Is Big Data turning government into 'Big Brother'? (Update)

Jun 07, 2013 by Michael Liedtke
An aerial view of the NSA's Utah Data Center in Bluffdale, Utah, Thursday, June 6, 2013. The government is secretly collecting the telephone records of millions of U.S. customers of Verizon under a top-secret court order, according to the chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. The Obama administration is defending the National Security Agency's need to collect such records, but critics are calling it a huge over-reach. (AP Photo/Rick Bowmer)

With every phone call they make and every Web excursion they take, people are leaving a digital trail of revealing data that can be tracked by profit-seeking companies and terrorist-hunting government officials.

The revelations that the National Security Agency is perusing millions of U.S. customer phone records at Verizon Communications and snooping on the digital communications stored by nine major Internet services illustrate how aggressively personal data is being collected and analyzed.

Verizon is handing over so-called metadata, excerpts from millions of U.S. customer records, to the NSA under an order issued by the secretive Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, according to a report in the British newspaper The Guardian. The report was confirmed Thursday by Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein, who chairs the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Former NSA employee William Binney told The Associated Press that he estimates the agency collects records on 3 billion phone calls each day.

The NSA and FBI appear to be looking even wider under a clandestine program code-named "PRISM" that was revealed in stories posted late Thursday by The Washington Post and The Guardian.

PRISM gives the U.S. government access to email, documents, audio, video, photographs and other data belonging to foreigners on foreign soil who are under investigation, according to The Washington Post. The newspaper said it reviewed a confidential roster of companies and services participating in PRISM. The companies included AOL Inc., Apple Inc., Facebook Inc., Google Inc., Microsoft Corp., Yahoo Inc., Skype, YouTube and Paltalk.

In statements, Apple, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, AOL and Paltalk all said they only provide the government with user data required under the law. (Google runs YouTube and Microsoft owns Skype.)

The NSA isn't getting customer names or the content of phone conversations under the Verizon court order, but that doesn't mean the information can't be tied to other data coming in through the PRISM program to look into people's lives, according to experts.

Like pieces of a puzzle, the bits and bytes left behind from people's electronic interactions can be cobbled together to draw conclusions about their habits, friendships and preferences using data-mining formulas and increasingly powerful computers.

It's all part of a phenomenon known as "Big Data," a catchphrase increasingly used to describe the science of analyzing the vast amount of information collected through mobile devices, Web browsers and check-out stands. Analysts use powerful computers to detect trends and create digital dossiers about people.

The Obama administration and lawmakers privy to the NSA's surveillance say the data being collected is only dissected when there is credible evidence of a terrorist plot or other reasons to believe that national security is being threatened. The sweeping court order covers the Verizon records of every mobile and landline phone call from April 25 through July 19, according to The Guardian.

In this Tuesday, Dec. 13, 2011, file photo, a Facebook User Operations Safety Team worker looks at reviews at Facebook headquarters in Menlo Park, Calif. The Washington Post and The Guardian reported Thursday, June 6, 2013, the existence of a program used by the NSA and FBI that scours the nation's main Internet companies, extracting audio, video, photographs, emails, documents and connection logs to help analysts track a person's movements and contacts. (AP Photo/Paul Sakuma, File)

It's likely the Verizon phone records are being matched with an even broader set of data, said Forrester Research analyst Fatemeh Khatibloo.

"My sense is they are looking for network patterns," she said. "They are looking for who is connected to whom and whether they can put any timelines together. They are also probably trying to identify locations where people are calling from."

The Verizon data includes the duration of every call. Although the court order doesn't require it, experts suspect the NSA may also be getting some kind of data that helps determine the vicinity of the calls.

The location information is particularly valuable for cloak-and-dagger operations like the one the NSA is running, said Cindy Cohn, a legal director for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a digital rights group that has been fighting the government's collection of personal phone records since 2006. The foundation is suing over the government's collection of U.S. citizens' communications in a case that dates back to the administration of President George W. Bush.

"It's incredibly invasive," Cohn said. "This is a consequence of the fact that we have so many third parties that have accumulated significant information about our everyday lives."

It's such a rich vein of information that U.S. companies and other organizations now spend more than $2 billion each year to obtain third-party data about individuals, according to Forrester Research. The data helps businesses target potential customers. Much of this information is sold by so-called data brokers such as Acxiom Corp., a Little Rock, Arkansas, company that maintains extensive files about the online and offline activities of more than 500 million consumers worldwide.

The digital floodgates have opened during the past decade as the convenience and allure of the Internet—and sleek smartphones—have made it easier and more enjoyable for people to stay connected wherever they go.

"I don't think there has been a sea change in analytical methods as much as there has been a change in the volume, velocity and variety of information and the computing power to process it all," said Gartner analyst Douglas Laney.

In a sign of the NSA's determination to vacuum up as much data as possible, the agency has built a data center in Bluffdale, Utah that is five times larger than the U.S. Capitol —all to sift through Big Data. The massive center has fed perceptions that some factions of the U.S. government are determined to build a database of all phone calls, Internet searches and emails under the guise of national security. The Washington Post's disclosure that both the NSA and FBI have the ability to burrow into computers of major Internet services will likely heighten fears that U.S. government's Big Data is creating something akin to the ever-watchful Big Brother in George Orwell's "1984" novel.

"The fact that the government can tell all the phone carriers and Internet service providers to hand over all this data sort of gives them carte blanche to build profiles of people they are targeting in a very different way than any company can," Khatibloo said.

In most instances, Internet companies such as Google, Facebook and Yahoo are taking what they learn from search requests, clicks on "like" buttons, Web surfing activity and location tracking on mobile devices to figure out what their users like and divine where they are. It's all in aid of showing users ads about products likely to pique their interest at the right time. The companies defend this kind of data mining as a consumer benefit.

In this his June 27, 2012 file photo, Vic Gundotra, Google Senior Vice President of Engineering, talks about Google Plus at the Google I/O conference in San Francisco. The Washington Post and The Guardian reported Thursday, June 6, 2013, the existence of a program used by the NSA and FBI that scours the nation's main Internet companies, extracting audio, video, photographs, emails, documents and connection logs to help analysts track a person's movements and contacts. (AP Photo/Paul Sakuma, File)

Google is trying to take things a step further. It is honing its data analysis and search formulas in an attempt to anticipate what an individual might be wondering about or wanting.

Other Internet companies also use Big Data to improve their services. Video subscription service Netflix takes what it learns from each viewer's preferences to recommend movies and TV shows. Amazon.com Inc. does something similar when it highlights specific products to different shoppers visiting its site.

The federal government has the potential to know even more about people because it controls the world's biggest data bank about U.S. citizens through its collection of federal Social Security numbers, tax returns and health records through Medicare, said David Vladeck, a Georgetown University law professor who recently stepped down as the Federal Trade Commission's consumer protection director.

Before leaving the FTC last year, Vladeck opened an inquiry into the practices of Acxiom and other data brokers because he feared that information was being misinterpreted in ways that unfairly stereotyped people. For instance, someone might be classified as a potential health risk just because he or she bought products linked to increased chance of heart attack. The FTC inquiry into data brokers is still open.

"We had real concerns about the reliability of the data and unfair treatment by algorithm," Vladeck said.

Vladeck stressed he had no reason to believe that the NSA is misinterpreting the data it collects about people. He finds some comfort in The Guardian report that said the Verizon order had been signed by Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court Judge Roger Vinson.

The NSA "differs from a commercial enterprise in the sense that there are checks in the judicial system and in Congress," Vladeck said. "If you believe in the way our government is supposed to work, then you should have some faith that those checks are meaningful. If you are skeptical about government, then you probably don't think that kind of oversight means anything."

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Claudius
3.4 / 5 (13) Jun 07, 2013
Is Big Data turning government into 'Big Brother?'


Is the Pope Catholic?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (8) Jun 07, 2013
"but critics are calling it a huge over-reach"

-while many more see the wisdom in monitoring phone traffic in order to protect this country.

Why is is that we seem to have many threads about the same topic?
Claudius
2.8 / 5 (9) Jun 07, 2013


-while many more see the wisdom in monitoring phone traffic in order to protect this country.



I am sure the wisdom of putting "telescreens" that never turn off in our houses allowing 24/7 surveillance is going to be seen by many as well. It will be seen that way by the NSA, CIA, FBI, Thought Police and others. I wouldn't drink beer with any of them.

So much for wisdom.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (12) Jun 07, 2013
Watch the movie "Lives of Other People".
zaxxon451
3.3 / 5 (7) Jun 07, 2013
Is there any self-fulfilling prophecy more obvious than the "war on terror"? America creates terrorists through it's foreign policy and then repeals the Bill of Rights to protect ourselves from those terrorists.

Follow the money. Who gains the most from our war on terror? The oligarchs pulling the strings of our politicians.
Claudius
3.5 / 5 (13) Jun 07, 2013
Let's see,

We already have the Ministry of Truth: mainstream news, Department of Education, entertainment industry.
We already have the Ministry of Love: Department of Justice
We already have the Ministry of Peace: Defense Department (interesting that war mongers are lately getting the Nobel "Peace" prize.)
We already have room 101: Guantanamo Bay, extraordinary rendition, torture, extrajudicial assassinations.
We already have the Thought Police: NSA, CIA, FBI, etc.

It seems we have always been at war with al Qaeda, but lately they have been helping us with regime change in Lybia, Egypt, Syria, etc.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—forever."
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (8) Jun 07, 2013


-while many more see the wisdom in monitoring phone traffic in order to protect this country.



I am sure the wisdom of putting "telescreens" that never turn off in our houses allowing 24/7 surveillance is going to be seen by many as well. It will be seen that way by the NSA, CIA, FBI, Thought Police and others. I wouldn't drink beer with any of them.

So much for wisdom.
This is not china, or iran, or north korea, or even gbr with cameras on every corner. Lets see how would christopher hitchens pbuh address your attitude? Ah-
http://www.youtub...index=14

-Or this maybe
http://www.youtub...aDKZ-SuE

yah thats a goody
Claudius
2.1 / 5 (7) Jun 07, 2013


yah thats a goody


Jingoism.

Are you a follower of Cecil Rhodes? Know that he was deceived?
Claudius
2.5 / 5 (8) Jun 07, 2013
Quotes from Cecil Rhodes;

"I contend that we are the first race in the world, and that the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race."

"The only thing feasible to carry out this idea is a secret society gradually absorbing the wealth of the world, to be devoted to such an object."

"What scope! What a horizon of work for the next two centuries for the best energies of the best people in the world!"

These wealthy people, Mr. Rhodes thought, would thus be greatly relieved and be able to turn "their ill-gotten or inherited gains to some advantage."

And as a result, we had WWI, the great depression, WWII, the cold war, the war on terror. Leading to Big Brother. The New World Order. Wonderful.

holoman
2.5 / 5 (8) Jun 07, 2013
All be careful what you say here.
geokstr
2.4 / 5 (14) Jun 07, 2013
Is there any self-fulfilling prophecy more obvious than the "war on terror"? America creates terrorists through it's foreign policy and then repeals the Bill of Rights to protect ourselves from those terrorists.

Follow the money. Who gains the most from our war on terror? The oligarchs pulling the strings of our politicians.

Obama has scrubbed the entire record of "terrorism" as it applies to Muslims. You can kill 15 people while yelling "allahu akhbar" and it's now called "workplace violence". The whole Benghazi lie was about protecting the narrative that Obama had stopped "terrorism".

Meanwhile, the DHS has been busy redefining terrorist to mean Tea Parties, returning veterans, conservative groups that think government is out of control.

Vendy must be having an orgasmic thrill up his leg.

The only thing Orwell got wrong was the year.
Claudius
2.7 / 5 (14) Jun 07, 2013
Obama has scrubbed the entire record of "terrorism" as it applies to Muslims.


The mistake is to assume that Presidents are actual leaders. They are just sockpuppets for the real leaders/owners.
ryggesogn2
2.4 / 5 (14) Jun 07, 2013
2+2 = 4, not 5
gwrede
3.2 / 5 (11) Jun 07, 2013
Without efficient and comprehensive access to information, CTU and Jack Bauer could never pull off "24". It would have to be called "18 months", and most of the bad guys would never get caught.

Opposing the NSA is futile. The next obvious step for them is to include data from Wall Mart and other big retailers. And credit card companies. Knowing "what's for dinner tonight" (quote from Terminator-I) can tell a lot more about you.

Now, you could always use cash only, communicate by snail mail letters, or encrypted micro-SD cards in plain envelopes via snail mail. But sooner or later the very act of _not_ being on Facebook nor regularly using a Gmail account, will make you a potential terrorist in their eyes.

I think the EFF is fighting a losing battle here. It'll be interesting to see where all this ends up.
Claudius
2.7 / 5 (12) Jun 07, 2013
"..will make you a potential terrorist in their eyes."

The definition is now so broad that almost everyone is seen as a potential terrorist.
ValeriaT
1.9 / 5 (9) Jun 08, 2013
This case is similar moral problem, like the doubtful ethics of human cloning and genetic manipulations. So far the only reasons, which prohibited their application in wider scope were technical, not legal one. We should be prepared to situation, that at the moment when the technology would allow it, we can forget the concept of human privacy and no legislation could prohibit it. It's a similar problem, like the downloading of warez and "stealing" of multimedia - just from other side: at the moment, when the technology allows it, such a "stealing of private data" is simply tolerated, because it cannot be reliably controlled.

So that the same people, who are "stealing" of private data of multimedia companies routinely shouldn't be surprised, that their government steals the data about their private lives - simply because the technology already enables it. I don't like it, you may not like it too - but this is everything, what we can do against it in this moment...
alfie_null
4.4 / 5 (7) Jun 08, 2013
I just can't get too worked up about this. We have no privacy in our use of data networks - that's news?, The U.S. government as a convenient whipping boy? By the time the government got involved, it already happened.

Can't help but think some people ascribe far too much significance to themselves when they imagine someone at the NSA cares what they as individuals are doing. This is one of the largest employers of mathematicians in the world. What should that tell you?
thingumbobesquire
2.1 / 5 (7) Jun 08, 2013
Question from a new and improved IQ test: How do you know if Obama is lying?
thingumbobesquire
1 / 5 (4) Jun 08, 2013
VendicarE
2.3 / 5 (9) Jun 08, 2013
geokstr- "The whole Benghazi lie" is a Republican Fabrication.
VendicarE
2.5 / 5 (11) Jun 08, 2013
"How do you know if Obama is lying?" - Moron

While he has undoubtedly lied, I know of no such instances.

I am always amused at the Conservative belief that anyone who speaks truth to their lies, is themselves a liar.

Lying of course is the purposeful misstatement of fact.

Facts like claiming that Iraq was behind the 911 bombings and that Iraq had stockpiles of WMD.
VendicarE
2.8 / 5 (11) Jun 08, 2013
"They are just sockpuppets for the real leaders/owners." - ClaudiusTard

America is a corrupt nation run by corrupt corporations.

What this article was really about was an expanded form of corruption in the defense industry.

VendicarE
2.2 / 5 (10) Jun 08, 2013
"Obama has scrubbed the entire record of "terrorism" as it applies to Muslims" - Geokstr

Fox News Covers For White Christian Terrorists

http://www.newsco.../?p=9606
VendicarE
2.7 / 5 (7) Jun 08, 2013
"All be careful what you say here." - holoman

Coward
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (11) Jun 08, 2013
hello claw-claw
And as a result, we had WWI, the great depression, WWII, the cold war, the war on terror. Leading to Big Brother. The New World Order. Wonderful
-And so you think that without those wars and economic collapses the world would have remained peaceful and pleasant?

War has always been Inevitable. Without war there would STILL be war. Without economic collapse there would STILL BE economic collapse.

Malthus told you WHY this happens but he was only conveying a Lesson that was learned long long ago. Prosperity always causes populations to grow faster than they can provide the means to feed themselves. And so there would always be that generation born in relative peace which would find themselves beginning to starve at a very young age.

Evidence suggests that rhodes was only one more lieutenant in a long line of Recruits. The Empire can select from the very cleverest and most capable of each generation, to enact Its Will.

And Its Will is Survival and Preservation.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (9) Jun 08, 2013
Lat us revisit those thrilling days of yesteryear
http://www.youtub...m9qrL1Wc

-Easy to be a Prophet when you know the People who are Preparing it for you, isnt it?

Claw-claw youre such a brute
http://www.youtub...SmuKpAQY
djr
5 / 5 (3) Jun 08, 2013
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—forever."

I disagree with this assessment. I do feel that the data mining programs, and also the IRS situation here in the U.S. are very troublesome - and we should be concerned about privacy issues, and an out of control government. I guess we should be grateful for courageous journalists like Greenwald for being willing to take risks in exposing these stories. Overall I feel that we are evolving as a species - and moving towards a time when war and militarism will wayne - and we will understand the primary importance of science and knowledge. I do agree with the assessments here that the president is very much controlled by external (to the president) forces - which is why we need to keep checks and balances like a vibrant media alive - and also look to decentralizing as much as we can (ie. local food production, energy production, economies etc.)
VendicarE
3 / 5 (6) Jun 08, 2013
Once again A Cancer that is destoying America originated with the Republican Reagan Administration.

The Information Awareness Office was established after Admiral John Poindexter, former United States National Security Advisor to President Ronald Reagan and SAIC executive Brian Hicks approached the US Department of Defense with the idea for an information awareness program and chief architect of the Iran-Contra Affair,.after the attacks of September 11, 2001
VendicarE
2.7 / 5 (7) Jun 08, 2013
Total Information Awareness - the Republican wet dream.

Reuters has obtained a Congressional report that shows nine months after Congress shut down the controversial Pentagon computer-surveillance program called Total Information Awareness, the U.S. government continues to comb private records and databases to sniff out suspicious activity. Peter Swire, who served as the Clinton administration's top official said "I believe that Total Information Awareness is continuing under other names."—reported by Democracy Now!, June 3, 2004.
VendicarE
3.2 / 5 (9) Jun 08, 2013
"I wouldn't drink beer with any of them." - ClaudiusTard

Would you drink beer with the corrupt Criminal Republican Ronald Reagan or the corrupt, criminal Repubican John Poindexter?

They started the Total Information Awareness program that you are whining about.

VendicarE
3.2 / 5 (9) Jun 08, 2013
"communicate by snail mail letters" - Gwrede

Incorrect. The U.S. post office has been intercepting and recording each piece of U.S. mail for decades.

I remember reading a story in the 1970's where a little girl wanted to learn about foreign countries, so she sent a letter to the leader of each country asking him/her about their nation and people.

She noticed the responses started to come back redacted and incomplete. With a short time she was visited by U.S. Government operatives to investigate her potential crimes.

This has been America for a very long time.

Americans are simply too stupid to know it.
VendicarE
3.3 / 5 (7) Jun 08, 2013
"2+2 = 4, not 5" - RyggTard

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Hence 2 + 2 = 8.

Money has similar properties due to opportunity costs and guaranteed interest.

You would think that a worthless Randite money grubber like RyggTard would know better.

VendicarE
3.3 / 5 (7) Jun 08, 2013
"http://thingumbob...-of.html" - Incoherent, logically infantile, Claptrap.
VendicarE
2.8 / 5 (9) Jun 08, 2013
"Meanwhile, the DHS has been busy redefining terrorist to mean Tea Parties, returning veterans, conservative groups that think government is out of control." - Geokstr

It is wise to label those potential terrorist groups as potential terrorists.

It is also wise to target tax protesters for auditing in order to assure that they are paying their taxes.

Are Republicans the dumbest, most corrupt Americans who have ever existed?

Yup.

casualjoe
3.3 / 5 (7) Jun 09, 2013

Are Republicans the dumbest, most corrupt Americans who have ever existed?


Yup.
DavidW
1 / 5 (8) Jun 09, 2013
"How do you know if Obama is lying?" - Moron

While he has undoubtedly lied, I know of no such instances.

I am always amused at the Conservative belief that anyone who speaks truth to their lies, is themselves a liar.

Lying of course is the purposeful misstatement of fact.

Facts like claiming that Iraq was behind the 911 bombings and that Iraq had stockpiles of WMD.


From my witness on TV, Obama took an oath to uphold the law.

I have heard that in the leaked documents/cables on Wikileaks that Japan request the USA to revoke the Sea Shepard's non-profit status. From what I hear from some of them, they say that their status has been targeted (before hearing the news of the Tea Party targeting was disclosed) and that they are indeed facing financial trouble as a result.

The USA agreed to the law banning whale slaughter. Not upholding the law is a violation of oath and indeed a lie. What say you?

Obama is going to have to see that the truth and life are most important.
VendicarE
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 09, 2013
" Not upholding the law is a violation of oath and indeed a lie. What say you?" - DavidW

Specifically which law is being violated. You must be specific, and specific in the legal methods the U.S. government is using because law is always self contradictory to some extent. Upholding one my violate another. Further, law can be contested, or extended, which typically results in one or more lawsuits and a final decision being made by the court as to what is actually legal.

You may or may not like the decision, but in terms of lying, you haven't even begun to make your case.

VendicarE
3.7 / 5 (6) Jun 09, 2013
" Obama is going to have to see that the truth and life are most important." - DavidW

That is something that most people have to learn.

When do you think the corporations who rule America will learn it?

How do you plan to teach them?
SmokedBort
1 / 5 (2) Jun 09, 2013
Can't really call something "invasive" if it takes seven years to notice it.
DavidW
1 / 5 (7) Jun 09, 2013
That is something that most people have to learn.


Yes, everyone. That's where having each other comes in real handy.


How do you plan to teach them?


By reminding others of the truths we hold common and that truth is the teacher.


Endangered Species Act


Taking action to help others violate our own laws is NOT upholding our law. But then again, perhaps he will take shelter in saying/not saying he didn't know what was going just like with the Tea Party stuff. Regardless of what laws are in place, we all must uphold that rights are based on self-evident truths and the commonsense reality they represent. The life dying right now doesn't have the time to wait for those that protest the truth to die off and many of us might face that prospect if we don't push the extra mile too. Acceptance, hard work, and humility all around -in truth- and -for the truth- in life, is the only way out. We must take responsibility together and stand together to solve the issues.

Kedas
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 10, 2013
Can't really call something "invasive" if it takes seven years to notice it.

It's much easier to manipulate someone if they don't know they are manipulated.
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (27) Jun 10, 2013
"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Franklin

What the great B Franklin meant by that, is that there are always 'justifiable' reasons for government to be invasive, to regulate behavior, to tax and ban into submission, ... all for the 'greater good', but at the cost of individual liberty. The reasons are as 'rational' and 'fact based' as they are abhorrent to a free society.

Yet many on the political right don't seem to have a problem with it, while many on the far left are even against Obama on this issue,... despite Gov Intrusiveness being perfectly inline with 'progressive liberal' mentality.

There are also many on the left who are simply political hypocrites, that had enormous problems when Bush wanted to tap phone calls Originating from foreign countries, but have no problems with the gov having near carte blanche now.

The far left need to understand, THIS IS WHAT PROGRESSIVE LIBERALISM IS!!
holoman
1 / 5 (4) Jun 10, 2013
VendicarE

Chill Brother.

Its called irony.
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (27) Jun 10, 2013
.... there are many on the Right who have no problem with this, and some who are against it. There are many on the Left who have no problem with this, and some who are against it. It would appear to be a non-political issue therefore,... but should not be if the respective political spectrum was consistent.

The Huffington post zombies who are up in arms against the NSA collecting personal data are either hypocrites or are politically illiterate, over what 'progressive liberalism' actually IS, taken to its logical conclusion. Big gov control and coerciveness.

A similar comment could be stated concerning the political right and those who have no issues with this.

beleg
1 / 5 (3) Jun 10, 2013
(...an oath...) - DW
is a gesture. Extremists label oaths a token of faith.
You can't violate a gesture or a token.
The fail-safe is immunity.
djr
5 / 5 (5) Jun 10, 2013
"despite Gov Intrusiveness being perfectly inline with 'progressive liberal' mentality."

Oh sure - and those on the right are so consistent!!! Ban gay marriage! ban smoking pot! no anal intercourse in Texas - that is immoral! institute government endorsed religion!

This is not a left/right issue. Who passed the patriot act? This is an issue of government intrusion, and the right is just as comfortable with big government intrusion as the left. You live in Fox news land.

Do you realize that Glen Greenwald is a well known - left wing journalist - writing for the Gaurdian? Yeah - where was Fox news in breaking this story?
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (28) Jun 10, 2013
"despite Gov Intrusiveness being perfectly inline with 'progressive liberal' mentality."


Oh sure - and those on the right are so consistent!!! Ban gay marriage! ban smoking pot! no anal intercourse in Texas - that is immoral! institute government endorsed religion!


You are entirely correct here that, (except for libertarians), some on the political right have some inconsistencies. However, it is just that, an Inconsistency, as in Counter to the promotion of limited government and individual liberty and freedom of choice, as are the general principals of conservatism. Contrast that with progressive liberals who agree with Obama about NSA collecting personal data,.. they're being Consistent in their ideology.
djr
5 / 5 (3) Jun 10, 2013
So Noumenon - what do make of the fact that the Patriot act was passed - under Bush - with almost total approval of both sides of congress? It was folks on the left that objected to the Patriot act (unless you think Michael Moore is a libertarian). Glenn Greenwald and the Guardian are on the left. Nixon was a right win Republican - responsible for Watergate, and it was the left wing evil media who exposed him. I think you live in black and white land - and don't understand the complexities of our world. It is easier to blather on about liberals, and progressives - than to see where power truly lays - in the hands of the big financial lobbies.
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (28) Jun 10, 2013
This is not a left/right issue. Who passed the patriot act? This is an issue of government intrusion, and the right is just as comfortable with big government intrusion as the left.


Nope, the fundamental principal of American conservatism is LIMITED GOVERNMENT, except for defense purposes, (where I don't think the NSA data grab applies). Progressive liberalism calls for expanded government in pursuit of social justice for inequalities, collectivism and the welfare state, Obama care, etc

As I said it SHOULD be a right/left issue, if the respective parties are to be consistent. Again the patriot act only spooled data from calls originating from suspect countries,... and Obama and the left were against that at the time, vocally. Now he has expanded it to include ALL call data even within the USA and internet, etc. guantanamo bay is still open, and Obama is using drones. He should openly apologize to G.W.Bush.
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (27) Jun 10, 2013
So Noumenon - what do make of the fact that the Patriot act was passed - under Bush - with almost total approval of both sides of congress? It was folks on the left that objected to the Patriot act (unless you think Michael Moore is a libertarian). Glenn Greenwald and the Guardian are on the left. [...] think you live in black and white land - and don't understand the complexities of our world. It is easier to blather on about liberals, and progressives - than to see where power truly lays - in the hands of the big financial lobbies.


It's even easier to blather on vaguely about "big financial lobbies" and corporate greed meaninglessly. I'm speaking of political philosophy that the respective sides claim differentiates them.

The Patriot act was a rational means of countering terrorism. Again it was focused on call's originating from suspect countries not ALL calls. This massive data grab is unnecessary.
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (28) Jun 10, 2013
Yes I know the left objected to the patriot act. My point is that if the far left are to be consistent, they should, like Obama, have little issue with this NSA snooping, as that is in line with Big Gov intrusion, which is intrinsic to being a 'progressive liberal' to begin with,... i.e. redistribution of wealth, gov control over health care, the education system, unions, collectivism, victim groups, etc.

And as you said, the Patriot act was voted on in congress, while this massive data collection was not.
Shelgeyr
2.1 / 5 (7) Jun 10, 2013
Is Big Data turning government into 'Big Brother'?

Yes.
Next question?
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (28) Jun 10, 2013
The NSA "differs from a commercial enterprise in the sense that there are checks in the judicial system and in Congress," Vladeck said. "If you believe in the way our government is supposed to work, then you should have some faith that those checks are meaningful. If you are skeptical about government, then you probably don't think that kind of oversight means anything."


Vladeck is being dishonest here, by not mentioning the recent IRS scandle, where we just witnessed an example where the government misused data to target people for their political affiliation.
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (28) Jun 10, 2013
geokstr- "The whole Benghazi lie" is a Republican Fabrication. - Commie VendicarE


The notion that republicans fabricated "the Benghazi lie" is itself, a lie. The facts are that the Obama administration, astonishingly, blamed freedom of speech, for that attack (the video). That was a outright lie to appease muslims in stupidly acknowledging a "justification" to them for that act.
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (29) Jun 10, 2013
Facts like claiming that Iraq was behind the 911 bombings and that Iraq had stockpiles of WMD. - Commie VendicarE


No one ever claimed that Iraq was involved in 911. Stop making things up. The existence of WMD's in Iraq is a matter of documented fact. The question was over the destruction of them which the UN required Saddam to demonstrate having done. He did not do so. G.W. Bush and the majority of Dem's who voted for that war, were not responsible for there being or not being WMD's in Iraq,... only Saddam was. We only know now Saddam got rid of them because we went in. It was simply NOT possible to allow that ambiguity to exist post 911. That is the link.
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (27) Jun 10, 2013
"Meanwhile, the DHS has been busy redefining terrorist to mean Tea Parties, returning veterans, conservative groups that think government is out of control." - Geokstr


It is wise to label those potential terrorist groups as potential terrorists.


As usual your posts make zero sense and are full of over the top cartoon like lies. Being against big gov (not the idea of gov) and wasteful and inefficient gov spending, in no way equates to "potential terrorists". The tea party simply want fiscal accountability before more tax increases. Pure logic and rationality,.... freedom of assembly... not terrorism. LOL.

It is wise to label as potential (terrorists) criminals any group who organizes for that purpose, like the flash mobs stealing from dept stores (Obama voters).
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (28) Jun 10, 2013
[wrt recent IRS scandal] It is also wise to target tax protesters for auditing in order to assure that they are paying their taxes.

Are Republicans the dumbest, most corrupt Americans who have ever existed? - Commie VendicarE


No, but seems you are. Those groups obviously followed the law by applying for tax exempt status in the first place, otherwise they wouldn't get donations, you bonehead. The IRS targeted those people not because they suspected they weren't paying their taxes,... but because they were conservative, period. If you don't think freedom of thought should exist in a free society, then you are deranged or are an imbecile.

Conservatism and libertarianism are a rational and legitimate political philosophy which is obviously historically engrained in western civilization,... not of lies, corruption, and stupidity as you put it. Until you admit this, you will remain a disinterested internet troll, of which even a fourteen year could qualify.
djr
5 / 5 (2) Jun 10, 2013
Noumenon: "It's even easier to blather on vaguely about "big financial lobbies" and corporate greed meaninglessly. I'm speaking of political philosophy that the respective sides claim differentiates them."

No it is not - I think that understanding the roots of power within a system is critical. Blathering on about political philosophies, throwing around jargon - is far less meaningful in my world. It is just childish on your part to continually toss around insults - and to show that you don't have the complexity to understand the world the way it is. Federal spending increases under every administration (probably of every country in the world) because that is the nature of gvt. Rand Paul -the darling of the tea party - reversed his support for banning ear marks - because he wanted his share of the money.

"Conservatism and libertarianism are a rational and legitimate political philosophy" Agreed - as are socialism, and communism etc. - demonizing the enemy is the problem.
ValeriaT
1 / 5 (4) Jun 10, 2013
Edward Snowden, NSA files source: 'If they want to get you, in time they will' 'I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things'
drhoo
1 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2013
666==www
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (28) Jun 10, 2013
Federal spending increases under every administration (probably of every country in the world) because that is the nature of gvt.


Exactly, its inherent in government to be fiscally irresponsible. That is why gov should be limited as is the political philosophy of conservatives, but not the left. Would you like to compare gov spending under Obama vrs bush (who was a big spender in his own right and thus NOT an ideal conservative)? Not even close. Or how about comparing # on disability and welfare. Political philosophy of course make a difference. Not debatable. Being against corporate influence is what is pointless because we exist in a capitalist country, its going to occur. Limit gov if you don't like it, but you can't get rid of corporations and their motivation to influence gov. Stop being naive.
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (28) Jun 10, 2013
Conservatism and libertarianism are a rational and legitimate political philosophy"
Agreed - as are socialism, and communism etc. - demonizing the enemy is the problem.


Why are you telling me that? I just said above that the motivation for increased gov control are reasons that are "rational" and "fact based" (though are counter to free society). Where did I demonize? I just adminished VendicarE for having done so. Did you not have an issue with his comment wrt conservatives?
djr
5 / 5 (3) Jun 10, 2013
"Exactly, its inherent in government to be fiscally irresponsible." Correct - and as you have pointed out yourself - that fiscal irresponsibility is not unique to one party, or another. Neither is Gvt over reach (see the Nixon example). So to automatically scream that it is the liberals/progressives is just childish name calling. It is the nature of organizations to perpetuate themselves. I guess you don't see the hypocrocy in just calling out the liberals - and not recognizing that it is endemic in government. If anything - it sounds to me as if your position could be interpreted to be saying 'at least the progressives are consistent - they behave in accord with their values - the conservatives say one thing - and do another.'
djr
5 / 5 (3) Jun 10, 2013
"Why are you telling me that?" Well - there is a point in there. In other parts of the world - different political philosophies are respected - and discussed in an open, and healthy way. At the college I went to in England - there was a communist, a socialist, a labor, and a conservative club - and we used to have very robust debates. Several here on physorg seem to be very American - and to want to introduce a lot of vitriole into the discusssion - really demonizing the liberals/progressives/socialists. That's all!
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (27) Jun 11, 2013
"Exactly, its inherent in government to be fiscally irresponsible."


Correct - and as you have pointed out yourself - that fiscal irresponsibility is not unique to one party, or another. [...] So to automatically scream that it is the liberals/progressives is just childish name calling.


It IS unique to one parties stated PRINCIPALS, conservative = limited gov, liberal = expanded gov,... whether each political philosophy is satisfied completely in any particular individual in the respective party is another matter. Please understand the difference between republican and conservative, democrat and liberal. There are democrats that are fiscally responsible and there are republicans that are socially liberal.

The difference was at work in the 2010 elections where the grass root conservatives swept out many democrats and useless republicans.

And its not "name calling",.. its what 'progressive liberal' and 'conservative' mean.
Noumenon
1.4 / 5 (28) Jun 11, 2013
It is the nature of organizations to perpetuate themselves. I guess you don't see the hypocrocy in just calling out the liberals - and not recognizing that it is endemic in government.


You just quoted me as saying its inherent in gov, and now you say I don't recognize that fact?! I'm calling out liberals because it is them that want Expanded gov by their own admission, while it is conservatives who want Limited gov for the very reasons you have sited.

If anything - it sounds to me as if your position could be interpreted to be saying 'at least the progressives are consistent - they behave in accord with their values - the conservatives say one thing - and do another.'


If you are going to respond to posts at least have the decency to read them. I've admitted multiple times above that some on the right are not being consistent. The left are not being consistent if they're upset over this because 'progressive liberalism' IS gov intrusiveness to begin with.
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (27) Jun 11, 2013
"Why are you telling me that?" Well - there is a point in there. In other parts of the world - different political philosophies are respected - and discussed in an open, and healthy way. Several here on physorg seem to be very American - and to want to introduce a lot of vitriole into the discusssion - really demonizing the liberals/progressives/socialists. That's all!


Yes, discussions should be respectful, but meaningful as well. Which means it is pointless to bring up individual instances as if to imply there is really no difference between the various political philosophies that guide them. There is. Stating the position held by liberal progressives is not vitriol, it is fact.

If YOU see and admit the problem is inherent in gov itself, then it stands to reason that YOU would gravitate towards the conservative (American) political philosophy and desire to limit it as much as is practical to do, rather than defending liberals and socialists.
djr
5 / 5 (3) Jun 11, 2013
If YOU see and admit the problem is inherent in gov itself, then it stands to reason that YOU would gravitate towards the conservative (American) political philosophy and desire to limit it as much as is practical to do, rather than defending liberals and socialists.

You just keep missing the whole point. Yes - I would like to see smaller - less intrusive government. No - that does not make me a conservative. If that were the case - you could see a pattern in history - where conservative gvts shrink, and liberal governments grow. But as we have agreed - governments just grow. So it is not a marker of conservatism that they shrink government - any more than it is a marker of progressivism. So - each time you start hand waving about the wonderful conservatives who want to shrink gvt - you are showing that you do not understand reality. I do not have a political label that works for me - perhaps libertarian - but you see - libertarians don't answer tough questions - like cont.
djr
5 / 5 (3) Jun 11, 2013
cont. what should we do about gangs in the inner city. So my main critique of your kind of commenting - is that you are stuck in labels - everything can be answered by insulting someone by calling them a socialist - and you do not propose solutions for the real problems facing our world. I think science offers us the best hope of developing solutions - which is why I read a science board every day.
kochevnik
1.7 / 5 (6) Jun 13, 2013
@Neurotard No one ever claimed that Iraq was involved in 911. Stop making things up. The existence of WMD's in Iraq is a matter of documented fact.
Your BS belongs on Fux Newz, not a science site
Noumenon
1.4 / 5 (28) Jun 14, 2013
@Neurotard No one ever claimed that Iraq was involved in 911. Stop making things up. The existence of WMD's in Iraq is a matter of documented fact.
Your BS belongs on Fux Newz, not a science site


Both statements are factual. Your ad hominem response belongs at huffington post and msnbc, not at a science site.
antialias_physorg
3.4 / 5 (5) Jun 14, 2013
I think science offers us the best hope of developing solutions

I love science - but I'm a bit sceptical on this.
Science can give us the tools but solutions lie with people. (Because like any tool: it depends on the one using it whether it'll help or be destructive).

Solutions will only come about if we have the mindset to work for the betterment of all - instead of short term profit for some.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (4) Jun 14, 2013
Science can give us the tools but solutions lie with people. (Because like any tool: it depends on the one using it whether it'll help or be destructive)
blahblah wakawaka

People havent changed at all in recorded history. People have been using technology to substitute for our critical flaws which will never change.

Tech keeps us honest and healthy in spite of ourselves, because despite our best efforts we have not been able to improve our natures much at all. Millenia of domestication has only pproduced a very very small percentage within each generation who can be considered civil, rational, and relatively sane. Luckily it is these people who are in Charge.

Tech will begin replacing those most critically defective parts within us - our livers, kidneys, immune systems, brains - until the pristine human being is a discarded form factor.

'I dont have a body - I AM a body.' -hitchens

We are the last of our kind.
Noumenon
1.4 / 5 (29) Jun 14, 2013
I think science offers us the best hope of developing solutions

I love science - but I'm a bit sceptical on this.
Science can give us the tools but solutions lie with people. [..]

Solutions will only come about if we have the mindset to work for the betterment of all - instead of short term profit for some.


Sorry, you are wrong. The exact opposite has proven to be the case.

If you love science, as I do, you will not let a naive moral idealism cloud your understanding of the actual natural forces at play. Human behavior can be analyzed scientifically and understood in terms of motive forces.

For example, the mechanism that has improved standards of living and life expectancy has NOT been a concerted and planned effort to do so "for the benefit of mankind",.... but rather individual instances of innovators seeking personal advantage in one form or other, and consumer choice based purely egoistically.
Noumenon
1.4 / 5 (29) Jun 14, 2013
,.... Individualism, egoism, profit motive, and freedom of choice to express these natural survival instincts in the arena of free market capitalism,... has been the savior of mankind.

'Planned society' has been the great evil of humanity, costing millions of lives, operating counter to human nature. They thought they knew better then too.
antialias_physorg
4 / 5 (8) Jun 14, 2013
,.... Individualism, egoism, profit motive, and freedom of choice to express these natural survival instincts

They do so within a forgiving ecosystem.
Currently we're messing with the ecosystem - so the situation we are facing is somewhat different. There's no profit in species survival for the individual (profit only works if you can create a differential. Species survival is a universal).
The current crisis is one where egoism is in direct conflict with species survival.

blahblah wakawaka

Nice argument. You know - you're right. I think I'll rephrase my arguments in terms of words you can understand in the future:
blllllllllphphph.
Better?

Just keep out of the discussion, please. This is for grown-ups.
Noumenon
1.4 / 5 (28) Jun 14, 2013
Currently we're messing with the ecosystem - so the situation we are facing is somewhat different. [...]
The current crisis is one where egoism is in direct conflict with species survival.


That AGW threatens life on this planet to the point of crisis, is not scientific fact, only unsubstantiated hyperbole. Humanities egoistic element requires a tangible cause to react to, not pie in the sky theories. Even AlGore doesn't self-regulate his energy use as if humanity was in crisis.

Your mechanism of "convincing the masses" to voluntarily return to the stone age or change their behavior, will not work. The only other alternative is gov coercion, force, and planned society. History has shown as "scientific" fact, this lead to millions of deaths, and the vast majority of humanity would rather "go down with the ship", than submit their basic nature to gov oppression.
Noumenon
1.6 / 5 (28) Jun 14, 2013
... I think this discussion jumped threads somehow.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (5) Jun 14, 2013
,.... Individualism, egoism, profit motive, and freedom of choice to express these natural survival instincts

They do so within a forgiving ecosystem.
Currently we're messing with the ecosystem - so the situation we are facing is somewhat different. There's no profit in species survival for the individual (profit only works if you can create a differential. Species survival is a universal).
The current crisis is one where egoism is in direct conflict with species survival.

blahblah wakawaka

Nice argument. You know - you're right. I think I'll rephrase my arguments in terms of words you can understand in the future:
blllllllllphphph.
Better?

Just keep out of the discussion, please. This is for grown-ups.
Then stop posting infantile eurodisney sentiment please
http://www.youtub...zVgXy7QE
Noumenon
1.4 / 5 (29) Jun 14, 2013
,... also realize that the earth can support many more humans, as the world population continues to grow. Even worse for AGW is that 3rd world economies are growing as well and as a consequence will use ever more carbon based energy due to lack of cheap alternatives. It would be easier to hold back the ocean that to prevent this inevitability.

The problem will solve itself because oil will become more expensive as use increases. This will occur gradually. If oil becomes more expensive it will "level the playing field" for alternative energy markets. They will be able to compete. There will be potential for profit for alternatives then.
beleg
1 / 5 (5) Jun 15, 2013
Big Brother's sister is litigation
She is busy bearing children right now.
She's not marry. Her children are bastards.
beleg
1 / 5 (5) Jun 15, 2013
marry=married (typo)
Upon marrying her children are legitimatized.
beleg
1 / 5 (5) Jun 15, 2013
Don't force us against your will. You know how that plays out every time.
djr
5 / 5 (4) Jun 15, 2013
Antialias: "Solutions will only come about if we have the mindset to work for the betterment of all - instead of short term profit for some."

I agree with you - which is why pure science is cool to watch. Scientific advance - and the profit motive can be compatible. Look at solar technology. It is fast closing on parity with other energy sources - http://cleantechn...entskwh/ So science has brought us the technology - and business will solve the problem of C02 emissions. Of course there are doomsday scenarios - and we have to watch for the abuse of power problems (eg. Nazis). Don't you think the concern in that regard is reducing as we move forward? A nuclear terrorist is still of course a huge concern.
djr
5 / 5 (4) Jun 15, 2013
Noumenon: "That AGW threatens life on this planet to the point of crisis, is not scientific fact"

Define scientific fact (especially as it relates to predicting the future). Do you not think we should be studying our planet - and making sure we understand it to the best of our ability? Do you not agree that global warming has the POTENTIAL to give us some nasty surprises? Please read this article - http://www.truthd...0130608/

So who do we listen to? The scientists, or the ideologues who spam physorg - and seem to be to be saying 'Well until it actually reaches crisis proportions - we want to put our heads in the sand and ignore it'
antialias_physorg
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 15, 2013
Then stop posting infantile eurodisney sentiment please

I see you brought all your old sockpuppets out for a down-voting spree. Seems I was spot-on on who is infantile her. Thanks for making my point for me.
Noumenon
1.5 / 5 (29) Jun 16, 2013
Scientific advance - and the profit motive can be compatible. Look at solar technology. It is fast closing on parity with other energy sources - So science has brought us the technology - and business will solve the problem of C02 emissions

I'm glad to see there is room for us to agree. As I said many times, I'm all for reducing co2 emissions,.... just not via gov coercion and intrusiveness. Let the markets and consumers naturally decide the next energy source. Gov 'planning' has never worked in a way compatible with liberty.

and we have to watch for the abuse of power problems (eg. [socialist big gov] Nazis). Don't you think the concern in that regard is reducing as we move forward?


In fact it is increasing. The far left do not respect the constitution. They think of it as a "living and breathing document" as Obama would say. The entire point of a constitution written in stone, is exactly to prevent such liberal relativism.
Noumenon
1.4 / 5 (28) Jun 16, 2013
Define scientific fact (especially as it relates to predicting the future).


Scientific experimental verification. This can apply to the core physics underlying AGW to be sure,... but NOT the "cataclysmic" alarmist predictions. That is conjecture. The models have not in fact predicted the leveling off of global temp increase of the last 15 years, and is approaching the point of demonstrating a lack of understanding as apposed to the fraud of complete understanding to 0.10* per decade that the far left policy makers propagandize.

Do you not think we should be studying our planet - and making sure we understand it to the best of our ability? Do you not agree that global warming has the POTENTIAL to give us some nasty surprises?


Yes, and yes (although I think the negative potential has been a presumption, while theoretically could be a good thing for humanity).
Noumenon
1.4 / 5 (29) Jun 16, 2013
So who do we listen to? The scientists, or the ideologues who spam physorg - and seem to be to be saying 'Well until it actually reaches crisis proportions - we want to put our heads in the sand and ignore it'


It's not even entirely clear what the distinction is between climate scientists and far-left ideologues,... irrespective of the far right ideologues who reject what 97% of climate scientists say. When you get into attributing 5mph of hurricanes to AGW, and proclaiming global cataclysm if the UN does not control global redistribution of wealth and control of energy use by next tuesday, then you have ideologues posing as scientists posing as charlatans.
Noumenon
1.4 / 5 (28) Jun 16, 2013
ideologues saying 'Well until it actually reaches crisis proportions - we want to put our heads in the sand and ignore it


That's not what is being stated. There is nothing presently to even ignore. There has to be something to react to, for people to change their behavior and for the markets to then react to, otherwise you must implement government control of and artificial tinkering of the markets, redistribution of wealth, and social engineering on a massive scale.

The threshold point where the 'collective genius' of mankind buys into the AGW 'cataclysmic' propaganda, and their willingness to give up basic liberties, freedom of choice, and capitalism, has not been reached.

Once oil becomes expensive, as it inevitably will sooner rather than later, it will open up markets for investment in alternatives for transportation. That will only come about when the masses have something tangible to react to; high gas prices and a cheaper alternative.
Noumenon
1.4 / 5 (28) Jun 16, 2013
The 4th amendment.... "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, PAPERS, AND EFFECTS, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, [except] upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

We see HERE that the NSA has admitted to trampling over the constitution. The 4th admendment does not apply to the masses as a whole all at once, but to individuals one at a time.

Now it is not just a matter of raw phone numbers and times data,... now they admit it is CONTENT of phone calls and presumably emails etc.
Noumenon
1.4 / 5 (28) Jun 16, 2013
and we have to watch for the abuse of power problems (eg. Nazis). Don't you think the concern in that regard is reducing as we move forward? - djr


As I've shown above with the NSA, it is not reducing, but increasing. 'Progressive' liberalism is the "in" thing among huffington post members and the OWS types. It always morally "sounds good" to the uninitiated, ...to be against "evil corporations", "greedy profit", "the rich", and helping people without personal effort, ......so it easily convinces mentally young people and they can walk away thinking they're righteous for being far left.
Noumenon
1.5 / 5 (29) Jun 16, 2013
...You mentioned the Nazis. History tends to repeat itself, if the lesson is not understood. Now the terms "conservative" and "liberal" are relative in history to time and place. This is why some mistakenly associate Nazis with present conservatives and present liberalism with liberty.

The Nazis were far-left big gov control socialists, like present day [far left] liberalism, not present day conservatives. They implemented what the previous generation of German socialists were unwilling to, because the only way to take socialism to its ideological conclusion is through force and coercion with loss of liberty.
djr
5 / 5 (4) Jun 16, 2013
"There is nothing presently to even ignore."

Then you have not been following the science. Look at the article I referenced. There is certainly plenty of information coming out to tell us we need to be paying attention.
Noumenon
1.4 / 5 (30) Jun 16, 2013
"There is nothing presently to even ignore."

Then you have not been following the science. Look at the article I referenced. There is certainly plenty of information coming out to tell us we need to be paying attention.


In context, I said there is nothing [tangible] to ignore and react to, i.e. theories and speculation is evidently not enough.
djr
5 / 5 (4) Jun 16, 2013
In context, I said there is nothing [tangible] to ignore and react to, i.e. theories and speculation is evidently not enough.

You brush my point off in a very cavalier manner. Again - you clearly did not read the science article I referenced. If you took a minute to read this article - or many others like it being put out by science - you would understand the absurdity of saying that there is nothing 'tangible' to ignore. There is certainly plenty that is tangible - and telling us we should be paying attention. I think that you have put political ideology ahead of reason - very similar to religious thinking - and it is pointless to even try to dialogue - when are perspectives are so different.
Noumenon
1.1 / 5 (29) Jun 16, 2013
There is nothing tangible for the masses to react to that would be geared toward reducing CO2 in their immediate lives. If there was, we wouldn't have the supposed problem. I'm just stating a fact, and it has nothing to do with lack of "education". Even my goldfish has heard of AGW.

I'm not even disagreeing that putting up tons of co2 has an effect and that there is something to AGW if the experts say so.

There is no http://www.forbes...-crisis/ even among general scientists over Cataclysmic Alarmist AGW, mush less the masses.
Noumenon
1.1 / 5 (28) Jun 16, 2013
EDIT

There is no http://www.forbes...crisis/, even among general scientists over Cataclysmic Alarmist AGW, much less the masses.

kochevnik
2.9 / 5 (8) Jun 17, 2013
This is not a left/right issue. Who passed the patriot act? This is an issue of government intrusion, and the right is just as comfortable with big government intrusion as the left.


Nope, the fundamental principal of American conservatism is LIMITED GOVERNMENT,
No the objective of conservatism is preserving the established hierarchy and power structures. There is no conservation only hoarding. The name was chosen after "Torry" became synonymous with crime and cronyism

USA can't fix real infrastructure. Wasting $trillions on electronic infrastructure simply proves what a pathetic joke America has become. All the next president needs to do is turn the key and he will have a fascist homeland Hitler dreamed of. Now that South America has awakened to US fascist tactics, as taught in School of the Americas, the USA must prey upon it's own people who are too naive to resist
casualjoe
4.2 / 5 (5) Jun 17, 2013
EDIT
Noumenon - even among general scientists over Cataclysmic Alarmist AGW, much less the masses.

You post such utter garbage. In future please just take a little bit of extra time and care to check what you're posting before making a complete tit of yourself. A bit of time and care goes a long way towards making better decisions too.

Noumenon
1.2 / 5 (25) Jun 17, 2013
EDIT
Noumenon - even among general scientists over Cataclysmic Alarmist AGW, much less the masses.

You post such utter garbage. In future please just take a little bit of extra time and care to check what you're posting before making a complete tit of yourself. A bit of time and care goes a long way towards making better decisions too.



Your post is nothing more than subjective opinion, devoid of counterpoint, and so, useless. I guess you found that kocknevik's post made sense? Fraud.

I'm making the distinction between over blown cataclysmic AGW predictions as crisis for all humanity and believing AGW is scientifically valid but not a threat to mankinds existence. Clearly there are some who propagandize the former position, in order to promote change in the form of gov and regulation of capitalism and consumption.
casualjoe
5 / 5 (4) Jun 17, 2013
My counterpoint was the link in your post, it IS garbage from the heartland institute who are funded by industry well known for exploiting the planet. You play right into their hands.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (4) Jun 17, 2013
Then stop posting infantile eurodisney sentiment please

I see you brought all your old sockpuppets out for a down-voting spree. Seems I was spot-on on who is infantile her. Thanks for making my point for me.
Sorry that must have been someone who resents having nothing useful or intelligent to say, and so tries to cause trouble to compensate.

Wasn't me. And I don't lie.

But like anyone else if you post lazy crap you get challenged. You should appreciate this as a chance to grow.
casualjoe
5 / 5 (3) Jun 17, 2013
Ok I got a little angry after reading the link that was posted and reacted in a reactionary way without reading the entire thread, so probably need to take some of my own advice.
Noumenon
1.3 / 5 (29) Jun 17, 2013
My counterpoint was the link in your post, it IS garbage from the heartland institute who are funded by industry well known for exploiting the planet. You play right into their hands.


If it is valid for you to regard the posted link as 'garbage' on account of their apparent bias, then it is valid for me to regard cataclysmic alarmism and proposed anti-capitalism solutions from 'progressive liberals' as politically bias and thus garbage.

The link only reported on, a peer-reviewed survey that again, made the distinction between 'global warming crisis', and 'global warming'.

If you don't think that there was a concerted effort to use AGW as a foot-in-the-door, in support of far left anti-capitalism politics, then you simply have not paid attention. And this has zero to do with believing or not believing in AGW.
casualjoe
5 / 5 (3) Jun 17, 2013
It may not seem cataclysmic to you, but to many of the worlds poorest, it will ruin their lives.

I see a lot of the alarmist sounding info out there as psychological 'hooks' to get the attention of as many people as possible about the genuine moral concern of messing up our home any further. As far as I can tell, more people than ever share this concern which is great so it's good to keep all the different angles coming to get the remaining stragglers on board, the alarmist stuff probably wasn't written with you in mind.
beleg
1 / 5 (5) Jun 18, 2013
Any data brings the brother in you out. Chose.
Neinsense99
3.3 / 5 (7) Jul 05, 2013
"..will make you a potential terrorist in their eyes."

The definition is now so broad that almost everyone is seen as a potential terrorist.

Darned comment terrorists!
kochevnik
3.7 / 5 (3) Jul 05, 2013
@Noumenon My counterpoint was the link in your post, it IS garbage from the heartland institute who are funded by industry well known for exploiting the planet. You play right into their hands.


If it is valid for you to regard the posted link as 'garbage' on account of their apparent bias, then it is valid for me to regard cataclysmic alarmism and proposed anti-capitalism solutions from 'progressive liberals' as politically bias and thus garbage.
This Heartland foundation springs from the same locale as the pro-confederate movement which petitioned three times to split California into a pro-slavery state. Later in Eagle Rock and Pasadena these same fascists promulgated the Victorian notion of eugenics, and even educated the aspiring Adolpf Hitler to take your ideas one step further as the FINAL SOLUTION. Your friends also founded the western division of the KKK. Nice company you have, Noumenon

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