Researchers contend increase in Antarctic sea ice due to summer melt

Apr 01, 2013 by Bob Yirka report
Researchers contend increase in Antarctic sea ice due to summer melt
Austral winter half-year (April–September) trends in sea-ice extent (total Southern Hemisphere) and SST (averaged over 50°–90° S). Credit: Nature Geoscience (2013) doi:10.1038/ngeo1767

(Phys.org) —A team of researchers from the Netherlands, led by Richard Bintanja, has published a paper in the journal Nature Geoscience, contending that the reason the amount of annual Antarctic sea ice is increasing is because of increased ice sheet melting during the summer months. They suggest that the increased melt creates a cold layer of fresh water on the ocean surface that is easily frozen when the next winter arrives.

Over the past several years, scientists have found something that appears to go against common sense—as the planet undergoes global warming, sea ice expansion around Antarctica has been growing each year instead of contracting as has been the case with sea ice around the Arctic. The reason for this has not been clear and researchers have been offering a variety of possible explanations—last year ocean modelers at the in Cambridge, published a paper suggesting that changes in wind patterns in the area were responsible.

In this new effort, the group from the Netherlands suggests it's more likely due to increased heat in the summer leading to an increase in offshore . That warmer water, they theorize, causes melting of the ice sheets from below. Then, because the water from the ice that melts has little salt in it, it tends to float, creating a layer of cold water sitting on top of the warmer saltier water below, which easily freezes when return. The researchers suggest that the cold layer of water created offshore may also be responsible for lower than average snowfall in Antarctica, as it cools the air above it—cooler air holds less moisture.

The researchers came to these conclusions by using existing models that simulate conditions in Antarctica to build new models based on what would likely happen in the sea should the ocean experience warming. Their model, they claim, indicates that increased ice expansion around the continent is most likely due to summer melt, though they acknowledge that some might also be due to changes in due to global warming as well. They note also that despite the increase in surface ice expansion each winter, the total mass of ice around Antarctica is continuing to shrink (by about 250 billion metric tons a year) because of the underside melting of the sheet ice.

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More information: Important role for ocean warming and increased ice-shelf melt in Antarctic sea-ice expansion, Nature Geoscience (2013) doi:10.1038/ngeo1767

Abstract
Changes in sea ice significantly modulate climate change because of its high reflective and strong insulating nature. In contrast to Arctic sea ice, sea ice surrounding Antarctica has expanded, with record extent in 2010. This ice expansion has previously been attributed to dynamical atmospheric changes that induce atmospheric cooling3. Here we show that accelerated basal melting of Antarctic ice shelves is likely to have contributed significantly to sea-ice expansion. Specifically, we present observations indicating that melt water from Antarctica's ice shelves accumulates in a cool and fresh surface layer that shields the surface ocean from the warmer deeper waters that are melting the ice shelves. Simulating these processes in a coupled climate model we find that cool and fresh surface water from ice-shelf melt indeed leads to expanding sea ice in austral autumn and winter. This powerful negative feedback counteracts Southern Hemispheric atmospheric warming. Although changes in atmospheric dynamics most likely govern regional sea-ice trends4, our analyses indicate that the overall sea-ice trend is dominated by increased ice-shelf melt. We suggest that cool sea surface temperatures around Antarctica could offset projected snowfall increases in Antarctica, with implications for estimates of future sea-level rise.

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antigoracle
2.3 / 5 (27) Apr 01, 2013
So, is the same being observed in the Arctic?
No.
I call GW Alarmist BS.
NikFromNYC
2.1 / 5 (22) Apr 01, 2013
Coastal temperature outside of the small volcanic peninsula are going nowhere in the 40 years we have real thermometer data for, so hand-waving arguments coded into super computer models can't possibly be relevant to that situation, as this quick map shows:

http://www.appins...e008.gif

That author Steig obtained a lying-with-statistics version of that map as a Nature cover story is quite telling that here lies monsters of scientific fraud.
Lurker2358
3.6 / 5 (14) Apr 01, 2013
So, is the same being observed in the Arctic?
No.
I call GW Alarmist BS.


Actually, it is.

The freshening of the Arctic due to continental melt water has been reported for many years and is even detected by satellites.
The Alchemist
1.8 / 5 (13) Apr 01, 2013
I am not going to take sides on this one. Though I can understand the effects, it's written more like a tabloid or propoganda.
I say his primarily because of the words "theorize," "model," and "simulation." Why model when reality is right there? They're measuring aren't they? Salinity is easy to detect?
Oh, well The Alchemist signing off, shaking his head at what will more likely be prevailing opinion against truth, despite it...
mjlavall
1.7 / 5 (17) Apr 01, 2013
The researchers suggest that the cold layer of water created offshore may also be responsible for lower than average snowfall in Antarctica, as it cools the air above it—cooler air holds less moisture.


Ok let me get this right, so warm water under the ice causes it to melt, and somehow this cold melted water, which bear in mind is WARMER than the ice it used to be, is responsible for cooling the atmosphere to such a degree in the area that it causes reduced moisture and reduced snowfall. This is what I call garbage science and a complete lack of analytical thinking. How in the hell can warmer water (by warmer water i mean warmer than the ice it used to be) cause the temp to drop. Seems like people will come up with any reason they can to confirm their ideas about global warming.
Maggnus
3.4 / 5 (16) Apr 01, 2013
Ok let me get this right,


You could, but first you actually have to comprehend the bloody article. No wonder less and less people believe the politically motivated, denialist, bunker dwelling conspiracists.
antigoracle
1.5 / 5 (15) Apr 01, 2013
So, is the same being observed in the Arctic?
No.
I call GW Alarmist BS.


Actually, it is.

The freshening of the Arctic due to continental melt water has been reported for many years and is even detected by satellites.

But is it resulting in more ice in the Arctic?
If not, then why is the Arctic different?
Maggnus
3.6 / 5 (17) Apr 01, 2013
If not, then why is the Arctic different?


Because moron, one is a big island (those are called "continents", no brain) and one is a deep ocean (that's where there is no land, dummy).

A conspiracist and a moron.
runrig
3.8 / 5 (13) Apr 01, 2013
Ok let me get this right, so warm water under the ice causes it to melt, and somehow this cold melted water, which bear in mind is WARMER than the ice it used to be, is responsible for cooling the atmosphere to such a degree in the area that it causes reduced moisture and reduced snowfall. This is what I call garbage science and a complete lack of analytical thinking. How in the hell can warmer water (by warmer water i mean warmer than the ice it used to be) cause the temp to drop.............. rant ...


Maggnus: This is the problem with *denialists*. They assume that a stupid conclusion they've reached was one the scientists also reached. That's a seriously complicated piece of psychology. Dunning-Kruger syndrome best encapsulates it. For the lazy/and/or stupid: Summer sea temps warmer thereby causing more melt. Causing less salty surface water - which freezes more easily at greater extent in winter. Ged it?
runrig
3.9 / 5 (14) Apr 01, 2013
So, is the same being observed in the Arctic?
No.
I call GW Alarmist BS.


Actually, it is.

The freshening of the Arctic due to continental melt water has been reported for many years and is even detected by satellites.

But is it resulting in more ice in the Arctic?
If not, then why is the Arctic different?


If you don't know the difference, then why are you on here? Assuming no one else but you knows the truth.
For crying out loud do some Googling and get some basic knowledge before coming on here and spouting your ignorance.
Maggnus
3.9 / 5 (14) Apr 01, 2013
Dunning-Kruger syndrome


Thats an interesting proposition. Certainly there is basis for thinking that, when dealing with some of the "ideas" that get presented here. I think there is growing realization that "conspiracy syndrome" is an actual pyschological condition that affects a good portion of the population. I especially like the recent findings of the anticonspiracal conspiracy!
ubavontuba
1.8 / 5 (16) Apr 01, 2013
the reason the amount of annual Antarctic sea ice is increasing is because of increased ice sheet melting during the summer months. They suggest that the increased melt creates a cold layer of fresh water on the ocean surface that is easily frozen when the next winter arrives.

...it's more likely due to increased heat in the summer leading to an increase in offshore ocean temperatures.
Rarely have I read such BS. Did they not know the ice area is remaining unusually high through the summer too?

http://arctic.atm...osphere/

antigoracle
1.2 / 5 (18) Apr 01, 2013
If you don't know the difference, then why are you on here? Assuming no one else but you knows the truth.
For crying out loud do some Googling and get some basic knowledge before coming on here and spouting your ignorance.
-- runrigTurd
Now sink back into the darkness, from whence you rose, like a true Turd and never respond to any of my postings. Thanks.
Maggnus
3.8 / 5 (16) Apr 01, 2013
Now sink back into the darkness, from whence you rose, like a true Turd and never respond to any of my postings. Thanks.


Aww boo hoo feeling stupider moron? Can't say I'm surprised when you come to a science site and spout conspiracist nonsense to scientists. Write to Anthony Watts, he'll listen to you. Well, if you pay him.
antigoracle
1.5 / 5 (16) Apr 01, 2013
If not, then why is the Arctic different?


Because moron, one is a big island (those are called "continents", no brain) and one is a deep ocean (that's where there is no land, dummy).

A conspiracist and a moron.
-- magganusTurd
So, tell me what is Greenland?
http://www.scienc...2900.htm
Maggnus
4 / 5 (16) Apr 01, 2013
Rarely have I read such BS. Did they not know the ice area is remaining unusually high through the summer too?


Did it cross your mind that they know this? Oh right, of course not, cause they all fudge their data to ensure the AGWites can enslave us all. Uba, a conspiracist who claims to not claim a conspiracy cause he never used the word "conspiracy" in describing his conspiracy.
Maggnus
3.8 / 5 (17) Apr 01, 2013
So, tell me what is Greenland?


Seriously, you can't be so stupid as to suggest that Greenland is comparable in size or area to Antarctica can you?

Oh, wait, who am I talking to. Of course you can be that stupid.
runrig
4.3 / 5 (12) Apr 01, 2013
If you don't know the difference, then why are you on here? Assuming no one else but you knows the truth.
For crying out loud do some Googling and get some basic knowledge before coming on here and spouting your ignorance.
-- runrigTurd

Now sink back into the darkness, from whence you rose, like a true Turd and never respond to any of my postings. Thanks.


QED. Glad I hit home. Read it again have we?
runrig
4.3 / 5 (11) Apr 01, 2013

-- runrigTurd
Now sink back into the darkness, from whence you rose, like a true Turd and never respond to any of my postings. Thanks.

BTW: do have any climatology/meteorology knowledge/qualifications?

Just asking.

antigoracle
1.8 / 5 (16) Apr 01, 2013

-- runrigTurd
Now sink back into the darkness, from whence you rose, like a true Turd and never respond to any of my postings. Thanks.

BTW: do have any climatology/meteorology knowledge/qualifications?

Just asking.


I refer you to http://en.wikiped...McIntyre the guy who proved what a lie your hockey stick was. What's his climatology/meteorology knowledge/qualifications?
ubavontuba
1.6 / 5 (14) Apr 01, 2013
Rarely have I read such BS. Did they not know the ice area is remaining unusually high through the summer too?
Did it cross your mind that they know this?
Obviously, or I wouldn't have posed the question.

If, as they claim, summer warming is laying the groundwork for winter expansion, how do they explain the summer expansion?

Did you know it's been calculated that if the Antarctic sea ice continuously expands at its current rate, it'll cover the earth in about a 1,000 years? Of course this isn't at all likely to happen, but it does put it into an interesting perspective...

runrig
4.1 / 5 (13) Apr 01, 2013

-- runrigTurd
Now sink back into the darkness, from whence you rose, like a true Turd and never respond to any of my postings. Thanks.

BTW: do have any climatology/meteorology knowledge/qualifications?

Just asking.


I refer you to http://en.wikiped...McIntyre the guy who proved what a lie your hockey stick was. What's his climatology/meteorology knowledge/qualifications?


I refer you to this latest confirmation of the "hockey-stick"
Unless of course it's a different shape where you live?

http://peakenergy...t.co.uk/

" The new analysis finds that the only problem with Mann's hockey stick was that its handle was about 9,000 years too short."

From ....http://phys.org/n...nce.html
Maggnus
4.3 / 5 (12) Apr 01, 2013
I refer you to "snip" the guy who proved what a lie your hockey stick was. What's his climatology/meteorology knowledge/qualifications?


He has none, he's a mathematician & statistician who spent the bulk of his life running mining companies. He has no more proven the hockey stick wrong than Pope Bendict XVI proved the Earth was created 6000 years ago.
antigoracle
1.3 / 5 (13) Apr 01, 2013
So, tell me what is Greenland?


Seriously, you can't be so stupid as to suggest that Greenland is comparable in size or area to Antarctica can you?

Oh, wait, who am I talking to. Of course you can be that stupid.
-- magganusTurd
Do you Turds know how to read far less comprehend?
The entire article is about melting Antarctic sea ice and it's theorized effect on the observed increase in sea ice.
First you claim the Arctic has no land mass then you claim Greenland is incomparable to Antarctica.
When will you claim that you're a Turd and a moron (rhetorical)?

Maggnus
4.4 / 5 (12) Apr 01, 2013
Did you know it's been calculated that if the Antarctic sea ice continuously expands at its current rate, it'll cover the earth in about a 1,000 years? Of course this isn't at all likely to happen, but it does put it into an interesting perspective...


Of course, it would first have to get past the Antarctic Circumpolar Current, which has shown significant strengthening due to global atmospheric warming. So ya, I agree, unlikely to happen.
Maggnus
4.1 / 5 (9) Apr 01, 2013
The entire article is about melting Antarctic sea ice and it's theorized effect on the observed increase in sea ice.


Exactly, give the girl a kewpie doll! Now, go slowly here, what is the difference between the Arctic and the Antarctic? Think it through....Slowly....you can do it....

Moron.
runrig
4 / 5 (11) Apr 01, 2013
Rarely have I read such BS. Did they not know the ice area is remaining unusually high through the summer too?
Did it cross your mind that they know this?
Obviously, or I wouldn't have posed the question. If, as they claim, summer warming is laying the groundwork for winter expansion, how do they explain the summer expansion?

"Did they not know the ice area is remaining unusually high through the summer too?" Rhetorical eh? sure.
I personally think this paper has only part of the answer. There has been another paper recently that has highlighted offshore winds as blowing ice further afield ( as spotted by satellite tracking )... http://www.antarc...?id=1967
Either way Antarctica is THE most extreme climate on Earth. It's geography unique. The ozone hole exacerbating it's "locked in" cold. Sea-ice is also a function of other than temp ( salinity, wind flow ) a simplistic correlation of ice=temp doesn't wash.
runrig
4.6 / 5 (9) Apr 01, 2013
-- magganusTurd
Do you Turds know how to read far less comprehend?
The entire article is about melting Antarctic sea ice and it's theorized effect on the observed increase in sea ice.
First you claim the Arctic has no land mass then you claim Greenland is incomparable to Antarctica.
When will you claim that you're a Turd and a moron (rhetorical)?


We are talking about sea-ice. What is about the geography of both poles that you do not understand as being completely different? And therfor incomparable. Just look at a map of the globe and then lookinto the relative size/altitude of Antarctica. You do not become a genius by claiming your argumentor is an idiot and by blustering on to deny your ignorance. You're talking to people ( at least in my case ) who worked professionally with the atmosphere.

Lurker2358
2.6 / 5 (7) Apr 01, 2013
mjlavall:

pay attention. The Heat of Fusion of water is much, much more than the Specific Heat capacity. Therefore during phase change ice absorbs an amount of heat sufficient to change the temperature of liquid water by 80C. This in fact COOLS the average temperature of the air and water, even though the total HEAT has gone up.
ubavontuba
1.4 / 5 (11) Apr 01, 2013
Did you know it's been calculated that if the Antarctic sea ice continuously expands at its current rate, it'll cover the earth in about a 1,000 years? Of course this isn't at all likely to happen, but it does put it into an interesting perspective...
Of course, it would first have to get past the Antarctic Circumpolar Current, which has shown significant strengthening due to global atmospheric warming. So ya, I agree, unlikely to happen.
I'll call you on that. Models suggest ACC strengthening should result, but actual observations seem to deem otherwise:

http://eprints.un...0753.pdf

ubavontuba
1.3 / 5 (12) Apr 01, 2013
"Did they not know the ice area is remaining unusually high through the summer too?" Rhetorical eh? sure.
I personally think this paper has only part of the answer. There has been another paper recently that has highlighted offshore winds as blowing ice further afield ( as spotted by satellite tracking )... http://www.antarc...?id=1967
Either way Antarctica is THE most extreme climate on Earth. It's geography unique. The ozone hole exacerbating it's "locked in" cold. Sea-ice is also a function of other than temp ( salinity, wind flow ) a simplistic correlation of ice=temp doesn't wash.
In the short term, perhaps not. But this has been developing for a long time. Therefore it's not simply circumstantial.

http://arctic.atm...ctic.png

antigoracle
1.9 / 5 (13) Apr 01, 2013
Over the past several years, scientists have found something that appears to go against common sense—as the planet undergoes global warming, sea ice expansion around Antarctica has been growing each year instead of contracting as has been the case with sea ice around the Arctic. The reason for this has not been clear and researchers have been offering a variety of possible explanations

What is about the geography of both poles that you do not understand as being completely different? And therfor incomparable.
-- runrigTurd
Wow. I wonder how these guys missed that the two geographies are different and that's why the sea-ice is growing in one and decreasing in the other.
There is absolutely no mention of Antarctica's land mass influencing their THEORY. It's all about the sea-ice. The Arctic is all sea-ice so why does the same theory NOT APPLY.
deepsand
2.9 / 5 (15) Apr 02, 2013
If you don't know the difference, then why are you on here? Assuming no one else but you knows the truth.
For crying out loud do some Googling and get some basic knowledge before coming on here and spouting your ignorance.
-- runrigTurd
Now sink back into the darkness, from whence you rose, like a true Turd and never respond to any of my postings. Thanks.

Bugger off, you pusillanimous mass of quivering protoplasm.
Maggnus
3.7 / 5 (9) Apr 02, 2013
I'll call you on that. Models suggest ACC strengthening should result, but actual observations seem to deem otherwise:


A 2008 paper, very nice! Sincerely, nice find. Did you bother to read it? Couple of points from the paper you link:

"Studies on the basis of coarse-resolution ocean models suggest
that the enhanced equatorward Ekman transport associated with
a poleward shift and intensification of the Southern Hemisphere
westerlies (a positive trend in the Southern Annular Mode index)
results in an increased circulation"

"Our analysis of trends in the physical properties suggests two
main conclusions about the nature of ongoing changes in the ACC.
First, as shown by the prominent patterns of change on isopycnal
surfaces, significant parts of the mid-depth warming and freshening
signals must be due to trends in surface heat and freshwater fluxes:
the observed patterns of change are consistent with the 'fingerprint'
of anthropogenic climate change delineated in model simulati
Maggnus
3.8 / 5 (10) Apr 02, 2013
Uba, when will you learn to carefully read the whole paper you link to? That way, you will not look like such an idiot when someone actually does read it, and finds that you've totally missed the point of the paper you've posted.
Maggnus
4.5 / 5 (8) Apr 02, 2013
pusillanimous


Holy wow, good one! I must try to use this one in my next lecture somehow ;0
antigoracle
1.9 / 5 (14) Apr 02, 2013
pusillanimous


Holy wow, good one! I must try to use this one in my next lecture somehow ;0

Really, the guy who spells .. intellegence.. like this, lectures. Lord help us all.
antigoracle
1.6 / 5 (14) Apr 02, 2013
Bugger off, you pusillanimous mass of quivering protoplasm.

And so, the Turd quickly sinks back into the darkness, never staying afloat long enough to see the light, forever to grow more rancid and ignorant.
deepsand
2.8 / 5 (16) Apr 02, 2013
Bugger off, you pusillanimous mass of quivering protoplasm.

And so, the Turd quickly sinks back into the darkness, never staying afloat long enough to see the light, forever to grow more rancid and ignorant.

May the fleas of seven generations of camels be visited upon your crotch.
Maggnus
3.9 / 5 (11) Apr 02, 2013
Really, the guy who spells .. intellegence.. like this, lectures. Lord help us all.


At least I don't go to science sites and pontificate on the imaginary conspiracy that only exists in your mental world of paranoid delusions.
deepsand
2.8 / 5 (16) Apr 02, 2013
pusillanimous


Holy wow, good one! I must try to use this one in my next lecture somehow ;0

Really, the guy who spells .. intellegence.. like this, lectures. Lord help us all.

That's so that dummies like you might better understand.
Maggnus
3.8 / 5 (10) Apr 02, 2013
And so, the Turd quickly sinks back into the darkness, never staying afloat long enough to see the light, forever to grow more rancid and ignorant.


Awww look at that! Trying to be all clever and everything again! That headache is from trying to exercise your atrophied neuron connections. Maybe, if you keep trying, you can have an intelligent thought to go along with all your paranoid delusions of conspiracy.
antigoracle
1.7 / 5 (15) Apr 02, 2013

May the fleas of seven generations of camels be visited upon your crotch.

OK, that one just made you my favorite Turd.
Now, why don't you respond to my previous comment as to why this paper's theory should/could not also apply to the Arctic.
Maggnus
4.2 / 5 (10) Apr 02, 2013
OK, that one just made you my favorite Turd.
Now, why don't you respond to my previous comment as to why this paper's theory should/could not also apply to the Arctic.


Aww, I`m jealous, I thought I was your fav!

Look up Antarctic Circumpolar Current. Learn what it is, how it works, and why it is where it is.

Then come back here, and read the question you just asked.
ubavontuba
1.6 / 5 (13) Apr 02, 2013
Uba, when will you learn to carefully read the whole paper you link to? That way, you will not look like such an idiot when someone actually does read it, and finds that you've totally missed the point of the paper you've posted.
Ah, you've just cherry-picked from the paper. These observations are ambiguous strength, and it goes on to state:

"Second, the lack of an increase in the tilt of isopycnals and in the transport of the ACC is not consistent with the response to the trend in the Southern Annular Mode index simulated by coarse-resolution models: the observed behaviour rather suggests a strong effect of wind-induced increases in eddy fluxes as found in eddy-resolving ocean models. Projecting the behaviour of the Southern Ocean, including the carbon sink, in greenhouse scenarios will thus require models that capture realistically the effect of the ACC eddy variability."

In other words, the models aren't correct and the expected strengthening of the ACC is not observed.
ubavontuba
1.4 / 5 (11) Apr 02, 2013
That should have read:

These observations are ambiguous to strength...
deepsand
2.6 / 5 (15) Apr 02, 2013

May the fleas of seven generations of camels be visited upon your crotch.

OK, that one just made you my favorite Turd.
Now, why don't you respond to my previous comment as to why this paper's theory should/could not also apply to the Arctic.

Because you've demonstrated, by virtue of your ignoring the fact that your question has already been answered by others, that you are a clueless sophist.
runrig
4.5 / 5 (8) Apr 02, 2013
antigoracle

I assume a certain level of scientific comprehension. Sorry, that comes from repeatedly countering know-all posts. But of course they know nothing.
Let me explain. ( try )

The geography of both regions is crucial to any theory of how sea-ice behaves.

Antarctica is a (the) pole of cold. It never gets above freezing bar the sticky-out bits. ( average altitude 12,000ft ). The circumpolar circulation locks in the cold ( v large temp difference at altitude exacerbated by ozone loss ). Winds from the sea struggle to penetrate and an outflow of wind from the continent ( katabatic ) is prevalent, towards lower lying coasts. The major influences on the ice tend to come from within. Salinity decreasing due summer melt outflow ( from basal ice sheet melt ).

Cont
runrig
4.4 / 5 (7) Apr 02, 2013
Cont

Arctic is surrounded by land mass. It is not at altitude and is easily penetrated by southerly winds, warmed considerably by land ( much lower specific heat ). It's salinity is the lowest of the major oceans due outflow from rivers and locked in nature. It's polar vortex is much easier to break down ( close mountain ranges deflecting flow and temp contrast broken by warming land ). Even in winter the PV can be disrupted. It's summer melt ( although increasing ) does not affect it's salinity in the same way and reduced salinity is not occuring ( beyond yearly river outflow variation ).

This theory supposes that the Antarctic interior melt is INCREASING and decreasing sea salinity - leading to a feed-back to easier ice formation in winter season.

OK?
Maggnus
4.2 / 5 (5) Apr 02, 2013
Ah, you've just cherry-picked from the paper.


Well actually I didn't mean to, I had highlighted the entire passage, but I exceeded the characters allowed, which is why the passage cut off in the middle of a word.

In other words, the models aren't correct and the expected strengthening of the ACC is not observed.


No, but nice try. The ACC has strengthened significantly (which is what we were discussing) although not as much as the models suggested it would, due to the counter-acting effects of eddy fluxes.

Not as much Uba. Still means they strengthened. See how you misrepresent the data? Same as when you claim the warming is not as much as predicted does not mean no warming, as you try to insinuate.
ubavontuba
1.4 / 5 (9) Apr 03, 2013
No, but nice try. The ACC has strengthened significantly (which is what we were discussing) although not as much as the models suggested it would, due to the counter-acting effects of eddy fluxes.

Not as much Uba. Still means they strengthened. See how you misrepresent the data? Same as when you claim the warming is not as much as predicted does not mean no warming, as you try to insinuate.
The paper I linked to clearly states otherwise:

"However, we detect no increase in the tilt of the surfaces of equal density across the Antarctic Circumpolar Current, in contrast to coarse-resolution model studies.Our results imply that the transport in the Antarctic Circumpolar Current and meridional overturning in the Southern Ocean are insensitive to decadal changes in wind stress."

Do you see the keywords: "we detect no increase" and "insensitive"

antigoracle
1.3 / 5 (12) Apr 04, 2013
So, let's summarize. AGW is melting the Antarctic sea-ice resulting in even MORE sea-ice. Hmmmm... I believe if I close my eyes and try really...really... hard I may be able to squeeze a small Turd out that falls for that.
Maggnus
4.3 / 5 (6) Apr 04, 2013
The paper I linked to clearly states otherwise:

"However, we detect no increase in the tilt of the surfaces of equal density across the Antarctic Circumpolar Current, in contrast to coarse-resolution model studies.Our results imply that the transport in the Antarctic Circumpolar Current and meridional overturning in the Southern Ocean are insensitive to decadal changes in wind stress."

Do you see the keywords: "we detect no increase" and "insensitive"


He quotes it, which one assumes means that he reads it, and then he still manages to get what it is saying wrong.

Along with the words you have highlighted, add "changes in wind stress".
runrig
4.4 / 5 (7) Apr 04, 2013
So, let's summarize. AGW is melting the Antarctic sea-ice resulting in even MORE sea-ice. Hmmmm... I believe if I close my eyes and try really...really... hard I may be able to squeeze a small Turd out that falls for that.


Ahh ... well done! at last the penny's dropped. And stuck in the Turd.
antigoracle
1 / 5 (9) Apr 04, 2013
Ahh ... well done! at last the penny's dropped. And stuck in the Turd.

If I may. --- Ahh... well done! At last, the penny has dropped and stuck in the Turd.

Now give me that penny.
deepsand
2.7 / 5 (12) Apr 04, 2013
Ahh ... well done! at last the penny's dropped. And stuck in the Turd.

If I may. --- Ahh... well done! At last, the penny has dropped and stuck in the Turd.

Now give me that penny.

It's very much lodged in your own mouth.
ubavontuba
1 / 5 (7) Apr 05, 2013
The paper I linked to clearly states otherwise:

"However, we detect no increase in the tilt of the surfaces of equal density across the Antarctic Circumpolar Current, in contrast to coarse-resolution model studies.Our results imply that the transport in the Antarctic Circumpolar Current and meridional overturning in the Southern Ocean are insensitive to decadal changes in wind stress."

Do you see the keywords: "we detect no increase" and "insensitive"


He quotes it, which one assumes means that he reads it, and then he still manages to get what it is saying wrong.

Along with the words you have highlighted, add "changes in wind stress".
I'm sorry, I didn't know that wind stress/speed was how we measured the strength of a deep ocean current. LOL.

It clearly states the increased wind stress is having no measurable effect on the current. (d'oh!)

I find your lack of comprehension skills, disturbing.

runrig
4.3 / 5 (6) Apr 05, 2013
Ahh ... well done! at last the penny's dropped. And stuck in the Turd.

If I may. --- Ahh... well done! At last, the penny has dropped and stuck in the Turd.

Now give me that penny.

It's very much lodged in your own mouth.


With shit on it.
antigoracle
1 / 5 (9) Apr 05, 2013
Ahh ... well done! at last the penny's dropped. And stuck in the Turd.

If I may. --- Ahh... well done! At last, the penny has dropped and stuck in the Turd.

Now give me that penny.

It's very much lodged in your own mouth.


With shit on it.
-- runrigTurd
Egad!! The only thing worse than your taste, is your stupidity.
runrig
4.2 / 5 (5) Apr 05, 2013
Ahh ... well done! at last the penny's dropped. And stuck in the Turd.

If I may. --- Ahh... well done! At last, the penny has dropped and stuck in the Turd.

Now give me that penny.

It's very much lodged in your own mouth.


With shit on it.
-- runrigTurd
Egad!! The only thing worse than your taste, is your stupidity.


When you figure out how the atmosphere works ... get back to me.

PS: Did I ask you what your qualifications/profession are/is?

PPS:It was you that started the Turd allusion - I'm merely carrying it on as it seems particularly applicable in your case.

PPPS: Do try to answer the above question.
Maggnus
5 / 5 (4) Apr 05, 2013
Pidgeon chess again. the article clearly states as its initial premise that the ACC has strengthened (increased circulation) and that they discern two main conclusions about the ongoing changes to the ACC being that "significant parts of the mid-depth warming and freshening signals must be due to trends in surface heat and freshwater fluxes" and that "the observed behaviour rather suggests a strong effect of wind-induced increases in eddy fluxes as found in eddy-resolving ocean models" such that "Projecting the behaviour of the Southern Ocean, including the carbon sink, in greenhouse scenarios will thus require models that capture realistically the effect of the ACC eddy variability."

So it is the case that you can read, you just can't comprehend.
NotParker
1.4 / 5 (9) Apr 07, 2013
"The researchers came to these conclusions by using existing models"

Their models are crap.

http://blog.nj.co...ein.html
runrig
4.2 / 5 (5) Apr 07, 2013
"The researchers came to these conclusions by using existing models"
Their models are crap.


In weather NWP models, there are many parametrizations that are required to simulate the real world - fudge factors if you like. However NWP has advanced considerably in the last 20 years or so. Along with computing power and integration of satellite data. But still it needs help ...Wiki .."In addition, the partial differential equations used in the model need to be supplemented with parameterizations for solar radiation, moist processes (clouds and precipitation), heat exchange, soil, vegetation, surface water, and the effects of terrain."
In other words, the physics cannot be incorporated and a simpler simulation of the processes has to be added. Of course climatologists understand the climate ( Dyson ) and the models fulfill that within the limits of modelling. Modelling is a science apart and has advanced. Since I joined the UKMO the 120 hr has become as good as the 48 hr was then.
runrig
4.3 / 5 (6) Apr 07, 2013
BTW: thanks Parky ..

At last I've discovered who Mr Dyson is. And he's a a fellow countryman. Maybe he is a relative of the vacuum man! ( joke ).
ubavontuba
1 / 5 (7) Apr 07, 2013
the article clearly states as its initial premise that the ACC has strengthened (increased circulation)
Maybe the problem is the jargon they used is too difficult for you to decipher? The opening premise (normally called an abstract) clearly states the wind stress has increased, but the ACC has not measurably responded.

ubavontuba
1 / 5 (7) Apr 08, 2013
At last I've discovered who Mr Dyson is. And he's a a fellow countryman.
In 1957 he renounced his British citizenship and became a naturalized U.S. citizen.

Therefore, he is as American as apple pie.

deepsand
2.5 / 5 (11) Apr 08, 2013
At last I've discovered who Mr Dyson is. And he's a a fellow countryman.
In 1957 he renounced his British citizenship and became a naturalized U.S. citizen.

Therefore, he is as American as apple pie.

Wherein ubavontuba demonstrates his ignorance of the meaning of "as American as apple pie."
ubavontuba
1 / 5 (7) Apr 08, 2013
Wherein ubavontuba demonstrates his ignorance of the meaning of "as American as apple pie."
I guess then that you're not an American?

America is a nation of immigrants.

deepsand
2.5 / 5 (11) Apr 08, 2013
False equivalency.
ubavontuba
1 / 5 (7) Apr 08, 2013
False equivalency.
How so?

"Immigration to the United States is a complex demographic phenomenon that has been a major source of population growth and cultural change throughout much of the history of the United States."

http://en.wikiped...d_States

And of course:

http://www.youtub...dpH51NyY

Maybe you should try doing a little basic research before you spout off about things you know not.

runrig
4.8 / 5 (5) Apr 08, 2013
At last I've discovered who Mr Dyson is. And he's a a fellow countryman.

In 1957 he renounced his British citizenship and became a naturalized U.S. citizen.
Therefore, he is as American as apple pie.


Actually, as was the thing in mind when I made the comment re Dyson - Apple pies considerably predate the US versions.

wiki ... "English apple pie recipes go back to the time of Chaucer. The 1381 recipe lists the ingredients as good apples, good spices, figs, raisins and pears. The cofyn of the recipe is a casing of pastry. Saffron is used for colouring the pie filling.
In English speaking countries, apple pie is a dessert of enduring popularity, eaten hot or cold, on its own or with ice cream, double cream, or custard."

Same with Tesla. Arrived in the US from Croatia age 29. You can't take credit ( or blame ) for someone when their culture/education is gained from another country.
The British Isles is a nation of mongrels as witnessed by the English language.
ubavontuba
1 / 5 (7) Apr 08, 2013
Apple pies considerably predate the US versions.
But the colloquialism, "American as apple pie." is American specific.

Same with Tesla. Arrived in the US from Croatia age 29. You can't take credit (or blame) for someone when their culture/education is gained from another country.
When their accomplishments come after U.S. naturalization, then it is an American accomplishment. But your comradely feelings are understandable.

In America, the accomplishments of former citizens are generally associated with the country of citizenship. For instance, we don't think of Valdas Adamkus as an American who did good in Lithuania, but rather as a Lithuanian ex-president.

The British Isles is a nation of mongrels as witnessed by the English language
Indeed. Historical immigrations, conquests, and British imperialism made Great Britain probably the most diverse culture(s) in Europe. Very cool.

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