Cost of Arctic methane release could be 'size of global economy' warn experts

Jul 24, 2013

Researchers have warned of an "economic time-bomb" in the Arctic, following a ground-breaking analysis of the likely cost of methane emissions in the region.

Writing in a Comment piece in the journal, Nature, academics argue that a significant release of methane from thawing permafrost in the Arctic could have dire implications for the world's economy. The researchers, from Cambridge and Rotterdam, have for the first time calculated the potential economic impact of a scenario some scientists consider increasingly likely – that methane from the East Siberian Sea will be emitted as a result of the thaw.

This constitutes just a fraction of the vast reservoirs of methane in the Arctic, but scientists believe that the release of even a small proportion of these reserves could trigger possibly catastrophic climate change. According to the new assessment, the emission of methane below the East Siberian Sea alone would also have a mean global impact of 60 trillion dollars.

The ground-breaking Comment piece was co-authored by Gail Whiteman, from Erasmus University; Chris Hope, Reader in Policy Modelling at Cambridge Judge Business School, University of Cambridge; and Peter Wadhams, Professor of Ocean physics at the University of Cambridge.

"The global impact of a warming Arctic is an economic time-bomb", Whiteman, who is Professor of sustainability, management and climate change at Rotterdam School of Management, Erasmus University (RSM), said.

Wadhams added: "The imminent disappearance of the summer sea ice in the Arctic will have enormous implications for both the acceleration of climate change, and the release of methane from off-shore waters which are now able to warm up in the summer. This massive methane boost will have major implications for global economies and societies."

Most discussion about the economic implications of a warming Arctic focuses on benefits to the region, with increased oil-and-gas drilling and the opening up of new shipping routes that could attract investments of hundreds of billions of dollars. However, the effects of melting permafrost on the climate and oceans will be felt globally, the authors argue.

Applying an updated version of the modelling method used in the UK government's 2006 Stern Review on the Economics of Climate Change, and currently used by the US Environmental Protection Agency, the authors calculate the global consequences of the release of 50 gigatonnes of methane over a decade from thawing permafrost beneath the East Siberian Sea.

"The methane release would bring forward the date at which the global mean temperature rise exceeds 2 degrees C by between 15 and 35 years," said Chris Hope. "In the absence of mitigation measures, the PAGE09 model calculates that it would increase mean global climate impacts by $60 trillion."

If other impacts such as ocean acidification are factored in, the cost would be much higher. Some 80% of these costs will be borne by developing countries, as they experience more extreme weather, flooding, droughts and poorer health, as Arctic warming affects climate.

The research also explored the impact of a number of later, longer-lasting or smaller pulses of , and the authors write that, in all these cases, the economic cost for physical changes to the Arctic is "steep".

The authors write that global economic institutions and world leaders should "kick-start investment in rigorous economic modelling" and consider the impacts of a changing Arctic landscape as far outweighing any "short-term gains from shipping and extraction".

They argue that economic discussions today are missing the big picture on Arctic change. "Arctic science is a strategic asset for human economies because the region drives critical effects in our biophysical, political and economic systems," write the academics. Neither the World Economic Forum nor the International Monetary Fund currently recognise the economic danger of Arctic change.

According to Whiteman, "Global leaders and the WEF and IMF need to pay much more attention to this invisible time-bomb. The mean impacts of just this one effect—$60 trillion—approaches the $70-trillion value of the world economy in 2012."

Explore further: Arctic exploration provides window on future climate change

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Osiris1
1.6 / 5 (23) Jul 24, 2013
So Russia can develope agriculture here and grow wheat in the Lena River valley right up to the northern coast of Russia...and maybe grow tomatoes in the Chuk-chi Peninsula in north Yakutia. How about palm trees in Vladivostok? Surfing off Murmansk in the cool White Sea anyone? or a summer vacation on Svalbaard?
VendicarE
3.9 / 5 (21) Jul 24, 2013
"..right up to the northern coast of Russia.." - OsiriTard

Where do you plan on getting the soil? From your diaper?

There is essentially no soil in Northern Russia for the same reason that there is essentially no soil in northern Canada.

Think real hard, and you might be able to figure out why.

Don't soil yourself trying.
Billybaroo
1.5 / 5 (24) Jul 24, 2013
Methinks not!
Nature puts methane hydrate fears to rest – says it will be 1,000 years before they make any impact:
http://www.nature...24314790
DruidDrudge
1.8 / 5 (27) Jul 24, 2013
"..right up to the northern coast of Russia.." - OsiriTard

Where do you plan on getting the soil? From your diaper?

There is essentially no soil in Northern Russia for the same reason that there is essentially no soil in northern Canada.

Think real hard, and you might be able to figure out why.

Don't soil yourself trying.

this certainly is news to us in northern canada, and to my friends in northern russia.
perhaps if you got out of your moms basement now and then
VendicarE
3.7 / 5 (16) Jul 24, 2013
"this certainly is news to us in northern canada" - DruidTard

Here is some of the great farm land in Northern Canada, that is mirrored in Northern Russia.

http://www.thecan...7461.jpg

DruidTard just can't manage to figure out why.

DruidDrudge
1.5 / 5 (25) Jul 24, 2013
http://www.fao.or...2021.jpg
http://www.fao.or...2023.jpg
but you must be right, what do I know, I only live here.
you could google arctic tundra and view the pics for yourself... but that would burst your bubble of ignorance
VendicarE
4 / 5 (16) Jul 24, 2013
Both images provided by DruidTard...

http://www.fao.or...2021.jpg

Show shallow soils only a couple of inches thick that cover bedrock below. This is quite clear in the first picture where the subsurface is clearly fragmented and angular.

Wheat and corn can't even be planted in soils that thin.

But he will probably to deny reality. His self delusion makes him feel happy and safe.

http://en.wikiped...n_Shield

Educate yourself. Moron.

ormondotvos
3.1 / 5 (19) Jul 24, 2013
If you're wondering whether the CO2 producing countries will act on this:

"Some 80% of these costs will be borne by developing countries, as they experience more extreme weather, flooding, droughts and poorer health, as Arctic warming affects climate."

No, they won't act. Poor people will be the receivers of the pain.

VendicarE
3.4 / 5 (17) Jul 24, 2013
"Poor people will be the receivers of the pain." - Ormond

Then I grant them the right to inflict pain on the first world nations who are responsible. Primarily the United States, otherwise known as the Great Satan.

VENDItardE
1.7 / 5 (28) Jul 24, 2013
"Poor people will be the receivers of the pain." - Ormond

Then I grant them the right to inflict pain on the first world nations who are responsible. Primarily the United States, otherwise known as the Great Satan.


i would most certainly enjoy beating, i mean meeting, the hell out of you. bet you don't run your mouth this way in public you sniveling little POS.
VendicarE
3.7 / 5 (15) Jul 24, 2013
"i would most certainly enjoy beating, i mean meeting, the hell out of you" - VendiTardE

What is your address. I'll come right over, coward.
VendicarE
3.7 / 5 (16) Jul 24, 2013
VendiTardE believes that his worthless nation should be permitted to inflict pain on others for the continuation of their own pleasure.

He just can't stand the idea that others should be permitted to do the same to him.

Equity is the mother of all morality.

Inequity is the principle underlying America.
Neinsense99
2.8 / 5 (26) Jul 24, 2013
Venditarde, if you are so keen to seem tough, I'd like to introduce you to my knowledge of applied anatomy and physics, involving levers, ranges of motion, center of gravity, sudden impacts, etc. Didn't think so.
Neinsense99
3.1 / 5 (27) Jul 24, 2013
Both images provided by DruidTard...

http://www.fao.or...2021.jpg

Educate yourself. Moron.


I've lived in the shield and northern boreal forest. There are areas where soils are much better than others, but they are often remote, and much of it is a thin layer over bedrock as you described. I could see a somewhat longer growing season in say, the Peace River district, but it would not negate all the effects of wild weather.
antigoracle
1.8 / 5 (29) Jul 25, 2013
As the AGW Alarmists tower of lies crumble their increasing desperation is reflected in even more preposterous concoctions like this article.
The MWP was much warmer and the world prospered.
axemaster
3.8 / 5 (16) Jul 25, 2013
I'm saving this thread for later. Whenever I'm feeling down, I'll just open it up and experience the lulz all over again.

Venditarde, if you are so keen to seem tough, I'd like to introduce you to my knowledge of applied anatomy and physics, involving levers, ranges of motion, center of gravity, sudden impacts, etc. Didn't think so.


Come on VendicarE, are you gonna let VENDItardE talk that s***?! It's time to dish out some PAIN BABY!

Also, how great would it be if VENDItardE was typing that, then heard a tapping on his window and VendicarE was staring in at him? Come on kids, let's all start a narrative!
Oversoul 1
1.6 / 5 (21) Jul 25, 2013
I dunno but vacuum-mechanics will solve this (also)...
And v-m can solve The VendicarE and VENDItardE problem (also)...
deepsand
2.7 / 5 (26) Jul 25, 2013
"Poor people will be the receivers of the pain." - Ormond

Then I grant them the right to inflict pain on the first world nations who are responsible. Primarily the United States, otherwise known as the Great Satan.

i would most certainly enjoy beating, i mean meeting, the hell out of you. bet you don't run your mouth this way in public you sniveling little POS.

You lack the humour to be entertaining, the knowledge to be informative, and have all the charm and attraction of a deceased rat which suffered from leprosy and incontinence.
deepsand
3 / 5 (28) Jul 25, 2013
As the AGW Alarmists tower of lies crumble their increasing desperation is reflected in even more preposterous concoctions like this article.
The MWP was much warmer and the world prospered.

Still as clueless as ever.

You are like an insane woodpecker looking for a grub in a block of concrete.
Humpty
1.2 / 5 (23) Jul 25, 2013
A few hundred billion trillion tons of methane into the atmosphere... + huge spark = Earth becomes fire ball......
Neinsense99
2.8 / 5 (22) Jul 25, 2013
I'm saving this thread for later. Whenever I'm feeling down, I'll just open it up and experience the lulz all over again.

Venditarde, if you are so keen to seem tough, I'd like to introduce you to my knowledge of applied anatomy and physics, involving levers, ranges of motion, center of gravity, sudden impacts, etc. Didn't think so.


Come on VendicarE, are you gonna let VENDItardE talk that s***?! It's time to dish out some PAIN BABY!

Also, how great would it be if VENDItardE was typing that, then heard a tapping on his window and VendicarE was staring in at him? Come on kids, let's all start a narrative!

I think you confused the origin of the quote of a quote. Easy to do.
Neinsense99
2.8 / 5 (24) Jul 25, 2013
Time lapse photos showing the new lake at the north pole: http://www.cbc.ca...g-3.html
antigoracle
1.4 / 5 (29) Jul 25, 2013
Time lapse photos showing the new lake at the north pole: http://www.cbc.ca...g-3.html

News Flash:
Lake forms at North Pole when sky is overcast, totally obscuring the sun and raindrops can be seen covering camera.
AGW Alarmist Chickens cry North Pole is melting because of CO2.
More at 10:00, when the chickens will see the sky falling.
The gullibility of the cult defies belief. When will they grow a brain and see the CO2 lie for what it is.
Neinsense99
3.1 / 5 (25) Jul 26, 2013
Time lapse photos showing the new lake at the north pole: http://www.cbc.ca...g-3.html

News Flash:
Lake forms at North Pole when sky is overcast, totally obscuring the sun and raindrops can be seen covering camera.
AGW Alarmist Chickens cry North Pole is melting because of CO2.
More at 10:00, when the chickens will see the sky falling.
The gullibility of the cult defies belief. When will they grow a brain and see the CO2 lie for what it is.

Much more foaming and you could have a built-in fire extinguisher. Something possibly constructive, at last? Don't let them take you away to where the trees and flowers and chirping birds might interfere with the 'project'.
Neinsense99
2.9 / 5 (25) Jul 26, 2013
Time lapse photos showing the new lake at the north pole: http://www.cbc.ca...g-3.html

News Flash:
Lake forms at North Pole when sky is overcast, totally obscuring the sun and raindrops can be seen covering camera.
AGW Alarmist Chickens cry North Pole is melting because of CO2.
More at 10:00, when the chickens will see the sky falling.
The gullibility of the cult defies belief. When will they grow a brain and see the CO2 lie for what it is.

How does he know what he knows? How does he know 'AGW Alarmist Chickens' are part of a cult? Never once has he shown evidence, so his belief that others are acting blindly on faith appears to be itself convenient faith-based reasoning.
antigoracle
1.3 / 5 (27) Jul 26, 2013
Time lapse photos showing the new lake at the north pole: http://www.cbc.ca...g-3.html

News Flash:
Lake forms at North Pole when sky is overcast, totally obscuring the sun and raindrops can be seen covering camera.
AGW Alarmist Chickens cry North Pole is melting because of CO2.
More at 10:00, when the chickens will see the sky falling.
The gullibility of the cult defies belief. When will they grow a brain and see the CO2 lie for what it is.

How does he know what he knows? How does he know 'AGW Alarmist Chickens' are part of a cult? Never once has he shown evidence, so his belief that others are acting blindly on faith appears to be itself convenient faith-based reasoning.

Tell me chicken, did that lake form from melting snow?
antigoracle
1.3 / 5 (27) Jul 26, 2013
Time lapse photos showing the new lake at the north pole: http://www.cbc.ca...g-3.html

http://www.navalh...rth-pole
Please educate yourself chickens.
full_disclosure
1.2 / 5 (24) Jul 26, 2013
"i would most certainly enjoy beating, i mean meeting, the hell out of you" - VendiTardE

What is your address. I'll come right over, coward.

Idiot
antigoracle
1.3 / 5 (27) Jul 26, 2013

How does he know what he knows? How does he know 'AGW Alarmist Chickens' are part of a cult? ....

Elementary my dear chicken, there is something called a brain, grow one and then try to use it.
Neinsense99
3 / 5 (24) Jul 26, 2013

How does he know what he knows? How does he know 'AGW Alarmist Chickens' are part of a cult? ....

Elementary my dear chicken, there is something called a brain, grow one and then try to use it.

Predictable misquote, failure to address question, audition for Dunning-Kruger Effect Demonstrator of the Year.
Neinsense99
2.9 / 5 (23) Jul 26, 2013
You are like an insane woodpecker looking for a grub in a block of concrete.

His anthem: http://www.metrol...ard.html
Neinsense99
3 / 5 (24) Jul 26, 2013
A Republican Secretary of State Urges Action on Climate Change
http://www.scient...d-energy (So much for it being a 'socialist cult'. He worked with Reagan.)
VendicarE
4.3 / 5 (14) Jul 26, 2013
Anti-Gore-Tard still hasn't provided his address.

What is it Coward? I'll come over and bring you a nice cold beer, and then you can try and beat me as per your ape like threat.

antigoracle
1.3 / 5 (27) Jul 27, 2013

How does he know what he knows? How does he know 'AGW Alarmist Chickens' are part of a cult? ....

Elementary my dear chicken, there is something called a brain, grow one and then try to use it.

Predictable misquote, failure to address question, audition for Dunning-Kruger Effect Demonstrator of the Year.


Tell me chicken, did that lake form from melting snow?
BikeToAustralia
3.1 / 5 (22) Jul 27, 2013
Flaming each other is not going to change the facts. Our planet is changing faster than ever before. " Price of Progress" gains new meaning.
VENDItardE
1 / 5 (22) Jul 27, 2013
"i would most certainly enjoy beating, i mean meeting, the hell out of you" - VendiTardE

What is your address. I'll come right over, coward.


pm'd you the address, when can i expect you ?
meBigGuy
4.3 / 5 (14) Jul 28, 2013
Methinks not!
Nature puts methane hydrate fears to rest – says it will be 1,000 years before they make any impact:
http://www.nature...24314790


Off Topic --- this is about release from tundra, not the ocean.
antigoracle
1 / 5 (23) Jul 28, 2013
Methinks not!
Nature puts methane hydrate fears to rest – says it will be 1,000 years before they make any impact:
http://www.nature...24314790


Off Topic --- this is about release from tundra, not the ocean.

Whatcha talkin bout Willis?
deepsand
3 / 5 (20) Jul 29, 2013
Time lapse photos showing the new lake at the north pole: http://www.cbc.ca...g-3.html

News Flash:
Lake forms at North Pole when sky is overcast, totally obscuring the sun and raindrops can be seen covering camera.
AGW Alarmist Chickens cry North Pole is melting because of CO2.
More at 10:00, when the chickens will see the sky falling.
The gullibility of the cult defies belief. When will they grow a brain and see the CO2 lie for what it is.

Have your doctors given you an estimate as to how long before your brain has been completely transformed into fecal matter?
deepsand
3 / 5 (20) Jul 29, 2013
Time lapse photos showing the new lake at the north pole: http://www.cbc.ca...g-3.html

News Flash:
Lake forms at North Pole when sky is overcast, totally obscuring the sun and raindrops can be seen covering camera.
AGW Alarmist Chickens cry North Pole is melting because of CO2.
More at 10:00, when the chickens will see the sky falling.
The gullibility of the cult defies belief. When will they grow a brain and see the CO2 lie for what it is.

How does he know what he knows? How does he know 'AGW Alarmist Chickens' are part of a cult? Never once has he shown evidence, so his belief that others are acting blindly on faith appears to be itself convenient faith-based reasoning.

Tell me chicken, did that lake form from melting snow?

Had you bothered to read the cited article who would have your answer.
deepsand
3.1 / 5 (21) Jul 29, 2013
Time lapse photos showing the new lake at the north pole: http://www.cbc.ca...g-3.html
Please educate yourself chickens.

Advice you would do well to heed.

The USS Skate did not surface at the North Pole on 11 AUG 1958; she broke through thin ice near the North Pole on 17 MAR 1958 after having her sail reinforced for just such purpose.
deepsand
3 / 5 (20) Jul 29, 2013
How does he know what he knows? How does he know 'AGW Alarmist Chickens' are part of a cult? ....

Elementary my dear chicken, there is something called a brain, grow one and then try to use it.

When might we expect you to heed such advice?
deepsand
3 / 5 (20) Jul 29, 2013
How does he know what he knows? How does he know 'AGW Alarmist Chickens' are part of a cult?

Elementary my dear chicken, there is something called a brain, grow one and then try to use it.

Predictable misquote, failure to address question, audition for Dunning-Kruger Effect Demonstrator of the Year

Tell me chicken, did that lake form from melting snow?

Tell us, shit for brains, did you read the article?
deepsand
3 / 5 (20) Jul 29, 2013
Methinks not!
Nature puts methane hydrate fears to rest – says it will be 1,000 years before they make any impact:
http://www.nature...24314790

Off Topic --- this is about release from tundra, not the ocean.

Whatcha talkin bout Willis?

Had you bothered to find out what methane hydrates are and where they are found you'd have no need for asking the question.
antigoracle
1 / 5 (24) Jul 29, 2013
Time lapse photos showing the new lake at the north pole: http://www.cbc.ca...g-3.html
Please educate yourself chickens.

Advice you would do well to heed.

The USS Skate did not surface at the North Pole on 11 AUG 1958; she broke through thin ice near the North Pole on 17 MAR 1958 after having her sail reinforced for just such purpose.

Thin ice near the North Pole in the winter of 1958.
I repeat, grow a brain and educate yourself.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (12) Jul 29, 2013
" Price of Progress" gains new meaning.

Yep. And at some point the price is higher then the benefit of an given progress. Then what?
Then we'll be well and truly f*ked as a species.
Just so that a few individuals could have a day in the sun. (And a fitting end to humanity it would be)
djr
4.8 / 5 (16) Jul 29, 2013
antigoracle - "Thin ice near the North Pole in the winter of 1958.
I repeat, grow a brain and educate yourself."

We get it - you think your brain is superior to everyone else's (including tens of thousands of climate scientists who are doing the hard work of collecting the data.) And an example of your logic - is that one picture of a submarine, the Navy is not sure when the picture is taken, or exactly where - trumps decades of satellite data - showing the ice sheets shrinking, and shrinking, and shrinking. Yes very impressive.......
antigoracle
1 / 5 (23) Jul 29, 2013
antigoracle - "Thin ice near the North Pole in the winter of 1958.
I repeat, grow a brain and educate yourself."

We get it - you think your brain is superior to everyone else's (including tens of thousands of climate scientists who are doing the hard work of collecting the data.) And an example of your logic - is that one picture of a submarine, the Navy is not sure when the picture is taken, or exactly where - trumps decades of satellite data - showing the ice sheets shrinking, and shrinking, and shrinking. Yes very impressive.......

No you don't get it.
Your dismissive attitude of all the factual evidence that one picture holds, confirms your lack of a brain and the fact that you'll never see the AGW Alarmist propaganda for the lies they are.
It's obviously too much to ask you in the cult to individually grow a brain, so perhaps you may try a collective one and educate yourselves.
djr
4.7 / 5 (13) Jul 29, 2013
"Your dismissive attitude of all the factual evidence that one picture holds"

That picture is trotted out periodically on these discussions. If you read up on the picture - you see there is clearly uncertainty regarding the date, and the place of the picture. So - in your giant brain - one picture - of uncertain origins - trumps decades of satelite data. Do you even know what science is?
meBigGuy
4.7 / 5 (13) Jul 30, 2013
I have to laugh. One picture? vs. Decades of data? People with pre-conceptions will only accept that which supports their pre-conceptions.
I started as a denier, but studying alternative claims left me no alternative to accept that the mainstream is mostly correct. The obvious tricks, deceitful tactics and just plain bad science practiced by deniers left me nowhere to go. On a side note, antgigoracle is one of the most content-free, ineffectual deniers I have come across. I still look for alternative views based on scientific data, but nothing of note has come along for a while. What scares me most is positive feedback mechanisms are are being discovered.
As I've said in other places, AGW is not about the survival of the earth, or even humanity. It's about the economic impacts and their effects on civilization as it exists now. People will adapt, economies will adapt, partial solutions will be found, but things will change. Maybe more slowly than some think, maybe faster
deepsand
3 / 5 (20) Jul 30, 2013
antigoracle - "Thin ice near the North Pole in the winter of 1958.
I repeat, grow a brain and educate yourself."

We get it - you think your brain is superior to everyone else's (including tens of thousands of climate scientists who are doing the hard work of collecting the data.) And an example of your logic - is that one picture of a submarine, the Navy is not sure when the picture is taken, or exactly where - trumps decades of satellite data - showing the ice sheets shrinking, and shrinking, and shrinking. Yes very impressive.

No you don't get it.
Your dismissive attitude of all the factual evidence that one picture holds, confirms your lack of a brain and the fact that you'll never see the AGW Alarmist propaganda for the lies they are..

Your one picture and it's description is a lie. Here's a picture of the real thing.

http://upload.wik...1959.jpg

antigoracle
1 / 5 (23) Jul 30, 2013
I have to laugh. One picture? vs. Decades of data? People with pre-conceptions will only accept that which supports their pre-conceptions.
I started as a denier, but studying alternative claims left me no alternative to accept that the mainstream is mostly correct. The obvious tricks, deceitful tactics and just plain bad science practiced by deniers left me nowhere to go. On a side note, antgigoracle is one of the most content-free, ineffectual deniers I have come across. I still look for alternative views based on scientific data, but nothing of note has come along for a while. What scares me most is positive feedback mechanisms are are being discovered. .....

So tell us what have you done to curb your CO2 footprint?
djr
4.7 / 5 (15) Jul 30, 2013
"So tell us what have you done to curb your CO2 footprint?"

It is pointed out that your incredible picture of a submarine is meaningless - and what do you do - change the subject. Some big brain you have there - cannot even stay on topic - let alone make meaningful contributions to said topic.
antigoracle
1 / 5 (22) Jul 30, 2013
"So tell us what have you done to curb your CO2 footprint?"

It is pointed out that your incredible picture of a submarine is meaningless - and what do you do - change the subject. Some big brain you have there - cannot even stay on topic - let alone make meaningful contributions to said topic.

There you go again, reaffirming your absence of a brain.
LetMeGoogleThatForYou - http://www.navsou...8578.htm
On 17 March 1959, Skate (SSN-578) surfaced at the North Pole to commit the ashes of the famed explorer Sir Hubert Wilkins to the Arctic waste.
http://navsource....7824.jpg
So here we have a submarine surfacing at the North Pole in the Winter of 1959 under a foot of ice, when the average ice is normally meters thick and of course to you in the cult it's insignificant.
However, a lake forms from a rainstorm and the brainless cult brays the North Pole is melting.
I repeat grow a brain and educate yourselves.
Neinsense99
2.9 / 5 (19) Jul 30, 2013
"So tell us what have you done to curb your CO2 footprint?"

It is pointed out that your incredible picture of a submarine is meaningless - and what do you do - change the subject. Some big brain you have there - cannot even stay on topic - let alone make meaningful contributions to said topic.

There you go again, reaffirming your absence of a brain.
LetMeGoogleThatForYou - http://www.navsou...8578.htm
So here we have a submarine surfacing at the North Pole in the Winter of 1959 under a foot of ice, when the average ice is normally meters thick and of course to you in the cult it's insignificant.
However, a lake forms from a rainstorm and the brainless cult brays the North Pole is melting.
I repeat grow a brain and educate yourselves.

"lake forms from a rainstorm" Unsupported assertion.
Neinsense99
2.9 / 5 (19) Jul 30, 2013
"So tell us what have you done to curb your CO2 footprint?"

It is pointed out that your incredible picture of a submarine is meaningless - and what do you do - change the subject. Some big brain you have there - cannot even stay on topic - let alone make meaningful contributions to said topic.

There you go again, reaffirming your absence of a brain.
LetMeGoogleThatForYou - http://www.navsou...8578.htm
So here we have a submarine surfacing at the North Pole in the Winter of 1959 under a foot of ice, when the average ice is normally meters thick and of course to you in the cult it's insignificant.
However, a lake forms from a rainstorm and the brainless cult brays the North Pole is melting.
I repeat grow a brain and educate yourselves.

Educate and obfuscate don't even have the same first letter or length, but (r)anti confuses the meanings of the words once again.
Neinsense99
2.9 / 5 (19) Jul 30, 2013
meBigGuy wrote: "...I started as a denier, but studying alternative claims left me no alternative to accept that the mainstream is mostly correct. The obvious tricks, deceitful tactics and just plain bad science practiced by deniers left me nowhere to go. On a side note, antgigoracle is one of the most content-free, ineffectual deniers I have come across...."
You meant antigoracle, but whatever the user name, you won't get a dissenting opinion on your side note from me. If somebody actually wanted to make a biopic based on his 'career' as a phys.org pest, it would be called Denylander II: The Thickening. Coming soon to a fecally-focused Yourube channel near you. Featuring the unmemorable catchphrase "There can be only one (star rating)! Exciting adventure filled with the slashing of credibility, culminating in the beheading of reason amid a spectacular display of electric universe effects. To be followed with a petty retort as sequel.

djr
4.7 / 5 (12) Jul 30, 2013
"On 17 March 1959"

But you said 1958. Look - "Thin ice near the North Pole in the winter of 1958."

So - genius brain - you can't even tell us which year the picture is from - let alone exactly where the sub is, or which month it was taken. But you want to supercede all the scientific data showing us that the Arctic ice sheets are melting - because Wattsupwiththat or some other nutty web site gave you a reference to a picture of a sub - somewhere in the world, some year, some month. That picture keeps getting recycled - and the ambiguities with it keep getting explained - but you keep recycling it - who needs to grow a brain? who is acting like a cult member?
antigoracle
1 / 5 (21) Jul 30, 2013
"On 17 March 1959"

But you said 1958. Look - "Thin ice near the North Pole in the winter of 1958."

So - genius brain - you can't even tell us which year the picture is from - let alone exactly where the sub is, or which month it was taken. But you want to supercede all the scientific data showing us that the Arctic ice sheets are melting - because Wattsupwiththat or some other nutty web site gave you a reference to a picture of a sub - somewhere in the world, some year, some month. That picture keeps getting recycled - and the ambiguities with it keep getting explained - but you keep recycling it - who needs to grow a brain? who is acting like a cult member?

Perhaps if you had a brain, you would see I was quoting your fellow brainless cult member, deepsand.
Seriously, grow a brain.
antigoracle
1 / 5 (21) Jul 30, 2013

Educate and obfuscate don't even have the same first letter or length, but (r)anti confuses the meanings of the words once again.

Hmmm.. strong be the stupidity in this one.
With members like this, the cult will never run low on stupid.
Sinister1811
3.1 / 5 (21) Jul 30, 2013
Yep, the usual idiots and trolls are showing up here with complaints about Al Gore conspiracy theories. I'm thinking it's about time this website took its moderation more seriously and started banning these cooks and cranks.
Neinsense99
2.9 / 5 (19) Jul 31, 2013
Yep, the usual idiots and trolls are showing up here with complaints about Al Gore conspiracy theories. I'm thinking it's about time this website took its moderation more seriously and started banning these cooks and cranks.

And where would the hits come from?
runrig
5 / 5 (11) Jul 31, 2013
There seems to be some confusion/controversy over when this sub broke through the NP ice.
Can I point out ( if this is the assertion - it is dated as such at http://wattsupwit...o-thick/ ) that this pic......

http://www.navalh...rth-pole

cannot have been taken in March at the NP. - because it shows water - it is the time of max ice thickness as the sun does not rise above the horizon until the 21st.

This pic ....http://upload.wik...1959.jpg

either wasn't taken at the NP or it is later than the 19th March as a shadow is cast. In late June the Sun is at 23.5 deg above the horizon and the shadow cast by the sub looks close to what I would expect in the summer.
Either way I do not dispute that in late July it would not be unusual to have a "lake" at the NP.
djr
4.7 / 5 (13) Jul 31, 2013
"Perhaps if you had a brain, you would see I was quoting your fellow brainless cult member, deepsand.
Seriously, grow a brain."

The point is that there is discrepancy about the date and time of the picture - that is the point. Even if there was not - the existence of one picture does not change the reality of the ice sheet data - and your needing to reference one picture - which is of uncertain date and time - shows who needs to grow a brain. You know nothing of science.
deepsand
2.8 / 5 (20) Jul 31, 2013
I have to laugh. One picture? vs. Decades of data? People with pre-conceptions will only accept that which supports their pre-conceptions.
I started as a denier, but studying alternative claims left me no alternative to accept that the mainstream is mostly correct. The obvious tricks, deceitful tactics and just plain bad science practiced by deniers left me nowhere to go. On a side note, antgigoracle is one of the most content-free, ineffectual deniers I have come across. I still look for alternative views based on scientific data, but nothing of note has come along for a while. What scares me most is positive feedback mechanisms are are being discovered. .....

So tell us what have you done to curb your CO2 footprint?

What have you done to improve your knowledge and understanding of the subject at hand?
deepsand
2.9 / 5 (21) Jul 31, 2013
It is pointed out that your incredible picture of a submarine is meaningless - and what do you do - change the subject. Some big brain you have there - cannot even stay on topic - let alone make meaningful contributions to said topic.

There you go again, reaffirming your absence of a brain.
LetMeGoogleThatForYou - http://www.navsou...8578.htm
So here we have a submarine surfacing at the North Pole in the Winter of 1959 under a foot of ice, when the average ice is normally meters thick and of course to you in the cult it's insignificant.

Where is it stated what the thickness of the ice was that the submarine broke trough, or what is "normal" for that location at that time of year?
However, a lake forms from a rainstorm and the brainless cult brays the North Pole is melting.

Where is it stated that said lake was formed by rain?
I repeat grow a brain and educate yourselves.

Advice that you would do well to heed.
meBigGuy
4.3 / 5 (13) Jul 31, 2013
I don't understand why antigoracle doesn't even know about the super-secret military heat rays that are used by submarines to melt through the ice. They are pretty well documented in the many Marvell volumes and so cannot be disputed. So, antigoracle, prove the heat rays don't exist and weren't used in that picture!
deepsand
2.9 / 5 (21) Jul 31, 2013
"On 17 March 1959"

But you said 1958. Look - "Thin ice near the North Pole in the winter of 1958."

So - genius brain - you can't even tell us which year the picture is from - let alone exactly where the sub is, or which month it was taken. But you want to supercede all the scientific data showing us that the Arctic ice sheets are melting - because Wattsupwiththat or some other nutty web site gave you a reference to a picture of a sub - somewhere in the world, some year, some month. That picture keeps getting recycled - and the ambiguities with it keep getting explained - but you keep recycling it - who needs to grow a brain? who is acting like a cult member?

Perhaps if you had a brain, you would see I was quoting your fellow brainless cult member, deepsand.
Seriously, grow a brain.

Nice try at evading the fact that it was you who made the false claim re. an earlier surfacing by the Skate.

Only an incredibly stupid person would expect that to go unnoticed
Neinsense99
3 / 5 (20) Jul 31, 2013
I don't understand why antigoracle doesn't even know about the super-secret military heat rays that are used by submarines to melt through the ice. They are pretty well documented in the many Marvell volumes and so cannot be disputed. So, antigoracle, prove the heat rays don't exist and weren't used in that picture!

Documented in Marvell journals? Perhaps he's more of a DC science kind of guy?
deepsand
2.8 / 5 (20) Jul 31, 2013
Educate and obfuscate don't even have the same first letter or length, but (r)anti confuses the meanings of the words once again.

Hmmm.. strong be the stupidity in this one.
With members like this, the cult will never run low on stupid.

Big Oil and Big Coal are grateful for your stupidity, and ask that you recruit more just like yourself.
meBigGuy
4.1 / 5 (14) Jul 31, 2013
"So tell us what have you done to curb your CO2 footprint? "

Why do you make the assumtion that I want to avoid global warming? Why does there have to be a connection between believing the obvious, easy to understand science and wanting to do something to avoid the consequences. There are billions to be made exploiting the changes that global warming will bring. Billions to be made causing the changes, too. Not to mention thousands to be made researching the science and discovering the truth. (dang those unscupulous money hungry science guys).

I like plants, violent storms, and warmer winters in the arctic (better for aurora watching).
VendicarE
4.5 / 5 (8) Jul 31, 2013
"On 17 March 1959, Skate (SSN-578) surfaced at the North Pole to commit the ashes of the famed explorer Sir Hubert Wilkins to the Arctic waste." - Anti-Gore-Tard

The picture shows the sub surrounded by ice.

Your own reference exposes your earlier lie.

You poor Tard. Poor, poor Tard.
Neinsense99
2.6 / 5 (18) Jul 31, 2013
"So tell us what have you done to curb your CO2 footprint? "

Why do you make the assumtion that I want to avoid global warming? Why does there have to be a connection between believing the obvious, easy to understand science and wanting to do something to avoid the consequences. There are billions to be made exploiting the changes that global warming will bring. Billions to be made causing the changes, too. Not to mention thousands to be made researching the science and discovering the truth. (dang those unscupulous money hungry science guys).

I like plants, violent storms, and warmer winters in the arctic (better for aurora watching).

Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale aurora light?
VendicarE
4 / 5 (8) Jul 31, 2013
"So here we have a submarine surfacing at the North Pole in the Winter of 1959 under a foot of ice, " - Anti-Gore-Tard

Then why does your picture show over 1 foot of ice?

Is it because you are a low life, moron?

What proof do you have that the sub was at the north pole? You can't even get the year right.
VendicarE
4 / 5 (8) Jul 31, 2013
"So tell us what have you done to curb your CO2 footprint?" - Anti-Gore-Tard

Improved home insulation, CF and LED lighting, I do not own a car, and use air conditioning perhaps 30 hours a year. I am also mostly vegetarian.

My electric power consumption for example is in the mid single digits. Heating is soon to be supplemented via passive solar.

You on the other hand appear to be a Low Life Tardie boy?
Neinsense99
2.6 / 5 (18) Jul 31, 2013
"So here we have a submarine surfacing at the North Pole in the Winter of 1959 under a foot of ice, " - Anti-Gore-Tard

Then why does your picture show over 1 foot of ice?

Is it because you are a low life, moron?

What proof do you have that the sub was at the north pole? You can't even get the year right.

He might have read something about 1957 being the International Goracle Year or something like that. https://en.wikipe...cal_Year
VendicarE
4 / 5 (8) Jul 31, 2013
"Your dismissive attitude of all the factual evidence" - Anti-Gore-Tard

This "evidence" would be a picture you got wrong, and a date that you got wrong, the picture being of a sub that you claim to have, but can not prove to have, surfaced at the north pole?

Evidence? Hahahahahahahahah......... MORON.
Neinsense99
2.6 / 5 (18) Jul 31, 2013
"So here we have a submarine surfacing at the North Pole in the Winter of 1959 under a foot of ice, " - Anti-Gore-Tard

Then why does your picture show over 1 foot of ice?

Is it because you are a low life, moron?

What proof do you have that the sub was at the north pole? You can't even get the year right.

Well, it IS a bit more credible than a screenshot with an ice flow, polar bear, penguin and bottle of whatever gut rot made the ad. Not much though.
Neinsense99
2.4 / 5 (17) Jul 31, 2013
"So tell us what have you done to curb your CO2 footprint? "

Why do you make the assumtion that I want to avoid global warming? Why does there have to be a connection between believing the obvious, easy to understand science and wanting to do something to avoid the consequences. There are billions to be made exploiting the changes that global warming will bring. Billions to be made causing the changes, too. Not to mention thousands to be made researching the science and discovering the truth. (dang those unscupulous money hungry science guys).

I like plants, violent storms, and warmer winters in the arctic (better for aurora watching).

It's slower than blasting California for beach front property, but there's no finicky missile stuff to worry about, and that pesky Kryptonian in tights can't turn CO2 around so easily. Makes perfect sense. ;)
djr
4.6 / 5 (10) Jul 31, 2013
Antigoracle was the first person on this thread to link to this article -http://www.navalh...rth-pole

The articles claims that the Skate surfaced at the north pole in 1958. Antigoracle leaves this comment "Please educate yourself chickens."

If you read the comments at the end of said article - you will see that it is refuted that the Skate surfaced at the North Pole in 1958 - due to the ice being too thick. This refutation was from someone who was on the sub at the time. This Wiki page supports the assertion that the Skate did NOT surface at the NP in 1958. http://en.wikiped...SSN-578)

All of this is irrelevant - other than to show that it is Antigoracle who is a cult member - and needs to grow a brain. In the real world of science - decades of data are what is looked for - not single pictures of uncertain origin. Who is a cult member?
VendicarE
3.7 / 5 (7) Jul 31, 2013
(My address) "4212 south lyndale ave minneapolis, mn" - VenditardE

Address currently occupied by A. Parker AKA NotParker, AKA ParkerTard

Filth. Identified.
antigoracle
1.2 / 5 (17) Aug 01, 2013
"So tell us what have you done to curb your CO2 footprint?" - Anti-Gore-Tard

Improved home insulation, CF and LED lighting, I do not own a car, and use air conditioning perhaps 30 hours a year. I am also mostly vegetarian.

My electric power consumption for example is in the mid single digits. Heating is soon to be supplemented via passive solar.

You on the other hand appear to be a Low Life Tardie boy?
-- VendiTurd
Your False Prophet Gore is sitting in his mansion, burning over 20 times the power of the average US household and laughing at you. So tell me, who is the tard now, turd.
djr
4.3 / 5 (6) Aug 01, 2013
Antigoracle: " So tell me, who is the tard now, turd."

When I read articles like the one today - talking about an advance in the fight against cancer - that is going to allow our bodies to tolerate higher doses of chemotherapy, and is a major breakthrough in our progress - I am encouraged - and think we are going to pull it off. When I read comments like yours, and niks, and uba's - it sets me back, and makes me feel that collectively we are too stupid, and going to destroy ourselves. Are you OK with that role Anti? The role of destroyer of hope. One of the people who is gut punching the human race - each time it tries to get up on it's feet and walk???
antigoracle
1.4 / 5 (18) Aug 01, 2013
Antigoracle: " So tell me, who is the tard now, turd."

When I read articles like the one today - talking about an advance in the fight against cancer - that is going to allow our bodies to tolerate higher doses of chemotherapy, and is a major breakthrough in our progress - I am encouraged - and think we are going to pull it off. When I read comments like yours, and niks, and uba's - it sets me back, and makes me feel that collectively we are too stupid, and going to destroy ourselves. Are you OK with that role Anti? The role of destroyer of hope. One of the people who is gut punching the human race - each time it tries to get up on it's feet and walk???

When you read comments, by your fellow cultist Vendicar, calling everyone a tard, I'm sure your heart swells with pride and joy and you reward him with a 5 rating. It's the ignorant hypocrites like you in the cult, who believes you're the cream of humanity, that's the destroyer of hope.
Neinsense99
1.9 / 5 (14) Aug 01, 2013
(My address) "4212 south lyndale ave minneapolis, mn" - VenditardE

Address currently occupied by A. Parker AKA NotParker, AKA ParkerTard

Filth. Identified.

Launching in five...four...three...two...
VendicarE
2.8 / 5 (4) Aug 01, 2013
"Your False Prophet Gore is sitting in his mansion, burning over 20 times the power of the average US household" - Anti-Gore-Tard

That "mansion" is filled with employees.

They are something you will never have, working at their jobs. Also something you will never have.

VendicarE
2 / 5 (5) Aug 01, 2013
"When you read comments, by your fellow cultist Vendicar, calling everyone a tard" - Anti-Gore-Tard

If the Tard is upset at being correctly labeled a Tard then the Tard should stop acting like a Tard.

Of course the Tard does not comprehend this because the Tard is a Tard.

Isn't that right TardieBoy?
djr
3.5 / 5 (6) Aug 01, 2013
"When you read comments, by your fellow cultist Vendicar, calling everyone a tard, I'm sure your heart swells with pride and joy and you reward him with a 5 rating. It's the ignorant hypocrites like you in the cult, who believes you're the cream of humanity, that's the destroyer of hope."

Notice you did not answer the question.

It does bother me that Vendi uses the term tard, and threatens people - and I wish Vendi would use a more constructive approach. However - at least Vendi is clearly competent in the area of science, and is not arguing against the preponderance of evidence, and the consensus of the scientific community. That does not excuse the language, but at least it does not make me feel that here is someone who is trying to hold the human race back from progress.
djr
3.5 / 5 (6) Aug 01, 2013
"It's the ignorant hypocrites like you in the cult, who believes you're the cream of humanity, that's the destroyer of hope."

How on earth do you conclude that I am an ignorant hypocrite, who believes he is the cream of humanity? That really confuses me. I wish that I had received a better education - and could today be one of the scientists pushing the frontiers of knowledge. I have great regard for the researchers who are developing these new cancer therapies that will hopefully save my life one day. I am excited by AI, and energy technologies, and fuel cells etc. etc. How do you come off accusing me of thinking I am the cream of humanity. I am very torn at this point. I am not sure if most of humanity shares the ignorance that I read in your posts. I don't know if we can break the bottleneck of ignorance - but I see myself as much more of an observer - very hobbled by a crappy education system - and a religionist upbringing.

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