Inequality in schools threatens US prosperity, scholars say

Feb 21, 2013 by Brooke Donald
A new report says America's unequal education system disadvantages poor and minority students. Credit: Dawn Shearer-Simonetti/Shutterstock.com

Decades of reform have failed to create a strong and fair school system in the United States, with poor and minority students at an increasing disadvantage, a new report says.

The report, which outlines ways to close the achievement gap, was issued Tuesday by the Equity and Excellence Commission, a 27-member panel that included three Stanford scholars: Law Professor Mariano-Florentino Cuéllar, Graduate School of Education Professor Linda Darling-Hammond and Hoover Institution Senior Fellow Eric Hanushek.

The nonpartisan commission, which also included union leaders, school officials and civil rights activists, was created by Congress to provide advice to the Department of Education on how to remove inequality in education.

"For all of our initiatives and good intentions, our nation has been unable to ensure that each and every American child can attend a quality public school," the report said.

The report said 10 million students in America's poorest communities are "having their lives unjustly and irredeemably blighted" by an education system that assigns them low-performing teachers, run-down facilities and low academic expectations and opportunities.

It said America has become an outlier in the way it funds, governs and administers K-12 schools.

"No other developed nation has inequities nearly as deep or systemic; no other developed nation has, despite some efforts to the contrary, so thoroughly stacked the odds against so many of its children," the report said.

Cuéllar, who co-chaired the commission, said the government, at every level, must implement a multiyear strategy for advancing national equity using a combination of incentives and enforcement.

"We have a staggering achievement gap at home," Cuéllar said. "The between children from high- and low-income families is 30 to 40 percent larger among children born in 2001 than among those born 25 years earlier."

Cuéllar, co-director of Stanford's Center for International Security and Cooperation at the Freeman Spogli Institute and an expert on institutional accountability, said the federal government must be clear about national expectations for student outcomes, insist on realistic plans from states and allocate resources to level the playing field.

The report pushes for better training for teachers just starting out, adoption of a school finance system that provides adequate funding for every child no matter the ZIP code and more support services for the poorest children and those with special needs.

It also recommends pre-kindergarten programs for every poor child within 10 years and urges the federal government to create a grant program with incentives for states and localities to promote parent education and a sense of shared engagement between schools and parents.

Darling-Hammond said funding schools equitably and ensuring that all children get a high-quality education is not only a moral calling but increasingly a matter of economic self-interest.

"In a knowledge-based economy, we can no longer afford to educate only a small share of students well, while under-educating many others," she said. "Those who do not succeed in school are increasingly likely to be unemployed, on welfare, or incarcerated, rather than able to engage productively in the economy."

Darling-Hammond said she is hopeful the report will call attention to "the urgent need to create an equitable starting point for all children – with investments in their welfare and preschool education – that continues with equitably funded schools staffed by well-prepared and committed educators."

Explore further: Unintended consequences: More high school math, science linked to more dropouts

More information: www2.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list/eec/documents.html

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CapitalismPrevails
3.4 / 5 (18) Feb 21, 2013
The report pushes for ... adoption of A SCHOOL FINANCE SYSTEM that provides adequate funding for every child no matter the ZIP code and more support services for the poorest children and those with special needs. It also recommends pre-kindergarten PROGRAMS for every poor child within 10 years and urges the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to create a GRANT PROGRAM with incentives for states and localities to promote parent education and a sense of shared engagement between schools and parents.

So we need to give additional subsidies to already existing moral hazards from the DOE and No Child Left Behind so they become bigger? That's the definition of insanity. What do the Feds do for education besides micromanage and convolute the situation like everything else they do? Educations results have only fallen since creation of the DOE. It's just another bureaucracy filled with people who could never implement their ideas in the private sector b/c their ideas are horrible.
EdMoore
4.1 / 5 (13) Feb 21, 2013
Look no farther than the NEA and the teachers unions for the blame.

They've created a stranglehold funding monopoly that would make Google, Walmart, the UAW and ExxonMobil green with envy.
bertibus
3.6 / 5 (17) Feb 21, 2013
The problems are not despite the decades of good intentions they are caused by them. More money, more money, more money is always the mantra even though there is absolutely no correlation (down to absurd levels) between money spent and outcomes. Both my children have been subjected to the public school system in NY City and some of the things I've heard from their teachers would make your hair stand straight up. Furthermore, if we (heaven forbid) look at successful countries' educational systems, we can see that they do not start industrial style schooling early. The biggest problem in US schools is the word that dare not be spoken; it is "culture". The culture of learning and desire to learn in order to improve oneself has been massively eroded by decades of derision aimed at "middle-class values". Now we are reaping what has been sown.
bendgame
4.4 / 5 (7) Feb 21, 2013
Working in the education industry, I can tell you one of the biggest emergent problems is the reliance on the idea a student will have parents who are willing to be involved in the education process. Sorry, but education starts at home. If the parents can hardly read or do math, what hope is there for the child to learn these skills beyond forceful subjection through an hour a day at school? In order to get good at something, the something needs to be practiced.

Not to mention keeping a large percentage away from educational opportunities is a sure fire way to keep enrollment in armed services high. Since it is unlikely a politician would institute a draft if conflict arose, the nation can provide opportunities in exchange for using a life to enforce national agenda.
ForFreeMinds
2.7 / 5 (19) Feb 21, 2013
A politically created group reports we need more money spent on schools. Might as well report the sky is blue.

The biggest threat to US prosperity regarding education, is the government school monopoly. We don't have government producing and providing our food, clothing, shelter and transportation (but they sure have inserted themselves into our business to collect tax money) so why do we allow them to educate our kids? There is no reason government needs to run the schools, and it can still be funded by government by using vouchers.

It's all about power, control and money. And politicians want it. I'd rather have freedom.
Q-Star
3.9 / 5 (11) Feb 21, 2013
The biggest problem in US schools is the word that dare not be spoken; it is "culture". The culture of learning and desire to learn in order to improve oneself has been massively eroded by decades of derision aimed at "middle-class values".


Bears repeating because it can be shown, easily, and definitively, the problems are not the teachers, or the schools, or the money. The largest problem is in the cultural mindset of the STUDENTS. They are missing the social skills and values to make use the of the teachers, schools and money spent spent on them.

My opinion is, if properly habilitated student attends a very good or a very poor school, he will learn. An improperly habilitated student will not learn regardless of how much money you spend on him, or how good his teachers are.
FrankHerbertWhines
2.5 / 5 (13) Feb 21, 2013
"The" EXTREMELY "partisan commission, which also included union leaders, school officials and civil rights activists"

all lined up together humming the money song.....more more more
zaxxon451
2.5 / 5 (8) Feb 21, 2013
Look no farther than the NEA and the teachers unions for the blame.

They've created a stranglehold funding monopoly that would make Google, Walmart, the UAW and ExxonMobil green with envy.


Your ignorance about our education system is stunning. But don't worry, education will soon be privatized and non-union with the rise of charter schools. And as studies have already shown, it will absolutely not improve student achievement. But at least fat-cat teachers with their "living wages" can join the poor with the others in right-to-work states and enroll in food stamps and medicaid.
Sean_W
2.8 / 5 (10) Feb 21, 2013
Huge increases in funding for "education" over decades and the results are worse. Let's have a whole lot more of the same.
kochevnik
1.9 / 5 (9) Feb 21, 2013
Americans schools are holding pens to keep wayward youth from roaming the streets inciting mayhem. Their only task is to product another generation of conformist consumers adverse to critical thinking. A pliable herd ready to be led into bankster initiatives to be separated from their money and property. A nation of renters forever paying tribute and completely reliant on the financial sector for their survival. Cut of food shipments for a week and they will hand over their first born. Nauseating bourgeois

Look at the articles here on physorg. Most of the contributions are from foreign-born scientists. America is a brand name
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (16) Feb 21, 2013
What is threatening US prosperity are the socialists of all parties.
"America's poorest communities" are in the bastions of socialist run 'communities'.
What is really holding back real eduction are the teacher unions and those more interested in power than eduction.
If they were truly serious in education, govts would provide a voucher for each student to use in ANY school their parents chose.
Socialists, Sweden uses vouchers.
The biggest problem in US schools is the word that dare not be spoken; it is "culture".

Discipline is not allowed in most public screwles today.
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (13) Feb 21, 2013
"One in ten California teachers unqualified for courses"
http://dailycalle...courses/

"Colorado 'Crunk Bear' teacher tweets on, won't face drug charges"
http://dailycalle...charges/
VendicarE
2.1 / 5 (7) Feb 21, 2013
RyggTard is right for a change...

90 percent of California teachers are more than qualified for their courses.

The failure of American schools is the failure of American Capitalist Culture.

"I Am Ashamed of My Country" - Rush Limbaugh

He should be.

Faux news has the solution to the problem. Bread and Circus.

Vegas woman arrested for sex with pit bull

http://www.wafb.c...pit-bull
VendicarE
2.1 / 5 (7) Feb 21, 2013
Socialists didn't dismantle U.S. industry, fire American workers, and move production to slave wage nations.

Capitalists did.
Republicans did.

Von Mises provided the economic theory that claimed it would be good for America.

Libertarians and Randites promoted his failed theories over common sense because of their sick political ideology.

"What is threatening US prosperity are the socialists of all parties." - RyggTard
VendicarE
2.1 / 5 (7) Feb 21, 2013
You mean it isn't the daily shootings in U.S. schools? The drug dealing and drug abuse? The lack of parenting due to both parents now being wage slaves?

"What is really holding back real eduction are the teacher unions and those more interested in power than eduction." - RyggTard

Can you tell us RyggTard how lowering Teacher stanards, lowering wages and eliminating Unions are going to improve parenting skills and remove drugs and guns from America's schools?

You can't?

Didn't think so.
VendicarE
2.1 / 5 (7) Feb 21, 2013
Kochevnik sees America clearly.

"Their only task is to product another generation of conformist consumers adverse to critical thinking." - Kochevnik
VendicarE
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 21, 2013
Huge decreases in parenting and an upswing in Republican "Greed is the ultimate good" ideology in America.

Corporations know that Consuming Cattle must be grown before they can be harvested.

"Huge increases in funding for "education" over decades and the results are worse." - Sean_W
VendicarE
2.5 / 5 (8) Feb 21, 2013
The WhiningTard believes that Americans can be educated at a lower cost.

I agree...

America needs to return to the pre-1960's education model where American Corporations paid wages that were high enough that a single family member could to the earning, and the other spouse could stay home and ensure that the children were adequately educated and socialized.

"all lined up together humming the money song.....more more more" - WhiningTard

How does the Whining Tard propose to return to those wage scales?
VendicarE
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 22, 2013
Yes. This is self evident...

"They are missing the social skills and values to make use the of the teachers, schools and money spent spent on them." - QStar

Studies have shown that watching Faux News makes you stupid.

There was a time when the Networks existed not just to turn a profit but to produce educational and uplifting programming.

Today, with programming such as CSI, Sons of Anarchy, Deadwood, WWE Raw, Criminal Minds, Deexter, etc. the anything for profit networks are now essentially producing and airing non-stop snuff programming.

And this form of filth, driven by Corporate Greed has become the basis of American Society.

So long my little American suckers....

VendicarE
2 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2013
If American parents can't socialize their children, then Government will have to if the state is to survive.

"So we need to give additional subsidies to already existing moral hazards from the DOE and No Child Left Behind so they become bigger?" - CapitalismHasFailed

How much are you willing to pay me for being the parent of your children?
verkle
2.3 / 5 (12) Feb 22, 2013
I love the oxymoron:
"The nonpartisan commission, which also included union leaders, school officials and civil rights activists, was created..."

Union leaders and civil rights activists are NOT nonpartisan. They are 99% Democrat. Trying to fix their own mess. Good luck!

Many persons who have already commented (with the exception of vendi and others) know the truth better and know more how to fix the education problem than democrats.

Education really does start at home.

Guy_Underbridge
3 / 5 (2) Feb 22, 2013
Pedagogy vs. Homeschooling
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (11) Feb 22, 2013
"But back at home, it's increasingly clear that stifling union rules, high unemployment (and higher taxes), and a baffling lack of entrepreneurial spirit signal a country in crisis. And the deepening sense of dread can be traced directly to the educational system.

"It's a culture of nul," says Peter Gumbel, whose bestseller On Achève Bien les Écoliers (They Shoot School Kids, Don't They?) criticized the French school system for creating a generation of bureaucrats who refuse to think out of the box. Nul, or "worthless," is a familiar word to the French—it's often tossed at schoolchildren who do not get their lessons right."
http://www.thedai...azy.html
djr
5 / 5 (3) Feb 23, 2013
This report was not news to me - my wife is a teacher in an inner city school. What did surprise me was the tenor of the responses. America does have a serious problem - I see it every day in my work - large numbers of people who are barely literate, and lack critical thinking skills. I agree with Kockevnik's perspective. But the responses are for the most part ideological, and not solution oriented. Rygg addresses a report on problems in the U.S. school system - with an attack on the French socialists. Others attack the NEA and the unions. We have a culture that does not respect anything. How can you cultivate minds in a cultural wasteland. The problem is complex - it transcends party ideology. Have you been to France Ryyg? I have. It is a beautiful country - and the people are warm. Go visit a wasteland in any of our inner cities. You will see that we will not solve these problems by blaming the socialists, or the unions - we have to learn to care.
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (10) Feb 23, 2013
we have to learn to care.

Who is 'we'?
Parents around the country, and those in devastated inner city schools DO care, but their local govts and teacher unions do NOT care.
Recall not too long ago Chicago teachers went on strike? How well do those teachers educate?
Washington DC had a voucher plan revoked by Obama over the objections of parents.
In a socialist system, hardwork and ingenuity is not rewarded so why should socialist really care if anyone is really educated? All socialists need schools for is 'socialization' and indoctrination.
"Children would have to be disciplined through a new form of universal conditioning. They could no longer be trusted to their parents. Fichte said that, "Education should provide the means to destroy free will". Look what Napoleon had done by banishing sentiment in the interests of nationalism. "
http://www.leftyp...-system/
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (10) Feb 23, 2013
"A popular program that allows D.C. public school students to receive tuition for private school education has had its funding cut under President Obama's 2013 budget.

The Heritage Foundation wrote on its blog yesterday that Obama has cut funding for the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship Program, under which some 1,600 public school students have received $8,000 each annually towards private school education. The program was created in 2004 and functioned until 2009, when Democrats in Congress threatened to cut off funding. Republicans reinstated funding for the program last year."
http://dcist.com/...er_p.php

Why would 'liberals' do such a thing if they REALLY cared for the children?
VendicarE
2.5 / 5 (2) Feb 24, 2013
What makes me laugh about RyggTard and other dung for brains Consrvaives is that they blame Socialism for the ills in America's schools, but where there is real socialism, Europe, Japan, China, Canada, etc, the school systems are performing vastly better than the American ones.

So the problem clearly isn't socialism.

"You will see that we will not solve these problems by blaming the socialists, or the unions" - Dir

The problem is the failure of American Culture.
VendicarE
3 / 5 (2) Feb 24, 2013
This would be the same heritage foundation that equated Climate Scientists with mass murderer Ted Kaczynski?

"The Heritage Foundation" - RyggTard

You do realize that you are a moron, don't you Tard Boy?
djr
3 / 5 (2) Feb 24, 2013
"Who is 'we'? Parents around the country, and those in devastated inner city schools DO care, but their local govts and teacher unions do NOT care."

Such a crass generalization. My wife works at an inner city school. Some of the parents do care - some do not. Some attend every conference - some none. The we I am using is a collective we. We as a species have to learn to think differently

I read your article. Once again you try to address real problems with some obscure intellectual argument - that in my opinion does not address the heart of the problem - the cultural wasteland of consumer driven America - where we have very little conversation about what it means to care.

Let me explain. My brother lives in a trailer park in England. It is beautiful. The residents care. Each trailer is maintained beautifully with a small garden - carefully tended. I spend a lot of time here in Oklahoma in trailer parks. They are awful. Trash is everywhere, dogs run freely, cont.
djr
5 / 5 (2) Feb 24, 2013
the trailers neglected. Why the difference? England has a crappy socialist education system too. I am not saying England is some bastion of virtue. But think about the two trailer parks, and ask - why the difference? It is about caring. I walk my dog down by the lake every day. The lake is full of mountains of trash - full of shit - put there by people who do not care. So in my view - it is not about a socialist system vs your utopian free market system. It is about talking to each other about what it means to care. There are examples of wonderful schools in America - I spent a day in an alternative public school in Queens N.Y. Boy did those teachers care. But it is a losing battle when you live in a cultural waste land. The solution is not to get rid of the union - or to start charter schools - it is to have a conversation about what a society that cares looks like. Get your head out of your academic articles Rygg - and go visit an inner city.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Feb 24, 2013
Such a crass generalization

"In a private meeting on Tuesday afternoon, 800 union delegates voted overwhelmingly to suspend the strike after classes had been halted for seven school days, which left parents at loose ends and City Hall taking legal action. "
http://www.nytime...amp;_r=0
"In 2011, fewer than 24 percent of Chicago Public Schools graduates were prepared to attend a four-year college"
"The bureaucracy of CPS, like most urban districts, has great inertia toward the comfortable. "
http://articles.c...district
"There's the absolute control of our children's education by a privately run organization, which is the teachers' union. "http://www.theroo...-parents
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Feb 24, 2013
"Steve Perry thinks you've been lied to. The CNN education contributor says that nearly every common premise used to explain underperforming schools -- the challenges of poverty, a lack of parental involvement, an underfunded public system -- is false.

As the principal of the Capital Preparatory Magnet School in Hartford, Conn., which sends 100 percent of its mostly black and Latino students to four-year colleges, Perry argues that every American child can have those same chances. "
" there's no evidence to prove that a child who's poor can't be educated at the same level as someone else. There's no proof that any family factors make a child harder to educate. "
" In Hartford, one of the lowest-performing school systems in the state, we spend $14,000 per pupil."
http://www.theroo...-parents
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (7) Feb 24, 2013
disregard
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Feb 24, 2013
"This past week, President Obama warned Americans that, if the sequester occurs, hundreds of thousands of children will lose access to Project Head Start. A new study, however, published by the Obama administration's Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) has found that students who participate in the $8 billion Head Start program actually fare worse, in some ways, than students who do not.

The study also found that positive effects of the program are not sustained into elementary school."
http://www.breitb...ractions
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Feb 24, 2013
Senator Rand Paul:
"I am convinced this will only happen when we allow school choice for everyone, rich or poor, from any background.

Let the taxes you pay for education follow each and every student to the school of your choice.
"Let's incentivize our schools to compete for students, compete for education dollars and boost innovation.

Public charter schools should be an option in providing school choice. Charter schools are independent schools that are allowed the freedom to be more innovative than traditional public schools, while being held accountable for improved student achievement.

Read more: http://www.washin...LpIJV3xc
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

School choice works in Sweden.

"Lessons on School Choice from Sweden"
http://www.forbes...-sweden/
djr
5 / 5 (1) Feb 24, 2013
"In 2011, fewer than 24 percent of Chicago Public Schools graduates were prepared to attend a four-year college"

And the reason for this is unions? No - the reason for this is complex. Do some research if you want to understand the problems of education in America. My wife has done the research. The problems are complex. Generational poverty is certainly an issue. A badly run centralized, bureaucratic school system is part of the issue. Overwhelmed parents who have to work too many hours, and cannot (or do not know how) to support their child's education is an issue. A bankrupt culture that promotes consumerism over more complex and meaningful issues. Citing examples of schools that work is important - Rygg - you need to get out of your world of books - and go visit an inner city for a couple of weeks.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Feb 24, 2013
Citing examples of schools that work is important

And the schools that work are not run by unions, demand discipline and ruffle the feathers of local school boards and politicians.

BTW, I was wondering how you measured 'care'?

ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Feb 24, 2013
"But as the charter sector grows in cities across the country, teachers unions and other pro-labor groups have said expanding charters is a "union-busting" tactic"
""I would much prefer to work at a charter school now, and be covered by the federal, National Labor Relations Act, than to be at the whim and mercy that public school teachers are of being under state law," Eigen"
http://www.wbez.o...s-104660
" Chicago's charter high schools may produce substantial positive effects on ACT scores, the probability of graduating, and the probability of enrolling in college "
http://www.rand.o...5-1.html
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Feb 24, 2013
"Now what if we told you there is new evidence of a way to significantly boost urban student graduation rates without straining cash-strapped public school systems?"
"Yes, we're talking about legislation you've bottled up that would create tuition vouchers for 30,000 kids in Chicago's worst-performing, most-crowded public schools."
" That intense demand apparently frightens teachers union officials, who have threatened to file suit against private and parochial schools if they accept students in the new school choice program this year. The unions evidently fear that Louisiana parents will learn what New York parents in the Brookings-Harvard study learned — that vouchers measurably improve students' chances of graduating and advancing to college."
http://articles.c...on-rates
What's wrong with school competition and school choice? It doesn't benefit administrators, teachers and unions.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Feb 24, 2013
""[I]t is morally wrong for superintendents of school districts to sue parents who want nothing more than what's best for their children," Barresi said in a statement. "I think Oklahomans are concerned and shocked that any school district would vindictively target the parents of special needs children with a groundless lawsuit.""
"Oklahoma has been the site of rancorous educational and political clashes over the past year. Members of the state's board of education waged a public feud with Barresi over her selection of staff—including Carter—at the state's department of education, "
http://blogs.edwe...oma.html
And of course there is the govt bureaucracies that are opposed giving up power over student indoctrination, even when it benefits the education of children.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Feb 24, 2013
"For schooling, this sickness has taken the form of denying many parents control over the kind of schooling their children receive either directly, throughchoosing and paying for the schools their children attend, or indirectly, through local political activity. Power has instead gravitated to professional educators. The sickness has been aggravated by increasing centralization and bureaucratization of schools, especially in the big cities."
"As professional educators have taken over, control by parents has weakened. In addition, the function assigned to schools has changed. They are still expected to teach the three R's and to transmit common values. In addition, however, schools are now regarded as means of promoting social mobility, racial integration, and other objectives only distantly related to their fundamental task."
http://www.edchoi...ls-.aspx

Note the 'professional educators' part?
djr
1 / 5 (1) Feb 24, 2013
And of course there is the govt bureaucracies that are opposed giving up power over student indoctrination, even when it benefits the education of children.

What indoctrination are you asserting happens. My wife teaches a very comprehensive curriculum to the pre-schoolers she works with. The school curriculum is very traditional. The kids say the pledge of allegiance every morning. If that is what you are talking about - I would agree. I totally agree that government bureaucracy is a major part of the issue. The evidence is indicating that charter schools are working in the inner city schools - but not having any effect in more suburban areas. If Charter schools work - I support them. My problem with your arguments is that you don't know how to think in a complex way. You stay stupid things like 'our liberal education system' That means nothing. The stupidity of Americans is not solely the fault of a bad education system - there are many other factors.
djr
5 / 5 (1) Feb 24, 2013
BTW, I was wondering how you measured 'care'?

It is a tough thing to quantify. I prefer to look at behaviors. Bullies do not care. When people abuse their children - they are not caring. Oklahoma has an epidemic of child abuse. DHS cannot keep up with the work load. When people throw trash out of the window of their car on to my property - they do not care. When people abuse their bodies (obesity is an epidemic in the U.S.) they do not care. When people murder, or steal from each other - they do not care. Obviously it is not an all or nothing situation - but when I walk through a society where there is a high level of caring (the French rural society I visited) I can feel the level of caring. Does that help? Watch this video for an example of how I think we are not caring on a wider scale. http://www.youtub...JYhByVYg
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Feb 24, 2013
My problem with your arguments is that you don't know how to think in a complex way.

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back praising your 'complex way' of thinking.
You stay stupid things like 'our liberal education system' That means nothing.

The socialists running the university education departments for the past several decades don't mean anything?

The free market economic systems is much too complicated for any centralized master planner to control. Students are individuals so why do you expect any centralized master planned school system can be effective?
The first step in 'complex thinking' is to recognize the complexity of economics, education, climate, etc and realize how limited one is to control such emergent systems.
Real complex thinkers, like Adam Smith, Mises, Hayek and Friedman, understood this.
djr
5 / 5 (1) Feb 24, 2013
"Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back praising your 'complex way' of thinking."

Why not? - it was a long journey to shed the one dimensional thinking that I inherited from my ultra conservative religious parents. It is hard - realizing how incredibly complex the universe is - and that I was shielded from knowing how amazing it is by a simplistic religious education. You demonstrate the inadequacy of your thinking with this statement.

"The socialists running the university education departments for the past several decades don't mean anything?"

What evidence do you have that a. our university education systems are run by socialists? and b. if these departments are run by socialists - that this is the cause of problems in our system?

I wish you could see the simplistic nature of your thinking. Just blame Obama, or blame the socialists, or blame the unions - instead of having the ability to see the complex web that our world has become.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Feb 24, 2013
it was a long journey to shed the one dimensional thinking that I inherited from my ultra conservative religious parents.

It's difficult to admit you are on a dead end path.

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."- Albert Einstein

"Intellect is not wisdom." -- Dr. Thomas Sowell

http://freedomkey...uals.htm

if these departments are run by socialists - that this is the cause of problems in our system?

You really have to ask?
You claimed to be so smart, why can't you understand the data that shows central planning fails?
Does a fish know he is in water? Does a 'professional educator' know he was indoctrinated in a socialist system?
"A 1989 study for the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching used the categories "liberal" and "conservative." It found that 70 percent of the professors in the major liberal arts colleges and research universities considered themselves liberal or moderately liberal,"
(cont)
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (9) Feb 24, 2013
"Hayek argues that exceptionally intelligent people who favor the market tend to find opportunities for professional and financial success outside the Academy (i.e., in the business or professional world). Those who are highly intelligent but ill-disposed toward the market are more likely to choose an academic career. For this reason, the universities come to be filled with those intellectuals who were favorably disposed toward socialism from the beginning."
https://mises.org/daily/2318

"Praxeology holds that in the social sciences where human beings and human choices are involved, Step 3 is impossible, since even in the most ambitious totalitarian society, it is impossible to hold all the variables constant. There cannot be controlled experiments when we confront the real world of human activity."
Praxeology as the
Method of the Social
Sciences
By Murray N. Rothbard
Wisdom is understanding the limits to predicting and controlling complex human behavior.
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (10) Feb 24, 2013
a simplistic religious education.


"There are many things you can do to increase your life expectancy: exercise, eat well, take your medication and ... go to church.

A new study finds people who attend religious services weekly live longer. "
http://www.livesc...ger.html
Faith is very complex. Maybe too complex for dj.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (7) Feb 24, 2013
"I Am Ashamed of My Country" - Rush Limbaugh

He should be.
Yah seems like its goin around eh?

"Ashamed to wear the Maple Leaf
As a new year and a new decade begin, it is time to accept an unpleasant reality: Canada's international reputation as a progressive middle power is gone. Instead, our country is increasingly seen as a human-rights-denying eco-outlaw that has lost its way and its special status as a standard bearer for a better world."

"Ashamed to be Canadian
Once again we are witnessing the level of poverty of First Nations across Canada, this time the Attawapiskat Reserve."

-Nobodys perfect eh?
Faith is very complex. Maybe too complex for dj.
Faith is very simple eh? Denying evidence is lots easier than trying to understand it. Eh?
"Intellect is not wisdom." -- Dr. Thomas Sowell
"Fear of god is the beginning of wisdom." -god. But the evidence says that the god who wrote that doesnt exist. Try to figure that one out eh? Its easy - people made it up.
djr
5 / 5 (1) Feb 24, 2013
"70 percent of the professors in the major liberal arts colleges and research universities considered themselves liberal or moderately liberal,"

You want to jab at me because I value complexity over one dimensional thinking - and you don't even realize that there is a difference between the term socialist, and the term liberal. You claimed that our education programs are being run by socialists - and supported with research about self report - liberal vs conservative. Do you know how stupid you are?

"A new study finds people who attend religious services weekly live longer."

So what? Studies also show that Japanese people live longer - are you going to convert to Japanese? Other studies show married people live longer - bad single people - go get married so that you can live longer. The explanation for the 8 years extra life expectancy of people who attend religious services is that there is emotional benefit to belonging to a social group.
djr
5 / 5 (2) Feb 24, 2013
You claimed to be so smart, why can't you understand the data that shows central planning fails?

I totally understand that central planning fails - show me where I have ever advocated central planning. Your quote about socialism - came from a 1949 essay - by F Hayek - that was totally speculative - offered no data to support it's claims - did not define it's terms. That is your support for suggesting that today's education programs are run by socialists! One interesting thing from that essay - Hayek did say "Academics tend to be highly intelligent people. Given their leftward leanings..." I imagine you would agree with Hayek's premise here that people who lean left politically are more intelligent than those on the right!
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) Feb 24, 2013
I imagine you would agree with Hayek's premise here that people who lean left politically are more intelligent than those on the right!


I didn't see that part. What Hayek did assert is that the intelligent people who were not socialists applied their creativity and talent in the market place, not the university.
People don't buy socialist ideas so they must be forced upon them by the state.
you don't even realize that there is a difference between the term socialist, and the term liberal.

Today there is no difference. Before the socialist FDR usurped the the term 'liberal' to differentiate himself from the (socialist) 'progressive' Hoover, liberal described men like John Locke and Mises.
I use socialist because it covers all the bases: fascists, 'liberals', 'progressives', statists, crony capitalists, and anyone who supports using the power of the state to control the property rights of the individual.
djr
5 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2013
"I use socialist because it covers all the bases"

Wow - for someone who clearly has trouble having an original thought - you sure play loose with terminology when it suits you. How do you think people can have a dialogue - if they make up their own definitions on the fly. Socialist is a very specific term - when you used that term - I assumed you understood what it meant. I was wrong. It is of course pointless talking with people who have different definitions of words - it is like speaking different languages. I will add you to my list of people to avoid conversations with - it is pointless talking with fools who make up their own definitions.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (8) Feb 25, 2013
@djr
I suggest that you read Rygg's comment over again. Perhaps Rygg might've gotten you to understand his meaning better if he had mentioned the names, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Tom Paine and George Washington as being the Liberals of their time. The term 'liberal' in this modern era in the U.S. has taken on a whole new meaning, in that where once it used to mean things like the 'quest for freedom from tyranny' such as in the words 'liberation', 'liberty' and the state of being less restrictive and regulatory; now the term Liberal is practically synonymous with Socialist ideals due to American Liberals having less or no concern toward overly regulated and restrictive laws and bloated government that takes away the earned wealth of one person to give to another who did not earn any of that wealth. It is a far cry from the type of Liberalism in the former USSR where the people yearned for freedom and the liberation from tyranny and restrictive laws and regulations.

kochevnik
2.3 / 5 (6) Feb 25, 2013
I use socialist because it covers all the bases: fascists, 'liberals', 'progressives', statists, crony capitalists, and anyone who supports using the power of the state to control the property rights of the individual.
Acknowledging your addiction is the first step to recovery, ryggie. Good luck
Guy_Underbridge
5 / 5 (1) Feb 25, 2013
For some strange reason, while reading some of these comments, an image of Daffy Duck in Ali Baba's cave come to mind....
djr
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 25, 2013
Sox: now the term Liberal is practically synonymous with Socialist ideals due to American Liberals having less or no concern toward overly regulated and restrictive laws and bloated government that takes away the earned wealth of one person to give to another who did not earn any of that wealth.

Perhaps you should learn to read. Here is the quote from Rygg."I use socialist because it covers all the bases: fascists, 'liberals', 'progressives', statists, crony capitalists, and anyone who supports using the power of the state to control the property rights of the individual.

Have you read any political science? Do you understand the absurdity of stating that the term fascist is a subset of the term socialist? They are two totally different philosophies. Do you not understand that?
djr
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 25, 2013
Sox: now the term Liberal is practically synonymous with Socialist ideals due to American Liberals having less or no concern toward overly regulated and restrictive laws and bloated government that takes away the earned wealth of one person to give to another who did not earn any of that wealth.

Again the same issue comes up. It sounds like you are arguing against taxation. Is that correct? Are you against the practice of taxation? If you support the practice of taxation - how do you square that with you own words above - ie: "taking away the earned wealth of one person to give to another who did not earn any of that wealth." If you are against taxation - what kind of government system do you propose.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (9) Feb 25, 2013
"taking away the earned wealth of one person to give to another who did not earn any of that wealth." If you are against taxation - what kind of government system do you propose.


Taxation is not synonymous with redistribution of wealth. Why do you assume this?
'Legal' plunder can be accomplished many ways: direct taxation, tariffs, regulations, etc.
Modernmystic
1.4 / 5 (9) Feb 25, 2013
FTA:

"No other developed nation has inequities nearly as deep or systemic; no other developed nation has, despite some efforts to the contrary, so thoroughly stacked the odds against so many of its children


No other developed nation compiles and reports its statistics as honestly as the United States either....

That doesn't mean our schools aren't in need a huge overhaul, beginning the the abolition of the current incarnation of the teacher's unions...
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (10) Feb 25, 2013
make up their own definitions on the fly.

That's what the socialists must do.
It was FDR who called himself a 'liberal' during his campaign to distinguish himself from the Hoover who called himself a 'progressive'. Both were socialists.
Basiat defined socialist in The Law over 150 years ago, Mises defined socialist quite thoroughly in Socialism.
I find those who object to these definitions are some type of socialist themselves who are uncomfortable with being associated with fascists or communists. Too bad. Socialism is as socialism does, plunder private property for redistribution.
It doesn't matter if the leaders are dictators like Stalin who murdered millions (aided and abetted by the NY Times), or elected like Obama, they all support the same thing, destruction of private property rights.
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (10) Feb 25, 2013
it is pointless talking with fools who make up their own definitions.

It's quite obvious you have your own definition of socialism since Bastiat defined term over 150 years ago and Mises wrote Socialism in 1922.
But 'liberals' constantly redefine terminology to suit their agenda.
'Gay' used to mean 'happy' until the word was hijacked.
VendicarE
1 / 5 (1) Feb 26, 2013
Does RyggTard believe that American Children have the right to be stupid if they want to be?

Or do they deny children that Liberty?

Kerry defends liberties, says Americans have "right to be stupid"

Secretary of State John Kerry offered a defense of freedom of speech, religion and thought in the United States on Tuesday telling German students that in America "you have a right to be stupid if you want to be."

http://www.reuter...20130226

VendicarE
1 / 5 (1) Feb 26, 2013
True. Government could just take all the tax money it collects and put it in a bank and never spend it.

But once it is spent of course, it has been re-distributed.

"Taxation is not synonymous with redistribution of wealth." - RyggTard

Poor RyggTard. If only he had an education.
VendicarE
1 / 5 (1) Feb 26, 2013
Indeed. Legal Plunder is what American Capitalism is all about.

Capitalism - providing the worst possible product at the highest possible price to the consumer.

"'Legal' plunder can be accomplished many ways: direct taxation, tariffs, regulations, etc." - RyggTard

Now RyggTard. Do you believe that children have the right to be ignorant if they want?

You claim that right, don't you?

VendicarE
1 / 5 (1) Feb 26, 2013
Why doesn't the accepted definition of socialism agree with your bastardized Libertarian/Randite version RyggTard?

Is it too much for us to ask Libertarians and Randites to he honest?

"Socialism: social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members." - Encyclopedia Britannica
VendicarE
1 / 5 (1) Feb 26, 2013
Are you implying that America's readily apparent collapse in education standards, is just a fantasy caused by honest Amerian reporting of education statistics?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaah..........

"No other developed nation compiles and reports its statistics as honestly as the United States either" - Mystic

Oh man...
VendicarE
1 / 5 (1) Feb 26, 2013
Is that why the Libertarian Party supports child molestation and child prostitution?

"People don't buy socialist ideas so they must be forced upon them by the state." - RyggTard

Is it why YOUR Ideological Hero Ayn Rand befriended a child molester and murderer and regarded him as a "moral superman" - her words.
Modernmystic
2.8 / 5 (10) Feb 26, 2013
Are you implying that America's readily apparent collapse in education standards, is just a fantasy caused by honest Amerian reporting of education statistics?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaah..........

"No other developed nation compiles and reports its statistics as honestly as the United States either" - Mystic

Oh man...


Did I say that? Are you a victim of the low standards, or are you just generally uncomprehending of the things you read as a rule?

I said that other countries simply DO NOT report their situation as honestly as American systems do. They disqualify millions of students for reporting for all kinds of reasons to bolster their numbers. This is not new information...
obama_socks
1.4 / 5 (9) Feb 26, 2013
Perhaps you should learn to read. Here is the quote from Rygg."I use socialist because it covers all the bases: fascists, 'liberals', 'progressives', statists, crony capitalists, and anyone who supports using the power of the state to control the property rights of the individual."
Have you read any political science? Do you understand the absurdity of stating that the term fascist is a subset of the term socialist? They are two totally different philosophies. Do you not understand that?

-djr

I did not major in Political Science at Caltech. IMO, Political Science is a garbage course of study and is a waste of tuition and other resources...unless one plans to go into teaching of future numbskulls who will also plan to go into teaching Political Science. (contd)

VendicarE
1 / 5 (2) Feb 26, 2013
Not outright, but that is what you implied, and what was self evidently your intended implication.

Do you now deny it?

"Did I say that?" - MysticalTard

obama_socks
1 / 5 (7) Feb 26, 2013
(contd)
You need to take into consideration the finer points of Socialism, Fascism, Liberalism, et al. According to one dictionary: "The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43), and the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach."

When you read that definition, you tend to realize that the United States cannot be a hotbed of Fascism due to the fact the USA is much more than one ethnic group, race, religion, culture and whatever else makes up the "melting-pot" that is the United States of America. You realize that our U.S. Constitution forbids any act of contempt for democracy, as evidenced by our people voting for our political leaders according to their conscience (and whims). (contd)
VendicarE
5 / 5 (2) Feb 26, 2013
Then perhaps you should invest in a dictionary.

"I did not major in Political Science at Caltech." SoxTard
obama_socks
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 26, 2013
(contd)
You also have to notice that it is in Europe where Fascism was sometimes prevalent in certain countries. Now let us examine the reasons why.
In Europe, the Germans live in Germany; the Poles live in Poland; the Italians live in Italy; the Spaniards live in Spain, etc.The people of each country have their national pride, culture, language, political system, and they believe that they are better than all the rest, and the cooperation between such countries are tenuous in many instances. They have their major and minor differences. When a country and its people are doing well, even wealthy, they can be a bit more accommodating toward other countries, maybe even generous. But when times are hard and the people are suffering, they tend to blame their problems on their leaders...and in turn, their leaders blame it on the other countries who may happen to be better off...or they will blame it on the Jews, the Gypsies, the homosexuals, and the Slavs. That's the rallying cry for Fascism
obama_socks
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 26, 2013
(contd)
In the United States, ethnicity, cultures, etc are scattered in most parts and anyone can live pretty much wherever he or she chooses, Fascism is virtually impossible here, no matter how far right. But Fascism has much in common with modern American Liberalism, Socialism and Progressivism where each one is dependent on AUTHORITARIANISM and a strong, bloated government to keep the populace in line and ensure that dissidents and anarchists who are willing to fight for freedom, liberty, and the strict observance of our U.S. Constitution, are unable to do so. Such American Patriots will be crushed under Liberalism/Socialism/Progressivism who must maintain their power over the people...never mind "power TO or FOR the people". The Obama administration wishes to end that "power TO and FOR the people", except in an election year where it is fully expected that the "people" will vote for Liberal-Socialists and keep them in power...since it is those politicians who promise them everythin
obama_socks
1 / 5 (7) Feb 26, 2013
Sox: now the term Liberal is practically synonymous with Socialist ideals due to American Liberals having less or no concern toward overly regulated and restrictive laws and bloated government that takes away the earned wealth of one person to give to another who did not earn any of that wealth.

Again the same issue comes up. It sounds like you are arguing against taxation. Is that correct? Are you against the practice of taxation? If you support the practice of taxation - how do you square that with you own words above - ie: "taking away the earned wealth of one person to give to another who did not earn any of that wealth." If you are against taxation - what kind of government system do you propose.
-djr

No. I am not against the idea of taxation and its FAIR enactment. Obviously, a certain amount of taxation such as federal income tax, sales, school, town, etc. are a necessary evil.
(contd)
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 26, 2013
I did not major in Political Science at Caltech
You did not major in anything anywhere. This is obvious.
In Europe, the Germans live in Germany; the Poles live in Poland; the Italians live in Italy; the Spaniards live in Spain, etc.
Fucking brilliant. Most people who have actually studied these countries, and whose brains are not soaked in latent bigotry, know full well that they are recent constructs made up of many ethnic and religious subsets, just as the US is.
they believe that they are better than all the rest
So do americans.
In the United States, ethnicity, cultures, etc are scattered in most parts and anyone can live pretty much wherever he or she chooses
This is the same in any of the countries you mentioned and in the EU as a whole. Still enjoying making shit up I see.
obama_socks
1.6 / 5 (7) Feb 26, 2013
(contd)
Certain expenses must be paid for by the government with our tax money, such as our military, national security, infrastructure, scientific research, support to our allies, and a few other things.

What is actually objectionable is, among other things, the Liberal/Socialist objective of taxing hard-working Americans through an unfairly-raised payroll tax and driving up the national debt as high as it can go by spending all that tax money so that the national debt increases almost exponentially each year. In such a spendthrift method, it appears that the Obama administration has no intention whatsoever of paying down the national debt so that our economy will start growing well again. We are a vastly debtor nation since Obama won both elections and there is no end in sight.

And Obama's campaign continues getting donations from the rich and super-rich with whom he socializes at every opportunity. Why?

Where is all that money going? Another campaign chest for the 2016 election?
obama_socks
1 / 5 (6) Feb 26, 2013
It is obvious that Thegoatofotto1923 et al sock puppets is of the false opinion that I should explain my credentials in this Physorg before I have the right to make my comments in answer to djr's query.

Poor poor Blotto...or should I say, the idolater of the infamous NAZI Otto Skorzeny - bodyguard of Adolph Hitler.
Blotto mentions 'Latent Bigotry" without a sane explanation of what it means by that. It is apparent that Theghostofotto1923 is also the creator of the sock puppet, FrankHerbert and all its variations.
FrankHerbert/Blotto was extremely preoccupied with racism and bigotry before he was most likely banned from this site...and was one of the MOST RACIST AND BIGOTED of all Blotto's sock puppets, which effectively makes Thegoatofotto 1923 a big racist and bigot as well.

I notice that Blotto hasn't found my two new sock puppets created for commenting in other threads.
Blotto is slipping and is quite insane.

m(%)m
obama_socks
1 / 5 (6) Feb 26, 2013
Then perhaps you should invest in a dictionary.

"I did not major in Political Science at Caltech." SoxTard
-Venditardietardtard...E

Seems like VDtardietardtard...E DID major in Political Science somewhere in time.

There are many reasons for investing in a dictionary. Majoring in Political Science is not one of them since there is nothing in Political Science that a high school dropout such as Theghostofotto1923/FrankHerbert et al could not comprehend.

On second thought, perhaps Blotto still has trouble comprehending comments put forth in these threads by its betters. Yes, of course. Blotto twists little pieces of comments so that they are so fucked up beyond recognition that one could have a hard time recognizing what one had posted. I will have to remember that.
m(%)m
obama_socks
1 / 5 (6) Feb 27, 2013
This is from Y1995 ~23 ya
http://www.zetter...l96b.htm

"Europe does not assimilate its ethnic groups as the United States does. There is no "European Creed" that commands the loyalty of the various Europeans as the "American Creed" commands the loyalty of US citizens of different ethnic backgrounds. To be "un-European" is merely to be different or odd, while to be "un-American" is to be a traitor to the creed. The map of the major European nationalities has not changed much in the last 100 years. Stalin did move some people around. Some smaller groups have assimilated or moved, for example, the Swedes in Estonia. Many ethnic Germans in eastern Europe have moved home. But in the main, we have no difficulty in recognizing the distribution of nationalities in Europe at the end of the twentieth century from their distribution at the beginning of the twentieth century."
(contd)
obama_socks
1 / 5 (6) Feb 27, 2013
(contd)
"Ethnicity became a major political force. During the past 150 years, as a result of wars and of political negotiations, the national borders in Europe have changed into greater conformity with the major ethnic groupings"

"Behind the political force of nationalism lies a sociological fact that the belonging to a given (maybe in some measure constructed) community, with given ties of language, traditions, historical memories (true or false), creates a strong social identity. To deny people this identity is a serious deprivation, perhaps as serious as depriving them of shelter and freedom of movement. Whether we like it or not, to celebrate ethnicity is more natural for mankind than to celebrate faith in reason."

Tribal dynamics is still alive and well in Europe and Eastern Europe. Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia) is also a good example of TD with racial violence against Whites. Race, religion, culture, language, economy are all collectively or individually reasons for intolerance
Modernmystic
2.1 / 5 (7) Feb 28, 2013
Not outright, but that is what you implied, and what was self evidently your intended implication.

Do you now deny it?


Deny what? Your imagination? I've no time or inclination to fight your mental phantoms Vendi.


ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (6) Mar 01, 2013
"George Hall Elementary School, which went from having some of the worst test scores in the county to some of the best in the state.
"
"George Hall -- where almost all of the students come from poor families -- was re-staffed in 2004 as part of Mobile County's "transformation" process.

A new principal, Terri Tomlinson, came in and recruited a new staff. Teachers received signing bonuses and extra money if their students improved performance on standardized tests -- up to $40,000 more per teacher over five years. The teachers also received specialized training on how to reach students in poverty. "
http://blog.al.co...ool.html
The article didn't say that all but two teachers were not rehired.
"Tomlinson said the success at George Hall is possible anywhere. "
Except where teacher unions control the politicians.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) Mar 01, 2013
So ryggy on a related subject, what is the difference between a fiscal cliff and a sequester, besides 3 months that is?

Is this evidence of defining an uncomfortable necessity for public consumption so that it could be made to occur at the proper Time? And is this being done with both parties and the media in concurrence/collusion?

Kind of seems that way doesnt it? Dont you feel a little manipulated?
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (6) Mar 01, 2013
So ryggy on a related subject, what is the difference between a fiscal cliff and a sequester, besides 3 months that is?

Is this evidence of defining an uncomfortable necessity for public consumption so that it could be made to occur at the proper Time? And is this being done with both parties and the media in concurrence/collusion?

Kind of seems that way doesnt it? Dont you feel a little manipulated?

The sequester is law, signed by the current regime and now being implemented which cuts govt spending.
The fiscal cliff was the end of a law that raised taxes, which the current regime wants, more of everyone's wealth and labor.
Coolidge stopped a depression by cutting govt spending and lowering tax rates creating an economic boom.