Entrepreneurs pray more, see God as personal, researchers find

Jun 05, 2013

American entrepreneurs pray more frequently, are more likely to see God as personal and are more likely to attend services in congregations that encourage business and profit-making, according to a study by Baylor University scholars of business and sociology.

Their research, published in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion in June, is an analysis of data from the ongoing Baylor Religion Survey. A total of 1,714 chosen randomly from across the country answered more than 300 items in the survey, designed by Baylor scholars and administered by the Gallup Organization in 2010. The study is part of a larger research project on religion and entrepreneurship funded by the National Science Foundation.

Entrepreneurs are categorized in the study as those who have started a new or who are trying to do so.

"Entrepreneurs take on tasks that are yet unproven," said Mitchell J. Neubert, Ph.D., associate professor and Chavanne Chair of Christian Ethics in Business in Baylor's Hankamer School of Business. "We know they are praying more, but we don't know yet what they're praying about. It might be for the wisdom to navigate uncertainty. It could be 'Please give me more success,' or 'Give me more energy to work a 25-hour day.'"

When it comes to entrepreneurs' concept of God, "they tend to think of God as a more personal, interactive being, and that is tightly related to why they pray more frequently," said Kevin Dougherty, Ph.D., an associate professor of sociology in Baylor's College of Arts & Sciences.

More than half of the entrepreneurs in the survey pray daily, while a third pray several times a day.

"Another interesting finding is where they worship," Dougherty said. The researchers determined that entrepreneurs tend to worship in pro-business religious communities.

The study reported that survey respondents in the eastern United States are less likely than those in the South to report that their place of worship encourages participants to start a business or make a profit.

The study raises interesting considerations for faith communities. While congregations are recognized for such actions as mobilizing individuals to vote and volunteer, "previous research on congregations says very little about the emphasis given to work and business," the article notes.

Because of the country's "competitive religious market," congregations specialize to attract and retain individuals. Catering to entrepreneurial individuals may offer "a competitive advantage," the researchers wrote.

The researchers are continuing to gather data for further analysis, including interviews with full-time workers and entrepreneurs across the United States.

Other questions the study raises are whether pick a congregation that matches their entrepreneurial orientation—and whether a faith community can help prepare someone for entrepreneurship.

"How is religion related to entrepreneurial behavior? And more importantly, why?" the article asks. "Equally fascinating, how do religious individuals engaged in business creation reconcile the teachings of their faith on material gain with their entrepreneurial endeavors? Prompted by these initial findings, we hope others will join us to expand understanding of if, how and why, religion and entrepreneurial behavior intersect."

Explore further: Scientists find growing consensus: Political attitudes derive from body and mind

More information: The article, "A Religious Profile of American Entrepreneurs," is published in the current issue of the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, volume 52, issue 2.

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alfie_null
3.3 / 5 (3) Jun 05, 2013
For all that praying, what's the success rate? The vast majority still fail, or at least end up being nothing more than mediocre. Note: not that I'm against entrepreneurship. It's important and necessary. Just being pragmatic.
antialias_physorg
4.1 / 5 (17) Jun 05, 2013
to attend services in congregations that encourage business and profit-making

...thoroughly christian values, that.

Catering to entrepreneurial individuals may offer "a competitive advantage,"

It's sometimes freaky to see how far removed modern day religions are from their origins.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (19) Jun 05, 2013
Another reason for 'liberals' to hate entrepreneurs.
antialias_physorg
3.9 / 5 (19) Jun 05, 2013
Why would anyone hate anyone else just because they pray?

Prayer is pretty much the most non-offensive one as religious practices go.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (19) Jun 05, 2013
Why would anyone hate anyone else just because they pray?

Prayer is pretty much the most non-offensive one as religious practices go.

Ask those atheists who hate religion and the individuals who have faith in God.
They will soon be posting.
antialias_physorg
4.3 / 5 (22) Jun 05, 2013
Ask those atheists who hate religion and the individuals who have faith in God.

Well, I'm one of those atheists that think religious people are mentally deranged. But if the mentally deranged want to pray - so what?

As long as they don't let their belief influence any actions that affect anyone else (by using it to justify policy or merely getting on people's nerves by prosetilyzing) they're free to fantasize about talking to someone else as much a they want to.

People should be free to indulge their fantasies in their minds.
kochevnik
3.5 / 5 (8) Jun 05, 2013
American entrepreneurs are praying to their god Ben Bernanke to shower more unlimited credit upon them with quantitative easing five. Corporations use funny money to buy back their stock from shareholders and make stock prices soar even as returns vanish. American economy ran on bullshiyte in the last decade but prayers and tribute fuel the new decade
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (15) Jun 05, 2013
by using it to justify policy or merely getting on people's nerves by prosetilyzing

But it's ok for atheists to use their faith to promote socialism and get on the nerves, and backs, of those who want the state to leave them alone?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (12) Jun 05, 2013
Why would anyone hate anyone else just because they pray?

Prayer is pretty much the most non-offensive one as religious practices go.
What, wishing for special favors from some non-existent god? Because some book promises that this god will grant your every wish if only you worship it in the proper way?

"7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." matt7

-You dont find this sort of lie offensive in the extreme?

You dont find similar graft and corruption obscene as well? At least with the mob there is a payoff. God never has to deliver on his promises and never does because they are impossible to prove. But immortality is worth the odds.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (15) Jun 05, 2013
hi rygg
But it's ok for atheists to use their faith to promote socialism
Im not a socialist. And yet I hate religion. I believe your religion, like the rest of them, were invented to manipulate the people in exactly the same way that communism does. For the exact same reasons and using exactly the same formula.

They are all very good at replacing problematic cultures based on mindless dogma, with newer and more efficient mindless dogma.

All are based on the lie that a chosen people has some intrinsic rights that others do not.
As long as they don't let their belief influence any actions that affect anyone else
Of course people who buy into this lie affect the opinions of others. People who claim tthat their wishes have been granted, only encourage others to indulge.

Pretty soon they are insisting that the practice take place in schools because of the obvious benefits to your children.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (13) Jun 05, 2013
", "previous research on congregations says very little about the emphasis given to work and business," the article notes."

They didn't look very hard.

" Puritan leaders inculcated the Protestant work ethic and linked it with the concept of honest labor leading to private ownership. Civic government substituted for trade guilds by enforcing quality control of the colony's products. The Puritans used the church, the family, and the General Court to create a moral capitalism that enabled the colonists to gain a high standard of living without becoming corrupted by it. "
Summary of "Creating the Commonwealth: The Economic Culture of Puritan New England", by Innes
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.3 / 5 (14) Jun 05, 2013
", "previous research on congregations says very little about the emphasis given to work and business," the article notes."

They didn't look very hard.

" Puritan leaders inculcated the Protestant work ethic and linked it with the concept of honest labor leading to private ownership. Civic government substituted for trade guilds by enforcing quality control of the colony's products. The Puritans used the church, the family, and the General Court to create a moral capitalism that enabled the colonists to gain a high standard of living without becoming corrupted by it. "
Summary of "Creating the Commonwealth: The Economic Culture of Puritan New England", by Innes
So what? Sharia law forbids usuary. And richard nixon was a quaker. And puritans burned midwives which they regarded as witches for teaching contraception.
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (13) Jun 05, 2013
The authors did not look very hard for relationships between congregations, work and business.
In the 1600s, it was considered unseemly for anyone with wealth to work.
The Puritans changed that perception by demonstrating that work leads to wealth and one should continue to work after earning wealth.
As Innes suggests, this led to more independent property owners compared with the plantations of Virginia and I suggest the 'dons' of the Spanish colonies.
The authors didn't do much of a literature search.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.2 / 5 (13) Jun 05, 2013
In the 1600s, it was considered unseemly for anyone with wealth to work.
The Puritans changed that perception by demonstrating that work leads to wealth and one should continue to work after earning wealth
In the 1600s it was unseemly for puritans to do business with anyone else besides their own, whether bad for business or not.
this led to more independent property owners
Puritans would not let heathens and heretics own property within their communities, whether bad for business or not.
antialias_physorg
4.1 / 5 (14) Jun 05, 2013
But it's ok for atheists to use their faith to promote socialism and get on the nerves

What exactly does atheism and socialism have to do with one another?

(If anything socialism - and in most cases even communism - is a religious thing. At least if you look at the tenets put forth by the respective founders of any religion you care to look at)

What, wishing for special favors from some non-existent god? Because some book promises that this god will grant your every wish if only you worship it in the proper way?

People knock on wood or do any number of nonsensical things. As actions go prayer is rather harmless. What people do in their minds is their business. I might find it stupid - but I don't find it offensive.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (15) Jun 05, 2013
What exactly does atheism and socialism have to do with one another?

Both refuse to acknowledge human rights are inherent, and Lenin stated that a socialist MUST, by definition, be atheist.
(If anything socialism - and in most cases even communism - is a religious thing

And you don't mind the socialists pushing their faith, with a gun?
You're surrounded by socialists in Europe? They don't get on your nerves?
antialias_physorg
4.3 / 5 (18) Jun 05, 2013
Both refuse to acknowledge human rights are inherent,

Erm...OK...first you conflate an (absence) of a stance on theological issues with a social/political system and now you're throwing an ethical issue and then gun issues into the mix?
You're bit confused about things in life, aren't you?

And you don't mind the socialists pushing their faith, with a gun?
You're surrounded by socialists in Europe? They don't get on your nerves?

But very few guns - fancy that.
Social capitalism seems to be working pretty well here (there aren't any purely socialist nations in Europe - it's always a mix).
I get the chance to benefit from applying myself and at the same time have the complete peace of mind that comes with the automatic safety nets (unemployment insurance, health insurance, ... )...and I'm saying that as someone who is in the maximum tax bracket (roughly 43% of my paycheck goes to taxes)
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (13) Jun 05, 2013
But very few guns

When only the govt has the guns, what are the victims going to do?
Social capitalism seems to be working pretty well here

Define 'well'.
In UK hospital patients are starving to death as govt staff are too busy to feed them.
Muslims on welfare in Sweden are rioting.
"Spain Is Beyond Doomed: The 2 Scariest Unemployment Charts Ever" http://www.theatl.../275324/
ave the complete peace of mind that comes with the automatic safety nets

As long as you don't run out of other people's money.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (13) Jun 05, 2013
"France's plight was initially apparent in the economy, which has been stagnating for five years, because French state capitalism no longer works. But the crisis reaches deeper than that. At issue is a political class that more than three quarters of the population considers corrupt, and a president who, this early in his term, is already more unpopular than any of his predecessors"
" "Germany cannot carry the euro on its shoulders alone indefinitely," writes Harvard University economist Kenneth Rogoff. "
"But the French welfare state costs money, a lot of money."
http://www.spiege...732.html
DavidW
1 / 5 (10) Jun 05, 2013
Well, I'm one of those atheists that think religious people are mentally deranged..


Under these conditions it is no wonder, that the movement of atheists, which declares religion to be just a deliberate illusion, invented by power-seeking priests, and which has for the pious belief in a higher Power nothing but words of mockery, eagerly makes use of progressive scientific knowledge and in a presumed unity with it, expands in an ever faster pace its disintegrating action on all nations of the earth and on all social levels. I do not need to explain in any more detail that after its victory not only all the most precious treasures of our culture would vanish, but — which is even worse — also any prospects at a better future.
-Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck
antialias_physorg
4.2 / 5 (16) Jun 05, 2013
When only the govt has the guns, what are the victims going to do?

I think this is something that most US citizens don't understand (and I can relate,as I wouldn't understand this, either, if I hadn't lived in the US for a few years). It's a difference in mindset.

We're not afraid of our police forces. They're here to help us. We're not afraid of our governments (yes - we may disagree with policies and sometimes we get mad at them on issues)...but for the most part we do know that they are being kept in check by the prospect of losing power to an alternative party (in the US Republicans and Democrats only really differ in name - not in effected policy. They are not really 'alternatives')
The culture of fear and paranoia isn't as prevalent in Europe as in the US.

Democracy still somewhat works here, so: Meh. We don't have the feeling that we are 'victims'.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (14) Jun 05, 2013
We don't have the feeling that we are 'victims'.

Because you are all victims of the state.
You don't know anything different.
Some do. A German family was accepted into the USA for asylum because they could not home school their children.
antialias_physorg
4.2 / 5 (15) Jun 05, 2013
I do not need to explain in any more detail that after its victory...

Yep, because you can't.
Religion doesn't have a monopoly on cultural treasures.

BTW: having fun with your voting hissy-fit? You've been at it for over a week now and haven't accomplished much (as if I or anyone cares about votes). It's just a hoot imagining your sad life as you dig through years and years of my posts just to downvote them.

Yeah...'advocate of truth'. By ballot stuffing. Hypocrit much?
How's it feel when you demonstrate to YOURSELF for such a long time that your life and your professed ideals are a lie?

Sometimes i just can't believe what kind of losers hang out on the internet.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (13) Jun 05, 2013
" "The court ignored mountains of evidence that homeschoolers are harshly fined and that custody of their children is gravely threatened – something most people would call persecution. This is what the Romeikes will suffer if they are sent back to Germany," he stressed."
http://www.christ...l-95893/
Yes, you are all victims and don't know it.
antialias_physorg
3.9 / 5 (14) Jun 05, 2013
A German family was accepted into the USA for asylum because they could not home school their children.

You have to understand that the school system here is far superior to the US system (I had the (mis)fortune to sample both. The 2 years in a US highschool were equivalent to 1 year in a german highschool)...there is no reason to go for home schooling as there may be in the US.

School is also considered an important social/integrative experience here - which home schooling cannot deliver.
kochevnik
4.3 / 5 (12) Jun 06, 2013
by using it to justify policy or merely getting on people's nerves by prosetilyzing

But it's ok for atheists to use their faith to promote socialism and get on the nerves, and backs, of those who want the state to leave them alone?
Are you saying that my dog, which doesn't believe in your gawd, is also a socialist ryggie?

Why would anyone hate anyone else just because they pray?

Prayer is pretty much the most non-offensive one as religious practices go.
Or the crhistopath senator in Arizona who chastised a fellow senator for not praying because he is an atheist? Is insanity a requirement today for US political office?
DavidW
1 / 5 (12) Jun 06, 2013

Religion doesn't have a monopoly on cultural treasures.


Spoken exactly like a man who has never experienced anything really painful, has lost complete touch with empathy and compassion, that is so buried in lies that their own ego causes them to betray all life on this planet at this critical moment in history.

You have betrayed all life on this planet at this very important time. Your comments and understanding lack foundation in the truth. Until you clean up your act you are not be trusted on anything.
DavidW
1 / 5 (14) Jun 06, 2013
And antialias,

If I were behaving as you and someone else saw how out of line my behavior was I would want them to vote me down. It's vote. That's all it is.

Back to your comment:

Well, I'm one of those atheists that think religious people are mentally deranged.


Well, that's not a very nice thing to say to the men and women of faith that are currently bleeding out to protect the freedom of the general public that we may solve the worlds problems. The actual seriousness of the situation is something you clearly have never laid eyes upon long enough to sink in. Seriously, you sound like 9 year old in a video game chat.

kochevnik
4.1 / 5 (14) Jun 06, 2013

Religion doesn't have a monopoly on cultural treasures.
Spoken exactly like a man who has never experienced anything really painful, has lost complete touch with empathy and compassion, that is so buried in lies that their own ego causes them to betray all life on this planet at this critical moment in history.
Non Sequitur. Religion is a charlatan that makes promises and delivers on none. In practical terms religion is merely a system of judgements to divide insiders from outsiders: No different than a cult
Well, that's not a very nice thing to say to the men and women of faith that are currently bleeding out to protect the freedom of the general public that we may solve the worlds problems.
For someone purporting to care about truth you seem to care far more about the feelings of some christ-psychotics
DavidW
1 / 5 (14) Jun 06, 2013
Religion is a charlatan that makes promises and delivers on none.


Truth and Life are the Way. That's a promise.
Truth and Life have always saved the world.
Truth and Life save the world today.
Only Truth and Life can ever save the word.

Seems like a solid promise completely based in hard reality to me.

As man, we cannot get to the truthful God without both, Life AND Truth.

Sounds like another rock solid observation of reality.

As ridiculous as, many to most, of the statements people of religious faith make, because of contradiction and hypocrisy that are easily observed, the things that they are truthfully correct about are still truthful, even if the rest of their explanation falls short. These are ripples of necessity of the past in people today. For if they did not have faith and believe, the environment would not have been ready and deeply rooted so that today, at this critical time in human history, we can logically understand that Truth and Life are most important.
antialias_physorg
4.3 / 5 (16) Jun 06, 2013
If I were behaving as you and someone else saw how out of line my behavior was I would want them to vote me down.

Voting without reading/responding? Researching old posts to downvote? That's your excuse? Really?

Well, that's not a very nice thing to say to the men and women of faith

Erm. Ok, this is also pretty inconsistent by you: Either you want truth - or you want people to not speak truth. Can't have it both ways (and by the way you vote you certainly give the impression that you don't want people to speak the truth).
It's very clear that the notion that religious people are deranged is an (my) opinion.

Unless you want to play dictator...

out to protect the freedom of the general public that we may solve the worlds problems.

Well, since I think it's the religious people that CAUSE the world's problems and try to curb people's freedoms (as evidenced by their actions in e.g. the ME and the US) we'll have to disagree on that one.
VendicarE
4.5 / 5 (16) Jun 06, 2013
Published in the "Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion"

One wonders what is published in the Journal for the scientific study of witchcraft.

I read that in the Journal for the scientific study of the Easter Bunny, 5 out of 4 believers, plant at least one of their easter eggs in an attempt to grow their own easter egg tree.

ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Jun 06, 2013
Are you saying that my dog, which doesn't believe in your gawd, i

You can talk to dogs?

School is also considered an important social/integrative experience here

Of course it is. It is the Prussian way exported to the US and promoted by Horace Mann. Prior to Prussian indoctrination, US education was NOT state indoctrination and I is interesting that driving force of education in the USA, and in Europe for centuries was the Catholic Church and Protestants.
The Puritans required families to teach reading to their children so they could read a Bible. Harvard and Yale and other major institutions were founded by religious groups.
So anti prefers his socialist state indoctrination. No wonder Germans were so easily swayed into so many wars.
antialias_physorg
4 / 5 (13) Jun 06, 2013
and I is interesting that driving force of education in the USA, and in Europe for centuries was the Catholic Church and Protestants.

Are you referring to the dark ages?

The upkeep of an education system is the resonsibility of the state. And we DO have a niggling little thing in our constitution where it says something about 'separation of church and state'.
(I know you do, too. But for some reason I haven't figured out yet why it's never enforced anywhere in the US...seeing as the people in the US usually get their knickers in a bunch whenever there's something 'unconstitutional' going on).

Problem is that if we let churches run schools we have to allow ALL churches to run schools - because there's then no rationale by which one could let, say, a christian church operate a school while forbidding a muslim mosque to operate one.

...and the operation of madrassas/christian schools is a pandora's box we, as a society, don't want to open.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Jun 06, 2013
Are you referring to the dark ages?

No, but since you mentioned it, monks and monasteries became institutes of higher learning after the fall of the Roman Empire.
"Did you know that America's oldest and most venerated colleges and universities like Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth were founded by the Puritans?
Read more at http://www.wnd.co...QIJxj.99
Problem is that if we let churches run schools

Who is 'we'?
Whose responsibility is it to educate children? The state or the parents?
Sweden provides vouchers for students and parents can choose where to send their children.
Home schools and charter schools allow parents a choice over union controlled, govt schools, which is in some places are trying to force students to cross dress.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.3 / 5 (12) Jun 06, 2013
The upkeep of an education system is the resonsibility of the state. And we DO have a niggling little thing in our constitution where it says something about 'separation of church and state'.
(I know you do, too. But for some reason I haven't figured out yet why it's never enforced anywhere in the US...
So why does the german state enforce and collect the mandatory tithe for religionists? I dont see much daylight there.
No, but since you mentioned it, monks and monasteries became institutes of higher learning after the fall of the Roman Empire.
-Where only the rich and the clergy could attend. The rest (95% or so) of the pop were illiterate peasants.

Rome had a much higher literacy rate than medieval europe. The church kept the people ignorant.
antialias_physorg
3.6 / 5 (12) Jun 06, 2013
So why does the german state enforce and collect the mandatory tithe for religionists?

That's actually been bugging quite a few people.

When the EU formed every country was granted an exception. France got 'cultural exception' (whatever that means). The UK got 'monetary exception' (keeping the pound). Germany got 'religious exception' - which allows the church to gather a tax of those registered to their denomination (go figure).

It sorta backfired on them, though. There are many people who are just born into families that are only marginally religious. And you sorta get the religious affiliation of your parents whether you want to or not. But due to the tax a lot of those 'religion...meh' people have opted to drop their affiliation as soon as they start earning (i.e. as soon as they have to pay the tax).

The state keeps a part of that tax for the effort to collect it. And only a few churches (catholics, jews, unitarians, protestants) actually collect this tax.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.6 / 5 (14) Jun 06, 2013
"Did you know that America's oldest and most venerated colleges and universities like Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth were founded by the Puritans?
Did you know at the time EVERYBODY had to be religious in order to avoid persecution and get anywhere at all in life?

You keep bringing this up as if being a xian back then was optional. IT WASNT. The fact that all the successful people and institutions happened to profess your religion, is because the irreligious were not ALLOWED to be so.

Every time you repeat these facts of yours it only reestablishes how religious dominance means bigotry.
antialias_physorg
4.1 / 5 (14) Jun 06, 2013
Who is 'we'?

We the people.

Religions are already causing much of the division in this world. They aren't particularly known to be forward thinking.
Germany doesn't have resources - our only resources are the people and their innovativeness.

If we had religious schools things wouldn't go well. Prayer hasn't really helped anyone achieve anything (least of all innovation). We need critical/sceptical and above all curious people. Religion doesn't allow for any of that.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.3 / 5 (12) Jun 06, 2013
a lot of those 'religion...meh' people have opted to drop their affiliation as soon as they start earning (i.e. as soon as they have to pay the tax)
Right. Which may well be why the laws are there to begin with, to discourage religious participation.
The state keeps a part of that tax for the effort to collect it
-and this is a clever backhanded way of taxing the church.

But religions ought to be taxed directly. I mean, at the very best only one of them can be the one god approves of. So until they can reach a consensus on whichever one that is, they all should have to pay.

Im sure god will provide suitable recompense for the ones he really loves. Right ryggy?

"Tax them all. Let god sort them out."
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (12) Jun 06, 2013
We the people.

So 50% + 1 can forcibly indoctrinate the rest.
Religions are already causing much of the division in this world.

Socialism is a religion? It's state power causing divisions, but then the state sympathizers would say it was those not willing to by tyrannized by the state that are causing the division. A US congressman (D) from WA said as much about the state persecution of conservatives.
Prayer hasn't really helped anyone achieve anything

Really? Germany and Germans still exist even though they have committed so many atrocities in the past century.
We need critical/sceptical and above all curious people. Religion doesn't allow for any of that.

Of course it does.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.3 / 5 (12) Jun 06, 2013
Really? Germany and Germans still exist even though they have committed so many atrocities in the past century
Yes hitler was a roman catholic and so he was very familiar with joshuas genocidal escapades in palestine. Both coveted a holy land in the east that their god told them was theirs by right of birth.

Only difference was that joshua wasnt real. Hitler was. The people who wrote your book only intended to tell people like hitler how to conquer and obliterate using FAITH as a rationalizing tool.
DavidW
1 / 5 (13) Jun 06, 2013

Well, since I think it's the religious people that CAUSE the world's problems and try to curb people's freedoms (as evidenced by their actions in e.g. the ME and the US) we'll have to disagree on that one.


Once again, you spoke without admitting truth is real and important. The evidence is in your comment above where you, once again, attempt to place yourself above the truth.

The world's problems that are preventable, are caused by lies: NOT FOLLOWING THE TRUTH.

Whether the lies come from a religion, a corporation, a government, or even a teaching institution. Wow. It's right in your face and still you do not attempt to have any honor or self respect.
antialias_physorg
4.1 / 5 (14) Jun 07, 2013
you spoke without admitting truth is real and important.

Maybe that is because I think it's not real (it's an abstract concept - like 'zero' or 'infinity' or 'beauty') and therefore not important?

So there's no real issue of placing myself 'above' (or next to or below) it.

The world's problems that are preventable, are caused by lies

I agree. I just happen to think that religion (and the stance you take on 'truth') is a lie.
Note that I don't think that you are intentionally lying. I do think that those that believe may truly believe that what they think is right. But since they can't show the goods I think they're wrong in following an unsupportable belief.

It's right in your face and still you do not attempt to have any honor or self respect.

My self respect comes from being a consistent human being in word and deed. How about you? Judging from your actions on this board: No way.

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (12) Jun 07, 2013
My self respect comes from being a consistent human being in word and deed.

Consistent doing what YOU believe to be true?
After all, you do support state socialism for some reason that cannot be in support of the rights of individuals.
antialias_physorg
4.1 / 5 (13) Jun 07, 2013
After all, you do support state socialism

I support a mix of socialism and capitalism. I know of no fully socialistic state. That's just a red herring you keep bringing up.

There are some rights the individuals have and some they shouldn't (i.e. rights that should be given to the state whether the individual agrees or not). All nations do that. They're called laws.

If that is your definition of 'socialism' then the only thing that isn't socialist is pure anarchy.

TheGhostofOtto1923
3.6 / 5 (14) Jun 07, 2013
Hi dave
The world's problems that are preventable, are caused by lies: NOT FOLLOWING THE TRUTH
Has anybody told you to STFU today? No? Is that an honest answer?
Whether the lies come from a religion
Yeah YOUR religion. You know, the one that claims your all-knowing god wrote a book about things which we KNOW never happened?

Before you peddle your truth crap around here you ought to explain why you believe in lies yourself.
DavidW
1 / 5 (12) Jun 07, 2013
Maybe that is because I think it's not real (it's an abstract concept - like 'zero' or 'infinity' or 'beauty') and therefore not important?


I understand. You say you don't believe we are alive. You say you don't believe we can't change our past. You don't have a real or factual foundation in your thought processes and as a result, should not be stating your opinion.

What means something is truthful(real) suffering caused by lies.

The world's problems that are preventable, are caused by lies
I agree



So, you agree and say lies are truthfully real, but you say you don't believe the truth is real.

My self respect comes from being a consistent human being in word and deed.


Exactly, which is why I called you on not having self-respect. Believing in lies, but not truth, is inconsistent with reality. More specifically, this train of thought supports only ego and tries to remove the ONLY foundation on which the preventable suffering can be prevented.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.3 / 5 (12) Jun 07, 2013
What means something is truthful(real) suffering caused by lies
-So this must be why your jebus had to suffer on the cross, to save a world full of liars yes?

But how could he do this when he himself is a LIE?
http://www.youtub...-BcN8u8Q

-Yes jesus was only a later iteration of a long line of identical godmen. The evolution of a very successful form factor, each one more effective at mesmerizing and deceiving the people than the last.

I think that in order to save the world now it is time for jesus to confess his own sins no?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Jun 07, 2013
There are some rights the individuals have

Like what and are they GRANTED by the state or are they supposed to be PROTECTED by the state?
I know of no fully socialistic state

DPRK qualifies.
kochevnik
4.2 / 5 (10) Jun 08, 2013
I know of no fully socialistic state
DPRK qualifies.
No, it doesn't. DPRK is far right-wing. The epitome of plutocratic cronyism, not socialism. China is comfortably capitalist and communist because they are the same thing at the core. They compliment each-other
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Jun 08, 2013
I know of no fully socialistic state
DPRK qualifies.
No, it doesn't. DPRK is far right-wing. The epitome of plutocratic cronyism, not socialism. China is comfortably capitalist and communist because they are the same thing at the core. They compliment each-other

Socialism is state control of private property. The state in DPRK controls ALL property, same with Cuba.
And in a Regulatory State, most must get permission from the state before using their private property, also socialism.
ValeriaT
1 / 5 (9) Jun 08, 2013
Entrepreneurs pray more
Entrepreneurs have a good reason to pray often - whereas the democrats are payed from mandatory fees often and they've their existence ensured in this way.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Jun 08, 2013
And when parents have a choice and the initiative, home schools beat govt schools:

"Recent studies laud homeschoolers' academic success, noting their significantly higher ACT-Composite scores as high schoolers and higher grade point averages as college students. Yet surprisingly, the average expenditure for the education of a homeschooled child, per year, is $500 to $600, compared to an average expenditure of $10,000 per child, per year, for public school students. "
http://www.breitb...-Schools
kochevnik
4.3 / 5 (11) Jun 08, 2013
Socialism is state control of private property. The state in DPRK controls ALL property, same with Cuba.
And in a Regulatory State, most must get permission from the state before using their private property, also socialism.
Earlier you admitted your definition of socialism is whatever you think it is at the moment. Socialism is a system to open economic activity to the citizenry, instead of relegating it to a few hundred plutocrats which ALWAYS happens in free markets. It's placing the value of humanity above the value of money, the later being a questionable human invention at best. Different money systems like bitcoin or gold or colonial scrpt may better ensure a more egalitarian system AUTOMATICALLY. Once thing proven is that zionist funny-money ensures totalitarianism, which zionists favor because they think you are less than cattle

And yes property much be regulated. Property has firestorms, grows insects, and nuclear nuclear plant on land need a license
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (12) Jun 08, 2013
Earlier you admitted your definition of socialism is whatever you think it is at the moment.

I have always used Mises' definition of socialism from Socialism. It also coincides with Bastiat's definition.
Socialism is state control of private property.
Socialism is a system to open economic activity to the citizenry,

You are saying your definition of socialism is free market capitalism?
. It's placing the value of humanity above the value of money,

Socialists MUST devalue human individuals as socialism must violate the property rights of individuals to redistribute wealth. So it it the socialist that values money more than humans.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (12) Jun 08, 2013
Free market capitalism makes socialism inevitable.

"Production in a socialist economy is therefore "planned" or "coordinated", and does not suffer from the business cycle inherent to capitalism."
http://en.wikiped...conomics

Capitalism has no way to accommodate economic cycles except by anticipating them and feeding upon them. What better way of running your competitors into the ground?
Socialists MUST devalue human individuals
Capitalism obviously must devalue their competitors as it is only an expression of tribalism, us vs them.

All is fair in love, war, and the marketplace.

Ryggy naively assumes that competition naturally forces competitors to make better products. But it is easier eliminate your opponents than out-compete them.

'Why should some clever young upstart be allowed to destroy your family business?' says don corleone.

'Why should some clever young upstart be allowed to destroy your family business?' says the guys down at the country club.
kochevnik
3.8 / 5 (11) Jun 08, 2013
Earlier you admitted your definition of socialism is whatever you think it is at the moment.
I have always used Mises' definition of socialism from Socialism. It also coincides with Bastiat's definition. Socialism is state control of private property.

No earlier you wrote
@ryggie: "I use socialist because it covers all the bases: fascists, 'liberals', 'progressives', statists, crony capitalists, and anyone who supports using the power of the state to control the property rights of the individual."
Socialism is a system to open economic activity to the citizenry,

You are saying your definition of socialism is free market capitalism? No I'm stating that free-market capitalism is nothing but theft of public assets by emerging plutocrats and robber barons. No different than leaving gold on your doorstep and expecting it to still be there in the evening, or something of equal value in it's place
Neinsense99
3.9 / 5 (11) Jun 08, 2013
And when parents have a choice and the initiative, home schools beat govt schools:

"Recent studies laud homeschoolers' academic success, noting their significantly higher ACT-Composite scores as high schoolers and higher grade point averages as college students. Yet surprisingly, the average expenditure for the education of a homeschooled child, per year, is $500 to $600, compared to an average expenditure of $10,000 per child, per year, for public school students. "
http://www.breitb...-Schools

Did they include the religious school that produced this abomination of a 4th grade 'science' exam? http://www.snopes...test.asp
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (12) Jun 08, 2013
"I use socialist because it covers all the bases: fascists, 'liberals', 'progressives', statists, crony capitalists, and anyone who supports using the power of the state to control the property rights of the individual."


State control of private property sums it up quite well.

abomination of a 4th grade 'science' exam?

Please defend the abomination of union run govt schools around the country that graduates children who can't read and show up on Jay Leno's Jaywalking hall of fame making fools of themselves.
"A North Carolina mother had her son arrested this week for taking her Pop-Tarts without permission, police report."
http://www.thesmo...t-675431
Both likely attended govt public schools.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Jun 08, 2013
"Nearly three decades after A Nation at Risk, the groundbreaking report by the National Commission on Excellence in Education, warned of "a rising tide of mediocrity that threatens our very future as a Nation and a people," the gains we have made in improving our schools are negligible—even though we have doubled our spending (in inflation-adjusted dollars) on K–12 public education. On America's latest exams (the National Assessment of Educational Progress), one-third or fewer of eighth-grade students were proficient in math, science, or reading. "
"even when making a lifetime tenure commitment, under New York law you could not consider a teacher's impact on student learning."
http://www.theatl...08497/2/
Ignore the 8000 ton gorilla called govt-union schools.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (12) Jun 08, 2013
How about this abominable exam:
"Ms. Parks admitted to Mr. Hyde that she was one of seven teachers — nicknamed "the chosen" — who sat in a locked windowless room every afternoon during the week of state testing, raising students' scores by erasing wrong answers and making them right. "
http://www.nytime...amp;_r=0
"The problem is that a monopoly always protects itself. The teachers' unions and many Democratic politicians, who receive their campaign contributions, oppose school choice, which would improve not only public schools, but also the chances of poor and minority children to have a better life"
" Parents should decide where their children go to school."

Read more: http://www.foxnew...VeXqXEc1
kochevnik
3.8 / 5 (10) Jun 08, 2013
"I use socialist because it covers all the bases: fascists, 'liberals', 'progressives', statists, crony capitalists, and anyone who supports using the power of the state to control the property rights of the individual."


State control of private property sums it up quite well.
Much of the USA is public land. The public has the right to benefit and enjoy it, not your crony thieving zionist libertarian fuckers
powerup1
5 / 5 (6) Jun 08, 2013
Ask those atheists who hate religion and the individuals who have faith in God.

Well, I'm one of those atheists that think religious people are mentally deranged. But if the mentally deranged want to pray - so what?

As long as they don't let their belief influence any actions that affect anyone else (by using it to justify policy or merely getting on people's nerves by prosetilyzing) they're free to fantasize about talking to someone else as much a they want to.

People should be free to indulge their fantasies in their minds.


I'm an atheist, but I don't view religion as a totally negative thing. I can see how praying can relieve stress and help a person persevere when things get tough. It can take you a long way when you believe that someone (real or imagined) has your back and that you are not alone in what you are doing. I think belief in a higher power might have some kind of evolutionary survival purpose, that is why it is so present in our species.
djr
5 / 5 (9) Jun 08, 2013
Please defend the abomination of union run govt schools around the country.

Both of my children attended state run schools - and received a good education. My wife and I were the primary educators in their lives - but the school provided a level of resources we would have had difficulty finding. My wife is a very hard working teacher - at an inner city school in Oklahoma. The problem is multifaceted - and will only be solved when we decide as a culture to truly value education - over current values of militarism, pop culture etc. Every year my wife has very difficult students who disrupt the classroom process. I wonder how Rygg would propose dealing with crack babies, who live in broken, poverty ridden homes - dad is in jail, and mom is in and out of meth programs - other relatives try to pick up the pieces - but the child's life is so fragmented. It is so easy to throw around simplistic bullshit, instead of understanding the real complexity of the issues.
VendicarE
4 / 5 (8) Jun 08, 2013
"I wonder how Rygg would propose dealing with crack babies, who live in broken, poverty ridden homes" - djr

RyggTard wants more of them.

You see, freedom means freedom to produce crack babies.

VendicarE
4.1 / 5 (9) Jun 08, 2013
From RyggTard's own reference...

"Beverly L. Hall, who was one of 35 Atlanta educators indicted Friday by a Fulton County grand jury."

Government corruption and deceit in a Republican Red State? Gosh... no surprise there. Republican states are invariably corrupt since Republicans are invariably liars.

The primary failure here of course is the Republican demand that only standardized texts be used to evaluate students and that schools with poorly performing students should be punished for the social ills (created by more Republican Corruption and ignorance), of the surrounding community.
VendicarE
4.3 / 5 (11) Jun 08, 2013
RyggTard's reference...

"the gains we have made in improving our schools are negligible—even though we have doubled our spending (in inflation-adjusted dollars) on K–12 public education."

This is entirely expected since the problem with American education is the spectacular failure of American Culture.

Teachers have been telling Moron Republicans this for years, and the Republican/Libertarian response was more standardized testing rather than taking steps to stop the Republican /Randite/Libertarian campaign of National destruction.
VendicarE
4.1 / 5 (10) Jun 08, 2013
"Please defend the abomination of union run govt schools around the country that graduates children who can't read and show up on Jay Leno's Jaywalking hall of fame making fools of themselves." - RyggTard

According to the Libertarian Party Platform, forced education is a violation of the rights of Children.

More interestingly, according to the same party platform, engaging in child prostitution is the right of ever child.

The failure of American Education is principally a result of the decades long plan by Republicans and Libertarian/Randites to destroy their own nation.
VendicarE
4.1 / 5 (9) Jun 08, 2013
"I have always used Mises' definition of socialism from Socialism." - RyggTard

Only a first rate fool accepts such a definition from a second rate fool.

zaxxon451
5 / 5 (5) Jun 09, 2013
The problem is multifaceted - and will only be solved when we decide as a culture to truly value education - over current values of militarism, pop culture etc.


Well said. We don't have an education problem. The issues arising in education are merely symptoms of our society's disease. The Spectacle lulls us to sleep with blissful dreams of fulfilled lives if we could only consume a little more. But fulfillment is always another purchase away... and then another.

This dream, better known as The American Dream, has always been about consumption and never about anything worthwhile. It speaks to a dark place in human nature, far removed from altruism or true citizenship. It's dead now anyway, and I don't miss it. It was always a myth promoted to keep the wage slaves productive.

"The more he identifies with the dominant images of need, the less he understands his own life and his own desires." -- Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Jun 09, 2013
The American Dream, has always been about consumption and never about anything worthwhile.

Where were you 'educated'?
The American Dream was quite succinctly state in the the preamble to the US Constitution:
" secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity,"
Liberty is so worthwhile, millions have died defendeding Liberty and trying to escape Tyranny for Liberty.

- and will only be solved when we decide as a culture to truly value education

Let's start with the teachers and their unions who do NOT value education, but value money, political power, and a comfortable retirement.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Jun 09, 2013
Much of the USA is public land. The public has the right to benefit and enjoy it, not your crony thieving zionist libertarian fuckers


A typical 'tolerant' response from a 'liberal', 'progressive' socialist.

crony thieving

You mean the Regulatory State that sucks taxes from private, wealth creating oil fields in ND?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.3 / 5 (12) Jun 09, 2013
Actually crack babies is a misnomer as cocaine has been shown recently to have little effect on developing fetuses. If crack whores receive sufficient nutrition their children can be expected to be healthy.

Except of course if they are drinkers or smokers, in which case their children can be expected to exhibit malformity and abhorrent behaviors such as compulsivity, attention deficit, sociopathy, and severely decreased intellectual capacity.

Such children, by and large, sooner or later, end up in the prison system.

But tobacco and alcohol, as well as the legal and penal systems, generate enormous profits and this is also a great benefit to society. So perhaps it is a wash.

Up until quite recently substandard intellects were REQUIRED to do the tedious, repetitive, mind-numbing jobs that normal people could not tolerate.

If everybody could get into harvard who would be driving our buses and picking up our garbage? The answer will soon be robots.
kochevnik
3.6 / 5 (9) Jun 09, 2013
Much of the USA is public land. The public has the right to benefit and enjoy it, not your crony thieving zionist libertarian fuckers


A typical 'tolerant' response from a 'liberal', 'progressive' socialist.
Coming from a wannabe plunderer and economic rapist, that's a compliment!

You mean the Regulatory State that sucks taxes from private, wealth creating oil fields in ND?
That wealth is property of the PEOPLE, not the crony capitalist thieves who suck the land dry through backdoor influence peddling (Your "free market")
djr
5 / 5 (9) Jun 09, 2013
Let's start with the teachers and their unions who do NOT value education, but value money, political power, and a comfortable retirement.

This is a typical blanket statement, put out by our resident ideologue - who is thus unable to think independently. See - no response to the more complex questions of how to change a society that seems hell bent on self destruction. Many of our teachers are very committed people - trying very hard to make a difference - in a pretty f**cked up world. You can read many stories of individuals who credit their success in life - despite very difficult circumstances - to some very committed teachers - who gave them some support. The teachers union here in Oklahoma is pretty bankrupt - but again - functioning in a very dysfunctional world. Throwing around ideological terms like 'liberal' solves nothing. The solutions are coming from creative individuals - who are courageous enough to question the current culture.
zaxxon451
5 / 5 (8) Jun 09, 2013
Ryggesogn2, you speak the language of the slave. You are bound by the shackles of myth, nationalism, tradition, consumption, spectacle, and fear. Shackles of iron are preferable to those you willingly place upon yourself. At least the African slaves of the Old South knew the evil of their Masters. You welcome bondage and fight against those who would be free.

You may have the last word if you wish. I am not interested a conversation with slaves who do not wish to be free.
kochevnik
3.9 / 5 (7) Jun 09, 2013
Actually crack babies is a misnomer as cocaine has been shown recently to have little effect on developing fetuses. If crack whores receive sufficient nutrition their children can be expected to be healthy.
The crack babies didn't disappear. They evolved. They quit coke and moved onto zionist funny money issued at 0% to insiders. They huddle close to those with access to 0% permanent loans from Bernanke as their mommas seldom strayed from their main man, the pimp. Bernanke is ensuring that young americans will be forced to sell their bodies on the streets and cubicles of America just to slide backwards less slowly, while the worthless 0% crack ponzi scheme held together by a zionist banking cartel makes up economic indicators like the Libor and the price of gold. One day soon the whole house of cards will come crashing down and the crack babies will die in hordes from withdrawal

It should make an interesting epic movie for future filmmakers
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Jun 09, 2013
This is a typical blanket statement, put out by our resident ideologue -

It's from a 'liberal' mugged by the reality of education unions.
"In short, politicians—especially Democratic politicians—generally do what the unions want. And the unions, in turn, are very clear about what that is. They want, first, happy members, so that those who run the unions get reelected; and, second, more members, so their power, money, and influence grow. As Albert Shanker, the late, iconic head of the UFT, once pointedly put it, "When schoolchildren start paying union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of schoolchildren." "
http://www.theatl...08497/2/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Jun 09, 2013
That wealth is property of the PEOPLE,

No, wealth is the property of PEOPLE, individual people, not 'the people'.
That's how the French revolution devolved into communism.
The 'Rights of Man' should have been 'The Rights of Men'.
The collective 'right' enables anyone who can gain control of power to usurp the individual rights of men in the name of 'man'.
When the sole purpose of the state is to protect the individual rights of men, then the collective 'rights of man' will be protected.
When the individual rights of men are violated by the socialists 'for the sake of man', Man is threatened along with the men whose rights are violated.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Jun 09, 2013
Throwing around ideological terms like 'liberal' solves nothing.

Of course it does. It describes the ways and means of the 'liberal' and helps others to see through this BS:
The solutions are coming from creative individuals - who are courageous enough to question the current culture.

I AM questioning the current culture of 'progressive' 'liberalism' which began over 100 years ago and is FAILING to improve the lives, liberty and property of individuals. But the current culture of govt mandated teacher unions is NOT failing to indoctrinate and destroy the wealth, liberty, property and hope for individuals.

TheGhostofOtto1923
3.2 / 5 (12) Jun 09, 2013
No, wealth is the property of people
-Yes, people fortunate and lucky enough to be born privileged and healthy enough, to have parents who didn't hobble them physically and intellectually by way of poverty and addiction, so that they were able to get educations and jobs which were simply not available to those less lucky.

The tribe shares it's wealth among ALL it's members. There is no us and them within the tribe. Those who can hunt and gather provide sustenance for those who cannot.

Big rygg wants to close the gate on fellow tribesmen. But of course, his religion has convinced him that they are not quite as human as he, and so are not quite as worthy.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Jun 09, 2013
have parents who didn't hobble them physically and intellectually by way of poverty and addiction,

And the welfare state/socialist 'tribe' bears no reprehensibility for keeping people dependent.
The tribe shares it's wealth among ALL it's members.

No it does not.
Those who can hunt and gather provide sustenance for those who cannot.

And must not sustain those who won't.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Jun 09, 2013
This is what the national 'tribe' must do?
"In the chapter on inflation, he condemns unequivocally artificial printing of money, which he sees as a form of drug administered by governments to citizens. Fiat money creates massive, distorting effect on the system of prices, the redistribution of income, and takes away the ability to control the loss in the purchasing power that the increase in prices generates."
" "if you are increasing the quantity of money, and you are not increasing the quantity of things which can be bought with money, you are only increasing the prices which are paid for them. And in time, if the increase in money continues, the whole system becomes a system without any meaning and really without any possible method of dealing with it."
http://www.thecom...c_crisis
djr
5 / 5 (6) Jun 09, 2013
"Throwing around ideological terms like 'liberal' solves nothing."

Rygg - "Of course it does. It describes the ways and means of the 'liberal' and helps others to see through this BS"

Rygg thinks that spamming a science web site with ideological taunts about liberals actually changes something. I think that Rygg should spend some time volunteering in an inner city school, or at a prison (I have done both) - to see how much difference it makes in the life of a gang member - to say "Obama is a liberal".

I prefer real, and more complex solutions - which is why I read a science web site. Perhaps developing my own business - and sharing the skills I am learning along the way - will allow me to be a part of the change that I want to see in the world.

Rygg says the culture is liberal. I wonder what part of the world Rygg lives in. Oklahoma is the most conservative, religious, uneducated part of the world I have ever seen. Of course I have never been to Afghanistan.
djr
5 / 5 (6) Jun 09, 2013
I have just done a little reading on this guy Mises - the one Rygg keeps quoting. Just what we need on a science web site - quotes from a philosopher and economist - an academic who had to be financially supported by wealthy benefactors.......
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.2 / 5 (11) Jun 10, 2013
No it does not.
Of course it does.

So rygg how do you distinguish between those who can't and those who won't?
increasing the quantity of money
-And if you are increasing the quantity of people without increasing the quantity of resources necessary to sustain them, doesn't this do the same thing? And how do you tell the difference? Faith?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Jun 10, 2013
I have just done a little reading on this guy Mises

What took you so long?
He developed the praxeology, applying science to economics.
" praxeological economics is the structure of logical implications of the fact that individuals act. This structure is built on the fundamental axiom of action, and has a few subsidiary axioms, such as that individuals vary and that human beings regard leisure as a valuable good. Any skeptic about deducing from such a simple base an entire system of economics, I refer to Mises's Human Action. Furthermore, since praxeology begins with a true axiom, A, all the propositions that can be deduced from this axiom must also be true. For if A implies B, and A is true, then B must also be true."
http://www.lewroc...d38.html
- an academic who had to be financially supported by wealthy benefactors.......

AGW 'academics' don't count?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Jun 10, 2013
I prefer real, and more complex solutions - which is why I read a science web site.

Science is motivated to de-complexify the world, not make it MORE complicated.
What's wrong with simple solutions? They are usually the most effective.
Oklahoma is the most conservative, religious, uneducated part of the world I have ever seen.

MOVE!
But, the people of OK will rebuild and not depend upon govt 'help'. Unlike New Orleans and New Jersey.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (10) Jun 10, 2013
MOVE!
Naw, MOVE was all killed when they dropped tgat incendiary bomb on their house dont you remember?
But, the people of OK will rebuild and not depend upon govt 'help'. Unlike New Orleans and New Jersey.
Naw you're still delusional.

"President Obama, who signed a disaster declaration for the area Monday night, promised Tuesday morning that federal disaster representatives already in place in Oklahoma will remain on the ground "beside them as long as it takes."  

"Our prayers are with the people of Oklahoma today," Mr. Obama said, speaking to the nation from the State Dining Room in the White House. He told state residents, "You will not travel that path [to recovery] alone. Your country will travel it with you, fueled by our faith in the Almighty and our faith in one another."

-NJ is still waiting. But I am sure Obama is praying for them as well. Allah is beneficent.
djr
5 / 5 (6) Jun 10, 2013
AGW 'academics' don't count?

Sure they do - which is why you wont find me spamming a science web site with quotes from philosophers and economists - that is your schtick - I think it is evidence of being unable to formulate your own thoughts.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Jun 10, 2013
AGW 'academics' don't count?

Sure they do - which is why you wont find me spamming a science web site with quotes from philosophers and economists - that is your schtick - I think it is evidence of being unable to formulate your own thoughts.


academic who had to be financially supported by wealthy benefactors..

AGW 'academics' are financially supported by wealthy benefactors.

Tesla was funded by a wealthy benefactor, Westinghouse, who invented the air-brake.
So the point is....
djr
5 / 5 (7) Jun 10, 2013
"MOVE!" You don't know how to understand a point. Where I live is my business. You were blathering on about a dominant liberal/progressive culture - I was pointing out that that is certainly not true for Oklahoma - I don't think it is true for the U.S. in general. Overall - a very religious, nationalistic, conservative culture in my view.

"But, the people of OK will rebuild and not depend upon govt 'help'" That is odd - i could have sworn FEMA was a gvt agency - they have set up a headquarters in Moore.
djr
5 / 5 (6) Jun 10, 2013
"So the point is...." The point is that this is a science web site - and you persistently hijack the comments section - with quotes from philosophers and economists. You have been very vocal about attacking academics from our liberal universities - and yet rather than have an independent thought of your own about the topics at hand - you very hypocritically cut and past quotes from an economist - who depended on wealthy benefactors. If you don't see the irony in that last sentence - there is no hope. I don't recall quoting any material from Tesla or Westinghouse.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Jun 10, 2013
"MOVE!" You don't know how to understand a point. Where I live is my business.

The stop bitching about it and insulting your neighbors and those taxpaying benefactors that pay your salary.

You were blathering on about a dominant liberal/progressive culture - I was pointing out that that is certainly not true for Oklahoma - I don't think it is true for the U.S. in general. Overall - a very religious, nationalistic, conservative culture in my view.

"But, the people of OK will rebuild and not depend upon govt 'help'" That is odd - i could have sworn FEMA was a gvt agency - they have set up a headquarters in Moore.

Do they have a choice?
And if you can't see that the US has been a 'progressive' socialist nation for the past 100 years you are blind or a fellow traveler.
And it DOES affect science as the state, the benefactor, funds work the state wants to promote.
BTW, do the Cherokee have a reservation in OK? Or are subject to the BIA?
djr
5 / 5 (8) Jun 10, 2013
The stop bitching about it and insulting your neighbors and those taxpaying benefactors that pay your salary.

You still don't understand the point - you were claiming that the U.S. has a dominant liberal/progressive culture - and I was countering it. Again - where I live is my business - and for my reasons. I was just once again proving that you don't know what you are talking about. And the main point is - that a science web site is the wrong venue to push your political agenda - it is ignorant and rude of you.

"Do they have a choice?" Of course they do - take the funds or not - their choice - either way - you are still wrong.

"And if you can't see that the US has been a 'progressive' socialist nation for the past 100 years you are blind or a fellow traveler."

Stop changing the subject - the U.S. CULTURE is not a liberal/progressive culture - it is comparatively a conservative, religious, nationalistic culture - I will argue that one with you all day and win.

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (11) Jun 10, 2013
I was countering it.

With what? Where is your evidence? Where is the data to back up you opinion?
a science web site is the wrong venue to push your political agenda

Then tell it phys.org. THEY are pushing a political agenda every day as are the AGWites.
IPCC is a POLITICAL orgainzation.
Stop changing the subject - the U.S. CULTURE is not a liberal/progressive culture -

And the govt is a socialist govt in spite of a generally conservative society.
djr
5 / 5 (7) Jun 10, 2013
Then tell it phys.org. THEY are pushing a political agenda every day as are the AGWites.
IPCC is a POLITICAL orgainzation

No they are not - they are simply posting articles reporting on science research. You are sensing a bias - which is simply a bias in favor of reality - science has a funny way of doing that. Either way - it is ignorant and rude of you to push your political agenda on their web site - especially as this is not a political forum. If you have the misguided notion that they are pushing a political agenda - and you don't agree with it - surely it would be more respectful to leave us alone - and move on to a site you agree with. Or is your objective to be offensive?

Thrasymachus
3 / 5 (4) Jun 10, 2013
Seriously people, stop feeding the trolls. Downvote them, click the "Report abuse" button, and move on. I mean, really djr, you're talking to a guy who who responds with cherry-picked streams of out-of-context quotes put out by mostly highly biased organizations, whose only personal contributions are gross mischaracterizations and outright insults. You're only giving him an excuse to do it more.
kochevnik
4 / 5 (8) Jun 10, 2013
I mean, really djr, you're talking to a guy who who responds with cherry-picked streams of out-of-context quotes put out by mostly highly biased organizations, whose only personal contributions are gross mischaracterizations and outright insults.
You just characterized the American electorate
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Jun 10, 2013
this is not a political forum

The title of this 'science' article is "Entrepreneurs pray more, see God as personal, researchers find".
Why do you think this article has anything to do with science?
Science is a methodology. The topic being studied is economics (entrepreneurs) and religion.
Socialism is state control of economics and is officially atheist, therefore socialism is quite relavent to this discussion as well as AGW.
AGWites promote political/economic 'solutions', taxes and laws and socialist policies to GiVE taxpayers money to businesses the socialists favor (Solyndra, GM, ...) , to 'save the planet', NOT technical, solutions like getting out of the way of sealed nuclear reactors and NOT dealing with nuclear waste.
'Science' today is quite political. Is that too complex for you dj?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Jun 10, 2013
"Profits are not financial...they're social. Everybody profits from industry. Politicians don't understand profits because they can pay bills out of taxation."
Henry Ford, 1936

And academics, who live off their benefactors (the state or wealthy alumni) know little of profit and industry for if they did, they would be in industry earning profit.
Thrasymachus
1 / 5 (2) Jun 10, 2013
See?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Jun 10, 2013
you were claiming that the U.S. has a dominant liberal/progressive culture

NO, I am saying the govt is 'progressive'/socialist. YOU said it was the culture.
Society is not the state.
This is what the socialist US is doing:
"President Barack Obama says Democrats "don't want to tax all businesses out of business.""
http://www.cnsnew...business
Just the ones that don't support the regime.
djr
5 / 5 (6) Jun 10, 2013
'Science' today is quite political. Is that too complex for you dj?

Science is not political for me - I am simply interested in the knowledge - and the potential for the future of humanity. Of course - I am in the minority - I understand that. You are in the majority Rygg - which is why we are in such a bottle neck. I have hope that we will get through this bottleneck - we will just have to go around the luddites, and the thugs (read Ryggy).
antialias_physorg
3.9 / 5 (7) Jun 11, 2013
'Science' today is quite political.

I dunno. I've worked in science - and if there's one thing that scientists never discuss (neither in conferences nor at conference dinners) it's politics.
There are far more interesting (and important) things to talk about on those occasions.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Jun 11, 2013
Science is not political for me - I am simply interested in the knowledge -

Well aren't you special.
Reality is something quite different.
Like the EPA colluding with political groups, secretly, to make laws based on their 'science'.
""EPA is instead making environmental policy on its own and with special interest groups and then forcing the states to comply with these new policies. This is far from what Congress had in mind," a conservative environmental lawyer close to the issue told The Daily Caller News Foundation."

Read more: http://dailycalle...VuXnvqux
If the science is 'sound', why must the EPA and 'liberal' group collude in secret?
Why did Mann refuse to release all the data he used to fabricate his hockey stick?
And not to mention the billions of dollars wasted on 'science' that is not ready for the market, Solyndra, et al come to mind.
djr
5 / 5 (5) Jun 11, 2013
"Well aren't you special." perhaps. Your comment strikes me as pretty childish - fits the pattern. Don't we all see ourselves as special?

Interesting how you will always take a conversation about science - and make it political. And of course - politics is highly subjective. You could focus on Solyndra - or look at a success story such as Tesla. It seems to say a lot about you that you will focus on Solyndra. Elon Musk is a very courageous guy - who has defied the odds - and made a success of a start up car company. Next Gen batteries look close to production - and will take electric cars upwards and onwards. See what science can do if you focus on science - rather than politics?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Jun 11, 2013
You could focus on Solyndra - or look at a success story such as Tesla


Why shouldn't taxpayers be focused on where their socialist govt gives their hard earned tax dollars to crony capitalists?
Elon Musk is a very courageous guy

"Bankrupt Tesla CEO Buys $17 Million Mansion After Receiving $465 Million Taxpayer-Funded Bailout

(Breitbart) Taxpayers footed the bill for a $465 million loan to troubled electric carmaker Tesla as part of President Barack Obama's "green energy" stimulus. But Tesla's CEO Elon Musk is now riding high with the purchase of his new $17 million mansion.

Mr. Musk's 20,248-square-foot hilltop mansion boasts breathtaking views, a two-story library with rolling ladder, a home theater, and a five-car garage to house his taxpayer-subsidized, pricey Tesla vehicles."
http://sadhillnew...-bailout
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Jun 11, 2013
"While bankrupt GM, Chrysler and Fisker managers practically doubled their salaries via bonuses and benefits using taxpayer bailout funds from 2011, bankrupt Tesla Motors needed only 90 days to burn through $35 million of their Obama-awarded $465 million taxpayer-funded bailout.

Obama to Tesla CEO, "Now buy yourself a mansion, after you donate $100,000 to my re-election campaign, just like bankrupt Solyndra."

It must have been the internal CEO fighting and hemorrhaging bank account – from trying to sell a $92,000 electric car that costs $140,000 to 'produce' – that made Tesla Motors the perfect addition to Obama's money laundering portfolio…"
http://sadhillnew...-bailout
djr
5 / 5 (6) Jun 11, 2013
"Bankrupt Tesla CEO Buys $17 Million Mansion After Receiving $465 Million Taxpayer-Funded Bailout"

Your quote above indicates that Tesla motors went Bankrupt. Can you provide support for that information? I never thought I would see a professed libertarian - criticizing a capitalist for making money!! Tesla took a low interest loan from the Gvt, and paid it back early. I would have thought you would have applauded a capitalist - who took a risk - started a company - and provided employment for others. Guess I misunderstood.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Jun 11, 2013
"The proposal is frequently made that the government ought to assume the risks that are "too great for private industry." This means that bureaucrats should be permitted to take risks with the taxpayers' money that no one is willing to take with his own."
"Such a policy would lead to evils of many different kinds. It would lead to favoritism: to the making of loans to friends, or in return for bribes. It would inevitably lead to scandals. It would lead to recriminations whenever the taxpayers' money was thrown away on enterprises that failed. It would increase the demand for socialism: for, it would properly be asked, if the government is going to bear the risks, why should it not also get the profits?"
http://steshaw.or...6p2.html
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Jun 11, 2013
"The proposal for government loans to private individuals or projects, in brief sees B and forgets A. It sees the people into whose hands the capital is put; it forgets those who would otherwise have had it. It sees the project to which capital is granted; it forgets the projects from which capital is thereby withheld. It sees the immediate benefit to one group; it overlooks the losses to other groups, and the net loss to the community as a whole."
http://steshaw.or...6p2.html
By loaning OUR plundered wealth to Musk or Solyndra or.... it sucks capital out of the market that more conscientious, private investors would invest.
Musk is not a capitalist, he is a Crapitalist, a crony capitalist, aka socialist, and dj like him.
djr
4.8 / 5 (5) Jun 11, 2013
But I asked you to support your assertion about Tesla going bankrupt. Can you not read? (rhetorical). Just FYI - I don't care about your opinion of a government loan program - or the fact that you think that calling someone a socialist is an insult.
antialias_physorg
3.9 / 5 (8) Jun 12, 2013
or the fact that you think that calling someone a socialist is an insult[7q]
It's supposed to be? Huh. I always thought it was kind of praise.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Jun 12, 2013
or the fact that you think that calling someone a socialist is an insult[7q]
It's supposed to be? Huh. I always thought it was kind of praise.

It's a statement of fact.
If it's taken as an insult, that's your problem.
And if you are proud to be a socialist, plundering and redistributing the wealth of others, stand up and let the world know.
BTW, I can't find any data to show Tesla has declared bankruptcy.
" "I would like to thank the Department of Energy and the members of Congress and their staffs that worked hard to create the ATVM program, and particularly the American taxpayer from whom these funds originate," said Elon Musk. "I hope we did you proud.""
http://www.teslam...rs-early
Where's my share of the interest on the loan?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Jun 12, 2013
Progress:
"The accountability office interviewed applicants for the loan programs to further evaluate DOE's performance and found that "most applicants and manufacturers we spoke with told us that, currently, the costs of participating outweigh the benefits. "

Those costs include intangible ones, such as a "lengthy and burdensome" application and review process and the amount of documents needed to apply. Some even mentioned the failure of energy company Solyndra making them skittish about partnering up with the Obama administration."
"DOE leaves $51 billion in loan funds unused, oversight body reports"
http://thehill.co...-reports

Why not return the money to the taxpayers?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Jun 12, 2013
Three steps back:
"But for all its bravado, Tesla's still getting plenty of help from Uncle Sam. "
"Tesla still depends on government subsidies and tax credits to a significant degree—and to a much greater degree than does Chrysler, Ford, or GM."
" government regulations require the production of a certain number of alternative vehicles per year. Rather than build green cars themselves to meet mandates, some manufacturers simply purchase credits from companies that make zero-emission vehicles—like Tesla. In fact, as I noted recently, Tesla has a nice side business selling those tax credits. In the first quarter Tesla said sales of such credits amounted to $68 million, or 12 percent of revenue. Without the sale of those credits, Tesla would not have been profitable."
http://www.thedai...war.html
Fine example of crony capitalism/socialism.
Neinsense99
3.5 / 5 (8) Jun 12, 2013
AGW 'academics' don't count?

Sure they do - which is why you wont find me spamming a science web site with quotes from philosophers and economists - that is your schtick - I think it is evidence of being unable to formulate your own thoughts.


academic who had to be financially supported by wealthy benefactors..

AGW 'academics' are financially supported by wealthy benefactors.

Tesla was funded by a wealthy benefactor, Westinghouse, who invented the air-brake.
So the point is....

Tesla was many decades ago.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Jun 12, 2013
Tesla was many decades ago.
So?

The DoE has billions to loan to promote hybrids and electrics, and the Feds provide tax credits.
The 'progressives' whine about how the infrastructure is deteriorating, yet they support the subsidies that undercut the funding mechanism to pay for infrastructure.
"States look to tax hybrid and electric car owners to recoup road funding

Read more: http://www.foxnew...W39U1mun

Another solution are toll roads. Efficient toll roads that use GPS or cell phone towers to log the roads driven and calculate the toll.
But now the with the NSA and IRS spying, who will trust the toll tracker won't be recording their every move?
Now the DoT will have to create a new tax, a new bureaucracy to tax electric vehicles to pay for their 'fair share' of road taxes.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Jun 12, 2013
Tesla was many decades ago.

According to dj, the work any academic who had a wealthy benefactor must be discredited, discarded and ignored.
Nikoli Tesla had a wealthy benefactor and therefore all his work must be ignored, according to dj's 'logic'.
Of course most academics throughout history needed a wealthy benefactor or they could not have survived as academics.
FA Hayek discussed how 'academics' remained in the university and tend towards socialism.
"The Intellectuals and Socialism" http://library.mi...lism.pdf
djr
5 / 5 (4) Jun 12, 2013
BTW, I can't find any data to show Tesla has declared bankruptcy.

Funny how that works - post some misinformation - hope no one notices - Meh - if they do notice - shrug it off.....
djr
5 / 5 (5) Jun 12, 2013
According to dj, the work any academic who had a wealthy benefactor must be discredited, discarded and ignored.

My point was that I would not cut and paste quotes from a philosopher/economist - who wants to preach about economics and philosophy - and lives off the hard work of other people. The irony of that situation would of course evade you.
djr
5 / 5 (6) Jun 12, 2013
"Fine example of crony capitalism/socialism"

Funny how Rygg is anti government programs sometimes - but has no problem with handouts to the oil and gas industry.
kochevnik
4 / 5 (8) Jun 12, 2013
"Fine example of crony capitalism/socialism"Funny how Rygg is anti government programs sometimes - but has no problem with handouts to the oil and gas industry.
In ruggie's rulebook If it benefits the Koch brothers it's liberty, otherwise it's socialism
Neinsense99
3.5 / 5 (8) Jun 13, 2013
Then tell it phys.org. THEY are pushing a political agenda every day as are the AGWites.
IPCC is a POLITICAL orgainzation

No they are not - they are simply posting articles reporting on science research. You are sensing a bias - which is simply a bias in favor of reality - science has a funny way of doing that. Either way - it is ignorant and rude of you to push your political agenda on their web site - especially as this is not a political forum. If you have the misguided notion that they are pushing a political agenda - and you don't agree with it - surely it would be more respectful to leave us alone - and move on to a site you agree with. Or is your objective to be offensive?


Methinks it is the usual objective of creating an impression of lingering controversy where there is none among the informed and qualified.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Jun 13, 2013
According to dj, the work any academic who had a wealthy benefactor must be discredited, discarded and ignored.

My point was that I would not cut and paste quotes from a philosopher/economist - who wants to preach about economics and philosophy - and lives off the hard work of other people. The irony of that situation would of course evade you.

ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Jun 13, 2013
I would not cut and paste quotes from a philosopher/economist - who wants to preach about economics and philosophy - and lives off the hard work of other people.

Everything you post is from someone who lives of the hard work of other people. How many of your teachers were paid by taxpayers?
The benefactor of Mises was a wealthy individual who could spend HIS wealth as he chose.
Carnegie funded Napolean Hill for 20 years to write "Think and Grow Rich".
Tesla made a deal with Westinghouse.
Dj was likely educated by academics who were paid by wealth plundered (TAKEN by force).
Funny dj doesn't comment about how Mises worked for the Austrian govt living off plundered wealth before escaping NAZI socialism.

ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (11) Jun 13, 2013
BTW, I can't find any data to show Tesla has declared bankruptcy.

Funny how that works - post some misinformation - hope no one notices - Meh - if they do notice - shrug it off.....

Like shrug off the bits about Tesla profiting from an artificial market created by CAFE regulations?
Is that what dj admires about Tesla? Profiting from the favors of the state?
djr
5 / 5 (6) Jun 13, 2013
"Is that what dj admires about Tesla? Profiting from the favors of the state?"

Is that what Ryggy admires about the socialist oil companies - plundering my wealth for their own profit? Oh that is an inconvenient hypocrisy - recently pointed out by dj, and of course not addressed by Ryggy.

What dj admires about Tesla - is that starting a car company in today's environment is all but impossible. It is a massive undertaking - requiring vast levels of creativity, hard work, and of course capitalization. Musk has pulled it off - and we have a better world thanks to his work. Oil and gas companies are sweating it. They want to keep the 'plunder' to themselves - with Ryggy's support. Musk wants to market the cars directly - but the socialist Republicans in Texas require that he have a dealership network. It is an uphill battle for a creative business person!
djr
5 / 5 (6) Jun 13, 2013
How many of your teachers were paid by taxpayers?

They all were. How many of yours were paid by tax payers? So what? You are not capable of understanding the irony of quoting philosophy and economics - from someone who lives off the hard work of others.

So - if you don't believe in public education - what do you propose to do for the child I mentioned earlier? Dad is in jail, Mom is in and out of meth programs - the family is poor, uneducated, and in tatters. What is your solution?
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Jun 13, 2013
irony of quoting philosophy and economics - from someone who lives off the hard work of others.

He did NOT live off of the hard work of others.
Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend?
As an analogy then, anyone who works at MIT's Koch Cancer intitute can't be trusted because they are paid by the generosity of one of the Koch brothers?
If Fertig wanted to help support Mises, how is that living off the hard work of others?
djr
5 / 5 (6) Jun 13, 2013
If Fertig wanted to help support Mises, how is that living off the hard work of others?

You really don't know how contradictory that question is? You really don't understand that we are not talking about a cancer researcher - we are talking about an economist. Someone who wants to talk to us about money - but then mooches off others.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Jun 13, 2013
Someone who wants to talk to us about money - but then mooches off others.

"As the chief economic adviser to the Austrian government in the 1920s, Mises was single-handedly able to slow down Austrian inflation; and he developed his own "private seminar" which attracted the out­standing young economists, social scientists, and philosophers throughout Europe. "
"Mises became a prominent post-doctoral student in the famous University of Vienna seminar of the great Austrian economist Eugen von Bohm-Bawerk (among whose many accomplishments was the devastating refutation of the Marxian labor theory of value)."
" in his first great work, The Theory of Money and Credit (1912) Mises performed what had been deemed an impossible task: to integrate the theory of money into the general theory of marginal utility and price "
http://mises.org/...18811973
So who was Mises' benefactor in 1912?
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Jun 13, 2013
" In the United States as in his native Austria, Mises could not find a paid post in academia. New York University, where he taught from until 1945 until his retirement at the age of 88 in 1969, would only designate him as Visiting Professor, and his salary had to be paid by the conservative-libertarian William Volker Fund until 1962, and after that by a consortium of free-market foundations and businessmen. Despite the unfavorable climate, Mises inspired a growing group of students and admirers, cheer­fully encouraged their scholarship, and himself continued his remarkable productivity."

http://mises.org/...18811973
Why wouldn't a 'tolerant' 'liberal' university want to hire such a prominent scholar?
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Jun 13, 2013
"Mises was also sustained by and worked together with free­-market and libertarian admirers. From its origin in 1946 until his death, Mises was a part-time staff member of the Foundation for Economic Education at Irvington-on-Hudson, New York; and he was in the 1950s an economic advisor to the National Association of Manufacturers (NAM) working with their laissez-faire wing which finally lost out to the tide of "enlightened" statism."
http://mises.org/...18811973

"enlightened" statism.": aka: socialism/fascism/crony 'capitalism'.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Jun 13, 2013
Keynes was British civil servant living of the plunder of hard working Brit
Why does that qualify him to talk about money?
djr
5 / 5 (5) Jun 13, 2013
Keynes was British civil servant living of the plunder of hard working Brit
Why does that qualify him to talk about money?

I guess that is a question for you to answer Ryggy - I have never quoted Keynes - see - as I continually point out to you - this is a science web site - not a politics web site - and you are the one quoting philosophers and economists - on a science web site - not me.

Notice the silence from you on the more practical questions - what to do about the harsh reality of many aspects of of our world - such as poverty in the inner cities. Also the hypicrisy of your silence on supporting state plunder when it comes to fossil fuels - but getting all bent out of shape when an electric car company uses it - I guess when you live in a world of academia - you don't have to notice your glaring contradictions.....
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (11) Jun 13, 2013
you are the one quoting philosophers and economists - on a science web site - not me.

The first word in the title of this article is 'Entrepreneur'. How does that relate to science?
Instead of discussing the concepts presented by Mises, you attempt to discredit him. A very typical socialist tactic on display all over the news with the Obama regime.
But you keep asserting you are not a socialist, but keep acting like one.
If the socialist scientists would keep politics and economics out of their 'science' I won't discuss politics or economics.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Jun 13, 2013
Notice the silence from you on the more practical questions - what to do about the harsh reality of many aspects of of our world - such as poverty in the inner cities

What silence?
End the socialism of the inner cities.
Poverty is caused by socialist govts and cultures.
state plunder when it comes to fossil fuels

You mean how heavily taxed the oil and coal industry is by all levels of govts around the world? I'll be happy to discuss it.
But don't assert Musk is not some crony 'capitalist' like so many others.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Jun 13, 2013
"In a new Wall Street Journal/NBC news poll, the most popular response to the question asking voters what the prime cause of poverty was:

Lack of work ethic
Breakdown of families
Lack of good educational opportunities
Lack of job opportunities

Answer: None of these. In fact, the most popular answer was Too Much Welfare. Too much welfare got 24% of the vote, while A) received 10%, B) 13%, C) 13%, and D) 18%.

83% of voters said welfare recipients should have to work, and most Americans agreed that work, not government handouts, was the best route to escape poverty."

http://www.breitb...-Poverty
I guess the majority of the US is conservative. So why to they elect socialists?
djr
5 / 5 (5) Jun 13, 2013
I guess the majority of the US is conservative. So why to they elect socialists?

Maybe there is no choice. Rand Paul promised to oppose earmarks - until he realized that socialism is good for his state - then he changed his mind. John Boehner is supporting the NSA surveillance programs. It is the 'liberal' media that is opposing these big socialist gvt programs.
djr
5 / 5 (5) Jun 13, 2013
The first word in the title of this article is 'Entrepreneur'

It is a report about entrepeneurs and prayer - which segways beautifully for Ryggy to go into another spam session about socialists and liberals - Ryggy can always make that segway - article about batteries - socialists and liberals, article about cancer - socialists and liberals, article about cold fusion - socialists and liberals. You get the picture.
djr
5 / 5 (7) Jun 13, 2013
You mean how heavily taxed the oil and coal industry is by all levels of govts around the world? I'll be happy to discuss it.

Cool - discuss how you approve of plunder and socialism when it is for the oil and gas industry, but it is the mother of all evils when we are talking about an electric car company. Your logic is that oil and gas companies pay taxes - so that makes it OK. But Tesla pays taxes too - ooops - that is inconvenient.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Jun 13, 2013
discuss how you approve of plunder and socialism when it is for the oil and gas industry

I do NOT approve.
I stated a fact that govts tax fossil fuels heavily and depend upon that revenue like a drug addict.
I support ending ALL corporate taxes as the consumer ALWAYS pays, or the business will be out of business.
A significant percentage of profit from Tesla is from an govt created, artificial market. What would happen to that market if ALL companies started producing electric cars? It's just another consequence the socialists didn't plan for. Like running out of money to pay for roads and bridges as gas tax revenue falls.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.6 / 5 (9) Jun 13, 2013
Answer: None of these. In fact, the most popular answer was Too Much Welfare. Too much welfare got 24% of the vote, while A) received 10%, B) 13%, C) 13%, and D) 18%.

83% of voters said welfare recipients should have to work, and most Americans agreed that work, not government handouts, was the best route to escape poverty."
-So asking the people is the way to find out the right answer? Well who needs scientists then? (not you)

-The correct reason is not included in your post. It is the interplay of pop growth coupled with the advent of new tech which displaces jobs.

The worker is a commodity. As pops swell during times of prosperity, it becomes a buyers market for labor. Employers HAVE to pay workers less to remain competitive. Techno innovation which enables fewer workers to do more exacerbates the problem. We now have automation which eliminates workers altogether.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (8) Jun 13, 2013
Lets see something...
Ludwig Heinrich Edler von Mises; 29 September 1881 – 10 October 1973
Claude Frédéric Bastiat; 30 June 1801 – 24 December 1850)

-Hmmm. I wonder if either of these gentlemen had anticipated the explosion in automation within the last 30 years? We have come to accept during this period that robots and AI will be able to do most everything that humans can... faster, more dependably, and more consistently.

This is happening already.

"Does anyone doubt that it really is just a matter of time before human assembly line workers are a thing of the past?"
http://singularit...-plants/
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (8) Jun 13, 2013
WHAT are these robots doing?? Observing, pondering, judging... thinking?
http://www.youtub...bedded#!

-One gets the impression that the cameras filming the vid are also robotic.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Jun 13, 2013
Telsa did it the right way?
They still have to waste money they could use for product development on lobbyists/lawyers for govt benefits or to have the govt leave them alone. Either way it funds the socialist, Regulatory State. Why is that the right way?

As for automation:
"AMONG THE MOST viable of all economic delusions is the belief that machines on net balance create unemployment."
"on the second page of this first chapter the author tells us that a workman unacquainted with the use of machinery employed in pin-making "could scarce make one pin a day, and certainly could not make twenty," but with the use of this machinery he can make 4,800 pins a day. So already, alas, in Adam Smith's time, machinery had thrown from 240 to 4,800 pin-makers out of work for every one it kept."
http://steshaw.or...7p1.html
Adam Smith predates Bastiat and Mises.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Jun 13, 2013
"But the opposition to labor-saving machinery, even today, is not confined to economic illiterates."
"In brief, on net balance machines, technological improvements, automation, economies and efficiency do not throw men out of work."
"The real result of the machine is to increase production, to raise the standard of living, to increase economic welfare. It is no trick to employ everybody, even (or especially) in the most primitive economy. Full employment—very full employment; long, weary, backbreaking employment—is characteristic of precisely the nations that are most retarded industrially. "
http://steshaw.or...7p4.html
Neinsense99
3.5 / 5 (8) Jun 13, 2013
"But the opposition to labor-saving machinery, even today, is not confined to economic illiterates."
"In brief, on net balance machines, technological improvements, automation, economies and efficiency do not throw men out of work."
"The real result of the machine is to increase production, to raise the standard of living, to increase economic welfare. It is no trick to employ everybody, even (or especially) in the most primitive economy. Full employment—very full employment; long, weary, backbreaking employment—is characteristic of precisely the nations that are most retarded industrially. "
http://steshaw.or...7p4.html

Economics in One Lesson has at least 7 chapters? If it fits in one lesson, it can't be much of a science.
Neinsense99
3.3 / 5 (7) Jun 13, 2013
The first word in the title of this article is 'Entrepreneur'

It is a report about entrepeneurs and prayer - which segways beautifully for Ryggy to go into another spam session about socialists and liberals - Ryggy can always make that segway - article about batteries - socialists and liberals, article about cancer - socialists and liberals, article about cold fusion - socialists and liberals. You get the picture.

Properly, that should be segue, from the Italian seguire, I believe, not segway, which is a brand name based on a corruption. See http://writingitr...aysegue/ or http://english.st...or-segue
djr
5 / 5 (4) Jun 13, 2013
I do NOT approve."

Then you are a liar much. We have had interactions in the past - where I have talked about leveling the playing field for renewable energy - and you have argued against leveling the playing field - ie. removing all govt supports - and letting the chips fall where they will. Do you think it is funny - taking up band width with childish lies?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Jun 13, 2013
I do NOT approve."

Then you are a liar much. We have had interactions in the past - where I have talked about leveling the playing field for renewable energy - and you have argued against leveling the playing field - ie. removing all govt supports - and letting the chips fall where they will. Do you think it is funny - taking up band width with childish lies?

Ending ALL subsidies and loan guarantees for everyone IS 'leveling the playing field'. The govt can't punish or reward anyone, equal treatment.
dj claims he is not a socialist yet he seems to want the state to use plundered wealth to play favorites in the economy.
djr
5 / 5 (5) Jun 13, 2013
Ryggy: "Poverty is caused by socialist govts and cultures."

If that is an accurate statement - you should be able to point me to a non socialist system - in which there is no poverty - correct? Also - we should be able to find a correlation - between degree of socialism withing an economy, and degree of poverty - correct. Maybe we should look at a country like Norway - gvt run health care, education, retirement, everything. So they should have more poverty that good old U.S. - correct?
djr
5 / 5 (5) Jun 13, 2013
dj claims he is not a socialist yet he seems to want the state to use plundered wealth to play favorites in the economy

Ryggy claims he does not support socialism - but wants the state to support big oil and gas - but not to support an electric car company - that is called winners and losers.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
"But the opposition to labor-saving machinery, even today, is not confined to economic illiterates."
"In brief, on net balance machines, technological improvements, automation, economies and efficiency do not throw men out of work."..."
http://steshaw.or...7p4.html
H.H.
Wilton, Conn.
June 1978

-Since 1978 there has been a revolution in the understanding that thinking machines can, and will, throw everybody out of work.
Full employment—very full employment; long, weary, backbreaking employment—is characteristic of precisely the nations that are most retarded industrially.
So ryggy by quoting this are you admitting that full employment is a thing of the past, and that the exponential increase of automation will necessarily cause govts to EXPAND welfare so that people will have money to spend on goods that automation produces?

Because with so many out of work, who can afford to buy pins?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
"In brief, on net balance machines, technological improvements, automation, economies and efficiency do not throw men out of work."
New tech ALWAYS throws people out of work. Industrialization caused the invention of communism. It caused the german revolution. It CAUSED the american civil war, as Leaders realized that the only way to replace the slave-based southern economy was to DESTROY it.

This is similar to the way that old factories are demolished to accomodate new tech. Cheaper than retrofit.

Curious how 70s thinking refuses to die. Religion-fueled overpopulation is such an obvious reality and yet people here still insist that pop growth is self-regulating. We have lived through -how many recessions?- since the 70s, and people like ryggy refuse to accept the obvious reality of economic cycles.

How long will it take before the general public begins to suspect that these cycles are Engineered of necessity?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Jun 14, 2013
dj claims he is not a socialist yet he seems to want the state to use plundered wealth to play favorites in the economy

Ryggy claims he does not support socialism - but wants the state to support big oil and gas - but not to support an electric car company - that is called winners and losers.

Now you are outright lying.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Jun 14, 2013
We have lived through -how many recessions?- since the 70s, and people like ryggy refuse to accept the obvious reality of economic cycles.


And they were all the fault of a govt controlled economy. The Federal Reserve has been controlling the US economy since it inception over 100 years ago.
It's first major debacle was called the Great Depression.
Industrialization caused the invention of communism.

Yes, by the govts who feared losing power to a suddenly more wealthy citizenry.
Govts can't have victims who don't depend upon them for survival.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Jun 14, 2013
we should be able to find a correlation - between degree of socialism withing an economy, and degree of poverty -


http://www.herita.../ranking

"Hong Kong's highly competitive regulatory regime, coupled with an efficient and transparent legal framework, sustains vibrant engagement in global trade and investment. "
"Registering a loss of economic freedom for the fifth consecutive year, the U.S. has recorded its lowest Index score since 2000. Dynamic entrepreneurial growth is stifled by ever-more-bloated government and a trend toward cronyism that erodes the rule of law. "

If you explore the data you will find high correlation with property rights and other economic liberties with prosperity.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
And they were all the fault of a govt controlled economy
Now you are outright lying.
The Federal Reserve has been controlling the US economy since it inception over 100 years ago.
And economic cycles are as old as history.
Yes, by the govts who feared losing power to a suddenly more wealthy citizenry
Communism destroyed monarchies and took wealth from capitalists. Communists DESTROYED the status quo, in every case.

No govt invented communism, at least not the ones you are aware of. A sudden and gross excess of labor gave it birth. Communism provided the means both to destroy obsolete govts and to galvanize this great mass of excess humanity, to destroy itself.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
"Hong Kong's highly competitive regulatory regime, coupled with an efficient and transparent legal framework, sustains vibrant engagement in global trade and investment. "
Indeed, things are always rosy at the beginning of a Cycle. Remember japan in the 50s?
If you explore the data you will find high correlation with property rights and other economic liberties with prosperity
If you explore ALL the data you will be faced with the reality of overpopulation, economic cycles, and the sad 2-dimensionality of your personality.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Jun 14, 2013
As for Norway:
"Norway's impressive gains in economic freedom have moved it once again into the "mostly free" category. The government has focused on containing expensive welfare programs, with the accumulation of assets from hydrocarbon production in the National Wealth Fund providing a cushion for fiscal stimulus. With the budget deficit narrowing, public debt remains under control. However, state ownership in key industries continues to be substantial.

The strong competitiveness of the Norwegian economy is built on openness and transparency, with policies that support dynamic trade and investment. The quality of the legal framework is among the world's highest, providing effective protection of property rights. The rule of law is well maintained, and a strong tradition of minimum tolerance for corruption continues."

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Jun 14, 2013
"It's worth asking, then, why Scandinavians are consistently willing to spend more and pay more than Americans. An important part of the answer is that members of small, homogeneous societies are much more willing to bear the burden of supporting their fellow citizens than members of large, diverse ones.

Schwartz contends that "the publics in these countries trust government because the social democrats built their welfare state upon a vision of comprehensive and universal social rights." That's partly true. But it neglects the crucial fact that this vision was achieved in societies where the vast majority of the population looked the same, talked the same, had names and relatives in common, went to same churches, and so on."
"increased diversity tends to decrease social trust and willingness to make sacrifices for others. And that's just what's happened as the generous North has experienced its first encounter with mass immigration, " Nordic Mirage
{See the latest Swedish riots?}
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Jun 14, 2013
"An important part of the answer is that members of small, homogeneous societies are much more willing to bear the burden of supporting their fellow citizens than members of large, diverse ones."
http://redpillrep...-sweden/
"
Though Garner was unaware of any scams involving the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP – known commonly as "food stamps" – a recent undercover investigation turned up five stores and eight people involved in several money-making scams involving illegal use of the cards.

It's an activity that is growing, say experts."

Read more: http://www.enterp...WD6AbJyX

Politicians in MA and around the country refuse to stop the fraud as most of the dependents vote for democrats.

"Governor Patrick Still In Denial Over EBT Fraud"
http://michaelgra...t-fraud/
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
"Unemployment Rate in Norway increased to 3.70 percent in March of 2013 from 3.50 percent in February of 2013.

"Pop growth rate - 1.3% annual change

"Value added in extraction of crude oil and natural gas was nearly unchanged from 2011 to 2012, which led to a growth in total GDP of 3.2 per cent, according to preliminary national account volume figures.

"Value added in general government grew by 1.8 per cent. Growth in local government value added was somewhat stronger than central government, and within local government growth was especially evident in social services, including childcare."

-Again, everybodys happy at the beginning of a cycle.
Politicians in MA and around the country refuse to stop the fraud as most of the dependents vote for democrats
-And the decline and collapse phases of economic cycles are marked with corruption as people struggle to keep businesses afloat and families fed.

"Detroit Bankruptcy Imminent"
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Jun 14, 2013
we should be able to find a correlation - between degree of socialism withing an economy, and degree of poverty

I'll post this, AGAIN.

"Reviewing the economic performance—good and bad—
of more than 100 countries over the past 30 years, this
paper finds new empirical evidence supporting the idea
that economic freedom and civil and political liberties are
the root causes of why some countries achieve and sustain
better economic outcomes."
http://www-wds.wo...5660.pdf
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Jun 14, 2013


"The only truly new political idea in the past couple thousand years is this libertarian idea, broadly understood. The revolution wrought by John Locke, Edmund Burke, Adam Smith and the Founding Fathers is the only real revolution going. And it's still unfolding.

Indeed, what's remarkable about all of the states Lind identifies as proof that libertarianism doesn't work are in fact proof that it does. What made the American experiment new were its libertarian innovations, broadly speaking. Moreover, those innovations made us prosper. Even Sweden — the liberal Best in Show — owes its successes to its libertarian concessions."
http://www.dispat...rld.html
djr
5 / 5 (1) Jun 14, 2013
"Now you are outright lying."

No Ryggy - that is your schtick - like when you said that Tesla was bankrupt. When I caught your lie - you just brush it off.

I was telling the truth. In previous threads - and also in this thread - you have indicated that you object to Tesla receiving gvt assistance - but do not share the same concern when it comes to oil and gas companies receiving assistance. I have stated that I beleve that renewable energy could compete if the playing field were level - but you are not in support of removing gvt support for oil and gas. It is clear who the liar is.
djr
not rated yet Jun 14, 2013
"members of small, homogeneous societies are much more willing to bear the burden of supporting their fellow citizens than members of large, diverse ones"

But that is socialism - that in your view - causes poverty. I guess your are more than a little confused.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Jun 14, 2013
but do not share the same concern when it comes to oil and gas companies receiving assistance.

Again, since you brought it up,I will say AGAIN, END all govt subsidies. Now would be a great time to repeal the 16th amendment and eliminate the IRS.
I have stated that I beleve that renewable energy could compete if the playing field were level -

Which means you support MORE socialism.
But that is socialism - that in your view - causes poverty. I guess your are more than a little confused


I have said many times the ONLY way socialism can work is if there is 100% participation. Like a monastery, and there can be NO coercion and anyone must be allowed to leave.
And note the Nordic countries DO have strong private property laws and Jante's Law. The reason the Muslims are rioting in Sweden demonstrates what happens when homogeneity is lost in a welfare state.
BTW before the welfare state there was the mutual aid societies, more in line with the Nordic welfare state.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Jun 14, 2013
" it's easy to see how socialism might have worked, and worked successfully, for many decades in Europe. A working class accustomed over the centuries to taking orders from a ruling class would adapt easily if the orders came from a drably dressed government worker, as opposed to a splendidly dressed courtier. "
"Lastly, if you're wondering about the importance of homogeneity to the success of European socialism, think about what's been happening in Europe since the mid-1980s, when the European countries stopped limiting immigration, and opened their doors to a flood of Eastern Europeans, Africans, East Asians, and Muslim Middle Easterners. These people did not view the socialist welfare system as part of a social contract. Instead, they viewed it as vast treasure house to be pillaged."
http://www.bookwo...cialism/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Jun 14, 2013
"Were it possible in a socialist community to ascertain the output of the labor of every individual comrade with the same precision with which this is accomplished for each worker by means of economic calculation in the capitalist system, the practicability of socialism would not be dependent on the good will of every individual. Society would be in a position, at least within certain limits, to determine the share of the total output to be allotted to each worker on the basis of the extent of his contribution to production. What renders socialism impracticable is precisely the fact that calculation of this kind is impossible in a socialist society."
http://mises.org/...sec4.asp
The success of socialism depends upon the good will of EVERY individual.
Not even the religious Pilgrims had that much good will.
djr
5 / 5 (1) Jun 14, 2013
Me: "I have stated that I beleve that renewable energy could compete if the playing field were level"

Ryggy: "Which means you support MORE socialism."

Me - holy shit - do we even speak the same language. Leveling the playing field means removing all gvt supports - for all energy sources - INCLUDING oil and gas. Then you will see that renewables can compete. But confused little Ryggy wants to let the gvt support oil and gas, and then bad mouths renewables for being socialist.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
"Ideals are called ideals for a reason: They're ideals. They're goals, aspirations, abstract straight rules we use as measuring sticks against the crooked timber of humanity.In the old Soviet Union, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, and today's North Korea, they tried to move toward the ideal Communist system. Combined, they killed about 100 million of their own people. That's a hefty moral distinction right there: When freedom-lovers move society toward their ideal, mistakes may be made, but people tend to flourish. When the hard Left is given free rein, millions are murdered and enslaved. Which ideal would you like to move toward?

Read more: http://www.realcl...WFCiIxRc
Follow us: @RCP_Articles on Twitter
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
Leveling the playing field means removing all gvt supports - for all energy sources - INCLUDING oil and gas. Then you will see that renewables can compete.


Usually when 'level the playing field' is used, especially for non-competitive industries like electric cars, they mean the govt must tie the hands of competitive industries.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
So how can renewables compete without subsidies?

"Germany has seen energy prices go through the roof as the result of the government's green energy subsidies and mandates. On Wednesday, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said that she would rein in Germany's green subsidies to ease the burden that has been placed on consumers."
"German citizens and businesses have become increasingly burdened by the costs of subsidizing more green energy production. Since 1998, taxes and government charges on energy consumption have risen 243 percent in Germany, and now make up more than half of the price of electricity in the country.

Read more: http://dailycalle...WFKGPamH
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
"As with wind and solar power, investment in biomass does not happen without subsidy; current plans to convert half of Drax's 4,000 megawatt capacity from coal to biomass depend on getting an extra £45 per megawatt hour from the government on top of what the electricity sells for."
http://www.econom...-bonfire
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
""Now my recollection of what a subsidy means is when you are given money to do something. I guess when I drilled 17 dry holes in a row I missed that pay window. No one sent me a check." – Harold Hamm, Chairman and CEO of Continental Resources"

"the oil and natural gas industry does not actually receive any tax "subsidies" from the federal government, but frustrating because pretty much no one in the news media ever reports on the subject accurately."
"The truth is that the oil and gas industry receives the same kinds of tax treatments that every other manufacturing or extractive industry receives in the federal tax code. "
http://www.forbes...big-oil/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
"Despite repeated calls from President Obama to end tax subsidies for oil and gas companies, tax benefits for renewable energy and energy efficiency make up three-quarters of energy-related tax subsidies the U.S. is estimated to hand out in 2013.

In 2013, it's estimated that $7.3 billion — 45 percent — in energy tax subsidies, will go towards renewable energy, according to Congressional testimony by Congressional Budget Office senior advisor Terry Dinan. Another $4.8 billion — 29 percent — in energy tax subsidies will be for energy efficiency.

Read more: http://dailycalle...WFOrW58z
Yes, let's 'level the playing field'.
djr
not rated yet Jun 14, 2013
"Usually when 'level the playing field' is used, especially for non-competitive industries like electric cars, they mean the govt must tie the hands of competitive industries."

No it does not - it means get out of the way - and let the chips fall as they may. And yes - wind and solar would be able to compete in a world in which the government was not favoring oil and gas. Ryggy claims to oppose socialism - but supports it when it is for oil and gas. Liar and hypocrite.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
wind and solar would be able to compete in a world in which the government was not favoring oil and gas.

The world favors oil and gas because it is energy dense and least expensive.
Even socialist Germany admits it can't afford its renewable subsidies, and many references document how oil and gas is NOT subsidized as you assert.
So how can intermittent sources like wind and solar compete 'on a level playing field'?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
This is a subsidy?
"Obama bans eastern Gulf drilling for 7 years"
http://www.cnn.co...dex.html

"New offshore wind subsidies welcomed
Wind turbines One of the subsidies aims to support offshore electricity generation
http://www.bbc.co...22873006

Why are windmill subsidies welcomed?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2013
One reason oil and gas are favored, tax revenue:
"The report, issued by the National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA), said increasing offshore drilling production could add nearly $5 million in revenue a day to the federal treasury and "significantly" reduce gas prices. -
"Oil companies pay an 18.75 percent royalty to the federal government on the oil produced," Bluey said. "With oil currently trading above $100 a barrel that equals $4.7 million in lost revenue each day." -
See more at: http://cnsnews.co...kT9.dpuf
Oil and gas are subsidizing renewables.
Artificially increasing the price of oil and gas by govt restrictions on supply is a socialist ruse to subsidize.
djr
not rated yet Jun 15, 2013
So how can intermittent sources like wind and solar compete 'on a level playing field'?

Well - you are not paying attention (too busy spamming the internet with lies, and ideology). Wind and solar are certainly cost competitive - here is an article to start you on your journey to enlightenment if you are interested - http://cleantechn...entskwh/

If oil and gas are so cost competitive - wonder why the oil and gas industry has to have one of the biggest lobbying machines in the world - damn socialists!

This of course in no way addresses your hypocrisy in approving of socialism when applied to oil an gas companies - but having a fit about it if it relates to alternative energy.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 16, 2013
wonder why the oil and gas industry has to have one of the biggest lobbying machines in the world

Oil companies pay royalties to govts for the oil they pump. They pay govts for the 'right' to explore for oil. They are subject to thousands of regulations that impact the cost doing business.
Because oil companies must deal with socialsts they need to hire experts to negotiate legislatures and regulators.
Of course some govts think they can do better and nationalized their oil companies, but they are not nearly as cost effective.
BP, Exxon are ENERGY companies and IF they found an energy source more efficient and profitable than oil, why wouldn't they sell it?
When costing out 'renewables', put them on a level playing field and include the costs of energy storage and 24/7 energy production.
The only alternate that can compete with oil on 24/7/365 energy production is nuclear.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 16, 2013
"Because these national champions control as much as 90% of the world's oil and gas, they can do far more than the likes of Exxon to assuage the current worries about supply and to influence the accompanying record prices. But like most state-owned firms, they are prone to over-staffing, underinvestment, political interference and corruption."
http://www.econom.../7270301
"There's a large and obvious problem with wind and solar, after all: They're not "on" all the time. Clouds can cover the sun, and the wind dies down.

Then, to keep the lights on, conventional power plants have to be ready to kick in at a moment's notice.

What this means is that to boost the share of renewable energy, a state also has to build more reserve capacity of the old-fashioned kind.

And not only that. It also has to keep power sources such as gas-fired turbines "hot and spinning,"
http://news.inves...m?p=full
djr
not rated yet Jun 16, 2013
Oil companies pay royalties to govts for the oil they pump.

As they should - and electric car companies pay taxes - so keep trying Ryggy - keep trying to convince yourself that it is consistent to support socialism for the oil companies, but not for innovative electric car companies - just keep trying Ryggy.

What this means is that to boost the share of renewable energy, a state also has to build more reserve capacity of the old-fashioned kind.

Not true at all - and shows your total ignorance of the subject at hand. Renewable energy is being added to grids around the world - alleviating the need to build new fossil fuel plants. Simply put Ryggy - you's wrong.....
antialias_physorg
1 / 5 (2) Jun 16, 2013
Hey rygg - you are aware that companies like Exxon have a NEGATIVE tax rate? That's right: they don't contribute a single dollar to the upkeep of the country (despite making billions in profits) - they just ADDITIONALLY syphon off cash from taxpayers. Now THAT's socialism.

Here's a couple of others with negative tax rates between 2008-2010:
GE, American Electric Power, IBM, Wells Fargo, FedEx, Honeywell international, Yahoo, United Technologies, Boeing, Verizon and Dupont.

In that timeframe they helped themselves to 2.5 billion dollars in negative taxes. Cool, huh?

..and there's a couple of companies (like Apple) that stash their profits in tax havens - awaiting a time when the tax code is even more lenient so they can bring these assets back without paying taxes on them (for Apple this currently is a stash of well over 100 billion dollars in as yet completely untaxed profits)

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 16, 2013
"1. ExxonMobil
• Income tax expense: $31.05 billion"
2. Chevron
• Income tax expense: $20.00 billion"
http://www.usatod...1991313/
"The company said it paid $26.6 billion in taxes and royalties during the quarter -- $8.5 billion in the form of income taxes."
http://money.cnn....ndex.htm
consistent to support socialism for the oil companies, but not for innovative electric car companies

I support ending ALL corporate taxes since the customer pays ALL taxes for any business that makes a profit. Do any socialists here support this?
I support LIMITING the power of govts to regulate, play favorites and attempt to pick winners and losers. Do the socialists here support this?
Renewable energy is being added to grids around the world -

As a govt mandate. AKA a subsidy.
djr
not rated yet Jun 16, 2013
As a govt mandate. AKA a subsidy.

So now Ryggy's problem is with subsidies - unless they are for friends in the oil and gas industry - then Ryygy supports socialism - but has a fit about subsidies for companies like Tesla - how two faced.
djr
not rated yet Jun 16, 2013
I support ending ALL corporate taxes since the customer pays ALL taxes for any business that makes a profit. Do any socialists here support this?
I support LIMITING the power of govts to regulate, play favorites and attempt to pick winners and losers. Do the socialists here support this?

As a part of comprehensive tax reform - that would minimize government - simplify the tax system - ensure that we all pay our fair share for a dramatically smaller government (with special emphasis on cutting the bloated military budget by at least 90 percent) - I would definitely support that - but then I am not a socialist like Ryggy.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 16, 2013
""Everybody saw the Super Bowl," Wellinghoff said, referring to the half-hour blackout that disrupted the 2013 football championship. "Everybody saw the outages in lower Manhattan [after Hurricane Sandy] very graphically. People will want to have more control. People will want the ability to flip the switch and know that when they flip the switch they are in control."

""It was interesting to see how complicated the business of selling electricity is and how many factors go into deciding whether business models are viable," said Mark Walker, a first-year Ph.D. student in Princeton's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs. He added that it also was striking "how emerging technologies can drastically change the way we might see the grid operate in the future."

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp

Can the socialists give up control of the power grid?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 16, 2013
As a part of comprehensive tax reform - that would minimize government - simplify the tax system - ensure that we all pay our fair share


Sure.

BTW, when California and other govts FORCE utilties to have a certain percentage of solar or wind, it is a subsidy that the consumer is FORCED to pay.
CAFE forces car companies to make cars people don't want, that are not safer and subsidize Tesla by allowing them to sell CAFE 'credits' instead of cars.
djr
not rated yet Jun 16, 2013
Can the socialists give up control of the power grid?

I don't know Ryggy - can you?

Distributed power systems of the future will most probably render the type of grid we have today unnecessary - as the price of solar power continues to fall - we will see more and more businesses and homes adopting solar. The socialists in the oil and gas industry that are supported by socialists like Ryggy are losing their grip - which is why the are employing armies of lobbyists to try to keep their control.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 16, 2013
we will see more and more businesses and homes adopting solar.

Only if they cost less.
Most homeowners don't want to layout the thousands needed for a full solar system, including the batteries and inverters since most won't stay in the house long enough to recover the costs and it won't add value to the house.
The Toshiba nuclear battery is a great concept for large building power sources.
I have been looking at a solar backup supply. Two panels, a 1700 W inverter and two deep cycle marine batteries => ~$1700. This will run a small freezer or refrigerator and a few lights. Useful in an emergency.
employing armies of lobbyists to try to keep their control.

Under the current socialist regime, oil and gas industry lobbyists are losing out to the solar lobbyists and crony capitalists that funded Obama's election. And were rewarded with 'free' money. But to some, this is called 'leveling the playing field'.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jun 16, 2013
"Nuclear technology vendor Babcock & Wilcox formalized its funding agreement with the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) for the mPower reactor project. With $79 million of federal funds for this year (and a total of $150 million over the five-year program), B&W plans to build a prototype SMR at the Clinch River site in Tennessee, owned by the Tennessee Valley Authority."
{TVA is a govt agency.}
"The earliest applications for SMRs are likely to be distributed generation in remote places, including military forward operating bases. A Russian consortium is constructing a barge-mounted SMR, based on the nuclear engines that power icebreaker ships, that can be deployed in some of the least hospitable places on Earth. The idea of nuclear reactors powering oil and gas production in the Arctic is hardly a reassuring thought for environmentalists and diplomats. But it's likely to become a reality in less than a decade."
http://www.forbes...ll-nucle
djr
not rated yet Jun 16, 2013
So now you are promoting socialism for the nuclear industry - what a socialist you are Ryggy - I thought you only believed in an energy source if it was cost competitive without gvt supports - what a hypocrite your are.

"Under the current socialist regime, oil and gas industry lobbyists are losing out to the solar lobbyists and crony capitalists that funded Obama's election."

Oh my god - beaten at that their own game - who'd a thunk - Ryggy and the socialists in the oil and gas industry are on the run - whoo hooo.
antialias_physorg
1 / 5 (2) Jun 17, 2013
Rygg- I'll give you an idea on how surviveable/cost-effective certain energy sources are without subsidies:

In germany (all values adjusted to 2011 values for Euros) :
Total subsidies received by the coal sector: 210bn EUR
Total subsidies received by the nuclear sector: 180bn EUR
Total subsidies received by ALL of th renewables sector (hydro, solar, wind, biogas, ...): 29bn EUR (this includes future feed-in subsidies already set down by law till 2030)

...and renewables have already overtaken nuclear in their production capacity, with wind already being equal in cost per kWh produced (and dropping).

So you tell me: Which one is the more cost effective energy source? And which industries should we ditch?
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 17, 2013
renewables have already overtaken nuclear in their production capacity, with wind already being equal in cost per kWh produced (and dropping).

Shut down ALL coal and nuke plants. No need to keep them on line then.
When its cloudy, dark and when the wind stops you will just light a candle.

DJ, when you say 'level the playing field' you want your favorite industry to get the same tax treatment, or better than what you oppose.
I have said, and will continue to say, end ALL subsidies. End ALL corporate taxes. End ALL govt regulations that punish or reward favorites. Let's compete on the pure economics and technology.
So let's truly level the playing field. Repeal the 16th Amendment. Enact the FAIR tax. Abolish the Depts of Energy, Education, H.S., HHS, Transportation; IRS, EPA, FDA, ....
This is the ONLY way to end lobbying. Take the power from the govt to control the economy.
djr
1 / 5 (1) Jun 17, 2013
"DJ, when you say 'level the playing field' you want your favorite industry to get the same tax treatment, or better than what you oppose."

How illiterate are you? I already stated that level the playing field means - get out of the way - and let the chips fall. That means the SAME treatment for all industries. Remove all government supports of all kinds. Shut down the army of lobbyists for your socialist friends in the oil and gas industry. How many ways can I say the same thing?
djr
1 / 5 (1) Jun 17, 2013
Ryggy - fracking was developed in large part with government supports. Today we all benefit from the volumes of oil and gas that are made available by this new technology. Do you think that government should be involved in any way in the development of energy in a country. What about the issue of pollution. See this story on Donora for example http://en.wikiped...ora_smog Do you think there is any role for government in terms of setting regulations and policies that protect the public from hazards such as the Donora pollution? Please give your own opinion - not a cut and paste from a 15th century mystic.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 17, 2013

Shut down the army of lobbyists for your socialist friends in the oil and gas industry.

AND for solar and wind and ....?
I oppose crony 'capitalism' in ALL industries.
Do you?
Do you think that government should be involved in any way in the development of energy in a country.

NO, and neither do you if you mean what you say.
Do you think there is any role for government in terms of setting regulations and policies that protect the public from hazards such as the Donora pollution

NO, and neither do you if you are opposed to lobbying.
The ONLY role for govt is to protect private property rights.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 17, 2013
"Newspaper editorials dating back to the mid-19th century decried the foul sooty air belching from iron and steel industry smokestacks and pressed for government action to control pollution.

Ordinances limiting smoke in the city were twice enacted at the turn of the century, but were later invalidated by the courts. "
http://www.donora...smog.htm
Why were these industries allowed to violate the air of local residents?
Courts failed to protect the property rights of local residents.
djr
1 / 5 (1) Jun 17, 2013
AND for solar and wind and ....? Yes.

Courts failed to protect the property rights of local residents.

And what framework do you use to define what a persons property rights are? I imagine it is a system of laws - that are passed by the government. Correct me if I am wrong. If it is a system of laws - passed by the government - then you are agreeing that the government has a role to play in determining the process of society. You seem to be saying - that the courts will be the protector of society. So what happens when large corporations - use their economic wealth - to control the courts - and trample the rights of individuals? Here is an example of the famous Ford Pinto case. http://en.wikiboo...troversy

Are you OK with a world in which people are killed by greed - and then their families get compensation through the courts? Too bad on the dead person - too bad, so sad.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 17, 2013
Do you think there is any role for government in terms of setting regulations and policies

Are not the same a protecting private property rights.
- use their economic wealth

A limited govt won't care.
How about the Firestone/Explorer cases where the US govt failed to investigate and companies settled out of court, for a while.
OK with a world in which people are killed by greed

Depends upon who is killed.
In a world where private property rights are protected, the greed of the city, state and US govt regarding Donora would not be allowed.
Anyone who filed a suit stating the pollution was violating his property would have been heard and respected by a proper govt.
Had the govt not forced the sale of Love canal no houses would have been built over a toxic waste dump.
If private property rights were defended by the govt, no one could have dumped toxic waste into the Cuyahoga river for very long.