Study: Generational changes cause drop in US support for school prayer

Jan 03, 2013

There's a saying that goes, "as long as there are tests, there will be prayer in public schools." At one time, that likely reflected a fairly uniform view about school prayer: that despite what federal law said about the practice, religious Americans by and large approved of it.

A new study, however, paints a more complicated picture of attitudes toward school prayer over the last four decades, finding sharp differences in school-prayer support between different generations and their religious denominations.

Forthcoming in the journal Sociological Forum, the study maps a general decline in advocacy for school prayer starting in the mid-1970s and accelerating as skeptical became ascendant through the 1980s. According to the study's findings, school-prayer support remains markedly lower today among Catholics and mainline Protestants yet unwaveringly high among their evangelical counterparts.

University of Nebraska-Lincoln sociologist Philip Schwadel modeled data from the from 1974-2010 and created a measure for Americans' support for prayer and reading of religious scripture in public schools over the decades. The results tracked the impact of religious affiliation and generational differences on the role of religion in public education, he said.

"Social and cultural changes have led to greater opposition to state-sanctioned prayer and reading religious materials in public schools among some segments of the population," Schwadel said. "Specifically, there's growing opposition among non-evangelicals but not evangelicals, and these changes manifest across generations."

While these generational shifts have spurred changes among some denominations, evangelical Protestants have remained staunchly pro-school-prayer over the years, Schwadel said. As other religious denominations faced generationally influenced fluctuations on the topic, evangelicals persisted – more than 70 percent of evangelicals expressed support for school prayer, regardless of what generation they came from.

"What we see in these results is that there's a very clear, unwavering perspective in the evangelical community on the role of prayer in public life," he said. "While younger evangelicals seem to be more open to some issues, such as environmentalism, when it comes to key issues, they simply do not change across generations. There seem to be some bedrock issues they won't budge on."

There once was very little difference between Catholics and evangelical Protestants on the topic, particularly among those born in the early 1930s, Schwadel said. The findings also showed a relatively small difference in opinion between evangelicals and mainline Protestants for those born during that same time period.

But differences grew tremendously across generations – so that by the time those born in the 1960s and 1970s came of age, a large gap had emerged between evangelical Protestants and both mainline Protestants and Catholics.

Why? According to Schwadel's findings, the drop was related to both "period effects" and "cohort effects" – the events of the times, highlighted by several high-profile court cases on the subject, likely began to affect opinions among people of a certain age; at the same time, the general disposition of the generation going through those times was playing a major factor.

The start of the time frame in the study – the mid-1970s –were a time of high levels of support for prayer in schools compared with the following three decades, Schwadel said; at the same time, Baby Boomers began to make up more of the population. Known for their skepticism for organized religion, the Boomers likely contributed to a consistent, decade-long drop in support of school prayer to a lower overall level that remains today.

Schwadel said he had anticipated the decline among mainline Protestants; however, he was surprised to see a parallel slide in support for school prayer among Catholics, who began the 1970s virtually tied in their level of approval with evangelicals.

One possible explanation, Schwadel said, is that over time, Catholics have become more "mainstreamed" than they were in the first half of the 20th century, when they either attended parochial schools or public schools that were predominantly Catholic. Their integration into public schools may have cut into their support for school prayer because that prayer was not exclusively Catholic, Schwadel said.

The study also found:

  • Highly educated and younger respondents in the study were relatively unlikely to support prayer and reading scripture in .
  • African Americans and Southerners registered the highest levels of approval.
  • Jewish respondents indicated the lowest levels of , at 24 percent. Those who said they are unaffiliated with an organized religion were at 37 percent.
"These results are relevant to debates regarding the social impact of , generational differences and Americans' views of the role of religion in the public sphere," he said.

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freethinking
2.1 / 5 (26) Jan 03, 2013
Could it be, many of those who belong in mainline and Catholic churches are no longer Christian, or are Christian in Name only?
Lurker2358
1.6 / 5 (7) Jan 03, 2013
Could it be, many of those who belong in mainline and Catholic churches are no longer Christian, or are Christian in Name only?


That's already known.

About 70% of people who call themselves Christian don't know fundamental "required" tenets of Christianity, and most cannot name two books/letters in the Bible when asked to do so.
Anglachel
5 / 5 (5) Jan 03, 2013
Could it be that an increasing number of Christians in the US do not see the point in forcing a particular religion on children in schools?

On a more serious note:

What are the percentages for and against prayer in schools? And how much did they change?

How does this compare to the secularization experienced in many European countries, many of which no longer have prayer in schools and where politics and religion appears to be more separated then in the US?
that_guy
4.5 / 5 (8) Jan 03, 2013
I think you have to flatly oppose prayer in school if you're a constitutionalist...and evangelicals should learn to separate their religion from everyone else's politics.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" - Meaning that congress, and by extension, any part of the federal government, cannot single out one religion, or one set of religions to raise up above the others. If we do not hold a muslim, hindi, shinto, buddhist, etc prayer or meditation service in school, we don't get a christian one either.

And let me make this perfectly clear to you oppressive religious nuts - You can pray personally as much as you feel like. Personal freedom to pray oneself is not what this issue is about.

If you think that your members and children have such weak character, that they will stray if the principle is not leading a prayer every morning, then obviously, your members aren't the kind of christians described in the bible with strong convictions with god...
VendicarD
2.1 / 5 (11) Jan 03, 2013
Percentage is a pagan concept that was invented by Lucifer as a means to distance the faithful from the God of the Bible.
Lurker2358
1.4 / 5 (9) Jan 03, 2013
That_guy:

You conveniently forgot the "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Preaching and personal testimony are required to freely exercise Christianity, and it goes without saying that the same is true of prayer.

Since the congress cannot legally prohibit the free exercise thereof, they are in fact violating the constitution by banning school prayer.
VendicarD
2.5 / 5 (11) Jan 03, 2013
Fools and liars like to claim that prayer has been banned in U.S. schools. But of course that is not the case.

Children have always been able to pray in school.

"they are in fact violating the constitution by banning school prayer." - LurkerTard

But teachers - as employees of the state - can not initiate or conduct prayer in schools because it violates the prohibition of the state sponsoring a specific religion.
VendicarD
2.4 / 5 (11) Jan 03, 2013
Ignorance is the American way of life.

"About 70% of people who call themselves Christian don't know fundamental "required" tenets of Christianity" - Lurker

For most Christians, having faith that their Christian faith is sanctioned Christianity is good enough for them.
kochevnik
2.8 / 5 (13) Jan 04, 2013
Since the congress cannot legally prohibit the free exercise thereof, they are in fact violating the constitution by banning school prayer.
So why aren't your kids bowing to Mecca five times a day? You're violating the constitution!
VendicarD
2.8 / 5 (11) Jan 04, 2013
Kochevnik asks great questions.

Republicans invariably are incapable of answering them.

It is as if grade 5 level logic is rocket science to these backward Conservatard hicks.

antialias_physorg
4.6 / 5 (9) Jan 04, 2013
"as long as there are tests, there will be prayer in public schools."

Erm. I'm fairly sure that that statement is supposed to be a humorous (i.e. the students praying fervently for an easy test) - and has nothing todo with official school prayer practices.

And when all is said and done: The only people that care about school prayers are people who aren't in school. Students couldn't care less.

(And from a judicial standpoint school prayer flies in the face of separation of church and state, anyhow. Schools are a state institution)
freethinking
2 / 5 (29) Jan 04, 2013
Reminds me of a comic strip I saw a while ago. Kid in hall way swears, looks around and nothing happens, yells I love the devil, looks around and nothing happens, yells chistians are stupid, looks around and nothing happens, yells drugs are great, looks around and nothing happens, then he opens a bible, next scene he is jumped on by teachers, lawyers, police, etc. all saying separation of church and state.

Unfortunately it's true, teachers are afraid even to say Merry Christmas to students, students are prevented from saying who inspires them (unless whoever it is is politically correct).

BTW, THERE IS NO SEPARATION of church and state. It is more accurately defined as speparation of STATE and Church. The Church has every right to be involved in the State, it is the STATE that has no right to be involved in the Church.
kochevnik
3.7 / 5 (15) Jan 04, 2013
The Church has every right to be involved in the State, it is the STATE that has no right to be involved in the Church.
Too bad for you it's no longer the 15th centruy
freethinking
1.8 / 5 (29) Jan 04, 2013
So according to Koch, the STATE rules. Everyone is a servant to the STATE. We need to bow down and worship the almighty state.

Reminds me of the Communist states. Oh yea, right, that is what Progressives want. STATE uber ALLES.

Churches, have as much right to be involved with the State/Government as any group. Only Progressive bigots believe otherwise.
kochevnik
3.8 / 5 (16) Jan 04, 2013
So according to Koch, the STATE rules. Everyone is a servant to the STATE. We need to bow down and worship the almighty state.
Actually I'm for human rights and the law. Indeed it is you peckerwoods who are inclined to worship X, where X is a random variable. State, invisible friend etc. It's all the same
Churches, have as much right to be involved with the State/Government as any group. Only Progressive bigots believe otherwise.
And the state has the right to tax and regulate your silly cult accordingly. I doubt progressives will object.
Modernmystic
4.1 / 5 (12) Jan 04, 2013
As societies and civilizations get more perceived control over their environment and circumstances they have less and less need for religion. If you know you can plant way more food than you need and can store it reliably through the year you don't really need to worry about sacrificing 20 people to appease the "crop god".

It's the same with individual human beings. As they get more and more self actualized and realize that they're indeed grown-ups, everything is going to be OK, and not every little thing in their life is a drama bomb they don't need to appease their deity by hating other human beings or giving 10% of what they earn to have the "big guy" on their side in day to day life.

Just my opinion.
freethinking
1.9 / 5 (26) Jan 04, 2013
MM, your theory fails. All people die and no one know when. If you think you have control of your life, you are sadly mistaken.

Just had a aunt who died unexpectedly over Christmas. What about the Kids who were murdered? What about those in the twin towers. What about the man pushed in front of the train? I know a neighbor who will most probably die of brain cancer in the next few months.

Only a fool believes they have any control over their lives.

It looks like we are going to have the worst flu season, how many healthy people are going to die? A war anytime, a dirty bomb, a earthquake, a terrorist, Obama continuing to destroy the economy.

The list goes on and on and on.
freethinking
2 / 5 (25) Jan 04, 2013
Interestingly, only children and fools believe they are indestructible.

MM, unfortunately you and many others including many christians think that God is under our control. If anyone thinks by going to church or giving 10% is going to control what God does, they are mistaken. Just digressing a bit, the biggest heresy in todays church is success theology.

Koch, then unless you a hypocrite you agree that the state should also tax every other nonprofit like Planned Parenthood, unions, and environmental groups. This way everyone is treated fairly. However I doubt Progressives would agree to this.
kochevnik
3.8 / 5 (13) Jan 04, 2013
Koch, then unless you a hypocrite you agree that the state should also tax every other nonprofit like Planned Parenthood, unions, and environmental groups. This way everyone is treated fairly. However I doubt Progressives would agree to this.
Endorsing candidates to their congregations or otherwise engaging in political machinations means you are no longer a nonprofit, and you lose your tax exemption. Churches should be taxed anyway. They are for-profit organizations and, as you clearly demonstrate, they are all about stymieing progress.

It seems you have no regard for the law
VendicarD
3 / 5 (12) Jan 04, 2013
Must have been drawn by a dishonest person, probably a Christian.

"then he opens a bible, next scene he is jumped on by teachers, lawyers, police, etc. all saying separation of church and state." - FreeTard

Such cartoons that promote ignorance are to be avoided.
freethinking
2.2 / 5 (24) Jan 05, 2013
So unions and planned parenthood are breaking the law and must be taxed.
MandoZink
3 / 5 (4) Jan 05, 2013
MM, unfortunately you and many others including many christians think that God is under our control. If anyone thinks by going to church or giving 10% is going to control what God does, they are mistaken.

That's a fairly decent example of a belief system perspective. It illuminates the substance of what is changing over generations as indicated by the study. The fact-based understanding that science provides is progressively replacing the variety of inherited mythologies passed on by our ancestors. It understandably causes great emotional discomfort to those who resist an analytical assessment of their acquired convictions.

Such cartoons that promote ignorance are to be avoided.

Nah. Even such bastions of resistance need to humor themselves.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (8) Jan 05, 2013
So according to Koch, the STATE rules. Everyone is a servant to the STATE. We need to bow down and worship the almighty state.

No, because it says somewhere on some slip of paper "we the people..."
The state is beholden to the people. And the people vote for who represents them as representatives of the state.

IF people want church influence in state matters they can go about changing the part that mandates separation of church and state. But until that day when the people vote to change the US into a theocracy that spearation stands - and should be followed.
MandoZink
4.3 / 5 (6) Jan 05, 2013
That's a fairly decent example of a belief system perspective. It illuminates the substance of what is changing over generations as indicated by the study. The fact-based understanding that science provides is progressively replacing the variety of inherited mythologies passed on by ....

My apologies. This was my first comment here in over six months. (I did 180 days in jail for cutltivation of..., uh... chemotherapy relief production)
I did not realize how caustic and contentious the comments (commenters) on this site had become. In the past I have always tried to be accurate, coherent and polite.

In light of the apparent spirit of these postings I would like to say most of you suck, and the rest of you can probably go to hell for all I care.

Well I hope I'm just kidding.

I'm back.
kochevnik
3.5 / 5 (11) Jan 05, 2013
So unions and planned parenthood are breaking the law and must be taxed.
They're not religions. Religion was singled out in the establishment clause due to historic abuse of government by religious nutters
Eikka
5 / 5 (9) Jan 06, 2013
So according to Koch, the STATE rules. Everyone is a servant to the STATE. We need to bow down and worship the almighty state.


In a civilized society, it's the LAW that rules, instituted by the state, which itself is controlled by the people.

The law is decided upon on strictly practical and logical reason instead of mere popular opinion or by figures of authority, beacause they're both subservient to the law. The law is more like mathematics: it should be self-evident once presented, and rise from universally accepted standards like human rights and egalitarianism.

TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (13) Jan 06, 2013
There's a saying that goes, "as long as there are tests, there will be prayer in public schools."
Schools are in the business of acquainting students with reality; cause and effect. This begins by showing them that only studying will get them good grades on tests, not begging some god to give them the answers.

That would be cheating wouldn't it? WOULDNT IT??

Only hard work should be able to produce results in this world and not special favors from tribal deities; and by extension, affiliations with sects, congregations, neighborhoods, social classes, races, gender, or the like. This sort of favored status is what RELIGION seeks to sell to the impressionable. School is where it should be defeated.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (14) Jan 06, 2013
don't know fundamental "required" tenets of Christianity, and most cannot name two books/letters in the Bible when asked to do so
There's a YouTube vid of dan dennett, the philo antireligionist, proposing that there SHOULD be mandatory courses in grade schools which teach the basic beliefs and functions and histories of all the religions.

Youngsters should be taught exactly how the things that they are learning at home and in their places of worship fit into the greater scheme if things; where these beliefs come from, what they share with other beliefs, and what science has discovered about them. I happen to think this is a very good idea.

It is said that fundamentalism cannot survive in a culture which protects the existence of all religions. And I don't believe that any religion can survive scrutiny when it is presented reasonably and factually alongside it's brethren, and in the context of rational scientific inquiry.

So let's do it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (13) Jan 06, 2013
Here it is
http://www.youtub...a_player

-So let's DO IT. How about it lurker, ft, mm, kevin, julian? What are you afraid of? What have you got TO LOSE haha? And what have we all to gain?
that_guy
3 / 5 (4) Jan 06, 2013
That_guy:

You conveniently forgot the "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Preaching and personal testimony are required to freely exercise Christianity, and it goes without saying that the same is true of prayer.

Since the congress cannot legally prohibit the free exercise thereof, they are in fact violating the constitution by banning school prayer.

Lurker:
You conveniently forgot that this issue does not concern one's own practicing of religion (Praying in school yourself). I even pointed that out for you, retard.
djr
5 / 5 (6) Jan 06, 2013
freethinking: "then he opens a bible, next scene he is jumped on by teachers, lawyers, police, etc. all saying separation of church and state." - "Unfortunately it's true"

Where do you live that this kind of rubbish is true? Here in Oklahoma U.S.A. - they pray at the High School football games, they have morning prayers around the flagpole, they pray to Jesus at the graduation ceremonies, and have a highly religious - school sponsored baccalaureate. Separation of church and state has not made it to this part of the world yet. I object to the reciting of the pledge every morning by five year olds - but not a fight I was ready to have. "One nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all!!!!" Not sure what world you live in freethinking.
Caliban
2.6 / 5 (5) Jan 06, 2013

I blame the erosion of traditional Judeo-Xian belief, and the stubborn persistence of Fundamentalism, on LibertaRandite RepCon FreiMarket Capitalism and its relentless promotion here in the US and elsewhere.

That's right --the LRRCFMC gangsters have hollowed out the old time religion of your forefathers, and replaced it with MAMMON WORSHIP.

Like Dylan said, "You Gotta Serve Somebody".

So which is it? Make up your minds.

Not that I, personally, give a flying flip.

The "Life of Justification", literally --and indeed.

FrankHerbert
1.7 / 5 (11) Jan 06, 2013
I loves me some mammon.
Sweet sweet mammon.
RitchieGuy01
Jan 07, 2013
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Modernmystic
3.7 / 5 (6) Jan 07, 2013
MM, your theory fails. All people die and no one know when. If you think you have control of your life, you are sadly mistaken.


Religion is an attempt to control life. I fully understand how little control I have over most things in my life and, unlike most religious people I know I'm perfectly fine with it most of the time.

MM, unfortunately you and many others including many christians think that God is under our control.


First of all I don't believe in god, so whether or not I think he's "under control" is kind of a moot point. Secondly if believing in a god and following the rules offers you no benefits then why do it?

Moreover as I understand christian theology you if you obey god he has his protection over you, if you don't he withdraws it. Shall we talk more about control? Sounds more like people trying to control other people to me...and good luck with that.

RitchieGuy01
1.8 / 5 (10) Jan 07, 2013
I loves me some mammon.
Sweet sweet mammon.
GhostofOtto/FrankHerbert

So who is this mammon that U are in love with, Otto? The devil of covetousness, maybe?
It can't be a god that seduced U, eh? U always say U don't believe in gods, but now U got religion?
LOL. . . . .and your whole campaign against godders is fraying at the edges, darling Otto.
freethinking
2 / 5 (20) Jan 08, 2013
MM someone or something always controls our lives.

If you have the State, it is the state that determines your worth and that can change anytime for any reason. See how that worked for the Jews under Hitler, or the people under Stalin.
FrankHerbert
2.5 / 5 (16) Jan 08, 2013
The Romans did pretty well with their pagan religion. It wasn't until they adopted Christianity that things went down the tubes. And non-religious states do quite well. The US despite your best efforts doesn't officially endorse any religion. Also, most of Europe is considered high functioning and is becoming evermore atheist.

The whole christianity equals national success line is a bunch of crap. Lazy to the core.
Modernmystic
3.9 / 5 (7) Jan 08, 2013
If you have the State, it is the state that determines your worth and that can change anytime for any reason.


We have a State. We have a Republic/Liberal democracy. We don't have a theocracy. Therefore, I'm trying to find your point and failing....
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (15) Jan 08, 2013
If you have the State, it is the state that determines your worth and that can change anytime for any reason. See how that worked for the Jews under Hitler
Hitler the roman catholic you mean? Hitler with the full support of the roman catholic church you mean? Hitler whose troops wore 'Gott mit Uns' on their belt buckles, and whose SS swore an oath 'so wahr mir Gott helfe'... That hitler, right?

And the stalin whose philosophy made repeated reference to the soul and the spirit and the afterlife, just like any (other) religion, correct?

Rejecting YOUR particular god or sect does not necessarily mean rejecting god, or all the little tricks that all religions and pseudo-religions use to enthrall the masses now does it?

Because they work SO well at compelling dupes to kill and die. Dont they?

So how about it? Lets make pan-religious instruction mandatory in schools. All religions side by side in fair and honest comparison. What the heck - lets throw in communism as well.
Socialist_DirtBag
2.7 / 5 (7) Jan 08, 2013
Ghost, isn't it time for you to get off your anti-religion soap box and learn to be more tolerant of atheists and religionists?
Oh, that's right, you are already in love with atheists such as Dawkins, the very homosexual Christopher Hutchins, and all those others who wear their atheism on their sleeve instead of being private about it. They ALL have their own little soap box that supposedly make them unique and enlightened, and they desperately want to take the kids of religious parents and teach them the ways of the unbeliever as though that was any better than learning to love the Judeo-Christian God.

You know what? Even though I'm a card-carrying Socialist and a lot of people are against Socialism in America, I draw the line when it comes to being against the Judeo-Christian religion of whatever denomination.

In fact, just about the ONLY religion that exists that is dangerous is the religion of Islam, because Islam, just like Ghost, is extremely INTOLERANT of other religions.
freethinking
2.3 / 5 (25) Jan 08, 2013
come on Otto you know as well as I do Hitler was not a Christian, he was a progressive, you are taking the lessons you learned from Joseph Goebbels too far.

MM, the state has become your god and is the god of the progressives. It is your supreme being. You will obey it. It will supply all you needs, it will protect you, it will determine your worth if any.
kochevnik
3 / 5 (6) Jan 08, 2013
In fact, just about the ONLY religion that exists that is dangerous is the religion of Islam, because Islam, just like Ghost, is extremely INTOLERANT of other religions.
Islam is simply coming into vogue and catching up with what xtians have been doing for a millennium. Monotheism is the embodiment of intolerance, and all the Abrahamic religions are monotheistic. If you believe that your god is the source of everything, all heretics must be flaws in the grand design: A problem requiring remediation. In concert with a god demanding to be pleased, monotheism is a powder keg
FrankHerbert
2.4 / 5 (14) Jan 08, 2013
In a radio address October 14, 1933 Hitler stated, "For eight months we have been waging a heroic battle against the Communist threat to our Volk, the decomposition of our culture, the subversion of our art, and the poisoning of our public morality. We have put an end to denial of God and abuse of religion. We owe Providence humble gratitude for not allowing us to lose our battle against the misery of unemployment and for the salvation of the German peasant."

http://en.wikiped..._atheism

Anti-communist and anti-atheist freethinking. You can't take everything your lying pastor says for granted.
FrankHerbert
2.6 / 5 (15) Jan 08, 2013
During negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of April 26, 1933 Hitler argued that "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith."


"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler
kochevnik
3 / 5 (8) Jan 08, 2013
freeOfThinking: come on Otto you know as well as I do Hitler was not a Christian, he was a progressive, you are taking the lessons you learned from Joseph Goebbels too far.
It's so easy to disprove you:
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"

[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

More: http://scienceblo...e-was-q/
freethinking
2.5 / 5 (21) Jan 08, 2013
Please remember I'm not catholic:

Hitler's Nazism was fully contrary to the Church. When this was recognized and condemned by the bishops in Germany, Hitler's response to the bishops was to send all the Jewish Catholics he could find to the death camps. This move of Hitler claimed the lives of hundreds, including St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, a.k.a., Edith Stein.
Caliban
2.6 / 5 (5) Jan 08, 2013
MM someone or something always controls our lives.

If you have the State, it is the state that determines your worth and that can change anytime for any reason. See how that worked for the Jews under Hitler, or the people under Stalin.


Actually, free, it is the Banksters and the Insurance Actuaries that determine your worth.

Both of which are freimarket entities.

The only time the Gubment makes that determination is in regard to tax fraud or evasion. According to the provisions of the Tax Code.

How many times have you been assessed by the IRS to determine your Net Worth?

I would say that you are clueless, but that would be entirely too charitable.

No, unfortunately, your "ignorance" is knowingly, willingly, and consistently ideologically self-inflicted.

freethinking
2.3 / 5 (21) Jan 08, 2013
How then do we account for Hitler's claim that in carrying out his anti-Semitic program he was an instrument of divine providence? During his ascent to power, Hitler needed the support of the German people -- both the Bavarian Catholics and the Prussian Lutherans -- and to secure this he occasionally used rhetoric such as "I am doing the Lord's work." To claim that this rhetoric makes Hitler a Christian is to confuse political opportunism with personal conviction. Hitler himself says in Mein Kampf that his public statements should be understood as propaganda that bears no relation to the truth but is designed to sway the masses.

Simply stated Progressives like Hitler and even Obama use christians language.

Hitler's Table Talk, a revealing collection of the Fuhrer's private opinions, assembled by a close aide during the war years, shows Hitler to be rabidly anti-religious. He called Christianity one of the great "scourges" of history.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (11) Jan 08, 2013
come on Otto you know as well as I do Hitler was not a Christian, he was a progressive, you are taking the lessons you learned from Joseph Goebbels too far.
No I do know that you know very little.
http://www.youtub...FFW0sbF4

-And further you refuse to educate yourself. HOW COME?
freethinking
2.3 / 5 (21) Jan 08, 2013
Hitler reserved special scorn for the Christian values of equality and compassion, which he identified with weakness. Hitler's leading advisers like Goebbels, Himmler, Heydrich and Bormann were atheists who hated religion and sought to eradicate its influence in Germany.

Sounds a lot like the Progressives of today.
freethinking
2.3 / 5 (21) Jan 08, 2013
historian Richard Evans writes that "the Nazis regarded the churches as the strongest and toughest reservoirs of ideological opposition to the principles they believed in." Once Hitler and the Nazis came to power, they launched a ruthless drive to subdue and weaken the Christian churches in Germany. Evans points out that after 1937 the policies of Hitler's government became increasingly anti-religious.

The Nazis stopped celebrating Christmas, and the Hitler Youth recited a prayer thanking the Fuhrer rather than God for their blessings. Clergy regarded as "troublemakers" were ordered not to preach, hundreds of them were imprisoned, and many were simply murdered. Churches were under constant Gestapo surveillance. The Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers.
freethinking
2.3 / 5 (21) Jan 08, 2013
The Nazis also drew on the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, adapting his atheist philosophy to their crude purposes. Nietzsche's vision of the ubermensch and his elevation of a new ethic "beyond good and evil" were avidly embraced by Nazi propagandists. Nietzsche's "will to power" almost became a Nazi recruitment slogan. I am not for a moment suggesting that Darwin or Nietzsche would have approved of Hitler's ideas. But Hitler and his henchmen approved of Darwin's and Nietzsche's ideas. Harris simply ignores the evidence of the Nazis' sympathies for Darwin, Nietzsche, and atheism. So what sense can we make of his claim that the leading Nazis were "knowingly or unknowingly" agents of religion? Clearly, it is nonsense.

TheGhostofOtto1923
2.2 / 5 (13) Jan 08, 2013
Its funny how you bandy the word progressive about in a religious context. Dont you know that your little godman was the penultimate revolutionary? He showed martyrs and pacifists for millenia just how to lay down their lives in righteous revolt against the status quo.

He rode his ass into the holy city on the holiest of days, disrupted state-sanctioned commerce in the temple, walked right up to the head priests and declared that he was not only their king but their GOD; thereby demanding by this heresy that he be executed.

Jesus invented progressivism. He was the first and the best. 'If you dont hate your parents, your siblings, and even your own life, you cant love me.' -says the protostalinist. 'Trust me - things will be simply heavenly when we're done.'
FrankHerbert
2.1 / 5 (14) Jan 08, 2013
During negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of April 26, 1933 Hitler argued that "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith."


"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (15) Jan 08, 2013
historian Richard Evans writes that "the Nazis regarded the churches as the strongest and toughest reservoirs of ideological opposition to the principles they believed in."
-So? All your religions say the exact same things about all the others. Nazism resented competition just like you guys do. His sect and no other. But hitler was indeed a catholic and his antisemitic ideals were taught to germans for centuries by the church.

The pope and the NSDAP
http://en.wikiped...r's_Pope

-So did you watch the hitchens clip or not??
Estevan57
2.5 / 5 (33) Jan 08, 2013
Nice sockpuppet flood you got going with Otto and Frank.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (11) Jan 08, 2013
But Hitler and his henchmen approved of Darwin's and Nietzsche's ideas. Harris simply ignores the evidence of the Nazis' sympathies for Darwin
No you did NOT watch the hitchens clip. Evolution was 'jewish science'. Supermen did not evolve from APES.

Your church propagandists conflate nietzsche darwinism and nazism. This is an obvious LIE, as is the notion that nazis werent fighting and dying by the millions, and killing millions of innocent people because they fully believed that THEIR GOD wanted it so.

Your god - the XIAN god.

Same one, same book. You really ought to edit out all the evil which causes these things, and the lies which make them seem like a good idea. But then there would be very little left would there?
FrankHerbert
2.4 / 5 (14) Jan 08, 2013
You know damn well I'm not otto, pussytard.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (14) Jan 08, 2013
You know damn well I'm not otto, pussytard.
Esai tries so hard to be visible. Lots of very small people do this.
freethinking
2.3 / 5 (24) Jan 08, 2013
Otto, anyone who claims Hitler was a Christian is an idiot.

Anyone that denies that Hitler was a Progressive is ignorant or a liar.

FrankHerbert
2.4 / 5 (14) Jan 08, 2013
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction"-Adolf Hitler
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.2 / 5 (13) Jan 08, 2013
Otto, anyone who claims Hitler was a Christian is an idiot.
Yes I know, faith is belief DESPITE evidence. Evidence tells us that hitler was a catholic, and that he was selling an obviously pseudoreligious doctrine. So was the grand inquisitor.

So was joshua for that matter. Was he wrong to slaughter canaanites en masse just because god told him to? God told hitler to do exactly the SAME THING to jews, poles, and gypsies.

For hitler the promised land was lebensraum and he was only doing what joshua and gideon did according to gods will. Why else?
Anyone that denies that Hitler was a Progressive is ignorant or a liar.
We have already determined that you do not know what the word means. So how would you know?
freethinking
2.4 / 5 (23) Jan 08, 2013
Historian Paul Johnson wrote that Hitler hated Christianity with a passion, adding that shortly after assuming power in 1933, Hitler told Hermann Rauschnig that he intended "to stamp out Christianity root and branch."

As Hitler grew in power, he made other anti-Christian statements. For example, he was quoted in Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, by Allan Bullock, as saying: "I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews."
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (15) Jan 08, 2013
Who, this guy?

"Paul Bede Johnson (born 2 November 1928) is an English journalist, historian, speechwriter and author. He was educated at the Jesuit independent school Stonyhurst College, and at Magdalen College, Oxford...Johnson is a critic of modernity because of what he sees as its moral relativism, and finds objectionable those who use Charles Darwin's theory of evolution...As a result of Johnson's views on evolution, Richard Dawkins has been a target of Johnson's pen in the past. As a conservative Catholic, Johnson regards liberation theology as a heresy..."

-etc. PROPAGANDA. Cant you tell the difference?
freethinking
2.5 / 5 (22) Jan 08, 2013
More Proof Otto is an idiot for claming Hitler was a christian:
Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools.

Jehuda Bauer, Professor of Holocaust Studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, describes the real "god" of Hitler and the Nazis in his article, "The Trauma of the Holocaust: Some Historical Perspectives," by saying: ""They wanted to go back to a pagan world, beautiful, naturalistic, where natural hierarchies based on the supremacy of the strong would be established, because strong equaled good, powerful equaled civilized. The world did have a kind of God, the merciless God of nature, the brutal God of races, the oppressive God of hierarchies." In other words, definitely non-Christian.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (16) Jan 08, 2013
More Proof Otto is an idiot for claming Hitler was a christian
Again, not me dear godder but many many authorities on the subject which you choose to ignore.
Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools.
Correct. Because it WAS a religion complete with a chosen people, a promised land, eternal life in himmel for the faithful, and a Gott which promised all of this, and who graciously provided a savior in their time of need.
""They wanted to go back to a pagan world, beautiful, naturalistic
Sure. More godders trying to distance them and their creeds from the all too obvious results of them. This is understandable. Joshua good. Hitler bad. Conclusion - nationalist zionists still have a god-given right to judea and samaria, and can take it by force.

Because god is on THEIR side.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (15) Jan 08, 2013

Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools.
-Like the book of Mormon and the Quran. All prophets get to write their own book. So what?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (16) Jan 08, 2013
Xian values - read John 3 and skip over 16. Unbelievers are evil and a direct threat to your Xian values. They demean the sacrifice your god made for your salvation. They are EVIL - so it says.

And what do we do with evil people? History shows us that they are killed in burning churches, temples, and mosques. And gas chambers.
freethinking
2.3 / 5 (21) Jan 08, 2013
Joseph Goebbels, 12/28/1939: "The Führer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian; he views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race. Both [Judaism and Christianity] have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end, they will be destroyed." (Boelcke 1970).

Ludendorff, 1935: "The days of the Cross are counted. We must deliver the German nation from the pernicious influence of Christianity." (Quoted in Anti-Semitism Throughout the Ages, by Count Heinrich Coudenhove-Kalergi. 1935.)
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (15) Jan 08, 2013
Indeed.

""Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to that great church; which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." (The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10)

"Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." (Documentary History of the Church, Introduction, xl)

"I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian Churches), for they were all wrong...that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

"...orthodox Christian views of God are PAGAN rather than Christian." (Mormon Doctrine of Deity by B.H. Roberts)"

-You guys ALL do this. Nazism was a little less orthodox but it included ALL the key points of the judeo-Xian story line. Smith also began as a Xian.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (14) Jan 08, 2013
He was right you know. Judeo-Xian is decidedly pagan. The Egyptian trinity, Mary the earth mother, the flood, the chosen people, the promised land, the amalgamated godman, the virgin birth on dec 25, the crucifixion, the resurrection... all done and copied many times BEFORE your guy showed up.

Even the cross, specifically the Methodist, is an iteration of the zodiac sunwheel, known for millennia by devout pagans everywhere before the late great jesus was affixed to it.

Nothing new under the sun/son.

Religions have evolved, keeping what works and discarding what doesn't. This is glaringly obvious in the abrahamic tradition.

Kids need to KNOW these things. They need to be taught them in an atmosphere of neutrality and objective reason. They need to know what archeology and exegesis have told us about the history of ALL the religions.

And then they can go home and enlighten their parents. Don't you agree ft? '...not peace but a sword...' To destroy families. Per Jesus himself.
Modernmystic
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 09, 2013
MM, the state has become your god and is the god of the progressives.


No, I don't believe in a god. Further I don't even believe in the concept. We've been over this. I agree that some people treat the state like a god. I really see this with respect to the environment and the environmental movement specifically. As far as I'm concerned the state is the state...go fish.

You will obey it. It will supply all you needs, it will protect you, it will determine your worth if any.


You will obey it too, it won't supply all my needs, it doesn't protect me all that well, and only I determine my worth. So 1 out of 4 isn't bad I guess?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (12) Jan 09, 2013
Jesus destroys families twice...

"34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

"'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law —
36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

37 "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it." matt10

-First when the youngsters fall for the lies of salvation and heavenly reward, and then again when their children come to understand that these are in fact, lies.
freethinking
2.5 / 5 (19) Jan 09, 2013
Great Otto, you can quote the Bible just like the Devil can.

Jesus gave two commandments, which if followed actually does pits those who hate, ie. Otto vs others.

Matthew 22 37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Now, Otto what is Love.

1 Corinthians 13 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
freethinking
2.4 / 5 (20) Jan 09, 2013
So for someone to be a Christian they need at least

1. believe that Jesus is God as is John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2. Believe that Jesus is the ONLY way: John 14 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well.

3. You must also agree to the two commandments Jesus gives about love.

Hitler based on his actions and words didn't show love, he denied God and tried to undermine the Church, etc. He definitely was not a Christian.

So for you to call Hitler a christian, tell me which of the two commands of Christ he followed?

TheGhostofOtto1923
1.6 / 5 (13) Jan 10, 2013
You all love to accentuate the positive and ignore the obvious. The ENTIRE message in john 3:

"18...but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were EVIL. 20 Everyone who does EVIL hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed..."

(furious pageturning)

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." matt5

-And you KNOW what the LAW says must be done with EVILDOERS. History tells us that xians throughout the ages understood the implications VERY WELL.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (16) Jan 10, 2013
You can interpret scripture any way you want. But what it SAYS is very clear. It says exactly what all the books say; that believers are the rightful inheritors of heaven and earth, and that unbelievers are a danger to this.

And when god does not visit his retribution upon unbelievers, which he NEVER does (because after all hes not there) he demands that his loyal subjects do it FOR him.

Why didnt xians discard the OT if all they needed was love? Because there is a TIME to love and a TIME to hate. A Time to kill and a Time to present oneself for killing. There is a Time for the OT and a Time for the NT.

History also tells us that xians spent a lot more time hating and killing and getting killed than they did loving, just like their counterparts in the other religions did. This is the only reason WHY your religion survived this Unnatural Selection Process.

Read the WHOLE book and see the WHOLE message. Accept the EVIL it has done, and is doing, and will ALWAYS do until it is ended.
synoptic
2 / 5 (4) Jan 10, 2013
† Romans 3:20

20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
freethinking
2 / 5 (20) Jan 11, 2013
Otto, you are a liar.

Luke 6: 27 "But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.

No retribution here. Jesus commands us to love our enemies.
freethinking
2.1 / 5 (19) Jan 11, 2013
Otto instead of taking verses out of context, read the whole Bible. Again what are Christians told to do.

Romans 12 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[e]

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
freethinking
2.1 / 5 (19) Jan 11, 2013
Again Otto if you would read the bible in context and find out what biblical love is.
1 John 3 11 We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters,if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.
freethinking
2.1 / 5 (18) Jan 11, 2013
The Bible does command us to speak the truth. However the world hates the truth just as you do.

The Bible has two commandments, to love God and love our neighbor, and even tells us what true love is.

The world teaches us that love is a feeling, and that we should love ourselves first. This type of love actually produces hate.

So Otto, are you a liar in stating Hitler was a christian following the Bible, or a fool for thinking so, or just ingnorant.

If you are a liar, I hope you change. If you are a fool, I hope you find wisdom. If you are ignorant, I hope you have learned the truth.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (15) Jan 11, 2013
"16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters."

-Martyrdom for a nonexistant god is every bit as evil as pogrom.
So Otto, are you a liar in stating Hitler was a christian following the Bible, or a fool for thinking so, or just ingnorant.
READ JOSHUA and get back to me. Again you read the pleasant parts and ignore the nasty ones. But they are still there whenever they are needed.
freethinking
2.1 / 5 (19) Jan 13, 2013
Otto, read the whole Bible.... as shown many times liars such as yourself and even the devil quote the bible, deny the truth, distort, outright lie, then misquote.

You said Hitler was a Christian. You lied and I showed why. You deny plainly spoken words of Jesus. You Have been caught misquoting many times, and on and on it goes.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (16) Jan 13, 2013
as shown many times liars such as yourself and even the devil quote the bible, deny the truth, distort, outright lie, then misquote.
OK. Explain to me exactly how I was lying. Did I fabricate quotes? No. Did I quote out of context? No. I supplied context to typical godder quotes such as John 3:16 which is only a small part of the message.

You guys routinely quote the NT while ignoring the context of the OT. This is misrepresentation (lying)

There is a time to love and a time to hate. Your bible SAYS THIS. Jesus SAYS THIS. He SAYS if you dont hate everybody including yourself then you cant love him. See the above quotes.
You said Hitler was a Christian. You lied
I cited scholars and historians, as well as direct evidence, which proves this. You deny the evidence which means you are lying to YOURSELF.
You Have been caught misquoting many times, and on and on it goes.
Cite specific examples or else I shall have to cite you for bearing false witness. A deadly sin yes?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (15) Jan 13, 2013
Here

"25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." luke14

-Do you DENY that jesus said this? Can you provide some context which makes this mean the opposite? Is it possible that god contradicted himself? But he also said that he came with a sword to destroy families did he not?

You dont even read my links or watch the vids do you? DO YOU? This only demonstrates that you do in fact disregard those parts of your book that you dont like, correct?

Please explain.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (15) Jan 13, 2013
Otto, you are a liar.
-And you certainly cant show that I am a liar by posting some of the pleasant things jesus said. I say that BOTH are there. You are the one who chooses to ignore the evil, not me.

Jesus the liar

"If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it." John 14 (repeated many times)
-And how many people have died praying?

"Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save him that is sick, and the Lord shall raise him up..." james5

-And how many xian scientists have died praying?

"Gott mitt Uns" das Heer belt buckles

-And how many gute deutsche soldaten died believing god would protect and their fatherland?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (15) Jan 13, 2013
Here you go ft
http://www.youtub...a_player

-Since it is Sun-day you ought to WATCH this. I IMPLORE you. Watch all 3 parts. Most all is undisputed, even by biblical scholars. Jesus was not the only godman. Not by far.
freethinking
1.9 / 5 (17) Jan 13, 2013
Otto, now you say Christian Science religion is a Christian religion. Either your stupid or you are purposely lying. I don't believe you are stupid....

Otto, I do have to thank you for I have a question for Christians out there. Athiest, such as Otto live their lives as if there was no God. How would they, ie. Otto, change IF they became a Christin? I think most christians would agree they (he) most likely would change a lot. Now most christians say they believe in God; however if they were to become athiests, how much would they change? Sadly I would say many wouldn't change much, begging the question, how much do they really believe in God.

This question, I'm going to be using in a group of free thinking, non dogmatic Christians. Thanks again Otto for giving me this question.
RitchieGuy01
1.5 / 5 (8) Jan 14, 2013
You can interpret scripture any way you want. But what it SAYS is very clear. It says exactly what all the books say.

Why didnt xians discard the OT if all they needed was love? Because there is a TIME to love. History also tells us that xians spent a lot more time loving.

GhostofOtto

SEE THAT. That proves how much smarter my GhostofOtto is than all the rest of U retards. Y'all need to consider to stop commenting in Otto's physorg because y'all are just to retarded to give your dumbass opinions. My lover man GhostofOtto runs rings around all the rest of U. Otto, I sold my sorghum farm to my brother in Sicily and he will grow sorghum when he comes back to Florida. I did that so that U and I can be married. Same sex marriage is so right for us All the rest of U tards who keep on voting down my GhostofOtto and his sockpuppet FrankHerbert. . . .please stop doing it. Don't U understand yet that Otto then has to give himself all fives so he can get up to 5/5?
kissesxx for my Otto
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (14) Jan 14, 2013
Otto, now you say Christian Science religion is a Christian religion. Either your stupid or you are purposely lying. I don't believe you are stupid....
Well they meet all the criteria in your list. So do Mormons, Rastafarians and those people who sacrifice chickens in central park. You're prejudiced.
Otto, I do have to thank you for I have a question for Christians out there. Athiest
Antireligionist. The question of god is irrelevant. The damage that religions do is very relevant.
such as Otto live their lives as if there was no God. How would they, ie. Otto, change IF they became a Christin?
I would become instantly stupid I suppose. I believe in evidence no matter how it makes me feel ft and evidence tells us the god in your book doesn't exist.

You and most xians believe that how you feel is more important than evidence. What you WANT is more important than what IS. Surrendering to this addiction would make me very uncomfortable.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (14) Jan 14, 2013
This question, I'm going to be using in a group of free thinking, non dogmatic Christians.
And if you were honest you would ask them some of the questions I asked you. The ones you are afraid to answer. Why does Jesus want you to hate your family?

Why are the exploits of Joshua an integral part of your holy book of love? Why was hitler obviously a religionist? Why could he do exactly the same things as the grand inquisitor, using the exact same instructions from the exact same book?

Why does your god of love nevertheless condemn people who choose not to believe in him to eternal TORTURE and ABUSE? And why does he guarantee to grant wishes for people who do, an obvious LIE?

Try these out on your group.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (14) Jan 14, 2013
Hitler based on his actions and words didn't show love, he denied God and tried to undermine the Church, etc. He definitely was not a Christian.
Hitler expressed exactly the same kind of love for his chosen people as Joshua did for his. And, just like your little godman, hitler was willing to torture and burn all who were not members of his exclusive group. This is what he SAYS in John 3.

Jesus is love so I guess hitler was love of exactly the same sort.
freethinking
2.1 / 5 (18) Jan 14, 2013
I will rank anyone who uses TARD as 1.

Otto, you are a selfish hater, that is why you don't understand christianity.

The bible and all it's laws can be summed up as 1. Love God, 2. Love your neighbor.

Also the bible defines love, as everthing but a feeling.

So, you would not lay down your life for a neighbor or friend. In otherwords you feel you are more important than your friend. Since you have no god, you think you are the most important being around, ie. you are a god in your eyes.

As a christian, we are suppose to put God and love him above all else. We are suppose to love others more than ourselves.

You don't understand Christianity BECAUSE you are a hater. Hate has nothing to do, and cannot understand LOVE.
Modernmystic
2.7 / 5 (7) Jan 14, 2013
Otto, you are a selfish hater, that is why you don't understand christianity.


There are plenty of selfless human beings who love people who don't have the foggiest notion of what christianity is. So your logic isn't sound there.

The bible and all it's laws can be summed up as 1. Love God, 2. Love your neighbor.


Well that's what it says in some parts, but not all.

Also the bible defines love, as everthing but a feeling.


That might be another reason people don't understand christanity...

I know a lot of people who are in love with the IDEA of what they think christianity ought to be. But just like loving another person this just doesn't work out in the end. You finally have to see it for what it really is and the fruit it really bears.

freethinking
2.4 / 5 (19) Jan 14, 2013
MM I agree with you that a lot of people who are not christian are selfless. I would even agree that there are a lot of people who are not christian who are better than most christians.

Loving people is 1/2 of being a Christian. The other 1/2 is Loving God.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (14) Jan 14, 2013
Otto, you are a selfish hater, that is why you don't understand christianity. The bible and all it's laws can be summed up as 1. Love God, 2. Love your neighbor.
Like I say you ignore what it SAYS and what it has CAUSED people to do, and see only what you want to see. All you guys do. Islam is love too, dont you know that?

"By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, you will not enter Paradise unless you believe, and you will not believe unless you love each other. Should I direct you to something that if you constantly did it, you would love each other? Spread the greetings of peace among you."

-You ignore the evidence Ive given you. Why? Are you afraid of it? 'Well I dont understand it but I know that jesus is a love god.'
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (14) Jan 14, 2013
So, you would not lay down your life for a neighbor or friend. In otherwords you feel you are more important than your friend.
And in your eyes unbelievers are unworthy of friendship or sacrifice. Because whats the point? Jesus says in john 3 that they are evil and thus condemned. You can love (pity) them but you will not trust them nor do business with them nor let them marry your daughter.

This is how religions teach bigotry.

Morality is natural. We were selected for it.

"There can be no doubt that a tribe including many members who, from possessing in a high degree the spirit of patriotism, fidelity, obedience, courage, and sympathy, were always ready to give aid to each other and to sacrifice themselves for the common good, would be victorious over most other tribes; and this would be natural selection" Darwin

-Religion perverts innate altruism by denying it to its enemies.

The good samaritan wasnt even jewish but he was able to help out someone in need. Explain that.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (14) Jan 14, 2013
Per your own admission:
Otto, now you say Christian Science religion is a Christian religion. Either your stupid or you are purposely lying. I don't believe you are stupid....
And, like I say, you are a bigot.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (15) Jan 14, 2013
The stakes are simply too high... The prospect of eternal damnation is not worth even a glimpse at the evidence (temptation).

Evidence (science) tells us that your god never flooded the earth...

Never led any 2M jews out of goshen and through the sinai and palestine which were fully occupied by garrisoned egyptian soldiers at the time...

Never led joshua on a genocidal rampage as a pillar of fire or smoke...

Never destroyed jericho as it was abandoned at the time...

Never inspired david or his son to establish great kingdoms stretching from sinai to the euphrates...

Never calved a son who was only the umpteenth iteration of the sungod prototype...

EtcEtc

-So how could a god who us willing to lie about these things be the source of morality? Especially when he prefaces his list with the caveat that unless you believe in him and him alone, they will not work?

More very important questions you will never answer-
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (13) Jan 14, 2013
You know, it just occurred to me that you are just like all those german citizens who loved their little nazi savior so much, that they were able to ignore the EVIDENCE of all the horror occurring all around them. They were willing to accept the ruination of their country and the deaths of 11M of their countrymen because the FAITH they had in their Deliverer had made them BLIND.

Not to mention the the death and destruction they were willing to inflict on millions of unbelievers, on the FAITH that, according to their Messiah, this was necessary to establish heaven on earth.

Faith provides a Mechanism which is very effective in REMOVING morality from the collective will, yes? Nazis were selfless, self-sacrificing, fully willing to give their all 'Für Gott, Führer und Vaterland.' A very katholischen sentiment indeed.
http://www.amazon...66365171
kochevnik
3.3 / 5 (7) Jan 14, 2013
@freeOfThinking 1. Love God,
Which one?
@freeOfThinking 2. Love your neighbor.
Of course it is necessary to not rape the women (again) and slaughter the men of conquered cities. How else could Rome grow? That is the "love" to which Caesar referred
freethinking
2.1 / 5 (19) Jan 15, 2013
According to Otto and other Progressives, you are a bigot if you speak the truth. You are a hater if you speak the truth. You are stupid if you have faith in God rather than in the State (or just men).

According to Koch, Otto, and other progressives you care for people only if you degrade them, lie about people and groups.

The truth is: Hitler, Stalin, Moa, were progressives. They believed in State Control. They all hated the Christian Church, and tried to subvert it (unfortunately many times they succeeded), They placed themselves above God.

Now we have Obama, lets see if he follows in his hero's footsteps. #1 Subvert and threaten the churches. (done) #2 put hismself above the constitution. (done) #3 gun control (working on it....)
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (15) Jan 15, 2013
According to Otto and other Progressives, you are a bigot if you speak the truth. You are a hater if you speak the truth. You are stupid if you have faith in God...According to Koch, Otto, and other progressives you care for people only if you degrade them, lie about people and groups.
Well you choose to degrade people by calling them progressives.
The truth is: Hitler, Stalin, Moa, were progressives. They believed in State Control.
Sorry ft, but you merely saying these things doesnt make them so. The truth is based on evidence and not belief. We have given you overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Thats ok. Stay stupid. Millions of germans chose to remain stupid, an unfortunate pattern.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (15) Jan 15, 2013
They believed in State Control.
So did the grand inquisitor and henry VIII. And all the popes. Does this make them 'progressives' as well? Your word is useless except as a focus for your bigotry.
lie about people and groups
Give at least 1 example where we have misrepresented either your religion or the contents of its book. You have to justify what you say by producing evidence.

Speaking of stupid germans, ever hear of the 30 Years War?

"...it was fought largely as a religious war between Protestants and Catholics in the Holy Roman Empire...A major consequence...was the devastation of entire regions, denuded by the foraging armies. Famine and disease significantly decreased the population of the German states [by about 1/3]...extreme barbarity practised on all sides, usually at the expense of the civilian population. Many paintings depicting pillage, rape and the firing of villages..."

-Death to blasphemers. Implicit in john 3.
http://en.wikiped...dentrunk
kochevnik
3 / 5 (10) Jan 15, 2013
According to Otto and other Progressives, you are a bigot if you speak the truth.
No, you are an IDIOT for assuming there is one and only one truth/god
According to Koch, Otto, and other progressives you care for people only if you degrade them, lie about people and groups.
You degrade yourself. We only make it readily apparent
The truth is: Hitler, Stalin, Moa, were progressives. They believed in State Control.
That you conflate despots to be progressive reveals the sickness of your conservative brain
They placed themselves above God.
Anyone can do that, given your god is fond of hiding in the darkest shadows or edge of the universe. Even an electron is bolder than your god. Disneyland is taxed. How is your church meaningfully different?
#1 Subvert and threaten the churches. (done)
Good point those silly fairy-tale houses should be taxed like any business
Caliban
3.7 / 5 (9) Jan 15, 2013
According to Otto and other Progressives, you are a bigot if you speak the truth. You are a hater if you speak the truth. You are stupid if you have faith in God rather than in the State (or just men).

According to Koch, Otto, and other progressives you care for people only if you degrade them, lie about people and groups.


And I won't even be as nice as those mean-ass Progressive(crypto-socialists), Ghosty -O and Kochevnik, freithinkink:

You are a bigot because, you are a BIGOT.

You are a hater because, you are a HATER.

You are a stupid because, you are a STUPID.

To which I will add

You are a maroon because, you are a MAROON.

You PERSONALLY demonstrate and then reinforce the actual factuality of these truths with regard to yourself virtually every time you comment here.

Now, go rub yourself with sackcloth and ashes, and commence to wailin'n'gnashin' your teeth on account of the magnitude of your sins.

freethinking
1.9 / 5 (17) Jan 16, 2013
Otto, repeating a lie as you have, does not make it truth.
Otto, Koch and Caliban are Progressives, you are all for Big Government, Government control, pro Obama, why do you hate being labelled what you are.
If you want to tax churches, then you must also be for taxing Planned Parenthood, unions, and all non-profits. If not your a hypocrite.

Here is a song for you guys.... it's called God's Own Fool, enjoy.
http://www.youtub...jyvnEidY

Then if you want the way of wisdom: http://www.youtub...YMSP5clM
freethinking
1.9 / 5 (17) Jan 16, 2013
Otto, this one is appropriate for you as well:
http://www.youtub...UsQrJFVU
Caliban
2.7 / 5 (7) Jan 16, 2013
Otto, Koch and Caliban are Progressives, you are all for Big Government, Government control, pro Obama, why do you hate being labelled what you are.


Hey MAROON,

I'll happily accept the label of "Progressive", especially since it seems to provoke such delusional nincompoopery from you.

Delusional nincompoopery like equating "progressive" with:

"...Big Government, Government control, pro Obama..."


I don't hear you complaining about how those dirty socialist progressives just helped to prevent your income taxes from increasing.

Your "thinking" is not only delusional nincompoopery, it is completely one-dimensional.

Now piss off.

freethinking
1.8 / 5 (15) Jan 17, 2013
Caliban, love that you are such a great role model to Progressives. 1. You are cude, 2. you yell, 3. you think you are smarter than everyone else, and 4 you misdirect.

BTW, here are some pictures great progressives.

http://www.infowa...s-props/
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (13) Jan 17, 2013
Otto, repeating a lie as you have, does not make it truth.
WHAT LIE ft? Be specific or I cannot show you where you are in error. Again.
you are all
Yeah. Bigots say this a lot.

Your songs are cloying and vapid. It's funny how religionists use such sugar and spice to sell their superstitious nonsense. The TRUTH doesn't CARE how it makes you FEEL ft. What is real is real. What IS, IS.

We can write nice mooshy songs about reality as well. Sagan was pretty good at this.
freethinking
1.9 / 5 (17) Jan 17, 2013
Otto, the number of lies you have said are beyond counting. Go to the previous posts on this thread and you can count and read for yourself all the lies I have caught you in.
freethinking
1.9 / 5 (17) Jan 17, 2013
Sugar and spice songs: I don't think so...
http://www.youtub...OPGrTg-c

http://www.youtub...8OGTqiSw

http://www.youtub...VS1VIzHc

One thing the bible does do, is speak the truth about sorrow and mans conditions. Want more examples of songs.... or here Michael Card gives a leture on lamenting...

http://www.youtub...mNGtxd-I

Michael Card is someone I respect for he tells it the way it is.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (13) Jan 17, 2013
Ok let me pick one. Jesus says you need to hate your family and your own life in order to follow him. True or false?

Another - Germans were fighting to cleanse Lebensraum exactly like the joshuan hordes were their own promised land. True or false?

Another - Jesus shares multiple traits with a dozen or so sungodman figures from antiquity; so many in fact that it is virtually certain that he is a copy of this successful form factor. True or false?
Otto, this one is appropriate for you as well:
http://www.youtub...UsQrJFVU
We can choose to sing praises to the soulless majesty of a godless universe:
http://www.youtub...a_player

-These guys might seem nasty but they only want to burn empty churches, unlike Sunni religionists in cairo or Protestants in medieval Germany.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (13) Jan 17, 2013
Michael Card is someone I respect for he tells it the way it is.
-No, you like him because what he says makes you FEEL good. But he is selling biblical fantasy nonetheless.

You like sermons. Here is one from dr shlomo sand, historian. He cares more about the truth and less about how it makes people feel.
http://www.youtub...a_player
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (13) Jan 17, 2013
Massacre of the innocents. That's pretty obscene. And how is that any different than this

"This is what the Lord of  hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt.  Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban.  Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.'   (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

-Did your god not say these things? Are they right because he ordered them? Were the Mongols who did these same things right because their god ordered them as well?

One religionists atrocity is another religionists necessity. Ask hitler.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (13) Jan 17, 2013
God says,

" Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)"

-Of course this was only proper because if given the chance the enemy would have done the same to them. Because THEIR god told them to. That's how it works ft. Thaw what religion IS.
freethinking
2 / 5 (16) Jan 17, 2013
You and the devil sure can quote the bible. Problem is, you don't know what is in the bible. You misquote, take out of context, etc. etc.. I give you credit, you are not dumb, you are a great liar. I would put into context every thing you have spoken, but you don't care about context.

TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (11) Jan 17, 2013
You misquote, take out of context, etc. etc.
And who wants the bible to say what he wants it to more, you or I? Who has more to lose here ft, you or me?

I supply the context to your truncated quotes. John 3:16 is NOT COMPLETE without the part that deems all unbelievers as evil and condemned. They were obviously meant to work in conjunction.

And there is nothing equivocal about the samuel and ezekiel quotes. Your god demanded nothing less than genocide from his chosen people.

You may think the OT is about salvation through faith. But it is obviously about generating the commitment necessary for conquest. They could be butchers because their god demanded it. He absolved the israelites of all guilt for the murder and rapine required to cleanse the land in the east.

Just like hitler.
kochevnik
3 / 5 (6) Jan 17, 2013
@freethoughtless I give you credit, you are not dumb, you are a great liar.
Lying about fiction is just more fiction. The bible is musty and long overdue for a reboot
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (11) Jan 17, 2013
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

-And raped them. With kindness I suppose. And like their contemporary moslem counterparts, the girls were then obligated to marry their victimizers.

Please supply the context which makes this an admirable thing.

Please supply the context which says that gideon was honorable in killing all the men in peniel, who were fellow hebrews.

'Well, these things were uh necessary to cleanse the holy land of all heathens and uh, Untermenschen...' -says the distinctly un-nazi-like freidenken. 'Besides, god SAYS it was ok. Its in this book he wrote.'
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (10) Jan 17, 2013
More butchery

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

-This by the way was exactly the same strategy genghis khan used. Although he was heading west, not east.

Note the phrase '...that the LORD your God has given you.' God wasnt actually there (except in spirit ha) was he? He never is. The people must do all his work for him in purging unbelievers and taking spoils to feed their swelling numbers.

These gods serve as convenient scapegoats for any guilt or doubt. Hitler knew this full well.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (10) Jan 17, 2013
Himmler expressed similar sentiment for the rationale of the holocaust in his poznan speech;

"That was, thank God, a kind of tact natural to us...I am talking about the "Jewish evacuation": the extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things that is easily said.

"We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who wanted to kill us...

"But altogether we can say: We have carried out this most difficult task for the love of our people. And we have taken on no defect within us, in our soul, or in our character."
http://en.wikiped...1943.ogg

-We all know the context, repeated every few generations by good, god-fearing people just like you ft, who have the moral obligation to do it.

Note himmlers words; GOD, moral right, LOVE of our people, SOUL, character. You can find these same words throughout the OT to elicit the same result. Where himmler FOUND them.
freethinking
1.7 / 5 (17) Jan 17, 2013
Otto, yawn, a bigger yawn, now a sleepy yawn. Context. The devil you and every cult leader, including Hitler fail when it comes to context. Misquoting or purposely taking things out of context is what you do. Since you are smart enough to put things into context, yet you fail to do so, means you are a liar.
Caliban
2.3 / 5 (6) Jan 18, 2013
Caliban, love that you are such a great role model to Progressives. 1. You are cude, 2. you yell, 3. you think you are smarter than everyone else, and 4 you misdirect.

BTW, here are some pictures great progressives.

http://www.infowa...s-props/


I suppose -if I were such a MAROON as you, that would be the best I could provide in support, as well.

But I am capable of thought in more than just a single dimension.

and for this:

Caliban, love that you are such a great role model to Progressives. 1. You are cude, 2. you yell, 3. you think you are smarter than everyone else, and 4 you misdirect.


I thank you.

What a MAROON.

antialias_physorg
4 / 5 (4) Jan 18, 2013
Moron. The word is moron. (Maroon is a color)

But apart from that: carry on.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.2 / 5 (13) Jan 18, 2013
Moron. The word is moron. (Maroon is a color)

But apart from that: carry on.
Sorry again you fail at research.
http://www.youtub...h7nLplWo
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (12) Jan 18, 2013
Context. The devil you and every cult leader, including Hitler fail when it comes to context. Misquoting or purposely taking things out of context is what you do.
So where is your specific example of context? Again, your declaring that something is so does not make it so. Even jesus could not get away with this.

"If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. (John 15:7 NAB)"

-Which as science will tell you, happens just as much to believers as to unbelievers; but they correctly refer to it as 'luck'.

Jesus mentions creation, Moses and the exodus, and the flood (matt 36) as if these things happened. Archeology tells us these things didnt happen. If jesus were god he should have known better.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (4) Jan 18, 2013
@Caliban
Moron. The word is moron.

I just realize that this could be read as if I was calling you a moron. Just to clarify things: that was not my intent.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (14) Jan 18, 2013
devil...including Hitler
Let us imagine that gideon (which means "Destroyer," "Mighty warrior," or "Feller (of trees)")were alive and in a similar position of power today. He would be appalled at the state of the promised land, full of midianites and xians and blasphemers of all sorts.

He would again set out to complete the work that the israelites had been commanded to do, by GOD, but had failed to complete. He would proceed to do ethnic cleansing, at LEAST, as described in judges. And he would be waging holy war against israels neighbors to reclaim judea and samaria, and extend israels borders from the euphrates to sinai, As it is written.

And as he would now have the NT for reference he would have his gideonjugend informing on any moms or dads who lacked the proper enthusiasm.

"35 For I have come to turn
'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law..."

-For as we know the OT and the NT are complimentary.
freethinking
1.5 / 5 (15) Jan 18, 2013
Otto, yawn. I explained the context of the verses. Maybe I was giving you too much credit. You may not be a liar after all, but a really dumb person.

Caliban, you are safe. I will not judge you or anyone on spelling, something about casting the first stone would apply if I did :)
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.2 / 5 (13) Jan 18, 2013
No you didnt. Your context consists of your desire for jesus to be all peace and love. This is what your preachers preach and your sappy songwriters sing. However the context of history, and of what the bible actually says, and of what it has always caused people to do, is the proper context.

Jesus led the way for millions of martyrs to die for a non-existent god. Joshua led the way for millions of soldiers and ethnic cleansers to kill with impunity.

This is the context you choose to ignore. In this context, jesus proclaiming that 'the golden rule is the whole of the law', is a lie. Like promising to grant wishes or raise corpses from the dead.

He does absolve guilt however, by making the most abject sins against his detractors honorable and necessary.

"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matt 5:18
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.2 / 5 (13) Jan 18, 2013
something about casting the first stone would apply if I did :)
Did you know that this story was "certainly not part of the original text of St John's Gospel."

-Like much of the unalterable word of god, this was a later alteration. Hundreds of years later.
Caliban
3.3 / 5 (7) Jan 18, 2013

Caliban, you are safe. I will not judge you or anyone on spelling, something about casting the first stone would apply if I did :)


Spare me.

There was no spelling error. MAROON was used in exactly the context that GhostyO cited for your edjumacation.

Fanks for digging up the vid, Ghosty!

freethinking
1.7 / 5 (17) Jan 21, 2013
Otto, Cast the first stone IS accepted as cannon for many reasons. The reasons many people don't like the passage is because: 1. grace is shown to a woman, 2. judgement against the sin of adultery (ie. go sin no more, 3. shows no person is above the law, 4. every person is guilty of sin deserving death.

I'm starting to think your lack of knowledge is real and you really are not a liar, but just ignorant. So I ask you, are you just ignorant or a liar?
FrankHerbert
2.3 / 5 (9) Jan 21, 2013
Hitler opposed secular schools.
freethinking
1.5 / 5 (15) Jan 21, 2013
James 3: 13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness

Otto, wisdom from God you do not have.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (12) Jan 21, 2013
The knowledge of his own creation, god did not have;

'And the hare, because he chews the cud but does not divide the hoof; he is unclean to you.'...Rabbits dont have cuds.

-Hundreds of examples.

"The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?"

An untainted knowledge of history, ft does not have;

"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable faith, that he [Hitler] was sent to us by God to save Germany."

--Hermann Goering (A typical sentiment)
Modernmystic
3.7 / 5 (9) Jan 21, 2013
Wouldn't a truly forgiving, grace filled, and infinity loving god forgive everyone for everything? Why is the only sin he won't forgive failing to believe in him when he's never around? Why wouldn't that kind of behavior in fact be rewarded?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.2 / 5 (13) Jan 21, 2013
1CO 1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow."

"3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'

"6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened..."

-They ate of a tree which gave them wisdom, and your god punished them for it. Plus, they did not die as he had warned them.

Your god is a god of darkness and lies. It HATES knowledge because the more we know about it, the less we can believe in it. Because we come to accept the fact that it is not REAL.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.2 / 5 (13) Jan 21, 2013
Otto, Cast the first stone IS accepted as cannon for many reasons. The reasons many people don't like the passage is because: 1. grace is shown to a woman, 2. judgement against the sin of adultery (ie. go sin no more, 3. shows no person is above the law, 4. every person is guilty of sin deserving death.
You seem to be forgetting the FACT that, like the last 11 verses of Mark, it is an ADULTERATION added hundreds of years after the supposedly complete and unalterable book, was finished.

IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT IT SAYS. Your book, and all holy books, were written by people, not by non-existent gods.

"[Bart] Ehrman attempts to show that from the time of the Church Fathers it was those denounced as heretics (Marcion, for example) who were charged with tampering with the biblical manuscripts. Ehrman theorizes that it was actually more often the orthodox that corrupted the manuscripts, altering the text to promote particular viewpoints."
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (12) Jan 21, 2013
Bart Ehrman on biblical untruth
http://www.youtub...93PSZ6fQ

-11 books in the NT are forged. How can we trust what authors say when they lie about who they are?

http://www.prweb....9892.htm
freethinking
1.6 / 5 (14) Jan 25, 2013
Otto, you keep bringing up people who have been debunked. Now go back to watching Ancient Aliens.

Now if you would do your own research on cude you wouldn't be so lazy. But what can you expect from a progressive. Very simple

Rabbits chewing cud... Answer: http://www.answer...-the-cud

freethinking
1.6 / 5 (14) Jan 25, 2013
Now you are saying Adam and Eve didn't die. Wow....

Also, the lie was You would become Like God....

What is the progressive lie.... everyone is there own god.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (9) Jan 25, 2013
Rabbits chewing cud... Answer: http://www.answer...-the-cud

Wow ft it took you long enough to find a creationist website which prevaricated its way out of this obvious mistake. But alas, reason tells us that the people who made SO many mistakes when writing your book, had made yet one more.

"It would seem that the authors of Leviticus observed the rabbits' jaw movements and mistook this as evidence of cud-chewing. Not very reliable evidence on which to make a scientific pronouncement."
http://www.noansw..._cud.htm
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.5 / 5 (8) Jan 25, 2013
Now you are saying Adam and Eve didn't die. Wow....

Also, the lie was You would become Like God....

What is the progressive lie.... everyone is there own god.
This is incoherent. I didnt say adam and eve didnt die. I and pat robertson both say that they never existed because evolution is a gradual process.