The fight among low-wage workers for a living wage and the implications of Michigan's new right-to-work law

Dec 19, 2012 by Andrea Alexander
Protesters outside Walmart in Secaucus on Black Friday. Credit: Jeffrey Perlman

Hundreds of fast food workers recently took to the streets in New York City to protest low wages that leave many earning below the federal poverty level. The demonstrations come on the heels of a wave of worker protests at Walmart, which were the largest the retailer had ever seen. Organizers said demonstrations were held at 1,000 Walmart stores in 46 states to protest low pay, poor benefits and the company's general treatment of its workers. Janice Fine, a professor at the School of Management and Labor Relations, says the recent protests mark a shift toward organizing low-wage workers who previously had not been part of the traditional labor movement. She also weighs in on the right-to-work law recently adopted in Michigan, calling it part of a strategy to weaken the Democratic Party by going after the institutions that support it.

Rutgers Today: What are the issues workers are facing that have led to the recent wave of

Fine: Jobs that are being created are low-wage jobs and people can't live on them. Everyone talks about the where earlier generations used their hard work and muscle to be able to work their way into the . The problem today is, given low , the absence of benefits, and the growth of contingent and part-time employment, the ladder into the middle class is missing some important rungs.

It is a dire situation.There are all these workers who don't have access to traditional institutions such as unions that once helped people move into the middle class. Between the 1950s and 1980s, there was a golden era when standards of living kept rising along with productivity. Because workers were in labor unions, they were able to ensure that some of the surplus went into the form of higher wages, benefits and pensions. The market has no intrinsic morality, so it is up to the institutions that represent workers to provide vehicles through which they are able to band together and press for a higher standard of living.

Rutgers Today: Is the movement to mobilize low-wage workers new or is there a reason these efforts are gaining more attention?

Fine: I think the Occupy movement reinvigorated a discussion in the United States about economic inequality. There were organizations that were actively working on these issues. Some were unions; some were community-organizing groups; and some were coalitions of faith communities. Worker centers, community-based worker organizing projects that engage in a combination of service, organizing and advocacy, have also emerged. So you've got the energy of Occupy, which is an emergent movement, uniting with institutions that have been on the ground patiently working. And there is the recession, the fact that these are really hard times. It is the coming together of those things. 

Rutgers Today: How did we get to the point that the is no longer a living wage? 

Fine: Since President Reagan was in office, we have raised the minimum wage only three times. Reagan opposed the minimum wage and he knew he couldn't get rid of it, so instead of abolishing it he didn't raise it for all those years he was in office. The minimum wage was created as part of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 because there was a recognition that for the United States to recover from the depression there had to be some standard that no worker should fall below. In order for it to be a minimum wage, it had to keep pace with inflation. What Reagan did was decouple the minimum wage from the cost of living. Now we have a situation where the minimum wage isn't the minimum wage. It ceased to be a tool of progress a long time ago, and it's laughable that we still call it the minimum wage. 

Rutgers Today: What are some of the obstacles for workers who want to organize? 

Fine: It was always difficult to organize unions because of employer opposition, but it was easier when you had a large number of workers working for a single employer in one confined space – think auto or steel. In the service sector it is common to have a whole bunch of medium and small employers, many working for subcontractors and scattered work sites. The hardest thing about organizing in the service sector is that these labor markets are overwhelmingly non-union. If you organize one employer at a time, they will not be able to compete so you have to organize across many firms at the same time in a labor market in order to bring wages and conditions up.

The other issue is immigration status. The silent compact between employers and employees is simple: In exchange for corporate indifference to their legal status, workers would not make a fuss about conditions or compensation. America's immigration policy – one that simultaneously made it harder for workers to come legally while casting a blind eye on employer hiring and management practices – became, until quite recently, one of her central de facto labor market policies. 

Millions of workers, many of them people of color and immigrants, are laboring on the very lowest rungs of labor markets with few opportunities for upward mobility in jobs characterized by long hours, low wages, high rates of injury and sweeping violations of workplace laws. 

Rutgers Today: What about the vote that was just held in Michigan to pass a right-to-work law? 

Fine: I agree with President Obama that the law should really be called the "Right to Work for Less. . ." Those who have championed the recent spate of anti-union laws at the state level are following a long-term strategy of systematically trying to move public policies in state legislatures that will weaken the institutionally. I think it is sad because the right to form unions and the right to engage in collective bargaining are fundamental democratic rights – and elected officials once upon a time agreed that American workers and all are better off when they have these rights.

Explore further: Highly connected CEOs more likely to broker mergers and acquisitions that harm firms

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PeterD
1.9 / 5 (14) Dec 19, 2012
I started my first business when I was 8 years old, and have been self employed ever since. I have always told my employes that if anyone mentions union, I would fire them all, and close the business. I could be open again in hours with a new corporate name, and new employes.
kochevnik
1.9 / 5 (8) Dec 19, 2012
"If you organize one employer at a time, they will not be able to compete so you have to organize across many firms at the same time in a labor market in order to bring wages and conditions up."

That will not happen. USA is going the other way with NAFTA and the TPP. Warrantless spying will ensure the government collects data on behalf of employers to root out resistance and eliminate it.
Q-Star
3.2 / 5 (9) Dec 20, 2012
I started my first business when I was 8 years old, and have been self employed ever since. I have always told my employes that if anyone mentions union, I would fire them all, and close the business. I could be open again in hours with a new corporate name, and new employes.


How is that an adult with with a 180 IQ sounds so much like an 8 year old child? (BillD, your reputation precedes you.)
Doug_Huffman
3.4 / 5 (15) Dec 20, 2012
McJobs only bridge to the next welfare check.

There will always be, and always has been, the impoverished, now with worthless-educational degrees normally distributed among them. McJobs should require advanced post-graduate degrees to drive the failure home.
FrankHerbert
2.6 / 5 (10) Dec 20, 2012
McJobs only bridge to the next welfare check. There will always be, and always has been, the impoverished, now with worthless-educational degrees normally distributed among them. McJobs should require advanced post-graduate degrees to drive the failure home.


Conservatives are pretty evil, aren't they?
VendicarD
5 / 5 (5) Dec 20, 2012
While it is true that American Capitalism has destroyed the American family, and American society, and enslaved the American worker into a work environment of ever decreasing returns and ever increasing hours, it is not true that unions are traditional in America.

The Union movement in the U.S. grew out of the worker slavery of the 1920's, 30's and 40's.

The war economy and the undamaged U.S. manufacturing sector during and after WW2 instilled in U.S. capitalism the idea's that were things like freedom and liberty that were greater than money.

While modern corporations pay lip services to such ideas, and lie to themselves that profit = liberty, they have forgotten the lessons of WW2 and the depression.

The coming revolution will remind them.

"There are all these workers who don't have access to traditional institutions such as unions that once helped people move into the middle class." - Fine

Here is a photograph showing what is to become of these capitalists CONT...
VendicarD
1 / 5 (1) Dec 20, 2012
CONT... in the not so distant future...

https://docs.goog...xVklTZWc
Noumenon
2.3 / 5 (23) Dec 20, 2012
If you are unwilling to compete and work hard to advance yourself, you deserve nothing better than minimum wage (which I would abolish). Unions, while once useful, are entirely out dated. The above interviewer was lobbing softballs.

Unions don't want you to have a free choice in joining them. What happened to pro-choice, liberal dingbats? They know that workers would rather not pay dues and would rather negotiate their own pay based on performance,... otherwise why be against such free choice?

Unions are parasitic,,... as are anyone who demands a pay rate without offering like value in return. Unions are anti-worker competition. Unions are a means of hiding incompetence and promoting mediocrity. The mentality that is reliant upon unions or minimum wage increase, is one that is not naturally worthy to join the middle class.

You could quadruple the minimum wage, and everything would balance out anyway, because its about value, and some will always be below middle class.
VendicarD
4.1 / 5 (9) Dec 20, 2012
Yes. This is what the slave masters continue to say but as Americans have continued to work harder, and longer hours, becoming ever more deeply the slaves of the Capitalist, their real wages - paid to them by the slave owerers have declined.

At one time only the adult male of a family was a slave and his wife and children free of slavery.

Corporations now enslave not only the husband but the wife as well, and often the children.

"If you are unwilling to compete and work hard to advance yourself, you deserve nothing better than minimum wage" - NoumenTard

Yes. Americans used to say the same thing about blacks.

Then came the Revolution.
VendicarD
4.4 / 5 (7) Dec 20, 2012
"because its about value" - NumenTard

Or is it about tradition, privilege, and pedigree?

You should ask Bernie Madoff what he thinks about that question.

VendicarD
5 / 5 (5) Dec 20, 2012
What do you call corporations who offer pay rates that are not in line with the value provided to them by their workers?

"Unions are parasitic,,... as are anyone who demands a pay rate without offering like value in return." - NumenTard

Walmart could of course open it's doors without staff, and try to make a profit.

I doubt if they would have much success.

In fact, I strongly suspect that they would lose billions due to theft.

So the value provided by the employees equals all profits made plus the value of the stock, and even the value of the buildings, for without the employees, Walmart would not exist.

VendicarD
5 / 5 (5) Dec 20, 2012
"Unions don't want you to have a free choice in joining them." - NumenTard

Unions have their place in restraining corporate greed, and upholding worker rights. They can also be destructive to a corporation.

Smart management cooperate with it's union.
Smart unions cooperate with their management.
Noumenon
2.4 / 5 (23) Dec 20, 2012
If a worker is not satisfied with his earnings and he can not convince his employer that it is in their best interest to pay him more, it is most likely that he has not demonstrated comparable value. If a company benefits by employing a particular worker at a particular pay, it is in their best interest to do so.

Such a worker can seek employment elsewhere, by offering his value in the labour market, or start his own business. This makes him a free man, not a slave. He is free to improve himself in order to make himself more valuable in the labour market.

A slave is one who arranges his affairs so that he is dependent on an institution like a union or gov, and is not self sufficient and independent. That is a slave.

An employee has zero claim to assets nor profit, nor any ownership nor decision making, unless agreed upon by the employer. He is free to buy stock if available.

It's perplexing that liberals reject such natural processes and forces that is implicate in capitalism.
VendicarD
4.2 / 5 (5) Dec 20, 2012
Then your fear is irrational.

"If a worker is not satisfied with his earnings and he can not convince his employer that it is in their best interest to pay him more, it is most likely that he has not demonstrated comparable value." - NumenTard

"Such a worker can seek employment elsewhere, by offering his value in the labour market, or start his own business." - NumenTard

Or can organize with other workers who have the same feelings and withhold their labor from that employer until some acceptable accommodation is made with the company.

Those companies who refuse to pay living wages to their employees that are large enough for the employee to maintain their health and welfare, are parasites on society, as they have externalized a portion of the cost of maintaining their workforce onto that society.

Unionization and minimum wage laws are two ways that this problem of corporate parasitism can be solved.

VendicarD
5 / 5 (3) Dec 20, 2012

"A slave is one who arranges his affairs so that he is dependent on an institution like a union or gov, and is not self sufficient and independent." - NumenTard

A corporation that pays less than a living wage has created a workforce that can not maintain itself on the wages provided, and thus is guilty of slavery, and parasitism on that society.

"An employee has zero claim to assets nor profit, nor any ownership nor decision making, unless agreed upon by the employer." - NumenTard

But the employee does have the right to organize with other employees and to withhold their services in a strike action against that employee in order to induce the employer to improve working conditions, wages, etc. that the employer would otherwise not do.

The principle reason employees unionize is to force Employers to improve working conditions and pay.

Not all employees seek to unionize.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (22) Dec 20, 2012
You just don't get it. It is impossible that everyone be in the middle class in a free society with freedom and competition. If does not make mathematical or logical sense.

Let's be ridiculous, I can make my point; Raise the minimum wage to $1,000,000 per year. Great, now everyone is a millionaire, and all is wonderful. But no, you quickly find the same "problems" because now since you are paying the guy who sweeps the floor such an amount, you have devalued the dollar,.. and Intrinsic Value again seeks its natural place, like a natural flow of water.

You see, it is not about pay amounts, its all about intrinsic value. Someone who only sweeps the floor has little intrinsic value to offer.

Ultimately it is in the best interests of corporations to pay a reasonable wage so that workers can afford the products and services offered by the corporations. This is why Ford paid his workers well, so that the company could sell them cars, and fold that money back into the corporation.
VendicarD
5 / 5 (4) Dec 20, 2012
I wasn't aware that being part of the middle class means that you earn a subsistence wage, although that is clearly the goal of the Republican party.

"You just don't get it. It is impossible that everyone be in the middle class in a free society with freedom and competition." - NumenTard

Also if equity is not compatible with freedom and competition then the world needs much less freedom and competition.

VendicarD
5 / 5 (3) Dec 20, 2012
I wonder who' efforts save more lives.

A hospital's janitorial staff, nursing staff, or the doctors that practice inside.

"But no, you quickly find the same "problems" because now since you are paying the guy who sweeps the floor such an amount, you have devalued the dollar..." - NumenTard

Who is worth more?

VendicarD
5 / 5 (3) Dec 20, 2012

"Someone who only sweeps the floor has little intrinsic value to offer." - NumenTard

Usually those who sweep the floor, also change the light bulbs.

Without lighting, how are the office workers going to do their paperwork?

It seems to me that the broom pushers are intrinsic to the operation of almost every business.
VendicarD
5 / 5 (3) Dec 20, 2012
In some states, companies pay their employees the minimum wage of $2.75 an hour.

"Ultimately it is in the best interests of corporations to pay a reasonable wage so that workers can afford the products and services offered by the corporations." - NumenTard

Sickening isn't it?
peter09
5 / 5 (5) Dec 21, 2012
Mmmmm

Companies (in their greed ) seem to have forgotten that there are two sides to the economy. If you pay your employees at low wage rates then they cannot consume, the Demand side of the economy fails and you get a ummm.. yes.. a Recession....

To get out of this Companies should reduce profits etc etc, but today they further squeeze wages and employment... making the situation worse.
kochevnik
2.1 / 5 (9) Dec 21, 2012
Again NAFTA and the Trans Pacific Partnership are all about exporting jobs and importing poverty. But this will weaken America to the point that it can be carved up by foreign interests. I though states would secede but more likely the Chinese will oust the zionists in controlling media and Americans will become Mandarin-muttering zombies. TPP will ban all guns because they don't mix with communism.

Russia would never let it's sovereignty be so violated. America has no spine and no future.
frajo
5 / 5 (5) Dec 21, 2012
If you are unwilling to compete and work hard to advance yourself, you deserve nothing better than minimum wage (which I would abolish).

There's this girl next door with cerebral palsy. You offer her a job in your brothel. She is unwilling to do that work.
And you tell her she doesn't deserve anything better than minimum wage? Or you want to let her starve?
What failed country do you come from? Germany in the thirties?
Noumenon
3 / 5 (16) Dec 21, 2012
If you are unwilling to compete and work hard to advance yourself, you deserve nothing better than minimum wage (which I would abolish).

There's this girl next door with cerebral palsy. You offer her a job in your brothel. She is unwilling to do that work.
And you tell her she doesn't deserve anything better than minimum wage? Or you want to let her starve?
What failed country do you come from? Germany in the thirties?


I support gov assistance for such people. Don't be ridiculous. If you had a meaningful counter point, you wouldn't need a cerebral palsy girl working in a brothel, but would speak of capable workers.
Sean_W
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 22, 2012
Raise the wage of the least skilled and least educated jobs and people in jobs with slightly more skill and training will want more because they spent money and time getting those skills. Same happens with the people above them and so on up the line. Each step of the way the extra labour costs get priced into the products and services that everyone buys. So the value of the currency falls and so the spending power of that increase in wages gets erased. Politicians and labor leaders get to look like they have done something helpful while having done worse than nothing since minimum wages & union rules effectively ban any jobs that are worth less than baseline and force the more skilled workers to take up the slack while students & others entering the job market can't get work because it the jobs they might otherwise get are being priced out of existence. Meanwhile, businesses are pressured to replace labour with automation. The leftists screw the poor & teach them to blame entrepreneurs
FrankHerbert
3 / 5 (10) Dec 22, 2012
The leftists screw the poor & teach them to blame entrepreneurs


At least you used the term entrepreneur and not the reprehensible double-speak "job-creator". I should have given you a 2 instead of a 1, sorry.

Anyone with a brain knows the "job-creators" are the consumers.

Universal welfare, e.g. a minimum income (supported by Hayek and Friedman to name a few), would greatly benefit corporations. It just wouldn't benefit the leeches at the very top, who let's be honest don't need any more benefits.
Lurker2358
3.9 / 5 (7) Dec 22, 2012
You just don't get it. It is impossible that everyone be in the middle class in a free society with freedom and competition. If does not make mathematical or logical sense.


Have you...read...the Declaration of Independence?

You might learn something, because this country was allegedly founded on the notion that it is "self evident that all men are created equal".

It's a damn shame that line, or something like it, didn't find it's way into the constitution until the 13th to 15th amendment.

If you honestly believe executives are worth several hundred thousand to several millions of dollars per year, while the "average Joe or Jane," who actually does the work is worth only 25k to 40k per year, then you're freaking crazy.

Maybe you also approve of multi-millionaire athletes, movie stars, and music artists as well?

Personally, I think everyone should go on a "sports, movies, and music strike" and bankrupt the whole lot of those industries. That would be a start to a solution.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (14) Dec 22, 2012
You might learn something, because this country was allegedly founded on the notion that it is "self evident that all men are created equal" -@Lurker2358


What does that mean to you? All (wo)men should be treated as if they were equal. This does not guarantee equal results, as all men do not have equal capacities, therefore all men have difference value in the market, where such things should play out naturally.

Sean_W post is exactly correct wrt the ultimate meaninglessness of increasing the minimum wage, which is a political ploy to fool know-nothings to vote for them. It's about intrinsic Value, not numerical currency amounts.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (14) Dec 22, 2012
If you honestly believe executives are worth several hundred thousand to several millions of dollars per year, while the "average Joe or Jane," who actually does the work is worth only 25k to 40k per year, then you're freaking crazy.


Would you agree to have surgery by a plumber? Would you invest in a large company run by a bus driver? Don't be silly.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (14) Dec 22, 2012
They are worth what ever someone is willing to pay them,... just as a rare antique is worth whatever one is willing to pay, despite the same thing in form being available at Walmart.
DavidW
1 / 5 (2) Dec 23, 2012
Have you...read...the Declaration of Independence?
You might learn something, because this country was allegedly founded on the notion that it is "self evident that all men are created equal".


Great point and comment, but you missed the most important part. It is not a notion.
It is a truth that we are equal. Any discussion/debate/etc. that avoids the truth is a discussion centered on theory. We cannot change the past and therefore are equal in that we cannot change the past and equal in that we cannot change the truth.

People seem to say anything, from a theoretical standpoint, to insinuate we are not equal in some regard. It is not always clear at first glance where they have made their mistake. Yet, if anyone wishes to state in any way, that we are not equal, they would be lying and attempting to place their own self above the very truth that none of us can change. The truth also says we are all important. Without the truth as the axiom our words are only theories.
DavidW
1 / 5 (2) Dec 23, 2012
"A spirituality that is only private and self-absorbed, one devoid of an authentic political and social consciousness, does little to halt the suicidal juggernaut of history. On the other hand, an activism that is not purified by profound spiritual and psychological self-awareness and rooted in divine truth, wisdom, and compassion will only perpetuate the problem it is trying to solve, however righteous its intentions. When, however, the deepest and most grounded spiritual vision is married to a practical and pragmatic drive to transform all existing political, economic, and social institutions, a holy force - the power of wisdom and love in action - is born. This force I define as Sacred Activism."

- Andrew Harvey

This is why Occupy can't get it done either. Any activism must be rooted in truth or it will only perpetuate the problem it is trying to solve.

ReallyWannaKnow
4.8 / 5 (4) Dec 23, 2012
Comparison of median CEO pay and average worker's pay (in 2008 dollars):

1970: CEO = $1,000,000 Average Joe = $36,280
1980: CEO = $1,400,000 Average Joe = $32,770
1990: CEO = $2,100,000 Average Joe = $29,980
2000: CEO = $4,200,000 Average Joe = $31,270
2008: CEO = $7,300,000 Average Joe = $31,540

Link to chart: http://i55.photob...ison.jpg

Or, to look at it another way, here was the income gap in 1970: http://i55.photob...1970.jpg

And here is the income gap in 2008: http://i55.photob...2008.jpg

Does anyone really believe that the minimum wage is the problem here?
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (15) Dec 23, 2012
Comparison of median CEO pay and average worker's pay (in 2008 dollars):

[..]
2000: CEO = $4,200,000 Average Joe = $31,270
2008: CEO = $7,300,000 Average Joe = $31,540

Does anyone really believe that the minimum wage is the problem here?


What is the point of this post? Everyone knows that, so what?

Average joe is free to educate himself and work to become a CEO, or start his own business.

In a free society, there cannot be any guarantees of equal income. In fact the entire "income inequality" issue is entirely invented by emotional liberals that don't understand how economies function in a free society.

If you want communism move to such a country, ...otherwise learn that 'income inequality' is not only NOT a problem, but is absolutely and fundamentally an intrinsic necessity for free market economies to function, and is on accord with evolutionary mechanisms.
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (15) Dec 23, 2012
,... you have already been told above by me and others that you can even raise the minimum wage by a factor of 10, and ultimately it will not make any essential difference. Intrinsic value of services will seek their natural place (like water) irrespective of liberal do-gooder generosity.

VendicarD
4 / 5 (4) Dec 23, 2012
Moronic.

"Average joe is free to educate himself and work to become a CEO, or start his own business." - NumenTard

The average business exists primarily because of luck, and secondarily as a result of dishonesty, and thirdly and lastly as a result of work.

I have never seen a business that was honest either with it's customers, or with it's parent corporation, and I have seen many.

Government regulation on business is primarily driven out of a need to force businesses to be honest.

Work is essential... Yes. But then so is working at winning a lottery.

Any other view on this matter is nothing but moronic self deception.

VendicarD
5 / 5 (1) Dec 23, 2012
Yes, I said essentially the same thing at the beginning of this thread.

Apparently you didn't read it.

"you have already been told above by me and others that you can even raise the minimum wage by a factor of 10, and ultimately it will not make any essential difference." - NumenTard

However in the intervening years there is a benefit as the minimum wage change occurs now and prices rise slowly in retaliation.

This is not to say that this is a good solution to the problem of low wages. But in some backward U.S. states where the minimum wage is $2.75 an hour it does provide a legal means to prevent businesses from creating a slave labor force.

The minimum wage should of course be tied to the index of inflation and adjusted yearly.
VendicarD
3 / 5 (2) Dec 23, 2012
Corporate wages up by 700 percent.
Personal wages down 14 percent.

"What is the point of this post? Everyone knows that, so what?" - NumenTard

Conservative economic policies certainly have been very bad for the American people.

That is what..
kochevnik
2.3 / 5 (6) Dec 23, 2012
Average joe is free to educate himself and work to become a CEO, or start his own business.
USA is ranked the worst place in the developed world to start a business
VendicarD
3 / 5 (2) Dec 23, 2012
A perfect characteristic that shows why absolutely free societies are undesirable.

"In a free society, there cannot be any guarantees of equal income" - NumenTard

In other words, your "free society" is actually a slave state.

You can't think very clearly can you, NumenTard?
VendicarD
3 / 5 (2) Dec 23, 2012
The Enemy speaks...

"income inequality' is not only NOT a problem, but is absolutely and fundamentally an intrinsic necessity for free market economies to function." - NumenTard

Which is why only absolute fools demand a free market economy.
VendicarD
1 / 5 (1) Dec 23, 2012
Did occupy actually have a goal?

To me it's purpose was completely nebulous.

"This is why Occupy can't get it done either. Any activism must be rooted in truth or it will only perpetuate the problem it is trying to solve." - DavidW

Nebulous... Hence it's failure.
VendicarD
5 / 5 (1) Dec 23, 2012
Yes, indeed. The natural place in the U.S. is for money grubbing to have more value than parenting, with the natural result being both parents working and children being left to raise themselves.

The destruction of American society has been the result.

"Intrinsic value of services will seek their natural place" - NumenTard

The destruction of the American State due to free market economics is entirely natural and entirely predictable.

It is a very good thing indeed. Don't you agree, NumenTard?
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (14) Dec 23, 2012
A perfect characteristic that shows why absolutely free societies are undesirable.

"In a free society, there cannot be any guarantees of equal income" - NumenTard

In other words, your "free society" is actually a slave state.

You can't think very clearly can you, NumenTard?


No, my free society is one people desire to join from around the world, apparently even borderline commies like you.

The minimum wage should be abolished entirely.

"income inequality' is not only NOT a problem, but is absolutely and fundamentally an intrinsic necessity for free market economies to function." - Noumenon
Which is why only absolute fools demand a free market economy.


It is why free market economies have created the greatest wealth and increase in standards of living, in human history,.. and why it is the most desirable country to be in. That you deny this plain fact about the USA, shows you're fundamentally dishonest.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (12) Dec 23, 2012
Which is why only absolute fools demand a free market economy.- Venditard


"I believe deeply that the free market is the greatest force for economic progress in human history" - President Barack Obama

Even the far leftist Obama disagrees with you.

The opinion of one not living in the USA, is not really relevant, and in your case, not remotely accurate. If you do reside in this country, why with such vitriol? There is no chance that your mentality will ever gain meaningful representation here. Leave, hypocrite.

Those relying on the minimum wage, and thus dependence upon the government in order to avoid entering the labour market, have not earned middle class status by offering any intrinsic value to the economy.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B. Franklin
FrankHerbert
3.7 / 5 (6) Dec 23, 2012
In a free society, there cannot be any guarantees of equal income. In fact the entire "income inequality" issue is entirely invented by emotional liberals that don't understand how economies function in a free society.


Lol, so Chicago school economists are now "emotional liberals that don't understand how economies function in a free society?"

The opinion of one not living in the USA, is not really relevant

Chauvinist.

Even the far leftist Obama disagrees with you.

Don't you mean milquetoast right-centrist?

Those relying on the minimum wage, and thus dependence upon the government in order to avoid entering the labour market

So those working the worst jobs in society are "[avoiding] the labour[sic] market." God, you're dumb.
Noumenon
2.8 / 5 (11) Dec 23, 2012
In a free society, there cannot be any guarantees of equal income. In fact the entire "income inequality" issue is entirely invented by emotional liberals that don't understand how economies function in a free society.
Lol, so Chicago school economists are now "emotional liberals that don't understand how economies function in a free society?"


If they are saying that it is a problem to be fixed in a free labour market, then yes. It is a non-problem. Many economist say that raising the minimum wage will cause loss of jobs. Do you disagree with that?
FrankHerbert
3.3 / 5 (4) Dec 23, 2012
labour


You're obviously not an American so your opinion is irrelevant.
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (11) Dec 23, 2012
Those relying on the minimum wage, and thus dependence upon the government in order to avoid entering the labour market have not earned middle class status by offering any intrinsic value to the economy.
So those working the worst jobs in society are "[avoiding] the labour[sic] market.


Never said that. Try understanding what you read. I said those who "RELY ON....", in other words, those who are content with, and so don't try to get off of minimum wage. 'Labour' is a correct way of spelling that word where I come from.

labour
You're obviously not an American so your opinion is irrelevant.


I said,...

The opinion of one not living in the USA, is not really relevant


I live in the USA.
FrankHerbert
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 23, 2012
'Labour' is a correct way of spelling that word where I come from.


No, wrong. You aren't American and you've been outted as an emotional European. Go kowtow to fascism Pierre.
Noumenon
2.1 / 5 (15) Dec 23, 2012
'Labour' is a correct way of spelling that word where I come from.


No, wrong. You aren't American and you've been outted as an emotional European. Go kowtow to fascism Pierre.


I'm wrong about what? I'm entirely rational and logical. Liberals are bed-wetting hysterical reactionaries.

There is fascism in liberal progressivism but none in libertarianism.
FrankHerbert
3.4 / 5 (5) Dec 23, 2012
Pierre, obviously your emotions are clouding your judgment. If you were a real American you would understand why your opinion doesn't matter.

I'm entirely rational and logical. Conservatives are bed-wetting hysterical reactionaries.

There is fascism in conservativism/libertarianism but none in liberalism.

QED Frenchie.
VendicarD
5 / 5 (3) Dec 23, 2012
Oh, I escaped the collapsing American state decades ago when it became obvious that the immorality and self destructive nature of free market fundamentalism would destroy that nation.

"No, my free society is one people desire to join from around the world, apparently even borderline commies like you." - NumenTard

Is that why mexicans are leaving the U.S. in large numbers?

VendicarD
5 / 5 (3) Dec 23, 2012
Pretty much everything. Including your assertion on another thread that Gay's must be ugly.

"I'm wrong about what?" - NumenTard

I always get a particular kick out of ConservaTards on one hand claiming that a free market must be established in America, implying that one does not exist there, while in the next breath proclaiming that free markets (something you just claimed don't exist), have produce the most wealth the world has seen.

Make up your mind Tardie Boy.
VendicarD
5 / 5 (5) Dec 23, 2012
There is fascism in conservativism/libertarianism but none in liberalism." - FrankHerbert

Indeed. It is the collusion of government and corporations that is the heart of socialism, a view that is shared with Conservatives, Libertarians and Randite vermin.

"Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power." - Benito Mussolini
VendicarD
5 / 5 (2) Dec 23, 2012
"I live in the USA." - NumenTard

But you aren't American. So by your own ideology, your opinions are irrelevant.

Did you vote in the last presidential election?

FrankHerbert
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 23, 2012
But you aren't American.

The converted are always the most fervent.
VendicarD
5 / 5 (2) Dec 23, 2012
"Would you agree to have surgery by a plumber?" - NumenTard

You mean someone like "Joe the plumber" who the Republicans held up as a genius of Republican thought?

Unlike Joe the Plumber, does your hypothetical plumber have any surgical credentials?

"Would you invest in a large company run by a bus driver?" - NumenTard.

What you are really asking is if I would have any confidence that a bus driver would have the ability to run a company.

Yes, I would, since running a company is largely a matter of delegating tasks and then going out to have a million dollar lunch with the mistress.

I think a bus driver can handle that.

Don't you?

VendicarD
5 / 5 (3) Dec 23, 2012
In your foolishness, you have just made Bernie Madoff smile from his prison cell.

"They are worth what ever someone is willing to pay them" - NumenTard

Maddoff was worth every penny they were paying him - by your definition of worth.

VendicarD
3 / 5 (2) Dec 23, 2012
Did you vote in the last presidential election?

"I live in the USA." - NumenTard

Or are your opinions irrelevant as a non-American?

Curious minds want to know.

Osiris1
5 / 5 (3) Dec 23, 2012
All this postulating about unions. When unions were first formed, labor was in far worse shape! Unions came about not out of polite niceties.

Unions were formed out of blood and iron!

Economic force was brought down on unions, and legal too thru the Sherman Anti Trust Act in the 1800s that was first directed at trusts but found in the Supreme Court to be unenforceable against trusts. However the same court found it to be effective against unions and union organizers. Thousands of organizers went to jail for Sherman ATA for 'conspiring to raise their wages' and similar tripe. It was only through strikes and labor discipline that unions forced their way...did I say FORCEd their way onto the American scene. Politics went hand in hand with unionization then and will do so now. We are BACK into the axe handle, nightstick, shotgun and 30-30 era. Only now it will be far deadlier! American citizens vs foreigners of alien religions = no mercy, fill jails, blood in the streets.
Feldagast
2.6 / 5 (5) Dec 23, 2012
Oh, I escaped the collapsing American state decades ago when it became obvious that the immorality and self destructive nature of free market fundamentalism would destroy that nation.

"No, my free society is one people desire to join from around the world, apparently even borderline commies like you." - NumenTard

Is that why mexicans are leaving the U.S. in large numbers?


So your opinions also doesn't matter since you don't live here either.
VendicarD
3 / 5 (2) Dec 24, 2012
"So your opinions also doesn't matter since you don't live here either." - Feldagast

That is NumenTard's contention, not mine.

VendicarD
1 / 5 (1) Dec 24, 2012
Bring it.
Bring it now.
Civil War is coming to the enemy of mankind.

"Only now it will be far deadlier! American citizens vs foreigners of alien religions = no mercy, fill jails, blood in the streets." - Osiris1
Noumenon
1.7 / 5 (11) Dec 24, 2012
You aren't American and you've been outted as an emotional European. Go kowtow to fascism Pierre. - FrankHerbert [sick]
There is fascism in liberal progressivism but none in libertarianism.- Noumenon

There is fascism in conservativism/libertarianism but none in liberalism.- FrankHerbert [sick]


Since libertarianism seeks to limit government and preserve liberty, while liberal progressivism seeks to expand government and the nanny state, you are simply factually wrong.

I escaped the collapsing American state decades ago when it became obvious that the immorality and self destructive nature of free market fundamentalism would destroy that nation. - Ventardican


Everyone knows that the free market system is what created the greatest of economies ever to have been established on this planet,.. and yet you continue with this type of wild counterfactual fantasy. I can't possible take you seriously.
FrankHerbert
3.2 / 5 (5) Dec 24, 2012
Since libertarianism seeks to limit government and preserve liberty, while liberal progressivism seeks to expand government and the nanny state, you are simply factually wrong.


That's nothing more than fascist propaganda. Go crawl back in your hole.
VendicarD
5 / 5 (2) Dec 25, 2012
What the Fascists said... Slightly rephrased for the current generation...

"Since libertarianism seeks to limit government and preserve liberty, while liberal progressivism seeks to expand government and the nanny state, you are simply factually wrong." - NumenTard
kochevnik
3 / 5 (6) Dec 25, 2012
"Since libertarianism seeks to limit government [for private citizens] and preserve liberty [for corporations]..." - NumenTard
VendicarD
4 / 5 (4) Dec 25, 2012
What amuses me about Tea-Publican fascists is that the majority of them are so stupid that they don't even know that they take their name "tea-bagger" from a protest against Corporate largess, Corporate excesses in power, and tax cuts for those Corporations.

http://www.youtub...amp;NR=1

Clearly the tea party is a party for dim whits, losers, and Racists.
VendicarD
5 / 5 (2) Dec 25, 2012
Republican's can't get elected without fraud & treason.

http://www.youtub...ndscreen
Noumenon
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 28, 2012
You aren't American and you've been outted as an emotional European. Go kowtow to fascism Pierre. - FrankHerbert [sick]
There is fascism in liberal progressivism but none in libertarianism.- Noumenon
There is fascism in conservativism/libertarianism but none in liberalism.- FrankHerbert [sick]
Since libertarianism seeks to limit government and preserve liberty, while liberal progressivism seeks to expand government and the nanny state, you are simply factually wrong.
That's nothing more than fascist propaganda. Go crawl back in your hole. - FH


"Socialism can be put into practice only by methods of which most socialists disapprove..... the old socialists parties [Germany] were inhibited by their democratic ideals." - F. Hayek

Fascism naturally evolved from the only means of implementing socialism resoundingly, and competed with communism for the same mentality.
frajo
5 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2013
If you are unwilling to compete and work hard to advance yourself, you deserve nothing better than minimum wage (which I would abolish).

There's this girl next door with cerebral palsy. You offer her a job in your brothel. She is unwilling to do that work.
And you tell her she doesn't deserve anything better than minimum wage? Or you want to let her starve?

I support gov assistance for such people.
You mean your statement did not convey your true opinion? Or did you just now make up a group you call "such people" because I reminded you of them?
If you had a meaningful counter point, you wouldn't need a cerebral palsy girl working in a brothel, but would speak of capable workers.
Why should I speak of capable workers if you didn't?
frajo
5 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2013
Everyone knows that the free market system is what created the greatest of economies ever to have been established on this planet ...

So neither the genocide against the native people nor the theft of their land nor the historical crime of systematically enslaving people from Africa had anything to do with the creation of "the greatest of economies"?

What makes you need these fantasies of grandeur around you?
What makes you abhor emotions so much?
It's the same pattern old Germans showed who refused to think about their convictions they had before and during WW2.
Czcibor
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 06, 2013
Comparison of median CEO pay and average worker's pay (in 2008 dollars):

1970: CEO = $1,000,000 Average Joe = $36,280
1980: CEO = $1,400,000 Average Joe = $32,770
1990: CEO = $2,100,000 Average Joe = $29,980
2000: CEO = $4,200,000 Average Joe = $31,270
2008: CEO = $7,300,000 Average Joe = $31,540

Link to chart: http://i55.photob...ison.jpg

Does anyone really believe that the minimum wage is the problem here?


Yes, the sallaries of top managers are an example of market failure. The... shareholders got rip off.

(Yes, seriously I mean that. If there was better control of shareholders such managment sallaries wouldn't be so impressive. It would be nice if there was some simple law to fix that, but it would be a subject of regulation concerning shareholders meeting)

But that would not solve the problem of pay stagnation of bottom jobs. The main source of the problem is global, inexpensive competition.
Czcibor
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 06, 2013
Article:
[quote]If you organize one employer at a time, they will not be able to compete so you have to organize across many firms at the same time in a labor market in order to bring wages and conditions up.[/quote]

It's nice that even trade unions see that their existence might have some minor drawback for the economy. But less analyse further - what in unlucky case that they compete against someone outside of the US?