Astronomers discover galaxies near cosmic dawn (Update)

Dec 12, 2012
The Hubble Ultra Deep Field 2012 campaign explored the deepest reaches of the universe that has ever been studied with Hubble. Credit: NASA/ESA/Caltech-R.Ellis/HUDF12 Team

(Phys.org)—A team of astronomers led by the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) has used NASA's Hubble Space Telescope to discover seven of the most primitive and distant galaxies ever seen.

One of the galaxies, the astronomers say, might be the all-time record holder—the galaxy as observed existed when the universe was merely 380 million years old. All of the newly discovered galaxies formed more than 13 billion years ago, when the universe was just about 4 percent of its present age, a period astronomers call the "cosmic dawn," when the first galaxies were born. The universe is now 13.7 billion years old.

The new observations span a period between 350 million and 600 million years after the Big Bang and represent the first reliable census of galaxies at such an early time in cosmic history, the team says. The astronomers found that the number of galaxies steadily increased as time went on, supporting the idea that the first galaxies didn't form in a sudden burst but gradually assembled their stars.

Because it takes light billions of years to travel such vast distances, astronomical images show how the universe looked during the period, billions of years ago, when that light first embarked on its journey. The farther away astronomers peer into space, the further back in time they are looking.

In the new study, which was recently accepted for publication in the Astrophysical Journal Letters, the team has explored the deepest reaches of the cosmos—and therefore the most distant past—that has ever been studied with Hubble.

This timeline shows the evolution of the universe since the Big Bang. The new observations, labeled "Hubble 2012," explored the deepest reaches of the cosmos that has ever been studied with Hubble, going back about 13.4 billion years -- around when the first galaxies were being formed. Previously, the universe was in the so-called Dark Ages, before there were any stars to light up the cosmos. During reionization, ultraviolet light from the newly formed stars and galaxies ionized the neutral hydrogen that permeated the universe. The dashed line labeled Hubble 2009 represents the last set of observations of HUDF. Credit: NASA/ESA

"We've made the longest exposure that Hubble has ever taken, capturing some of the faintest and most distant galaxies," says Richard Ellis, the Steele Family Professor of Astronomy at Caltech and the first author of the paper. "The added depth and our carefully designed observing strategy have been the key features of our campaign to reliably probe this early period of cosmic history."

The results are the first from a new Hubble survey that focused on a small patch of sky known as the Hubble Ultra Deep Field (HUDF), which was first studied nine years ago. The astronomers used Hubble's Wide Field Camera 3 (WFC3) to observe the HUDF in near-infrared light over a period of six weeks during August and September 2012.

To determine the distances to these galaxies, the team measured their colors using four filters that allow Hubble to capture near-infrared light at specific wavelengths. "We employed a filter that has not been used in deep imaging before, and undertook much deeper exposures in some filters than in earlier work, in order to convincingly reject the possibility that some of our galaxies might be foreground objects," says team member James Dunlop of the Institute for Astronomy at the University of Edinburgh.

The carefully chosen filters allowed the astronomers to measure the light that was absorbed by neutral hydrogen, which filled the universe beginning about 400,000 years after the Big Bang. Stars and galaxies started to form roughly 200 million years after the Big Bang. As they did, they bathed the cosmos with ultraviolet light, which ionized the neutral hydrogen by stripping an electron from each hydrogen atom. This so-called "epoch of reionization" lasted until the universe was about a billion years old.

The colored squares in the main image outline the locations of the newly discovered galaxies. Enlarged views of each galaxy are shown in the black-and-white images. Each galaxy is labeled with the redshift (z), which measures how much a galaxy's ultraviolet and visible light has been stretched to infrared wavelengths by the universe's expansion. The galaxy observed at a redshift of 11.9 may be the distance-record breaker, seen as it appeared 380 million years after the Big Bang. Credit: NASA/ESA/Caltech-R.Ellis/HUDF12 Team

If everything in the universe were stationary, astronomers would see that only a specific wavelength of light was absorbed by neutral hydrogen. But the universe is expanding, and this stretches the wavelengths of light coming from galaxies. The amount that the light is stretched—called the redshift—depends on distance: the farther away a galaxy is, the greater the redshift.

As a result of this cosmic expansion, astronomers observe that the absorption of light by neutral hydrogen occurs at longer wavelengths for more distant galaxies. The filters enabled the researchers to determine at which wavelength the light was absorbed; this revealed the distance to the galaxy—and therefore the period in cosmic history when it is being formed. Using this technique to penetrate further and further back in time, the team found a steadily decreasing number of galaxies.

"Our data confirms that reionization is a drawn-out process occurring over several hundred million years with galaxies slowly building up their stars and chemical elements," says coauthor Brant Robertson of the University of Arizona in Tucson. "There wasn't a single dramatic moment when galaxies formed; it's a gradual process."

The new observations—which pushed Hubble to its technical limits—hint at what is to come with next-generation infrared space telescopes, the researchers say. To probe even further back in time to see ever more primitive galaxies, astronomers will need to observe in wavelengths longer than those that can be detected by Hubble. That's because cosmic expansion has stretched the light from the most distant galaxies so much that they glow predominantly in the infrared. The upcoming James Webb Space Telescope, slated for launch in a few years, will target those galaxies.

"Although we may have reached back as far as Hubble will see, Hubble has, in a sense, set the stage for Webb," says team member Anton Koekemoer of the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore. "Our work indicates there is a rich field of even earlier galaxies that Webb will be able to study."

Explore further: Fermi finds a 'transformer' pulsar

More information: The title of the Astrophysical Journal Letters paper is, "The Abundance of Star-Forming Galaxies in the Redshift Range 8.5 to 12: New Results from the 2012 Hubble Ultra Deep Field Campaign." (PDF)

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Q-Star
3.6 / 5 (26) Dec 12, 2012
This one is sure to bring them out of the woodwork.
ritwik
1 / 5 (3) Dec 12, 2012
the more you look the clearer you see & older it gets :)

btw is there a name for this galaxy ?

geokstr
3.3 / 5 (31) Dec 12, 2012
Well, somebody has to be wrong here:

http://phys.org/n...ars.html
Tuxford
3.1 / 5 (20) Dec 12, 2012
"Our work indicates there is a rich field of even earlier galaxies that Webb will be able to study."

A rich field likely indeed.
GSwift7
3.8 / 5 (29) Dec 12, 2012
The upcoming James Webb Space Telescope, slated for launch in a few years, will target those galaxies


If it works I'll be so happy I might pee a little.

jk.

JWST is going to cause a revolution in so many fields of study if it works. It's just so darn mechanically complicated that it seems difficult to imagine everything working as planned. Every mission has unexpected challenges. Just hope JWST isn't one of the missions that has something they can't work around.
eachus
4.7 / 5 (12) Dec 12, 2012
Well, somebody has to be wrong here:

http://phys.org/n...ars.html


Any error involved is in writing the article, not its content. That article says we found a galaxy that 750 million years ABB (after Big Bang) was a primitive galaxy with no old stars. This article says that reionization (the formation of the first galaxies) took place from about 350 to 750 million years ABB.

The left to right time chart gives an idea of what is going on, but don't forget that for a galaxy to be visible from Earth, reionization has to have occurred along the whole path from the galaxy to Earth. As a result many of the first galaxies may not be visible at all even with infrared telescopes like the JWST. We may need to depend on radio telescopes to find the most primitive galaxies. (The problem there is the neutral hydrogen cuts off high frequencies near the galaxies, so you have to look at very low frequency.)
casualjoe
5 / 5 (8) Dec 12, 2012
The upcoming James Webb Space Telescope, slated for launch in a few years, will target those galaxies


If it works I'll be so happy I might pee a little.


My sentiments exactly. Such a great, awe inspiring effort.
baudrunner
2.8 / 5 (20) Dec 12, 2012
I hope that nobody thinks that there is nothing to see beyond 300 million years farther out, because all we are seeing here is creation 300 million years away from the creation front whose light was emitted from there 13 billion years ago, which means of course that there is at least another 13 billion plus another 300 million years, oh fudge.. we'll just never get to see that at all, come to think of it. And it just keeps going, and going, and going...
Argiod
2.3 / 5 (26) Dec 12, 2012
What I want to know about this so-called 'Big Bang' is where did it originate? That is, how far are we from the center of where it went 'bang'?
First we thought Earth was the center of the universe; then the Solar System; then the Milky Way...
So, where are we in relation to the origin point from which this 'Big Bang' occurred?
And how do they figure this?
NOM
3.5 / 5 (13) Dec 12, 2012
So, where are we in relation to the origin point from which this 'Big Bang' occurred?
Right in the middle. So is the distant galaxy that is the subject of the article.
Q-Star
3.2 / 5 (18) Dec 12, 2012

btw is there a name for this galaxy ?



UDFj-30546284, catchy name, eh?
Urgelt
4.5 / 5 (16) Dec 12, 2012
Argiod, *everything* is the origin point. The whole damn universe.

The theory is that spacetime itself was a point, and has since expanded. Therefore every point in contemporary spacetime once was at the center of the Big Bang. No point in spacetime is more qualified to be the center than any other point.

Weird, eh? But that's the theory we're working with, and there's a lot of evidence supporting it.
yash17
1.5 / 5 (22) Dec 12, 2012
"Well, somebody has to be wrong here:"

"http://phys.org/n...ars.html"

Well, as long as we still grasp the "Big Bang theory", we will never stop facing controversies. We will get those forever! It's all because, the Universe structure is actually "Cloud and rain model!".
PosterusNeticus
3.7 / 5 (12) Dec 13, 2012
JWST is going to cause a revolution in so many fields of study if it works. It's just so darn mechanically complicated that it seems difficult to imagine everything working as planned.


Have you seen how Curiosity landed? I have every confidence in JWST and NASA's ability to make it happen.
Tuxford
2.4 / 5 (29) Dec 13, 2012
So is phys.org reporting heavily biased toward supporting the Big Bang Fantasy??? Is phys.org the Fox News of science propaganda? Why was there no mention of the author's conclusion that we were still viewing high populations of at least 2nd generation stars at this extreme distance?

"They've already got a reasonable amount of heavy elements from previous generations of stars...

Even when we push to less than what is now 5% of the age of the Universe; we're still seeing second-generation, relatively evolved objects."

http://www.bbc.co...20695327

Torbjorn_Larsson_OM
5 / 5 (6) Dec 13, 2012
"The theory is that spacetime itself was a point, and has since expanded. Therefore every point in contemporary spacetime once was at the center of the Big Bang."

That is a neat description of the pre-standard big bang cosmology, and if carefully laid out is true for the current inflationary standard cosmology as well: _the observable universe_ was contained within a Planck volume of spacetime before inflation.

In inflation, the simplest topology is a tree level (naive) description of different vacuums (universes) and so the topology becomes flat. (Or at least the simplest topology.) Therefore the inflationary multiverse is infinite, and likely a larger volume of spacetime ended inflation at the same time as the volume we can see.

Another technical difference is that now the corresponding "Big Bang" can be identified with the first spacetime that contained observable particles and so an identifiable temperature, some time after inflation reheated the vacuum.
Torbjorn_Larsson_OM
5 / 5 (7) Dec 13, 2012
[cont] The temperature of that volume is much less than the earlier Planck temperature estimate, which fits the old cosmology with the new.

The result is that the need for an initial singularity disappears. It is, I believe, unknown if the current cosmology has such singularities (outside of finite time black holes) or even a need for an initial condition at all. It may just be because it can.

@ Tuxford: A science site is biased to present the current science, and in cosmology the standard cosmology is the only remaining theory that pass the test against observation.

SC is also self-consistent, so the risk that it will or even can change is minimal.

The field has moved on to study what happened before big bang respectively if the universe is eternal. (According to Standard Model of particles it doesn't look that way, the current standard Higgs field gives a quasistable vacuum @ 2 sigma, see numerous arxiv articles by the LHC theorists. Need more LHC data...)
that_guy
3.3 / 5 (18) Dec 13, 2012
So is phys.org reporting heavily biased toward supporting the Big Bang Fantasy??? Is phys.org the Fox News of science propaganda? Why was there no mention of the author's conclusion that we were still viewing high populations of at least 2nd generation stars at this extreme distance?

"They've already got a reasonable amount of heavy elements from previous generations of stars...

Even when we push to less than what is now 5% of the age of the Universe; we're still seeing second-generation, relatively evolved objects."

http://www.bbc.co...20695327


Why are you here? On a science site that is biased towards science. When scientific consensus changes, then the content of the articles will change. Go figure.

If you wanted to read pseudo science, then go to an appropriate pseudo-science site.
Tuxford
2.4 / 5 (30) Dec 13, 2012
@guy
That's why the Republicans lost the election. They believed their own self-delusional internal-poll propaganda. Don't like reality? Prefer self-delusion? Vote Republican. They hate inconvenient facts too!
yyz
4.3 / 5 (11) Dec 13, 2012
"If you wanted to read pseudo science, then go to an appropriate pseudo-science site."

You mean like the authoritative Orion Nebula Sphinx Statgate site by astro-psychic Paul LaViolette: http://www.etheric.com/

In addition to deciphering alien pulsar transmissions warning of "superwaves", now LaViolette is apparently taking his science cues from remote viewing adherents who employ "...the practice of seeking impressions about a distant or unseen target using paranormal means...": http://starburstf...g/?p=267

Will he next team up with Nancy Lieder to glean info from the folks from Zeta Retiucli?

"Don't like reality? Prefer self-delusion?"

By all means, read Paul Laviolette for his New Age alien doomsday woo. If he believed in electric stars and renounced his "pulsars are neutron stars" views, EU/PC nutters would be all over him.

TheGhostofOtto1923
2.4 / 5 (31) Dec 13, 2012
distant or unseen target using paranormal means...": http://starburstf...g/?p=267
"Possible Arrival of a Galactic Superwave within the Coming Months?"

-Oh no not this guy again-
http://www.youtub...9xdbKDeQ
yash17
1 / 5 (13) Dec 13, 2012
"The field has moved on to study what happened before big bang respectively if the universe is eternal. (According to Standard Model of particles it doesn't look that way, the current standard Higgs field gives a quasistable vacuum @ 2 sigma, see numerous arxiv articles by the LHC theorists. Need more LHC data...)"

There was no one "Big Bang event" far in the very past(13.7 billion years ago?????). There is eternal Big Bang event at center of the Universe( located around behind Ursa Major and Leo constellation).
Tuxford
2.9 / 5 (21) Dec 14, 2012
Oh, the dogs are barking again. Must have wandered too close to home, or perhaps bumped into a Republican funny bone....
GSwift7
3.4 / 5 (18) Dec 14, 2012
It is, I believe, unknown if the current cosmology has such singularities (outside of finite time black holes) or even a need for an initial condition at all


Isn't it ironic that so much could depend on the exact value of such a small thing as the Plank number, and that even a tiny variation in its exact value can have such a profound implication on the nature of Everything?

To go from a century ago, when people first started to theorize about the possibility of such things, to today, when we are building and using the machines capable of exposing Nature's secrets, in little more than a lifetime. What an amazing time we live in. The most basic fundamental properties of the Universe may now be just within reach of our fingertips.

And people still talk about aether.... facepalm
Q-Star
2.5 / 5 (13) Dec 14, 2012
To go from a century ago, when people first started to theorize about the possibility of such things, to today, when we are building and using the machines capable of exposing Nature's secrets, in little more than a lifetime. What an amazing time we live in. The most basic fundamental properties of the Universe may now be just within reach of our fingertips.


The times we live must be the most wondrous. And exciting. To paraphrase Newton, we stand on the shoulders of giants. The only thing better than to live when we do, would be to see what we learn in the few hundreds of years.

But then, maybe I should count my blessings,,, my shortcomings are most noticeable in the fields of evolutionary biology, sociology and civilization. Perhaps our species won't be around or doing much science in the future. Naaa, I'll stick to loving this age we live in.
HeloMenelo
2.3 / 5 (25) Dec 15, 2012
"In addition to deciphering alien pulsar transmissions warning of "superwaves", now LaViolette is apparently taking his science cues from remote viewing adherents who employ "...the practice of seeking impressions about a distant or unseen target using paranormal means...": http://starburstf...g/?p=267"

I'm not a biased person, i beleive in science and the unknown, meaning things that exist without us being able to observe it within our limited reality.

Police Detectives have been using Psychic Detectives
for decades to solve crimes which could otherwise never have been solved, so there is living proof that it works.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (35) Dec 15, 2012
so there is living proof that it works
Science debunks bullshit once again:

"Psychic Sleuths—still perhaps the only truly skeptical, book-length treatment of the subject—demonstrated that claims of psychic crime-solving repeatedly failed scrutiny. A major ploy the claimants used was a technique called "retrofitting" (or after-the-fact matching). For example, the psychic offers several vague "clues"—such as "I see water; I'm getting the number 7; and so on"—which are invariably of little use to police. However, after the facts become known, the psychic attempts to fit them to the earlier offerings."

"A number of scientific tests have been conducted on psychics detectives, using control groups, to try to establish any psychic ability relating to crime solving. One of the earliest was carried out by Dutch Police officer, Fillipus Brink in 1960. He conducted a one year long study of psychics and their abilities, but found no evidence of any abilities."

-Yay.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.4 / 5 (34) Dec 15, 2012
I'm not a biased person, i beleive in science and the unknown
-Then like any scientist you should do a little research before posting such crap on a science website.
HeloMenelo
2.5 / 5 (24) Dec 15, 2012
"Science debunks bullshit once again"
No lol, it by a long shot doesn't prove it does not exist, those "psychic techniques mentioned and in the "so called test" are used by amateur "psychics" that often fail. Scientists cannot the true abilities of real psychics because they are limited by what they can physically do.

There are numerous crimes, way too many to mention that used Psychic Detectives that visualize the crime committed, they see the actual surroundings, and evidence such as knowing beforehand how the crime was committed, the trail that was followed which match up perfectly with the end result.
HeloMenelo
2.4 / 5 (25) Dec 15, 2012
"Then like any scientist you should do a little research before posting such crap on a science website."

You should start to realize that not everything in existence can be explained by physical scientific testing.
Q-Star
3 / 5 (14) Dec 15, 2012
You should start to realize that not everything in existence can be explained by physical scientific testing.


Maybe you should start to realize that if it can't "be explained by physical scientific testing" it shouldn't be included in a discussion of scientific observations.

Wouldn't you think if it's pretty silly to think that someone discussing observational astronomy to think that extra-sensory-misconception is in anyway germane to the discussion?
Tuxford
2.6 / 5 (22) Dec 15, 2012
We need to be on guard about forthcoming celebratory news confirming early galaxy composition in support of the Huge Bang Fantasy. At these extreme distances, likely we will first detect only the cores of the largest very old galaxies, which themselves will have populations of younger stars biased toward the central core, such as in Andromeda. Thus, initial observations will likely show lower metallicity.

http://phys.org/n...ars.html

http://phys.org/n...axy.html

The relief bias will continue in the face of contradictory evidence, such as big early structures, and lots of carbon.

http://phys.org/n...ung.html

http://phys.org/n...rse.html

I understand...it is hard to let go of life-long fantasies. I like Disneyland too! Texas secession!

HeloMenelo
2.4 / 5 (25) Dec 15, 2012
Q-star

All i'm saying is that some scientists are only open to single minded possibilities, they strongly believe in their methods and honestly i don't blame them, that's how they coach and were coached from a young age, i too would be mad if someone tells me my methods is not capable of solving everything.

Rather than being biased and unkind about it and trying to physically disprove something that clearly has been proven to work
(by proof i mean without those abilities, the crimes would've not been solved)

Just admit that there are things out there that is not understood and cannot be explained or physically proved, simple as that, not

simply it does not exist because it has been used with success like mentioned.

Officers of the law have even testified on Video that they could not have solved a crime without a pshycic.
Q-Star
3.2 / 5 (18) Dec 15, 2012
Rather than being biased and unkind about it and trying to physically disprove something that clearly has been proven to work


It has not been "proven". Not using the scientific method. Scientists do science. Why would you have them do stuff that is outside of science?

(by proof i mean without those abilities, the crimes would've not been solved)


That is not proof. It may seem like proof, but it does qualify as proof in science.

Just admit that there are things out there that is not understood and cannot be explained or physically proved, simple as that,


That is the silliest thing ya say there. That's why we do science, things are unexplained. If everything was was explained there would be no need to do science.

Officers of the law have even testified on Video that they could not have solved a crime without a pshycic.


Policemen are not scientists. Video interviews are drama, not science.

You found your way into the wrong forum.
HeloMenelo
2.2 / 5 (23) Dec 15, 2012
(by proof i mean without those abilities, the crimes would've not been solved)

"That is not proof. It may seem like proof, but it does qualify as proof in science."

The Psychic describes the evidence/scenario and leads detectives to the victim the case gets solved, now if psychic ability was not used according to the officers, the case would not have been solved.

"Just admit that there are things out there that is not understood and cannot be explained or physically proved, simple as that,"

"That is the silliest thing ya say there. That's why we do science, things are unexplained. If everything was was explained there would be no need to do science."

I agree with you that science is used to test things, yet science cannot explain psychic ability moreover they try and disprove it and here we are having psychics solving cases.

I like this forum and love reading the science on this site, i'm just pointing out that not everything can be explained or physically proven.
Q-Star
3.4 / 5 (17) Dec 15, 2012
I like this forum and love reading the science on this site, i'm just pointing out that not everything can be explained or physically proven.


Read the science then, if you want to "point out" things that aren't science, maybe you should go to a UFO site. Or a paranormal site. Find a site devoted to the "Art Bell School of Metaphysical Gobbledygook".

Would you go to a site devoted Ming Dynasty pottery to discuss Irish fiddle tunes? (Maybe you would, and maybe you would lament the lack of interest in reels, jigs and polkas in all those people who only want to talk about vases urns.)

Thrasymachus
3.8 / 5 (10) Dec 15, 2012
Helo, you clearly don't have any idea how science works. You don't start with an assumption that your model, in this case, psychic ability, is true, and then go looking for evidence of it. You start with the observation of a pattern, build a model to explain that pattern, then use that model to predict a new pattern and check to see whether that new pattern occurs or not. In the case of psychic ability, you don't even have evidence that there's a pattern that requires explanation. Once all the ad-hoc crap psychic "investigators" do to make their guesses look better after the fact is thrown out, they do no better than guessing.

I dispute the notion that you like reading the science on this site. Rather, I think you like reading about some of the things scientists talk about, but don't understand and in fact despise the science itself. Only someone who despises science would suggest that a physical observation could lack a physical explanation.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (35) Dec 15, 2012
No lol, it by a long shot doesn't prove it does not exist, those "psychic techniques mentioned and in the "so called test" are used by amateur "psychics" that often fail. Scientists cannot the true abilities of real psychics because they are limited by what they can physically do.
Ah. And you're privy to the 'real stuff' which doesn't get included in studies and statistical analyses because 1) it never works when unbelievers are watching or 2) you guys don't like being laughed at. Right?
The Psychic describes the evidence/scenario and leads detectives to the victim the case gets solved, now if psychic ability was not used according to the officers, the case would not have been solved.
This is called heresay. You guys have had decades and many many chances to present your case, provide your own evidence, and participate in unbiased studies, and have ALWAYS come up empty. Always. If not we would certainly have heard of it by now.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (37) Dec 15, 2012
There are numerous crimes, way too many to mention...match up perfectly with the end result.
-More HERESAY (bullshit).

" and another Psychic who had a media profile and had been endorsed by police due to his abilities). The two groups were shown three objects associated with three serious crimes. They then advocated theories, but once again, no difference was found in terms of the accuracy between the two groups."

"Radford agreed to investigate in depth a case from any period in history, around the world, "that presented the gold standard for evidence". Tsakiris chose psychic Nancy Weber...Radford discovered that the detectives had not kept their notes from the case and their story had changed since the TV show aired, in fact he found that their stories now contradicted the psychic's story....the police could have discovered the killer with a 15 minute search through the phone book. Radford concludes that the police and the psychic "simply fell prey to... confirmation bias"."
HeloMenelo
2.5 / 5 (22) Dec 16, 2012
"Ah. And you're privy to the 'real stuff' which doesn't get included in studies and statistical analyses because 1) it never works when unbelievers are watching or 2) you guys don't like being laughed at. Right?"

No i'm not privy to it, the abilities, that true psychics have cannot be included in scientific studies because it cannot be physically tested.
However crimes get solved by psychic detectives all the time so it does exist. I'm sorry No one can laugh at a person who solve crimes.
HeloMenelo
2.5 / 5 (22) Dec 16, 2012
"This is called heresay."....

Just because You cannot observe it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Regarding Radfords investigation,
I am not surprised, the case you present is 1 of 100s of poor examples and there are many for every 100 psychics there are only 2-4 real psychics.

And i'm sorry to describe the crime as it happened can definitely not be a random guess:

"There are numerous crimes, way too many to mention...match up perfectly with the end result.
-More HERESAY (bullshit)."

"Place:Staunton, Virginia 1979
Case:rape of five elderly women
Psychic: Noreen Renier
Evidence produced: identified where the rapist lived, how he did his crimes, how he entered the rooms, that he limped, that he wore a uniform and that he had a scar near his knee. Predicted accurately that he would be caught before Christmas. With that information, the police caught the rapist."

HeloMenelo
2.5 / 5 (22) Dec 16, 2012
Police Comments:

Police Deputy Ronnie Whisman The department was impressed by the psychic on the important information she was able to give us … everything she said about the case came true."

I can post 100s of similar cases.

HeloMenelo
2.5 / 5 (21) Dec 16, 2012
Det. Joseph Uribe of Montana Dept. of Justice stated that the account given by gifted psychic Noreen Renier was "accurate in every detail".
HeloMenelo
2.5 / 5 (22) Dec 16, 2012
Cheming County Sheriff's department, Elmira, New York
Case: Rose Swartwood
Psycic Phil Jordan

"He told them there were two suspects – he could see them: one Afro-American, one Caucasian. One had tattoo on his arm, the tattoo had a female name on it. He eventually was able to accurately identify the two suspects from a number of photographs."

Police Comments:

"Lt Mike Mucci stated that the psychic was "one hundred per cent correct with the information given"
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (35) Dec 16, 2012
No i'm not privy to it, the abilities, that true psychics have cannot be included in scientific studies because it cannot be physically tested.
Sure it can. And just saying it can't is dishonest.
Just because You cannot observe it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
But you claim it can be observed. If it has an effect in the real world it can be tested scientifically. And it has been, repeatedly, and has always failed.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (35) Dec 16, 2012
Police Comments:
Your source:
http://www.victor...ves.html

-I'm sorry but you can't present anecdotal, HERESAY evidence that has not been corroborated scientifically, as evidence for ESP. Especially given the poor track record. Even the good lawyer mr zammit will tell you this.

Science and people like randi have repeatedly shown that experienced, conscientious, responsible people are can nevertheless be fooled. My source gives you many examples.

Whenever psy powers have been tested scientifically they have always failed. Are they shy? Do they not trust the goodness and wisdom of objective observervation? Are they afraid to show their similarity to luck and blind chance, and trickery and slight of hand?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (35) Dec 16, 2012
Noreen Renier
"Noreen Renier: TV's unsolved crime and missing person police psychic detective has horrendous news problems. As 2012 closes she's racked up five losses in four different federal courts all ordering judgments against her since 2006. She's not credible in or out of a court room. Noreen Renier has also been cited by witnesses and critics in faking major events and falsifying hundreds of direct police hiring's. It's now clear Noreen Renier has misrepresented her credentials, deceived the public, and been cited as misleading and not credible by a federal judge.

"In fact six out of six U.S. federal court judges from 2005 to April 2012 have ruled against 75-year old Noreen Renier --- the author of A Mind For Murder and The Practical Psychic. Noreen Jean Renier is an actress promoting paranormal shams."

-Six federal judges. Was the good mr zammit esq present for any of those rulings? Why did he not see fit to mention them on his website?

Why didn't you mention them?
Q-Star
3 / 5 (16) Dec 16, 2012
No i'm not privy to it, the abilities, that true psychics have cannot be included in scientific studies because it cannot be physically tested.
However crimes get solved by psychic detectives all the time so it does exist. I'm sorry No one can laugh at a person who solve crimes.


What possible connection is there between Astronomers/galaxies/cosmic dawn and soothsayers?

Maybe the connection is that all/most of those soothsayers also seem to think that even though their soothsaying is unscientific they can find solace in the oh-so-deep "science" of astrology.
HeloMenelo
2.5 / 5 (22) Dec 16, 2012
"Sure it can. And just saying it can't is dishonest."

No, saying it does not solve crimes is dishonest.

"But you claim it can be observed. If it has an effect in the real world it can be tested scientifically. And it has been, repeatedly, and has always failed."

Of course It's ability to solve crime cases can be observed, we have hundreds of solved cases.

Indeed It has repeatedly been successful

"Your source....."

"conscientious, responsible people are can nevertheless be fooled."

Your source only proves that there are many amateur psychics out there,

Police detectives solve crime cases via psychics via detailed information they receive from real psychics.

"Noreen Renier: TV's unsolved crime and missing ......"

Like anything in life, even science, you have your successes and you have your failures, not everyone succeeds everytime.
I believe in the hundreds of cases that have been solved and the 100s of officers that have testified
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (33) Dec 16, 2012
Phil Jordan - recipient, 1977 Pigasaurus award;

"Psychic Phil Jordan was called in by police on a multiple child-murder case. In what police dubbed "Operation ESP," Jordan was taken to the various abduction sites and provided with evidence and photos to "psychometrize" (obtain psychic feelings about). Later five senior investigators reviewed his pronouncements, finding them not only vague but even contradictory and fundamentally useless. An interoffice memorandum concluded that such psychic claims "simply cloud the facts and cause an investigator undue feelings of failure." (Lyons and Truzzi 1991, pp. 226-27.)"

" Jordan was appointed an officer of the court in New York, though his "psychic" powers don't appear to have aided his ability to select juries. On page 10, it is revealed that he was used by the defence in two cases. Both trials resulted in murder convictions!"

-etc. Yeah I know like Christian Science it doesn't always work. Must be a doubter in the crowd.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (33) Dec 16, 2012
I beleive in the hundreds of cases that have been solved and the 100s of officers that have testified
Of course you do. This is called faith which is defined as belief DESPITE evidence. But evidence is overwhelming. PSY is a sham.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (34) Dec 16, 2012
"Denenberg's team enlisted a fifteen-year-old schoolgirl named Kate. Although she was safely at home (for example playing softball in her front yard), the psychics were told that she had been missing since January. Some psychics "saw" her experiencing physical harm; one collected a fee of $50 for reporting her "confined against her will"; and another charged $180 to divine that the girl had run away and was "probably pregnant." While one psychic envisioned her just two miles from home, another saw her far away in Florida. Not one among the several seers ever divined the truth, that the teenager was not missing and that Channel 10 was conducting a sting operation."

-More amateurs? Perhaps they were cherry-picked. Perhaps you need a professional organization dedicated to verifying psychic ability and chaired by objective 3rd parties. I predict (with no psy powers whatsoever) that membership would be thin-
HeloMenelo
2.6 / 5 (23) Dec 16, 2012
"Of course you do. This is called faith which is defined as belief DESPITE evidence. But evidence is overwhelming. PSY is a sham."

You can try and throw in faith and belief as much as you like, it does not disprove the fact that police departments around the world could not have solved crime cases without the detailed and specific information given by psychics.
HeloMenelo
2.4 / 5 (20) Dec 16, 2012
"-More amateurs? "

Indeed, there are 100s of amateurs trying to make a quick buck.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (34) Dec 16, 2012
You can try and throw in faith and belief as much as you like
You used the word believe.
it does not disprove the fact that police departments around the world could not have solved crime cases without the detailed and specific information given by psychics.
-So provide at least one scientifically-verified example. This should be easy to do as you claim that there are hundreds of examples.
Q-Star
3.1 / 5 (17) Dec 16, 2012
it does not disprove the fact that police departments around the world could not have solved crime cases without the detailed and specific information given by psychics.


How does "the fact" and "without" mean anything more than "in spite of"?

The police solve more crime without (in spite of) soothsayers than they do with soothsayers.

The statistical right verses wrong record of the soothsayers shows only that are subject to same happenstance as a roulette wheel.

If I showed only the episodes in which the number bettor won without considering the episodes where the bettor lost, I could prove the truth to you that the bettor has some great predictive ability in the game of roulette.

It's called sophistry, not logic or proof.
HeloMenelo
2.5 / 5 (22) Dec 16, 2012
"So provide at least one scientifically-verified example. This should be easy to do as you claim that there are hundreds of examples."

You won't get that kind of proof, however the accurate information given by them solves crimes, that is fact.

q-star i somewhat agree with you and there are many frauds out there, however all the successful outcomes guessing almost everything and in such detail as it turned out to be would be impossible.
Q-Star
2.5 / 5 (13) Dec 16, 2012
q-star i somewhat agree with you and there are many frauds out there, however all the successful outcomes guessing almost everything and in such detail as it turned out to be would be impossible.


No, I posit that if I guessed enough, it would not impossible for me to have a success,,,, it would be far from impossible, it would be probable if I guessed enough.

But this still begs the question: In what way does any of this have to do with science in general (since you say it is outside of the scientific method), what does it have to do with astronomy in particular, and galaxies/cosmic dawn in detail?

Is it covered by trolling principle?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.2 / 5 (30) Dec 16, 2012
You won't get that kind of proof
I have instead counterproof.
however the accurate information given by them solves crimes, that is fact.
It's not factual and it's not accurate. I have directed you to sources which confirm this. You have only reasserted your 'belief' after your own sources were discredited. Which means you lose.
Widdekind
1.4 / 5 (10) Dec 16, 2012
The scientists seemingly observed distant star-bursting proto-galaxies, whose intense star formation generated bright UV emissions. From "there" to "here", neutral hydrogen along the LOS absorbed some of the light, presumably imprinting a "Lyman-alpha forest" of absorption features, into the observed galaxy spectrum, similar to such features seen, in distant Quasar spectra. According to the .PDF article, the ultra-distant galaxies (z~(12-8)) are all about a half arc-second across on the sky. For a flat, matter-only cosmology, objects of such apparent size, at such redshifts, would have been about one to one-and-a-half Kpc across. Such distant proto-galaxies are observable, due to ionization of foreground, intervening, space gas.
dav_daddy
1.9 / 5 (14) Dec 16, 2012
The only time I'm aware of where remote viewing has given an unequivocally correct answer to an unknown question was that case in the 50's or 60's where the CIA used them to find out what was in some Russian structure that they only had pictures of the outside.

One guy told them what was inside and even drew a very accurate picture. (It was a new Typhoon class ballistic middle submarine.)

That being said while it appears there may be something to it, it is not nearly accurate often enough to be of any scientific value what-so-ever.
Telekinetic
2.6 / 5 (36) Dec 16, 2012
It's no surprise that TheGhostofOtto1923 dismisses psychic phenomena out-of-hand because his life consists of shuffling to the mailbox in his bathrobe and slippers to collect his government disability check. You don't need a remote viewer to see his pathetic collection of Nazi memorabilia (which he paid way too much for) collecting dust. He considers anything outside of his realm of understanding or experience impossible, even though today's physics reveal far more astounding revelations than psychic phenomena. Also, because he's a shut-in, he's unaware of the years of experiments at Duke University and University of Arizona that have produced and documented evidence of human psychic ability. Despite his constant carping against religion, you can hear him cry, "Mein Gott, why have you made my life a living hell?"
HeloMenelo
2.6 / 5 (22) Dec 17, 2012
aah i see :)
Fleetfoot
4.6 / 5 (10) Dec 17, 2012
I can post 100s of similar cases.


You probably can, but you can't post evidence for how many predictions failed because they don't make the news, so you can't compare the success rate with random luck.

When the scientific method is applied and properly conducted double-blind tests are done, the whole topic is shown to be completely baseless.
Telekinetic
2.7 / 5 (38) Dec 17, 2012
Once again, Freakshow, you exhibit absolute stupidity when the information you need to see is only a touch of a button away. It's called Google. "Duke University- parapsychology experiments", or "University of Arizona- mediumship" - unless of course(not), you can trump their credentials with something greater.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (33) Dec 17, 2012
pathetic collection of Nazi memorabilia
Arf?

Per GOOGLE

"Many scientists regard the discipline as pseudoscience, saying that parapsychologists continue investigation despite not having demonstrated conclusive evidence of psychic abilities in more than a century of research."

"the claims are disputed since the interpretation of the aggregate data is unclear; additionally, early Ganzfeld experiments were found to be affected by serious methodological errors."

Remote viewing
"Several hundred such trials have been conducted by investigators over the past 25 years, including those by the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory... Many of these were under contract by the U.S. government as part of the espionage program Stargate Project, which terminated in 1995 having failed, in the government's eyes, to document any practical intelligence value...physicist Robert L. Park said of PEAR, "It's been an embarrassment to science, and I think an embarrassment for Princeton"."
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.4 / 5 (34) Dec 17, 2012
That was easy. But wait - there's more!

" In 1988, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences published a report..."no scientific justification from research conducted over a period of 130 years for the existence of parapsychological phenomena.""

"A 2008 study tested participants repeatedly for 90 minutes in a magnetic resonance imaging environment and showed no detectable psi effect..."

"The Soal–Goldney experiments of 1941–1943...were long regarded as some of the best in the field because they relied upon independent checking and witnesses to prevent fraud. However, many years later, statistical evidence...suggested that Dr. Soal had cheated by altering some of the raw data."

"In 1979...Randi engineered a hoax...Project Alpha. Randi recruited two young magicians and sent them undercover to Washington University's McDonnell Laboratory...both of his recruits deceived experimenters over a period of 3 years..."

-As I'm sure you know there is TONS of this stuff on the INTERNET.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.4 / 5 (33) Dec 17, 2012
the years of experiments at Duke University and University of Arizona that have produced and documented evidence of human psychic ability.
Duke hasn't been involved since 1965:

"With the deaths of McDougall in 1938 and Few in 1940, support began to weaken. Although Rhine tried at least from the early 1940s to have a special Institute for Parapsychology established at Duke, he was never successful...The decision to leave Duke was part of the reason for J. G. Pratt's resignation from the staff in 1963. Rhine continued to hope that the Laboratory would eventually be re-affiliated with the University..."

"In 1965, J.B. Rhine retired from Duke University and formed the independent research center"

-in part because;

"subjects were simply cheating. Illusionist Milbourne Christopher wrote years later that he felt "there are at least a dozen ways a subject who wished to cheat under the conditions Rhine described could deceive..."."

-And nothing appreciable was ever accomplished.
Fleetfoot
4.3 / 5 (6) Dec 17, 2012
Once again, Freakshow, you exhibit absolute stupidity when the information you need to see is only a touch of a button away. It's called Google. "Duke University- parapsychology experiments",


There's a nice history of what was done over many decades but no mention of any successful double-blind tests or similar.

or "University of Arizona- mediumship"


Done that, tried to follow the link "Schwartz GE. 2003. How Not To Review Mediumship Research: Understanding the Ultimate Reviewer's Mistake.". See what you get.

unless of course(not), you can trump their credentials with something greater.


What credentials? It appears the universities threw out their pseudo-science.
Telekinetic
2.6 / 5 (34) Dec 17, 2012
I know James Randi and he's the biggest fraud of all. And when you cherry pick from Google to disprove a contentious subject like ESP, you can just as easily find the same amount of references attesting to its veracity. Though Upton Sinclair was not a scientist in the formal sense, he was a world renowned author who investigated ESP and was successful in his experiments with it. More recently, Dr. Gary Schwartz, a professor at the University of Arizona, conducted rigorously controlled experiments that proved mediumship is real. Because you have absolutely no (zero) experience with or haven't done any research on the the subjects of paranormal phenomena or parapsychology , you only mock yourselves by declaring it false. That's not science, that's superstition.
Telekinetic
2.6 / 5 (36) Dec 17, 2012
Here's Dr. Gary Schwartz's website. Do remember that he is not some carnival sideshow palm reader. He's conducted experiments for years at a major University.

http://www.drgary...ONS.html
FrankHerbert
2.5 / 5 (16) Dec 17, 2012
I know James Randi and he's the biggest fraud of all.

Go away.
Telekinetic
3.1 / 5 (28) Dec 17, 2012
I know James Randi and he's the biggest fraud of all.

Go away.

Why? What do you know about him and why would you assume that he, an entertainer, has the capacity to act as a scientific investigator? I was the videographer at one of his debunking events, so f-ck yourself.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.4 / 5 (29) Dec 17, 2012
Here's Dr. Gary Schwartz's website. Do remember that he is not some carnival sideshow palm reader. He's conducted experiments for years at a major University.

http://www.drgary...ONS.html
Try again dog.
http://forum.mind...man.html
Telekinetic
3.1 / 5 (30) Dec 17, 2012
Ms. Macy claimed that she had interviewed other individuals who had been approached by Dr. Schwartz for research funding in an unethical manner. What the Geraldo segment did not mention is that (1) Ms. Macy had previously contributed to the spreading of a false rumor concerning fund raising related to Dr. Schwartz and the Forever Family Foundation, and that (2) after being confronted with the facts, she had written a formal letter of apology to Dr. Schwartz for her being part of spreading the false rumor."- from the website you just cited, assh-le."
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.4 / 5 (29) Dec 17, 2012
- from the website you just cited, assh-le
Here now, thats uncalled for. You did not research the subject thoroughly...

"Ray Hyman (from the Eugene Skeptic toolbox) had us as participants read and discuss Schwartz's submitted papers. We found tons of flaws not just in his writing but in the research itself. I never heard that Schwartz was claiming to be a psychic himself, but just searching for a "white crow" in the psychic community.

"Guess he figured that he could fake it just as easily as his psychics could. I don't understand what the 3.3 million was supposed to be used for? Was he asking for the money to start a business on the other side for this man's son? How isn't this illegal? Lots of questions, hopefully this hits the media big time and something happens."

-which could be just idle chatter I guess...
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.4 / 5 (29) Dec 17, 2012
But then theres all this;

"Schwartz's methods have prompted criticism by skeptics such as University of Oregon professor Ray Hyman, who says they deviate from the accepted norms of scientific methodology, and criticizes Schwartz for research errors such as inappropriate statistical tests and using subjects predisposed to believe in psychic abilities. Skeptic Robert Todd Carroll maintains that Schwartz's evaluation of mediums is subjective and a product of wishful thinking. When skeptic James Randi asked the University of Arizona to submit Schwartz's research data to an independent panel for evaluation as part of his $1 Million Challenge, Schwartz declined because he believed the panel, which was picked by Randi, would be biased. Schwartz has also been accused by psychic Laurie Campbell and Allison DuBois of exploiting their publicity value."

-Does not sound very scientific now does it dog?
Telekinetic
3.2 / 5 (31) Dec 17, 2012
"We found tons of flaws..." Who's we? A bunch of uneducated addlepated bumpkins like yourself trying to appear knowledgeable? You have not once in your life been involved in any kind of research or serious investigation of anything. How do I know that? Because you let Wikipedia, Google, and the testimony of others who have their own agendas and axes to grind do it for you. In fact, it's safe to say that you've wasted your life being duped by half-wits. Look it up on Wiki sometime.
Telekinetic
3.3 / 5 (29) Dec 17, 2012
I will also state that when you go behind the scenes in any arena, the most dishonest party is often the accuser.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.4 / 5 (29) Dec 17, 2012
Who's we? A bunch of uneducated addlepated bumpkins like yourself trying to appear knowledgeable?
No apparently it is a quote from a team assembled by University of Oregon professor Ray Hyman, as indicated.
You have not once in your life been involved in any kind of research or serious investigation of anything. How do I know that? Because you let Wikipedia, Google, and the testimony of others who have their own agendas and axes to grind do it for you.
What I have or have not done is irrelevant to the discussion little Pudel. I present respected, easily corroborated sources. You present invective.
In fact, it's safe to say that you've wasted your life being duped by half-wits.
Well sadly you appear to be a half-wit and I havent as yet been duped by you.
I will also state that when you go behind the scenes in any arena, the most dishonest party is often the accuser.
-Because you tend to spout nonsense like this. PSY has been investigated and disproved.
Telekinetic
3.1 / 5 (32) Dec 17, 2012
You would be laughed off the face of the earth by truly educated people, based on your disbelief and dismissal of psychology. Not one educator or PhD would consider you to be anything but an idiot. And your stance on consciousness- they wouldn't even give you the time of day. They would be hustling as quickly as they could to get away from you out of fear that you're some kind of aberrant psychotic. And they would be right.
FrankHerbert
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 17, 2012
based on your disbelief and dismissal of psychology. Not one educator or PhD would consider you to be anything but an idiot.


Why so many sock puppets, Noumenon?
Noumenon
3 / 5 (32) Dec 17, 2012
based on your disbelief and dismissal of psychology. Not one educator or PhD would consider you to be anything but an idiot.


Why so many sock puppets, Noumenon?


You're delusional. I only have this screen name, and one other which you know about, Erscheinung. That's it. You have been completely clueless for some time now.
Telekinetic
3.2 / 5 (29) Dec 17, 2012
Telekinetic Sep 04, 2012 Rank: 3 / 5 (4)
"Indeed, not all men are created equal,"- Noumenon 1 hr. ago

You don't even realize how stupid you are. Should I feel pity for you? Naah.- Telekinetic

Well, Ghost- you were wrong on that one. Or maybe Noumenon is as schizophrenic as you and publicly argues with himself.
ValeriaT
1.7 / 5 (12) Dec 17, 2012
reionization is a drawn-out process occurring over several hundred million years with galaxies slowly building up their stars and chemical elements
IMO we cannot expect the creation of galaxy and stars "slowly" just during several hundred million years just with accretion. It would be gigantic fireball requiring huge inflow of matter and outflow of radiation, which would keep this matter at distance. Because we don't observe any evidence of such condensation of matter, I don't think, that the Big Bang theory is the realistic model there.
new observations—which pushed Hubble to its technical limits—hint at what is to come with next-generation infrared space telescopes
I think we will see an infinite landscape of many galaxies of age well extending the 13.7 GYrs limit - after all, as some recent observations of infrared telescopes indicate.
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (33) Dec 17, 2012
Yes, I, urr, "we" sure did put on a good show in this thread. It almost appeared as though we disagreed,... all an illusion to confuse FH/lite.
Estevan57
2.7 / 5 (51) Dec 17, 2012
Hmmmm Noum, the votes on your discussion are as skewed as the ones on this one: http://phys.org/n...ace.html

Is there an (un)common denominater? Otto's typical up and down rating is from 12 to 19 votes.

He is the troll of Physorg. Living under the bridge of the comments section.

I believe HE is a pathetic Nazi memorabilia. He votes for himself because it can be done with one hand under the keyboard.

Estevan57
2.8 / 5 (49) Dec 18, 2012
Otto still has no opinion but hate, which dispenses regularly.

His lack of education betrays him daily.

His crutches are Google and Wikipedia.

What a sad little dwarf, walking his pudel to the mailbox to get his check. His sad and perpetually angry face distorted in the moonlight, muttering "I'll get that Estevan, I swear to my savior Jesus I'll get him".

"I'll even make my whole profile page about him".
mutter mutter mutter
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (27) Dec 18, 2012
Hello lying dog
Otto still has no opinion but hate, which dispenses regularly.

His lack of education betrays him daily.

His crutches are Google and Wikipedia.

What a sad little dwarf, walking his pudel to the mailbox to get his check. His sad and perpetually angry face distorted in the moonlight, muttering "I'll get that Estevan, I swear to my savior Jesus I'll get him".

"I'll even make my whole profile page about him".
And does this make you feel like you actually matter to the world? Please do check my profile page for a reminder of the kind of person you are. Pudels have fleas, ottos got esai.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (27) Dec 18, 2012
You would be laughed off the face of the earth by truly educated people, based on your disbelief and dismissal of psychology.
Uh you do mean para-psychology don't you. Do you confuse the 2? Please reread all the valid statements from educators and researchers in my comments above, all valid, all referenced, most as listed in WIKI. such as:

" In 1988, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences published a report..."no scientific justification from research conducted over a period of 130 years for the existence of parapsychological phenomena.""

-and against that you reference a program which used Duke office space and which died 50 years ago because it was a failure??

"It's been an embarrassment to science, and I think an embarrassment for Princeton".

-Let us celebrate WIKI for making info like this easy to find.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (27) Dec 18, 2012
And your stance on consciousness- they wouldn't even give you the time of day.
-Except for minsky who I am sure has a very dependable wristwatch. And all who support his point of view. Check WIKI.
rubberman
2 / 5 (12) Dec 18, 2012
ESP...neat concept. An unknown energy that manifests through human experience in non linear time at random locations, and to be able to harness and interperate the messages contained in this energy using only your body. I usually dont chime in on these unverifiable flights of fancy...but then again pheromones are also "invisible" and we all experience their influence. Not to mention, how many people can walk into a room full of silent people and pick out the one who's not quite right in the head based on a "vibe"? However, these examples are based on intuition and actual chemical processes, not a sensing of "negative energy" or malicious intent. The day there is incontivertible evidence that someone can do it on command, I'll believe it. Until that time, sorry PT Barnum described this situation so well....
Fleetfoot
5 / 5 (5) Dec 18, 2012
.. when you cherry pick from Google to disprove a contentious subject like ESP, ..


I didn't "cherry pick", I put the exact phrases you posted into Google as you suggested and told you the result. Perhaps you should have tested your suggestion before posting.

Dr. Gary Schwartz, a professor at the University of Arizona, conducted rigorously controlled experiments that proved mediumship is real.


The criteria for science are straightforward, (1) the experiments need to be free from bias, usually double blind is adequate but perhaps in this case Schwartz himself should be only an observer, (2) the experiment must be repeatable (so do it twice at least) and (3) the result should exclude the null hypothesis by at least 5 sigma in both cases.

Those are the criteria being applied to the search for the Higgs and it is now at around 7 sigma, any claim for ESP must meet the same burden of proof. Credentials and reputation count for nothing, just show the experimental results.