying to equate a gun problem in the UK with the US' gun problem? Really?
By the way, aren't heroin and many other substances banned around the world, yet there never seems to be much of a shortage.
Do you want to legalize them?
Firearms help you shoot the food
I doubt many people outside of PETA want to ban hunting.
keep tyrants from plundering the light and warmth of your house.
That's the 3rd amendment, not the 2nd.
Anyone who advocates for banning firearms is a true socialist who only desires control over the masses.
No one in the mainstream media advocates a total ban on firearms.
Why do so many people WANT a tyrant to control them?
Capitalism is wage slavery and the ultimate tyranny. It gives the illusion of choice, but unless you are one of the masters your only right is to choose a new tyrant. You still end up with a tyrant.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (10) Jul 23, 2013
traffic it over the border
Well doing so is a serious felony isn't it? More proof that gun laws do not affect criminals. Gun phobes such as yourself fail to realize the true potential for gunrunning.

Every day tons of drugs and hundreds of illegals cross our borders. There are millions of full-auto AKMs sitting in warehouses around the third world just waiting for lucrative markets.

Smuggled guns and gun crime have become a critical problem in britain ever since guns were outlawed there.
http://m.guardiannews.com/uk/2008/aug/30/ukcrime1
no one in the mainstream media
You are naive and have a short memory. They are not SAYING it now although they have many times in the past. But they still do want it and are hoping for a string of misconstrued tragedies like trayvon Martin to create a groundswell.
do you want to legalize them?
Illegal drugs have no benefit. Guns are a necessity.
SaulAlinsky
1 / 5 (9) Jul 23, 2013
Well doing so is a serious felony isn't it? More proof that gun laws do not affect criminals.
I don't think you understand how laws work.

Smuggled guns and gun crime have become a critical problem in britain ever since guns were outlawed there.


Firearm-related death rate per 100,000:
UK: 0.25 (Total, 2010), 0.04 (Homicide), 0.18 (Suicide)
US: 10.3 (Total, 2011), 3.60 (Homicide), 6.30 (Suicide)

10.3 / 0.25 = 42.2 times the Firearm-related Death rate as the US

You are naive and have a short memory.
Examples?

Illegal drugs have no benefit.
I was pointing out the mentally bereft nature of the "only criminals commit gun crimes" argument. The question still stands, do you want to legalize them?

Guns are a necessity.
No.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (9) Jul 23, 2013
"A recent study published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy concluded that there is a negative correlation between gun ownership and violent crime in countries internationally, that is, "where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest.""
http://www.thecom...uns_back
JohnGee
1.6 / 5 (7) Jul 23, 2013
See Chicago:
When you can purchase guns legally nearby, it doesn't do much good to ban them. You have to ban them everywhere.

Britain is a good example because it is an island. This makes it much harder to traffic in weapons, and as a result it has a gun homicide rate 90 times lower than the US.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 23, 2013
When you can purchase guns legally nearby, it doesn't do much good to ban them. You have to ban them everywhere
And if you BAN them then only criminals will have them. And often as not they will be full-auto and they will be smuggled in from south america and the middle east.
Britain is a good example because it is an island. This makes it much harder to traffic in weapons, and as a result it has a gun homicide rate 90 times lower than the US
"...despite the UK having its gun ban, the violent crime rate is still FAR ABOVE that of the United States, and the country has also earned the title of violent crime capital of Europe.

"More than three times as many rapes, sexual assaults, robberies and physical assaults were recorded in the UK compared with our closest rival France, according to European Commission data...Britain also had the highest number of burglaries"

-This is primarily BECAUSE the people are no longer able to protect themselves.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 23, 2013
Examples?
"The only way to discourage the gun culture is to remove the guns from the hands and shoulders of people who are not in the law enforcement business." --- NYT, 9/24/75

"There is no reason for anyone in this country, for anyone except a police officer or a military person, to buy, to own, to have, to use, a handgun. The only way to control handgun use in this country is to prohibit the guns. And the only way to do that is to change the Constitution." --- Michael Gartner, former NBC News President, USA Today 1/16/92

"The goal is an ultimate ban on all guns, but we also have to take step at a time and go for limited access first." --- Joyner Sims, Florida State Health Dept., Deputy Commissioner, Chicago Tribune, 11/7/93
http://www.guncit...ody.html

More recently:
http://gunssaveli...herwise/

-Stop spreading lies.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 23, 2013
Saul says
Are you really trying to equate a gun problem in the UK with the US' gun problem? Really?
But then when he thinks he can make a point he says
Firearm-related death rate per 100,000:
UK: 0.25 (Total, 2010), 0.04 (Homicide), 0.18 (Suicide)
US: 10.3 (Total, 2011), 3.60 (Homicide), 6.30 (Suicide)
"UP TO 3m illegal guns are in circulation in Britain, leading to a rise in drive-by shootings and gangland-style executions, new figures have revealed...Criminals have maintained a steady flow of smuggled guns from eastern Europe...Research suggests that in some areas a third of young criminals, classed as those aged 15 to 25 with convictions, own or have access to guns ranging from Beretta sub-machineguns to Luger pistols, which can be bought from
underworld dealers for as little as £200...Unarmed officers say they risk confronting teenagers on mountain bikes brandishing automatic weapons." -- THE SUNDAY TIMES 03/04/09

-Youre right. It IS easier to smuggle guns into the US.
Captain Stumpy
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 24, 2013
"Sure. But the damage potential of a gun or a club is rather low compared to a gun. And knives DO have uses (like cars). They are not dedicated killing instruments.
But I guess that's a concept too complicated for you to understand. Solving problems takes brains."
Wrong, Antialias... it, like a gun, depends on the USER. a knife in MY hands is FAR more dangerous than a GUN in YOUR hands. and the Gun DOES have a use, like the auto (it is a TOOL, like the auto). it is called feeding the family. i use mine for that. I use my auto for that. and the moron that threatened me has an auto and a gun, and has killed with his auto, NOT with his gun... should i only fear him when he is drunk and driving? NOT.
I always try to avoid violence, but i have been forced to use a gun to protect my family and my life. if YOU would have YOUR way, i would be dead, along with my family, and you would be enjoying the attentions of a drug-addicted alcoholic moron
Captain Stumpy
1.7 / 5 (11) Jul 24, 2013
continued
Antialias
your argument is about forcing YOUR utopian belief system on the masses... but what about the beliefs of others? and when they hate your system and rise against it, will you say that all people are morons? stupid? NO ... because one mans utopia is another mans hell.
Guns are there to be used against criminals and tyranny... if the govt would spend as much money on prosecuting criminals and keeping them in jail, it would be better than spending it on the anti-gun campaigns like they do now.
SaulAlinsky he STOLE those legal weapons from his mother, which he killed. he was a CRIMINAL, HE did NOT purchase those weapons. and mother TRIED to get help. blame the system that let her down !
Captain Stumpy
1.7 / 5 (11) Jul 24, 2013
SaulAlinsky
"keep tyrants from plundering the light and warmth of your house.
That's the 3rd amendment, not the 2nd."
the SECOND AMENDMENT is there to guarantee that all the REST of the amendments STAY there! protection against tyranny comes from the strength of the people, if we were disarmed, and decided to vote out a tyrant, who's to say he would bother to listen?
and it is YOU who dont know or understand how laws work.... you can make ALL the freakin laws you want, a criminal will only use them if it BENEFITS him/her self! there is no way around it! criminals dont CARE about laws unless they think they can GET something from it!
Captain Stumpy
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 24, 2013
SaulAlinsky
you should listen to Otto1923: when i had to go to britian, the first thing i did was secure a firearm (yes, it was illegal, and i got it from a criminal). i was living in a low income area (because i was military and poor) and i NEVER ONCE had a problem... mostly because the toughs in the area KNEW i was armed, and i would not hesitate to shoot. i never had to use my firearm. it was more effective in my sock drawer than any other argument you have produced. when i left, i sold said firearm to another incoming soldier.
a gun is a tool. i need mine frequently to put groceries on my table. i have used it for defense and in the military. if i thought, for one minute, i could get away with not having one, i would not have one, but i have lived life all over the world, as a soldier and as a military brat. i KNOW what life is like in lower income areas all over the world. they suck. sometimes the Gun is the ONLY choice. better to have and not need, then need and not have.
SaulAlinsky
1.5 / 5 (8) Jul 24, 2013
Captain Stupid, how's the search for glass martians and lead boomerangs going? I see you are as dumb as ever.
Captain Stumpy
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 24, 2013
SaulAlinsky
i take it as a compliment that you would lash out so strongly. it means that you are angry at yourself for being stupid, and for being thrashed about in the argument (especially by Otto!). so... sling away. i have large shoulders.
i realize you are ignorant of many things, especially in life. maybe you are a rich kid with some college? inexperienced in the REAL world? it is ok, i understand your kind. you are weak and you figure this is the only way you can pretend to have any real strength or masculinity . keep firing! i love it.
JohnGee
1 / 5 (5) Jul 24, 2013
Otto, just because the UK has gun problems doesn't mean they wouldn't be worse with more lax gun laws. They have some of the lower gun homicide rates in the world.
nowhere
3 / 5 (2) Jul 24, 2013
In his capacity as watchman, Zimmerman knew how to follow people,

And yet he was noticed, and even discussed by the deceased via cell phone.

and he knew that this was dangerous which is why he was legally armed.

He could possibly have avoided the danger by following the operators instructions.

This did NOT warrant his being assaulted, knocked down, straddled, and threatened with death.

Obviously he was inadequate at dealing with the situation, that being a young unarmed 17 year old. It would be interesting to understand why a burglar would resort to violent murder close to home, after not actually committing a crime, and against a member of the neighbourhood watch?
It DID warrant the use of deadly force in order to protect himself.

Avoiding the situation avoids the necessity.
kochevnik
2.1 / 5 (12) Jul 24, 2013
Otto, just because the UK has gun problems doesn't mean they wouldn't be worse with more lax gun laws. They have some of the lower gun homicide rates in the world.
How absurd. UK has far more street violence than Moscow or the USA because thugs know people aren't armed, and the bobbies are only slightly more useful in preventing violence than wooden statues

If I were a criminal I would work London because it is a criminal paradise with laughable penalties. 4000 laptops are stolen every week in Heathrow alone, according to Intel's own 'intel'. When I was in London people just watched a woman being raped on a park bench by Buckingham Palace. A crowd of a hundred didn't even exhibit the empathy to pick up a cell phone and call the police
animah
5 / 5 (2) Jul 24, 2013
Perhaps the gun rights divide masks a more important question:

Why does the US have the highest rate of firearms-related homicides in the developed world? What's up with the violence levels?

And don't slag me - I am genuinely asking you folks on both sides.
brt
1 / 5 (7) Jul 24, 2013
The bottom line is this; if the population isn't ready to responsibly handle guns, then they aren't ready to handle a majority of what the future holds. I'm talking specifically about technology. If we can't handle guns now, then we won't be able to handle cars in 30 years (and theoretically can't right now). Or whatever method of transport we use in 200 years. Not to mention the technology that powers our homes or the power stored in our personal devices.

It's not the facts that turn people away from guns. If it were, then we would outlaw cars and junk food. What turns people away from guns is the disconnect from nature that has increased over the past 100 years. We don't kill any of our own animals for food or settle disputes with physical fights anymore. So the idea that any person, whether they are old, obese, or half your size; can equal the playing field with a gun...that's just too close to nature for a populace so disconnected from the reality of nature's brutality.
brt
1 / 5 (7) Jul 24, 2013
In other words; any connection to the harsh reality of nature (ex: killing an animal for food) is too hard for most people to accept given how much we've all forgotten how hard life is and how much our system of society actually does to make life more comfortable and convenient. So giving any obese jackass in a hove-around old folks' scooter the ability to jump straight to the polar extreme and have complete control over that harsh reality of nature is a scary thought for some people.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (11) Jul 24, 2013
Perhaps the gun rights divide masks a more important question:

Why does the US have the highest rate of firearms-related homicides in the developed world? What's up with the violence levels?

And don't slag me - I am genuinely asking you folks on both sides.

Define your terms and reference your stats.
The USA is a big place and the highest homicide rates are in 'liberal' cities that used to restrict firearms. The SCOTUS recently declared citizens of DC, Chicago, etc have constitutional right to keep and bear arms. History has shown concealed carry laws reduce violent crime.
brt
1 / 5 (7) Jul 24, 2013
Perhaps the gun rights divide masks a more important question:

Why does the US have the highest rate of firearms-related homicides in the developed world? What's up with the violence levels?

And don't slag me - I am genuinely asking you folks on both sides.


The United States has a big problem with mental illness spawned by crazy ideas of what reality is. Everything is a fight worth killing over if need be. Everything is a conspiracy worth killing over if need be. America also loves to cheer for the bad guy. Thug life, the loner without a cause, etc. It's a culture.

The main reason is because people don't know how to let things go. Everyone's so delusional with egos out of control/disconnected from reality. Someone cuts you off in traffic? "OH! that bitch is gonna get it!!!" Someone tells you to piss off? "NO! You piss off...straight to hell!!" I'M IMPORTANT! I'M SOMEBODY! It's an epidemic of people thinking they are (and deserve) so much more than they really are.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (10) Jul 24, 2013
Well said koch.
Otto, just because the UK has gun problems doesn't mean they wouldn't be worse with more lax gun laws. They have some of the lower gun homicide rates in the world.
The uk is the victim capital of the west because of their medieval gun laws.
operators instructions
They were suggestions not instructions.
Avoiding the situation avoids the necessity
Sure. The reason crime is so high is because people like you refuse to be involved in making their communities safer. George Zimmerman was concerned and responsible enough to volunteer his time to GET INVOLVED. He nearly got killed because of it. And people like you choose to drag his name through the dirt and ruin his life, because of it.

Is this fair?
brt
1 / 5 (7) Jul 24, 2013
In his capacity as watchman, Zimmerman knew how to follow people,

And yet he was noticed, and even discussed by the deceased via cell phone.

and he knew that this was dangerous which is why he was legally armed.

He could possibly have avoided the danger by following the operators instructions.

This did NOT warrant his being assaulted, knocked down, straddled, and threatened with death.

Obviously he was inadequate at dealing with the situation, that being a young unarmed 17 year old. It would be interesting to understand why a burglar would resort to violent murder close to home, after not actually committing a crime, and against a member of the neighbourhood watch?
It DID warrant the use of deadly force in order to protect himself.

Avoiding the situation avoids the necessity.


The only thing I'll correct you on is that operators are not permitted to give instructions. So there were no instructions to follow.
Hoama
1.8 / 5 (10) Jul 24, 2013
that's just too close to nature for a populace so disconnected from the reality of nature's brutality.
We no longer live in a state of nature. Get over it. I'm sorry for you that you must kill small to medium size game in order to feel like a man.

Small people with their little hobbies don't bother me, but you can have your fruitcake male bonding in the woods without assault weapons. We are taking your toys, get over it.
BAKOON
1.7 / 5 (6) Jul 24, 2013
The solution is easy. Ban all firaerms and inspect all houses. If you hide a gun you go away forever. No conealed carry necessary!

Zimmeran didn't almost get killed OMG! He had two bandaids worth of cuts on his head and a bloody nose.
brt
1.6 / 5 (7) Jul 24, 2013
that's just too close to nature for a populace so disconnected from the reality of nature's brutality.
We no longer live in a state of nature. Get over it. I'm sorry for you that you must kill small to medium size game in order to feel like a man.

Small people with their little hobbies don't bother me, but you can have your fruitcake male bonding in the woods without assault weapons. We are taking your toys, get over it.


I don't hunt princess. Why would I when I can just go to my butcher? I'm sorry that my valid point was lost on you and your troll-like anger. I know you don't realize it, but your disrespectful, extreme, and absurd views and bigoted perspective on the subject are the reason why there is an equally disrespectful, extreme, and absurd person with a bigoted perspective who has 3 handguns strapped onto them at all times.

cause of American firearms homicide rates? polarization of views and taking extreme personal offense to anyone who doesn't agree 100%
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (9) Jul 24, 2013
The solution is easy. Ban all firaerms and inspect all houses. If you hide a gun you go away forever. No conealed carry necessary!

Zimmeran didn't almost get killed OMG! He had two bandaids worth of cuts on his head and a bloody nose.
So should he have waited until his head was cracked? Trayvon was on top of him, banging his head into the sidewalk and telling him he was going to die. OMG you're a moron.
brt
1 / 5 (5) Jul 24, 2013
The solution is easy. Ban all firaerms and inspect all houses. If you hide a gun you go away forever. No conealed carry necessary!

Zimmeran didn't almost get killed OMG! He had two bandaids worth of cuts on his head and a bloody nose.


The issue that people have with this idea is that there are no perfect people. Being a police officer, FBI agent, medical doctor, etc. doesn't guarantee anything. People don't want someone who has an equal chance of being some sort of immoral, unethical, or criminal mind searching through all their personal belongings.

The good point was brought up though; why does America have the highest rate of gun related homicide yet we don't have the highest number of firearms per person? I think it should also be obvious by now that guns will never be banned. That's not my desire, just what I conclude after observing for 28 years.
BAKOON
1.9 / 5 (8) Jul 24, 2013
LOL, thats like saying "I Hate black people they make me so racist!" You dumbass! They have guns because they are bigoted in the first place and everything scares them. Tiny little men with tiny little lizard brains.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (11) Jul 24, 2013
LOL, thats like saying "I Hate black people they make me so racist!" You dumbass! They have guns because they are bigoted in the first place and everything scares them. Tiny little men with tiny little lizard brains.
So youre saying that black and hispanic and chinese street gangs carry guns because they are bigots? Youre probably right.

The only bigot present the night trayvon got shot was the one who called Zimmerman a crazy-assed cracker. Which is probably why he was attacked. Like I say if he was black the attack never would have happened.
brt
1.5 / 5 (6) Jul 24, 2013
LOL, thats like saying "I Hate black people they make me so racist!" You dumbass! They have guns because they are bigoted in the first place and everything scares them. Tiny little men with tiny little lizard brains.


it's kind of a self perpetuating cycle. They carry guns because they are paranoid and afraid (because who honestly needs to carry a gun unless they're looking for trouble or are in the worst part of town at 2am). Someone else becomes afraid of them, so they start carrying a gun, and so on and so on.
BAKOON
2.1 / 5 (11) Jul 24, 2013
When did all the racists get the memo that calling someone a cracker now carries the death penalty? How does that work?? Do you have a ham radio you tune into?
GermanJoey
3 / 5 (6) Jul 24, 2013
Do you have a ham radio you tune into?
Fox news.
brt
1 / 5 (6) Jul 24, 2013
Perhaps the gun rights divide masks a more important question:

Why does the US have the highest rate of firearms-related homicides in the developed world? What's up with the violence levels?

And don't slag me - I am genuinely asking you folks on both sides.


And as you can see from reading these comments. Where most other countries have citizens that say "I disagree, though you have some valid points, your conclusion is flawed", Americans say "You're a fucking stupid asshole and you're dick is small. I hate you and I'm going to rape your daughter because of your stupid views that are obviously wrong since I don't agree with them". In short, Americans are sociopaths.
Captain Stumpy
1 / 5 (7) Jul 24, 2013
LOL, thats like saying "I Hate black people they make me so racist!" You dumbass! They have guns because they are bigoted in the first place and everything scares them. Tiny little men with tiny little lizard brains.

not quite... while training in the military in Alaska, I emptied a full 10 round clip into a charging brown bear and it barely slowed down. it was finally killed with a .50 cal round to the head. there are no other reasons to have a gun?
tell you what, you come visit ME without a gun, and I promise that I will not defend your life against some of the wild animals around my house... like mountain lions (5 deaths this year) and bears (8 attacks this year, one death so far... but the busy season is coming up this fall!)
my guns give me groceries. FOOD. it is a necessity. I just also live near enough to people like you that I need to use those TOOLS to defend myself.
Captain Stumpy
1 / 5 (6) Jul 24, 2013
BRT- " it's kind of a self perpetuating cycle. They carry guns because they are paranoid and afraid (because who honestly needs to carry a gun unless they're looking for trouble or are in the worst part of town at 2am). Someone else becomes afraid of them, so they start carrying a gun, and so on and so on. "

whereas I will have to agree with you on this point, as I have lived in the inner city and I think you may be right about this one point, it is also the reason that people pigeon hole everyone. everyone thinks that the CITY covers America. there are rural parts too. VERY rural in some places. in all the Mountain Loin attacks this year, absolutely NONE were reported although there was federal game and fish on scene for all. WHY? it is bad for tourist season, and it makes some look bad. (like those trying to reintroduce large predators like the mountain lion and wolves).
Captain Stumpy
1.5 / 5 (8) Jul 24, 2013
BRT- " And as you can see from reading these comments. Where most other countries have citizens that say "I disagree, though you have some valid points, your conclusion is flawed", Americans say "You're a fucking stupid asshole and you're dick is small. I hate you and I'm going to rape your daughter because of your stupid views that are obviously wrong since I don't agree with them". In short, Americans are sociopaths. "
some americans are. but you also have to admit that most people are also making this a black and white issue (not race). there are grey areas too. there are people like me who need a firearm, who live wild, and who eat wild. when I am at home, I don't need a gun: I have a wolf pack that adopted me and we all live together. but when I leave my house, I had better be armed and VERY aware of my surroundings. there are large predators out there, and some happen to be two-legged. (poachers are a fact of life). some people have good reasons to go around armed.
brt
2.1 / 5 (7) Jul 24, 2013
BRT- " it's kind of a self perpetuating cycle. They carry guns because they are paranoid and afraid (because who honestly needs to carry a gun unless they're looking for trouble or are in the worst part of town at 2am). Someone else becomes afraid of them, so they start carrying a gun, and so on and so on. "

whereas I will have to agree with you on this point, as I have lived in the inner city and I think you may be right about this one point, it is also the reason that people pigeon hole everyone. everyone thinks that the CITY covers America. there are rural parts too. VERY rural in some places. in all the Mountain Loin attacks this year, absolutely NONE were reported although there was federal game and fish on scene for all. WHY? it is bad for tourist season, and it makes some look bad. (like those trying to reintroduce large predators like the mountain lion and wolves).


That's true too. Most who want to ban all guns are from urban areas and lack that understanding.
brt
2 / 5 (8) Jul 24, 2013
Cpt. Stumpy : It's definitely a a grey area. I always had a gun with me out in Arizona and northern New York state because of all the predators and packs of predators that roam those areas. I've lived in NYC and currently live in Atlanta and I've never needed a gun, but I've definitely had occasions where I've wanted one. Understanding people is just like understanding animals. Someone comes into a convenience store to rob the place while you're paying for a red bull and there are certain things you do and don't do in order to keep it from becoming an incident. The only difference being that you can actually communicate with the guy robbing the place with a shotgun, but a bear or a pack of coyotes is going to tear you up no matter what you say or how you act.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (12) Jul 24, 2013
When did all the racists get the memo that calling someone a cracker now carries the death penalty? How does that work?? Do you have a ham radio you tune into?
Moron. Trayvon was shot because he knocked zimmerman down, straddled him, pounded his head into the sidewalk and said he was going to kill him. Youre a dirty-assed troll arent you?
kochevnik
2.1 / 5 (7) Jul 24, 2013
When did all the racists get the memo that calling someone a cracker now carries the death penalty? How does that work?? Do you have a ham radio you tune into?
Moron. Trayvon was shot because he knocked zimmerman down, straddled him, pounded his head into the sidewalk and said he was going to kill him. Youre a dirty-assed troll arent you?
I also don't understand why the US media make it a black/white issue. Nobody involved with the Zimmeran case, including the jury and judge, are white. Zimmerman is latino
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (10) Jul 27, 2013
"14-year-old, who was babysitting 3 siblings, ran and got his father's gun when an unknown man came pounding on the door. When the intruder burst in with his own weapon, the boy shot him."
""This was mid-block in a neighborhood, at 4:30 in the afternoon in summertime and children are there," Holmes said. "They just took a heck of a gamble for this particular house."

Read more: http://www.nydail...aFZTQpwx

Please sign in to add a comment. Registration is free, and takes less than a minute. Read more

Click here to reset your password.
Sign in to get notified via email when new comments are made.