Climate change deniers using dirty tricks from 'tobacco wars'

Jul 04, 2013

Fossil fuel companies have been funding smear campaigns that raise doubts about climate change, writes John Sauven in the latest issue of Index on Censorship magazine.

Environmental campaigner Sauven argues: "Some of the characters involved have previously worked to deny the reality of the hole in the ozone layer, and the link between tobacco and lung cancer. And the tactics they are applying are largely the same as those they used in the tobacco wars. Doubt is still their product."

Governments around the world have also attempted to silence scientists who have raised concerns about climate change. Tactics used have included: the UK millions infiltrating peaceful environmental organisations; Canadian government scientists barred from communicating with journalists without media officers; and US federal scientists pressured to remove words 'global warming' and 'climate change' from reports under the Bush administration.

Writing about government corruption in the Indian , Sauven says: "It will be in these expanding economies that the battle over the Earth's future will be won or lost. And as in the tobacco wars, the fight over clean energy is likely to be a dirty one."

Explore further: Obama readies climate change push at UN summit

More information: Index on Censorship 41 issue 2, The multi-polar challenge to free expression will be out on July 9th.

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Grallen
4.3 / 5 (27) Jul 04, 2013
Not exactly unexpected. When you need a spin-doctor, you go to the ones that have done well in the past.

I guess it still needed to be said. The more people that realize they are being manipulated, the more people that will decide to do their own research.
alfie_null
4.3 / 5 (6) Jul 04, 2013
More information: Index on Censorship 41 issue 2, The multi-polar challenge to free expression will be out on July 9th.

Which, somewhat ironically, isn't itself free.
ScooterG
1.5 / 5 (35) Jul 04, 2013
"Doubt is still their product"

As Maggnus the conspiracy guru would boisterously claim "CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY!"

LMAO
Maggnus
3.8 / 5 (31) Jul 04, 2013
Governments around the world have also attempted to silence scientists who have raised concerns about climate change.


But but but....the bunker-dwelling Tin Foil Hat (TM) Brigade (ScooterG, Claudius, Ubavontuba, cantdrive55, antigoracle etc etc) have all been howling about how AGW is being falsely used by the evil government to steal our taxes and destroy our liberties!!!

HAHAHA how is THAT for irony! Best laugh I've had in a long time!
Maggnus
3.9 / 5 (29) Jul 04, 2013
In my opinion the majority of global warming effect is caused with dark matter clouds penetrating the solar system.


Awww Zephyr is feeling all left out because no one gives a damn about his pet theory!

Your opinion on this, as with many other things you post including everything to do with your stupid aether theory, is wrong.

There. I've paid attention to you. Will you go back to putting your misunderstandings of physics on articles about physics now? That's a good boy!
Maggnus
4 / 5 (28) Jul 04, 2013
As Maggnus the conspiracy guru would boisterously claim "CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY!"

LMAO


Says the guy who thinks he is not claiming a conspiracy because when he describes his view of the conspiracy he doesn't use the word "conspiracy" in his description! Laughable as usual.

See dumdum, I don't think there is a conspiracy, I think there are a sad but predictable cadre of individual bunker-dwelling denialists who have no real understanding of science and who step all over each other trying to prove that their particular twisted bent on the conspiracy is the correct one. You included dumdum!
Maggnus
3.8 / 5 (25) Jul 04, 2013
hey jeokster, how's that for funny!?! C'mon admit it, you smiled!
Howhot
4 / 5 (31) Jul 04, 2013
Governments around the world have also attempted to silence scientists who have raised concerns about climate change.


But but but....the bunker-dwelling Tin Foil Hat (TM) Brigade (ScooterG, Claudius, Ubavontuba, cantdrive55, antigoracle etc etc) have all been howling about how AGW is being falsely used by the evil government to steal our taxes and destroy our liberties!!!


That is so true. It makes you wonder of the empty brain cases of the foil hat brigade are in kahoots with the fossil fuel industry. It would not surprise me to find out that their home base is the wattsup website forum, which is funded by the shadow 501c Heartland Institutem (Mr Watt is paid nearly $100,000 to run that site from Heartland). It shows that being a denier can be lucrative.
Jimee
4.2 / 5 (26) Jul 04, 2013
This is what happens when sociopaths and narcissists are put in charge of hundreds of billions of dirty dollars. They don't care if the planet dies or if our children and children's children are doomed to a slow, aching death. They will live on their own personal island, and the rest of us be damned! Oops, their island will disappear too, but not before they are dead.
BobSage
1.9 / 5 (44) Jul 04, 2013
Calling people who disagree with your point of view "deniers" is like using the term "heretic" or "apostate". It is an ad hominem approach and not worthy of scientific discussion. There are plenty of data that may be used to argue against the theory that CO2 has caused global warming. You are not going to make them go away by calling people names.
antigoracle
1.5 / 5 (39) Jul 04, 2013
I wondered when the AGW Alarmist "scientists" ran out of lies, what they would do to keep the cult in check. Well, here we are, the latest in AGW Alarmist turd bait.
Maggnus
3.9 / 5 (29) Jul 04, 2013
Calling people who disagree with your point of view "deniers" is like using the term "heretic" or "apostate". It is an ad hominem approach and not worthy of scientific discussion. There are plenty of data that may be used to argue against the theory that CO2 has caused global warming. You are not going to make them go away by calling people names.


Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about. I am more than willing to discuss the issues with someone who disagrees with me. I have a problem with the lying skumbags who use misrepresented data, zombie arguments and affect a conspiracist mentality with every post they make.

Calling them "denialists" is the same as calling a person who doesn't believe in a god an atheist, or a practicing Catholic a Catholic. There is nothing "ad hominem" about it.

And as for trying to have a scientific conversation with them, whoo boy you obviously haven't spent any time at all reading their tripe.

There is NOT "plenty of data"!
VendicarE
4 / 5 (25) Jul 04, 2013
Your Opinion is less than worthless.

"In my opinion the majority of global warming effect is caused with dark matter clouds " - Natello
deepsand
2.7 / 5 (33) Jul 05, 2013
"Doubt is still their product"

As Maggnus the conspiracy guru would boisterously claim "CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY!"

LMAO

That's funny, coming from a dyed-in-the-wool conspiratorialist.
deepsand
2.8 / 5 (40) Jul 05, 2013
Calling people who disagree with your point of view "deniers" is like using the term "heretic" or "apostate". It is an ad hominem approach and not worthy of scientific discussion.

It is not ad hominem, but a matter of factual correctness that is relevant to the issue of credibility.
deepsand
2.5 / 5 (33) Jul 05, 2013
I wondered when the AGW Alarmist "scientists" ran out of lies, what they would do to keep the cult in check. Well, here we are, the latest in AGW Alarmist turd bait.

Time for your mommy to wipe the feces from your mouth and change your diaper.
VENDItardE
1.4 / 5 (30) Jul 05, 2013
careful there VendicarE...your sockpuppetism is showing.

Time for your mommy to wipe the feces from your mouth and change your diaper.
Neinsense99
3 / 5 (28) Jul 05, 2013
Your Opinion is less than worthless.

"In my opinion the majority of global warming effect is caused with dark matter clouds " - Natello

Somewhere, there is a speck of elemental worthlessness that feels insulted at being compared with such tripe.
Neinsense99
3 / 5 (28) Jul 05, 2013
careful there VendicarE...your sockpuppetism is showing.

Time for your mommy to wipe the feces from your mouth and change your diaper.

Yes, everyone else is a sock puppet, as evidenced by the overwhelming percentage of users who rank you 'number 1'....
antigoracle
1.4 / 5 (36) Jul 05, 2013
I have a problem with the lying skumbags who use misrepresented data, zombie arguments and affect a conspiracist mentality with every post they make.

Then you should not look at the Climate Gate emails from your AGW Alarmist "scientists", as I suspect you have not done.
Neinsense99
3.2 / 5 (33) Jul 05, 2013
I have a problem with the lying skumbags who use misrepresented data, zombie arguments and affect a conspiracist mentality with every post they make.

Then you should not look at the Climate Gate emails from your AGW Alarmist "scientists", as I suspect you have not done.

Yes, the already-debunked 'evidence' we should trust that just happens to be stolen for partisan purposes?
antigoracle
1.5 / 5 (36) Jul 05, 2013
I have a problem with the lying skumbags who use misrepresented data, zombie arguments and affect a conspiracist mentality with every post they make.

Then you should not look at the Climate Gate emails from your AGW Alarmist "scientists", as I suspect you have not done.

Yes, the already-debunked 'evidence' we should trust that just happens to be stolen for partisan purposes?

You obviously saw the version of Climate Gate that your AGW Alarmist blinders would only allow you to see and like the obedient donkey you are, you wear them with pride.

http://www.dailym...ils.html
VENDItardE
1.5 / 5 (32) Jul 05, 2013
amazing how all the "climate researchers" come here to try to deny the truth rather than correct their research.
deepsand
2.9 / 5 (34) Jul 05, 2013
amazing how all the "climate researchers" come here to try to deny the truth rather than correct their research.

How very descriptive of you and your ilk.
deepsand
3.1 / 5 (40) Jul 06, 2013
I have a problem with the lying skumbags who use misrepresented data, zombie arguments and affect a conspiracist mentality with every post they make.

Then you should not look at the Climate Gate emails from your AGW Alarmist "scientists", as I suspect you have not done.

What you refer to as Climate Gate has been demonstrated to be much ado about nothing.

Deal with it.
deepsand
2.8 / 5 (33) Jul 06, 2013
careful there VendicarE...your sockpuppetism is showing.

Time for your mommy to wipe the feces from your mouth and change your diaper.

Non sequitur, and plagiarism. Look for a letter from my lawyer re. the latter.
VendicarE
4.2 / 5 (25) Jul 06, 2013
"You obviously saw the version of Climate Gate..." - Anti-Gore-Tard

Climate-Gate = The failed attempt by dishonest denialists to discredit the worlds leading Climatologists through the misrepresentation of single sentence, out of context quotes, stolen from the personal files of those scientists.

Such is the extent of the Denialist dishonesty, and desperation.

VendicarE
4.2 / 5 (20) Jul 06, 2013
Sadly, the following is the Limiting extent of VendiTard's ability to reason.

"Time for your mommy to wipe the feces " - VendiTard

Is it any wonder why Conservatives like him are so hated?

VendiTard... Perpetually ranked 1 out of 5, only because a zero is not permitted.
VendicarE
4.3 / 5 (23) Jul 06, 2013
"This is what happens when sociopaths and narcissists are put in charge of hundreds of billions of dirty dollars." - Jimee

Since America has been so foolish to define a corporation as a person, it follows that they should be judged as a person. One who is mentally ill, a sociopath and a narcissist, fixated on money to the exclusion of all else.

They are mentally unfit to exist in a civil society and require psychiatric supervision, as does any other criminally insane individual.

antigoracle
1.2 / 5 (34) Jul 06, 2013
The final deceitful acts of desperation from the failed AGW Alarmist cult. They have exaggerated and sensationalized weather, preyed on human suffering and intimidated true climate scientists, with integrity, who refused to support their CO2 lie. All, just so they could continue to feed of the billions in research. So, here we are with this lie one that only the blind ignorant cultist would believe.
antigoracle
1.1 / 5 (32) Jul 06, 2013
This is what happens when sociopaths and narcissists are put in charge of hundreds of billions of dirty dollars. They don't care if the planet dies or if our children and children's children are doomed to a slow, aching death. They will live on their own personal island, and the rest of us be damned! Oops, their island will disappear too, but not before they are dead.

The above is a testament to the ignorance of the AGW cult. Looking at the rank they gave it, it's obvious that such ignoRANT filth is highly prized by them.
Do you turds read what you write before hitting submit?
Well do ya? Turd.
Stupidity is obviously the primary requirement for membership in the AGW Alarmist cult.
SteveS
4.5 / 5 (22) Jul 06, 2013
The final deceitful acts of desperation from the failed AGW Alarmist cult. They have exaggerated and sensationalized weather, preyed on human suffering and intimidated true climate scientists, with integrity, who refused to support their CO2 lie. All, just so they could continue to feed of the billions in research. So, here we are with this lie one that only the blind ignorant cultist would believe.


"There is a pervasive self-perception and self-presentation among conspiracy theorists as the victims of organized persecution. The theorist typically considers there self, at least tacitly, to be the brave antagonist of the nefarious intentions of the conspiracy; that is, the victim is also a potential hero. The theme of the victimization of conspiracy theorists or their allies features prominently in science denial, for example when isolated scientists who oppose the scientific consensus that HIV causes AIDS are presented as persecuted heroes and are likened to Galileo"
VendicarE
4 / 5 (17) Jul 06, 2013
"The final deceitful acts of desperation from the failed AGW Alarmist cult." - Anti-Gore-Tard

Anti-Gore... Your mental illness is particularly acute today. You need to call your Dr. and have him increase your dose of anti-psychotics.

VendicarE
4.3 / 5 (23) Jul 06, 2013
"Stupidity is obviously the primary requirement for membership in the AGW Alarmist cult." - Anti-Gore Tard

Yes, this is why the 98 percent of the worlds scientists who belong to the "cult" understand that the world is rapidly warming due to the anthropogenic emission of CO2.

It is funny to see an intellectual inferior like the Anti-Gore-Tard indirectly assert that 98 percent of the worlds scientists are ignorant.

How does it manage to feed itself?

Neinsense99
3.2 / 5 (25) Jul 06, 2013
"Stupidity is obviously the primary requirement for membership in the AGW Alarmist cult." - Anti-Gore Tard

Yes, this is why the 98 percent of the worlds scientists who belong to the "cult" understand that the world is rapidly warming due to the anthropogenic emission of CO2.

It is funny to see an intellectual inferior like the Anti-Gore-Tard indirectly assert that 98 percent of the worlds scientists are ignorant.

How does it manage to feed itself?


Is it just a script loaded on a server somewhere? If so, it might be feeding by power cord from evil AGW alarmist cult power sources like hydroelectric or wind. Otherwise, probably using processed pseudo-food in disposable, no-big-word packaging. Perhaps intravenous. For what might be the base of that speculative psuedo-food, I'll leave the derivation of a pattern from his/its comments as an exercise for the bored and soon-to-be-more-bored reader.
geokstr
1.4 / 5 (31) Jul 06, 2013
And this "article" on a science site is the "results" of a scientific "study" exactly how? I don't care which side of the fence you come down on, this is pure propaganda and opinion of a known partisan, more appropriate for a site like MediaMatters or DailyKos.
VendicarE
4.4 / 5 (20) Jul 06, 2013
Poor Geokstr - he didn't even read the article.

What a moron.
antigoracle
1.1 / 5 (29) Jul 06, 2013
"Stupidity is obviously the primary requirement for membership in the AGW Alarmist cult." - Anti-Gore Tard

Yes, this is why the 98 percent of the worlds scientists who belong to the "cult" understand that the world is rapidly warming due to the anthropogenic emission of CO2.

It is funny to see an intellectual inferior like the Anti-Gore-Tard indirectly assert that 98 percent of the worlds scientists are ignorant.

How does it manage to feed itself?


Ha..ha..ha..98 percent...you really fell for that lie.
You are 100 percent stupid.
My conclusion stands.
VendicarE
4.2 / 5 (22) Jul 06, 2013
"Ha..ha..ha..98 percent...you really fell for that lie." - Anti-Gore-Tard

Study Affirms Consensus on Climate Change

http://green.blog...-change/
VendicarE
4.2 / 5 (20) Jul 06, 2013
The end times are at hand for the Anti-Gore-Tard and his sick brothers in crime.

The era of Capitalism is over.
Neinsense99
3.4 / 5 (30) Jul 06, 2013
"Stupidity is obviously the primary requirement for membership in the AGW Alarmist cult." - Anti-Gore Tard

Yes, this is why the 98 percent of the worlds scientists who belong to the "cult" understand that the world is rapidly warming due to the anthropogenic emission of CO2.

It is funny to see an intellectual inferior like the Anti-Gore-Tard indirectly assert that 98 percent of the worlds scientists are ignorant.

How does it manage to feed itself?


Ha..ha..ha..98 percent...you really fell for that lie.
You are 100 percent stupid.
My conclusion stands.

100% evidence-free, as always. Ya gotta love that consistency!
deepsand
3 / 5 (32) Jul 06, 2013
"Stupidity is obviously the primary requirement for membership in the AGW Alarmist cult." - Anti-Gore Tard

Yes, this is why the 98 percent of the worlds scientists who belong to the "cult" understand that the world is rapidly warming due to the anthropogenic emission of CO2.

It is funny to see an intellectual inferior like the Anti-Gore-Tard indirectly assert that 98 percent of the worlds scientists are ignorant.

How does it manage to feed itself?


Ha..ha..ha..98 percent...you really fell for that lie.
You are 100 percent stupid.
My conclusion stands.

Indeed it does stand, as a naked assertion.

Don't know what that is? Look it up.
deepsand
3 / 5 (32) Jul 07, 2013
And this "article" on a science site is the "results" of a scientific "study" exactly how? I don't care which side of the fence you come down on, this is pure propaganda and opinion of a known partisan, more appropriate for a site like MediaMatters or DailyKos.

Did you just come out of a coma?
Neinsense99
3.2 / 5 (24) Jul 07, 2013
"Stupidity is obviously the primary requirement for membership in the AGW Alarmist cult." - Anti-Gore Tard

Yes, this is why the 98 percent of the worlds scientists who belong to the "cult" understand that the world is rapidly warming due to the anthropogenic emission of CO2.

It is funny to see an intellectual inferior like the Anti-Gore-Tard indirectly assert that 98 percent of the worlds scientists are ignorant.

How does it manage to feed itself?


Ha..ha..ha..98 percent...you really fell for that lie.
You are 100 percent stupid.
My conclusion stands.

Indeed it does stand, as a naked assertion.

Don't know what that is? Look it up.

Shouldn't he look down if his assertion is naked? Perhaps it might be best if he didn't...
deepsand
3 / 5 (32) Jul 07, 2013
On the other hand, having him take the time to search for it would give us a nice long break from his inanities.
Czcibor
1.2 / 5 (25) Jul 07, 2013
"Some of the characters involved have previously worked to deny the reality of the hole in the ozone layer, acid rain [...]"

Well, if I were on their position I'd be caution not compare AGW to acid rains. I my mean acid rains turned out later to actually to fertilize plants instead of making great harm, what made the people making panic look a bit silly.
Czcibor
1 / 5 (19) Jul 07, 2013
[double post]
antigoracle
1.1 / 5 (28) Jul 07, 2013
"Ha..ha..ha..98 percent...you really fell for that lie." - Anti-Gore-Tard

Study Affirms Consensus on Climate Change

http://green.blog...-change/

Hmmm... strong be the stupidity in this one, strong...100 percent strong.
It is so funny, a "study" weighted in favor of the AGW Alarmists, still finds those who say AGW is a lie. Keep drinking the kool-aid turd.

"This is a completely unconvincing analysis," says climate expert Judith Curry of the Georgia Institute of Technology, who was included in neither group.

http://news.scien...ate.html
Neinsense99
3.3 / 5 (26) Jul 07, 2013
"Ha..ha..ha..98 percent...you really fell for that lie." - Anti-Gore-Tard

Study Affirms Consensus on Climate Change

http://green.blog...-change/

Judith Curry is hardly objective, and seems to have left the scientific method behind thinkprogress.org/climate/2010/04/28/205879/judith-curry-mcintyre-watts/
VendicarE
4.3 / 5 (19) Jul 07, 2013
"I my mean acid rains turned out later to actually to fertilize" - CzciTard

Yes. Sulfuric acid is plant food.

Moron
ryggesogn2
1.1 / 5 (29) Jul 07, 2013
Governments around the world have also attempted to silence scientists who have raised concerns about climate change.


The solution, which is not acceptable to 'liberals'/socialists is support and advocate for a govt with limited power.
The real issue is not silencing scientists, but who controls the power of the state.
If the state has limited, defined powers, there will be little to fight over.
Noumenon
1.8 / 5 (59) Jul 07, 2013
Hypocritical. Here we have "study" which purports to associate those who question AGW predictions with tactics of the tobacco corporations, clearly as a means of marginalizing them, and refers to those who question AGW predictions as "deniers". This in itself is a propaganda tactic no different in purpose than that charged.

Fossil fuel companies have been funding smear campaigns that raise doubts about climate change


This statement further demonstrates that the point of the above "study" is of the same purpose it charges of others; smear campaign propaganda.

Raising doubts about scientific claims is not "smear campaigns". The fact that the above dolt would word it that way, proves he's in the same business. Skepticism is vital to science and should be the working default.
VendicarE
4.2 / 5 (17) Jul 07, 2013
"Judith Curry is hardly objective, and seems to have left the scientific method behind " - Neinense99

She has become a laughing stock of the Scientific Community. Her error prone pronouncements are almost as hilarious as the claim that the sun is a ball of iron, and that the earth composed mostly of Uranium.

VendicarE
4.4 / 5 (20) Jul 07, 2013
"The real issue is not silencing scientists, but who controls the power of the state." - RyggTard

The Libertarian preference is for Corporations to control the state.

I.E. The Libertarian preference is Fascism.

Neinsense99
3.3 / 5 (26) Jul 07, 2013
Hypocritical. Here we have "study" which purports to associate those who question AGW predictions with tactics of the tobacco corporations, clearly as a means of marginalizing them, and refers to those who question AGW predictions as "deniers". This in itself is a propaganda tactic no different in purpose than that charged.

Fossil fuel companies have been funding smear campaigns that raise doubts about climate change


This statement further demonstrates that the point of the above "study" is of the same purpose it charges of others; smear campaign propaganda.

Raising doubts about scientific claims is not "smear campaigns". The fact that the above dolt would word it that way, proves he's in the same business. Skepticism is vital to science and should be the working default.

Scrabbling desperately to achieve that false equivalence.
VendicarE
4.1 / 5 (18) Jul 07, 2013
Here we have NumenTard who is incapable of comprehending that those who employ the underhanded and dishonest tactics of the Tobacco Industry have marginalized and villified themselves through their own actions.

"Here we have "study" which purports to associate those who question AGW predictions with tactics of the tobacco corporations, clearly as a means of marginalizing them" - NumenTard

NumenTard is looking for any way to excuse denialist deceit.

There is no excuse of course, and the punishment for the denialist treason against man and nature will be death by public execution.
Noumenon
1.7 / 5 (58) Jul 07, 2013
Hypocritical. Here we have "study" which purports to associate those who question AGW predictions with tactics of the tobacco corporations, clearly as a means of marginalizing them, and refers to those who question AGW predictions as "deniers".

Fossil fuel companies have been funding smear campaigns that raise doubts about climate change


This statement further demonstrates that the point of the above "study" is of the same purpose it charges of others; smear campaign propaganda.

Raising doubts about scientific claims is not "smear campaigns". The fact that the above dolt would word it that way, proves he's in the same business. Skepticism is vital to science and should be the working default.

Scrabbling desperately to achieve that false equivalence.


Yes that's exactly the stretch that the above "study" did in associating tobacco with "the AGW deniers". I merely pointed it out.
Noumenon
1.6 / 5 (57) Jul 07, 2013
Here we have Noumenon (my superior) who is incapable of comprehending that those who employ the underhanded and dishonest tactics of the Tobacco Industry have marginalized and villified themselves through their own actions.


I'm didn't defend the tobacco company, numbnutz. The act of associating, in order to marginalize, people who question AGW predictions with tobacco companies,.... is the same smear tactics.

There is no excuse of course, and the punishment for the denialist treason against man and nature will be death by public execution.


So, the fantasy force your mental derangement dreams up to "save the planet", would also sentence to "death by public execution" those who maintain free thought? Who will save humanity from them?

Your posts are cartoonish and adolescent.
Czcibor
1.2 / 5 (23) Jul 07, 2013
"I my mean acid rains turned out later to actually to fertilize" - CzciTard

Yes. Sulfuric acid is plant food.

Moron


"The simulated acid rain may have contributed to the nutritional requirements of soybeans by providing S and N during the critical pod-filling stage."
https://dl.scienc...00040473

Especially nitrogen acid acts as fertilizer (in not too high dose), but funny to say for some plants like cabbage also sulphur boost growth.

But I appreciate that you honestly signed your post... by writing "Moron".
julianpenrod
1 / 5 (24) Jul 07, 2013
There are other tactics, as well.
Among them, casually assuming that the other side is universally wrong and your side is unequivocally right. How much do you hear about connivery among "climate change", or, perhaps, a/k/a/ "clean energy industries" adherents? "It's impossible for 'scientists' to lie! Everything they say must be considered the absolute truth!" Which includes implications from what they don't say. To be sure, there does seem to be a change in the world's weather, but they automatically equate that to "new energy systems", and they conveniently "conclude", "Since we need new energy systems, it must be true without question that those new systems are clean and efficient, even if they aren't!" In fact, wind farms and solar farms can cause massive damage. Also, since this is all apparently aimed to promote "new energy", there is no address that climate change is really caused by chemtrail doping of the atmosphere with weather modification chemicals.
VendicarE
4.6 / 5 (13) Jul 07, 2013
"It's impossible for 'scientists' to lie! " - JulianTard

How do you conclude that when we have established that the Denialist industry has paid scientists like Fred Singer, and the corrupt Idso Family among others to lie to advance the cause of the corporate destruction of mankind for the purpose of lining their own pocket books?

VendicarE
4.7 / 5 (15) Jul 07, 2013
"I'm didn't defend the tobacco company, numbnutz." - NumenTard

No one said you did. You have defended the same actions used by the corrupt tobacco industry, used by the same people and organizations who were empoloyed by the tobacco industry to advance the profits of that industry over the health and welfare of real people.

Not only that, but you dishonestly altered the quote you ascribe to me, by including words tht I did not write.

Poor NumenTard. His goal seems to be to tell at least one lie in every one of his comments.

How Republican of him.
Neinsense99
3.3 / 5 (23) Jul 07, 2013
"I'm didn't defend the tobacco company, numbnutz." - NumenTard

No one said you did. You have defended the same actions used by the corrupt tobacco industry, used by the same people and organizations who were empoloyed by the tobacco industry to advance the profits of that industry over the health and welfare of real people.

Not only that, but you dishonestly altered the quote you ascribe to me, by including words tht I did not write.

Poor NumenTard. His goal seems to be to tell at least one lie in every one of his comments.

How Republican of him.

In that, at least, he appears to have achieved some measure of personal success. :)
VendicarE
4.4 / 5 (14) Jul 07, 2013
"The simulated acid rain may have contributed to the nutritional requirements of soybeans by providing S and N during the critical pod-filling stage."- CzciTard

"may have contributed".

Can you find anything else other than that 32 year old study that hasn't been replicated since?

Moron.
JohnGee
3.3 / 5 (21) Jul 07, 2013
Your posts are cartoonish and adolescent.


Noumenon, you quote Homer Simpson (as a voice of authority) in another topic, and call someone "numbnutz" in the same post you made the above statement. Do you not read what you write?
Noumenon
1.6 / 5 (53) Jul 07, 2013
"I'm didn't defend the tobacco company, numbnutz." - Noumenon


No one said you did. You have defended the same actions used by the corrupt tobacco industry, used by the same people and organizations who were empoloyed by the tobacco industry to advance the profits of that industry over the health and welfare of real people.


What such actions have I defended? You just made that up entirely. Dishonest and a hypocrite you are.

I pointed out something specific,... that the act of associating failed tobacco company policy with those skeptical of AGW predictions, is itsef a propaganda tactic used to marginalize, and as such is hypocritical.
Noumenon
1.7 / 5 (53) Jul 07, 2013
Your posts are cartoonish and adolescent.


Noumenon, you quote Homer Simpson (as a voice of authority) in another topic, and call someone "numbnutz" in the same post you made the above statement. Do you not read what you write?


Do you understand the concept of comedy? Homer was all the authority that was required in that thread, sadly,... but the quote itself was a joke which should have been obvious.

It is interesting that you would go out of your way to point that out about my posts, even conflating two threads,.... but yet seem to have no like motivation in response to a poster who constantly calls others 'tards and morons', and mentions "death by public execution" for those who question AGW predictions. Do you not see a problem with VendicarE posts to mention,... or is it just that you've lowered the bar for the far left?

It's remarkable that you had no issues with WHY I made the above statement. You have zero integrity.
freeiam
1.2 / 5 (23) Jul 07, 2013

Yes, this is why the 98 percent of the worlds scientists who belong to the "cult" understand that the world is rapidly warming due to the anthropogenic emission of CO2.


That pesty 2%.
Did anyone explain to you that science has nothing to do with consensus?

Tessellatedtessellations
3.5 / 5 (21) Jul 07, 2013
I would like to know what is wrong with denialists and if they are even actual human beings. Are the sullen children trying to get a rise out of people? Are they really stupid? Are they insane? Are they salesmen lacking conscience? Do they wish everyone dead? Are they afraid of facing reality? Are they brainwashed members of a cult? Are "they" programs running on some sleazy marketing agency's servers--I have read about the US government using privately developed software to do psyops on populations. Why wouldn't a corporation do the same? I would love to get my hands on this site's server logs to see what IP addresses they login from. Do they quickly login from multiple distant locations or from IP addresses that aren't owned by ISPs? How many sockpuppets are there?

Surely there must be grad students in need of a thesis subject?

Is there a way to reconnect denialists to reality?
antigoracle
1.2 / 5 (25) Jul 07, 2013
I would like to know what is wrong with denialists and if they are even actual human beings. Are the sullen children trying to get a rise out of people? Are they really stupid? Are they insane? Are they salesmen lacking conscience? Do they wish everyone dead? Are they afraid of facing reality? Are they brainwashed members of a cult? Are "they" programs running on some sleazy marketing agency's servers--I have read about the US government using privately developed software to do psyops on populations. Why wouldn't a corporation do the same? I would love to get my hands on this site's server logs to see what IP addresses they login from. Do they quickly login from multiple distant locations or from IP addresses that aren't owned by ISPs? How many sockpuppets are there?

Surely there must be grad students in need of a thesis subject?

Is there a way to reconnect denialists to reality?

Your institution needs to limit your computer time and up your meds.
JohnGee
3.4 / 5 (20) Jul 07, 2013
Do you understand the concept of comedy?
It wasn't a joke. Context makes this obvious. You were seriously quoting Homer Simpson. I would just pretend it didn't happen and not mention it anymore.

It is interesting that you would go out of your way to point that out about my posts, even conflating two threads
Rather than call you a liar, I'll assume English isn't your first language. I did not conflate the two. I specifically mentioned the comments came from two different articles.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (25) Jul 07, 2013
Doubt is still their product.

Doubt used to be a hallmark of science.
raised concerns about climate change.

What should have been of more concern to AGWites is focusing on adapting to a changing climate, since no one can deny climate has been changing for thousands of years.
But AGWites were more concerned about controlling the world than adapting to it.
lengould100
4.7 / 5 (14) Jul 07, 2013
"Some of the characters involved have previously worked to deny the reality of the hole in the ozone layer, acid rain [...]"

Well, if I were on their position I'd be caution not compare AGW to acid rains. I my mean acid rains turned out later to actually to fertilize plants instead of making great harm, what made the people making panic look a bit silly.


Well there's an hypothesis which is definitely wrong, evidence the complete destruction of all plant life within 50 km of the smelter stacks in Sudbury, Canada in the 1960's, since somewhat improved. Acid rain KILLS DEAD.
deepsand
2.7 / 5 (29) Jul 07, 2013
Your institution needs to limit your computer time and up your meds.

A request that should be directed to your keepers.
VendicarE
4.4 / 5 (13) Jul 07, 2013
"Doubt used to be a hallmark of science." - RyggTard

Deceit and ignorance have always been the hallmarks of Randites.

Remind us again, why your hero, Ayn Rand, was a welfare queen, RyggTard?
VendicarE
4.4 / 5 (13) Jul 07, 2013
"Did anyone explain to you that science has nothing to do with consensus?" - FreeTard

Really? The consensus of scientists disagree with you.

You sound like someone who is so spectacularly ignorant that you are ignorant of the extent of your own ignorance.

VendicarE
4.4 / 5 (13) Jul 07, 2013
"Do you understand the concept of comedy?" - NumenTard

I do. I also recognize when someone like yourself is caught eating their own dung and claims that they were just doing it to get laughs.

Filth.
lengould100
4.6 / 5 (11) Jul 07, 2013
deepsand
2.7 / 5 (29) Jul 07, 2013
But AGWites were more concerned about controlling the world than adapting to it.

In reality, that's the desire of the neo-conservatards.
Noumenon
1.8 / 5 (55) Jul 07, 2013
Do you understand the concept of comedy?

It wasn't a joke. Context makes this obvious. You were seriously quoting Homer Simpson. I would just pretend it didn't happen and not mention it anymore.


I did not say it was unrelated to my post. Of course it was. That's is why it was chosen. This in no way takes away from the fact that it was a joke. Yes, I was seriously quoting Homer Simpson, but obviously tongue in cheek. What are you objecting to?

Here is the full post,...

For every inconvenient truth, the AGW propagandists have another "study" waiting to obscure it. There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure the truth.

"facts schmacks,... you could use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true" - Homer J. Simpson

Noumenon
1.8 / 5 (52) Jul 07, 2013
It is interesting that you would go out of your way to point that out about my posts, even conflating two threads

Rather than call you a liar, I'll assume English isn't your first language. I did not conflate the two. I specifically mentioned the comments came from two different articles.


The meaning of 'conflate' does not depend upon whether you specifically mentioned that or not. Rather than call you a liar, I'll assume English is your first language but that you're borderline illiterate.

conflate;
1 a : to bring together : fuse
b : confuse
2 : to combine (as two readings of a text) into a composite whole
Moebius
2.1 / 5 (14) Jul 08, 2013
Hollywood is going to need these guys someday to prove they aren't social engineers for profit.
runrig
4.7 / 5 (14) Jul 08, 2013

Yes, this is why the 98 percent of the worlds scientists who belong to the "cult" understand that the world is rapidly warming due to the anthropogenic emission of CO2.


That pesty 2%.
Did anyone explain to you that science has nothing to do with consensus?



Did anyone explain to you the reason democracy is the "worst form of government - apart from all the others we've tried"? ( Churchill ). Err, there will rarely be 100% agreement in anything in life. If a Saucer landed on the white house lawn in front of live TV cameras a significant proportion of the world will deny it. Democracy gets around that by going with the majority.

Can you think of another way to assume that science ( or any other question mankind needs to solve ) is on the right track?
Perhaps you advocate we go with the inverse of agreement?
freeiam
1 / 5 (20) Jul 08, 2013
"Did anyone explain to you that science has nothing to do with consensus?" - FreeTard

Really? The consensus of scientists disagree with you.

You sound like someone who is so spectacularly ignorant that you are ignorant of the extent of your own ignorance.



Science is about finding the nature of reality with observation and reasoning and is unaltered by the majority vote of a tea party even if its a scientific one. Wrong is wrong even by consensus.

You sound like someone who is full of himself and has the arrogance and the aholeness of a true academic. Good luck with that.
freeiam
1 / 5 (20) Jul 08, 2013

Can you think of another way to assume that science ( or any other question mankind needs to solve ) is on the right track?
Perhaps you advocate we go with the inverse of agreement?

Yes, facts and logic. No arguing about that.
runrig
5 / 5 (11) Jul 08, 2013
Science is about finding the nature of reality with observation and reasoning and is unaltered by the majority vote of a tea party even if its a scientific one. Wrong is wrong even by consensus.


Of course wrong is wrong even by consensus. The point is that it is much less likely to be wrong by consensus - and, as is the case with democracy, that is the best we can do. At what degree do you propose we call it unsatisfactory? Do you require 100%? Wrong can be wrong even by unanimity.
Life isn't perfect. We have to make compromises.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (21) Jul 08, 2013
We have to make compromises.

Like compromising to legalize slavery to create the USA?
as is the case with democracy, that is the best we can do.

No, it's not.
That's why moral standards are so important.
JohnGee
3.4 / 5 (17) Jul 08, 2013
It is interesting that you would go out of your way to point that out about my posts, even conflating two threads

Rather than call you a liar, I'll assume English isn't your first language. I did not conflate the two. I specifically mentioned the comments came from two different articles.


The meaning of 'conflate' does not depend upon whether you specifically mentioned that or not. Rather than call you a liar, I'll assume English is your first language but that you're borderline illiterate.

conflate;
1 a : to bring together : fuse
b : confuse
2 : to combine (as two readings of a text) into a composite whole


I used 'conflate' correctly and in the exact same manner you did. You really don't read what you post do you? Maybe you can't because you're borderline illiterate. A bit of advice: if you are going to be such a smarmy prick, you better make sure you are right.
runrig
5 / 5 (10) Jul 08, 2013
We have to make compromises.

Like compromising to legalize slavery to create the USA?
as is the case with democracy, that is the best we can do.

No, it's not.
That's why moral standards are so important.


You have a better system of government than Democracy.
Pray tell?

ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (22) Jul 08, 2013
A constitutional republic is far superior to a democracy.
And the quality of that constitution is quite important.
JohnGee
3.4 / 5 (20) Jul 08, 2013
The republic vs democracy argument is meaningless. Is it strictly correct to say the US is a democracy? No, but it borders on meaningless to say it is a constitutional republic as a be-all-end-all descriptor. The Third Reich was a constitutional republic. North Korea is a constitutional republic. All republic means is "not a monarchy".

Representative democracy is more descriptive than constitutional republic and more accurate than democracy. For example, Great Britain, which has much more in common with the US than DPRK, could be described as a representative democracy, but not a constitutional republic. The DPRK could not be described as a representative democracy, but could be described as a constitutional republic.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (22) Jul 08, 2013
I said the quality of the constitution is quite important.
Which republic is France on now?
The fundamental quality of a constitution was explicitly stated in the US Declaration of Independence
"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
This part clearly states that individual rights are inherent and unalienable.
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, "
And not granted by a man or a group of men (govt). But govts are formed to protect those rights.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. "
http://www.belief...e_1.html

ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (22) Jul 08, 2013
The federalism and enumerated powers were designed to limit the damage caused by immoral people.

Adams is warning is coming to pass as the people are immoral and irreligious.

I propose a few fixes. Repeal the 16th and 17th amendments. Define the number of citizens a Representative can represent to be between 150,000 and 200,000.
And something needs to be done to define the power of the Supreme Court.
It won't solve the morality issue raised by Adams but it will return some power to the states and the people.
JohnGee
3.5 / 5 (16) Jul 08, 2013
Which republic is France on now?
The fifth, I believe. The US is on its second.

Define the number of citizens a Representative can represent to be between 150,000 and 200,000.
This is a good idea, but the original formulation was 30,000 to 50,000. Still anything is an improvement.

The fundamental quality of a constitution was explicitly stated in the US Declaration of Independence
It's a founding document, but it has never carried the force of law and is not a constitution. Fortunately, the framers left gods out of the Constitution.
Noumenon
1.7 / 5 (48) Jul 08, 2013
It is interesting that you would go out of your way to point that out about my posts, even conflating two threads - N

Rather than call you a liar, I'll assume English isn't your first language. I did not conflate the two. I specifically mentioned the comments came from two different articles. - JD


The meaning of 'conflate' does not depend upon whether you specifically mentioned that or not. [....]

conflate;
1 a : to bring together : fuse
b : confuse
2 : to combine (as two readings of a text) into a composite whole
-N


I used 'conflate' correctly and in the exact same manner you did. - JD


You claimed MY use of that word was wrong, you dishonest troll. You clearly thought it exclusively meant , 'to confuse' or 'unknowingly to combine'. It does not, as you can see from definition #2 that I provided. My use of that word was correct, and your admonishment of me backfired. Eat crow or refuse to admit you were wrong.
JohnGee
3.3 / 5 (16) Jul 08, 2013
Noumenon, you claimed MY use of that word was wrong, you dishonest troll. My use of that word was correct, and your admonishment of me backfired. Eat crow or refuse to admit you were wrong.
Noumenon
1.6 / 5 (48) Jul 08, 2013
Noumenon, you claimed MY use of that word was wrong, you dishonest troll. My use of that word was correct, and your admonishment of me backfired. Eat crow or refuse to admit you were wrong.


I'll accept this immaturity as a full capitulation.
JohnGee
3.3 / 5 (17) Jul 08, 2013
It's immature to state the truth? You're just mad I truthfully used the same words you lied with.
Noumenon
1.6 / 5 (49) Jul 08, 2013
It's immature to state the truth? You're just mad I truthfully used the same words you lied with.


Huh?

1) You stated..."I did not conflate the two - JD"
2) then immediately admitted... "the comments came from two different articles. -JD"

These two statements are contradictory according to the definition of the word used by me and provided for you in definition #2. QED

Dishonest mush-head with defective logic, ripe for spoon feeding liberalism.

You never answered my question; You saw no problems with Vendicar's posts to admonish, or is it that the Bar of acceptable behavior is much lower for the far left?
JohnGee
3.1 / 5 (17) Jul 08, 2013
Huh?

1) You stated..."I did not conflate the two - JD"
2) then immediately admitted... "the comments came from two different articles. -JD"

These two statements are contradictory according to the definition of the word used by me and provided for you in definition #2. QED
But you just said I was accusing you of this (which was a lie). You're not very good at keeping your lies straight.

Funny you don't quote definition #2 because that's exactly how I used it, correctly.

I'll do everyone here a favor and quit feeding you, troll.
Shelgeyr
1.5 / 5 (23) Jul 08, 2013
Climate change deniers using dirty tricks from 'tobacco wars


Translation: "Waaaaaaaaaaaah! (sob!)"

I gotta admit, I haven't read "Index on Censorship 41 issue 2" for the two equally-valid reasons of 1) It won't be published until tomorrow, and 2) I'm not a masochist. But as far as THIS article's attempt to sum up THAT article, I must say that it is very long on accusation, and completely devoid of evidence. It doesn't even bother to name names from amongst the presumed perpetrators.

Therefore, I think the best advice I can offer the as-far-as-I-can-tell uncredited author is:
"Life is tough - get a helmet. Had you turned this article in for a grade, I'd have given you an F, and made you understand why. Finally, you should consider suing whatever institution of higher learning you attended, because they may have defrauded you."

PS: Every accusation in this screed MAY be true.

That's not the point. The article resoundingly fails to make its case, even in a sympathetic venue.
runrig
4.7 / 5 (13) Jul 09, 2013
A constitutional republic is far superior to a democracy.
And the quality of that constitution is quite important.


My raising of "Democracy" within this thread was purely to illustrate that everything in life is a compromise - it is necessary to take human nature into account. A democracy ( as in a voted in by and representative of the people - Party, President or Prime minister ) must speak for all the people but was not voted in by all the people.
To expect 100% unanimity from scientists - is to impose a standard that is both not achievable given the above and above all unreasonable.
It is the same with moral standards - to imply that scientists ( if you were) have lower moral standards on average than non-scientists, or to appeal to them to have higher ones than than the average is disingenuous.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (22) Jul 09, 2013
it is necessary to take human nature into account.

Except, of course, when it comes to socialist policies to control the economy to 'save the planet'.
Adam Smith observed people acting in their self interest get the food to your table. Free market capitalism DOES account for human nature without the need deadly force.
Socialism needs to threaten, coerce and use deadly force as central planning disregards human nature.
runrig
4.4 / 5 (12) Jul 09, 2013
Adam Smith observed people acting in their self interest get the food to your table. Free market capitalism DOES account for human nature without the need deadly force.
Socialism needs to threaten, coerce and use deadly force as central planning disregards human nature.


I agree that ( in its extreme form ) socialism can do as you say. But we all know that extremes in any movement are obnoxious. You can have degrees and given a global problem some form of "organisation" is required to mobilise both agreement on what should be done and the doing of it. If you think "society" can get things done on a global scale without you necessarily labeling it "Socialism" that solution evades me ( given the time scale ).
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (22) Jul 09, 2013
I agree that ( in its extreme form ) socialism can do as you say.

Socialism in any form is extreme.
Even the Soviets acknowledged central planning is a failure because there is no feedback mechanism.
can get things done on a global scale

What do you want to 'get done'?
Liberty is slowing growing around the world because more nation-states are adopting less socialist policies.
The world exists in anarchy. How do you plan to force any nation-state to do your bidding?
runrig
4.7 / 5 (14) Jul 09, 2013

What do you want to 'get done'?
Liberty is slowing growing around the world because more nation-states are adopting less socialist policies.
The world exists in anarchy. How do you plan to force any nation-state to do your bidding?


I want the increasing CO2 emissions to come down - sustainably ie as quickly as possible without financial melt-down as technology advances - without obstructive agendas. The method is the persuasion of nation states that a particular course of action is necessary - not forcing them. This requires organisation - getting together to thrash out what each nation is able/willing to do. I don't agree with your interpretation that it is "Socialism" to do that. I call it action by "society". In a world increasingly ravaged by mankind, problems cannot be solved on a local scale. For a start the problem can only be perceived on a global scale ( again will will have to agree to differ ).
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (23) Jul 09, 2013
I want the increasing CO2 emissions to come down

Why?
Evidence that CO2 is significant is not great enough to take over the world.
I don't agree with your interpretation that it is "Socialism" to do that.

There is no world govt so you will have to persuade nation-state.
What are nation-states going to do? Use force. That is socialism.
Noumenon
1.6 / 5 (51) Jul 09, 2013
@runrig, I think your position as you expressed it above is quite reasonable. I too want to see CO2 emissions reduced. But lets not be naive. The political far left are out to use AGW to implement elements of socialism, by their own admission,... redistribution of wealth, social engineering (controlling human behavior), anti-capitalism, and artificial gov planning of energy.

Government planning has proven itself a failure over and over in history. It is artificial in that it works counter to the natural force of human instinctual behavior. The best choice to determine future energy use is a natural one, ...the free market and freedom of choice of individuals.

This means that alternatives have to compete with oil/coal and be chosen because it is cheaper and more efficient and therefore naturally desired. The alternative is to coerce and regulate and so to set up an artificial (planned) and weak foundation for economies. Governments have not proven competence to do this.
Noumenon
1.6 / 5 (51) Jul 09, 2013
The global argument about AGW should never have been about whether the theory is sound or not. This was a failed policy of the political Right, imo. Who is to win that argument but climate scientists? It should have been about their ability to prove their supposed few tenths of a degree per decade understanding via predictions (by their admittance their models failed to predict the prior decade leveling off), and about whether it is a 'catastrophic crises' to mankind or just something to be adapted to in time,... whether our ability to control the global climate is a realistic goal given our inability to prevent wars, genocide in modern times, and emergent 3rd world economies relying on carbon based energy to "make it".

While there is a scientific consensus wrt AGW as a legitimate discovery, their is a global consensus implied in the continued and increased use of oil/coal, that humanity is not in imminent danger from it.
PeterParker
4.1 / 5 (18) Jul 09, 2013
"Evidence that CO2 is significant is not great enough to take over the world." - RyggTard

Mindless...

Completely Mindless
PeterParker
4.1 / 5 (18) Jul 09, 2013
" Use force. That is socialism." - RyggTard

Not by any rational definition of the word "socialism"

But then you have your own Tardie-boy definitions for things.,

Noumenon
1.6 / 5 (52) Jul 09, 2013
"Evidence that CO2 is significant is not great enough to take over the world." - RyggTard

Mindless...

Completely Mindless


Why is that mindless? Do you see a global government taking over and regulating the basis of the world's economies, carbon based energy?

There is a consensus amongst world leaders that AGW is real, and yet they are not in fact handing over such control or even organizing a global government. Therefore his post was factual as it was conditioned on "to take over the world".

Perhaps your post was mindless and weak in logic.
freeiam
1 / 5 (22) Jul 09, 2013

I want the increasing CO2 emissions to come down - sustainably ie as quickly as possible without financial melt-down as technology advances - without obstructive agendas. The method is the persuasion of nation states that a particular course of action is necessary - not forcing them. This requires organisation - getting together to thrash out what each nation is able/willing to do. I don't agree with your interpretation that it is "Socialism" to do that. I call it action by "society". In a world increasingly ravaged by mankind, problems cannot be solved on a local scale. For a start the problem can only be perceived on a global scale ( again will will have to agree to differ ).


One of the problems of the focus on AGW is that it distracts from the real problems like (real) pollution and the human population problem and the loss of habitat of all other animals as a result of that.
A simple solution is to reduce the world population, this will solve AGW (when it's real) too.
Noumenon
1.5 / 5 (52) Jul 09, 2013
Now you see runrig, whenever you allow a leftest mentality that thinks in terms engineering society or coercive "planning", in order to "fix" the earths "problems", you end up with a bunch of freeiam's who actually think its appropriate to reduce human population to make more room for more squirrels.

For a government to tell people if and when they can procreate is social engineering (socialism) of the worst kind. This mentality is pervasive of the far left Nazi environmentalists and is stupidity of the dangerous kind. This is what the conservative Right fight against and is why the concern of the far left using AGW as a foot in the door for big-government "liberal progressives".
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (24) Jul 09, 2013
" Use force. That is socialism." - RyggTard

Not by any rational definition of the word "socialism"

But then you have your own Tardie-boy definitions for things.,


It not my definition.
All govts are force. A socialist govt uses that force to control people and property under its dominion.
An anti-socialist govt uses that force to protect the people and property under its dominion.
All AGW 'fixes' I have seen require taxes and laws (force) to control people and their property, socialism.
deepsand
2.7 / 5 (28) Jul 09, 2013
"Did anyone explain to you that science has nothing to do with consensus?" - FreeTard

Really? The consensus of scientists disagree with you.

You sound like someone who is so spectacularly ignorant that you are ignorant of the extent of your own ignorance.



Science is about finding the nature of reality with observation and reasoning and is unaltered by the majority vote of a tea party even if its a scientific one. Wrong is wrong even by consensus.

You sound like someone who is full of himself and has the arrogance and the aholeness of a true academic. Good luck with that.

You lack the humour to be entertaining, the knowledge to be informative, and have all the charm and attraction of a deceased rat which suffered from leprosy and incontinence.
deepsand
2.8 / 5 (29) Jul 09, 2013
The federalism and enumerated powers were designed to limit the damage caused by immoral people.

It was the ANTI-federalists who sought to limit the power of the federal government. And, they lost, as a careful and thoughtful reading of the first and last clauses of Article I, Section 8 will show.
deepsand
2.9 / 5 (30) Jul 09, 2013
Free market capitalism DOES account for human nature without the need deadly force.

Perhaps; but, it is not wholly self-regulating, in that it cannot be solely relied on to protect against the extremes born of greed.
deepsand
2.9 / 5 (30) Jul 09, 2013
Evidence that CO2 is significant is not great enough to take over the world.

There is no world govt so you will have to persuade nation-state.
What are nation-states going to do? Use force. That is socialism.

Calling everything that you don't like "socialism" is just plain stupid.

The use of force to preserve a viable habitat would be an act of self-defense.
runrig
4.8 / 5 (16) Jul 09, 2013
Free market capitalism DOES account for human nature without the need deadly force.

Perhaps; but, it is not wholly self-regulating, in that it cannot be solely relied on to protect against the extremes born of greed.


Precisely - regulation is required when a stock market giant buys up it's competitors. In the UK it's called the Monopolies and Mergers Commission.
Socialist engineering or sensible intervention to curb free market greed/power?

http://www.compet...about-us

A (totally) free market will inevitably lead to the strong engulfing the weak, and lead further, perversely, to a "socialist-like" single market.

The driving motivation of a free market is to make a profit. There are many things in life that need doing that will never return a profit. Who is to do them if not the State? A charity??
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (24) Jul 09, 2013
but, it is not wholly self-regulating, in that it cannot be solely relied on to protect against the extremes born of greed.


But you can trust greedy politicians? Free markets are regulated by customers and competition.
Calling everything that you don't like "socialism" is just plain stupid.

I call govts that control people and their property socialist. I don't like it. Why do you?
The use of force to preserve a viable habitat would be an act of self-defense.

If you owned the habitat.
regulation is required when a stock market giant buys up it's competitors

Why?
free market will inevitably lead to the strong engulfing the weak,
How?
There are many things in life that need doing that will never return a profit. Who is to do them if not the State? A charity??


Churches, family, charity, ....That worked quite well before the socialists took over.
antigoracle
1.3 / 5 (27) Jul 09, 2013
The AGW Alarmist turds and their shameless hypocrisy.
Read about your Vicar Gore, turds.
http://nofrakking...isy.html
runrig
4.8 / 5 (16) Jul 09, 2013
regulation is required when a stock market giant buys up it's competitors

Why?


What I said in my post - because the powerful ( in stock market terms ) take-over/merge with the weaker.
free market will inevitably lead to the strong engulfing the weak,

How?


Again, as I said in my post - because "business" is built on profit - which means getting bigger and "killing" your competition.
Which is why there are ( State imposed ) checks to limit your "free" market. Has to be.

There are many things in life that need doing that will never return a profit. Who is to do them if not the State? A charity??

Churches, family, charity, ....That worked quite well before the socialists took over.


I am talking of a global scale ( as is necessary to tackle AGW ). Your "Churches, family, charity" will just not do it. Quite plainly. I return to the issue of a "societal" response that only nation states can drive. It is not socialism, just common-sense.
runrig
4.7 / 5 (15) Jul 09, 2013
The AGW Alarmist turds and their shameless hypocrisy.
Read about your Vicar Gore, turds.
http://nofrakking...isy.html


Anti;

Rant all you want about Mr Gore. He was only the messenger - and you know what they say about shooting the messenger?

Constant jibbing at him only implies ( by association I assume ) that his message was wrong. Only the immature would arrive at that conclusion. Therefore you are just preaching to the converted.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (23) Jul 09, 2013
This socialist policy is much better than free markets?
""Less than a dozen of the largest and most complex banks are each capable -- through a series of missteps by their management -- of seriously damaging the vitality, resilience and prosperity that has personified the U.S. economy."
"Fisher and his colleagues at the Dallas Fed find that large financial institutions receive big implicit subsidies "
http://www.bloomb...ail.html
Mr Gore. He was only the messenger

BS: He was a senator and VP while Enron was lobbying for Kyoto.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (23) Jul 09, 2013
because the powerful ( in stock market terms ) take-over/merge with the weaker.;
which means getting bigger and "killing" your competition.

Back up your assertions.
only nation states can drive. It is not socialism, just common-sense.

Yes, it is socialism, controlling the people and their property.
runrig
4.7 / 5 (15) Jul 09, 2013
This socialist policy is much better than free markets?
""Less than a dozen of the largest and most complex banks are each capable -- through a series of missteps by their management -- of seriously damaging the vitality, resilience and prosperity that has personified the U.S. economy."
"Fisher and his colleagues at the Dallas Fed find that large financial institutions receive big implicit subsidies "
http://www.bloomb...ail.html
Mr Gore. He was only the messenger

BS: He was a senator and VP while Enron was lobbying for Kyoto.


BS yourself - he did not conjure up GHG and climate science himself. Just spread the message
Sorry ( note to myself ) - I keep forgetting how polarised you Americans are regarding your politics these days. Do try to put that to one side when conversing on a science site, especially when talking to an international audience.
runrig
4.7 / 5 (15) Jul 09, 2013
because the powerful ( in stock market terms ) take-over/merge with the weaker.;
which means getting bigger and "killing" your competition.

Back up your assertions.
only nation states can drive. It is not socialism, just common-sense.

Yes, it is socialism, controlling the people and their property.


Again - I did in my post.....
The UK Monopolies and Mergers commission. No doubt you have anti -trust laws?

eg...........
http://www.guardi...watchdog
Howhot
4.5 / 5 (17) Jul 09, 2013
R2, After reading much of your debate, I'm now convinced you are a closet socialist, with a desire to tax and spend everyone else's money and none of your own. It's pretty ridiculous to claim all of the benefits of no taxes and no regulation and at the same time disown the obligations to humanity and nature, so secretly you must want the Gov to pamper you and feed you while trying to make it appear as if you don't. As we used to call-em when I punched cattle on the farm; a flapping mouth of a city slickers. Tea party dip stick.

So about VP Al Gore on your guilt by association at Enron, you need to include just about every politician of that error, repug and dem, they had everyone fooled. But it's really no different then having lobbyist of Exxon tag along with GW to Iraq. Or Halliburton or ... etc. Actually you right wingers have done so much crap what Gore did isn't even in the same universe. And you want people to trust anyone not an R2 "socialist"! Give me a break.

deepsand
2.8 / 5 (30) Jul 09, 2013
but, it is not wholly self-regulating, in that it cannot be solely relied on to protect against the extremes born of greed.


But you can trust greedy politicians?

Non sequitur and irrelevant.

Free markets are regulated by customers and competition.

Repeating that BS is not going to make it true.

f you owned the habitat.[/]q
The habitat in questions belongs to ALL. You do not have the right to endanger others.

deepsand
2.7 / 5 (28) Jul 09, 2013
The AGW Alarmist turds and their shameless hypocrisy.
Read about your Vicar Gore, turds.
http://nofrakking...isy.html

Why don't you just clamp up real hard, so as to stop the constant flow of fecal matter from your orifices.
deepsand
3 / 5 (30) Jul 09, 2013
because the powerful ( in stock market terms ) take-over/merge with the weaker.;
which means getting bigger and "killing" your competition.

Back up your assertions.

This from the sophist who spawns one naked assertion after another, even when they are patently false on the face.

This from one who stupidly calls everything that he does not like "socialism."
VendicarE
4.5 / 5 (17) Jul 09, 2013
"Yes, it is socialism, controlling the people and their property." - RyggTard

So when society prohibits you from torturing your dog to death that is socialism?

So, when society prohibits you from dumping raw sewage in your back yard, that is socialism?

So when society prohibits you from causing the extinction of a plant or animal found only on your property, that is socialism?

So when society prohibits you from draining a tailings pond into a river, that is socialism?

So when society requires you abide by health standards for food you produce, that is socialism?

So when society requires you abide by building standards for buildings you own and intend to sell, that is socialism?

Well, then. Give me Socialism or give me Death.
VendicarE
4.3 / 5 (17) Jul 09, 2013
"I call govts that control people and their property socialist. I don't like it. Why do you?" - RtggTard

Awwwww.. Poor Baby. You don't like it...Couldn't your mommie make the bad government go away?

Well Idiot. If you don't like government then why aren't you living in the Libertarian Paradise of Somalia where there is no government, or on the high seas where you can spend the rest of your life absolutely free.

Most of the rest of us here are rational men, and as rational men we realize that apples, or spiders, government isn't in itself good or bad. Your childishly naive ideology holds that Gubderment is bad, which is no different than claiming that apples are bad or spiders are bad.

As to government itself, it is essential for the existence of anything more socially complex than a band of isolated nomads wandering the desert.

Where there is social interaction there needs to be rules governing those actions.

Where there are rules there must be rule makers, and rule enforcers
VendicarE
4.3 / 5 (17) Jul 09, 2013
"If you owned the habitat." - RyggTard

On what basis do you claim ownership of anything?

Why should anyone recognize your claim to own anything?

I signed no contract saying I would recognize your claimed right.
VendicarE
4.3 / 5 (16) Jul 09, 2013
"Precisely - regulation is required when a stock market giant buys up it's competitors. In the UK it's called the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. " - RunRig

Libertarians maintain that there is no such thing as a monopoly in a free market, and hence no regulation preventing monopolies is needed.

RyggTard needs to tell us if in his paradise, people would be permitted by society to torture their pets (property) to death.
VendicarE
4.3 / 5 (16) Jul 09, 2013
"It not my definition." - RyggTard

You just indicated that it was.

Make up your mind TardieBoy.

"An anti-socialist govt uses that force to protect the people and property under its dominion." - RyggTard

So your claim that you would prefer the U.S. engage in greater military action in Afghanistan makes you a socialist by your own definition.
antigoracle
1.3 / 5 (26) Jul 10, 2013

Rant all you want about Mr Gore. He was only the messenger - and you know what they say about shooting the messenger?

Try False Prophet, and you know what they say about them.
No wonder the blind ignorant AGW Alarmist worships him.
VendicarE
4.3 / 5 (16) Jul 10, 2013
"Try False Prophet" - Anti-Gore-Tard

If by false you mean right on the money, then you are correct.

But since you are never correct, I must presume you don't mean that.
antigoracle
1.2 / 5 (23) Jul 10, 2013
"Try False Prophet" - Anti-Gore-Tard

If by false you mean right on the money, then you are correct.

But since you are never correct, I must presume you don't mean that.

As I said, the blind, ignorant AGW Alarmist turds, worship their False Prophet Gore
http://scienceand...ors.html
http://newsbuster...nt-truth
runrig
4.4 / 5 (14) Jul 10, 2013
"Try False Prophet" - Anti-Gore-Tard

If by false you mean right on the money, then you are correct.

But since you are never correct, I must presume you don't mean that.

As I said, the blind, ignorant AGW Alarmist turds, worship their False Prophet Gore
http://scienceand...ors.html


Anti:
You really are having a Larf, arn't you?

By ..."Christopher Monckton of Brenchley" ........ well must by right then, cos the "Lord" says so.

You really must watch who you quote .... might just lose you credibility.
http://www.youtub...qRCVc7Q8

Just one of many vids highlighting his "inaccuracies". But short and from the "Lords" mouth. He's not one BTW.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (25) Jul 10, 2013
" Enron owned and operated a network of natural gas pipelines and had become a leading commodity trader buying and selling contracts and their derivatives to deliver natural gas and electricity.

Because the 1990 Clean Air Act amendments placed caps on how much pollution a fossil fuel plant could emit, Enron helped create a market for EPA's sulphur dioxide cap-and-trade program, the forerunner of today's carbon offset scam.

As Enron's stock shot up, the company next turned to creating a cap-and-trade program for carbon dioxide. The only problem was that carbon dioxide is not a pollutant (despite what the senile members of the Supreme Court may think). As a result, EPA had no authority to cap CO2 emissions."
"Vice President Al Gore set out to create an international regulatory system that would manage carbon dioxide"
"The anthropogenic warming could well be less than thought and favorably distributed."

A primary consultant for that study was NASA scientist James Hansen,"
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (25) Jul 10, 2013
"As the push for a treaty gained more support around the world, Enron CEO Ken Lay and other business leaders wrote to President Bill Clinton on September 1, 1998, asking him to create a bipartisan blue ribbon commission that would essentially shut off the scientific debate on global warming and discredit those scientists who opposed the treaty and did not support the global warming theory.

Simultaneously, Enron commissioned an internal study of global warming science, only to find the results did not support the theory. In conclusion, the report noted, "The very real possibility is that the great climate alarm could be a false alarm. The anthropogenic warming could well be less than thought and favorably distributed."

A primary consultant for that study was NASA scientist James Hansen, "
http://theforgott...oto.html
antigoracle
1.3 / 5 (24) Jul 10, 2013
"Try False Prophet" - Anti-Gore-Tard

If by false you mean right on the money, then you are correct.

But since you are never correct, I must presume you don't mean that.

You got it.
Your False Prophet Gore, got it RIGHT ON THE MONEY. Millions by last count.
VendicarE
4.1 / 5 (15) Jul 10, 2013
"As I said, the blind, ignorant AGW Alarmist turds," - Anti-Gore-Tard

It is sad to see brain cancer go untreated.

Christopher Moncton - The Anti-Gore-Tard's favorite author - also tried for years to sell his tonic water that would cure aids and cancer.

He was a failure at that as well.

http://www.youtub...1LpiYk2o
VendicarE
4.1 / 5 (14) Jul 10, 2013
FreeTarrrrrrrrrrrrrdo... Your choice of Christopher Moncton who claims to be a British Lord and isn't one, claims to be a member of the British House of Lords, but isn't, and puts the emblem of the British House of Lords on his slides after the House of Lords ordered him to stop, is not the kind of person I would be using as a reference if I were you.

But then your brain cancer tells you otherwise.

Have you tried Moncton's cure for aids yet?

Bahahahahahahahahah...... Conservative Morons.
VendicarE
3.9 / 5 (12) Jul 10, 2013
"Your False Prophet Gore, got it RIGHT ON THE MONEY. Millions by last count." - Anti-Gore-Tard

Odd thing is, Gore's science reporting is impeccable,.

I commend Gore on his honesty, Integrity, technical and business savvy.

Gore is a spectacular success at everything he puts his hands to.

You on the other hand, my little TardieBoy, are nothing but failure..

Jealous?
VendicarE
4.1 / 5 (13) Jul 10, 2013
"Enron CEO Ken Lay and other business leaders wrote to President Bill Clinton on September 1, 1998, asking him to create a bipartisan blue ribbon commission that would essentially shut off the scientific debate on global warming and discredit those scientists who opposed the treaty and did not support the global warming theory." - RyggTard

Enron and George Bush's good buddy Lay continue to be hero's to Libertarians like RyggTard.

On July 7, 2004, Lay was indicted by a grand jury on 11 counts of securities fraud and related charges

They just can't get enough Fraud and Corruption into the Libertarian party.
deepsand
2.7 / 5 (23) Jul 10, 2013
"Try False Prophet" - Anti-Gore-Tard

If by false you mean right on the money, then you are correct.

But since you are never correct, I must presume you don't mean that.

As I said, the blind, ignorant AGW Alarmist turds, worship their False Prophet Gore
http://scienceand...ors.html

You know that you might be better sighted if you weren't constantly playing with fecal matter and wiping your face with it.
antigoracle
1.2 / 5 (21) Jul 10, 2013
"Try False Prophet" - Anti-Gore-Tard

If by false you mean right on the money, then you are correct.

But since you are never correct, I must presume you don't mean that.

As I said, the blind, ignorant AGW Alarmist turds, worship their False Prophet Gore
http://scienceand...ors.html

You know that you might be better sighted if you weren't constantly playing with fecal matter and wiping your face with it.

Oh, now you don't want me to play with YOU anymore.
VendicarE
4 / 5 (13) Jul 10, 2013
"now you don't want me to play with YOU anymore." - Anti-Gore-Tard

Yes. You are far more practiced with playing with yourself.

Your mommie is sad for you.
lengould100
4.7 / 5 (13) Jul 12, 2013
Socialism needs to threaten, coerce and use deadly force as central planning disregards human nature.
I love how the advocate of the most extreme capitalistic philosophies promote them by trying to get people to fear an equally extreme socialistic dictatorial philosophy. Moderation in all, people. Many countries full of happy citizens (arguably happier than the average US citizen, according to several studies), strike just such a middle ground.
JohnGee
3.6 / 5 (20) Jul 12, 2013
I love how the advocate of the most extreme capitalistic philosophies promote them by trying to get people to fear an equally extreme socialistic dictatorial philosophy.
This is why he has to falsely label everyone as a socialist. His worldview falls apart if he can't make himself seem reasonable to himself, which explains why he spends so much time calling total strangers socialists when very few if any of them actually are.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (24) Jul 12, 2013
"it's significant that more than half of billionaire Swedes live abroad. And Sweden's social peace has been safeguarded by certain circumstances that are unique to the Scandinavian countries. They spent little money on either divesting themselves of an empire or fighting the Soviet Union. They avoided some of the worst excesses of European integration. They also came late to mass migration. Today we are starting to see the emergence of social tensions with relation to immigration that are all too familiar in Britain, France or Germany. "
http://blogs.tele...n-earth/
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (24) Jul 12, 2013
"Put crudely, yes Scandinavia probably does ferry a child safely from cradle to grave with the result that levels of poverty and crime are conceivably lower. But where is the Swedish Facebook? How many Danes have walked on the moon? Does Norway have a Commonwealth? How's that Finnish movie industry doing? None of these countries are serious world powers and none of them are defined by the rags-to-riches meritocratic idealism that America aspires to. That's why there is no Finnish dream."
http://blogs.tele...n-earth/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (23) Jul 12, 2013
I wonder how many who admire Norway would want to follow their example of making your income an on-line public record?
VendicarE
4.4 / 5 (15) Jul 12, 2013
"Moderation in all, people." - Lengould

Of course. It is only rational.

Extremists like RyggTard and Free Tard ar so extreme in their Right Wing Ideologies that they demand Americans become Corporate slaves in order to be free from Gubdermnet.

Morons.
VendicarE
4.4 / 5 (15) Jul 12, 2013
"I wonder how many who admire Norway would want to follow their example of making your income an on-line public record?" - RyggTard

Why? Are you ashamed of your income RyggTard?

Corporations are the beneficiaries when wages are kept secret for it allows them to cheat some workers who could otherwise negotiate higher wages if they knew what their co-workers were making.

lengould100
5 / 5 (12) Jul 13, 2013
But where is the Swedish Facebook?
How about this list? http://en.wikiped...ompanies

Did you know that Maersk (transportation) is the 152nd largest company in the world, and is located in Denmark, a nation of 8 million? Ericsson of Sweden (239th)? Nokia of Finland (573rd)? Atlas Copco of Sweden (528th)?

Every modern lumber mill in the world is full of Swedish machinery. The most valued prizes worldwide in science are awarded by the Norwegians.

Ah, go back and play narcissist on your moronic facebook, dummy.

It's pointless to try to argue with the likes of rygge, he just doesn't hear.
Neinsense99
3.2 / 5 (22) Jul 13, 2013
"I wonder how many who admire Norway would want to follow their example of making your income an on-line public record?" - RyggTard

Why? Are you ashamed of your income RyggTard?

Corporations are the beneficiaries when wages are kept secret for it allows them to cheat some workers who could otherwise negotiate higher wages if they knew what their co-workers were making.


He could be getting 'socialist' welfare, just like Ayn Rand did.
lengould100
4.6 / 5 (11) Jul 13, 2013
lengould100
5 / 5 (10) Jul 13, 2013
(figure from 2010 or 2012) - Exxon-Mobil, largest oil company in the world, made $45 billion in profits, paid $0 in US income taxes, got $120 million in US government "payments" / subsidies, and made $282,400 in direct political contributions, and ExxonMobil's employee- and retiree-shareholder funded political action committee (PAC) disbursed $1,064,000 to federal candidates in 2012. Based on the 2011–2012 election cycle contributions, CQ Moneyline listed the ExxonMobil PAC No. 86 in size compared with other PACs.

In 2008, US citizens had $2.5 trillion in pension savings. In that year, they lost $1 trillion of that, many loosing their entire savings.
lengould100
5 / 5 (11) Jul 13, 2013
Wall street bankers are the most enthusiastic socialists in the world, given their actions through the 2008 event.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (20) Jul 13, 2013
Wall street bankers are the most enthusiastic socialists in the world, given their actions through the 2008 event.

And why shouldn't they be?
The US govt controls the money with the Federal Reserve.
runrig
4.7 / 5 (13) Jul 13, 2013
"..."Put crudely, yes Scandinavia probably does ferry a child safely from cradle to grave with the result that levels of poverty and crime are conceivably lower. But where is the Swedish Facebook? How many Danes have walked on the moon? Does Norway have a Commonwealth? How's that Finnish movie industry doing? None of these countries are serious world powers........"


Err......

Population of:
Sweden: 9.5m (2011)
Norway: 4.9m (2011)
Finland 5.4m (2011)
Denmark: 5.6m (2011)

USA: 313.9 (2012)

Crazy twisted logic.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (24) Jul 13, 2013
Crazy twisted logic.

Not really. If one is going to compare the economy and 'happiness' of a nation-state like Sweden, Denmark or Finland with the USA, then the comparison is not twisted.
If one compares the economy and 'happiness' of Sweden, Denmark, Finland with similar sized states like Minnesota and Wisconsin (with significant Scandinavian immigrants), that is not twisted.
runrig
4.7 / 5 (14) Jul 13, 2013
Crazy twisted logic.

Not really. If one is going to compare the economy and 'happiness' of a nation-state like Sweden, Denmark or Finland with the USA, then the comparison is not twisted.
If one compares the economy and 'happiness' of Sweden, Denmark, Finland with similar sized states like Minnesota and Wisconsin (with significant Scandinavian immigrants), that is not twisted.


I was alluding to the "power" and "achievement" of a nation relative to it's population that you quoted here
..." None of these countries are serious world powers ...."


- how could you expect them to "have a commonwealth", "walk on the moon" and be a serious world power with minuscule populations?
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (23) Jul 13, 2013
how could you expect them to "have a commonwealth", "walk on the moon" and be a serious world power with minuscule populations?


Then it is misleading to proclaim how 'happy' Danes or Finns are to justify socialist polices elsewhere.
lengould100
4.7 / 5 (14) Jul 13, 2013
LOL. Ryggesogn2 thinks people can ONLY be happy if they're controlling an empire or like that. That's a big part of the problem I have with you Yanks. Power and money are the only things in their lives. No such thing as enough.
lengould100
5 / 5 (12) Jul 13, 2013
1/3 of working jobs in USA pay less than $15,000 / yr. 20 million unemployed. Watch "Heist: Who stole the American Dream". Completely bi-partisan politically.

http://www.imdb.c...1966464/
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (23) Jul 13, 2013
Completely bi-partisan politically.

How? It is socialists who have destroyed the USA.

What is the motivation for the 'happiness' surveys? 'Progressives' seem to be very happy high tax Scandinavian countries, with ~5 million homogenous people each and no responsibility in the world.
How happy will these countries be when their Muslim minorities begin imposing Sharia and rioting? Oh, they already have started rioting.
lengould100
4.3 / 5 (16) Jul 13, 2013
It is socialists who have destroyed the USA.
Didn't all you reagan worshipers tell us in 1990 that "He hath defeated the socislists!" ? What that obviously means is that it has been the anti-socialists (your hero capitalists) who therefore have been in charge since, through the dot.com bubble bust, the 911 attacks, the stupid invasion of Iraq, the crash of 2008. All those great things are entirely due to capitalists, because your god Reagan defeated the socialists.
runrig
4.7 / 5 (13) Jul 13, 2013
how could you expect them to "have a commonwealth", "walk on the moon" and be a serious world power with minuscule populations?


Then it is misleading to proclaim how 'happy' Danes or Finns are to justify socialist polices elsewhere.


Bizarre, really is - your world view that is. Is this "Tea party " speak or an an extreme even above that?

Edit: Science seen through the all corrupting prism of politics - which is, of course, not science.

ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (24) Jul 13, 2013
Where is the objective scientific motivation behind a survey of subjective 'happiness'?
Neinsense99
3.4 / 5 (22) Jul 14, 2013
Tired of the crap posted by trolls and just wan the science articles? Sign up or sign in and change your account settings to hide the comments by default. Don't give the crackpots, instant experts and propaganda shills the audience they crave.
VendicarE
4 / 5 (16) Jul 15, 2013
http://cdn.mix4fu...d836.gif

Republicans like RyggTard need to stop birthing these children.

antigoracle
1.2 / 5 (24) Jul 15, 2013
Tired of the crap posted by trolls and just wan the science articles? Sign up or sign in and change your account settings to hide the comments by default. Don't give the crackpots, instant experts and propaganda shills the audience they crave.

Ha..ha..thanks for my daily dose of AGW Alarmists stupid, I really needed that (#sarcasm).
Neinsense99
3.1 / 5 (21) Jul 22, 2013
Tired of the crap posted by trolls and just wan the science articles? Sign up or sign in and change your account settings to hide the comments by default. Don't give the crackpots, instant experts and propaganda shills the audience they crave.

Ha..ha..thanks for my daily dose of AGW Alarmists stupid, I really needed that (#sarcasm).

Keep on arguing with the Al Gore in your shorts. I'm sure that, to you, it sounds like a symphony.
Neinsense99
3.1 / 5 (21) Jul 22, 2013
To borrow a line from Christopher Hitchens, I am not buying a pencil from your cup.
deepsand
2.7 / 5 (21) Jul 23, 2013
Where is the objective scientific motivation behind a survey of subjective 'happiness'?

Where is the objective scientific basis for your many subjective claims re. the virtues of unregulated capitalism?
deepsand
2.7 / 5 (21) Jul 23, 2013
Wall street bankers are the most enthusiastic socialists in the world, given their actions through the 2008 event.

And why shouldn't they be?
The US govt controls the money with the Federal Reserve.

That's odd, considering that so many libertarians lament that the Fed is lacking for governmental control. Looks like your side either can't make up its mind, or changes it as the situation of the moment demands if your arguments are to appear plausible.
deepsand
2.7 / 5 (21) Jul 23, 2013
Tired of the crap posted by trolls and just wan the science articles? Sign up or sign in and change your account settings to hide the comments by default. Don't give the crackpots, instant experts and propaganda shills the audience they crave.

thanks for my daily dose of ... stupid, I really needed that.

Does that mean that your stupidity is self-induced?
Neinsense99
2.9 / 5 (19) Jul 23, 2013
Wall street bankers are the most enthusiastic socialists in the world, given their actions through the 2008 event.

And why shouldn't they be?
The US govt controls the money with the Federal Reserve.

That's odd, considering that so many libertarians lament that the Fed is lacking for governmental control. Looks like your side either can't make up its mind, or changes it as the situation of the moment demands if your arguments are to appear plausible.

Another study found that the same conspiracy theorists were more likely to agree that Osama bin Laden was both already dead and still alive.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (18) Jul 23, 2013
Fed is lacking for governmental control.

The Fed has the power of the state with little checks on its power by the people.
Unchecked power is the hallmark of socialism.
Howhot
4.5 / 5 (8) Jul 24, 2013
R2; your rhetoric is getting lame;
The Fed has the power of the state with little checks on its power by the people.
Unchecked power is the hallmark of socialism.


Really? why single out socialism? Why not fascism, communism, totalitarianism, theism, ot what is happening today; capitalism? Unchecked power seems to be the hallmark of capitalism, where money will buy you anything; (that is if it is left unchecked and not held responsible for it's damage to the global condition). Unchecked power seems to be a trademark of theism; when religions dominate over the concerns of women, or domestic culture.

Hell, socialism should be the least of your concerns.

Neinsense99
2.5 / 5 (16) Jul 24, 2013
R2; your rhetoric is getting lame;
The Fed has the power of the state with little checks on its power by the people.
Unchecked power is the hallmark of socialism.


Really? why single out socialism? Why not fascism, communism, totalitarianism, theism, ot what is happening today; capitalism? Unchecked power seems to be the hallmark of capitalism, where money will buy you anything; (that is if it is left unchecked and not held responsible for it's damage to the global condition). Unchecked power seems to be a trademark of theism; when religions dominate over the concerns of women, or domestic culture.

Hell, socialism should be the least of your concerns.


"Hell, socialism should be the least of your concerns." It's a convenient way to pretend the other problems don't exist, and rationalize one's role in perpetuating those other problems.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (18) Jul 24, 2013
why single out socialism? Why not fascism, communism, totalitarianism,

These are all socialism.
There is very little capitalism in the world today so that cannot be the problem.

What is the check on the NSA, the IRS, BHO,...?
deepsand
2.3 / 5 (18) Jul 25, 2013
Fed is lacking for governmental control.

The Fed has the power of the state with little checks on its power by the people.

Evades the totality of my statement, which was "That's odd, considering that so many libertarians lament that the Fed is lacking for governmental control. Looks like your side either can't make up its mind, or changes it as the situation of the moment demands if your arguments are to appear plausible."

Unchecked power is the hallmark of socialism.

Rhetorical tripe.
deepsand
2.3 / 5 (18) Jul 25, 2013
why single out socialism? Why not fascism, communism, totalitarianism,

These are all socialism.
There is very little capitalism in the world today so that cannot be the problem.

What is the check on the NSA, the IRS, BHO,...?

ASSUMING that that is true, does that not then suggest that capitalism may the inferior of other systems?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (17) Jul 25, 2013
The 'power' of capitalism is checked by the consumer and competition.
A capitalism must PERSUADE customers to buy their products so they must make products consumers are willing to buy at a price they are willing to pay, or someone else will.

Socialists don't need to persuade. They have the power of the gun, jails, laws, to FORCE their subjects to do what the socialist wants them to do.

The only real check on socialist power is natural law. Eventually the socialist parasite runs out of other people's plundered wealth.
deepsand
2.3 / 5 (18) Jul 26, 2013
The 'power' of capitalism is checked by the consumer and competition.
A capitalism must PERSUADE customers to buy their products so they must make products consumers are willing to buy at a price they are willing to pay, or someone else will.

Does the man who controls the headwaters of the stream that provides a town with its only source of potable water need to persuade the townspeople to purchase his product?

And you wonder why the peasants rise up and storm the castle. :rolleyes:
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (18) Jul 26, 2013
The 'power' of capitalism is checked by the consumer and competition.
A capitalism must PERSUADE customers to buy their products so they must make products consumers are willing to buy at a price they are willing to pay, or someone else will.

Does the man who controls the headwaters of the stream that provides a town with its only source of potable water need to persuade the townspeople to purchase his product?

And you wonder why the peasants rise up and storm the castle. :rolleyes:

Who owns an entire stream? No one.
Anyone who owns riparian property has right to the water. This is called property rights.
Playing you little game, how does anyone upstream control the water? He must spend money and build a dam. Then, what will he do with the water? Drink it all? If the price is too high people will drill their own wells, truck in water, etc.
Townsfolk can also refuse to sell food to the headwater owner.
ryggesogn2
1.1 / 5 (17) Jul 26, 2013
The headwater example has occurred, only the owner is the US Govt. In order to save a fish, water that farmers were promised for irrigation was released to keep a fish alive.
The govt is a force, is a monopoly.
JohnGee
3 / 5 (14) Jul 26, 2013
Yes, the government does have a monopoly on violence. That is the definition of government, the central authority with a monopoly on violence. Congrats, you passed Political Science 101.
Neinsense99
2.5 / 5 (16) Jul 26, 2013
A Republican Secretary of State Urges Action on Climate Change
http://www.scient...d-energy
deepsand
2.3 / 5 (18) Jul 27, 2013
The 'power' of capitalism is checked by the consumer and competition.
A capitalism must PERSUADE customers to buy their products so they must make products consumers are willing to buy at a price they are willing to pay, or someone else will.

Does the man who controls the headwaters of the stream that provides a town with its only source of potable water need to persuade the townspeople to purchase his product?

And you wonder why the peasants rise up and storm the castle. :rolleyes:

Who owns an entire stream? No one.
Anyone who owns riparian property has right to the water. This is called property rights.
Playing you little game, how does anyone upstream control the water? He must spend money and build a dam. Then, what will he do with the water? Drink it all? If the price is too high people will drill their own wells, truck in water, etc.

None of which prevents one from sequestering such water,
deepsand
2.4 / 5 (19) Jul 27, 2013
Townsfolk can also refuse to sell food to the headwater owner.

Immaterial to his ability to effect a natural monopoly.

And, if he's the resources for so doing, he no doubt is also capable of producing or otherwise acquiring his food.

You are very poor at producing adequate substantive rebuttal.
deepsand
2.4 / 5 (19) Jul 27, 2013
The headwater example has occurred, only the owner is the US Govt.

Your implied claim that such has never involved the owner of private property is pure unadulterated BS.

You are an intellectual fraud.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (18) Jul 27, 2013
Where is an example of a natural monopoly? A real one? One you can identify now? If a natural monopoly is so easy for someone to obtain, then they should be easy to point out.
Neinsense99
2.6 / 5 (17) Jul 27, 2013
"now you don't want me to play with YOU anymore." - Anti-Gore-Tard

Yes. You are far more practiced with playing with yourself.

Your mommie is sad for you.

It's more circumstantial evidence for frequent, sometimes catastrophic 'pole shifting'.
deepsand
2.6 / 5 (17) Jul 28, 2013
Where is an example of a natural monopoly? A real one? One you can identify now? If a natural monopoly is so easy for someone to obtain, then they should be easy to point out.

Asked and answered.

Your reading comprehension is rapidly deteriorating.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (18) Jul 28, 2013
Humor me.
Where is the real natural monopoly? I missed your post.
deepsand
2.6 / 5 (17) Jul 29, 2013
Humor me.
Where is the real natural monopoly? I missed your post.

That's not the only thing that you missed.

Time for you to do your own heavy lifting.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (17) Jul 29, 2013
Humor me.
Where is the real natural monopoly? I missed your post.

That's not the only thing that you missed.

Time for you to do your own heavy lifting.

I have and have been waiting.....
deepsand
2.5 / 5 (16) Jul 30, 2013
Humor me.
Where is the real natural monopoly? I missed your post.

That's not the only thing that you missed.

Time for you to do your own heavy lifting.

I have and have been waiting.....

Lifting your fingers to post sophistic drivel doesn't count as heavy lifting.
Neinsense99
1.4 / 5 (11) Aug 02, 2013
Study: Internet trolls are drunk with power
http://www.techsp...wer.html

The 'illustrated anatomy' is fun. The 'ha ha that's you' retorts will follow, but serve only to prove the point.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Aug 02, 2013
Sandy asserts natural monolpolies are so prevalent and dangerous govts must take over and assume the role of the monopolist.
But he has yet to point out any example of such a dangerous natural monopoly.